DMF singing People in the "Orient"

[smark21]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vReOKj08Lcs

[BigAl]

How interesting that both Florence and Mary were given breakout leads here. When I saw them, Flo had the first couple of verses, then Diane took the final chorus, and finally Flo led them all in at the very end.

[Bokiluis]

Sometimes it is easy to forget just how huge The Supremes were. If this were the MTV days, they would have dedicated an entire special to "The Supremes in the Orient". Unfortunately, The Supremes have not even received a proper 50th Anniversary celebration. Though The Beach Boys also were very popular, The Supremes eclipsed them as the most popular American group from 1964-1969. And that was not only the singles, but, multi-platinum selling albums in "Where Did Our Love Go", "More Hits by", "Sing Holland, Dozier, Holland", "A Go Go" amongst others. No acts sold the types of quantities that were sold in the 90s, even The Beatles. However, TLC and The Spice Girls have more registered RIAA sales than The Supremes. But in actuality, The Supremes still reign as the #1 girl group in the world, to this day.....if you extrapolated their sales into current numbers, those 20 million albums sold, would be much closer to 50 million albums.
But here comes The Beach Boys with a new album and a new tour. Of course, neither was possible for The Supremes, but, The Beatles are down to two living members and they still get first class promotion.
The Beach Boys resurgence was handled so well that I ended up buying "The Pet Sounds: Complete Sessions".
But The Supremes' 50th Anniversary has practically come and gone with only another compilation and the Ed Sullivan appearances on DVD. You would have thought that VH1 and BET would have done specials on both them and The Temptations. Why wasn't "T.C.B." and/or "G.I.T." not re-air on PBS. Every time that iTunes promotes one of their compilations, especially "#1s", the sales are quite impressive. So I honestly feel it is a matter of Motown/Universal does not have the vision to insure that their legacy lives on.
It doesn't take a marketing whiz to see a lost opportunity.
The Supremes television specials should have re-aired on PBS, VH1 and BET!
i'm sure if Berry Gordy was still at the helm, the legacy of his Mount Rushmore roster would be properly promoted.
How will a new generation know without being told? How will the Baby Boomers be reignited without proper promotion?
Sure rock acts have a different trajectory, but, surely if The Supremes were properly promoted, their 50th Anniversary would have been a lot more celebratory.

[Penny]

Bokiluis I admire your knowledge and passion. I think the answer to your heartfelt questions boil down to three initials.

RTL

Your friend;
Penny:o

[luke]

Very well said Bokiluis. It is so rarely stated the Supremes were the biggest selling American group then, not just girl group. The Beach Boys were as estranged as the Supremes were before their current tour and two Beatles are dead yet their legacies have been much more heavily promoted then the Supremes.

[skooldem1]

Not trying to imply anything, but does anyone feel that the Supreme Legacy was greatly tarnished when Mary released her book?

[Bokiluis]

Bokiluis I admire your knowledge and passion. I think the answer to your heartfelt questions boil down to three initials.

RTL

Your friend;
Penny:o
Penny, I was privileged to see "Return to Love" in of all places, Detroit. If you attended that show, I hope you will agree that it was simply amazing. I honestly did not miss marywilson or Cindy. [[After their disastrous appearance on Motown 45, neither women looked ready for prime time). Ironically to me, though they were virtually the same age, both Lynda Laurence and Scherrie Payne looked like younger, vibrant versions of marywilson and Cindy.
i am biased because I have been a Diana Ross admirer since 1964.
But "Return to Love" was plagued by unfair, in my opinion bad press. Without reigniting the same old issues, one particular person had a vendetta and that vendetta went viral because people tend to be drawn to controversy more than reality sometimes. Never forget before SFX pulled the plug, Madison Square Garden was sold out. Also Lynda attended one of the Diana Ross fan events and stated unequivocally that SFX or was it FX, tried to coerce Diana into a long term touring contract, which she wasn't interested in. You can believe what you believe. I just saw it as "Return to Love" became a victim of Murphy's Law.
All that stated, the end result of "Return to Love" should not have forced near inaction from Motown/Universal on the 50th Anniversary. [[They had tried to capitalize on the tour by preparing The Supremes boxset in the pink hues of the tour).

[Bokiluis]

Not trying to imply anything, but does anyone feel that the Supreme Legacy was greatly tarnished when Mary released her book?
Unfortunately, it most certainly didn't help. But Keith Richards wrote a pretty warts and all bio of The Stones without any measurable repercussions. The whole Yoko Ono thing, didn't affect The Beatles. Even Paul McCartney wanting to change the writing credits of his songs from "Lennon/McCartney" to either "McCartney/Lennon" or simply "McCartney" didn't hurt the long term legacy of The Beatles.

[Bokiluis]

Very well said Bokiluis. It is so rarely stated the Supremes were the biggest selling American group then, not just girl group. The Beach Boys were as estranged as the Supremes were before their current tour and two Beatles are dead yet their legacies have been much more heavily promoted then the Supremes.

Thanks Luke. Is it possible that The Supremes songs were possibly too teenybopper? But The Beach Boys Pre-"Pet Sounds" had the dated surfer sound.

[detmotownguy]

At times it seems that the Motown legacy is a "throwaway" commodity. The resultant music is one of the great wonders of the world that should be celebrated and respected.

[luke]

I agree. Look at You Keep Me Hangin on one of the greatest records/songs ever; many critics have raved about the Supremes-but rock and roll is sexist and they didnt write their own stuff. Yet if Universal pushed it I think things would be different.

[jobeterob]

Penny is right.

It wasn't that RTL was a bad show, nor that it did not have it's sellouts; no one cares that Diana really shut it down by refusing to kiss SFX's ass.

But the perception was that it was unsuccessful. That is all that is left of it. That and that it ended relationships and reunions.

There were news stories around thereafter that all the Supremes, and everything connected with the Supremes, suffered reduced bookings and demand after it shut down. As I recall, at least one of those news stories said that nobody suffered more than Mary Wilson.

And you'll recall, shortly thereafter Diana had an aborted tour as she dealt with the alcohol issue.

I believe all of that hurt the Supremes brand a lot but it also hurt the Motown brand.

And that is why there was not more of a bump for Motown 50 or Supremes 50 or Temptations 50.

There are really only two working Motown stars that still tour and attract attention - Stevie and Diana.
Perhaps Smokey and Gladys. And there is the later day Lionel who recently had a hit. If all of them got together for something, that would attract attention. Maybe Berry can get them to "guest star" for a time in his Broadway show. Now that would get attention.

What is out there for Temptations and Supremes are replacement replacements; men and women saying they are Supremes and Temptations but they were born after Berry moved Motown to LA or after the Supremes folded. Otis and Mary have no sound that is recognizable as the classic Supremes or Temptations sound ~ Otis is not known for any sound; Mary sounds nothing like the sounds that came from Diana or Jean. I dislike the idea ~ but some of these tribute groups come closer to the "sound" than anything connected with the original group.

That's why Motown 50 fizzled.

[carlo]

Penny is right.

It wasn't that RTL was a bad show, nor that it did not have it's sellouts; no one cares that Diana really shut it down by refusing to kiss SFX's ass.



I agree that RTL was not a bad show. I saw it in Toronto in 2000 and it was wonderful.

Yes, the rumour is out there [[and I say rumour, because I don't think SFX or Diana ever officially confirmed this), that SFX wanted Diana to extend the tour for three years and when Diana refused, they cancelled the tour. Many fans think that this means the tour was not cancelled due to poor ticket sales, but rather because Diana said "no". I do not think this is the case. From an accounting perspective, if SFX wanted to extend the tour, then they were likely doing so because the up-front fixed costs for the tour were huge. By extending it, perhaps they were hoping that the losses would eventually turn into a profit, especially if they were to bring the tour to Europe. It sounds like Diana did not want to do that, so SFX pulled the plug sooner, rather than later, to reduce the damage. This is my personal assessment/opinion, not fact. At the end of the day, the tour didn't do well.

[carlo]

Motown 25 did so well because it was a true reunion of the entire [[well-amost) Motown family. It brought back the music and the memories that everyone holds so dearly. Motown 45 did not accomplish that, in my opinion. Many of our Motown legends have passed on or are no longer in good health to be performing onstage, which is why Motown 50 unfortunately came and went without much fan fare. I am thankful for all of our legends who are still out there on the road and touring, like Diana Ross, Mary Wilson, Martha Reeves, The Original Vandellas, Otis Williams, Duke Fakir, etc. However, I don't think we will ever see another reunion and/or TV special like Motown 25. If they would have done a Motown 50 special, it would have been all sorts of young talent taking the stage to pay tribute, which is really unexciting. It's sad because I don't think cable TV is interested in doing a proper Motown TV special/tribute anymore. Thank God for TJ Lubinsky and PBS, who work hard to preserve and present musical histories and legacies in a respectable manner.

[jobeterob]

I agree.

Don't you think though, that there could be some excitement generated and tickets sold by some arrangement with Lionel, Smokey, Gladys, Diana, and Stevie? I don't know if such a show would be possible let alone more than one show. But I think that would be a smoking celebration of Motown before all of these people are done touring.

Probably the logistics and egos of that would be pretty tough though.

[markdtiller]

I saw Mary last year at the Indigo O2 in London, when she was on tour with The Chi-Lites and she sounded magnificent, best I've heard her. I doubt any Motown singer working today still sounds as good and gets better with age. Diana barely seems to make an effort and trades on her star status, Martha's voice is shot, very shrill, Stevie and The Tempts have all seen better days. Save for Gladys maybe, I don't know how she sounds live these days.

[carlo]

Don't you think though, that there could be some excitement generated and tickets sold by some arrangement with Lionel, Smokey, Gladys, Diana, and Stevie?

It's possible, however I have a hard time imaging Diana sharing the bill with anybody. I don't say this out of disrespect, but I don't think Diana has done many of these types of shows. The only exception is "Divas With A Heart" at Radio City in New York, which received rave reviews and press. I think doing these sorts of engagements would be a good thing, but to be honest, I would rather just go to a concert and see Diana for 80 minutes in an intimate venue, rather than a big group tour where I'll only see her do a 45 minute set.

[carlo]

I saw Mary last year at the Indigo O2 in London, when she was on tour with The Chi-Lites and she sounded magnificent, best I've heard her. I doubt any Motown singer working today still sounds as good and gets better with age. Diana barely seems to make an effort and trades on her star status, Martha's voice is shot, very shrill, Stevie and The Tempts have all seen better days. Save for Gladys maybe, I don't know how she sounds live these days.

Mary is still fantastic. Gladys was great when I saw her two years ago. Smokey still puts on an entertaining show and sells out every time he's here.

Diana's voice has faded a little, but she still captivates her audiences with much glitz and glamour. I saw her in September and was fortunate to have front row seats in the pit. I loved every minute of it.

The only reoccurring complaint I've read about Diana's shows in recent years is that she doesn't seem to be spontaneous enough. She doesn't really do much interacting with the audience and sticks to the music. With all of the songs she performs and costume changes that she makes in the time that she's restricted to, I guess it wouldn't leave any time for talking? When I saw Aretha, she did quite a bit of talking, but it seemed a little scripted, distant and insincere.

Diana sometimes does interact with the audience. In March, she walked out into the audience after years of not doing that, which surprised everybody. But then all sorts of audience members ended up leaving their seats and flooded the aisles to take photos of her with their cell phones. Maybe that's why Diana doesn't do it anymore? How can she connect to the audience in an authentic manner when everybody is too preoccupied taking photos and videos with their electronic devices?

[jobeterob]

Do you think that it's possible some of these singers are told to cut the chatter to save the voice, due to their age? I often wonder.

I agree with Carlo about preferring to see any one of these singers do a show as opposed to some kind of revue with all of them.

And it's probably true that after all these years, Diana isn't going to be doing a lot of ensemble.

But it sure would be a treat to see someone put these people together for a show ~ Berry as part of his Broadway show, or Suzanne, or whomever has some connections.

And it certainly doesn't rule out including groups like the Temptations and artists like Martha Reeves.

[carlo]

Do you think that it's possible some of these singers are told to cut the chatter to save the voice, due to their age? I often wonder.


I sing and while I'm by no means a professional singer, I know that there are tips and techniques when it comes to talking. During the off times, when you're not singing, you're supposed to reduce the strain on your vocal chords as much as possible. That can be accomplished in a number of ways. I find that talking in a more breathier manner tends to put less strain on the vocal chords. Diana has said in the past that when she's on tour, she limits her talking in between shows as much as possible. Doing that helps one's vocal chords to heal/recover that much quicker. They're just like any other muscle in your body. If you've been doing bicep curls at the gym, you gotta take a period of time off to rest afterwards in order to heal the mini-tears that are created.

However, I don't know if all of this also explains the lack of interacting/talking she does during her shows. It's hard to say. It could be, but even doing a small amount of chatter during your show won't have a huge affect, unless your vocal chords are very, very weak...and I don't think that's the case with Diana. It was definitely the case with Whitney, unfortunately.

[skooldem1]

For a long period of Diana's career, many critics and concert goers use to say she talked too much. Almost all of her recent reviews mention the fact that she doesn't talk much to the audience. When she talked, it was too much. Now that she cut the chatter out, critics still aren't satisfied. On a good day, Diana's voice last only about 80 minutes or so. Then she starts to get raspy and hoarse. It is a calculated move on her part. She just hits them with the hits and saves her voice.

[jobeterob]

I think you are right; her instinct would tell her to talk but she's been told to back it off. I listened to the Endless Love that Carlo posted from St. Lucia and while it's great to hear her doing a song she doesn't do very often anymore ~ it's pretty clear to me that 50 years of singing and aging does change the voice somewhat.

[Roberta75]

I saw Mary last year at the Indigo O2 in London, when she was on tour with The Chi-Lites and she sounded magnificent, best I've heard her. I doubt any Motown singer working today still sounds as good and gets better with age. Diana barely seems to make an effort and trades on her star status, Martha's voice is shot, very shrill, Stevie and The Tempts have all seen better days. Save for Gladys maybe, I don't know how she sounds live these days.


Martha's voice is not shot marktiller. In fact Miss martha Reeves sounds better than Diane Ross and Mary Wilson and I like both ladies. What Martha brings to the stage is a fabulous voice, a great personality and a star quality that shines brighter than any other lady.

The first lady of Motown Miss martha Reeves is still very much in demand on TV and on stage and has recently been back in the charts. Martha also has a new live album out which is fantastic.

Respectfully yours.

Roberta

[ejluther]

In fact Miss martha Reeves sounds better than Diane Ross and Mary Wilson and I like both ladies.
No offense but there is no "fact" involved in discussions like this - it's purely subjective as taste always is...

[Roberta75]

No offense but there is no "fact" involved in discussions like this - it's purely subjective as taste always is...

You are correct. I should have added IMO and IMO Martha Reeves does sound better than Diane Ross and mary Wilson.

Thank you,

Roberta

[detmotownguy]

I think you are right; her instinct would tell her to talk but she's been told to back it off. I listened to the Endless Love that Carlo posted from St. Lucia and while it's great to hear her doing a song she doesn't do very often anymore ~ it's pretty clear to me that 50 years of singing and aging does change the voice somewhat.

Maybe she had cold cause she did sound a bit hoarse. Possibly a just a bad transfer to YouTube.

[Bokiluis]

No offense but there is no "fact" involved in discussions like this - it's purely subjective as taste always is...
Hallelujah! Sometimes reading posts in this forum is like living in an alternate universe where marywilson and Martha Reeves sound better than Diana. Really? Really? What can one say after a statement like that but. Really?

[Roberta75]

Hallelujah! Sometimes reading posts in this forum is like living in an alternate universe where marywilson and Martha Reeves sound better than Diana. Really? Really? What can one say after a statement like that but. Really?

Yes really. I did correct myself and say "In my opinion" so why not respectfully disagree and give your viewpoint instead of just saying really?

Best to you,

Roberta

[jobeterob]

Originally posted by Boikluis
"Hallelujah! Sometimes reading posts in this forum is like living in an alternate universe where marywilson and Martha Reeves sound better than Diana. Really? Really? What can one say after a statement like that but. Really?"


What I think needs to be commented on is that on this Forum, we are not dealing with your average "joe on the street" that knows a couple of Motown songs - like My Girl and Stop in the Name of Love, and who thinks Otis Redding and Aretha Franklin are "Motown". On SD, we are people who know all the songs, all the background singers on the songs, what songs "should" have been hits, who "should" have had more successful careers etc.

It's different on a Soul Music Forum, especially one that has run for years than it would be in the American Idol audience.

In the American Idol audience, you will get a lot of vague looks if you mention the names of Temptations, Supremes, and Vandellas ~ and perhaps even Martha Reeves. You won't get those vague looks on SD - these people are known here.

Therefore, we can't always expect that everyone will agree and bow to the suggestion that it's all about Diane, Diana, Diana. The lady was great; she is American music history; but.............Martha Reeves did sing Dancing in the Street, more American music history.

[jillfoster]

I agree that RTL was not a bad show. I saw it in Toronto in 2000 and it was wonderful.

Yes, the rumour is out there [[and I say rumour, because I don't think SFX or Diana ever officially confirmed this), that SFX wanted Diana to extend the tour for three years and when Diana refused, they cancelled the tour. Many fans think that this means the tour was not cancelled due to poor ticket sales, but rather because Diana said "no". I do not think this is the case. From an accounting perspective, if SFX wanted to extend the tour, then they were likely doing so because the up-front fixed costs for the tour were huge. By extending it, perhaps they were hoping that the losses would eventually turn into a profit, especially if they were to bring the tour to Europe. It sounds like Diana did not want to do that, so SFX pulled the plug sooner, rather than later, to reduce the damage. This is my personal assessment/opinion, not fact. At the end of the day, the tour didn't do well.

And this makes total sense. SFX is in the business to make money, and if that tour was making it, there is no way in HELL they would be pulling the plug on it. Anything else is desperate fans grasping at straws.

But back to the original topic... much has been said about the performances of "People", and Flo did sound nice, but sorry... Mary walked away with that song. I would ahve come away from that concert mad as a hornet that Mary Wilson wasn't leading the group on all of the slow numbers.

[antceleb12]

Thank you, Smark21, for posting my video [[and by "my," I mean the video I uploaded)!

I find this turn in conversation very interesting. One member remarked that Rock 'n' Roll is "sexist." That's very interesting. I've never thought about it like that, since I did not grow up in that era. I could be totally off-base here, but could it be that the Supremes' lack of iconic status in comparision to the Beatles and the Beach Boys be due in part to the fact that the Supremes were female? I mean, look at their sales records - hit after hit, album after album. Everything about the Supremes was idolized back in the day [[even their hair!). People had their own favorite Supreme and they each had their own distinctive personality. Now today, if you ask anyone who Mary Wilson or Florence Ballard are, you'd get a blank look [[or, at best, a reference to "Dreamgirls" with Florence). I've often wondered why the Supremes' musical contributions aren't recognized as greatly as they should today.

[jillfoster]

It's because they didn't write their own songs.... or weren't considered vocally "brilliant" like Dusty Springfield or Karen Carpenter.

[BigAl]

Although fans and aficionadi are well aware of the great talent possessed by The Supremes, both individually and collectively, the industry has nonetheless largely dismissed them as a creation of Motown — all "veneer." Further, they have also been regarded as little more than a springboard for Diane's solo career because, by and large, few ever got to see or hear what Mary and Flo could do. So, all in all, the group appeared to the casual observer to be something of a contrivance rather than a creative force. They did not write their own material, did not produce it, and so forth. Then, when they "went Vegas," that effectively ended any real interest from the R&R and R&B sectors, leaving them to be perceived as a solid mainstream light-pop act, but, sadly, also gave them the reputation of having little actual musical substance, when nothing could have been further from the truth.

[detmotownguy]

Although fans and aficionadi are well aware of the great talent possessed by The Supremes, both individually and collectively, the industry has nonetheless largely dismissed them as a creation of Motown — all "veneer." Further, they have also been regarded as little more than a springboard for Diane's solo career because, by and large, few ever got to see or hear what Mary and Flo could do. So, all in all, the group appeared to the casual observer to be something of a contrivance rather than a creative force. They did not write their own material, did not produce it, and so forth. Then, when they "went Vegas," that effectively ended any real interest from the R&R and R&B sectors, leaving them to be perceived as a solid mainstream light-pop act, but, sadly, also gave them the reputation of having little actual musical substance, when nothing could have been further from the truth.

In Detroit anyway, most of us had our fav Supreme photo tacked to the bedroom wall along with other artists as well. Maybe in my neighborhood we we we more than casual observers because we all had our fav Sup. They will hopefully will remain the top female group of all time.

I have heard others say that their image might be over the top; affecting their ability to attract new fans to buy their music. Does anyone know if their music sales are stable? It would be interesting to know what the age demographic and if the buyer is new or a replacement buyer.

[jobeterob]

I posted some Soundscan figures for Diana Ross from the 90's ~ a couple times in the past.

As you can see from the Hip O releases, Ross still sells reasonably steadily; you could tell that from Blue as well and I Love You. The Diana Ross and the Supremes releases on Hip O would not be made if they didn't sell.

But CD sales overall have collapsed so it doesn't really matter how they sell in relation to other heritage artists - because they've all collapsed. I think some record companies are not paying artists for digital downloads because it wasn't in their initial contracts.

I suppose it is true that the Supremes have been ignored, but that is probably because the recognition has gone to Diana Ross. I'm not really sure what else there is to award her with ~ a yearly Grammy and an Oscar I guess. But sadly, if she gets all these awards and recognitions, they are not also going to be given to the Supremes.

But is that really any different with Smokey Robinson and the Miracles? Gladys Knight & the Pips?

[helga]

Music sales in general seem to be down. Digital and physical. People are downloading for free and streaming on Youtube. The internet has changed our way of life.

[antceleb12]

I posted some Soundscan figures for Diana Ross from the 90's ~ a couple times in the past.

As you can see from the Hip O releases, Ross still sells reasonably steadily; you could tell that from Blue as well and I Love You. The Diana Ross and the Supremes releases on Hip O would not be made if they didn't sell.

But CD sales overall have collapsed so it doesn't really matter how they sell in relation to other heritage artists - because they've all collapsed. I think some record companies are not paying artists for digital downloads because it wasn't in their initial contracts.

I suppose it is true that the Supremes have been ignored, but that is probably because the recognition has gone to Diana Ross. I'm not really sure what else there is to award her with ~ a yearly Grammy and an Oscar I guess. But sadly, if she gets all these awards and recognitions, they are not also going to be given to the Supremes.

But is that really any different with Smokey Robinson and the Miracles? Gladys Knight & the Pips?

Very good points. I hadn't thought about that.

As to your last question, I think its different because for the Supremes only because their musical success at the time was only rivaled by the Beatles, essentially. As someone pointed out, they outshined the Beach Boys in sales, yet their name appears to be more known to the general listener.

[smark21]

I think BigAl nails it that one reason why the Supremes aren’t as valued as some of their contemporaries is because they went Vegas. And they didn’t go Vegas after the hits dried up, like many acts do, but they did so at the peak of their commercial success. While The Beatles and Brian Wilson continued to innovate and push the culture along, Motown pushed the Supremes backwards in a musical sense with their live bookings and shows.

Also one has to consider what fans grew up to do with their lives. The Beatles managed to have a few fans grow up to become influential music writers, critics and historians. Though there have been trashy books written about The Beatles, there’s also been a number of intelligent and well research articles and books about them. Who do the Supremes have as chrnoiclers? J. Randy Taraborelli, Mark Ribovsky, a high school hockey coach in Illinois with a grudge against Mary Wilson, and Tony Turner.

[jobeterob]

The Beatles managed to have a few fans grow up to become influential music writers, critics and historians. Though there have been trashy books written about The Beatles, there’s also been a number of intelligent and well research articles and books about them. Who do the Supremes have as chrnoiclers? J. Randy Taraborelli, Mark Ribovsky, a high school hockey coach in Illinois with a grudge against Mary Wilson, and Tony Turner.[/QUOTE]


LOL.

The trash books haven't really helped anyone take any of it seriously.

Does Tarraborelli belong in the same class as the others?

But in fairness, it isn't just the Supremes. It's all the rest of Motown too that at times is not taken seriously, or not as seriously as the white guitar bands. But I'm not sure there is a lot of cause for complaint by the Supremes or at least not Diana.

[bradsupremes]

It's an old dead white men club.

[skooldem1]

How interesting that both Florence and Mary were given breakout leads here. When I saw them, Flo had the first couple of verses, then Diane took the final chorus, and finally Flo led them all in at the very end.

Quite interesting. This was suppose to be the song that Flo sang, then Diana stole it from her. But looks like not only was it still in the act, but Mary actually shared the lead. I never cared for the song too much. That last note ruins it.

[antceleb12]

Quite interesting. This was suppose to be the song that Flo sang, then Diana stole it from her. But looks like not only was it still in the act, but Mary actually shared the lead. I never cared for the song too much. That last note ruins it.

Yes. In all of the books, its reported that Flo's spotlight was taken away during their first Copa gig in the summer of '65. However, this is over a year later and she's still singing it. I wonder if the famous Copa story was a myth or not, and when the number was permanently taken away from Flo. Also, that last note is quite shrill [[it seems Diana is flat and overpowering Flo when she shouldn't be). I'm wondering if there is a higher quality audio/video recording of this concert somewhere.

[smark21]

I think the arrangement that was written for The Supremes version of People is dreadful…just a dull dirge. Doesn’t really matter who was singing lead on it. And yes, that last note is true chalkboard scratcher of a note.

[George Solomon]

I hesitate to post on topics like this one and I hope I don't regret it.
I have to start by saying I loved Florence. When I was growing up she was my favorite Supreme and I think she had a fantastic voice. There has been so much written about this rendition of "People" and in every version we've uncovered at Motown we've never found any evidence that it was a showstopping blockbuster solo by Flo. I think the story has been exaggerated over the years. It was a group ballad and Flo was certainly featured on solo lines. From the beginning Diana sang the slow middle section. In my opinion the only Supreme truly featured on this number was Mary when she took over that middle part as in the Orient or an unreleased live recording from the Roostertail. She really made the most of it.
Of course everyone has recollections that are going to differ but Gil Askey once told me that it was Florence who didn't feel up to singing "People" at the Copa. I believe she was recovering from the flu. This would also explain whey she opted not to sing her solo verse in "Enjoy Yourself" at the same engagement. He said there were other times when she would ask that the song be dropped as well and that Florence was under the weather more often than Diana and Mary.
Again, Flo was a great talent and had some very fine moment including "Ain't That Good News". If you want to really hear Florence sing, listen to that track!

[RossHolloway]

I hesitate to post on topics like this one and I hope I don't regret it.
I have to start by saying I loved Florence. When I was growing up she was my favorite Supreme and I think she had a fantastic voice. There has been so much written about this rendition of "People" and in every version we've uncovered at Motown we've never found any evidence that it was a showstopping blockbuster solo by Flo. I think the story has been exaggerated over the years. It was a group ballad and Flo was certainly featured on solo lines. From the beginning Diana sang the slow middle section. In my opinion the only Supreme truly featured on this number was Mary when she took over that middle part as in the Orient or an unreleased live recording from the Roostertail. She really made the most of it.
Of course everyone has recollections that are going to differ but Gil Askey once told me that it was Florence who didn't feel up to singing "People" at the Copa. I believe she was recovering from the flu. This would also explain whey she opted not to sing her solo verse in "Enjoy Yourself" at the same engagement. He said there were other times when she would ask that the song be dropped as well and that Florence was under the weather more often than Diana and Mary.
Again, Flo was a great talent and had some very fine moment including "Ain't That Good News". If you want to really hear Florence sing, listen to that track!

George Solomon, I personally enjoy your insight and any detail you add to ANY discussion on this board.

[ejluther]

Thanks for the post, George...

[rod_rick]

I hesitate to post on topics like this one and I hope I don't regret it.
I have to start by saying I loved Florence. When I was growing up she was my favorite Supreme and I think she had a fantastic voice. There has been so much written about this rendition of "People" and in every version we've uncovered at Motown we've never found any evidence that it was a showstopping blockbuster solo by Flo. I think the story has been exaggerated over the years. It was a group ballad and Flo was certainly featured on solo lines. From the beginning Diana sang the slow middle section. In my opinion the only Supreme truly featured on this number was Mary when she took over that middle part as in the Orient or an unreleased live recording from the Roostertail. She really made the most of it.
Of course everyone has recollections that are going to differ but Gil Askey once told me that it was Florence who didn't feel up to singing "People" at the Copa. I believe she was recovering from the flu. This would also explain whey she opted not to sing her solo verse in "Enjoy Yourself" at the same engagement. He said there were other times when she would ask that the song be dropped as well and that Florence was under the weather more often than Diana and Mary.
Again, Flo was a great talent and had some very fine moment including "Ain't That Good News". If you want to really hear Florence sing, listen to that track!

Whew George I'm glad you said it LOL, but you are right on. Oh Holy Night and Florence full version of Silent Night are also good representation of Florence.

[antceleb12]

I hesitate to post on topics like this one and I hope I don't regret it.
I have to start by saying I loved Florence. When I was growing up she was my favorite Supreme and I think she had a fantastic voice. There has been so much written about this rendition of "People" and in every version we've uncovered at Motown we've never found any evidence that it was a showstopping blockbuster solo by Flo. I think the story has been exaggerated over the years. It was a group ballad and Flo was certainly featured on solo lines. From the beginning Diana sang the slow middle section. In my opinion the only Supreme truly featured on this number was Mary when she took over that middle part as in the Orient or an unreleased live recording from the Roostertail. She really made the most of it.
Of course everyone has recollections that are going to differ but Gil Askey once told me that it was Florence who didn't feel up to singing "People" at the Copa. I believe she was recovering from the flu. This would also explain whey she opted not to sing her solo verse in "Enjoy Yourself" at the same engagement. He said there were other times when she would ask that the song be dropped as well and that Florence was under the weather more often than Diana and Mary.
Again, Flo was a great talent and had some very fine moment including "Ain't That Good News". If you want to really hear Florence sing, listen to that track!

George, I was JUST about to ask about the Roostertail performance, as I just read it in my new copy of "At the Copa!" Very interesting that you say Flo OPTED to drop the number and was not forced out of it as many would like to suggest.

Also, George, if you don't mind me asking, you mentioned "in every version we've uncovered..." - how many versions of "People" [[with Florence) are there? I was always curious to see how many shows she sang it in. Finally, if you don't mind me asking, you briefly mentioned in the liner notes to "At the Copa" the famous unreleased recording of "The Supremes In the Orient." I think many of us have seen low-quality clips of that special [[like the one I have posted on Youtube above), but do you know how much footage of those concerts exist?

[George Solomon]

There is the "People" studio version used on There's A Place For Us and the 1964 live version used on the Where Did Our Love Go Expanded. There are a few other early live performances but we used the best on the WDOLG expanded. And they sang it at the Motortown Revue in Paris but audio problems made it unreleasable [[only Mary's mic was on). They obviously sang this song quite a bit in the early years. After the Roostertail show in late 66 there are no more recorded performances of the song.
The Supremes In The Orient is something that Motown Productions have [[or had). Even their best copy isn't pristine. I don't think it was recorded very well. Obviously there is or was a lot more footage from the unedited special but I have no idea where that would be.

[antceleb12]

There is the "People" studio version used on There's A Place For Us and the 1964 live version used on the Where Did Our Love Go Expanded. There are a few other early live performances but we used the best on the WDOLG expanded. And they sang it at the Motortown Revue in Paris but audio problems made it unreleasable [[only Mary's mic was on). They obviously sang this song quite a bit in the early years. After the Roostertail show in late 66 there are no more recorded performances of the song.
The Supremes In The Orient is something that Motown Productions have [[or had). Even their best copy isn't pristine. I don't think it was recorded very well. Obviously there is or was a lot more footage from the unedited special but I have no idea where that would be.

Thanks a lot! I greatly appreciate it!

[franjoy56]

There is the "People" studio version used on There's A Place For Us and the 1964 live version used on the Where Did Our Love Go Expanded. There are a few other early live performances but we used the best on the WDOLG expanded. And they sang it at the Motortown Revue in Paris but audio problems made it unreleasable [[only Mary's mic was on). They obviously sang this song quite a bit in the early years. After the Roostertail show in late 66 there are no more recorded performances of the song.
The Supremes In The Orient is something that Motown Productions have [[or had). Even their best copy isn't pristine. I don't think it was recorded very well. Obviously there is or was a lot more footage from the unedited special but I have no idea where that would be.

The best version of People is on the pink box set, where Flo nails it. I saw the Supremes at the Copa in 66 and all three shared the song. Flo's solo of "Long Gone Lover" is also a real treat. Hopefully we will hear more of Flo from the vaults she was a great singer.

[jobeterob]

People was never one of my favorite songs; I didn't like it by Barbara Streisand or any Supremes; it was a good choice to drop.

Your a good man George. Setting Supremes history straight is important.

If you want to hear Florence at her best, it definitely isn't on People or on her solo album; it's on Manhattan, O Holy Night, Ain't That Good News, Nothing But Heartaches and You Keep Me Hangin On.

[johnjeb]

If you want to hear Florence at her best, it definitely isn't on People or on her solo album; it's on Manhattan, O Holy Night, Ain't That Good News, Nothing But Heartaches and You Keep Me Hangin On.

Maybe not "at her best", but I really love "Save Me A Star".

[George Solomon]

I want to share the reason for my post because it's actually a funny story.
I met a guy who said he was a huge Supremes fan. Actually he was a big "Dreamgirls" fan. He began telling me what really happened with the Supremes... obviously he didn't know who he was talking to. :-)
He said that nightly, Florence would take center stage and do a solo rendition of "People". It was so powerful that every night there would be a five minute standing ovation. Not only was Diana Ross livid and demanded it be cut from the show, but Barbra Streisand contacted Motown and insisted it be cut as well.
Like the tale by the time it's been told by more than one... It's growing.

[Jimi LaLumia]

Mr.Solomon, can you comment on the likelyhood of "TCB" and "GIT/Broadway" ever seeing the light of day on HD DVD?..is there a holdup over rights or just no desire to release these gems? [[not to mention "MOTOWN 25")..

[Glenpwood]

I want to share the reason for my post because it's actually a funny story.
I met a guy who said he was a huge Supremes fan. Actually he was a big "Dreamgirls" fan. He began telling me what really happened with the Supremes... obviously he didn't know who he was talking to. :-)
He said that nightly, Florence would take center stage and do a solo rendition of "People". It was so powerful that every night there would be a five minute standing ovation. Not only was Diana Ross livid and demanded it be cut from the show, but Barbra Streisand contacted Motown and insisted it be cut as well.
Like the tale by the time it's been told by more than one... It's growing.

Thank You George for your insight and all the love you show all The Supremes. It's very true that all tales get larger in the re-telling.the only thing that doesn't seem to get larger on the Internet are people's ages and waistlines lol. I suppose that's why you and Andy give us expanded editions and not straight dull reissues. Looking forward to Baby It's Me, Symphony, or any other projects you have coming up...

With gratitude and respect!
Glen

[antceleb12]

I want to share the reason for my post because it's actually a funny story.
I met a guy who said he was a huge Supremes fan. Actually he was a big "Dreamgirls" fan. He began telling me what really happened with the Supremes... obviously he didn't know who he was talking to. :-)
He said that nightly, Florence would take center stage and do a solo rendition of "People". It was so powerful that every night there would be a five minute standing ovation. Not only was Diana Ross livid and demanded it be cut from the show, but Barbra Streisand contacted Motown and insisted it be cut as well.
Like the tale by the time it's been told by more than one... It's growing.

It's funny you mention that because I remember a friend of mine sent me this link a while back with this tale that is very much related to yours:


FLORENCE BALLARD:

According to Tony Turner, author of "All That Glittered," The Supremes were rehearsing for their Copa debut. Florence Ballard started singing "People." It sounded fabulous. She was tearing the song up, inside and out, it sounded nothing like the Streisand version. Everybody was listening until Harvey Fuqua said, "There's going to be a change in the show." 'People,' will not be in the performance.

Flo exploded, saying, "She [[Diana Ross) will never get away with it." Flo storms out, she's ranting and raving down the sidewalk, 'Flo's not taking this shit.' When we get back to the Plaza, Flo held her door wide open with a chair. She looked at me and said, "Tony, it's like a game of concentration. When you get a take card you get to take your opponent's prize. Berry Gordy is Diana's take card. Diana never cared about Berry until she knew I was interested in him. He and I used to get along just great until that b**ch came along."

Get Mary on the phone! She stayed there with the door open, she complained to everyone coming back from rehearsal. Mary arrived, she just sat there, not saying anything, as Flo went on and on. Diana and Berry had the sense not to go near Flo's suite that night.

Flo continued cursing and said, "I'll bet you that Diana Ross is going to be up on that Copa stage singing my goddam song!" Sure enough, after a few days, "People" was put back into the show and now it was Diana up on the stage singing the song."

After the show, Flo was in the dressing room, she started to belt out "People," nobody in the dressing room said a word. Flo did the whole song in a cappella. She held the last note for five minutes, outside the dressing room, people began clapping and stomping their feet.
http://panachereport.com/channels/old_school_update/FlorenceBallard.htm

I couldn't help but laugh.

[Roberta75]

It's funny you mention that because I remember a friend of mine sent me this link a while back with this tale that is very much related to yours:


http://panachereport.com/channels/old_school_update/FlorenceBallard.htm

I couldn't help but laugh.

Tony Turner had all theses tales about him and Flo and led the reader to believe he and Flo were BFF's yet there is barely a photograph of the two of them together. His books were very amusing but basically fiction IMO.

Roberta

[jobeterob]

Very good Antceleb12; some of the best research I've seen.

I just tried to hold a note for 5 minutes; at 30 seconds I started to go blue.

[George Solomon]

Mr.Solomon, can you comment on the likelyhood of "TCB" and "GIT/Broadway" ever seeing the light of day on HD DVD?..is there a holdup over rights or just no desire to release these gems? [[not to mention "MOTOWN 25")..
I certainly think there is desire to release these on DVD. I don't know all the legalities but I think there is joint ownership, at least for TCB and GIT. It's just a matter of everyone agreeing. I sure wish everyone would pick up the pace!

[BayouMotownMan]

I have heard on several occasions plans to at least release the TCB special, but it never pans out. Like George said because of the joint ownership it has to be mutually decided. I would also think having so many of these performers deceased with estates run by others, that this complicates things as well

[Jimi LaLumia]

Is there anything the fan base can do to speed these things up? perhaps the sales of Diana Ross/Central Park and last year's Ed Sullivan DVDs might help?..Is it about money..cos no one's making any while these gems just lay on the shelf, gathering dust..

[jobeterob]

Who owns TCB?

NBC and George Schlatter Productions? Motown too? Motown Productions?

[BayouMotownMan]

I'm thinking if Sparkle with Whitney turns out to be a big hit it could re-ignite some interest in releasing these specials

[luke]

If you dont think rock and roll is sexist look at the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.

[smark21]

I remember really looking forward to People when I bought the box set and it turned out to be a big letdown. I fell for the hype of what Flo was supposed to be as a lead singer. The arrangement, as mentioned before, was dreary and dull. But I thought Flo’s lead part was tentative and uncertain in her phrasing. Diana elevated the record at the end with her part as she just knows how to sing a lyric. I think that due to Dreamgirls, Flo’s reputation as a singer was seriously overinflated and people tend to confuse the real Flo Ballard with the fictional Effie.

[skooldem1]

I remember really looking forward to People when I bought the box set and it turned out to be a big letdown. I fell for the hype of what Flo was supposed to be as a lead singer. The arrangement, as mentioned before, was dreary and dull. But I thought Flo’s lead part was tentative and uncertain in her phrasing. Diana elevated the record at the end with her part as she just knows how to sing a lyric. I think that due to Dreamgirls, Flo’s reputation as a singer was seriously overinflated and people tend to confuse the real Flo Ballard with the fictional Effie.


I know this won't come as a surprise to anyone, but I feel the same way about "People". When Diana comes in, she brings the lyrics to life, in a way that Florence Ballard didn't. It is the best song when comparing the 2 voices.

[johnjeb]

I remember really looking forward to People when I bought the box set and it turned out to be a big letdown. I fell for the hype of what Flo was supposed to be as a lead singer. The arrangement, as mentioned before, was dreary and dull. But I thought Flo’s lead part was tentative and uncertain in her phrasing. Diana elevated the record at the end with her part as she just knows how to sing a lyric. I think that due to Dreamgirls, Flo’s reputation as a singer was seriously overinflated and people tend to confuse the real Flo Ballard with the fictional Effie.

I agree, as well. Not a fan of this song by The Supremes.

I enjoy Flo's voice on the released material from their early albums and a couple of unreleased songs such as "Save Me A Star". But in most of the unreleased songs her phrasing could use some work. Whether it was due to lack of confidence, experience or just not enough takes, many of the songs, even Silent Night and O Holy Night, are unremarkable.

By the time A' Go-Go was released in 1966 I had all The Supremes albums and enjoyed hearing solos by Mary and Florence on those early releases. I was disappointed in later years that there were no more solos by them. I definitely think Diana Ross should have been the main lead but a few leads by the other ladies on albums would have been most welcome by me. Maybe then we would have heard better productions and more confident and professional singing.

[Jimi LaLumia]

I must confess that i was part of the 'poor Flo' chorus for years,as we all like to root for the 'underdog' in retrospect, but in recent times,having always been a Ross fan first and foremost, I realize that Flo wasn't poor by any stretch,she was a member of the #1 US group of the 1960's ,second only to The Beatles..she had a powerful voice, but no vocal finesse,which Ross had a mastery of..fighting with the label president, who is your employer, not your equal in the work place; getting fat and drunk, are not the most ideal keys to moving up in the entertainment world..she should have enjoyed the ride,and took a shot at the lead spot when Ross went solo,something that Flo apparently didn't want Ross to do..no one shoved 'poor Flo' into a hole,she dug it herself and jumped right in..sad but true..

[TheMotownManiac]

I agree 100% but I think a lot of it has to do with Diana Ross avoiding dealing with Mary Wilson at all costs. If all 3 were open to working together, promoters and the media would be all over it. I'm sure Diana would be wanting to celebrate the 50th if she could chance being with Mary. I don't believe she isn't proud of their achievement. I also think her kids would do everything possible to discourage their mom suffering again at the hands of Crazy Mary. It's too bad for sure. Too bad for DMC and too bad for us.




Sometimes it is easy to forget just how huge The Supremes were. If this were the MTV days, they would have dedicated an entire special to "The Supremes in the Orient". Unfortunately, The Supremes have not even received a proper 50th Anniversary celebration. Though The Beach Boys also were very popular, The Supremes eclipsed them as the most popular American group from 1964-1969. And that was not only the singles, but, multi-platinum selling albums in "Where Did Our Love Go", "More Hits by", "Sing Holland, Dozier, Holland", "A Go Go" amongst others. No acts sold the types of quantities that were sold in the 90s, even The Beatles. However, TLC and The Spice Girls have more registered RIAA sales than The Supremes. But in actuality, The Supremes still reign as the #1 girl group in the world, to this day.....if you extrapolated their sales into current numbers, those 20 million albums sold, would be much closer to 50 million albums.
But here comes The Beach Boys with a new album and a new tour. Of course, neither was possible for The Supremes, but, The Beatles are down to two living members and they still get first class promotion.
The Beach Boys resurgence was handled so well that I ended up buying "The Pet Sounds: Complete Sessions".
But The Supremes' 50th Anniversary has practically come and gone with only another compilation and the Ed Sullivan appearances on DVD. You would have thought that VH1 and BET would have done specials on both them and The Temptations. Why wasn't "T.C.B." and/or "G.I.T." not re-air on PBS. Every time that iTunes promotes one of their compilations, especially "#1s", the sales are quite impressive. So I honestly feel it is a matter of Motown/Universal does not have the vision to insure that their legacy lives on.
It doesn't take a marketing whiz to see a lost opportunity.
The Supremes television specials should have re-aired on PBS, VH1 and BET!
i'm sure if Berry Gordy was still at the helm, the legacy of his Mount Rushmore roster would be properly promoted.
How will a new generation know without being told? How will the Baby Boomers be reignited without proper promotion?
Sure rock acts have a different trajectory, but, surely if The Supremes were properly promoted, their 50th Anniversary would have been a lot more celebratory.

[Jimi LaLumia]

everyone still pictures the group as hair pulling banshees thanks to the 'poor Flo' nonsense,and "DreamGirls" certainly didn't help..

[TheMotownManiac]

Yes, definitely. Motown saw a huge decline in sales of Supremes reissues and hits compilations after Dreamgirl came out. It's sad because a lot of what Mary said was untrue or exaggerated - all meant to mislead and create a fantasy where Ross was evil and Mary & Flo her victims. Turns out, we were all victims of Mary - including Diana, Cindy and Mary herself. You gotta remember that Mary couldn't get a record deal, so she needed to get money somehow and her live gigs weren't getting her much bank. Mary has made much more money with her books than her dismal 35 year solo recording career.





Not trying to imply anything, but does anyone feel that the Supreme Legacy was greatly tarnished when Mary released her book?

[smark21]

Blink MOtown Maniac Blink!

[rod_rick]

I remember really looking forward to People when I bought the box set and it turned out to be a big letdown. I fell for the hype of what Flo was supposed to be as a lead singer. The arrangement, as mentioned before, was dreary and dull. But I thought Flo’s lead part was tentative and uncertain in her phrasing. Diana elevated the record at the end with her part as she just knows how to sing a lyric. I think that due to Dreamgirls, Flo’s reputation as a singer was seriously overinflated and people tend to confuse the real Flo Ballard with the fictional Effie.

Well I don't think it was just Mary's book or DreamGirls that portrayed Florence as this fabulous singer. A lot of others have said the same. Florence had alot of potential to be a great singer had she been developed. Imo it take more than a great voice to be a lead singer, some of the early stuff was ok but then you hear Aint That Good News and you knew Flo had the goods. What is the last recorded version of Florence singing People, I would like to do a comparison just to see if she improved on her phrasing.

[antceleb12]

A lot of people say that Florence and Mary were mere stepping stones for Diana's solo career. I completely disagree. Even before all of the rumors about group turmoil went floating about [[so there was no underdog to fight for), fans went NUTS for Florence and Mary. Florence remarked in an interview that while in the Orient in 1966, Berry noted to her that the men took a great interest in her [[partly for her physical form!). Also, it is believed that Gordy had a brief interest in a film career with Ballard. I think had Mary and Flo been given the same kind of grooming Diana received over that 10-year period, they could have easily become stars in their own right. After all, producers fought over which Supreme should sing on "WDOLG," and Diana was NOT looked on positively by many as the best choice for lead at first!

It took me a while to realize that, in the end, Mary, Florence, and Diana were best friends - even through the years in which Florence was down and out. Frankly, I think that each of the Supreme ladies have moved on [[even Florence got over her issues with Diana), and its the media and deluded fans that are stuck in this place where they think they're doing anyone justice by bashing other Supremes.

[Penny]

I wasn't there so I don't know. I do know that Mr. Solomon's word is as good as gold so I thank him for his comments.

In the past I have either heard interviews or read interviews where Diana and Mary both state that Florence had the best and most powerful voice of the three of them. They both showed great respect for Florence's vocal abilities.

What is, is. We will never know what might have been had Florence gotten help and had proper management and received good advice. God rest her soul.

Penny:eek:

[johnjeb]

I kept thinking of Florence Ballard when I saw the Unsung episode on Stacy Lattisaw a few years ago.

Stacy had the singing talent but not the drive to be in show business, so she retired to be with her family and friends whom she missed - and is a much happier and fulfilled person.

That seems to be the same conflict Flo was facing. Diana and Mary must have been exhausted by Flo's career ambivalence, professional behavior and personal mood swings. Maybe they felt what was best for their friend, and also for their own careers and peace of mind, was for Flo to move on so she could be happier.

[antceleb12]

I kept thinking of Florence Ballard when I saw the Unsung episode on Stacy Lattisaw a few years ago.

Stacy had the singing talent but not the drive to be in show business, so she retired to be with her family and friends whom she missed - and is a much happier and fulfilled person.

That seems to be the same conflict Flo was facing. Diana and Mary must have been exhausted by Flo's career ambivalence, professional behavior and personal mood swings. Maybe they felt what was best for their friend, and also for their own careers and peace of mind, was for Flo to move on so she could be happier.

I think part of it was not having the motivation, but I think it greatly had to do with her pride. She refused to let her morals be compromised and wouldn't let Gordy take her for a ride. The last issue got her into hot water quite often. Florence would talk in interviews about how all she wanted to do was sing, but wouldn't keep quiet if something upset her.

Also, I definitely think her rape had very negative after effects on her. She never sought counselling, and that was a big mistake. Had she sought therapy, she might not have had as much mental turmoil as she did.

[soulballad]

The Florence Ballard and Supremes story is extremely complex. Most of their story have been exaggerated both with the good and the bad. The weight issue and the drinking has been made a bigger deal than it really was. Flo drank but they all drank! Flo was curvier but she was always curvier. If weight had been an issue Cindy would have nerver been asked in the group because they were about the same size. Flo was a great singer but she was no Jennifer Holiday [[in fact no Supreme or anyone on Motown ever was a powerhouse vocalist in Jennifers league). Diana was a good vocal stylist perfect for the popish copa/crossover sound. I really dont think Flo cared much about who sang lead, especially after she started to see other things going down at the company inside and outside of the group [[that's another story in itself and water under the bridge) Most of the stuff we get now is simply fans projections.

DMF started off as friends but they became just co-workers and every grouping of Supremes after that were simply just co-workers, which explains why a lot of the magic was gone.

The arrangement to "People" is horrible. The music always reminds me of a school recital. With a little work and a different arrangement it could have worked out just fine. In some parts of the song it seems like Mary's and Diana's vocals are dragging or are off or something. It just seems there was no effort put into making the song a mainstay. Florence should have been given a song that was more of a rocker.

It's really sad that after all the hard work of each Supreme [[and HDH and the funks etc. etc) and all of their major accomplishments that they have become somewhat of a footnote in rock and roll history.

[antceleb12]

It's really sad that after all the hard work of each Supreme [[and HDH and the funks etc. etc) and all of their major accomplishments that they have become somewhat of a footnote in rock and roll history.

I completely agree.

[jobeterob]

Is it true they are a footnote in history? They seems to be the subject of major debate just like the Beach Boys and Beatles and Rolling Stones; the history seems endless..........

And if awards are the issues, yes, the Supremes have been overlooked but the lead singer on the hits hasn't been; I dont know what other awards people think she should receive. And realistically, are the Grammys now going to give a Lifetime Achievement Award to the group? That just isn't in the cards.

I'm never sure I agree when the subject is raised that the Supremes are overlooked, that they didn't receive recognition and awards; perhaps it is true of the group, but not Diana Ross.

[jillfoster]

I have heard on several occasions plans to at least release the TCB special, but it never pans out. Like George said because of the joint ownership it has to be mutually decided. I would also think having so many of these performers deceased with estates run by others, that this complicates things as well

I wouldn't be entirely sure that permission would even be required to release these DVD's. Releases are signed at time of filming, I know almost no actor on a sitcom is asked permission or even compensated when TV series are released on DVD. Unless it is different with singers somehow.

[antceleb12]

Is it true they are a footnote in history? They seems to be the subject of major debate just like the Beach Boys and Beatles and Rolling Stones; the history seems endless..........

And if awards are the issues, yes, the Supremes have been overlooked but the lead singer on the hits hasn't been; I dont know what other awards people think she should receive. And realistically, are the Grammys now going to give a Lifetime Achievement Award to the group? That just isn't in the cards.

I'm never sure I agree when the subject is raised that the Supremes are overlooked, that they didn't receive recognition and awards; perhaps it is true of the group, but not Diana Ross.

I agree that the Supremes are regarded by many as the top female group of all-time...that is, much of the attention gets placed on Diana. But the Supremes do not have the same status as the Beatles. Meaning that if you ask the average Joe to list 10 songs by the Beatles and list all of its members, chances are they can do it. Ask the same question about the Supremes, and you may get "Stop!" or "Hurry Love," and you'll get Diana Ross, but the average Joe does not know "The Happening" [[let's face it, that's a pretty obscure hit these days), or who Florence Ballard or Mary Wilson are.

[jobeterob]

I wouldn't be entirely sure that permission would even be required to release these DVD's. Releases are signed at time of filming, I know almost no actor on a sitcom is asked permission or even compensated when TV series are released on DVD. Unless it is different with singers somehow.

I dont think it is different. At the end, doesn't it says Produced by NBC and Schlatter Productions or something like that? Or Motown?

George refers to "jointly" owned; if the artists matters, there would be dozens and they'd all get 8 cents.

I thought I heard before there was some issue with the Laugh In guy or company that produced it with Berry or NBC.

[franjoy56]

The Florence Ballard and Supremes story is extremely complex. Most of their story have been exaggerated both with the good and the bad. The weight issue and the drinking has been made a bigger deal than it really was. Flo drank but they all drank! Flo was curvier but she was always curvier. If weight had been an issue Cindy would have nerver been asked in the group because they were about the same size. Flo was a great singer but she was no Jennifer Holiday [[in fact no Supreme or anyone on Motown ever was a powerhouse vocalist in Jennifers league). Diana was a good vocal stylist perfect for the popish copa/crossover sound. I really dont think Flo cared much about who sang lead, especially after she started to see other things going down at the company inside and outside of the group [[that's another story in itself and water under the bridge) Most of the stuff we get now is simply fans projections.

DMF started off as friends but they became just co-workers and every grouping of Supremes after that were simply just co-workers, which explains why a lot of the magic was gone.

The arrangement to "People" is horrible. The music always reminds me of a school recital. With a little work and a different arrangement it could have worked out just fine. In some parts of the song it seems like Mary's and Diana's vocals are dragging or are off or something. It just seems there was no effort put into making the song a mainstay. Florence should have been given a song that was more of a rocker.

It's really sad that after all the hard work of each Supreme [[and HDH and the funks etc. etc) and all of their major accomplishments that they have become somewhat of a footnote in rock and roll history.

If that story is true of Flo singing People in her dressing room with everyone outside applauding much to Ross' dismay, then I think Flo should have sung the entire song on the recordings that have been released. Diana cannot hit the high notes like Flo can in that song [[just listen to the Funny Girl version) and yes Ross did get more training in etiquette, grooming and vocal coaching while Mary and Flo sat around. Flo was not given the same training as Ms. Ross and it shows but Flo held her own and the tv performances are proof in the pudding especially "My Favorite Things" and yes maybe they have become just a footnote to many, but to the diehard fans you can never fool us.

[Roberta75]

If that story is true of Flo singing People in her dressing room with everyone outside applauding much to Ross' dismay, then I think Flo should have sung the entire song on the recordings that have been released. Diana cannot hit the high notes like Flo can in that song [[just listen to the Funny Girl version) and yes Ross did get more training in etiquette, grooming and vocal coaching while Mary and Flo sat around. Flo was not given the same training as Ms. Ross and it shows but Flo held her own and the tv performances are proof in the pudding especially "My Favorite Things" and yes maybe they have become just a footnote to many, but to the diehard fans you can never fool us.

Thank you Frances for keeping Flo's legacy alive. Flo's "My Favorite Things" is magnificent but it makes me sad every time I hear it. It makes me think of what might have been had Diane Ross, Mary Wilson and Berry Gordy had shown Florence more kindness and understanding. Tragically that was not to be. Sad, so very very sad.

Roberta

[stephanie]

I still think that Florence Ballard was a strong singer and if given the opportunity she could shine! When I read Tony Turners books I couldnt stop laughing. One of the best fact/fiction books I have ever read. I sometimes wish he would come out and say why there are no pics of him and Flo. If Flo had been in the dressing room singing People like that I think Mary would have told it. That is something that a person would forget.

[johnjeb]

I've seen a couple of posts recently questioning why no pictures have ever surfaced with Flo and Tony Turner. Certainly a good question. I recall seeing him with Mary Wilson on her book tours and performances in the 80s. As I was looking through my Supremes memorabilia last night for some pictures I needed I came across pictures of me at a couple of Mary's events. Lo and behold standing next to me was none other than Tony Turner! I completely forgot I had those pics. I laughed when I saw them. I thought, well at least I have a couple of pictures of me with Tony Turner.

[luke]

It's interesting how this downgrading of Flo [[and often of Mary too) often occurs--more revisionist history. Otis Williams among numerous others have raved about Flo's talent. Do you really think Motown was committed to presenting her in the best possible light??

[Jimi LaLumia]

it's not a downgrading...it's a reality check...the evidence is in the recordings, live performances,and pattern of behavior..

[detmotownguy]

It's interesting how this downgrading of Flo [[and often of Mary too) often occurs--more revisionist history. Otis Williams among numerous others have raved about Flo's talent. Do you really think Motown was committed to presenting her in the best possible light??

Valid comment Luke. It is interesting how many people associated with Motown back in the day were impressed with Flo and her voice. Her version of People was just fine-loud and clear!

[antceleb12]

it's not a downgrading...it's a reality check...the evidence is in the recordings, live performances,and pattern of behavior..

Behavior has little to do with talent. You could have one of the best voices in the world, but be a total diva [[Patti, Dionne, Barbara, anyone?). Also, I happen to think Florence was very talented, as do many, many others. There is and was an audience for her, but just not one Berry wanted to market to. It's not a reality check...people who believe that Florence was talented are equally as correct as those who believe that she wasn't. And how much of Florence do we have in terms of live recordings? Hardly any solos at all.

[Jimi LaLumia]

why should she have solos? she wasn't a lead singer..listen to the solo CD of her ABC Records unreleased album to get an idea of the quality of her solos...

[antceleb12]

why should she have solos? she wasn't a lead singer..listen to the solo CD of her ABC Records unreleased album to get an idea of the quality of her solos...

I have heard it, and yes, its terrible. But her stuff with the Supremes was much better than that - in my opinion. Frankly, I think the production, the songwriting, the songs, and the fact that she was pregnant didn't help. Not trying to make excuses, but I don't think her ABC album and the stuff she did with the Supremes are comparable.

Maybe she could have been a lead singer. Who knows? Diana wasn't exactly mind-blowing when she started out either, but she was developed to be one. And who says who have to be a "lead singer" to have solos? The group started out with all of them sharing leads. And they each had their share of solos for a while. Mary wasn't known for her boisterous singing like Flo was, but after Diane left, she got quite a bit of solos. Grant it, she never became a superstar like Ross, but at least she was able to showcase her abilities - even in the 1970 "Farewell" concert, she had two solos and had some monologues.

[jobeterob]

It's interesting how this downgrading of Flo [[and often of Mary too) often occurs--more revisionist history. Otis Williams among numerous others have raved about Flo's talent. Do you really think Motown was committed to presenting her in the best possible light??


A couple points:

If Motown wasn't committed to presenting Flo in the best possible light, ABC did a much worse job. They made Motown look good. Flo's best work, her remembered work comes from Berry and Motown and the Supremes - her duets with Diana - Manhattan, Nothing But Heartaches, Come See About Me, and Ain't that Good News and O Holy Night.

What's the revision? One version is that Florence and Mary were background singers without much in the way of distinctive voices. Are we trying to revise history to say Florence, at least, had a distinctive voice? Otis would hardly be someone to talk about lead singers and distinctive voices but he definitely might be somebody that could relate to Florence Ballard in addition to being a friend and lover.

[Jimi LaLumia]

one of my very favorite sayings......

"it's lonely at the top........
that's because it's so very crowded at the bottom!"....

[Jimi LaLumia]

and Ross developed from day one, without objection from Mary or Flo in the beginning,because she had charisma and star appeal...neither of the other two did, at least nowhere near the degree of Ross...
both Mary and Flo shined when standing with Diana Ross on stage...
standing on their own?......not so much...

[Roberta75]

one of my very favorite sayings......

"it's lonely at the top........
that's because it's so very crowded at the bottom!"....

And while I believe Diane Ross deserved to be at the top because her voice and drive pushed the Supremes to mega stardom, did Florence really have be be pushed to the bottom and left there? Surely her old friends Diane and Mary could have stuck up for her more and couldn't Mr. Gordy have shown more compassion and paid for Flo to dry out and stay off the liquor? It breaks my heart when I think of poor Flo. Tragic, heartbreaking and tragic. Mercifully Florence is an angel in heaven now, and with her Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. God bless you Flo. You will never be forgotten.

"nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons and daughters of God, being sons and daughters of the resurrection."

Roberta

[franjoy56]

A couple points:

If Motown wasn't committed to presenting Flo in the best possible light, ABC did a much worse job. They made Motown look good. Flo's best work, her remembered work comes from Berry and Motown and the Supremes - her duets with Diana - Manhattan, Nothing But Heartaches, Come See About Me, and Ain't that Good News and O Holy Night.

What's the revision? One version is that Florence and Mary were background singers without much in the way of distinctive voices. Are we trying to revise history to say Florence, at least, had a distinctive voice? Otis would hardly be someone to talk about lead singers and distinctive voices but he definitely might be somebody that could relate to Florence Ballard in addition to being a friend and lover.

I hate these summations on how Flo was not a lead singer and how people still believe that Diana was the Supremes, she was not and without
Mary and to a larger degree Florence Ballard backing the Ross leads on all those tracks where would diana be, Diana would not have made it as a solo singer in 1965, Florence Ballard was a lead singer, just not the kind of lead singer Berry was interested in promoting period. Even on the eve of her Birthday we have detractors who are content in dismissing her as a vocal talent. Perhaps if you heard Flo's lead on "The Night Time is the Right Time" and others she front as the Supremes/Primettes lead singer you detractors would understand there was a distinct difference between a Soul singer which Flo was "Ain't that Good News" "Long Gone Lover" "It makes no difference Now" "Like You Babe" and a pop singer that Diana was "Baby Love" "I hear A Symphony" "My World Is Empty" and in which Berry was intent on promoting even if it meant the Supremes would stop dead in their success. Flo you still reign Supreme and a early Happy Birthday.

[antceleb12]

I hate these summations on how Flo was not a lead singer and how people still believe that Diana was the Supremes, she was not and without
Mary and to a larger degree Florence Ballard backing the Ross leads on all those tracks where would diana be, Diana would not have made it as a solo singer in 1965, Florence Ballard was a lead singer, just not the kind of lead singer Berry was interested in promoting period. Even on the eve of her Birthday we have detractors who are content in dismissing her as a vocal talent. Perhaps if you heard Flo's lead on "The Night Time is the Right Time" and others she front as the Supremes/Primettes lead singer you detractors would understand there was a distinct difference between a Soul singer which Flo was "Ain't that Good News" "Long Gone Lover" "It makes no difference Now" "Like You Babe" and a pop singer that Diana was "Baby Love" "I hear A Symphony" "My World Is Empty" and in which Berry was intent on promoting even if it meant the Supremes would stop dead in their success. Flo you still reign Supreme and a early Happy Birthday.

I agree 100%. Just because Florence wasn't a pop singer, and might not have attracted such a large "white" audience, it doesn't mean Florence wasn't a lead singer. There's more to it than being pop-y. She had the confidence and the will, but wasn't willing to do some of the things that Diana did which made her unpopular among other Motown acts. I love each of the Supremes and think that they could have each found their niche. I also agree that Diana was not the sole reason why she became a success. Flo & Mary provided lush harmonies, and had their own stage patter. And their sound was much more mature than other girl groups' sound of that time.

[ejluther]

Perhaps if you heard Flo's lead on "The Night Time is the Right Time" and others she front as the Supremes/Primettes lead
I wish there were recordings of those early Primette days...

[floyjoy678]

After Diana, Flo definitely had a distinct voice; you're always able to pick her voice out in the background. While Flo was a good background singer I'm not so sure about her being a lead singer. I do like her on "It Makes No Difference Now" [[both versions), "O Holy Night' and...yes "People". I'm a big Florence fan but I will say this when I heard those ABC recordings all I kept thinking to myself was "Really?".

[rod_rick]

A couple points:

If Motown wasn't committed to presenting Flo in the best possible light, ABC did a much worse job. They made Motown look good. Flo's best work, her remembered work comes from Berry and Motown and the Supremes - her duets with Diana - Manhattan, Nothing But Heartaches, Come See About Me, and Ain't that Good News and O Holy Night.

What's the revision? One version is that Florence and Mary were background singers without much in the way of distinctive voices. Are we trying to revise history to say Florence, at least, had a distinctive voice? Otis would hardly be someone to talk about lead singers and distinctive voices but he definitely might be somebody that could relate to Florence Ballard in addition to being a friend and lover.

Rob I would to disagree with you when said "Otis would hardly be someone to talk about lead singers and distinctive voices" because Otis knew he wasn't a lead singer and you have to admit that he always have great singers that sing lead while he stayed in the background. Some can recognize the potential and I would say that Florence had potential to be a great leadd vocalist.

[rod_rick]

And while I believe Diane Ross deserved to be at the top because her voice and drive pushed the Supremes to mega stardom, did Florence really have be be pushed to the bottom and left there? Surely her old friends Diane and Mary could have stuck up for her more and couldn't Mr. Gordy have shown more compassion and paid for Flo to dry out and stay off the liquor? It breaks my heart when I think of poor Flo. Tragic, heartbreaking and tragic. Mercifully Florence is an angel in heaven now, and with her Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. God bless you Flo. You will never be forgotten.

"nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons and daughters of God, being sons and daughters of the resurrection."

Roberta

Roberta
The only way that would have worked is if Florence wanted it for herself. I hate to say it, but Florence brought a lot of that on herself.

[soulballad]

You guys this is going no where! I think Florence was a great singer, a great lead singer and a great talent and beauty but that is my opinon. You are NEVER going to convence those who dont want to see the good. The fact is this is just like the Dems Vs. the Repubs. Those who are for President Obama can find the good that he's done and those who oppose him only can see the bad! It's not going away and it's really a waste of time. The best advise I can give [[I know nobody asked!) is to enjoy the music and the old clips etc. and just ignore the crazies! In the big scheme of things this ranks as very small.

[marv2]

Sometimes it is easy to forget just how huge The Supremes were. If this were the MTV days, they would have dedicated an entire special to "The Supremes in the Orient". Unfortunately, The Supremes have not even received a proper 50th Anniversary celebration. Though The Beach Boys also were very popular, The Supremes eclipsed them as the most popular American group from 1964-1969. And that was not only the singles, but, multi-platinum selling albums in "Where Did Our Love Go", "More Hits by", "Sing Holland, Dozier, Holland", "A Go Go" amongst others. No acts sold the types of quantities that were sold in the 90s, even The Beatles. However, TLC and The Spice Girls have more registered RIAA sales than The Supremes. But in actuality, The Supremes still reign as the #1 girl group in the world, to this day.....if you extrapolated their sales into current numbers, those 20 million albums sold, would be much closer to 50 million albums.
But here comes The Beach Boys with a new album and a new tour. Of course, neither was possible for The Supremes, but, The Beatles are down to two living members and they still get first class promotion.
The Beach Boys resurgence was handled so well that I ended up buying "The Pet Sounds: Complete Sessions".
But The Supremes' 50th Anniversary has practically come and gone with only another compilation and the Ed Sullivan appearances on DVD. You would have thought that VH1 and BET would have done specials on both them and The Temptations. Why wasn't "T.C.B." and/or "G.I.T." not re-air on PBS. Every time that iTunes promotes one of their compilations, especially "#1s", the sales are quite impressive. So I honestly feel it is a matter of Motown/Universal does not have the vision to insure that their legacy lives on.
It doesn't take a marketing whiz to see a lost opportunity.
The Supremes television specials should have re-aired on PBS, VH1 and BET!
i'm sure if Berry Gordy was still at the helm, the legacy of his Mount Rushmore roster would be properly promoted.
How will a new generation know without being told? How will the Baby Boomers be reignited without proper promotion?
Sure rock acts have a different trajectory, but, surely if The Supremes were properly promoted, their 50th Anniversary would have been a lot more celebratory.

Great post. I agree on all points.

[marv2]

The best version of People is on the pink box set, where Flo nails it. I saw the Supremes at the Copa in 66 and all three shared the song. Flo's solo of "Long Gone Lover" is also a real treat. Hopefully we will hear more of Flo from the vaults she was a great singer.

Florence was a superb singer. Given right material, she would always knock it out of the park. The same can be said of Mary Wilson. She will knock it out of the park next month in Detroit some 50 years after she started singing professionally there!

[jobeterob]

Rod: I blew it with Otis. He must know lead singers and every other kind of singer nearly perfectly because he's employed them all to keep his group going endlessly for 50 years plus! Slipped on that one.

[luke]

Of course Otis being there at the time and only singing background he is known for being delusional so never listen to what he has to say. lol My goodness people will say anything to further their agenda.

[rod_rick]

Florence was a superb singer. Given right material, she would always knock it out of the park. The same can be said of Mary Wilson. She will knock it out of the park next month in Detroit some 50 years after she started singing professionally there!

I've been listening to the last Tammie Terrell project that I was released and my opinion I think some of it would have been good for Florence. As far as producers, Ashford and Simpson would have done a great job with Florence imo.

[BigAl]

In my opinion, Gordy missed the boat all the way by under-utilizing Mary and Florence. Granted, it was Diane's crossover voice and style, and HDH's material and production, which catapulted The Supremes to the big-time. Keeping that formula for the singles was, of course, the right idea, but had Mary and Flo been given some more leads on album cuts and in concert, and had there been more no-lead/three-part-harmony numbers included [[in addition to "People," listen to "Sleepwalk" and "Lazybones.") there's no question in my mind that the act would have beome even bigger. But that wasn't Gordy's plan — especially once he and Diane became romantically involved. I'm just thankful that there's adequate recorded documentation that Mary & Flo were also consummate vocal stylists — arguably even more than Diane.

[smark21]

I agree that Mary and Flo could have been featured more on album cuts as leads. But we can’t turn back time.

[Jimi LaLumia]

In my opinion, Gordy missed the boat all the way by under-utilizing Mary and Florence. Granted, it was Diane's crossover voice and style, and HDH's material and production, which catapulted The Supremes to the big-time. Keeping that formula for the singles was, of course, the right idea, but had Mary and Flo been given some more leads on album cuts and in concert, and had there been more no-lead/three-part-harmony numbers included [[in addition to "People," listen to "Sleepwalk" and "Lazybones.") there's no question in my mind that the act would have beome even bigger. But that wasn't Gordy's plan — especially once he and Diane became romantically involved. I'm just thankful that there's adequate recorded documentation that Mary & Flo were also consummate vocal stylists — arguably even more than Diane.

THE SUPREMES were the #1 US recording act of the 1960's,second only to THE BEATLES worldwide;
the act COULDN'T get any bigger...and the act was all about DIANA ROSS!

[luke]

"Florence was a great singer." Diana Ross from that Sparrow book.

[Jimi LaLumia]

Flo was a great,powerful singer, she just wasn't a lead singer,she didn't have the patience,temperment,style or chops to pull off ever being a lead..but nonetheless, she resented Diana getting all the attention,,,that is understandable, ask George Harrison or Ringo Starr,or Keith Richards of The Rolling Stones...but still, as a member of the biggest American recording act of the 1960's, it was crazy for her to shoot herself in both feet when the group was riding high,and to attack her employer, and threaten her employer,Berry Gordy, treating him as an equal..try doing that where you work and see what happens...
even Ross did what she was told, even when she didn't want to..sorry, the 'poor,poor Flo' thing does not fly with me..

[antceleb12]

"Florence was a great singer." Diana Ross from that Sparrow book.

Agreed.

Diana knows that her group mates were talented. Mary knows that her group mates were talented. Florence knew that her group mates were talented. AKA, they all had great respect for each other. Let's leave the drama [[if there is any left) to the girls and not beat a dead horse.

I think we can all agree that they all had talent. Otherwise, they wouldn't be as 'Supreme' as they are.

[detmotownguy]

Agreed.

Diana knows that her group mates were talented. Mary knows that her group mates were talented. Florence knew that her group mates were talented. AKA, they all had great respect for each other. Let's leave the drama [[if there is any left) to the girls and not beat a dead horse.

I think we can all agree that they all had talent. Otherwise, they wouldn't be as 'Supreme' as they are.

Agreed, nicely said. A nice way to close this thread out.

[marv2]

Penny, I was privileged to see "Return to Love" in of all places, Detroit. If you attended that show, I hope you will agree that it was simply amazing. I honestly did not miss marywilson or Cindy. [[After their disastrous appearance on Motown 45, neither women looked ready for prime time). Ironically to me, though they were virtually the same age, both Lynda Laurence and Scherrie Payne looked like younger, vibrant versions of marywilson and Cindy.
i am biased because I have been a Diana Ross admirer since 1964.
But "Return to Love" was plagued by unfair, in my opinion bad press. Without reigniting the same old issues, one particular person had a vendetta and that vendetta went viral because people tend to be drawn to controversy more than reality sometimes. Never forget before SFX pulled the plug, Madison Square Garden was sold out. Also Lynda attended one of the Diana Ross fan events and stated unequivocally that SFX or was it FX, tried to coerce Diana into a long term touring contract, which she wasn't interested in. You can believe what you believe. I just saw it as "Return to Love" became a victim of Murphy's Law.
All that stated, the end result of "Return to Love" should not have forced near inaction from Motown/Universal on the 50th Anniversary. [[They had tried to capitalize on the tour by preparing The Supremes boxset in the pink hues of the tour).

The "Return to Love Tour" was taken as joke by most here in New York. It should have never went out without Mary or Cindy for that matter. Madison Square Garden was NOT sold out and we here on Long Island refused to go see it at Jones Beach causing it to be cancelled!

[Jimi LaLumia]

"Return To Love" should have never been talked about in the press, etc until all the original parties had agreed or not agreed to do it, and legally signed on..
leaking it out there before it actually existed[[originally as the 'reunion', which was then denied, but it was originally called 'reunion') was the fatal error... a real shame, actually... no one could keep their mouths shut, starting with Miss Ross[[yes, I'm a fan, but as I've said many times, I don't drink the 'kool aid" or wear the rose colored glasses..I call em as I see em..she should have kept her mouth shut until a deal was,or wasn't, legally done..)

[marv2]

"Return To Love" should have never been talked about in the press, etc until all the original parties had agreed or not agreed to do it, and legally signed on..
leaking it out there before it actually existed[[originally as the 'reunion', which was then denied, but it was originally called 'reunion') was the fatal error... a real shame, actually... no one could keep their mouths shut, starting with Miss Ross[[yes, I'm a fan, but as I've said many times, I don't drink the 'kool aid" or wear the rose colored glasses..I call em as I see em..she should have kept her mouth shut until a deal was,or wasn't, legally done..)

Jimi, just this past week I was finally able to locate my tape with about a dozen local New York City news outlets reporting on the story of RTL beginning with that press conference at Grand Central Station and even with Mary at her apartment on the UWS. They talked to people on the street, radio station personalities, gossip people and even the news anchors "showed" their opinions about that tour. In a word.....it was a MESS! All the other people that jumped on the bandwagon from Jay Leno, to Howard Stern to even Donny & Marie! LOL! It was a complete mess and promoters are just as much to blame as Diana Ross and the others.

[luke]

The New York Daily News and WBLS had much to say too. Front page in the former "The Subpremes"!

[Bokiluis]

There is the "People" studio version used on There's A Place For Us and the 1964 live version used on the Where Did Our Love Go Expanded. There are a few other early live performances but we used the best on the WDOLG expanded. And they sang it at the Motortown Revue in Paris but audio problems made it unreleasable [[only Mary's mic was on). They obviously sang this song quite a bit in the early years. After the Roostertail show in late 66 there are no more recorded performances of the song.
The Supremes In The Orient is something that Motown Productions have [[or had). Even their best copy isn't pristine. I don't think it was recorded very well. Obviously there is or was a lot more footage from the unedited special but I have no idea where that would be.
George it is really invaluable to have this confirmed. In a sense, I am even thankful of any and all the footage that does exist. I had heard from someone that when Motown was relocating to Los Angeles, tons of memorabilia was tossed out and destroyed. The Motown of 1968-69 was quite different than the Motown of 1972. As we all know some artists' career came to a near halt [[Martha Reeves and the Vandellas, The Marvelettes, Jr. Walker, etc.), while others graduated from the stigma of being a singles label, to producing some of the most iconic pop/soul albums of all time like "What's Going On", "Lady Sings the Blues", "Talking Book"/"Innervisions", "Smokey", etc.).
i just hope that someday soon we may see some of the footage that was salvaged. I was so hoping when Motown 40 happened, that Suzanne DePasse would have delivered on her promise for that deep documentary. The Motown Story needs to be told effectively on film as it was so well captured on the first "Motown Story" boxset, the one with 5 vinyl discs. Even the proposed Broadway show will only be able to capture the highlights in a 2-3 hour production. Legend has it that Berry is sitting on a treasure trove of rare film footage. He still looks great, but, Berry is really getting up there in age. I hope he does leave provisions behind on how to handle those assets. "When You Dream.....".

[George Solomon]

Thousands of photos and negatives were left behind or trashed when Motown moved. Many were "rescued" by people in the area. They were auctioned, sold or just given away... And that's why you see so many rare photos on the internet and ebay.
As for the Motown of the late 60's and early 70's, I always thought "New Ways But Love Stays" by the Supremes should have put them in the "album artist" category. I realize I'm starting a whole new topic and I know this isn't a favorite album to everyone... We've discussed the cover and title of the album but the sound and material seemed very relevant to what was happening in 1970.
Now, how to I bring this topic back to "People"? OK... In 70 and 71, Mary and Cindy used to leave the stage and Jean would do a fantastic solo of "People" in their stage show.

[RossHolloway]

Thousands of photos and negatives were left behind or trashed when Motown moved. Many were "rescued" by people in the area. They were auctioned, sold or just given away... And that's why you see so many rare photos on the internet and ebay.
As for the Motown of the late 60's and early 70's, I always thought "New Ways But Love Stays" by the Supremes should have put them in the "album artist" category. I realize I'm starting a whole new topic and I know this isn't a favorite album to everyone... We've discussed the cover and title of the album but the sound and material seemed very relevant to what was happening in 1970.
Now, how to I bring this topic back to "People"? OK... In 70 and 71, Mary and Cindy used to leave the stage and Jean would do a fantastic solo of "People" in their stage show.

George - were there any live recordings of Jeans solo version of People. I would love to hear it.

[George Solomon]

Jean's "People" was a real showstopper and it was the only moment in the show where one lady was left alone on stage. I saw it three times. I'm sure other fans have seen this show as well. It's been said that the show was recorded for a live album in 1971 at the Frontier in Vegas and the Copa in New York. So far, we haven't found the recordings. So far... New things are turning up all the time!

[rod_rick]

Jean's "People" was a real showstopper and it was the only moment in the show where one lady was left alone on stage. I saw it three times. I'm sure other fans have seen this show as well. It's been said that the show was recorded for a live album in 1971 at the Frontier in Vegas and the Copa in New York. So far, we haven't found the recordings. So far... New things are turning up all the time!

God, I sure hope those show up George ;) Ross, I have 2 recordings of Jean singing "People" 1 from The David Frost Show" and the other from the Central Park concert, and yes Jean tear into that song.

[antceleb12]

Thousands of photos and negatives were left behind or trashed when Motown moved. Many were "rescued" by people in the area. They were auctioned, sold or just given away... And that's why you see so many rare photos on the internet and ebay.
As for the Motown of the late 60's and early 70's, I always thought "New Ways But Love Stays" by the Supremes should have put them in the "album artist" category. I realize I'm starting a whole new topic and I know this isn't a favorite album to everyone... We've discussed the cover and title of the album but the sound and material seemed very relevant to what was happening in 1970.
Now, how to I bring this topic back to "People"? OK... In 70 and 71, Mary and Cindy used to leave the stage and Jean would do a fantastic solo of "People" in their stage show.

George, I have always thought that "New Ways But Love Stays" was the best album recorded by the Supremes since "Rodgers & Hart." It really puzzles me why Motown didn't push this album more than it did [[my guess would be that Berry had "washed his hands").
I had no idea about Jean singing people! I can imagine that she would have knocked that number out of the park.

[Jimi LaLumia]

for the same reason that they took "Never Can Say Goodbye" away from Jean, even though she brought the song to Motown; If they had dropped The Supremes into that same original arrangement instead of the J5, it would have been an across the board #1 for the girls, but Motown 70's obviously didn't want that, Jean shadowing[[[[or, as in the first year, OVER shadowing) Diana Ross..THAT was NOT the game plan....lol..

[jillfoster]

Jean's "People" was a real showstopper and it was the only moment in the show where one lady was left alone on stage. I saw it three times. I'm sure other fans have seen this show as well. It's been said that the show was recorded for a live album in 1971 at the Frontier in Vegas and the Copa in New York. So far, we haven't found the recordings. So far... New things are turning up all the time!

I've also read that Mary did "Windmills Of Your Mind" at the live shows during that time... I'd love to hear that for SURE.