BAby Love one of the greatest singles of all time

[smark21]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2012/may/31/the-supremes-baby-love?newsfeed=true

[thisoldheart]

jeez, not knockin' the supremes' "baby love" for being the top single of the guardian list for 1964, but that was an odd list!

[franjoy56]

i am not surprised at this "Baby Love" by the original Supremes hit #1 in the states
for four weeks, and it is probably one of the Supremes biggest hits. this was the first supremes single i bought, happily passing up where did our love go, mary and flo each have a solo here horray.

[gary_james]

It was one of the first 45s I got, so it's special to me.

[jobeterob]

For a lot of the world outside the USA, it was not Where Did Our Love Go that changed Motown and the Supremes forever ~ it was Baby Love. So I am not surprised to see this on an English list.

I heard Diana Ross on the interview on the Expanded Edition of Diana Ross 1976 say that she always has to sing this song and always loves it.

It is just not as intricate and complicated and rhythmic as other songs like You Keep Me Hangin On, My World Is Empty Without You, Love is Like an Itching in My Heart etc.

But if we had to include specific words and phrases in the RR H of Fame..............the opening "oooooh, oooooooooh".............would have to be inducted. An unforgettable opening done in a style that was never duplicated.

[roger]

jeez, not knockin' the supremes' "baby love" for being the top single of the guardian list for 1964, but that was an odd list!

But thisoldheart .. that list consists of songs that reached #1 in Britain in 1964 .. it isn't a list of what someoone considers to be "the best singles of 1964".

All the writer of the article is saying is that of all the records that hit #1 in Britain in 1964 he considers "Baby Love" by THE SUPREMES to be the best of the bunch!!

Have to say I agree with him .. :)

Roger

[thisoldheart]

i guess i would have to see all the u.k. number ones to see if the list the guardian chose would look anything like a list i would choose!

[144man]

It was a milestone in that it was the first Motown record to get to #1 in the UK, and for me there was the additional bonus of it having the magnificent "Ask Any Girl" on the flip side.

[roger]

i guess i would have to see all the u.k. number ones to see if the list the guardian chose would look anything like a list i would choose!

There are [[cunningly concealed) links in those articles that lead to lists of all the U.K. #1s .. here is the one for 1964 ..

http://www.officialcharts.com/all-the-number-ones-singles-list/_/1964/


18/01/1964 DAVE CLARK FIVE GLAD ALL OVER 2 Wks at No.1
01/02/1964 SEARCHERS NEEDLES AND PINS 3
22/02/1964 BACHELORS DIANE 1
29/02/1964 CILLA BLACK ANYONE WHO HAD A HEART 3
21/03/1964 BILLY J KRAMER AND THE DAKOTAS LITTLE CHILDREN 2
04/04/1964 BEATLES CAN'T BUY ME LOVE 3
25/04/1964 PETER AND GORDON A WORLD WITHOUT LOVE 2
09/05/1964 SEARCHERS DON'T THROW YOUR LOVE AWAY 2
23/05/1964 FOUR PENNIES JULIET 1
30/05/1964 CILLA BLACK YOU'RE MY WORLD [[IL MIO MONDO) 4
27/06/1964 ROY ORBISON IT'S OVER 2
11/07/1964 ANIMALS HOUSE OF THE RISING SUN 1
18/07/1964 ROLLING STONES IT'S ALL OVER NOW 1
25/07/1964 BEATLES A HARD DAY'S NIGHT 3
15/08/1964 MANFRED MANN DO WAH DIDDY DIDDY 2
29/08/1964 HONEYCOMBS HAVE I THE RIGHT? 2
12/09/1964 KINKS YOU REALLY GOT ME 2
26/09/1964 HERMAN'S HERMITS I'M INTO SOMETHING GOOD 2
10/10/1964 ROY ORBISON OH, PRETTY WOMAN 2
24/10/1964 SANDIE SHAW [[THERE'S) ALWAYS SOMETHING THERE TO REMIND ME 3
14/11/1964 ROY ORBISON OH, PRETTY WOMAN 1
21/11/1964 SUPREMES BABY LOVE 2
05/12/1964 ROLLING STONES LITTLE RED ROOSTER 1
12/12/1964 BEATLES I FEEL FINE 5

The list agrees with what is in my copy of the "Guinness Book of British Hit Singles" as being the #1s for 1964 which means that it is the "Record Retailer/Music Week" chart.

For we Motown fans it is interesting to see that the Guardian Top #1 for 1966 is "Reach Out" by THE FOUR TOPS ..

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2012/may/31/four-tops-reach-out

Roger

[thisoldheart]

so then, the only real compitition is sandi shaw with bacharach/david's "there's always something there to remind me"!

[144man]

so then, the only real compitition is sandi shaw with bacharach/david's "there's always something there to remind me"!

I'd rule that out on the grounds that it's a cover version.

[thisoldheart]

I'd rule that out on the grounds that it's a cover version.
while the original is by one of pop music's most under appreciated singers, the cover is by one of pop music's better kept secrets. both versions hold their own on their respective continents!

[heikki]

Hi!

Lou Johnson - one of pop music's most under appreciated singers?

Best regards
Heikki

[thisoldheart]

my mistake, dionne's cover of lou johnson original. all three versions are fine, which is a rarity! dionne is disregarded as one of the finest song interpreters and muse for bacharach & david. not even a box set to her name! a dang shame! what did she do to deserve such neglect?

[roger]

I'd rule that out on the grounds that it's a cover version.

Well, it looks like over a third of those #1s were "covers" .. not that I realised it at the time of course!!

To me the only "serious" competition to "Baby Love" as the pick of the bunch would be the two ROY ORBISON tracks, with "It's Over" having the edge, "You Really Got Me" by THE KINKS and "It's All Over Now" by THE ROLLING STONES.

"It's All Over Now" was a "cover" of a BOBBY WOMACK/VALENTINOS song of course, but I wouldn't exclude it on that basis as I don't see why "covers" SHOULD be excluded .. after all some of the best recordings back in the '60s were "covers" and sometimes they surpassed the originals .. I'm thinking of things like "Respect" and "I Say A Little Prayer" by ARETHA FRANKLIN as examples.

Roger

[juicefree20]

As far as this assesment goes, only two words are necessary...

IT IS!!!

[144man]

I don't see why "covers" SHOULD be excluded

Because in the UK the general public never got a chance to hear the originals.

Either they weren't released, or the BBC chose to play the cover versions, which 95% of the time were inferior to the original. The situation only changed with the advent of the pirate radio stations, which tended to play more obscure records. There was a landmark after Cilla Black had a British number 1 with "Anyone Who Had A Heart". Some DJs felt so guilty of depriving Dionne Warwick of a hit that they made a point of giving a lot of airplay to "Walk On By".

"Respect" in particular, and possibly the others you mention [[I don't have the dates to hand), were released long enough after the originals to be considered revivals. They weren't competing for sales with the originals.

Are you seriously telling me that Manfred Mann's "Do Wah Diddy" was as good as the Exciters' version, or the Searchers' "Needles And Pins" as good as Jackie deShannon's? The British record buyer was never given a fair chance to make a choice.

[juicefree20]

144man

Oddly enough, I was about 4 when Manfred Mann hit & despite living in N.Y., I heard their version far more than I did The Exciters version & always preferred it.

I would suspect that because of the whole British Invasion here in the states that the average person believed Manfred Mann's to be the original version, much like most would believe that The Mindbenders made the original version of "Groovy Kind Of Love" as opposed to Patti LaBelle & The Bluebelles.

It got crazy here that way back then.

[roger]

Are you seriously telling me that Manfred Mann's "Do Wah Diddy" was as good as the Exciters' version, or the Searchers' "Needles And Pins" as good as Jackie deShannon's? The British record buyer was never given a fair chance to make a choice.

Well .. seeing as I never mentioned "Doo Wah Diddy" or "Needles and Pins" in my previous posts I don't see why you feel the need to put words in my mouth .. but seeing as you asked I think the answers would be "Yes" and "Possibly", in that order .. didn't THE SEARCHERS approach JACKIE DESHANNON to get her approval to release "Needles And Pins" which would have given it some legitimacy? I used to quite like THE SEARCHERS back in 1963/4, but then I was only 10 at the time.

Of course, seeing as neither of those original recordings by THE EXCITERS or JACKIE DESHANNON made #1 in Britain they don't qualify for inclusion in a list of "Best U.K. #1s of the year" so your question makes little sense to me anyway.

However .. You will be pleased to know that I much prefer EARL JEAN's version of "I'm Into Something Good" to that by HERMAN'S HERMITS and the version of "Anyone Who Had A Heart" by DIONNE WARWICK to that by Miss White .. :)

I'm not familiar enough with the originals of "Little Red Rooster" or "You're My World" to offer an opinion on either of those. With "It's All Over Now" I would say that THE ROLLING STONES and the VALENTINOS versions are equally good.

As to "There's Always Something There To Remind Me" I much prefer the LOU JOHNSON and DIONNE WARWICK versions to that by SANDIE SHAW .. although I would like to point out that the "Pirate Radio" era in Britain started around Easter 1964 when Caroline and Atlanta went on air within a few weeks of each other and by the time SANDIE SHAW had her #1 they were both in full swing [[as Caroline North and Caroline South respectively) so the record's chart status probably had little to do with the BBC.

Roger

[smark21]

my mistake, dionne's cover of lou johnson original. all three versions are fine, which is a rarity! dionne is disregarded as one of the finest song interpreters and muse for bacharach & david. not even a box set to her name! a dang shame! what did she do to deserve such neglect?

Psychic Friends Network?

[arrr&bee]

psychic friends network?haaaaaaa,that's cold,i bet if you ask dionne she'd say that[anyone who had a heart]would forget that she was involved and she would take[trains and boats and planes]to get away from it but wherever she goes there's[always something there to remind me]and that maybe the psychic network thought that we were all[april fools]!!

[thisoldheart]

seriously ... why all the hate disguised as jokes about miss warwick? it can't be her voice, because she had a set of pipes equal to no one. i think it is her regal and imperious carrying of herself. the way in which she acted and expectected to be treated with the respect equal to her vocal gifts. she sang so naturally and with such ease that there was little need for her to pander to her audience. she was singing some of the most sophisticated and difficult "pop" songs of her day usually crafted specifically for her by barcharach and david. those songs have become part of the american songbook, yet she receives little note for being the primary muse and interpreter of that body of work. i think the earnestness and seriousness she feels about her place in pop music is often held against her. she was an adult contemporary singer in an age of teenage pop stars. her talent has gone unrecognized because she was playing in a different league than her contemporaries. [[this whole defense of miss warwick applies only to her "golden" era, that period spent on scepter records defining the unequalled work of bacharach and david.)

[marv2]

I loved just about everything Dionne Warwick has recorded. She is just that good......always has been.

[milven]

seriously ... why all the hate disguised as jokes about miss warwick?...

Could it be Celebrity Apprentice?? I hope not. There is nothing real about reality shows and most of the stuff is staged. I heard that Dionne came off as a bitch on that show, and there seems to be some hate for her since then. Undeservedly.

[franjoy56]

This post was about "Baby Love" and yes it was the ultimate girl group song
that outsold all the rest during that year and before. "Baby Love" is on almost every Supremes compilationa album, but now the subject has turned to Dionne Warwick, and what she did or did not do on Celebrity Apprentice her spats with Nicey and others has nothing whatsover to do with her talent. Those 1960's anthems were one of the most beautiful songs ever by an artist of that era and yet she bounced back again in 1979 with that gorgeous album "Dionne'. I just received a Dionne Warwich Box set with five original albums on it hits on every one of the original album"
1. Presenting Dionne Warwick feat. "don't Make me over"
2/ Anyone Who Had a Heart feat the title song.
3/ Make Way for Dionne Warwick "A house is ot a home" "Reach Out for Me" "youl never get to hearven.
4. The Windows of the Wrold featuring "I Say a little prayer"
5. Valley of the Dlls "Do u KNow the Way to San Jose" and the title track. Ms. Warwick was all that and more.

[thisoldheart]

franjoy, sorry that i waylaid this discussion. however, as always, the discussion turns from music to personality! perhaps someday we will be able to get away from the extraneous [[the gowns, the dirt, etc.), and critique music, how it was made, and how it fits in a historical sense. i will not hold my breath!!

[144man]

Roger,

Notice I said that I'd exclude cover versions and then gave my reasons. It's purely subjective, and you can use your own criteria, but I introduced a moral dimension. A lot of people who were soul fans in Britain in the mid-60s would feel the same as me. You can't imagine the frustration we felt when records we loved were either not played on the radio or not even released, robbing the original artists of the hits that they rightfully deserved. Dusty Springfield felt so guilty after scoring with Tommy Hunt's "I Just Don't Know What To Do With Myself" that she pledged not to release any more cover-versions as singles. It was the supreme irony that after the "British Invasion", so many covers belatedly became hits in America.

You ask why I singled out "Do Wah Diddy" and "Needles And Pins". The reason was that it was convenient to do so, as they were included in the Number 1 singles of 1964 which you listed above. My point is that I could not consider these for inclusion in a list of "Greatest Singles of All Time" when I like the original versions so much more.

Incidentally I believe the record Jackie deShannon gave the Searchers permission to record must have been "When You Walk In The Room" since she wrote that but not "Needles And Pins".

[westgrandboulevard]

I agree with 144man.

To me, the production values of the original US versions were almost always superior to the UK covers.

I could only respond to what my ears told me.

The string arrangements, the echo effects. etc, just couldn't be emulated here. Even Dusty, with her great vocals, couldn't quite achieve the Hitsville sound she would ideally have wanted.

Another thing that I felt often let down the UK covers were the background vocalists. Although Madeleine Bell, Kiki Dee etc were great, ladies like The Breakaways, The Ladybirds etc would often just shrilly and thinly yell at full blast, and were no comparison to the richer, subtly shaded gospel choral sounds on the US releases, and which could easily stir your soul.

[Jimi LaLumia]

the public decides!... and Marvin Gaye's biggest hit,"I Heard It Through The Grapevine" is a cover..which doesn't stop most of the planet from thinking of that as Marvin's song, just as "Ain't No Mountain High Enough" .a cover, now belongs to Diana Ross in the general public's mind..

[Jimi LaLumia]

Dionne Warwick's biggest problem was her wimpy label,Scepter Records..
MOTOWN, they were NOT!..there isn't even a SCEPTER RECORDS Box Set, to my knowledge..

[marv2]

Could it be Celebrity Apprentice?? I hope not. There is nothing real about reality shows and most of the stuff is staged. I heard that Dionne came off as a bitch on that show, and there seems to be some hate for her since then. Undeservedly.

Dionne's appearance on "Celebrity Apprentice" was like a "minute" out of her career that spans more than 50 years! Anyone that sums up Ms. Warwick by that show, is lacking in knowledge of this woman and her amazing accomplishments throughout the years.

[juicefree20]

Jimi,

The 1st version of "Grapevine" was recorded by Smokey Robinson & The Miracles in the late Summer of 1966. Berry hated the song & Motown's QAC voted down Whitfield/Strong & didn't release the song at that time. Marvin recorded his version of "Grapevine" in the Spring of 1967, again, Berry didn't like the results & again, the song was shelved.

As I recall it, Marvin's version was considered to be a bit too dark & ominous for those times. Remember, at that point whether due to company edict or his own inclination, Norman hadn't been releasing those dark, ominous tunes until exactly a year later, when Whitfield/Strong introduced a whole new Motown sound with the dark, moody "Cloud Nine".

The 3rd attempt was recorded by Gladys & The Pips that June & against his better judgement, Berry okayed the release that fall. From what's been said, Motown didn't put a lot of promotional muscle behind the song & it was due to Gladys & The Pips good relationships with key DJ's that helped it become a hit.

Nearly an entire year later, Norman continued to press Berry about releasing "Grapevine" & was able to get it included as an LP track on Marvin's "In The Groove" LP. The 1st single "You" was somewhat a failure, charting somewhere in the mid-30s Pop, which given Motown's track record, was definitely disappointing.

Meanwhile, radio DJs were playing "Grapevine" & people went crazy for it, becoming one of the most requested songs at several radio stations. The buzz that was following "Grapevine" led to DJ's telling Berry that he had a hit on his hands. It was then & only then that Motown finally released "Grapevine" as a single shortly before Thanksgiving that year & shortly thereafter, it became Motown's biggest single ever.

Unfortunately, the success of Marvin's single created somewhat of a rift between Gladys & Marvin. Gladys had onwership of the song for about a year, only to see Marvin's version completely overwhelm the version of Gladys & The Pips. Think Aretha & how her version outpaced Otis' original to the point where he had to admit that "That girl stole that song from me".

When you think about the circumstances of this song, as well as the opposition of "What's Goin' On", this illustrates how mere happenstance could've deprived the world of some great music.

While it's important to be good, sometimes an equal dose of a little good fortune & a pinch of grace works wonders!

[juicefree20]

Jimi,

Indeed there is a Scepter box set & it's been out for about 20 years now. I have to admit that I thought that 3 CDs were rather light, as Dionne & The Shirelles could've filled 3 CDs with their own hits, not to mention Maxine Brown & Chuck Jackson. For that reason, having had just about everything from those 4, I never bothered to buy this 3 CD box set, as to me a mere 3 CDs was a bit disappointing.

http://www.allmusic.com/album/the-scepter-records-story-mw0000611000

[franjoy56]

Scepter Records Box Set. I didn't even know there was a scepter box set thank you Juicyfree for mentioning this after viewing the track listing, I will have to visit J&R this box set has tracks haven't heard in years The Shirelles Blue Holiday not even on my greatest hits set, the rockyfellers Killer Joe, Maxine Brown onnmb the isley brothers tas and of course dionne warwick, and chuck jackson and bj thomas, but turning back to "Baby Love" it still was one of the biggest hits of 1964 at least in the top three.

[juicefree20]

Franjoy,

Anytime at all! Glad to be of assistance!