nothing but heartaches [[alt. version)

[thisoldheart]

"nothing but heartaches" is the most interesting track on the new expanded version of "more hits by the supremes" as far as i hear. this song, along with "back in my arms again" and holland/dozier/holland's more muscular songs for the four tops like "something about you" and "it's the same old song" seem to be an attempt to move the supremes into a rockier sound that will continue their hits as the brit competition gets tougher, both literally and figuratively.

unlike many people, i think this the strongest track. the released single is relentless, and doesn't rely on the " baby, babies", the cuteness of "stop's" lyrics, and the easy pandering of name ticking of flo and mary's names in the otherwise very strong "back in my arms".

the notes to this expanded version say that an early version of "love is like an itchin' in my heart" was also recorded around this time. it seem obvious h/d/h had a rockin' plan, but that the failure of this single in not making it to number one had them retreat far behind enemy fire with the overly safe and saccharine "symphony".

too bad! because i want to know what h/d/h were up to in this first alternate take. the vocal break is way too long, and isn't punctuated by a usual sax solo, but it is an interesting section that might have worked better had it been cut up, with some of it used for a stronger intro, which is the weak link in this powerhouse single, and perhaps some mad sax solo mixing it up with mary and florence.

anybody else think this is has always been a missed opportunity and not a failure? can't wait till they get to "supremes a go-go", because if ever a record deserved to hit it big it was "love is like an itchin' in my heart"! sure hope we get to hear the early version made during the "more hits" sessions. what's your take, motown-o-holics?

just to let you know where i'm coming from, supreme-wise, here are the highs in my book: "run, run, run,", "nothing but heartaches", "remove this doubt", "going down for the third time", "love is like an itchin' in my heart", "my world is empty without you", "you keep me hangin' on", and "forever came today" ... perhaps "reflections"!

oh, and please don't turn this into a diana and mary war. it seems that is how every conversation ends up here. this is strictly about music, music lovers!!!

[144man]

This is the most interesting DRATS thread I've seen in a while. I ned to think about the points you've raised.

[ejluther]

anybody else think this is has always been a missed opportunity and not a failure? can't wait till they get to "supremes a go-go", because if ever a record deserved to hit it big it was "love is like an itchin' in my heart"! sure hope we get to hear the early version made during the "more hits" sessions. what's your take, motown-o-holics?

I've long thought "...Itchin'" was one of their very best - it's relentless and hot! Plus, the fact that Diana's headphones were apparently cutting out and she was getting frustrated only adds to the inherent frustration in the song's lyrics - excellent track!

I like your observation that they were taking The Supremes in a more rocking direction - it certainly seems that way until IHAS really throws that plan for a loop. I honestly like IHAS but it does really stick out like a sore thumb when compared to all their other studio albums. If not for the hit singles, I suspect it would be regulated to the "concept album" category these days. I wonder what the teen reaction to the LP was? Did they think it was awfully square in comparison to their other albums? Did their parents love it more? And did other Motown artists do such "adult" LPs around that time? Regardless, A' GO-GO certainly comes along and kicks it all back into high gear soon enough...

[R. Mark Desjardins]

thisoldheart;
I have often wondered myself why The Supremes didn't chart higher with the two H-D-H masterpieces, "Nothing But Heartaches" and "Love Is Like An Itching In My Heart." I recently listened to Midnight Johnny's wonderful conversation with George Solomon on the radio program podcast of Nightflight and a pretty good answer was offered up. George went back to the pop charts of the day and he stated that the Top 10 was packed with what are now known as classic songs. There was just TOO much to choose from at the time.

He suggested that if Berry Gordy had held the two songs in question back for a month or so, they would have easily broken into the top 10 and maybe even have been a number one smash. It was noted that at the time, Motown was in the habit of releasing a Supremes single about every 3 to four months during the 1965 and 1966 period. Solomon also noted that both records actually charted better on the Variety and Cashbox Charts which raised some questions in his mind about how Billboard gathered their information.

Another interesting comment was also made. Solomon stated that in conversations with Oldies radio programmers who regularly poll their listeners as to what THEY want to hear, the most requested Supremes recordings are "Nothing But Heartaches" and "Love Is Like An Itching In My Heart."

I highly recommend anyone wishing some fascinating insider facts on The Supremes to go to the website www.womr.org [[http://www.womr.org/) and listen to Midnight Johnny's podcasts!

[bradsupremes]

I've always felt the most rocking Supremes song was "Going Down For The Third Time." Now that's a song that should have been released A-side and given the push to number one. The Funk Brothers are tight, Mary and Flo [[especially Flo) really give it their all and Diana gives one of her best vocals. I don't know why it was never released A-side. It would have been the perfect follow-up to "You Keep Me Hangin' On."

[Ryon6]

I totally agree Bradsupremes. "Going Down For The Third Time" is definitely in my top ten list.

Tyrone

[thisoldheart]

the point made above by mark that there were just too many great classic hits vying for a limited number of spots does make sense. it probably would have served berry gordy to pace his output.

however, it seems that the supremes single output was pushed in different directions. their singles veer wildly between simple, sweet, well made pop confections, and more serious adult straight ahead infectious rockers. if you compare the supremes single output with that of the four tops, the group closest stylistically to the supremes, the tops dropped the sweet stuff with "i can't help myself". as long as they were being produced by holland/dozier/holland the tops never vary from their fast and plaintive series of hits that build upon each other to make a cohesive and impressive body of work. to be fair, this run was interrupted by the two covers "walk away, renee", and "if i were a carpenter", but even those two back to back h/d/h productions continued the tops serious sound mixed with stubbs heartbreaking trademark vocals.

my bet is that by having gordy overly manage the supremes, he wildly overreacted to any single that did not hit number one. if he would have left h/d/h alone, the supremes single run wouldn't have been so stylistically jumbled. "i hear a symphony" seems to be the first single that backtracks, and reverts back to a more safe area that the supremes had already nailed with their first two number one songs. the supremes seem ill served by having their songs try to be too many things to too many people. somehow h/d/h manage to bring things back to a more cohesive sound with the somber "my world is empty without you". it is a mix of simplicity with adult seriousness that that set up their next string of interesting hits: "itchin'", "hurry", and " hangin' on". from then on the supremes and h/d/h seem to be all over the place. they are certainly ill served with "the happening" that doesn't seem, and probably didn't even come from the pens of h/d/h, and completely ruined and adrift with the most out of place h/d/h single ever written for them, "falling in and out of love". i am curious whose fault this is. it seems to me that the both the supremes and the four tops were at the top of their singles game when h/d/h were allowed to control it. the supremes work seems to have been a little war between h/d/h and gordy. gordy wanted the glam and glitz that was the supremes stage act, while h/d/h stayed very clear of that part of the game. the musicianship of the writers seemed to loose out at critical points to gordy's megalomaniacal dreams for the group.

it seems that it is always written that holland/dozier/holland became dissatisfied with the monetary terms with gordy. i often wonder if gordy's interference could have subtly played just as important a role. needless to say neither the supremes, the four tops, gordy, nor h/d/h ever really survived that devastating breakup.

[Ryon6]

Hmmm, very interesting. I never thought of it like that, thisoldheart.

Tyrone

[144man]

...and h/d/h seem to be all over the place. they are certainly ill served with "the happening" that doesn't seem, and probably didn't even come from the pens of h/d/h, and completely ruined and adrift with the most out of place h/d/h single ever written for them, "falling in and out of love".....

What am I not hearing in "In And Out Of Love"? To me, it always sounded as if HDH had decided to copy themselves, and ended up with a pastiche of everything they'd ever written before. I certainly don't detect anything different or sounding untypically-Supremes in the track.

[westgrandboulevard]

144man

While I like "In and out of love", to me it sounds a tad smooth, bland and showbizzy, lacking much of the heart and personality of their earlier Hitsville recordings....

[thisoldheart]

i was just listening to and reading the liner notes to the hip-o-select holland/dozier/holland 3 cd disc set "heaven must have sent you" and came across some interesting observations by h/d/h. they say that marvin gaye was the hardest artist to deal with, but the only one that surprised them by making a better record that what h/d/h had envisioned. that doesn't surprise me as gaye went on to be the only real musician that h/d/h worked with. they said levi stubbs had a big ego, but that all of the tops recording sessions were fun, and lasted late into the night with laughter and beer. when asked what working with the supremes was like, they replied, "work".

the supremes were overworked, overbooked, and tired when they would reach the studio. this is the reason h/d/h needed to use the andantes. the supremes had too little time to record or would often sound too tired and hense need some sweetening. this all makes perfect sense, and seems like an unspoken way for h/d/h to say they did not have the kind of control over their singles with the supremes that they had with the tops.

if you look at the amount of amazing songs h/d/h wrote from mid 1965 [[beginning with "back on my arms again" for the supremes, and "something about you" for the tops") to mid 1967 [[the tops' "you keep running away") h/d/h have probably the most consistent run of very good singles of any songwriter or team of any era. if you mix in overlooked gems like the miracles' "[[come 'round here) i'm the one you need", the isley brothers' "this old heart of mine", and martha and the vandellas "i'm ready for love" this string of hits is utterly amazing. not everything they wrote when to the top of the charts, but almost to a tune, all of their singles sounded rock solid.

the only group h/d/h seem to have any problems with are the supremes. the supremes, through no fault of their own, other than shear outstanding success, demanded high maintenance which seems to have thrown h/d/h off their stride. certainly "going down for the third time" had to have been written as a single. but, does it ever get released? no! instead a movie soundtrack track, "the happening", written primarily by a hollywood movie scorer with only faint bit of h/d/h trademark sounds [["ooo, and then it happened") thrown in. this must certainly have caused h/d/h some concern for their musical legacy. h/d/h knew how to write very, very good hit records. during this period they had one very good male vocalist in levi stubbs who could turn their heartbreaking works into small masterpieces. h/d/h also had the most popular female singing group with a lead singer, who despite a limited range, more than made up for any vocal shortcomings by being able to convey a sense of immediacy and urgency to h/d/h's songs. unfortunately, the writer/producers were hampered by a record company owner who had an iffy career as a songwriter and producer, and was a man who was too greedy to pay h/d/h what they were worth, and too self important to know when to leave his top song writing team alone to do their work without interference.

i would certainly love to see a serious and studious book written about these motown heavyweights while they are still alive. while i enjoy reading the liner notes to all the recent reissues, it seems that very few of the important players are ever interviewed, and when they are, rarely is an interesting question posed. give me the job! i would love to talk to holland/dozier/holland for hours on end! there would be no end to the questions i would ask. their history would be so interesting if it was based on a more serious look at how this hit factory worked, than to keep it forever wrapped up in mystery!

[thisoldheart]

144man

While I like "In and out of love", to me it sounds a tad smooth, bland and showbizzy, lacking much of the heart and personality of their earlier Hitsville recordings....
i think you are hearing berry gordy telling h/d/h to write something bland, and showbizzy, instead of letting the masterful team write what they always had been capable of writing ... very good records! berry gordy had long lost any sense of what made a good record, and wanted to become a movie mogul instead!

[smark21]

Interesting thread. I often wonder if one of the reasons why the Supremes musical legacy/reputation isn’t as strong as other Motown acts is because Gordy was so focused on making them as commercial as possible.

[Motown4Ever518]

NBH is generally viewed as a disappointment chartwise, however there were how many singles released in 1965? How many of them made it to the peak position of NBH? Not being #1 is nothing to be ashamed of, and does not in this case, make a good song, not a good song. The record buying public liked it enough to purchase it, and IMO it is a better song than at least one of the #1's that preceded it.

I have no way of knowing this, but it would not be too much of a stretch to say that HDH for the year 1965, basically completed a song every week, perhaps in the vision that they had this was an album track. That said this song has a great attention getting intro, a driving beat, [['You can really dance to it", R.I.P. Dick Clark), an assured lead vocal, and great production. The thing that I think weighed it down was the Baritone Sax, I think it gave the song a dated feel, and made it not as crisp as it could have been.

[johnjeb]

When it was released I was lukewarm about NBH feeling it sounded too similar to its' predecessor BIMAA. I think that's why it didn't do better. I'm still ambivalent about it to this day. It's good but not #1 good. I wish they had released Itchin' instead, I think that would have gone #1 following BIMAA.

I think Symphony is classic and followed in the vein of Lover's Concerto and Unchained Melody. I thought I read that HDH had those two songs in mind when they wrote Symphony. Motown was very interested in commercial success so having the writers compose POP songs in addition to R&B certainly made sense. The Supremes were the perfect artists for POP songs.

The Happening is a movie-theme song. It is a decent POP song. I don't think that Motown, HDH or The Supremes should be criticized for being involved with this commercial effort. The record is better remembered than the movie. I wasn't crazy about the song, however I found it entertaining when The Supremes performed it on TV and LIVE. I like it more now these past 20 years than I did the first 20 years.

I'm not bothered by the commercial or POP singles by The Supremes but I cringe at many of their POP sounding Motown covers.

[franjoy56]

i think the assertations of these threads are right on, some of their better sounding tracks were not released because Gordy wanted more or less popish sounding records released on his top sellingact, but in the process the creativity or chance of hearing some of the better record/tracks charting went for not: i.e "going down for the third time" "he's all I got" "long gone Lover' even "mother you, smother you a bigger push on Lilaiimh and nbh. I hear a symphony and My world is empty without you were nearly watered down pop with wash away backing vocals buried in the mix.

[westgrandboulevard]

I can well remember Nothing But Heartaches being released here in the UK.

I bought it but, from memory, it did not chart top 20 or top 30 here and, without checking, I wouldn't be surprised if it did not actually make the Top 50.

It was great, if a little unusual, to see The Supremes make a promo appearance to lipsynch [[or mime, as it was then often described...) to Nothing But Heartaches on BBC1 'Top Of The Pops'. A programme which, in the main, would devote most transmission time to feature top 10 singles, or top 20/top 30 singles which were fast moving up the chart.

I can't immediately recall if The Supremes also made any other British TV appearances to promote NBH.

I do remember, a little further down the line, a music paper review of either 'My World Is Empty...' or 'Love Is Like An Itching...' making a comment with words to the effect that it was 'all Diana Ross and no-one else' [[again, I feel neither of those singles could be considered as big UK hits....)

However, when it came to reviewing 'You Can't Hurry Love', the same reviewer [[Penny Valentine, Disc & Music Echo...?) said she was glad 'the group had seen the red light', and was full of praise for the single...which rose very swiftly up the charts to reach top three[[?) here and, I believe, would have made No.1, had The Supremes been available to again visit the UK and promote it in person.

One thing I'm still not totally clear about is whether singles such as 'Nothing But Heartaches', 'Love Is Like An Itching In My Heart' [[and also tracks such as 'Going Down For The Third Time') were all written by HDH specifically for The Supremes, from start to finish.

I agree with thisoldheart's use of the word 'muscular'.

'Nothing But Heartaches', with its consistently walloping rhythm and,especially, the arrangement of the background vocals, sounds to my ears more akin in style to 'Nowhere To Run'.

Diana Ross does a great job on 'Love Is Like An Itching...' but again, just to my own ears, another walloping rhythm track which would initially seem to be a more likely composition for Martha to have tackled.

I don't have the relevant liner notes for reference, so I'm still unsure if these were custom made for The Supremes from the start...or if they came from a stock of songs that HDH held in different stages of composition, some of which may have been initally composed with other acts in mind, even before a band track was recorded and then assigned to an act.

I can imagine that one or two of these compositions might then be quickly fashioned for The Supremes, who needed a strong release to keep them on a consistently hitmaking roll, even if the finished track had more of a 'rock', and less of a 'pretty, pop, ooooo' tone to them.

[ejluther]

I do remember, a little further down the line, a music paper review of either 'My World Is Empty...' or 'Love Is Like An Itching...' making a comment with words to the effect that it was 'all Diana Ross and no-one else' [[again, I feel neither of those singles could be considered as big UK hits....)

It must have been "My World..." because Mary & Flo are quite prominent in "Love Is Like..." [[which a friend of mine thought was "Love Is Like An Engine In My Heart" for the longest time!)

[juicefree20]

This is really a great thread with some very thoughtful analysis being offered.

Some excellent points have been made & it definitely offers some food for thought. This is one of those threads which has made me think about some things that I'd never considered & I appreciate all whom are participating in this thread.

[jeff9nyc]

I do remember, a little further down the line, a music paper review of either 'My World Is Empty...' or 'Love Is Like An Itching...' making a comment with words to the effect that it was 'all Diana Ross and no-one else' [[again, I feel neither of those singles could be considered as big UK hits....)


I loved "My World Is Empty Without You" but always thought of it as the first solo Diana Ross record. It is clearly when things began to change, both musically and visually, from a young group to a more sophisticated presentation of a lead singer and 2 back-up singers. Or in this case to almost no back-up singers.

[splanky]

Two things about this thread caught my attention...the first being the lack of hysterics, which is good, but then the lack
of an actual link to the song in question which I'll try to amend...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oy5w1fVA-tk

[ejluther]

What a great video, splanky! Woud that story and those photos be from Cindy's very first appearance as a Supreme?

[thisoldheart]

... I'm still unsure if these were custom made for The Supremes from the start...or if they came from a stock of songs that HDH held in different stages of composition, some of which may have been initally composed with other acts in mind, even before a band track was recorded and then assigned to an act.
exactly! these are the kinds of questions i have always wondered. just because, in most cases, the songs the supremes and four tops recorded were originally done first by them, doesn't preclude the fact that holland/dozier/holland may have initially had a different act in mind. something like "i'm ready for love" sounds like something h/d/h may have had in mind for the supremes. so does "this old heart of mine" [[but, as good as that would have been - and i am talking about a full on version - not the cover on "supremes a go-go", we would never have had the dynamic ronald isley version.) this is why i am sooo curious why these kinds of question are never part of the detailed booklets that come in both the hip-o-select and ace booklets. is there no one in the world interested in interviewing the participants so that a living history of this important time is documented?

as i said before, i have raft of questions for h/d/h. anybody have an email address for them?

hey, special thanks to each and everyone of you who managed to bring up interesting and thoughtful points without turning this thread into another "great personality battle". i am a music lover first [[and how can that not include motown?) an artist's dresses, wig choices, cat fights, etc. while mildly amusing, have little to do with the great collaborative effort motown achieved during this rarified golden period.

[jobeterob]

George Solomon said in one of his interviews that he has been told that Nothing But Heartaches and Love is Like an Itching in my Heart are two Supremes songs that get very good radio response ~ he's been told this by radio people.

[westgrandboulevard]

jobeterob

It's always a real pleasure to be reminded of a track from a favourite artist that has somehow slipped from our immediate recall.

Up it pops on the radio [[i.e. it wasn't our decision to look it out) and is presented to our ears...leading very often to the feeling "Oh, I'd forgotten about that one.....it's great!".

A sort of renewed sense of discovery about the act, all over again...in direct contrast to the regularly played hits with which we're all so familiar....and will often say "Oh,that old thing!"...but love them all, really...:)