Girls leaving that caused the groups to go poof.

[franjoy56]

It is true that through fault of their status in the group or sheer bad timing that certain girls who left the group while at its peak would cause the group to go belly up cases in point

Florence Ballards leaving in 1967 caused a downfall of records sales from 67 through 69.

Betty Kelly leaving the Vandellas caused its last top ten single "Jimmy Mack" "Honey Chille recorded in 1967 was released after Betty left and it only hit #11. their last top twenty single with Lois Reeves.

Gladys Horton leaving the Marvelettes in 1967 as noted on tvone caused the group to unravel, its last top ten was released in 1966 DMWB before Gladys left even though she was not the lead singer, after she left the group recorded no more top ten pop hits: Hunter #13, YAIL #23 MBMBAM #17 though the records did better on the r&b charts.

And Finally after Cindy Birdsong left the Supremes in 1972 they had recorded their last top 20 single with her on bcg vocals. their popularity was vastly affected with her departure. .Unfortunatley with her replacement no more top hits would ensue, although Scherrie would chart a top 40 hit in 1976 for the group.

[BigAl]

Interesting point, Frances, and I suspect there's much truth to it. I do believe however, that the departure of a non-lead group member was probably only one of many factors precipitating a loss of popularity for these groups. Usually, when a member leaves, there's been some discord within the group itself, usually discord which has been brewing for quite some time, and the eventual shake-up reverberates across the board. When Florence was canned, The Supremes morphed into DRATS — a very different act which appealed more and more to an older, non-record buying, non-top-40-listening audience. When Betty left The Vandellas, Martha's surname was added to the official group name, and in addition, trouble was brewing between Martha and Roz. When Gladys left The Marvelettes, Wanda was starting to lose it. It's my guess that, when these sorts of things would happen, the Motown brass would start scrambling to do a quick-save and in panic would start trying some more tactically radical things, musically and promotionally, which perhaps were not so well thought-out. When these measures didn't do the trick right away, the higher-ups often would just stop trying to promote the groups and looked on them as being washed up, and whatever discord caused the firing or resignation of a member, was never really corrected sufficiently. Showbiz is famously devoid of real loyalty and when the cash registers stop chinging, even for a relatively short time, the bosses just move on to something else.

[skooldem1]

Flo leaving the group didn't have much of an impact. The big loss was losing HDH. The quality of the songs released except for a couple of monster hits, was simply not as good as the earlier hits.

[jobeterob]

In Tarraborelli's book on Michael Jackson, he says the truth is that lead singers leaving almost always cause the group to go poof; at best they'll limp along a couple of years with a few hits and then they are gone; and he refers to Diana Ross, Michael Jackson, Smokey Robinson and of course, later, Lionel Richie.

He also says the groups generally will complain about promotion, management, the record company etc., but they never look at themselves.

[captainjames]

In Tarraborelli's book on Michael Jackson, he says the truth is that lead singers leaving almost always cause the group to go poof; at best they'll limp along a couple of years with a few hits and then they are gone; and he refers to Diana Ross, Michael Jackson, Smokey Robinson and of course, later, Lionel Richie.

He also says the groups generally will complain about promotion, management, the record company etc., but they never look at themselves.

I would have to agree with this.

[Motown Eddie]

Flo leaving the group didn't have much of an impact. The big loss was losing HDH. The quality of the songs released except for a couple of monster hits, was simply not as good as the earlier hits.

That's correct. Except for "Love Child", "I'm Livin' In Shame" &"Someday We'll Be Together", the quality of the material that Diana Ross & The Supremes released just didn't have the same appeal after Holland-Dozier-Holland left Motown. Also, the general public accepted the explanation that Motown brass gave for Flo's departure and accepted Cindy Birdsong in the group.

[skooldem1]

That's correct. Except for "Love Child", "I'm Livin' In Shame" &"Someday We'll Be Together", the quality of the material that Diana Ross & The Supremes released just didn't have the same appeal after Holland-Dozier-Holland left Motown. Also, the general public accepted the explanation that Motown brass gave for Flo's departure and accepted Cindy Birdsong in the group.

There was also the huge hit "I'm gonna make you love me".

[Motown Eddie]

Betty Kelly leaving the Vandellas caused its last top ten single "Jimmy Mack" "Honey Chille recorded in 1967 was released after Betty left and it only hit #11. their last top twenty single with Lois Reeves.



Betty Kelly's departure from Martha Reeves & the Vandellas in 1967 had nothing to do with their record sales. Just like The Supremes, Martha & Co. did their best work with Holland-Dozier-Holland and were just as affected when H-D-H left Motown.

[Motown Eddie]

There was also the huge hit "I'm gonna make you love me".

You're right, I forgot to include "I'm Gonna Make You Love Me" as one of the big post- HDH hits.

[Motown Eddie]

Gladys Horton leaving the Marvelettes in 1967 as noted on tvone caused the group to unravel, its last top ten was released in 1966 DMWB before Gladys left even though she was not the lead singer, after she left the group recorded no more top ten pop hits: Hunter #13, YAIL #23 MBMBAM #17 though the records did better on the r&b charts.



Since it's acknowledged the Gladys Horton was the "driving force" of The Marvelettes, her departure [[along with Wanda Rodgers problems) helped cause the eventual downfall of the group.

[RossHolloway]

How do you explain The Temptations success after David Ruffin was kicked out of the group?

[captainjames]

I remember when David left and no offense but we still had Eddie, Melvin and Paul and it was just different with the male groups. Eddie, Melvin and Paul were leads.

[Motown Eddie]

How do you explain The Temptations success after David Ruffin was kicked out of the group?

1. David Ruffin's replacement in The Temptations, Dennis Edwards, was a powerful singer in his own right and he made a great impression on fans.
2. The songs The Temps recorded during this time, "Cloud Nine", "I Can't Get Next To You", "Just My Imagination" and so on, was outstanding [[and all these songs and others during this time became major hits for The Tempts).
3. The Tempts still had Motown's full attention when it came to promotion during that time so the general public never lost sight of the group.
4. And even when The Tempts were struggling with internal problems, Melvin Franklin & Otis Williams emerged as the driving force behind the group.

[Motown Eddie]

I remember when David left and no offense but we still had Eddie, Melvin and Paul and it was just different with the male groups. Eddie, Melvin and Paul were leads.
That's true as well. As said by Otis Williams, The Tempts had five members and any one of them could take the 'lead vocal' on a song [[and when it came time to replace anyone in the group, The Tempts would find someone who sang in the mold set by Eddie Kendricks [[Damon Harris & Ron Tyson), Paul Williams [[Richard Street), David Ruffin [[Dennis Edwards & Ali-Ollie Woodson) & Melvin Franklin [[Harry McGilberry).

[smark21]

Gladys Horton leaving the Marvelettes had a serious adverse impact on The Marvelettes as I’ve read the brass at Motown always considered the group Gladys’ group, even after Wanda took most of the leads on the A sides. Wanda was in no position to assume a leadership position and from what I’ve read Motown management really didn’t pay much attention to Katherine when she appealed for help in dealing with Wanda.

As for The Supremes, I think it was the revolving door of producers that did them in not the revolving door of members. HDH departure hurt them. Frank Wilson managed to stabilize matters to an extent, then after Touch, he was out and they went from Smokey to Jimmy Webb to Stevie Wonder in just over a year. Hard to nail down a distinct sound working with such various producers/songwriters.

[stephanie]

I have always felt that Im Gonna Make you Love Me could have been a hit for just the Temps with or without Diana, Mary and Cindy. When I read the Andantes book I was shocked to learn that the Andantes were on there as well which I really dont think they needed them but need I say more. I think when Ronnie moved in with Spector the Ronettes were over.

One flip side of this is when Bonnie left the Pointer Sisters they got even bigger!

[Glenpwood]

If we use the logic that Bonnie Pointer leaving the group made the Pointer Sisters huge I guess we all need to thank Barbara Martin for leaving The Supremes....

I dont get everyone saying DRATS was a vastly different act compared to The Supremes with Flo. Theres more standards albums from the years Flo was in the group than the DrATS era and her big solo was from a white musical, Funny Girl, which she reccomended for the group so its not like they were the embodiment of Black Power until her dismissal. Berry was always clear in his vision of the Motown Sound appealing to everyone, not just one race or part of the population. The Supremes sound just happen to pack a mass appeal for all audiences. Granted most any of the artists on the label couldve pulled it off to some extent surely but Berry bet the house on Diana Mary and Flo. Pretty much all the A List Motown acts did standards or showtunes albums with only The Marvelettes and Vandellas not getting the shot. [[Although I believe they should have.) I rarely see anyone calling out Marvin Gaye or the Tops for selling out but the girls always get called out for Funny Girl or Rodgers & Hart. DRATS suffered mostly post Flo from the loss of HDH and never finding the right fit of an ongoing production team until Frank Wilson came along to unify the sound for the Temps duets and the beginning Terrell years not because they were playing Vegas and doing the Thoroughly Modern Millie medley. They even tried doing the non supper club dates without the gowns to seem contemporary to the younger crowd and those fans complained they werent in the gowns they were paying to see! A lot of the acts mentioned in the original post suffered more from lack of promotion, musical shifts in public taste, and internal strife than one backup singer leaving causing the public to walk away. Every artist or group eventually hits a wall with the public or radio, whether it comes from age, taste, or material. Some like Diana, Stevie, and Smokey, get twenty years, others got only a couple years. Its not always fair or right but it happens every week with every new Billboard chart. When someone new debuts another older act gets less attention or disappears. Its up to us fans to remember them and support them when they get new product out or go on tour, not worry about the moment so and so quit since the past cannot be changed.....

[marv2]

Yeah, well all I know....is the facts! Once Mary Wilson left the Supremes the whole franchise shut down! They went on without a missing a beat [[at first ) when Diane left the group.

[marv2]

When Florence left, the whole dynamic of the Supremes sound changed for the worst. They became too homogenized sounding, bland sounding. Flo's voice gave them that spark!

[marv2]

and don't forget Ray Davis from P-Funk who replaced Melvin at one time.

[marv2]

I wouldn't be too quick to give ALL of the credit to H-D-H [[and I love them) and thrown the artists under bus. Not everything H-D-H produced at Invictus Records/Hot Wax turned to gold........

[franjoy56]

I have always felt that Im Gonna Make you Love Me could have been a hit for just the Temps with or without Diana, Mary and Cindy. When I read the Andantes book I was shocked to learn that the Andantes were on there as well which I really dont think they needed them but need I say more. I think when Ronnie moved in with Spector the Ronettes were over.

One flip side of this is when Bonnie left the Pointer Sisters they got even bigger!
HDH certainly had an effect on the record sales when they left Motown and for the most part it happened just as Betty, Flo, for the Vandellas and Supremes were leaving those acts, and Gladys was leaving the Marvelettes all in 1967, HDH left right after these girls left with HDH wanting more money and the girls with conflicts of interests..
Yes the andantes are on IGMULM they also claim to be on the Magnificent 7 album, but Mary and Cindy are on both productions for the Tempts and Four tops as well, another interesting point after Gladys, Flo and Betty Kelly left their groups the andantes were used almost exclusively on the Supremes, Vandellas and Marvelettes records 1967 seemed to be a chain reaction for events. Ironically after Frank Wilson ceased producing the 70's Supremes Cindy Birdsong was ready to jump ship due to her preganancy and another chain reaction post "Floy Joy" was on its way.

[jobeterob]

It's astonishing that the Andantes would have been needed on I'm Gonna Make You Love Me when you have so many voices available. But all that was really needed was the lead voices of Diana and Eddie fluffed up with some others.

In the end, the lead voice was critical but it was a shame they released a 45 edit of Stop in the Name of Love leaving off the Supremes and substituting the Andantes; I'm not sure what it accomplished in the end; it pissed off fans when they found out; hurt the feelings of the Supremes back in 1965 I'm sure. And the sound isn't significantly better or different than if the 45 had the Supremes on it.

[stingbeelee]

No jobeterob, absolutely not.
All of the records, session books, session logs and notations all have stated that the three people singing on Stop! In The Name of Love were Diana, Mary and Flo.
What you are either believing or want to believe is that two compilers forty years later listen to the record and determine it to be the Andantes. They stated they did not look at logs, notes, session records or anything like that; they just know it to be true.
So the people who were there and wrote down who sung it were incorrect? The people who take account of all the singers, musicians, producers and etc. and who recorded the information from 1965 were incorrect?
I am a long time member of this forum. I do not post often, because I tend to be a quiet person who does not like a lot of arguments and etc. But this assertion on Stop! In the name of Love actually begins to destroy the legacy of the Supremes.
We on this forum [[mostly) love the Supremes and believe them to be one of the greatest rock and roll groups of all time, and they are acknowledged as being - in the 60's - second only to the Beatles, and yet people will come on this forum and state that their records only sold a half a million for this one and a half a million for that one and etc. Others will come on and say Diana couldn't do whatever and Mary and Flo were dispensable and etc.
To me, a great deal of it is due to the fact people are angry that Motown is the most recognizable record company in the world, the Supremes are the greatest female group ever and that, for the most part, it was sucessful.
Sorry for the rant! I am not personally attacking jobeterob or any other member of this forum.

[antceleb12]

No jobeterob, absolutely not.
All of the records, session books, session logs and notations all have stated that the three people singing on Stop! In The Name of Love were Diana, Mary and Flo.
What you are either believing or want to believe is that two compilers forty years later listen to the record and determine it to be the Andantes. They stated they did not look at logs, notes, session records or anything like that; they just know it to be true.
So the people who were there and wrote down who sung it were incorrect? The people who take account of all the singers, musicians, producers and etc. and who recorded the information from 1965 were incorrect?
I am a long time member of this forum. I do not post often, because I tend to be a quiet person who does not like a lot of arguments and etc. But this assertion on Stop! In the name of Love actually begins to destroy the legacy of the Supremes.
We on this forum [[mostly) love the Supremes and believe them to be one of the greatest rock and roll groups of all time, and they are acknowledged as being - in the 60's - second only to the Beatles, and yet people will come on this forum and state that their records only sold a half a million for this one and a half a million for that one and etc. Others will come on and say Diana couldn't do whatever and Mary and Flo were dispensable and etc.
To me, a great deal of it is due to the fact people are angry that Motown is the most recognizable record company in the world, the Supremes are the greatest female group ever and that, for the most part, it was sucessful.
Sorry for the rant! I am not personally attacking jobeterob or any other member of this forum.

Those logs probably didn't list the Andantes because they were usually added after the original vocals were added. Also, how can you listen to "Stop!" and tell me that those background vocals sound ANYTHING like Florence and Mary? Listen to the first version [[found on the Box Set, or "More Hits - Expanded") and you can hear the difference between Flo/Mary and the Andantes. That exact sound can be heard on tracks of other artists: "How Sweet It Is," "I'm Ready for Love," "Love Makes Me Do Foolish Things," "Baby, I Need Your Lovin'" [[yes, they were used with male groups, as well).

As for "IGMYLM," they probably used the Andantes because the number of Temptations outnumbered the number of Supremes, so they probably added them to boost the girls' parts.

[skooldem1]

I thought we had concluded that there are a few versions of "Stop". Indeed, Mary and Florence can be heard on most versions. It just so happened that the version that was nominated for a Grammy was the version with the Andantes. Something like that only matters to trivia buffs. I don't see why people are getting upset. Yes, Diana, Mary, and Florence all recorded "Stop". That was never in dispute.

[marv2]

It's astonishing that the Andantes would have been needed on I'm Gonna Make You Love Me when you have so many voices available. But all that was really needed was the lead voices of Diana and Eddie fluffed up with some others.

In the end, the lead voice was critical but it was a shame they released a 45 edit of Stop in the Name of Love leaving off the Supremes and substituting the Andantes; I'm not sure what it accomplished in the end; it pissed off fans when they found out; hurt the feelings of the Supremes back in 1965 I'm sure. And the sound isn't significantly better or different than if the 45 had the Supremes on it.

You are wrong again as usual. The Supremes [[Mary, Diane and Flo) are the ones singing on "Stop In the Name of Love" your beloved Andantes must have left Dodge when the Supremes and HDH were recording it.

"I'm Gonna Make You Love Me" has all three Supremes and all five Temptations singing on it. If the Andantes were there, they weren't needed for much. Also you left out Otis Williams' lead part on the record.

[marv2]

No jobeterob, absolutely not.
All of the records, session books, session logs and notations all have stated that the three people singing on Stop! In The Name of Love were Diana, Mary and Flo.
What you are either believing or want to believe is that two compilers forty years later listen to the record and determine it to be the Andantes. They stated they did not look at logs, notes, session records or anything like that; they just know it to be true.
So the people who were there and wrote down who sung it were incorrect? The people who take account of all the singers, musicians, producers and etc. and who recorded the information from 1965 were incorrect?
I am a long time member of this forum. I do not post often, because I tend to be a quiet person who does not like a lot of arguments and etc. But this assertion on Stop! In the name of Love actually begins to destroy the legacy of the Supremes.
We on this forum [[mostly) love the Supremes and believe them to be one of the greatest rock and roll groups of all time, and they are acknowledged as being - in the 60's - second only to the Beatles, and yet people will come on this forum and state that their records only sold a half a million for this one and a half a million for that one and etc. Others will come on and say Diana couldn't do whatever and Mary and Flo were dispensable and etc.
To me, a great deal of it is due to the fact people are angry that Motown is the most recognizable record company in the world, the Supremes are the greatest female group ever and that, for the most part, it was sucessful.
Sorry for the rant! I am not personally attacking jobeterob or any other member of this forum.

Mary Wilson said that she is on that record. So were Florence and Diane. I believe her first and Jobeterob never.

[marv2]

Those logs probably didn't list the Andantes because they were usually added after the original vocals were added. Also, how can you listen to "Stop!" and tell me that those background vocals sound ANYTHING like Florence and Mary? Listen to the first version [[found on the Box Set, or "More Hits - Expanded") and you can hear the difference between Flo/Mary and the Andantes. That exact sound can be heard on tracks of other artists: "How Sweet It Is," "I'm Ready for Love," "Love Makes Me Do Foolish Things," "Baby, I Need Your Lovin'" [[yes, they were used with male groups, as well).

As for "IGMYLM," they probably used the Andantes because the number of Temptations outnumbered the number of Supremes, so they probably added them to boost the girls' parts.

I heard the acapella version and I only hear Diane, Mary and Florence singing.

[thisoldheart]

i would say h/d/h's departure was the single most disruptive act to happen at motown. but it was equally hard on h/d/h. they never really recovered either. the well oiled motown machine needed all of its parts to run [[including the andantes, where would the tops have been w/o them!)

[antceleb12]

Flo & Mary do sing on "Stop!" but the Andantes were added in later. The "baby, baby"'s in the verse are only Flo & Mary, but the choruses are the Supremes + Andantes. There is a low sound that does not belong to Florence or Mary.

[antceleb12]

I heard the acapella version and I only hear Diane, Mary and Florence singing.

I have, too, but the sound on the first version and the sound on the single version doesn't sound the same.

[jobeterob]

I have, too, but the sound on the first version and the sound on the single version doesn't sound the same.

The Supremes got wiped for the single version and replaced with the Andantes.

Read the liner notes for the Complete Singles.

George and Andy have said so a dozen times.

Some people can't accept it, don't like it, can't explain, don't understand it...............but, it's what they say happened.

[marv2]

The Supremes got wiped for the single version and replaced with the Andantes.

Read the liner notes for the Complete Singles.

George and Andy have said so a dozen times.

Some people can't accept it, don't like it, can't explain, don't understand it...............but, it's what they say happened.

Look! Didn't we go over this earlier this year? Until Lamont Dozier, Eddie Holland, Brian Holland, Mary Wilson and Diana Ross [[they were all there) tell me that they are not on that record, then they are on that record! Case closed as far as I am concerned.

[floyjoy678]

I'm with antceleb, it's Mary and Flo in the back with the Andantes. You can definitely hear Flo's distinctive voice come through on the "Think It Over"s. Once I heard that acapella version I knew it wasn't just Mary and Flo, in fact during the chorus it sounds like more than 5 voices singing back there.

And I know a lot of people like to say "Well compare the studio version to a live version"...come on really? Every single song the Supremes sang live sounded different from the studio version.

Back to the original topic on a more recent note, when Geri Haliwell [[spelling?) left the Spice Girls they died down very quickly.

[Bokiluis]

I have always felt that Im Gonna Make you Love Me could have been a hit for just the Temps with or without Diana, Mary and Cindy. When I read the Andantes book I was shocked to learn that the Andantes were on there as well which I really dont think they needed them but need I say more. I think when Ronnie moved in with Spector the Ronettes were over.

One flip side of this is when Bonnie left the Pointer Sisters they got even bigger!

I think it was actually the chemistry between Diana and Eddie that made "I'm Gonna Make You Love Me" so special. And on the original boxset celebrating Motown's first 10 years, I believe it was, with 5 disc, Diana says that the ad libs between the two groups, Diana Ross and The Supremes and The Temptations, also made for an exciting recording. The Temptations did do a version sans Diana Ross and The Supremes on Ed Sullivan that is commercially available still, and to me, the lack of The Supremes does make it less appealing. [[Though The Temptations were in the zone during that period and almost anything they released became a hit, so who knows......I just much prefer the interaction between Diana and Eddie).

[marybrewster]

It is true that through fault of their status in the group or sheer bad timing that certain girls who left the group while at its peak would cause the group to go belly up cases in point

Florence Ballards leaving in 1967 caused a downfall of records sales from 67 through 69.

Betty Kelly leaving the Vandellas caused its last top ten single "Jimmy Mack" "Honey Chille recorded in 1967 was released after Betty left and it only hit #11. their last top twenty single with Lois Reeves.

Gladys Horton leaving the Marvelettes in 1967 as noted on tvone caused the group to unravel, its last top ten was released in 1966 DMWB before Gladys left even though she was not the lead singer, after she left the group recorded no more top ten pop hits: Hunter #13, YAIL #23 MBMBAM #17 though the records did better on the r&b charts.

And Finally after Cindy Birdsong left the Supremes in 1972 they had recorded their last top 20 single with her on bcg vocals. their popularity was vastly affected with her departure. .Unfortunatley with her replacement no more top hits would ensue, although Scherrie would chart a top 40 hit in 1976 for the group.

What about Barbara Martin leaving the Supremes?
Or Gloria Williams leaving the Vandellas?
Or Georgia Dobbins leaving the Marvelettes?

Seems to me you can spin a story any way you like.

[soulballad]

All of those ladies were long gone by the time their groups hit it big and were never known by the public.

When a group is extremly popular and a beloved member leaves it does effect the group to different degrees in each case. The Marvelettes had been off and on throughout their career and Motown never sold the individuals names as in the case of the Supremes. If Motown didn't think Florence's leaving would effect things then they would not have gotton a look alike replacement. The Supremes suffered the 1-2-3 punch. Flo leaving, HDH leaving and the girl group era ending all in 1967. The Marvelettes had major internal problems long before Glady's left. Martha Reeves had a breakdown and fell apart around 67-68. All of their times had come and gone. The Supremes image was so strong that they were able to continue for a while. Diana Ross was able to transcend that era but eventually [[as with everything) her time went too! We all still love all of them but we are just a very small percentage. Sadly the whole Motown thing is fading fast.

[marv2]

What about Barbara Martin leaving the Supremes?
Or Gloria Williams leaving the Vandellas?
Or Georgia Dobbins leaving the Marvelettes?

Seems to me you can spin a story any way you like.

That's not the right comparison because each of those groups had not been established and known much outside of Detroit at the time those ladies departed.

[stingbeelee]

I do stand corrected. According to the complete Motown Singles, the background vocals were Mary, Flo and Marlene. I apologize to the forum!

[marv2]

I do stand corrected. According to the complete Motown Singles, the background vocals were Mary, Flo and Marlene. I apologize to the forum!

You don't have to apologize. Jobeterob said that Mary Wilson and Florence Ballard are not on the record period1 I know they are on that record because I can hear them.

[jobeterob]

Here is the definitive section on Stop in the Name of Love:

"Diana Mary and Florence recorded the song but four days later the tune was re-cut with the Andantes. This became the released version that received a Grammy nomination for Best Contemporary Rock and Roll Performance by a Group. It lost to Flowers on the Wall by the Statler Brothers."

From Diana Ross and the Supremes, 50th Anniversary, Singles Collection

Track annotations and essays by George Solomon & Andrew Skurow, edited and revisited from Original research and authorship by Keith Hughes and Bill Dahl for The Complete Motown Singles series.

As Andrew has said many times.............it's not about anything other than setting the historical record straight.

[soulballad]

I think I'm an open minded person and I can accept the truth if it's from a reasonable source, however it seems that there are other motives involved in "setting the historical record straight". If you cant get the info right the first time why should I believe you at any time!

I'm starting to think that in order to work for Motown/Universal you must sign a contract agreeing to only say wonderful things and professing your love and admiration for Berry, Diana and Smokey! If you dont really believe that they are that fabulous and if you can't even pretend that you think they are that great, then you're out! LOL! I say that jokingly but there could be some truth to it.

[smark21]

Dawn Robinson’s departure from En Vogue certainly hurt their popularity. And Left Eye’s untimely early death was something TLC never recovered from.

[marv2]

Here is the definitive section on Stop in the Name of Love:

"Diana Mary and Florence recorded the song but four days later the tune was re-cut with the Andantes. This became the released version that received a Grammy nomination for Best Contemporary Rock and Roll Performance by a Group. It lost to Flowers on the Wall by the Statler Brothers."

From Diana Ross and the Supremes, 50th Anniversary, Singles Collection

Track annotations and essays by George Solomon & Andrew Skurow, edited and revisited from Original research and authorship by Keith Hughes and Bill Dahl for The Complete Motown Singles series.

As Andrew has said many times.............it's not about anything other than setting the historical record straight.

You're blowing smoke up your own _ _ _ because none of that means squat unless I hear it from the folks that were in Hitsville and at those sessions namely Lamont Dozier, Mary Wilson, Eddie Holland, Diana Ross and Brian Holland. On the record I hear Mary, Flo and Diane and the Funk Brothers. So you are right, it is not about anything unless the actual participants make statements about it!

[marv2]

I think I'm an open minded person and I can accept the truth if it's from a reasonable source, however it seems that there are other motives involved in "setting the historical record straight". If you cant get the info right the first time why should I believe you at any time!

I'm starting to think that in order to work for Motown/Universal you must sign a contract agreeing to only say wonderful things and professing your love and admiration for Berry, Diana and Smokey! If you dont really believe that they are that fabulous and if you can't even pretend that you think they are that great, then you're out! LOL! I say that jokingly but there could be some truth to it.


Ahemmmmmm........!

[bradsupremes]

You know, Marv, the master tape is very telling sometimes. You don't even need Brian, Lamont, Eddie, Mary, Diana, or Florence to tell you directly. All you have to do is listen to an isolated track of the tape and you soon realize you're hearing something you never heard before. Keep your ears open...you'd be amazed at what you hear.

[stingbeelee]

Here is the section regarding the singers and music on Stop! In The Name Of Love from the Complete Motown Singles:

"All the usual ingredients H-D-H devised for the Supremes were in place: the stomping backbeat, Diana's captivating lead, the perky retorts from Mary and Flo [[and a little help from the Andantes' Marlene Barrow). But this time the chord progression is considerably more complex. That whooshing organ intro was enough to command any listener's attention..."

Primary Sources: The Hitsville Session Logbooks
The Motown Library Tape Filing Card Index
The Motown 45 RPM Label Copy Files
The Jobete Music Company Catalog January 1959 - March 31, 1967

Digitally remastered from the original analog singles master tapes by Ellen Fitton at Universal Mastering Studios - East

History in the making!

[jobeterob]

Yes, but dont you see that the Supremes Complete Singles came after the Complete Motown Singles and they revisited this issue because they had found additional information ~ that the version with the Supremes was wiped and the Andantes were substituted.

I don't see the big deal unless there is this huge devotion to some vision of Mary and Flo.

Nonetheless, it apparently is the view of those in charge at Universal that it is the Andantes over the Supremes.

I'm only saying what's there.

[smark21]

Whichever Supremes songs did not include group members on vocals, it’s safe to conclude that Motown engaged in deception and consumer fraud which are potential criminal offenses. To be fair, Motown wasn’t the only label to engage in such practices, but at the end of the day, that’s what Motown did.

[soulballad]

Whichever Supremes songs did not include group members on vocals, it’s safe to conclude that Motown engaged in deception and consumer fraud which are potential criminal offenses. To be fair, Motown wasn’t the only label to engage in such practices, but at the end of the day, that’s what Motown did.


Exactly! Since everyone is so keen on setting the record straight and if we are to believe them then I want my money back from all of the purchases over the years! We should start a law suit against Motown and the entire recording industry. A lot of my money was taken by deceptive means!

[antceleb12]

Us fans just have to accept that it wasn't always just the original group [[or any of the back-ups at all) on the record. One extreme case that comes to mind is the Supremes' Christmas album, in which ALL of the tracks have the Andantes multitracked [[or substituted) on them. I know Mary, Flo, and Diana all recorded their lead and background vocals, but the Andantes, for one reason or another, were added to the entire album. I've always wondered about that. And it used to make me mad, because that was [[and is, still) a staple Christmas album for me. But it is what it is...

[marv2]

Yes, but dont you see that the Supremes Complete Singles came after the Complete Motown Singles and they revisited this issue because they had found additional information ~ that the version with the Supremes was wiped and the Andantes were substituted.

I don't see the big deal unless there is this huge devotion to some vision of Mary and Flo.

Nonetheless, it apparently is the view of those in charge at Universal that it is the Andantes over the Supremes.

I'm only saying what's there.

The people you are talking about were't even there. I am going with what was documented by those that were there during the recording. We went through this same thing with Stevie Wonder's "I Was Made to Love Her" and the claim that some made that it was Carol Kaye and not James Jamerson providing the bassline. Luckily Bob Babbitt stepped in along with others that were at the session and verified that it is indeed Jamerson playing on that record. All evidence [[and sound) say that it is Florence, Diana and Mary on "Stop In the Name of Love" anything else is just 45 year late speculation.

[marv2]

Mary Wilson was the first and only person to mention that she and Cindy Birdsong were not on "Love Child" and "Someday We'll Be Together" in her book, "Dreamgirl, My Life As A Supreme". She even gave the reasons why. She did not say that she is not on "Stop In the Name of Love" because she, Flo and Diane are on that record. I hear them.

[marv2]

I think I'm an open minded person and I can accept the truth if it's from a reasonable source, however it seems that there are other motives involved in "setting the historical record straight". If you cant get the info right the first time why should I believe you at any time!

I'm starting to think that in order to work for Motown/Universal you must sign a contract agreeing to only say wonderful things and professing your love and admiration for Berry, Diana and Smokey! If you dont really believe that they are that fabulous and if you can't even pretend that you think they are that great, then you're out! LOL! I say that jokingly but there could be some truth to it.

I think you are right about other motives being involved here. In fact, I am certain of it!

[bradsupremes]

Mary Wilson was the first and only person to mention that she and Cindy Birdsong were not on "Love Child" and "Someday We'll Be Together" in her book, "Dreamgirl, My Life As A Supreme". She even gave the reasons why. She did not say that she is not on "Stop In the Name of Love" because she, Flo and Diane are on that record. I hear them.

Marv, do you realize there are two sets of vocals for "Stop! In The Name of Love?" The version issued on the Supremes 2000 box set is not the single version we all know and love. The vocals on the alternate version were recorded first. It is Diana, Mary and Flo. The single version was recorded a few days later. That version is Diana and the Andantes. You're right, Mary never said she didn't record "Stop! In The Name of Love." She, Diana and Flo did record the song! Just not the version that was released back in 1965.

Everyone wants to only believe those who were there which is not a problem at all. As with history, sources close to an event are more likely to be considered true. However, when some of your sources have died, cannot recall a particular event, or don't remember an event correctly then turning to other sources which have evidence of the event are not to be quickly dismissed. The Motown session logs and tape cards contain information that the people during the Motown days may not remember. And of course there are the master tapes which are the most telling. They contain the evidence that the people, the session logs, and tape cards don't have.

[soulballad]

Marv, do you realize there are two sets of vocals for "Stop! In The Name of Love?" The version issued on the Supremes 2000 box set is not the single version we all know and love. The vocals on the alternate version were recorded first. It is Diana, Mary and Flo. The single version was recorded a few days later. That version is Diana and the Andantes. You're right, Mary never said she didn't record "Stop! In The Name of Love." She, Diana and Flo did record the song! Just not the version that was released back in 1965.

Everyone wants to only believe those who were there which is not a problem at all. As with history, sources close to an event are more likely to be considered true. However, when some of your sources have died, cannot recall a particular event, or don't remember an event correctly then turning to other sources which have evidence of the event are not to be quickly dismissed. The Motown session logs and tape cards contain information that the people during the Motown days may not remember. And of course there are the master tapes which are the most telling. They contain the evidence that the people, the session logs, and tape cards don't have.

Weren't those same session logs and master tapes utilized when the singles colletions were being produced? Then they said it was Flo & Mary with Marlene. Doesn't it make you really wonder why a whole paragraph was dedicated to the Diane vs. Diana issue in the Meet the Supremes booklet when she still called herself Diane as late as the Copa [[and I'm sure beyond). Isnt it a bit odd that in the More Hits booklet the birthdays of Diana and Mary were mentioned but on the June 30th timelime Flo's was not. I'll play devils advocate for a minute. The more recently released version of Stop sounds a little different from the versions we've known for years but by the same token each time the song was performed live it was also done a little differently and sounded a little different. A different day can produce different results. At this point the arguement is moot. Those on each side will not ever be convienced! I will offer this to those who can hear me. Please do not be so quick to believe what is written or said especially now and especially from someone who wasn't really there and from people who are still out to make the biggest buck! I can read session logs and listen to master tapes all day [[and I have a trained ear) and sometimes you hear something differently. Plus the human mind is subjective. Tomorrow if HDH came on the board and said that they were the ones singing on Stop then all of sudden people will say. AHA, I knew it was men the whole time!

[jobeterob]

Brad is always a voice of reason about this issue.

Since Diana Ross & the Supremes Complete Singles was released with this revised information, I have listened to the released single and I now hear the Andantes and I have to say, I don't like the song as much as I used to. I'll pull out the box set and listen to that one.

Who would make a buck out of saying Diana sings with the Andantes on the single version? What is in it for anyone other than a music historian interested in Motown and Diana Ross and the Supremes?

It is interesting to read Tarraborelli's Michael Jackson book........because all the same arguments are made with respect to the Jackson 5..........Mike elevated himself, Mike didn't care for the others, Mike should have done another tour with the boys cuz their money was gone, Motown didn't promote the Jackson 5 when the hits stopped. Different group, same story.

[marv2]

Brad is always a voice of reason about this issue.

Since Diana Ross & the Supremes Complete Singles was released with this revised information, I have listened to the released single and I now hear the Andantes and I have to say, I don't like the song as much as I used to. I'll pull out the box set and listen to that one.

Who would make a buck out of saying Diana sings with the Andantes on the single version? What is in it for anyone other than a music historian interested in Motown and Diana Ross and the Supremes?

It is interesting to read Tarraborelli's Michael Jackson book........because all the same arguments are made with respect to the Jackson 5..........Mike elevated himself, Mike didn't care for the others, Mike should have done another tour with the boys cuz their money was gone, Motown didn't promote the Jackson 5 when the hits stopped. Different group, same story.

Yeah and Bobby Taylor of the Vancouvers who discovered the The Jackson 5 and who was THERE said that this guy Taraborelli got it WRONG!. I posted the interview were Bobby said it on the forum very recently.

I go with the people that were there who did the recording and the documentation in Detroit. Sorry.,........

[jobeterob]

Randy goes all through the connections Bobby Taylor and Gladys Knight have to the early discovery of the J5 and also how the Motown machinery kicked in to have Diana Ross take over the "discovery".

Michael lapped it up and loved it.............and so did the brothers. And they did call her "Miss Ross", as you should Marv. It would do your soul good, you know you love her!

Michael told Joe he needed to learn PR!

As with everything else, Motown pushed all of that too far and everyone got tired of it, Michael included.

Michael could have given the brothers the "moon" and it wouldn't have been enough at one time...............just like Diana could have given Mary the moon and it wouldn't have been enough once, just like Smokey with the Miracles, Paul with the Beatles, Gladys with the Pips, Martha with the Vandellas, on and on and on.

Eventually, they all settle down and get happy in the end.

[marybrewster]

Mary Wilson was the first and only person to mention that she and Cindy Birdsong were not on "Love Child" and "Someday We'll Be Together" in her book, "Dreamgirl, My Life As A Supreme". She even gave the reasons why. She did not say that she is not on "Stop In the Name of Love" because she, Flo and Diane are on that record. I hear them.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Av4Ve94tJvw

There goes that theory!

[marv2]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Av4Ve94tJvw

There goes that theory!

It is no theory, it is documented in writing in her book. Didn't you read it? You should. There are copies of it in every library in the U.S. and Canada. What she said in a concert in Austraila 3 years after the release of her best-seller is accurate.

Oh and for the record! She is not lying, she did record "Someday We'll Be Together" with Diane and Cindy and it is on their album, "Diana Ross & the Supremes Farewell" released in 1970!

[marv2]

Randy goes all through the connections Bobby Taylor and Gladys Knight have to the early discovery of the J5 and also how the Motown machinery kicked in to have Diana Ross take over the "discovery".

Michael lapped it up and loved it.............and so did the brothers. And they did call her "Miss Ross", as you should Marv. It would do your soul good, you know you love her!

Michael told Joe he needed to learn PR!

As with everything else, Motown pushed all of that too far and everyone got tired of it, Michael included.

Michael could have given the brothers the "moon" and it wouldn't have been enough at one time...............just like Diana could have given Mary the moon and it wouldn't have been enough once, just like Smokey with the Miracles, Paul with the Beatles, Gladys with the Pips, Martha with the Vandellas, on and on and on.

Eventually, they all settle down and get happy in the end.

Blather, blather, blather. This guy, Randy got it wrong and Bobby Taylor cold busted him! That is all that matters to me........

[marybrewster]

LOL; keep grasping at straws. This same concert Mary also says "Reflections" was from 1965.

[jobeterob]

I have to love this irony:

Diana: "This guy Randy, he wrote a book about me, he doesn't know me"

Marv: "This guy Randy, he got it all wrong"

Soul Mates til the end!

[Roberta75]

I have to love this irony:

Diana: "This guy Randy, he wrote a book about me, he doesn't know me"

Marv: "This guy Randy, he got it all wrong"

Soul Mates til the end!

LOL. Now that's some funny stuff jobeterob.

Thanks for the laugh.

Roberta

[marv2]

LOL; keep grasping at straws. This same concert Mary also says "Reflections" was from 1965.

I'm not the one grasping. You brought it up! LOL!

[marv2]

I have to love this irony:

Diana: "This guy Randy, he wrote a book about me, he doesn't know me"

Marv: "This guy Randy, he got it all wrong"

Soul Mates til the end!

Well I could tell you some things, but it would cause your head to completely explode trying to figure it out! hehehehehehehehe!

[jillfoster]

....just like Diana could have given Mary the moon and it wouldn't have been enough once,

Your'e so right, Rob... being asked back to your old job for a 300 percent cut in pay was so generous, who in their right mind would turn it down?

[Roberta75]

I hope Ralph is keeping a watchful eye on this thread. I fear it's just about to go south.

Roberta

[marv2]

Your'e so right, Rob... being asked back to your old job for a 300 percent cut in pay was so generous, who in their right mind would turn it down?

I don't know who would turn down that sweet deal but I am extremely happy that Mary Wilson did! Berry Gordy paid them all equally!

[carole cucumber]

I don't know who would turn down that sweet deal but I am extremely happy that Mary Wilson did! Berry Gordy paid them all equally!

Contracts that were signed brought the Supremes equal pay.
But some have reported that Diana got other non-monetary amenities from Berry Gordy that the other Supremes did not. For example, Mary mentions that Diana received approval to take make-up classes at John Robert Powers, while she and Florence's request for a tutor from Wayne State University to further their education was turned down.

[marv2]

Contracts that were signed brought the Supremes equal pay.
But some have reported that Diana got other non-monetary amenities from Berry Gordy that the other Supremes did not. For example, Mary mentions that Diana received approval to take make-up classes at John Robert Powers, while she and Florence's request for a tutor from Wayne State University to further their education was turned down.

That's not true at all. When Diane got a fur from Berry, so did Mary and Flo. The reason she had to take additional classes at Robert Powers, is because she needed them! That's the part that is true and no one seems to want to own up to. She needed more cosmetic help than either Florence or Mary who were already va va voom .....beautiful!

[carole cucumber]

That's not true at all. When Diane got a fur from Berry, so did Mary and Flo. The reason she had to take additional classes at Robert Powers, is because she needed them! That's the part that is true and no one seems to want to own up to. She needed more cosmetic help than either Florence or Mary who were already va va voom .....beautiful!

Simply amazing!

"That's not true AT ALL....... THAT'S THE PART that is true...

One shouldn't contradict oneself in the same paragraph if one wants to offer proof.

[marv2]

Simply amazing!

"That's not true AT ALL....... THAT'S THE PART that is true...

One shouldn't contradict oneself in the same paragraph if one wants to offer proof.

There is no contradiction on my part nor Mary Wilson's. You have a hard time understanding things. Diane received approval to get more help at Robert Powers that Florence and Mary neither needed or asked for! LOL! That was not a "non-monetary amenity" that proves that she got more than the others. That is a poor example. Come again.......

The bottomline is all three of the Supremes were paid equally!

[Ngroove]

The real reason behind Marvelettes, Martha & the Vandellas' gradual fading into obscurity; more sttention & promotion was given to the Supremes.

[marv2]

The real reason behind Marvelettes, Martha & the Vandellas' gradual fading into obscurity; more sttention & promotion was given to the Supremes.

That is right Ngroove!

[Ngroove]

Yeah, pulling out my "Dreamgirl" book by Mary Wilson, I remember reading this, on page 166:

" Just eight months after our first big hit, the Supremes were Motown's greatest commodity. But as great as the Motown machine was, it could work only on a couple acts at a time. As a result several other acts began receiving less attention than they deserved, especially since Berry was now spending so much time with us. Martha and the Vandellas, for example, saw their position erode at this time. Writers and producers still wanted to work with them, and they were still making great records. But Motown was still a small company, and our success was just too big for the setup. Before we hit, the promotional efforts would be concentrated on one act while it was hot; several weeks later, someone else would be hot. It all balanced out over the long run. The Supremes' constant success, however, threw a wrench in the works. I could see it happening, and I felt very bad about it. But I was too young to know how to approach my friends and tell them how I felt. It was all beyond my control".

[franjoy56]

Mary's take on the Motown promotion situation made a lot of sense, as stated in her book, she surely went through it with all this mess through the years until she left in 1977. can you imagine telling Mary Wilson that she and Flo were not on the released version of Stop in the Name of Love" the released version that has an extra voice in their belonging to a low alto singing andante, I too hear Flo and Mary on "Stop in the name of Love" and it seems foolish to undermine the efforts of Mary Wilson and Flo Ballard who were more than an essential part of the team.e.

[marv2]

Mary's take on the Motown promotion situation made a lot of sense, as stated in her book, she surely went through it with all this mess through the years until she left in 1977. can you imagine telling Mary Wilson that she and Flo were not on the released version of Stop in the Name of Love" the released version that has an extra voice in their belonging to a low alto singing andante, I too hear Flo and Mary on "Stop in the name of Love" and it seems foolish to undermine the efforts of Mary Wilson and Flo Ballard who were more than an essential part of the team.e.

I probably would not have even paid attention to the Supremes if Mary Wilson and Florence were not there, in the group. In fact, I am sure of it!

[stephanie]

I always felt there was another voice with them on Stop in The Name of Love but it is clear to me that Flo and Mary are on that record. They are on 90 percent of their records excpet for the post Supremes stuff [[Diana Ross and the Supremes). Interestingly enough as a child I could tell on the Love Child album that Cindy and Mary are on some of those songs. When I heard the later Diana Ross and the Supremes albums I knew then we were being hoodwinked. When you hear songs like Glad I Got Somebody Like you Around, and Keep an Eye you know thats not Mary and Cindy.

[franjoy56]

I always felt there was another voice with them on Stop in The Name of Love but it is clear to me that Flo and Mary are on that record. They are on 90 percent of their records excpet for the post Supremes stuff [[Diana Ross and the Supremes). Interestingly enough as a child I could tell on the Love Child album that Cindy and Mary are on some of those songs. When I heard the later Diana Ross and the Supremes albums I knew then we were being hoodwinked. When you hear songs like Glad I Got Somebody Like you Around, and Keep an Eye you know thats not Mary and Cindy.

Great point Steph, I remember reaing on wikipedia some time ago that Mary & Cindy appear on Keep an Eye, along with He's My Sunny Boy, and I'll Set You Free, the Andantes sing on the rest, but now wikipedia have removed this revealation, , but Hmsb and isyf are surely Birdie and Wilson.

[dvus7]

I have always felt that Im Gonna Make you Love Me could have been a hit for just the Temps with or without Diana, Mary and Cindy.


I totally disagree....have u seen the temps do the song by themselves?? Something is obviously missing!! Diana Ross performed it with Stevie Wonder.

[marybrewster]

Well this thread is a blast from the past! Marv in rare form!

One thing I never saw mentioned; Destiny's Chile were seemingly more successful once LeToya and LaTavia were replaced by [[Farrah Franklin and) Michelle Williams.

[jobeterob]

The good old days - I remember em too

Pretty good info in the part I scanned

So many people are gone - that part is sad

[ivyfield]

Yep, I agree.

[ivyfield]

Followed a group because of the backing singers? Never heard that one before.

[ivyfield]

Plus Berry confronting Martha over her drug abuse. Nothing new - it's all well documented.