Florence Ballard and Motown- Was there a Contract Proposal ?

[captainjames]

Can someone verify for me for sure that Motown actually offered Florence Ballard a recording contract after she was oust from the Supremes ? I am not interested in why should she ? or any of that,,,, only that Mike, Berry or someone made a proposal to her.

[carlo]

I think the piece of info regarding the recording contract might have originated in one of the books? I remember reading it somewhere, but whether that's even true is a completely different story. It could be possible it was one of those things that Motown just put out there to make themselves look more saintly. Flo talks about signing her settlement here and there's no mention of a recording contract:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9m0ppwr1oEk

[carlo]

The recording contract is mentioned on page 180 of J. Randy's updated book, "Diana Ross: A Biography". It only says: "[Mike Roshkind] also offered her a recording contract at the company as a solo artist."

[marybrewster]

With all due respect; how does one get "fired" from a group, but then is asked to stay on as a solo artist?

Sounds a) shady b) untrue.

[Jimi LaLumia]

they pulled David Ruffin back in on his way out the door...and then, there was Mary Wilson's solo 'deal'....

[marybrewster]

Jim, that's true, but at least in MW's case, wasn't it to "shush" her? I am not familiar with the circumstances of David Ruffin.

Any contract offered to Flo would have been done to shut her up. Motown would have never "done" anything with her.

That's why I say if a contract was offered, it's was shady.

[Jimi LaLumia]

they apparently also re signed Ruffin while they were in 'panic mode'...and then did nothing for him after one hit...years later,the disco trend gave him his second solo hit

[RossHolloway]

they apparently also re signed Ruffin while they were in 'panic mode'...and then did nothing for him after one hit...years later,the disco trend gave him his second solo hit

I think there is way more to the story of David and Motown then Motown just not doing anything with him.

[jobeterob]

I agree with Carlo; little has ever been documented with respect to a Flo solo Contract; and "Mike offering one" is quite a way from the company actually coming up with something concrete.

I also agree with Mary ~ you're fired, but we offer you a contract? You being a troubled person? It doesn't make a lot of sense.

Unfortunately, people with substance abuse problems don't usually commit themselves to the hard work required to make it.

[luke]

You may be right MB. David Ruffin felt he was being punished with his solo contract-pretty much ignored-and he had tried to flee.

[1382hitsville]

Wasn't David still under contract from Motown when he was fired from the Temptations? So Motown just got a solo act. Back to the subject...yeah, I agree, it's strange to go through the hassle in keeping Flo in line, then replace her and offer her a solo contract. It's not Motown business sense but it can add to the myth of the Motown family.

[1382hitsville]

About contracts....In the liner notes of The Very Best of Willie Hutch [[CD release of 1998) Willie wrote: "In the eighties I was on my way to Europe, fed up with how I was treated as an artist in the States. I'd cut "In And Out" at my home studio. But Rae Singleton at Motown played it for Berry on the phone. Next thing I knew, I got another contract."

[captainjames]

Ok thanks everyone, I was trying to clear up a myth that has been going on and on in my head. MB you were dead on with what I was thnking. Flo mentions that she was no longer allowed to use the name SUPREMES so that to me tells me Motown would not offer here a contract at any cost. However, my next point of concern is why did Flo stay hush hush for so long. She could have come out and blast them but she didn't.

[reese]

In the book FOREVER FAITHFUL by Randall Wilson, it says that during a 7/26/67 meeting, Flo was offered an extension of her contracts, but withdrew that option. Instead she signed an agreement that offered her an annual gratuity of $2500, a total of $15,000. From what I understand, this occured during a meeting that Flo had without counsel. Later on, when Flo retained a lawyer, a better deal was made.

I believe Wilson started his book about Flo as a college thesis, and it evolved. I gather the info was obtained from legal records and interviews with Flo.

[marv2]

What some of you may be forgetting is that Florence Ballard was still until contract to Motown Records when Berry Gordy "fired " her in July '67. It was basically not legal what he had done. I believe her contracts ran through 1968.

[BayouMotownMan]

Randall Wilson is correct. Each Supreme signed to Motown as a solo artist and were thus used accordingly. Flo was offered to continue that contract. This would have meant more Motown control and she was so unhappy with Gordy and Motown that she declined it...unaware that by so she could not use the name Supremes for promotional purposes on any other label she was negotiating with

[jobeterob]

Aha, that makes sense; because I think we all had a thought we'd heard this somewhere.

Alcoholism and failure to show up for work are a cause for dismissal, especially after warnings; and all of that was "more so" the case in 1966 to 1968.

That being said and even if Flo was at fault, she still had a tough set of circumstances to deal with.

[floyjoy678]

I forget where I read/heard it but Flo said she never went to the press about Motown because she knew it would be bad publicity for her. Motown would just turn right around on her and say she drank too much and was unreliable.

[dvus7]

From my understanding, Gwen had told Ms. Ballard, that is was not "right"/legal with what Berry had done to her!!

In my honest opinion, You are comparing apples to oranges, when you are comparing David Ruffin to Flo Ballard!!!

[marv2]

From my understanding, Gwen had told Ms. Ballard, that is was not "right"/legal with what Berry had done to her!!

In my honest opinion, You are comparing apples to oranges, when you are comparing David Ruffin to Flo Ballard!!!

Then Gwen was right!

[Roberta75]

I forget where I read/heard it but Flo said she never went to the press about Motown because she knew it would be bad publicity for her. Motown would just turn right around on her and say she drank too much and was unreliable.

It's terribly sad what happened to Florence franjoy. Thank heavens she's at peace now.

Best to you Frances,

Roberta

[franjoy56]

she may be at peace, but facts are facts Flo drinking was escalated by the preferrential treatment the lead singer was getting without regard to the feelings of Mary and Flo who was also apart of the team, and Flo was a proud woman who thought this was not right. When you hear "Going down for the third time" "Ain't That Good News" "buttered Popcorn" "Come See About Me" "Like You Babe" you knew Flo Ballard was a singer background or not. Inspite of the inferior material she got at ABC, i think it would have been worse at Motown they were not interested in promoting her at any cost.

[ivyfield]

[QUOTE=BayouMotownMan;105146]Each Supreme signed to Motown as a solo artist... /QUOTE] That might have been for the original three/four but I distinctly remember asking Jean about her 'solo' signing and she told me that she never signed a contract as a solo artist for Motown. She said something like' I don't know where that came from... I was never signed as a solo artist'

[reese]

[QUOTE=BayouMotownMan;105146]Each Supreme signed to Motown as a solo artist... /QUOTE] That might have been for the original three/four but I distinctly remember asking Jean about her 'solo' signing and she told me that she never signed a contract as a solo artist for Motown. She said something like' I don't know where that came from... I was never signed as a solo artist'

Maybe Jean meant that it was always intended that she be the lead singer of the Supremes, not a solo artist. But the actual contract she signed could have been an individual one, meaning Mary and Cindy weren't on it.

I recall reading that G.C. Cameron of the Spinners said that one of the reasons he could not follow the other guys to Atlantic Records was because his contract still had years on it. I gather the original members of the group signed their contracts at the same time, and they had all expired.

[carlo]

I love Jean and all, but she doesn't seem to have a very good memory when it comes to these things. I heard an interview she did in 2006 and every answer was, "I can't remember". She's a sweet and talented lady, but just doesn't have a good memory it seems.

[Roberta75]

she may be at peace, but facts are facts Flo drinking was escalated by the preferrential treatment the lead singer was getting without regard to the feelings of Mary and Flo who was also apart of the team, and Flo was a proud woman who thought this was not right. When you hear "Going down for the third time" "Ain't That Good News" "buttered Popcorn" "Come See About Me" "Like You Babe" you knew Flo Ballard was a singer background or not. Inspite of the inferior material she got at ABC, i think it would have been worse at Motown they were not interested in promoting her at any cost.

Florence was a proud woman franjoy and a good woman with an incredible voice. Such a shame Mr. Gordy didn't utilize Flo's talents. She could have been a superstar. Tragic and heartbreaking when you think of what might have been.

Thankfully, Florence is with God now.

Best to you,

Roberta

[Shaqueetha_Jackson]

Florence was a proud woman franjoy and a good woman with an incredible voice. Such a shame Mr. Gordy didn't utilize Flo's talents. She could have been a superstar. Tragic and heartbreaking when you think of what might have been.

Thankfully, Florence is with God now.

Best to you,

Roberta



It good to see the love for florenec blondie Ballard what happned to her was criminal its good peple havnt forgootin she was the best singer at motown and they kilt her spirut.

[dvus7]

[QUOTE=ivyfield;105212]

Maybe Jean meant that it was always intended that she be the lead singer of the Supremes, not a solo artist. But the actual contract she signed could have been an individual one, meaning Mary and Cindy weren't on it.

I recall reading that G.C. Cameron of the Spinners said that one of the reasons he could not follow the other guys to Atlantic Records was because his contract still had years on it. I gather the original members of the group signed their contracts at the same time, and they had all expired.

And it ws done to Dennis Edwards, too.....It was done to "break-up" the group, contractually!!!

[ivyfield]

I love Jean and all, but she doesn't seem to have a very good memory when it comes to these things. I heard an interview she did in 2006 and every answer was, "I can't remember". She's a sweet and talented lady, but just doesn't have a good memory it seems.

Ha - yep, fully understand that one because if she didn't like you [[interviewers or whoever) she'd just not be forthcoming. I was very lucky - all the times I met her [[and there were quite a few) she was nice, happy and very down to earth. The last time I saw her she kissed me! Boy, do I/did I ever LOVE that lady's singing talent. ♥Steve.x

[Roberta75]

It good to see the love for florenec blondie Ballard what happned to her was criminal its good peple havnt forgootin she was the best singer at motown and they kilt her spirut.

Flo's spirit still soars my dear Shaqueetha. Ms. Ballard is now the lead singer on the greatest stage ever, by that I mean Heaven.

She will never be forgotten but she is now at peace.

Fondly,

Roberta

[nomis]

what Roshkind offered her at that meeting at the inn was pitiful - what,$6000 for the next five years or something close to that..he did offer her a solo contract at that fateful meeting and she turned it down..what I dont get is ok Baun got her share from the Supremes 3 accounts but what about royalties from worldwide sales ? the Sups were huge all over the world not only did no Motown artist have no clue of their domestic sales but international sales were even more of a muddy buisness..patmon and youngs legal documents vs. Gordy state that The Sups made like 3 million in 1967 alone but when you minus all those unreleased tracks they were charged and the costumes and things liike Gordys drink tabs for the media at The Copa what Baun got from Seltzer seems accurate...but only domestically what happened to international royalties..hmmmm

[Roberta75]

what Roshkind offered her at that meeting at the inn was pitiful - what,$6000 for the next five years or something close to that..he did offer her a solo contract at that fateful meeting and she turned it down..what I dont get is ok Baun got her share from the Supremes 3 accounts but what about royalties from worldwide sales ? the Sups were huge all over the world not only did no Motown artist have no clue of their domestic sales but international sales were even more of a muddy buisness..patmon and youngs legal documents vs. Gordy state that The Sups made like 3 million in 1967 alone but when you minus all those unreleased tracks they were charged and the costumes and things liike Gordys drink tabs for the media at The Copa what Baun got from Seltzer seems accurate...but only domestically what happened to international royalties..hmmmm

It is heartbreaking to think that almost every mortal man Florence came in contact with, either cheated or used her. Thank goodness Florence is now with the two greatest men, and both are looking out for her and taking care of her. By that I mean Jesus and God.

Flo, it's all behind you now. Sing Ave Maria with the Heavenly choir.

Roberta

[nomis]

your right Roberta apart from Otis Williams and Roger Pearson every other man just seemed to use and abuse her...

[Constantin]

*I recall reading that G.C. Cameron of the Spinners said that one of the reasons he could not follow the other guys to Atlantic Records was because his contract still had years on it. I gather the original members of the group signed their contracts at the same time, and they had all expired.


*And it ws done to Dennis Edwards, too.....It was done to "break-up" the group, contractually!!!

Jermaine Jackson too [[having married Gordy's daughter being an additional fact).

[ejluther]

Oh, come on - one of the posts above has to be a joke, right?

[milven]

What some of you may be forgetting is that Florence Ballard was still until contract to Motown Records when Berry Gordy "fired " her in July '67. It was basically not legal what he had done. I believe her contracts ran through 1968.
Having a contract does not prevent a boss from firing you. Contracts have certain conditions and if they are not met, the boss can fire you. Charlie Sheen had just signed a new contract for 2 & a Half Men, but he got fired by Chuck Lorre when he did not show up for work or showed up drugged up and also slammed his boss on national TV.

[BayouMotownMan]

Jean Terrell HAD to sign to Motown as a soloist because when she was signed, in mid-1969, the company was still not certain she was indeed going to replace Diana. They had to do test recordings and such on her. Syreeta and some other girls were still being considered. Jean's memory is always foggy, true, because it wasn't until right after the release of Someday We'll Be Together that Berry settled on Jean. In November, after the GIT special, the official announcement was made

[bradsupremes]

Jean Terrell HAD to sign to Motown as a soloist because when she was signed, in mid-1969, the company was still not certain she was indeed going to replace Diana. They had to do test recordings and such on her. Syreeta and some other girls were still being considered. Jean's memory is always foggy, true, because it wasn't until right after the release of Someday We'll Be Together that Berry settled on Jean. In November, after the GIT special, the official announcement was made

Who were the other ladies? I know Jean, Syreeta and Barbara Randolph were all considered, but I wasn't aware of other women.

[carlo]

Who were the other ladies? I know Jean, Syreeta and Barbara Randolph were all considered, but I wasn't aware of other women.

Shantel Baker.

[BayouMotownMan]

Many names floated around to my memory. Had Tammi Terrell not been seriously ill she probably had first choice. But it was obvious early on she couldn't handle it. Freda Payne was considered. Prior to 1969 Marilyn McCoo's name came up, but she soared in 1969 as lead singer of the 5th Dimension so that ended that fairly early on. I want to say I heard Thelma Houston's name. And tons of unknown up and coming singers were considered. Once Berry met Jean Terrell in the late spring of 1969. he was fairly confident it would between her and Syreeta which is why he quickly signed Jean to his label before someone else scooped her up. Scherrie Payne has said that she was considered without her knowledge, but she and Freda were signed to HDH's competing Invictus label which complicated their chances. It was a much sought-after position by many singers in 1969. A dream position which turned out to be career destroyer due to constant comparisons.

[bradsupremes]

Marilyn McCoo????

Can you imagine Marilyn McCoo joining the Supremes?! She would have been perfect in my book. Not only is she can incredible singer, but she's a striking beauty. Dare I say that a Marilyn-Mary-Cindy line-up would have been the most visually stunning group.

[carlo]

Marilyn McCoo as a Supreme would have been fabulous!

[BayouMotownMan]

In most cases guys, these were names tossed around and the artist in question was probably never contacted. Marilyn McCoo started grabbing attention with the Dimension in 1969 for Wedding Bell Blues and became their primary lead singer. When something like this is considered, as with Cindy, recording contracts have to be violated, buy-out and lawsuits settled which takes a lot of time and money. It's easier to go with someone already on the label

[jobeterob]

Marilyn McCoo would have been great.

[BayouMotownMan]

In the 1960, Marilyn was quoted as saying that the Supremes were her favorite group

[luke]

We cant just ignore what the principal players say. Jean said she was not signed as a solo and Mary Wilson said she was surprised Berry did so LITTLE looking for a replacement and settled on Jean so quickly. Randolph had been considered as a replacement for Flo not Diana.

[Jimi LaLumia]

any of the females excited about the spot wrongly assumed that the group would get the same support that the group got when Ross was there;
as per Mary Wilson's book, and elsewhere, that was a dangerously wrong assumption,as the rug was pulled out from the get go...
the eyes were on the prize and the prize was Diana Ross [[who I adore)...

[BayouMotownMan]

I don't think that Gordy had looked "so quickly," I think he signed Syreeta Wright with the intention of using her in Ross's spot. She even started recording Ross's demos.

It's just that when he stumbled upon Jean Terrell in Miami, he knew she was a contender. He mentioned the possibility of Jean replacing Diana to Ernie and Jean that very night.

[marv2]

Having a contract does not prevent a boss from firing you. Contracts have certain conditions and if they are not met, the boss can fire you. Charlie Sheen had just signed a new contract for 2 & a Half Men, but he got fired by Chuck Lorre when he did not show up for work or showed up drugged up and also slammed his boss on national TV.

No, but you as the boss leave yourself WIDE-OPEN to be sued......... She was an "employee" at will [[with a contract!) Motown was an "employer" at will [[that issued Ballard a contract!). She was willing and able to work. Florence was there at the Flamingo......ready to work.

She could have sued the Hell out of him and Motown if her case had been brought forth correctly.

[Shaqueetha_Jackson]

No, but you as the boss leave yourself WIDE-OPEN to be sued......... She was an "employee" at will [[with a contract!) Motown was an "employer" at will [[that issued Ballard a contract!). She was willing and able to work. Florence was there at the Flamingo......ready to work.

She could have sued the Hell out of him and Motown if her case had been brought forth correctly.



I hate what they did to Florence blondie ballard she should have soed the shit out of Barry gordy and motoen!

[marv2]

I hate what they did to Florence blondie ballard she should have soed the shit out of Barry gordy and motoen!

Perhaps she should have, but she settled.............

[BayouMotownMan]

As I said on Mysteries and Scandals, this was a case of David vs. Goliath...with this David not even having a slingshot. Motown was huge by then and Flo had too many witnesses to her drinking and acting out. She played into Motown's hands too easily.

Florence knew her limitations. She had an enormous amount of trouble even obtaining a lawyer to go against Motown. She felt if they would finally fire her [[she could not quit and pursue a solo career elsewhere and knew this) that this would ultimately set her free. She didn't know the terms of her contract, which stated she had no rights to use the name Supremes for self-promotion. Even ABC Records, when signing her, didn't know it. This pretty much shot Flo down to being just another nameless female vocalist.

It was a sad and unfortunate situation. But as Mary has said, a lot of people were responsible for Florence's destruction...none moreso than Flo herself

[luke]

Mary said he did the process very quickly--sure seemed that way.

[nomis]

the ABC contract gave her good leverage that either she or the label had the option not to renew the contract for the secound year if either party wasnt happy..it was only a two year contract she signed and I suspect that suited her..sadly the material she recorded at ABC was so lack lustre..but even after the contract was over there was still prestigous gigs she got such as singing for Nixon and opening for Bill Cosby..but Chapman and Baun were way out of their league..she was like a ball of string..slowly unravelling

[Roberta75]

the ABC contract gave her good leverage that either she or the label had the option not to renew the contract for the secound year if either party wasnt happy..it was only a two year contract she signed and I suspect that suited her..sadly the material she recorded at ABC was so lack lustre..but even after the contract was over there was still prestigous gigs she got such as singing for Nixon and opening for Bill Cosby..but Chapman and Baun were way out of their league..she was like a ball of string..slowly unravelling

I can't think about poor Flo tonight. I'm upset enough over Dick Clark and reading this about Flo just reduces me to tears.

The only comfort I have is both Miss Ballard and Mr. Clark are free from pain and with our Lord and Savior.

Roberta

[nomis]

Roberta - i was thinking about you earlier on today..your strength in the lord gives me much comfort on the other side of the world....keep close to the light and keep sharing your love for the lord,I for one feel your love and Im very thankful..bless you for making a rough day better for me..xxx

[marv2]

As I said on Mysteries and Scandals, this was a case of David vs. Goliath...with this David not even having a slingshot. Motown was huge by then and Flo had too many witnesses to her drinking and acting out. She played into Motown's hands too easily.

Florence knew her limitations. She had an enormous amount of trouble even obtaining a lawyer to go against Motown. She felt if they would finally fire her [[she could not quit and pursue a solo career elsewhere and knew this) that this would ultimately set her free. She didn't know the terms of her contract, which stated she had no rights to use the name Supremes for self-promotion. Even ABC Records, when signing her, didn't know it. This pretty much shot Flo down to being just another nameless female vocalist.

It was a sad and unfortunate situation. But as Mary has said, a lot of people were responsible for Florence's destruction...none moreso than Flo herself

Bottomline is.......there would not have been a court in the United States that would have sided with Motown against Florence Ballard! Much of what has been talked about in books and on the internet all these years HAVE NOTHING to do with what would have been brought up in court regarding her dismissal and compensation earned but not received for being in the Supremes! Screw everything and everyone else and just stick to the facts as to why all of them should been in court and you would have had Florence Ballard with the clear advantage. They tortured that girl. She did not destroy herself. People say shit like that now because she cannot defend herself against it. Oh well.....I guess that is the way of the World!

[Roberta75]

Roberta - i was thinking about you earlier on today..your strength in the lord gives me much comfort on the other side of the world....keep close to the light and keep sharing your love for the lord,I for one feel your love and Im very thankful..bless you for making a rough day better for me..xxx

Thank you for your beautiful words my darling angel. I try to help people by spreading the word of God. They are "his" words and they help and heal me. I feel blessed, touched and honored that "his" words have made your day better.

Trust in him and talk to him for he will surely hear you.

Sending you my love and gratitude.

Roberta

[detmotownguy]

Marv I feel that Flo had the street smarts to understand what was going and she was a brass tacks sort of lady and told things the way they were. I suggest that she had realistic view of things but just needed a tad better set of coping skills. An d yes, I agree with right legal team she could of won.

[marv2]

Marv I feel that Flo had the street smarts to understand what was going and she was a brass tacks sort of lady and told things the way they were. I suggest that she had realistic view of things but just needed a tad better set of coping skills. An d yes, I agree with right legal team she could of won.

True and Florence had a high school education and had to have felt intimidated when came to dealing with legal matters, attorneys and Motown! She needed someone she could really trust. Someone older, experienced and tough that would have supported her at that time. Florence was 24 years old facing all of this. When you consider that fact, there is no wonder why things got "out of bounds". There was no victory on Motown's part in how Florence was treated.

[nomis]

Gordy- "well girls have you chosen which High school were gonna tape this tv spot in front Of ?"
Flo - "We are still choosing Berry"
Gordy -"Well Blondie its really a choice for Diane and Mary seeing as you never graduated.."
Diana -"Well neither did you Berry !"

[marv2]

Gordy- "well girls have you chosen which High school were gonna tape this tv spot in front Of ?"
Flo - "We are still choosing Berry"
Gordy -"Well Blondie its really a choice for Diane and Mary seeing as you never graduated.."
Diana -"Well neither did you Berry !"

Just that little bit of dialogue should put things in perspective in a BIG WAY! LOL! Florence was a kid basically as were the others dealing in the rough and tumble World of entertainment. She had no one to look out for her or to guide her when things started going wrong.

[jobeterob]

Nice Nomis; they all loved Berry in the day! I bet they laughed when Diane said that.

[luke]

It's quite someting for a victim of sexual abuse to stand up to power figures the way Florence did. What a brave,spunky woman. Unfortunately she didnt get the help she needed not to internalize the abuse she received PS Good for Diana to give it back to Berry!

[nomis]

that basketball player who raped her was beaten to a bloody pulp when the neighbourhood found out what he had done to her days later outside her highschool....

[marv2]

that basketball player who raped her was beaten to a bloody pulp when the neighbourhood found out what he had done to her days later outside her highschool....

He was also shot and killed later on. I posted his picture on here a while back, Reggie, he was a jerk!