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jobeterob
09-08-2010, 12:59 AM
I wonder if any of you can speculate or have the answer to this question.

In Call Her Miss Ross, Randy quoted all kinds of sales figures; things like You Can't Hurry Love, Where Did Our Love Go, Ain't No Mountain High Enough selling 2 million copies; but he also said that songs like Baby Love, Come See About Me, Nothing But Heartaches, The Composer, Love Child, etc., did not sell the millions of records some of them were purported to have sold.

Some of his figures, looking back on them, seem questionable - particularly songs like Baby Love which really was one of the songs that opened R & B up to White America. Without Baby Love, would there have been Respect? And Love Child.

In Randy's second book, the update, the more comprehensive one, Randy dropped much of the sensational gossip...........and he dropped all the sales figures.

Does anyone know why? Did he find they were incorrect or unreliable?

Mary Wilson was quoted as saying that any song from Diana and the Supremes that made it into the Top 30 sold millions or a million - I believe she said that in her book, Dreamgirl. She should have known better than Randy because although their royalties were low, she did get paid her share based on sales of those singles and albums.

Does anyone have facts? Can anyone speculate?

carlo
09-08-2010, 01:33 AM
ANTHOLOGY
GOLD


SOMEDAY WE'LL BE TOGETHER
GOLD


SOMEDAY WE'LL BE TOGETHER
PLATINUM


BABY LOVE
GOLD


STOP, IN THE NAME OF LOVE
GOLD


ROSS, DIANA AND THE SUPREMES WITH THE TEMPTATIONS
I'M GONNA MAKE YOU LOVE ME
GOLD


ROSS, DIANA AND THE SUPREMES WITH THE TEMPTATIONS
I'M GONNA MAKE YOU LOVE ME
PLATINUM


ROSS, DIANA AND THE SUPREMES WITH THE TEMPTATIONS
TCB
GOLD


ROSS, DIANA AND THE SUPREMES WITH THE TEMPTATIONS
DIANA ROSS & THE SUPREMES JOIN THE TEMPTATIONS
GOLD

According to the RIAA database, these are the only Supremes records that were ever certified as gold or platinum. Berry never opened his books to the RIAA, so these certifications were awarded during the 80's and 90's. I find it hard to believe that no other records went gold or platinum.

nomis
09-08-2010, 01:36 AM
When Randy was writing Call Her Miss Ross someone who remains anonymous at Motown,gave him a print out of the sales figures up to that date [[Im guessing Mid '88)...however they were not accurate as they for starters,a)were only domestic and b)the information has been challenged in Posners book with the affidvants regarding the cut - out scam..there wasnt deeper enough research if the cut out scheme applied to "7 singles,It might well of,If it did then the print out Randy recieved in "88 is totally wrong..your asking "murky" questions Jobeterob...Berry allowed no outside accounting til [[if memory serves me right) about "76 - Im at work at my bookshop at the moment I need to check sources at home..But at least one Motowner has gone on record saying they made copies and sold it through car boots in NY in the mid 60s so there was SOME skimming on singles...Posners book isnt very good apart from the information on cut outs..one thing IS for sure this was all going on unbeknowest to Berry..his employees were ripping his company off...but cut outs and scamming only really works on HIT records..We will never know the true figures..Berry never wanted the sales figures public..
Back to Randy -whats not known about the print out he was given was how far back it went..you can agree with something like "Sleepin" selling so low as it did..but did the figures on the print out include the inital sales of an early hit like "baby Love" or was it tallied at a later date in the singles distribution...say a month or so after it charted..thats the real question..this is all murky waters...Diana and Mary have disputed the figures..Diana not so The supremes but she questioned how much "Its My Turn" sold which i think on memory without checking was something like 143.000 copies or something...either Berry allowed stock to be sold "Off the books" or staff did it to him without his knowledge..the testimonials in Posners book give an indication it happened to LPs..as for singles Im not sure...

sup_fan
09-08-2010, 08:36 AM
i remember this dialog coming up a year or so ago. Randy [[not sure if he's on the boards any more or not) made a comment that was interesting. Chart peak position does not necessarily reflect total sales figures. rather it's chart duration. He gave an example of Love Is Here And Now You're Gone vs Jimmy Mack. Love fly up the charts quickly, peaked at #1 and then quickly slide back down. whereas Jimmy did a long and slow burn. Sure hitting #1 is exciting but look at Stoned Love. didn't reach 1 on the pop charts but did make it to 7 and was on the charts forever. it's one of the biggest selling Sup singles OF ALL TIME. I think the list of the top ones includes Where Did Our Love Go, You Can't Hurry Love, Love Child, I'm Gonna Make You Love Me, Someday We'll Be Together and Stoned Love.

While Diana and Mary might claim to have sold more, they really might NOT know the if they did or didn't. Part of their complaints with Berry included the fact that they weren't given clear and [[in their minds) accurate accounting of their sales figures. I thought Mary mentioned something in one of her books about how you could do an audit but only 1x a year and it would only cover a 6 month period. so essentially useless. Motown was notorious for inflating it's figures for PR purposes. Often times for the Sups, they didn't have to do much. but for others they generally did. If people think you're hugely successful, they have more confidence in you, your business and your products.

randy_russi
09-08-2010, 08:49 AM
The sales figures that Motown had were probably not accurate because of paying royalties for sales, perhaps.
Mary Wells told me that they told her "My Guy" was NOT a million seller, only selling about a half million.
Go figure! She went on to say that they claimed to have bought the chart positions for her.

pj1
09-08-2010, 08:58 AM
Mary Wells told me that they told her "My Guy" was NOT a million seller, only selling about a half million.
Go figure! She went on to say that they claimed to have bought the chart positions for her.

Do you know if this was before or after Motown had inklings that she was preparing to leave the company? That would make a big difference.

luke
09-08-2010, 09:30 AM
Could "Motown" get this all straightened out now? Getting a thorough RIAA audit. Cant an artist request it to get a thorough royalty accounting?

jobeterob
09-08-2010, 12:50 PM
No, not now. The information is long gone and probably was never provided to Universal when they bought Motown. The consensus is that the information is no longer available at all. If a record company requests an audit for RIAA purposes, they need to provide the information. One of the huge problems with RIAA audits is that they were done on records or CDS "shipped" - there have been huge numbers of returned CDs and records issued by artists like Whitney Houston and Michael Jackson in order to get certified gold and platinum when the actual sales were far lower.

The information that Sup Fan mentions was provided by Rick Bueche. But again, it was basically Randy's information and I believe it is generally now regarded as inaccurate.

I believe information like Randy Russi's is as accurate as we will get these days.

I am not sure that Berry Gordy or Diana Ross truly know what the Supremes records sold or Diana's.

There was talk from some corner once that there were only 3 artists on Motown Records that ever made money and THAT was the real reason that Berry "favoured" Diana and the Supremes.

Glenpwood
09-08-2010, 02:23 PM
Motown wouldn't have been required to keep sales info for auditing past 7-10 for tax purposes. I recently read Tommy James' autobiography and when he had trouble getting an accurate accounting of the records he sold for Roulette he found his way around the label and it's union ties by going to the label printers to get a count of how many labels were ordered to put onto the vinyl. He claims it worked out to some insane amount like 60 million dollars he was owed. Of course he never got it but imagine if the girls had gone that route in their attempts to get an accurate accounting....

stingbeelee
09-08-2010, 03:47 PM
Trying to get to the bottom of Supremes sales is almost impossible. It is generally accepted as a fact that the Supremes are the biggest female group of all time. It is generally accepted that they are the biggest vocal group of all time. Every list I looked at regarding the top 100 [[or 500 or 1000) artists of all time, they are in the top twenty. And yet, when you look at the various websites for sales, they put the Supremes as selling 15 - 25 million records worldwide. HOW IN THE WORLD can you be the second biggest act of the 60's, only behind the Beatles, and you only sell 15 -25 million? It's almost an impossibility.
If you look at the top twenty artists of all time, sales begin at estamates of 200 million worldwide up to the 600 million to 1 billion records sold for Elvis/The Beatles. Would'nt that seem to point out that the Supremes sold at least 200 million records worldwide?
The Supremes had 12 number one hits, but apparently, if you look at sale figures that have been reported on websites and this forum in the past, the Supremes number one hits sold far far less that anyone else's number one hits; in fact they should only be perhaps number 100 - 120 for the top 100 artists of all time.
For reference, I looked at two websites that seem to indicate "somewhere in the ballpark" figures for the Supremes that seem to be more accurate than others:
http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/77079
http://www.hitsville.org/2009/07/12/everything-you-ever-wanted-to-know-about-worldwide-record-sales%E2%80%94jackson-the-beatles-pink-floyd-and-more/

These two websites might be the closest we may get to know the true figures.

daviddh
09-08-2010, 05:19 PM
when i was last on the RIAA website i noticed that the Temptations and J5 record info....should i say ,Gold certifications were listed but with the Supremes , only a few listed above.
i did read that only an artist could ask for an audit and they had to pay for it.?
i have seen a few gold record awards for the supremes, one was SUPREMES GREATEST HITS 67 and it stated on the front the lps sold 2 million copies. also WHERE DID OUR LOVE GO lp sold about 1 million. i think the other gold lps were AT THE COPA,MERRY CHRISTMAS,A GO GO ,MORE HITS, SING HDH,GREATEST HITS 3. i am not sure about the others but some of the ohter albums had long chart runs such as I HEAR A SYMPHONY.
i am not sure i believe motown was able to buy a position for a song ???maybe ,but i would think it would be hard to buy everyone. on the billboard charts ,the sales reflected sales,jukebox plays,radio spins and requests etc ,while cashbox was based upon sales only and usually the chart peaks were fairly close. only one song really was odd to me and that was FOREVER CAME TODAY, which made #13 on cashbox while only #30 on Billboard
it is also possible that motown issued gold records for total sales rather than just domestic sales. at least that is how i was told it was done or maybe the rules have changed.
but to me,if motown was buying positons for the supremes, why not continue to do so when songs such as NO MATTER WHAT SIGN YOU ARE was released. another reason why i not convinced of this happening. but that is not saying it didnt.
i just believe they were millions sellers because they were great songs!

sup_fan
09-08-2010, 05:51 PM
today everyone kid buys all the songs/downloads. even in the 90s kids had the means to buy tons and tons of cd and cassette singles [[or those of you old enough to remember them being called cassingles lol!)

back in the 60s, there just wasn't the disposable income like there is today. kids just didn't have the funds to buy every single 45. so record sales from the 60s need to be kept in perspective. I read that TLC claims to be the biggest selling female act. Destiny Child says the same thing. Sure they might have sold a zillion records but they each only had 3 or 4 number ones and then a handful of other top 10 and top 40 hits. the Supremes had 12 #1 and 35 or so additional top 40 hits.

it's like inflation, needs to be references to the time period. not the absolutes

jobeterob
09-08-2010, 06:19 PM
These are from stingbeelee's post above:


by motown on March 20th, 2009


They were huge sellers all over the world. I do know some of the individual albums sales figures for U.S. sales. The figures were rounded to the nearest thousand.

Where Did Our Love Go- 3,225,000
A Bit of Liverpool- 839,000
Supremes At The Copa- 1,316,000
More Hits By....- 1,642,000
I Hear A Symphony- 1,894,000
Supremes A' Go-Go- 3,469,000
Supremes Sing H-D-H- 1,518,000
Greatest Hits 5,975,000
Reflections 724,000
Funny Girl 217,000
Love Child 683,000
TCB 1,426,000
Join The Temps 1,397,000
We Remember Sam Cooke 306,000
Cream Of The Crop 566,000
Let The Sunshine In 602,000
Together 492,000
Greatest Vol 3 1,216,000
Rogers & Hart 486,000
Country, Western & Pop 178,000
Live At Talk Of Town 382,000
Meet The Supremes 146,000
Anthology 982,000
25th Anniversary 429,000

These aren't all albums ever released, only ones I was told U.S. sales figures for

Selected U.S. Singles Sales

Where Did Our Love Go 2,720,000
Baby Love 3,496,000
Come See About Me 1,870,000
Stop! In The Name 2,154,000
Back In My Arms 1,029,000
Nothing But Heartaches 588,000
I Hear A Symphony 1,604,000
My World Is Empty 1,371,000
Love Is Like An Itch 632,000
You Can't Hurry Love 2,424,000
You Keep Me Hangin' 1,758,000
Love Is Here And Now 949,000
The Happening 897,000
Refelections 1,277,000
In And Out Of Love 762,000
Forever Came Today 298,000
Some Things You Never 317,000
Love Child 2,899,000
I'm Gonna Make You lo 1,557,000
I'm Livin In Shame 513,000
The Composer 204,000
I'll Try Something New 273,000
Someday We'll Be... 3,077,000



Read more: Does anyone know how many total records the Supremes sold world-wide? | Answerbag http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/77079#ixzz0yyllLnzA

RossHolloway
09-08-2010, 06:54 PM
question: how many albums needed to be sold to cover the recording costs? ie. at what sales point did an album make a profit? what about a single?

jobeterob
09-08-2010, 07:57 PM
It depends how long you spent in the studio. David Morse said the Supremes, especially Diana, could perfect a take in the shortest period of time; often she would oversing the song after the first take or two. Now, Norman Whitfield and Marvin Gaye and Stevie Wonder, in the 70's, likely spent months and years in the studio and if they didn't own it ~ it might have taken many many thousands or hundreds of thousands of album sales to recoup those kinds of costs. Advertising costs could be a fortune too.

nomis
09-08-2010, 08:04 PM
yes that why Berry said 'If the other girls dont show up..just record Diane..its easier and cheaper..."

nomis
09-08-2010, 08:59 PM
..also History is constantly being rewritten that the Supremes were not "hot" by '68 when the Greatest Hits was in fact trucking out of stores..these figures highlight just how big that first compilation was..singles might have not been doing that well but the girls still had a smash LP on the charts..

daviddh
09-08-2010, 09:20 PM
at one point ,sales est were 55,ooo,ooo and the girls logged in anothe r5 million in 70 with jean on leads

luke
09-08-2010, 09:37 PM
Years ago Randy said Mary [[and I assume Diana) collects about 80,000 a year in royalties.

daviddh
09-08-2010, 09:40 PM
wonder what diana biggest singles[solo] were , i suppose AINT NO MOUTAIN was her biggest seller? any info on th e70s supremes sales?

nomis
09-08-2010, 09:42 PM
I know Upside Down,and Endless love were million sellers at the time..if remember correctly there were two other singles mentioned in Call Her Miss Ross she had four solo million sellers and one duet....

stingbeelee
09-08-2010, 09:49 PM
Thanks, Jobeterob, for posting the list. I wonder who agree with the listing of the sales figures of the individual singles and albums and the estimated 190 million records sold worldwide [[up to the present?)

nomis
09-08-2010, 09:57 PM
Ive got the figures from '91- since soundscan was introduced ..of all of Dianas albums..I will put the figures up if anyones interested...

jillfoster
09-08-2010, 11:10 PM
Ive got the figures from '91- since soundscan was introduced ..of all of Dianas albums..I will put the figures up if anyones interested...

sure, i'm interested in any soundscan numbers you may have. I wonder how much that 70's anthology sold... when I went to pick mine up on day of release, there were 6 others on hold for other people... and this is just one store in Overland park, Kansas.

nomis
09-08-2010, 11:17 PM
will put them up when I get home from work Jill..

nomis
09-09-2010, 01:09 AM
phew had to look through thousands of pages of documents to find the soundscan data,This was orginaly posted by Jobeterob on 06 July 2006 - Jobeterob I hope you dont mind me re posting your data...this is the retail sales for 96/97/98 ONLY but gives you an idea of what the numbers were in the late 90s..

14 Greatest Hits.....16,916
Aint No Moutain.......5,138
All The Great love Songs....49
All The Great Hits...268,132
All The Great Love Songs....5,914
Anthology....73,708
Anthology best of...51
Baby Its Me...346
Best years Of My Life...9,103
Bottom Line...2
Boss....5,650
Diana extended...38
Diana Duets...3,559
Diana Ross..6,148
Diana...7,573
Diana/The Boss....839
Diana ross Live....78,918
Diana extended/The remixes.....68,931
eaten Alive...79
Eaten alive...1,449
Endless Love...1,726
Evening With...11,663
Force Behind The Power..98,695

The rest to follow...

nomis
09-09-2010, 01:23 AM
and...

Gone....4,805
Greatest hits Live....136
Greatest hits RCA Years...11,247
Greatest hits....83,270
Hits of Vol 1....275
Hits of....511
I Will Survive...1,536
If Your Not Gonna..40
Live At Ceasers Palace...7,760
Love Hangover 89....62
One Woman....196,172
Red Hot Rnb....685
Ross....242
Silk Electric...1,966
Surrender..312
Surrender/aint No moutain....469
swept away...8,728
Take Me Higher single...37,855
Take Me Higher...101,684
This House..67
Touch Me In The Morning..4,871
Touch Me In The Morning/Baby its Me..606
Visions Of Diana ross..69
Visions of Diana Ross...3,755
Voice Of Love...33
Voice Of the Heart...6,725
Waiting In the Wings...903
Why Do Fools..5
When You tell Me...16,906
Why do Fools Fall...7,477
Workin Overtime...3,328
Your Gonna Love It...4,137

total albums for the years..96/97/98.to Oct...1,155,368
total singles for the same period..82,141
total videos..3842

BIG THANKS TO JOBETEROB FOR THE ORIGINAL POST - TOOK HIM AN HOUR TO TYPE ! -wasnt in vain buddy I kept a copy
Nomis

jobeterob
09-09-2010, 01:56 AM
Good job Nomis.

Diana and Mary are now getting perhaps $8000 a year in royalties from sales of Supremes CDS; sales have died. The figures from 25 years ago bear no relation to what is available now. This is why artists today need to tour if they want to make any money.

Diana renegotiated her royalty rate while most other Motown artists, Mary included, couldn't because they were not current artists selling anything.

The only facts I know are that country music and pop music used to sell a lot more than Soul Music. Where Did Our Love Go was the best selling album of 1964 [[other than a Soundtrack, The Sound of Music).........and that includes Beatle albums and it comes from Universal.

It would be great if Randy would comment on here; he was or is a member. But he generally keeps a low profile.

Glenpwood
09-09-2010, 11:59 AM
Not to split hairs but how can records that were easily obtainable on store shelves in 96, 97, 98 be outsold by other ones long out of print by that point? Apparantly I bought one of of the 38 copies of "Diana Extended" I saw in the stores but somehow "Swept Away" which had been cut out by BMG several years before sold 8,728? I never saw it in cut out bins unlike some other Ross product listed in those years even if they were scanning the original bar code [[which in the case of deleted items is usually covered by the distributor with a generic one so they don't have to pay an artist a royalty on the product since its considered a pressing overrun)

jillfoster
09-09-2010, 03:01 PM
thanks, Nomis... very interesting figures indeed.

skooldem1
09-09-2010, 03:34 PM
Not to split hairs but how can records that were easily obtainable on store shelves in 96, 97, 98 be outsold by other ones long out of print by that point? Apparantly I bought one of of the 38 copies of "Diana Extended"


Not sure why, but this is listed twice. Were there two different versions? I have a vinyl version of this as well as the CD. Is that considered in a seperate category?

Diana extended...38
Diana extended/The remixes.....68,931

nomis
09-09-2010, 06:25 PM
Skooldem - not sure what the 38 is...could be vinyl but I think 68 thousand of a cd that wasnt really promoted had no current single on the charts and was a remix project is a healthy number..remix albums tend to not do so well...

daviddh
09-09-2010, 08:39 PM
the only supremes lps not listed ,it seems is TALK OF THE TOWN and MERRY CHRISTMAS but i saw a platinum lp award for the xmzs lp and it staed it sold 3 million +

daviddh
09-09-2010, 08:54 PM
just found the TALK OF THE TOWN LP, sorry ,missed it.thanks for the info

jobeterob
09-10-2010, 02:38 AM
Those Soundscan figures were only for a period of time; but they are the real figures; Soundscan is also only a sample and that is the sample from 12 years ago; who knows who was and wasn't reporting then; it doesn't cover everything although I think they try to be very inclusive now. Also, certain CDs/Vinyl/Singles might have been available only for a while.

topdiva1
09-12-2010, 04:50 PM
While millions of records where sold on The Supremes, and Diana Ross and The Supremes - not one of the ladies seems to know how much money they should have gotten in reality - I believe sales figures and books at Motown where never near correct - and most likely they had SEVERAL sets of books.

There is however some great information here. I would not bet on any of it being remotely correct.

luke
09-13-2010, 09:17 AM
Did Mary get an accounting in 1977 when she sued? I cant believe she and Diana dont ask for a full accounting NOW.

daviddh
09-15-2010, 02:03 PM
thought it was funny that according to the info above A GO GO sold more copies than WHERE DID OUR LOVE GO ,which had 3 #1 singles, but i suppose it's possible as it seems to be a fan favorite, although i prefer WDOLG over GO GO.
anyone got the sales figures for dianas solo albums?

topdiva1
09-15-2010, 07:52 PM
No one- even the principle players will ever REALLY know what was sold, and how much was made.

jobeterob
09-15-2010, 10:30 PM
If you carefully ready the liner notes for the extended Where Did Our Love Go LP, Harry Weinger writes:

"But by the end of the year, The Supremes score three No. 1 hits in a row and a No. 1 LP that is the top selling pop music album of 1964. They are not only Motown's biggest act, they are the biggest female group in the world."

Who knows exactly what those words mean.

As others have written on here, no one really knows what got sold.

Diana has been given statements since sometime in her solo career but their accuracy, especially in the early years might be questioned.

And the sales are basically finished. They struggle to sell 5000 copies of Meet the Supremes and 10,000 copies of Where Did Our Love Go.

nomis
09-15-2010, 10:42 PM
"You know I never really counted which one sold the most" Diana on single sales in '99 to Chris Evans

rubcale
10-04-2010, 01:07 PM
Selected U.S. Singles Sales

Where Did Our Love Go 2,720,000
Baby Love 3,496,000
Come See About Me 1,870,000
Stop! In The Name 2,154,000
Back In My Arms 1,029,000
Nothing But Heartaches 588,000
I Hear A Symphony 1,604,000
My World Is Empty 1,371,000
Love Is Like An Itch 632,000
You Can't Hurry Love 2,424,000
You Keep Me Hangin' 1,758,000
Love Is Here And Now 949,000
The Happening 897,000
Refelections 1,277,000
In And Out Of Love 762,000
Forever Came Today 298,000
Some Things You Never 317,000
Love Child 2,899,000
I'm Gonna Make You lo 1,557,000
I'm Livin In Shame 513,000
The Composer 204,000
I'll Try Something New 273,000
Someday We'll Be... 3,077,000



Read more: Does anyone know how many total records the Supremes sold world-wide? | Answerbag http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/77079#ixzz0yyllLnzA

I think those are definitely worldwide figures not just US.

The first Tarraborelli biography gave quite a few sales figures for the US which he obtained from an un-named source at Motown and I believe are pretty accurate. These were sales during the initial release of the records.

These are figures he quoted:

Where Did Our Love Go 1,072,290
Nothing But Heartaches 368,267
My World Is Empty Without You close to 500,000
Love Is Like An Itching In My Heart 368,000
You Can't Hurry Love 1,104,012
Some Things You Never Get Used To 202,693
The Composer close to 200,000
No Matter What Sign You Are under 300,000

Reach Out And Touch barely 500,000
Ain't No Mountain High Enough 1,243,738
Remember Me 540,940
Reach Out [[I'll Be There) 254,307
Touch Me In The Morning 1,504,909
Last Time I Saw Him 643,740
Sleepin' 46,162
Do You Know Where You're Going To? 882,272
The Boss close to 250,000
It's My Turn 434,794

Motown's sales figures were though notoriously incomplete.

He stated that only four Supreme's singles were instant million sellers - Where Did Our Love Go, You Can't Hurry Love, Love Child and Someday We'll Be Together [[the biggest seller of all) plus the collaboration with the Temptations, I'm Gonna Make You Love Me.

Baby Love, Come See About Me, Stop! In The Name Of Love and You Keep me Hangin' On passed the million sales mark in the US over the years. The interesting one here is Baby Love. It was the big international hit of their early career but it was no secret in the US that WDOLG was the bigger domestic seller.

Diana solo also had four instant million sellers: Ain't No Mountain High Enough, Touch Me In The Morning, Love Hangover and Upside Down plus the duet with Lionel Richie, Endless Love her biggest seller of all at well over 2million and the biggest selling record of 1981 in the US.

jobeterob
10-04-2010, 01:34 PM
Interesting but both lists look suspect, unreliable and/or made up from "best sources" to me.

midnightman
10-05-2010, 04:32 AM
I don't know if Motown/The Supremes' sales situation is THAT unique, not lots of folks were selling copies like that and it's been stated that those that do get "the biggest sales" are often inflated because labels would ask for it. Otherwise labels would skip audits in fear of taxes.

randy_russi
10-05-2010, 11:43 AM
In response to my post on Mary Wells' statement to me about Motown and her record sales, apparently she was having
disputes with them all along. According to her, they would stall her releases while she had an attorney checking
sales figures, etc. This is why she only had ten releases between '61 and '64 while a group like the Supremes, who
hadn't hit yet, had nine releases during the same time period.
This is one of the major reasons she left the company. The subject of "My Guy" may or may not have come up
when they knew she was leaving, although I'd bet it was when they knew she was leaving, but it really makes
no difference because Motown never awarded her a gold record for any of her other major hits--You Beat Me
To The Punch, Two Lovers.
Hopefully this will all be in greater detail in Peter Benjaminson's bio of Mary Wells coming soon.

midnightman
10-05-2010, 05:20 PM
^ Man I hope that book comes out [[and that TV One does an "Unsung" on her). It seems Mary had some stories to tell and we never got to hear them [[same with the Marvelettes).

topdiva1
10-05-2010, 08:47 PM
I believe that there could of been a real dark side and under belly that operated at Motown - and most of you fans do not want to hear it.

If Randy has the balls to write about some of that, instead of reprinting sales figures , he found doing some research - maybe he can be the next kitty kelly -

midnightman
10-05-2010, 10:50 PM
There's a dark side to every thing. The problem is when people wanna just discuss that is when it becomes a problem.

Ain't that we "don't wanna know about it", but we know about it a little too much to the point where people don't even give a damn anymore. You think people are gonna be that fascinated by behind the scenes stories unless they themselves were Motown fanatics.

topdiva1
10-05-2010, 11:19 PM
There's a dark side to every thing. The problem is when people wanna just discuss that is when it becomes a problem.

Ain't that we "don't wanna know about it", but we know about it a little too much to the point where people don't even give a damn anymore. You think people are gonna be that fascinated by behind the scenes stories unless they themselves were Motown fanatics.


Great point - thanks so much!

florence
06-21-2011, 10:43 AM
One of the world's great mysteries - the Supremes and Diana's sales figures.

I always believed that the figures J Randy Tarraborelli gave in his 1989 Call Her Miss Ross were pretty plausible with what was generally known and they had apparently been given to him by someone at Motown - certainly they were printed in good faith. He never made any attempt to give RCA ones - he didn't have them.

I was looking forward to the 2007 updated biography and eagerly looking forward to any further info. on sales only to find almost all details on sales had been removed which begs the question why? I never heard that there had been any legal problems but what we do know is that he received some 10,000 pages of documents in 1990 with all Motown sales figures up to then and that the figures contained in these certainly in relation to singles were right as the figures which were quoted in Court with regard to the Jacksons in a case agreed.

There has been some suggestion that the initial figures JRT was supplied were wrong so it could be why they were removed from the latest biography but then why couldn't the up-to-date ones be given? Maybe he though it wouldn't look good but who knows.

But it does then leave me wondering about his first claims.

Then there is the list posted above by jobeterobe apparently originating from stingbeelee which while strangely agreeing with JRT for some of the lower selling singles differs massively regarding the bigger ones.

There is nothing to say where these figures eminated from [[nor up to what date these sales were), which immediately makes it hard to accept and some of them do look way, way too high and possibly are maybe worldwide figures rather than US alone but then again I can't say they are wrong either - what do I know.

What is intriguing is the out-of-the-blue certifications for several singles [[and albums) by the RIAA in the 1997.

It's always been accepted that Someday We'll Be Together was the biggest seller of the group's singles going over 2m in the US alone so Platinum certification is only right.

Strangely the other Platinum certification is for the collaboration with the Temptations I'm Gonna Make You Love Me which is only given sales of 1.557m. Are we to believe that this figures is after returns and while over 2m were shipped some 500k were returned? That sounds implausible.

Only 2 other singles were certified both for Gold - Baby Love and Stop! In The Name Of Love. There can be no doubt that several other singles at least sold 1m plus [[ many of them if the above list is right) so it begs the question why SITNOL and not, in particular You Can't Hurry Love nor Love Child which unless we're all wrong were bigger sellers.

Also if they were going to the bother of submitting for a Gold Disc why would they not also claim Platinum when the figures show sales of 2m+? Maybe the records sold some on Download so SITNOL reached the figure after 1997, depending on when the original list was up to but it would be nonsensical to think Baby Love had sold a million and a half since then so the fact that it was only certified Gold tends to make me think that the figure of near 3.5m quoted cannot be right.

Anyone know anything behind why these Certifications suddenly appeared?

We know Motown's documentation was a mess and it was a problem getting sales figures for all artists but the same seems to apply for Diana with RCA. I have never come across any sales info with regard to her singles with them. I'm not from the US so maybe there could have been figures reported but I did have a subscription to Billboard and never read anything in it.

We have the awards for albums so you would have to assume that had any of Diana's singles there reached 1m a Gold award would have been claimed.

It is notoriously difficult to equate sales with chart position reached in the US particularly as there are different genre markets . Also position reached in Cash Box or Record World is more reliable than Billboard as the were sales only based.

Speculation only but you would think Why Do Fools Fall In Love #6 Record World must have gone well over 500k surely 600k minimum and probably many more. It sold 300k+ in the UK plus it was #1 in both Holland and Belgium and a hit in other countries so must be globally over 1m.

Mirror Mirror was #8 Record World and you would think passed the 500k mark although it didn't do as well internationally, only #36 in UK.

Muscles might also have passed 500k in US - #7 in Cash Box. Although only #15 in UK it sold around 125k and if US sales were nearer 1m than 500k then sales in other territories could put it over 1m.

Missing You is an interesting one. It yo-yoed about the 40s and 50s before Diana's performance of it on a tribute to Marvin Gaye sent it up to the top 10. Even if sales wouldn't be that great in the mid-chart an accumulation of a large number of these could mount up to a significant total and it was on the charts for like 6 months. On the other hand it just made it to the bottom of the Cash Box top 20 so it's difficult to know. It didn't do that well outside the US either. Surprisingly only #76 in the UK.

It's hard to see any other of Diana's single releases on RCA doing over 500k in the US alone.

Swept Away #22 on Cash Box maybe getting towards it?

On a worldwide basis I was initially seduced by reports of If We Hold On Together being on the Japanese charts for a couple of years and selling millions there alone! But it transpires that there is a separate chart there for "foreign" releases and that is what the chart tenancy referred to. Being in the lower reaches of that for a year doesn't equate to large sales. It would appear that while it was #1 on the International Chart it reached #3 overall and sold just over 465k. I have seen this quoted on a couple of sites and there is a citation on Wikipedia. The record also sold 140k in the UK so it puts it over 600k.

One other big seller from the RCA years was the brilliant Chain Reaction [[what on earth were you thinking of US?!!!). Sales to date of 725k in the UK. It shifted another few thousand this year when the tune [[not Diana's original though) was featured on an advertisement for a Web comparison site. Two short spells on the US Hot 100 reaching the 60s second time around would give it maybe 60k but say 40k at least. It was #1 in the Republic Of Ireland in the same period as the UK 25-30k. 8 weeks on the German chart which although only peaking at #11 would be well over 60k plus a smaller hit in other European countries. #3 in New Zealand and according to the Bee Gees website it was a #1 hit in Venezuela!!

But it was a major hit in Australia - #1 in 1986 and among the very biggest sellers of the year. It may even have been the biggest but certainly on the year end chart [[calculated similar to Billboard on chart performance) it emerged as #1. Sales surely of 150k+. Surely it will have sold amounts in various other countries which if not already past the 1m in those quoted would take it there.

It could very well be that accumulative sales of these singles throughout the world could amount to much more than I think - it's all speculation.

Has anyone ever seen anything concrete about Diana's singles sales in the 80s and 90s?

Along with countless others I would love to know the sales [[singles particularly) of both group and solo for Diana.

I can't believe that all records would have been expunged and that somebody somewhere must know them or would have excess to them but they're keeping it a closely guarded secret!

I suppose I'll just have to accept that if they do somehow ever come to light it will be The Impossible Dream.

luke
06-21-2011, 12:16 PM
I fint it very hard to believe Baby Love wasnt an instant milllion seller. It went flying top of charts and is their most reconizable hit from that period. I had always thought Love Child was the biggest hit. In this day with high powered lawyers and artists having more and more power it just doesnt make sense why the Supremes sales are such a mystery.

marv2
06-21-2011, 12:47 PM
I fint it very hard to believe Baby Love wasnt an instant milllion seller. It went flying top of charts and is their most reconizable hit from that period. I had always thought Love Child was the biggest hit. In this day with high powered lawyers and artists having more and more power it just doesnt make sense why the Supremes sales are such a mystery.

I doubt if the IRS even knew sales figures for most Record Companies. It's just a lot of speculation.

jobeterob
06-21-2011, 12:50 PM
Luke, you are probably right; those two songs likely sold a couple of million minimum. I think Baby Love opened Motown to the world; Where Did Our Love Go opened Motown to the USA, but Baby Love did it everywhere else.

Midnite J. recently did a remix of the song which made me be able to stand the song again; but it's not my favorite by far.

But sales figures will never come out at this late stage and I bet the information is gone, if it ever existed on paper.

theboyfromxtown
06-21-2011, 12:57 PM
Not sure why there should be any secrecy anymore. Under Freedom Of Information legislation, we can find out what our Prime Minister was doing many years ago simply by inspecting official documents. I can't think why the sales figures of any artist should not be known, if it is avaialble. And maybe it is simply not available...records lost, destroyed etc.

luke
06-21-2011, 01:26 PM
lol-well said boy!! are sales of other Motown artists also this mysterious? Havent Martha, Brenda and others gotten accountings and appropriate royalties??

jobeterob
06-21-2011, 01:49 PM
I think all of this material is lost and/or destroyed.

And while you can obtain Government information, it is very much harder to obtain that for a private company; and Motown was a private, not a public company.

For music fans, and Motown fans in particular, this lack of information is one of the most annoying issues. I remember Mary Wilson said in her first book that if a Supremes single reached in the 30's, it sold "millions". And then at one stage, Randy Tarraborelli said songs like The Composer only sold about 300,000 copies and that Back In My Arms Again and Come See About me didn't sell what we thought. But I think Randy's figures were discredited; he dropped almost all of them from his definitive Ross biography.

But it has long been rumoured that many Motown artists sold a lot less than was suggested to the public and that Motown's second tier had a lot more turntable hits than sales.

theboyfromxtown
06-21-2011, 03:13 PM
Rob

Not all that information is held by Motown and/or private companies. I am not sure what official documentation is provided to the US government but I am routinely asked by the UK government to complete statistical forms for private businesses which includes breakdowns down to individual sales type in accordance with some numbering system.

Surely Motown would not be the only business who would know these figures. Who gives it to them initially? I can't imagine Motown employed a counter!! And would they and the organisations that authenticate awards all private businesses?

Then there is data put onto a computer. Isn't that another avenue where information can be sought?

It seems to me that, these days, there is a wealth of information that can be obtained and it simply a case of finding out how to get at it.

luke
06-21-2011, 05:14 PM
Yep-and again many HAVE gotten it--Brenda, Martha, Jean...

jobeterob
06-21-2011, 05:38 PM
But John, there weren't computers when Where Did Our Love Go came out. And Motown never let the RIAA in and even the RIAA's numbers are suspect. And Motown had "in house" accounting, didn't they? So alot of was kept within. I think a lot more is available these days that in the past, but I suspect there isn't much left from Motown in it's heyday.

I don't think many of the old Motown artists made much off of any lawsuit they initiated; most of them never went anywhere. Can you imagine what Brenda Holloway makes for royalties from Motown? I suspect it would be under $300 a year. Lesley Gore once said she never saw a cent from Mercury from when she left in 1969 through to 1989. And these days, CDs are selling much anyway.

Some of the lawsuits related to being paid by Universal for reissues on CD etc., and I suspect a settlement was made where they agreed to pay the royalties; they just don't amount to much.

I wonder if Andy would be allowed to make a comment on royalties.

reese
06-21-2011, 05:55 PM
I recall reading an interview with Brenda Holloway where she said she made good songwriting royalties from YOU'VE MADE ME SO VERY HAPPY, but that she was still getting statements for $39,000 that she owed in recording costs. She said that they took $1000 a year from somewhere to dwindle down that debt.

marv2
06-21-2011, 07:16 PM
Yep-and again many HAVE gotten it--Brenda, Martha, Jean...

Jean got paid in 1994.

luke
06-21-2011, 08:16 PM
Marv-does Jean continue to get royalties?

marv2
06-21-2011, 10:08 PM
Marv-does Jean continue to get royalties?

As far as I know and according to her most recent settlement. What was amazing is that she remembered even the most minute [[sp?) details in how Motown charged the Supremes account for EVERYTHING you could just about imagine! LOL!!!

luke
06-21-2011, 10:16 PM
Good for her! Miss Jean dont take no mess!

jobeterob
06-22-2011, 02:04 AM
I think the Lesley Gore story is the Brenda Holloway story is the Martha Reeves story is the Jean Terrell story; I wish it were otherwise. All of these people and countless others got billed for everything and many artists got ripped off much worse than Berry Gordy ever did to them.

Glenpwood
06-22-2011, 09:29 AM
Getting charged for everything by a label still goes on to this day. Videos, promotion, recording costs, production fees, paying for beats, it all goes against the artists royalties. Of course artists now tend to multitask to make back income by doing reality TV, have clothing lines, tour constantly, do private corporate gigs/birthday parties since you can't sit back and just let CD sales carry you. I know of an eighties act on Atlantic Records who still get bills today for unpaid expenses from their flops that they're still trying to collect on. Skimming off the top is still common but also you have artists willing to sign deals leveraged to benefit the label more than them just to get famous so it will always remain a huge problem in the industry.

RossHolloway
06-22-2011, 09:40 AM
Question: if a producer laid down a track and had multiple artists/groups do vocals for the song, were they all charged for the track or were the cost for the track split, and then also billed for studio time to do the vocals?

BayouMotownMan
06-22-2011, 11:05 AM
There simply is no way of knowing what Motown singles and albums actually sold in the sixties as Gordy would not allow audits. Many felt he didn't want his artists to know what their sales were, but more likely, since things were done manually, rather quickly, there is a large amount of human error likely involved. Also add into the mix distributors who were notorious for compensating themselves under the table.

I have done extensive research on the Billboard and Cash Box record charts from that era. As I said before, peak position is relevant, but it's the weeks spent in the upper reaches of the charts that really suggest a record's sales power. For instance, in 1967, The Supremes had two No. 1 hits, Love Is Here and The Happening. The biggest selling songs of that year were Gladys' Grapevine, Stevie's I Was Made To Love Her, Smokey's I Second That Emotion and Martha's Jimmy Mack. None of these songs made it to No. 1, except Grapevine on the Cash Box chart.

Record sales were also seasonal. Spring time was the lowest period, with peaks in summer [[when kids were out of school) and Christmas time.

I can say with reasonable certainty that the following Supremes singles sold over a million copies in their original chart runs:

Where Did Our Love Go
Baby Love
Come See About Me
You Can't Hurry Love
You Keep Me Hangin' On
Love Child
I'm Gonna Make You Love Me
Someday We'll Be Together [[likely platinum)
Stoned Love [[likely platinum)

The other number one songs probably fell just shy of million sales. The other top ten songs sold anywhere between 500K to 800K.

For Ross:
Ain't No Mountain High Enough
Touch Me In The Morning
Theme From Mahogany
Love Hangover
Upside Down [[platinum plus)
I'm Coming Out
Endless Love [[platinum plus)

jobeterob
06-22-2011, 12:50 PM
Interestingly, some of Diana's most popular in concert songs.........Stop in the Name of Love and Why Do Fools Fall in Love.........are missing from that list.

By the time of Missing You, Billboard was printing sales lists, separate from airplay lists. And Missing You was lagging because of a lack of airplay..........because Diana was "old" by then. The sales are what pulled it up the chart.

I have always believed that the "real" story hasn't been told; but i don't think there is enough available information to tell it. I doubt Diana knows it or cares; I don't know if Berry even knows it.

BayouMotownMan
06-22-2011, 12:56 PM
Jobete, I overlooked Stop!. Based on the charts I am of the opinion that it topped the million mark. Symphony may have but probably fell just shy.

Love Is Here was probably their lowest selling No. 1. Sales estimate is 500K-700K. Reflections, though peaking at No. 2, probably approached the million mark as well.

The problem the Supremes had was their records soared up the charts, peaked then dropped like a safe. A record needs to stay in the top ten for a couple months to really accumulate sales. The biggest selling record for Motown in 1966 was neither Reach Out, I'll Be There nor You Can't Hurry Love, but Jimmy Ruffin's What Becomes Of The Broken Hearted. Motown's biggest 1965 seller was 4 Tops I Can't Help Myself.

florence
06-22-2011, 01:15 PM
There simply is no way of knowing what Motown singles and albums actually sold in the sixties as Gordy would not allow audits. Many felt he didn't want his artists to know what their sales were, but more likely, since things were done manually, rather quickly, there is a large amount of human error likely involved. Also add into the mix distributors who were notorious for compensating themselves under the table.

I have done extensive research on the Billboard and Cash Box record charts from that era. As I said before, peak position is relevant, but it's the weeks spent in the upper reaches of the charts that really suggest a record's sales power. For instance, in 1967, The Supremes had two No. 1 hits, Love Is Here and The Happening. The biggest selling songs of that year were Gladys' Grapevine, Stevie's I Was Made To Love Her, Smokey's I Second That Emotion and Martha's Jimmy Mack. None of these songs made it to No. 1, except Grapevine on the Cash Box chart.

Record sales were also seasonal. Spring time was the lowest period, with peaks in summer [[when kids were out of school) and Christmas time.

I can say with reasonable certainty that the following Supremes singles sold over a million copies in their original chart runs:

Where Did Our Love Go
Baby Love
Come See About Me
You Can't Hurry Love
You Keep Me Hangin' On
Love Child
I'm Gonna Make You Love Me
Someday We'll Be Together [[likely platinum)
Stoned Love [[likely platinum)

The other number one songs probably fell just shy of million sales. The other top ten songs sold anywhere between 500K to 800K.

For Ross:
Ain't No Mountain High Enough
Touch Me In The Morning
Theme From Mahogany
Love Hangover
Upside Down [[platinum plus)
I'm Coming Out
Endless Love [[platinum plus)

Interesting that you don't include Stop! In The Name Of Love - it was one of the four which was certified gold in 1997.

Was 1980 a year of high sales? I wouldn't have guessed I'm Coming Out made the 1m.

Oops - Was checking on something and you had posted on SITNOL in the meantime.

florence
06-22-2011, 01:20 PM
Interestingly, some of Diana's most popular in concert songs.........Stop in the Name of Love and Why Do Fools Fall in Love.........are missing from that list.

By the time of Missing You, Billboard was printing sales lists, separate from airplay lists. And Missing You was lagging because of a lack of airplay..........because Diana was "old" by then. The sales are what pulled it up the chart.

I have always believed that the "real" story hasn't been told; but i don't think there is enough available information to tell it. I doubt Diana knows it or cares; I don't know if Berry even knows it.

If any of the RCA singles such as Why had made the 1m it's almost certain RCA would have claimed the certification.

Was it in the early days of release that the airplay of Missing You was dragging it down? In the long run it only reached #13 in CashBox.

reese
06-22-2011, 01:40 PM
Were the recent RIAA certifications of singles by the Supremes [[and other Motown acts) based on the current status for a gold single [[500,000 sold) and platinum single [[1,000,000 sold), or for the sixties certifications for a gold single [[1,000,000 sold)?

theboyfromxtown
06-22-2011, 02:10 PM
I didn't even know it had changed!

I used to get confused about how many units were needed for each type of award.

luke
06-22-2011, 05:21 PM
I'm still confused. If Brenda and Martha could get accountings whats the mystery?

jobeterob
06-22-2011, 05:54 PM
I think the recent Supremes certifications were based on the new certification standards. But the RIAA uses "shipped" numbers; and as we now know, lots of games were played with Whitney Houston and Michael Jackson CDS that sold a lot less than were shipped.

Those recent certifications I believe are 10 years old and I wonder how Universal/Motown satisfied the RIAA requirements.

Luke, not sure what the question is but just because many of these artists got an accounting and get statements, doesn't mean they get any money. I believe Lesley Gore said she got statements for 20 years, but not a penny from 1969 til 1989.

The other thing is if the royalty rate is 5% [[and for most oldtime Motown artists, it is far less) and you sell even 10,000 CDS a year [[and most of them aren't doing that), if the sale price to the retailer is $30.00 a CD ~ 5% of that is only $1500.00; divide that between 5 Supremes appearing on a CD and that is $300.00.

And that is often going against an account they owe to Universal.

marv2
06-22-2011, 11:40 PM
I think the recent Supremes certifications were based on the new certification standards. But the RIAA uses "shipped" numbers; and as we now know, lots of games were played with Whitney Houston and Michael Jackson CDS that sold a lot less than were shipped.

Those recent certifications I believe are 10 years old and I wonder how Universal/Motown satisfied the RIAA requirements.

Luke, not sure what the question is but just because many of these artists got an accounting and get statements, doesn't mean they get any money. I believe Lesley Gore said she got statements for 20 years, but not a penny from 1969 til 1989.

The other thing is if the royalty rate is 5% [[and for most oldtime Motown artists, it is far less) and you sell even 10,000 CDS a year [[and most of them aren't doing that), if the sale price to the retailer is $30.00 a CD ~ 5% of that is only $1500.00; divide that between 5 Supremes appearing on a CD and that is $300.00.

And that is often going against an account they owe to Universal.

Martha Reeves after suing, now receives royalties. She still performs many concerts, which in turn help somewhat sell her old recordings.

The only Supremes that I am aware of that still receive royalties are Mary Wilson, Diane Ross, Jean Terrell and I believe Susaye Greene. There are not many CD's you are going to find that have all 4 of these women on it.

Anyway, the majority of the "Oldies" Market does not purchase a lot of CD's especially since many of the brick and mortar outlets are now gone. Most performers make their money from touring and live concerts. Leslie Gore needs to find the right attorney.

I'd like to know where this guy Taraborelli says he got his sales figures from! LOL!!!!

jobeterob
06-23-2011, 12:47 AM
Lesley gets royalties too.................they just backcharged her for sessions for 20 years! I believe Martha owed Motown money for years but Berry might have let her off the hook.

That is a good question about Randy. I think he might have decided the figures were too unreliable to use for the Definitive Bio.

Bayou Man............who was Randy's informant on the figures? I bet you have some idea. Maybe someone else might know ~ like Motown Fan, if he'd only come back.

florence
06-23-2011, 02:48 AM
Were the recent RIAA certifications of singles by the Supremes [[and other Motown acts) based on the current status for a gold single [[500,000 sold) and platinum single [[1,000,000 sold), or for the sixties certifications for a gold single [[1,000,000 sold)?

Good question and well spotted, reese.

I would have thought it logical that when the shipment requirements changed at the beginning of 1989 any records released before that would have had to fulfil the criteria for the date when they were released but having checked the RIAA the rule is that they only have to satisfy the conditions at the tome of certification!

I'm gobsmacked at that.

But it does throw a lot more confusion on the Supreme's certifications in 1997. It explains the Platinum Disc for I'm Gonna Make You Love Me but Baby Love in particular is a big mystery.

I know JRT who was generally on the low side with his sales claims said that BL did NOT sell 1m at the time but subsequently did and I don't think there's anyone who believes that it has not sold well over 1m in US alone.

But if they went to the trouble of claiming a Gold Disc for sales of 500k in 1997 why would they not have claimed a Platinum Disc for BL for sales of 1m.

Just another conundrum in the mystery which is Diana/Supreme's sales figures.

My understanding was that JRT got his info on Diana's sales for Call Her Miss Ross from an informant inside Motown.

I've sent Mr Taraborrelli a message via the contact facility on his website regarding why the sales were removed from the updated biography and if the original ones were correct so it will be interesting to see if any reply is received.

luke
06-23-2011, 11:52 AM
Do not underestimate baby boomers--they are a huge source of revenue for "oldies" music. The new Supremes cd seems to be doing quite well per Susaye--#90 pop downloads!!

marv2
06-23-2011, 03:35 PM
Do not underestimate baby boomers--they are a huge source of revenue for "oldies" music. The new Supremes cd seems to be doing quite well per Susaye--#90 pop downloads!!

I wouldn't do that [[underestimate baby boomers purchasing powers.) There are more baby boomers still alive than there are teenagers and twenty somethings. However, baby boomers were more accustomed to going into a record store and making purchases. I have to believe that only a fraction of them do much much downloading these days.

Jimi LaLumia
06-23-2011, 04:45 PM
I download off itunes for my DJ jobs; all the latest hits;
however,items for myself, such as "Let Yourself Go",I buy the actual
product online, usually from amazon.com;
can't wait for the Vol.2 Marvelettes 'Albums" set...

jobeterob
06-23-2011, 08:53 PM
Title Retail to Date Year to Date

14 Greatest Hits 11 16916
Aint No Mtn. High Enough 38 5138
All The Great Love Songs 49 49
All The Great Hits 44908 268132
All The Great Love Songs 66 5914
Anthology 971 73708
Anthology: Best of 25 51
Baby It's Me 5 346
Best Years of My Life - Single 5 9103
Bottom Line - Single 0 2
Boss 49 5650
Diana Extended 38 38
Diana's Duets 17 3559
Diana Ross 338 6148
Diana 432 7573
Diana/Boss 0 839
Diana Ross Live 894 78918
Diana Extended/The Remixes 1211 68931
Eaten Alive 79 79
Eaten Alive 33 1449
Endless Love 99 1726
Evening With 514 11663
Force Behind the Power 168 98695
Forever Diana 802 70159
Gone - Single 13 4805
Greatest Hits Live 136 136
Greatest Hits The RCA Years 3132 11247
Greatest Hits 212 83270
Hits of - Volume 1 22 275
Hits of 6 511
I Will Survive - Import - Single 3 1536
If You're Not Gonna Love Me Right - Single 0 40
Live At Caesar's Palace 144 7760
Love Hangover 89 - Single 0 62
One Woman - The Ultimate Collection 30622 196712
Red Hot Rhythm & Blues 10 685
Ross 0 242
Silk Electric 60 60
Silk Electric 11 1906
Surrender 0 312
Surrender/Ain't No Mtn. High Enough 1 469
Swept Away 8 8728
Take Me Higher - Single 45 37855
Take Me Higher 2783 101684
This House - Single 0 67
Touch Me In The Morning 164 4871
Touch Me In The Morning/Baby It's Me 0 606
Visions of Love - Video 0 0
Visions of Love - Video 6 69
Visions of Diana Ross - Video 94 3755
Voice of Love 33 33
Voice of the Heart -Single 62 6725
Waiting in the Wings - Single 0 903
Why Do Fools Fall In Love 5 5
When You Tell Me That You Love Me 0 16906
Why Do Fools Fall In Love 1168 7477
Workin Overtime 49 3238
You're Gonna Love It - Single 0 4137

Total Albums 89204 1,155,368

Total Singles 128 82141

Total Music Video 100 3824

florence
06-24-2011, 07:05 AM
14 Greatest Hits 11 16916
Aint No Mtn. High Enough 38 5138
All The Great Love Songs 49 49
All The Great Hits 44908 268132
All The Great Love Songs 66 5914
Anthology 971 73708
Anthology: Best of 25 51
Baby It's Me 5 346
Best Years of My Life - Single 5 9103
Bottom Line - Single 0 2
Boss 49 5650
Diana Extended 38 38
Diana's Duets 17 3559
Diana Ross 338 6148
Diana 432 7573
Diana/Boss 0 839
Diana Ross Live 894 78918
Diana Extended/The Remixes 1211 68931
Eaten Alive 79 79
Eaten Alive 33 1449
Endless Love 99 1726
Evening With 514 11663
Force Behind the Power 168 98695
Forever Diana 802 70159
Gone - Single 13 4805
Greatest Hits Live 136 136
Greatest Hits The RCA Years 3132 11247
Greatest Hits 212 83270
Hits of - Volume 1 22 275
Hits of 6 511
I Will Survive - Import - Single 3 1536
If You're Not Gonna Love Me Right - Single 0 40
Live At Caesar's Palace 144 7760
Love Hangover 89 - Single 0 62
One Woman - The Ultimate Collection 30622 196712
Red Hot Rhythm & Blues 10 685
Ross 0 242
Silk Electric 60 60
Silk Electric 11 1906
Surrender 0 312
Surrender/Ain't No Mtn. High Enough 1 469
Swept Away 8 8728
Take Me Higher - Single 45 37855
Take Me Higher 2783 101684
This House - Single 0 67
Touch Me In The Morning 164 4871
Touch Me In The Morning/Baby It's Me 0 606
Visions of Love - Video 0 0
Visions of Love - Video 6 69
Visions of Diana Ross - Video 94 3755
Voice of Love 33 33
Voice of the Heart -Single 62 6725
Waiting in the Wings - Single 0 903
Why Do Fools Fall In Love 5 5
When You Tell Me That You Love Me 0 16906
Why Do Fools Fall In Love 1168 7477
Workin Overtime 49 3238
You're Gonna Love It - Single 0 4137
Total Albums 89204 1,155,368
Total Singles 128 82141
Total Music Video 100 3824

Wee bit confused about this. Does it mean e.g. that the Force albumsold 168 copies in 1998 and has sold 98,695 copies to date on Soundscan?

When did Soundscan first begin?

florence
06-24-2011, 07:13 AM
Jobete, I overlooked Stop!. Based on the charts I am of the opinion that it topped the million mark. Symphony may have but probably fell just shy.

Love Is Here was probably their lowest selling No. 1. Sales estimate is 500K-700K. Reflections, though peaking at No. 2, probably approached the million mark as well.

The problem the Supremes had was their records soared up the charts, peaked then dropped like a safe. A record needs to stay in the top ten for a couple months to really accumulate sales. The biggest selling record for Motown in 1966 was neither Reach Out, I'll Be There nor You Can't Hurry Love, but Jimmy Ruffin's What Becomes Of The Broken Hearted. Motown's biggest 1965 seller was 4 Tops I Can't Help Myself.

I have a book The top 10 of Music published in the UK based on sales up to 1992 which includes the top 10 selling singles in US from 1952 until then - they claim these are based on sales as opposed to chart performance.

For 1965 the only Motown record in the top 10 is The Four Tops I Can't Help Myself at #4 which would agree that it was the top selling Motown single for the year however for 1966 again only one Motown disc at #8 but it is the Four Tops' Reach Out I'll Be There which would purport it to be a bigger seller than Jimmy Ruffin for that year.

I can't claim that they are right and you are wrong but it would be interesting to know where you got your info. that WBOTBH was Motown's biggest seller in 1966?

florence
06-24-2011, 09:17 AM
There simply is no way of knowing what Motown singles and albums actually sold in the sixties as Gordy would not allow audits. Many felt he didn't want his artists to know what their sales were, but more likely, since things were done manually, rather quickly, there is a large amount of human error likely involved. Also add into the mix distributors who were notorious for compensating themselves under the table.

I have done extensive research on the Billboard and Cash Box record charts from that era. As I said before, peak position is relevant, but it's the weeks spent in the upper reaches of the charts that really suggest a record's sales power. For instance, in 1967, The Supremes had two No. 1 hits, Love Is Here and The Happening. The biggest selling songs of that year were Gladys' Grapevine, Stevie's I Was Made To Love Her, Smokey's I Second That Emotion and Martha's Jimmy Mack. None of these songs made it to No. 1, except Grapevine on the Cash Box chart.

Record sales were also seasonal. Spring time was the lowest period, with peaks in summer [[when kids were out of school) and Christmas time.

I can say with reasonable certainty that the following Supremes singles sold over a million copies in their original chart runs:

Where Did Our Love Go
Baby Love
Come See About Me
You Can't Hurry Love
You Keep Me Hangin' On
Love Child
I'm Gonna Make You Love Me
Someday We'll Be Together [[likely platinum)
Stoned Love [[likely platinum)

The other number one songs probably fell just shy of million sales. The other top ten songs sold anywhere between 500K to 800K.

For Ross:
Ain't No Mountain High Enough
Touch Me In The Morning
Theme From Mahogany
Love Hangover
Upside Down [[platinum plus)
I'm Coming Out
Endless Love [[platinum plus)



Thinking about it further I'd be dubious about I'm Coming Out.

Diana's contract was coming up for renewal and the Company was doing all it could to keep her. There were all the rumours [[and it must be said they were never substantiated) about Motown using its "influence" to have It's My Turn in the top 10 and Diana's belief that Berry was lying to her when she was given the sales figure for the record in her royalties. However it's pertinent that the record only reached #18 on the Cashbox chart!

Motown joined the RIAA in the late 70s and they claimed certifications for The Boss and Diana albums plus Upside Down and Endless Love singles.

It is highly unlikely they would not have claimed ICO if it had reached the 1m figure.

jobeterob
06-24-2011, 10:11 PM
The Soundscan figures mean something............esp. that "Hits Collection" sell a lot.

But it would not surprise me if a lot of the rest of the guessing is completely wrong.

Missing You was pulled into the Top 10 by sales and held back by airplay.

stephanie
06-25-2011, 10:02 AM
Missing you got tons of video airplay on the video shows and it still does on VH1.

marv2
06-25-2011, 10:59 AM
Missing you got tons of video airplay on the video shows and it still does on VH1.

Yeah it was played a lot. That was her last hit somewhat right?

jobeterob
06-25-2011, 01:27 PM
Depends who's measuring and how..............if we measure in He's My Man terms, Take Me Higher went to #1.

The Rod Stewart Duet went Top 20.

When You Tell Me That You Love Me was #2 in the UK a couple years ago. I Will Survive and Not Over You Yet were Top 10 in the UK. Several other songs charted R & B and Easy Listening.

With an icon like Diane, it never ends

florence
05-26-2013, 08:01 AM
I always thought it odd that only a handful of Supremes singles and albums were submitted by Universal for certification in 1997 while there were a plethora for the Temptations in the next couple of years.

It seemed strange that the documentation would be available for one group but not the other leading me to believe that perhaps the Supremes' sales were not as big as we thought.

I've always heard it stated and believed that the girls' biggest seller was Someday We'll Be Together.

However, Berry Gordy in his autobigraphy says that their biggest selling single was Love Child - and you would think he would know - and it was NOT one of the certifications claimed.

So that makes things even more confusing.

revvy
05-26-2013, 11:23 AM
Getting charged for everything by a label still goes on to this day. Videos, promotion, recording costs, production fees, paying for beats...

What exactly are "beats"?

midnightman
05-26-2013, 12:24 PM
The Supremes are not alone in having the right figures tallied up for sales.

Marvin Gaye, I believe, had like twelve million-selling singles in Motown in the 1960s [[Pride & Joy, How Sweet, I'll Be Doggone, Ain't That Peculiar, It Takes Two, Ain't No Mountain High Enough, Precious Love, Ain't Nothing Like the Real Thing, You're All I Need to Get By, I Heard It Through the Grapevine, Too Busy Thinking About My Baby, That's the Way Love Is) but they would lie to Marvin and tell them some of them "only sold 900,000" or some crap like that despite the fact that he was indeed Motown's best selling male act [[Stevie had seven in the '60s if I recall).

They told the Supremes the same thing. And the Four Tops too. The Jackson 5 didn't know how much they had really sold until they left Motown.

The Temptations were the only ones who went back and saw how much sales their songs made and I think of all the Motown acts [[including the Miracles), their albums and singles got certified more than their other labelmates [[and Otis and Melvin's estate still gets paid from playings of the Motown classics; don't know about Eddie's, Paul's or David's estates or Dennis though).

The Supremes also had million-selling albums in the DMF era but they were never tallied either.

Diana and Mary left Motown with less monies than the ones they made when they were in Motown and had to find other ways to get a good income: Diana with real estate, being a producer on her records and her entertainment company and Mary touring everywhere and earning money acting in plays. Of course Cindy had left show business behind for a while to become a minister/nurse.

Motown also wasn't alone in short-feeding its artists as mentioned about Lesley Gore. The Shirelles were also screwed from their contract. Dionne Warwick, the Four Seasons, even the British acts like the Beatles and the Stones got ripped off from their contracts [[why you think the Stones still tour?).

But Randy possibly got their information from what some Motown execs claim were "official records" when they weren't.

midnightman
05-26-2013, 12:25 PM
I always thought it odd that only a handful of Supremes singles and albums were submitted by Universal for certification in 1997 while there were a plethora for the Temptations in the next couple of years.

It seemed strange that the documentation would be available for one group but not the other leading me to believe that perhaps the Supremes' sales were not as big as we thought.

I've always heard it stated and believed that the girls' biggest seller was Someday We'll Be Together.

However, Berry Gordy in his autobigraphy says that their biggest selling single was Love Child - and you would think he would know - and it was NOT one of the certifications claimed.

So that makes things even more confusing.

A part of me thinks Berry still mismanaged the business of how much sales his artists sold. I wonder what he thinks were Marvin's and Stevie's best-selling singles.

Glenpwood
05-26-2013, 06:52 PM
Buying beats is industry slang for buying a hot instrumental track or sample of a composition and writing new lyrics to it or changing what's been already written. Many new acts that labels decide to give a big push to will get beats and or tracks bought for them from a high profile producer or team to give the act the best chance of catching fire at radio.

TheMotownManiac
05-27-2013, 02:05 AM
Back in the day, it didn't take much to make a profit.Most of the costs associated with making a hit record were charged to the act and subtracted from royalty checks.That's why Brenda Holloway declined to have a second LP released - she could afford it! Also, it made it very tough for an act, like The Supremes to even know how much their checks should be. My guess is that The Supremes never received half of the royalties they were due under their contract. Yes, not even half.
question: how many albums needed to be sold to cover the recording costs? ie. at what sales point did an album make a profit? what about a single?

TheMotownManiac
05-27-2013, 02:58 AM
I always felt Randy T's sales figures were absurd. I've been told lots of reasons by "those in the know" - from making it all up in order to appear knowledgeable and official, to getting a secret list. Either way, he is intelligent and industry savvy enough that he had to have known they were bogus. I have every Hot 100 chart from The 60's, 70's and 80's and have done my own calculations based on chart position, longevity, success on other charts [[R&B, A/C etc) and what went gold, platinum etc on other labels and acts. For that reason, I believe Rob's numbers to either be accurate or pretty damn close. Randy T's numbers, if given to him, were probably the figures Motown used to base royalty payments on [[before charge backs, of course.) They ALL make sense to me [[for what that's worth ; ) but they do follow in line with what other acts were doing. Also, there was the major record store here in the 60;s & 70's that had an order card for every single. They had two cards for the early #1's as they kept re-ordering them sometimes 100's at a time. The Composer and that ilk never had any reorders. Someday and Love Child had tons. I also totally believe his album figures. I've also been told that when Miss Ross began asking questions about money [[at the prodding of Gene Simmons) he was aghast at the incomplete, crazy low figures not only for hit records like The Boss, diana and their singles of the day, but also for her live performances that, at sold out venues at top dollar, were barely profitable. Specifically, her commissions paid to Motown, ITM & Berry were percentages off the top - THEN tour expenses PLUS Motown "promotional" expenses were deducted - she got what was left after that. Simmons has reportedly made comments over the years to people how Ross was "robbed blind" by Motown and made more money touring in one year after leaving Motown than she did her entire solo career at Motown. Flo's settlement in '68 and the dissolution of DR&TS in '70 were pennies on the dollar of what they earned. It makes me sick that Mary is working for a living. Miss Ross had Gene Simmons to wake her up - but Mary had no one except Pedro and he doesn't seem too impressive to me.

TheMotownManiac
05-27-2013, 03:46 AM
if Randy believes Baby Love sold under a million - in October alone - he's lost it totally. He knows it sold millions. It was still being reported when it slipped from #1 because Come See About Me had siphoned off radio play, thus effecting the chart position - but the sales were through the roof - it was, without question, the biggest Motown record I can recall. It was everywhere and the word of mouth was amazing. Also, it's quite likely that Stoned Love, despite peaking at #7, did a million. Don't Mess With Bill went gold at #6 but both did well on R&B.
Good question and well spotted, reese.

I would have thought it logical that when the shipment requirements changed at the beginning of 1989 any records released before that would have had to fulfil the criteria for the date when they were released but having checked the RIAA the rule is that they only have to satisfy the conditions at the tome of certification!

I'm gobsmacked at that.

But it does throw a lot more confusion on the Supreme's certifications in 1997. It explains the Platinum Disc for I'm Gonna Make You Love Me but Baby Love in particular is a big mystery.

I know JRT who was generally on the low side with his sales claims said that BL did NOT sell 1m at the time but subsequently did and I don't think there's anyone who believes that it has not sold well over 1m in US alone.

But if they went to the trouble of claiming a Gold Disc for sales of 500k in 1997 why would they not have claimed a Platinum Disc for BL for sales of 1m.

Just another conundrum in the mystery which is Diana/Supreme's sales figures.

My understanding was that JRT got his info on Diana's sales for Call Her Miss Ross from an informant inside Motown.

I've sent Mr Taraborrelli a message via the contact facility on his website regarding why the sales were removed from the updated biography and if the original ones were correct so it will be interesting to see if any reply is received.

jobeterob
05-27-2013, 12:56 PM
The fact that Randy deleted almost all of his Call Her Miss Ross sales information in the updated, more definitive Biography he wrote, indicated to me that he was no longer confident in his figures either.

captainjames
05-27-2013, 04:26 PM
There is only one song I would question that did not sell over a million by Diana, Mary and Florence and that would be "In And Out Love". The Supemes were at the TOP of their game and someone, somehow and someplace was measuring that against The Beatles.

midnightman
05-27-2013, 07:19 PM
The fact that Randy deleted almost all of his Call Her Miss Ross sales information in the updated, more definitive Biography he wrote, indicated to me that he was no longer confident in his figures either.

Yeah he probably knew he was lied to because he knew the Supremes sold more.

midnightman
05-27-2013, 07:21 PM
I always felt Randy T's sales figures were absurd. I've been told lots of reasons by "those in the know" - from making it all up in order to appear knowledgeable and official, to getting a secret list. Either way, he is intelligent and industry savvy enough that he had to have known they were bogus. I have every Hot 100 chart from The 60's, 70's and 80's and have done my own calculations based on chart position, longevity, success on other charts [[R&B, A/C etc) and what went gold, platinum etc on other labels and acts. For that reason, I believe Rob's numbers to either be accurate or pretty damn close. Randy T's numbers, if given to him, were probably the figures Motown used to base royalty payments on [[before charge backs, of course.) They ALL make sense to me [[for what that's worth ; ) but they do follow in line with what other acts were doing. Also, there was the major record store here in the 60;s & 70's that had an order card for every single. They had two cards for the early #1's as they kept re-ordering them sometimes 100's at a time. The Composer and that ilk never had any reorders. Someday and Love Child had tons. I also totally believe his album figures. I've also been told that when Miss Ross began asking questions about money [[at the prodding of Gene Simmons) he was aghast at the incomplete, crazy low figures not only for hit records like The Boss, diana and their singles of the day, but also for her live performances that, at sold out venues at top dollar, were barely profitable. Specifically, her commissions paid to Motown, ITM & Berry were percentages off the top - THEN tour expenses PLUS Motown "promotional" expenses were deducted - she got what was left after that. Simmons has reportedly made comments over the years to people how Ross was "robbed blind" by Motown and made more money touring in one year after leaving Motown than she did her entire solo career at Motown. Flo's settlement in '68 and the dissolution of DR&TS in '70 were pennies on the dollar of what they earned. It makes me sick that Mary is working for a living. Miss Ross had Gene Simmons to wake her up - but Mary had no one except Pedro and he doesn't seem too impressive to me.

I didn't know Gene finally told Diana to check up on her business...but I can understand because in this sense, he looked out for her. Unfortunately the same couldn't have been said of Mary and Flo and the other Motown acts.

captainjames
05-28-2013, 12:53 AM
Yeah Diana finally told Berry that this was BUSINESS !!!!! and got herself in the right position to get TOP dollar. It is really sad that Mary, Flo and Cindy did not do the same thing. Mary was almost there there but grew tired and gave in.

midnightman
05-28-2013, 01:23 PM
Yeah Diana finally told Berry that this was BUSINESS !!!!! and got herself in the right position to get TOP dollar. It is really sad that Mary, Flo and Cindy did not do the same thing. Mary was almost there there but grew tired and gave in.

Yeah. And that really is the difference between Diana and the others. It's really sad Mary, Flo and Cindy didn't do what she did. Mary shouldn't have had to give up. smh

jobeterob
05-28-2013, 02:36 PM
Ultimately, that is what causes some of the bad feeling against Berry and somewhat Diana ~ one way or the other, they were successful and there is a price for that, especially when some of the people that came up with you have struggled for years and years and never really made it.

And you can get knocked further when your colleagues need help. You give it and if there is publicity ~ you are criticized. If you don't give it, despite that fact you have had little to do with your colleagues for years, you are criticized.

It is a lose/lose situation.

midnightman
05-28-2013, 04:01 PM
Ultimately, that is what causes some of the bad feeling against Berry and somewhat Diana ~ they one way or the other, they were successful and there is a price for that, especially when some of the people that came up with you have struggled for years and years and never really made it.

And you can get knocked further when your colleagues need help. You give it and if there is publicity ~ you are criticized. If you don't give it, despite that fact you have had little to do with your colleagues for years, you are criticized.

It is a lose/lose situation.

You ain't lying there.

stingbeelee
05-28-2013, 07:09 PM
I believe if you give from your heart, that it is a win/win situation. For most of the Motown stars, I am reasonably sure that they have a "so what" attitute when it comes to people criticizing them about giving anything. Berry, Diana, Mary and others have given to people in "secret" and I'm sure that most of it was heartfelt, although in some circumstances they may have been weary of giving to some. I am sure most of the people on this forum have given to others, and considered it a win/win situation. People will criticize you over anything, and there is really nothing you can do about it but brush it off your shoulder and move on. I am in agreement with Jobeterob that sure you are criticized if you give or not, and you will get knocked down, but I think the attitute is "so what".

florence
07-12-2013, 08:34 AM
These are from stingbeelee's post above:


by motown on March 20th, 2009


They were huge sellers all over the world. I do know some of the individual albums sales figures for U.S. sales. The figures were rounded to the nearest thousand.

Where Did Our Love Go- 3,225,000
A Bit of Liverpool- 839,000
Supremes At The Copa- 1,316,000
More Hits By....- 1,642,000
I Hear A Symphony- 1,894,000
Supremes A' Go-Go- 3,469,000
Supremes Sing H-D-H- 1,518,000
Greatest Hits 5,975,000
Reflections 724,000
Funny Girl 217,000
Love Child 683,000
TCB 1,426,000
Join The Temps 1,397,000
We Remember Sam Cooke 306,000
Cream Of The Crop 566,000
Let The Sunshine In 602,000
Together 492,000
Greatest Vol 3 1,216,000
Rogers & Hart 486,000
Country, Western & Pop 178,000
Live At Talk Of Town 382,000
Meet The Supremes 146,000
Anthology 982,000
25th Anniversary 429,000

These aren't all albums ever released, only ones I was told U.S. sales figures for

Selected U.S. Singles Sales

Where Did Our Love Go 2,720,000
Baby Love 3,496,000
Come See About Me 1,870,000
Stop! In The Name 2,154,000
Back In My Arms 1,029,000
Nothing But Heartaches 588,000
I Hear A Symphony 1,604,000
My World Is Empty 1,371,000
Love Is Like An Itch 632,000
You Can't Hurry Love 2,424,000
You Keep Me Hangin' 1,758,000
Love Is Here And Now 949,000
The Happening 897,000
Refelections 1,277,000
In And Out Of Love 762,000
Forever Came Today 298,000
Some Things You Never 317,000
Love Child 2,899,000
I'm Gonna Make You lo 1,557,000
I'm Livin In Shame 513,000
The Composer 204,000
I'll Try Something New 273,000
Someday We'll Be... 3,077,000



Read more: Does anyone know how many total records the Supremes sold world-wide? | Answerbag http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/77079#ixzz0yyllLnzA


Without going into the veracity of these sales this list crops up periodically.

Does anyone know what the original source of these figures is?

jobeterob
07-12-2013, 06:30 PM
No idea.

There are no truly reliable figures, perhaps not even generally accurate figures in Berry Gordy's head.