Syreeta Wright: would she have been good for the Supremes?

[Ngroove]

Note: This is NOT a Supremes bashing thread, nor should be treated as so; as I personally myself, find atleast their music of highest infectious, elegant quality, most deserving of the pop / R&B confections they became.

OK, according to Mary Wilson's "Dreamgirls", the night after the "Someday We'll Be Together / Farewell" tour had their final curtain, Berry Gordy called her up, and told her out of the blue, despite Jean Terrell was already chosen by the girls, and probably "Up The Ladder, Through The Roof" was already recorded, that Syreeta Wright will be Diana Ross' replacement.

Sadly, that call did not go well, and essentially, Berry lost interest in the group when Mary refused, but "what if?"

[Ngroove]

Come on, such a decision on his part has got to be just a strategic move, as the pairing up of the then-still unknown Tammi Montgomery, with an established superstar, Marvin Gaye. Perhaps, he seen potential in the then-Rita Wright, as she was the voice of " I Can't Give Back the Love I Feel For You" as well as the background of Martha Reeves & the Vandellas' " I Can't Dance To That Music You're Playing".

Maybe, he felt that such a move, could extend the Supremes' career, while benefitting Syreeta's as well. Maybe she could've had more major hits, as well as pop hits, under her name. Instead, perhaps her albums [[Syreeta, Stevie Wonder Presents.., One To One, Syreeta) may have became cult favorites at the highest, but her only true hit was a duet, with Billy Preston, "With You, I'm Born Again". In my book, she's definitely underratedly unsung.

But, at the same time, while she's great at her own songs, her voice surely is not a Diana Ross, Jean Terrell, or Scherrie Payne either. But stiil, "what if?"

[ralpht]

Good question. I always thought Syreeta would have been the perfect replacement for Diana. She sounded very much like Diana and, in my opinion, this is what held her back at Motown.

[captainjames]

I agree with Ralpht,
Syreeta would have been perfect and I have always felt a good fit for the group. If Berry Gordy was going to back them then I would have jumped to it. Jean could have been used as a solo artist and would have made it.

[BayouMotownMan]

We have talked about this topic many many times.

While I agree Syreeta had the "sound" I don't think she had the glamour look needed for the Supremes. As a singer, she was far superior to Diana and I think even to Jean.

Ralph was around, so he probably knows what most people told me at Motown; After Diana Ross left, Gordy had less and less interest in the Supremes. In fact, after Lady Sings started filming, he had little interest in practically any of the music artists.

I'll stick with my opinion that it mattered not who replaced Diana Ross. They were a ship destined to sink.

[jobeterob]

Jean was pretty darn good for a while considering who she had to replace. And I think Syreeta would have been good as well.

But after about 1972, when the management wasn't working, the members started changing nearly monthly, the hits stopped, times and musical tastes changed and moved away from the glamourous girl group look ~ Rick's probably right; they were a ship destined to sink.

It is an interesting question whether Syreeta could have replaced Jean and if they'd kept the sound a more "safe" Supreme type sound ~ whether then, things would have been different, with a different manager and better guidance.

The Temptations managed over the years to maintain the brand so the Supremes brand should have been maintainable in much the same manner.

But, true, we've done this discussion a few times already. Would be interesting to find the threads and see what, if any conclusion, we reached or it it became another fight.

[BayouMotownMan]

Actually, the Temptations run of hits dried up not too long after the Supremes. The Supremes had unqualified hits up until 1971 or early 1972 [[Floy Joy). The Temptations last major hits was Masterpiece in early 1973. After that their sales began slipping. They have enjoyed moderate success off and on over the years but never reclaimed their 60s fame. They did outlast the Supremes for sure, and that could be because they utilized several lead singers in their tenure.

[ralpht]

What I remember, that makes me think the way I do, was listening to much of what was being recorded on Syreeta and thinking she would be hurt by sounding too much like Diana.

Bayou,
I'm not sure about the glamor image. Syreeta was a real looker that could have pulled it off.

[bradsupremes]

I've thought about this and while Syreeta was an great singer and surely would have slipped into Diana's shoes easily and been a great fit, I don't think continuing with the "Diana" sound would have been the best choice for the group. The group needed to re-invent themselves; they needed something fresh. The selection of Jean was the perfect choice. She had a voice that was soulful, yet commercial. She was different from Diana, but had similar qualities that didn't alienate fans.

If Syreeta was brought in, I don't think she would have added anything different. Producers and writers would have just gone along with what they were doing with Diana. Plus I'm not completely sure that Syreeta would want to join a group. If you had a couple of singles out already in your own name, would you want to join something where your name wouldn't appear on a marquee or on a single? Most singers dream of being a solo artist, but some start out in a group and wait to get their shot on their own [[like Diana). Others start out on their own [[Syreeta) and I can't really seen them wanting to step back into something where their name isn't out there. The same can be said about Tammi Terrell joining the Supremes if she wasn't ill. Would Tammi want to join a group where her name wouldn't be out there when she has already had hits with her own name? People may harp on Mary for telling off Berry regarding Syreeta joining the group, but look at this way: If you're the last original member of your group left, don't you think you should have a say in the direction your group is going and who you are going to sing with? Why would you want to be in a group with someone you didn't get along with to being with? [[According to Cindy, Mary and her didn't get along that well with Syreeta in those early days.) Mary should have had final approval over who was joining the group. Besides it's not like Berry would have really cared about the group if Syreeta had joined. His sights were on Diana and every single thing she did in her career. The Supremes without Diana no longer mattered to him.

[ralpht]

Interesting points, Brad.

[RossHolloway]

Well I dont think ti was so much the Supreme's not mattering to him specifically, but rather Berry wanted to get into movies, plain and simple. I believe a quote of his was something along the lines of - we had done all there was to do in the music field. I think Berry just needed new challenges, and movies provided that for him.

[motony]

I don't ever remember Mr. Gordy having said that he wanted Syreeta in the Supremes.He told Mary Wilson over the phone that early morning after the final show that he did not like Jean & didn't want her in.Did she make an offhanded remark to him that pissed him off [[or pissed Diana off) OR did he just say that so he could wash his hands of the group, as he KNEW his hands would be full with Diana?I guess we'll never know.By the time Diana left the Supremes, Tammi Terrell was a rising star & I could not see her joining the group.

[thisoldheart]

i always thought tammi terrell would have been an obvious choice if she had lived, but she was so popular with marvin gaye, no doubt she would have gone straight solo. syreeta is obvious, too. i am not reminded in the least of her voice sounding too similar to diana ross. and, who is saying syreeta wasn't attractive enough to fit into the supreme glam factory?! she sure would have been interesting, to say the least. but, i fear that had gordy not chosen jean terrell we might never have heard her. now, that would have been tragic!

[BayouMotownMan]

Oh I don't dispute that Syreeta was an attractive woman Ralph, but in most of the photos I've seen of her she was true to her heritage and wore the clothing that expressed that. Wigs and beaded gowns just wasn't her thing. She did it sometimes but when she sang with Stevie she was down to earth.

In terms of sounding like Diana Ross, I just don't hear it. I would put Syreeta far above Diana Ross in terms of range, vocal quality and tone. She may have sang in higher keys like Diana, but Syreeta Wright was a singer's singer; she likely could have done opera. I would say Jean and Syreeta sounded more alike than Diana and Syreeta did.

I guess my ears are wierd. When I first heard I Can't Dance To That Music, it didn't occur to me that the background singer sounded like Diana Ross. I just wondered which Vandella was wailing like that? Roz Ashford is another underrated singer, but she never sounded like that before.

As far as Tammi Terrell, God bless her, I just don't ever see her as a member of the Supremes. She was already well known for her solo and duet work with Marvin. She too just didn't fit the image.

I agree with the earlier assessment that Jean was the best choice. She was rather tall, didn't have a good figure but had a pretty face, a mega-watt smile like Diana [[with prettier teeth) and what a voice. Jean, Mary and Cindy remain my favorite grouping of Supremes

[ralpht]

Bayou,
Gotta agree with you on the superiority of Syreetas vocal range. She had the chops.

[BayouMotownMan]

I'll never understand why Syreeta didn't have more hit records. So few know about her and she was an incredible vocalist

[ralpht]

Yeah, she is one of those music biz "what if" stories. A real shame.

[BayouMotownMan]

I really thought after Ross left the company, and then Teena Marie, that Motown would have gotten behind Syreeta. But they didn't. The Set My Love In Motion lp should have put her over. The Jermaine Jackson followup just wasn't commercial at all, even though she sounded great on it.

[ralpht]

I'm not sure who was calling the shots on her in the Creative Division. Seems they messed up.

[Ngroove]

Thank you all, in making this a most productive discussion thus far.

Yeah, I guess, what happened, happened, as the Supremes would still rack up a handful more of hits [[although one of my personal favorites from them, post-Ross, ain’t one of them, “Touch”).

And Syreeta, man, even when backed up by Stevie Wonder, she’s just left relatively unnoticed. And yes, absolutely loved her voice, notably on such as “Spinnin’ and Spinnin’”, “I’m Goin’ Left”, “Your Kiss Is Sweet”, “He’s Gone”, “ Quick Slick”-the latter, my opinion, should had easily given Carl Carlton’s “She’s A Bad Mamma Jamma” a run for its money around its time…*sigh* shame…

But yes, maybe under the right guidance, maybe they could had been great, but then again, perhaps Mary and Cindy sensed they wouldn’t mesh so well, when they seem to be just starting to develop a new kinship, with Jean.

[loveblind]

Jean had a great voice, very commercial, as did Syreeta, but Syreeta had more drive . She was also a songwriter collaborating on hits like "If You Really Love Me', "It's a shame" and "Signed Sealed & Delivered". I do believe she would have dedicated her self more to the Supremes unit as she was a Motown trooper. Very dedicated to the company and Mr. Gordy. Jean on the other hand did not have that same devotion or "show business Drive" one needs to stay in this business. Motown women like Mary Wilson, Diana Ross and Martha Reeves had drive. Syreeta stayed busy until her untimely death in 2004.

[ivyfield]

Sadly, that call did not go well, and essentially, Berry lost interest in the group when Mary refused, but "what if?"
I have a very nice experience that this has reminded me of. But first, to set the record straight, Mary and Cindy didn't pick Jean, it was Berry. Anyway, I digress. Mid 80's, the UK 'Legends of Motorcity' tour. This happened very quickly but it's something I'll never forget. Backstage after the very first show of the tour which kicked off at the Fairfield Halls, Croydon. All the acts were there - Marv Johnson, The Elgins, Carolyn Crawford, Kim Weston, The Supremes' Jean, Scherrie & Lynda and Syreeta. Everyone was in high spirits as the first show had gone well. People were sipping wine and chatting. I was standing with J/S/L and Syreeta came over and said 'You all sounded so great' I just LOVE 'Up The Ladder to the Roof' it's a great song' then she stood there and sang the phrase 'Up the ladder to the roof, where we can see heaven much better...' and she sounded fabulous. I stood there thinking 'WOW! - that's what the Supremes could have sounded like' and during the tour I managed to chat a little with Syreeta as I attended several of the shows. She was a really nice, bubbly, happy lady who [[I think) didn't know just how great a talent she was. She's another gifted person who Motown let slip through the net. She should have been much bigger - especially when you realise what a great writer she was too. I miss her. Just glad I had the chance to meet her. I would like to add tho - I don't think Syreeta would have stayed with the Supremes had she replaced Ross because her talents extended to writing and though she could have penned some great stuff for the group, I think she was better off staying solo. Just sayin'...
4668

[bradsupremes]

I don't know how true this is, but I remember hearing a rumor that Syreeta did record "Up The Ladder To The Roof," however it is in the vaults. I forgot where I heard it, but it would certainly be something amazing to hear if it were true.

I always thought that there were several songs on Stevie Wonder Presents Syreeta that sounded like they were originally written and intended for Jean & the Supremes to record. Stevie had wrote and recorded "Bad Weather," "Soft Days," and "I'll Wait A Lifetime" for the girls. The later two remaining unreleased. I wouldn't be surprised if Stevie had more songs written for the group that were intended for an album had "Bad Weather" been a hit. In fact, I thought the Supremes recording an album with Stevie Wonder was the plan. Take a listen to "Come And Get This Stuff," "Universal Sound Of The World," and "I'm Goin' Left." You can easily hear Jean, Mary and Lynda singing these songs especially "Come And Get This Stuff." That one has a real group sound to it.

[ivyfield]

I wonder [[no pun intended) what happened to break up Stevie & Syreeta. They seemed so matched. Guess we'll never know. I'll ask George Soloman if he's come across a master of Syreeta recording 'Up the Ladder'. Very interesting - never heard about that before.

[1382hitsville]

Syreeta did record a [[demo?) version of Love Child.

[Constantin]

Her 1980 and 1981 albums were excellent.

[franjoy56]

the issue with syretta in the group was that you had another familiar name that would have eventually been placed in front of the group Syretta would not have settled for being in the Supremes without star billing she was a force not just merely a singer to be inserted in a group setting and Mary and Cindy saw this long before Berry pitched the idea to her, furthermore Jean Mary and Cindy had already recorded several tracks from the Right On album. . Mary wanted a group sound not something that took place with Diana Ross and The Supremes later years.

[jillfoster]

I'll never understand why Syreeta didn't have more hit records. So few know about her and she was an incredible vocalist


Because her tone quality is annoying. She was nasal and whiny, and sounded for all the world like a little girl on the playground teasing someone, "Nah nah nah na nah nah...." Jean blew all other Supremes out of the water, vocally... with Mary coming in second, because of her uniqueness and smooth quality. I'm just dissapointed as hell since I learned that Leola Jiles was set to replace Jean, but it fell through. Leola would have been SO much better than Scherrie Payne for the group. Instead, we got the Ethel Merman of soul music.

[marv2]

Because her tone quality is annoying. She was nasal and whiny, and sounded for all the world like a little girl on the playground teasing someone, "Nah nah nah na nah nah...." Jean blew all other Supremes out of the water, vocally... with Mary coming in second, because of her uniqueness and smooth quality. I'm just dissapointed as hell since I learned that Leola Jiles was set to replace Jean, but it fell through. Leola would have been SO much better than Scherrie Payne for the group. Instead, we got the Ethel Merman of soul music.

You're good! I mean you're real good! hehehehhehehe..........

[jobeterob]

I can understand the point JillFoster makes about Syreeta's voice; it could be somewhat nasally and a little shrill/whiny at time without being very distinctive; and there are a million undistinctive high and low voices out there ~ and they generally are unsuccessful.

But she is none of that on a song like With You I'm Born Again.

I think the Supremes did well with Jean ~ as well as you could expect; but as 1972 came and went, they did not suecessfully reinvent themselves. I still think what really did them in was the dead time between 1972 and 1975 ~ and then they were way too late in the game to be a force again.

[marv2]

Random thought:

Syreeta Wright had been with Motown a little over 10 years by the time she got a "hit" along with Billy Prestion with "With You I'm Born Again" in 1979.

Jean Terrell scored a "hit" for Motown with her very first release along with Mary Wilson and Cindy Birdsong, The Supremes with "Up the Ladder to the Roof" in 1970.

[marybrewster]

I can't imagine anyone but Jean Terrell replacing Diana Ross in the Supremes. For a group that constantly "evolved"; choosing someone similar to Diana would have been a mistake. At least I think so.

A couple of questions:

In late 1969, when Mary and Cindy were still touring with Diana, it's said that they also were playing "double duty"; working with Jean and recording for their "debut". Was Diana doing the same thing? Working out all of the details of her going solo?

Was Berry's "I don't want Jean in the group, I was Syreeta" just a ploy to buy Diana more time? It seems like with the couple of months of recording and rehearsing Jean, Mary and Cindy would have to start from scratch, losing precious time and momentum.

Ultimately though, didn't Jean do to the group what Mary and Cindy were afraid of; use the Supremes as a launching pad for a solo career? Granted, Jean's solo didn't come out until 5 or so years after she left the group, but don't you think it was anticipated that she would stay longer? Syreeta wasn't wanted, if she was only going to stay with the Supremes for a short time; the exact thing Jean ended up doing.

[bradsupremes]

Mary Brewster,

Yes, Diana was beginning to record and prepare for her solo career in late 1969. I believe she was working with Bones Howe during this time with plans of doing an album on her, but Berry decided it was best to keep her with the classic Motown sound that she had be accustomed to so she began work with Ashford & Simpson. I know of one track that was originally intended for the Supremes as a possible follow-up single for "Someday We'll Be Together," but was later reassigned to Diana Ross and that was intended for her first solo single, yet was pulled for "Reach Out And Touch [[Somebody's Hand)" instead. The track I'm speaking about is "These Things Will Keep Me Loving You."

I think Jean was willing to stay with the group if they switched labels and changed their name. I think Jean was more unhappy with Motown and how things were being run and not the whole aspect of being apart of a group. I think if both Jean and Lynda convinced Mary to let go of the Supremes' name and sign with ABC Dunhill, I'm pretty sure she would have stayed with group as they started to explore something completely different as a group. However there was tension and friction within the group by this time. Things were just not working by 1973 and I tend to believe it was the low point of the Supremes career. They seemed to bounce back and transform into a different group when Scherrie and Cindy and later Susaye joined. As for the Jean-Mary-Lynda grouping, I don't think they were recording as much and if they were most of it still sits in the vaults. The material that was being released wasn't that great. The Jimmy Webb album would have been an incredible album, but it was just downright bad. I'm disappointed Jimmy Webb didn't bring better songs to the table. He had dozens of amazing songs that they could have recorded, but instead he gave them these crappy leftovers. The Stevie Wonder album that was planned could have done "wonders" for the group [[no pun intended), but Motown was not pushing "Bad Weather" and that did not help to get the project green-lighted. It's a shame because several songs on Stevie Wonder Presents Syreeta were most likely written for the Supremes and they are top notch.

[blueskies]

Mary Brewster,

Yes, Diana was beginning to record and prepare for her solo career in late 1969. I believe she was working with Bones Howe during this time with plans of doing an album on her, but Berry decided it was best to keep her with the classic Motown sound that she had be accustomed to so she began work with Ashford & Simpson. I know of one track that was originally intended for the Supremes as a possible follow-up single for "Someday We'll Be Together," but was later reassigned to Diana Ross and that was intended for her first solo single, yet was pulled for "Reach Out And Touch [[Somebody's Hand)" instead. The track I'm speaking about is "These Things Will Keep Me Loving You."

I think Jean was willing to stay with the group if they switched labels and changed their name. I think Jean was more unhappy with Motown and how things were being run and not the whole aspect of being apart of a group. I think if both Jean and Lynda convinced Mary to let go of the Supremes' name and sign with ABC Dunhill, I'm pretty sure she would have stayed with group as they started to explore something completely different as a group. However there was tension and friction within the group by this time. Things were just not working by 1973 and I tend to believe it was the low point of the Supremes career. They seemed to bounce back and transform into a different group when Scherrie and Cindy and later Susaye joined. As for the Jean-Mary-Lynda grouping, I don't think they were recording as much and if they were most of it still sits in the vaults. The material that was being released wasn't that great. The Jimmy Webb album would have been an incredible album, but it was just downright bad. I'm disappointed Jimmy Webb didn't bring better songs to the table. He had dozens of amazing songs that they could have recorded, but instead he gave them these crappy leftovers. The Stevie Wonder album that was planned could have done "wonders" for the group [[no pun intended), but Motown was not pushing "Bad Weather" and that did not help to get the project green-lighted. It's a shame because several songs on Stevie Wonder Presents Syreeta were most likely written for the Supremes and they are top notch.

That's interesting that Jean might have stayed with the group if they changed the name of the group and changed labels. Another one of those 'what if's'.....what would the name have been, what direction would they have gone in, would they continue to sing the Supremes hits if they had another name.....the list goes on. Interesting thought.

[144man]

Leola would have been SO much better than Scherrie Payne for the group. Instead, we got the Ethel Merman of soul music.

I don't get the reference. Please explain.

[robbert]

Not being an Ameican, I don't know Ethel Merman that well. Why would jillfoster compare Scherrie Payne with her?

[robbert]

I have spent a few days with Syreeta in Amsterdam in 1974 [[after the release of her Stevie Wonder Presents... album and her UK and European success with Your Kiss Is Sweet and Spinning and Spinning). She was in The Netherlands to promote the album and her current 45. By the way, I'm Going Left was a rouser in the Dutch discotheques.
I had to accompany her to a few journalists who wanted to talk to her and to a photo shoot in the studio of photographer Claude Van Heije. I picked her up from her Amsterdam Pulitzer hotel with a limo [[!). Yes, EMI and Tamla-Motown did the best they could, because we believed in her as an upcoming and promising artist.
Unfortunately she appeared not to be in a very good mood. During the drive to Claude's studio she began muttering that a photo shoot and a press conference on one day was too much of a strain for her. After that, in the studio she litterally spent hours to do her wardrobe and make up. During the shoot she still kept up her grumpy attitude. At a certain point I got a bit p*ssed off and told her diplomatically she better quit the diva behaviour. Somehow, that worked. She was like wax in our hands the next two days.
This was, of course, just a split second in her life and career. And in my life & career, for that matter, hahaha. But it told me something about her character as an artist.

[rod_rick]

I don't think it mattered to Jean if she was solo or with a group. In an artcle from Right On magazine and Jet magazine dated May 20, 1976, Jean was rumored to be starting a group with Florence Ballard and Cindy Birdsong. She ultimately ended up in the Former Ladies Of Supremes in the 80's and 90's, so I don't think Jean was really looking for a solo career or to use the Supremes as launching pad to a solo career. Just my opinion.

[bradsupremes]

In an artcle from Right On magazine and Jet magazine dated May 20, 1976, Jean was rumored to be starting a group with Florence Ballard and Cindy Birdsong.

Well that wouldn't have worked since Florence was dead.

[P-Shark: The Revenge]

Syreeta had a beautiful voice. Especially on Gary Bartz's "Music Is My Sanctuary"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfiEkI3Z0ig&feature=related

[rod_rick]

Well that wouldn't have worked since Florence was dead.

Brad, I was just giving the date of the magazine in case anyone wanted to look it up. Most know that Florence passed on in February of 1976. But keep in mind, alot of those magazine have future dates cor the current information. And I also stated that it was rumor. I think it may have been an idea or a disscussion before Florence passed on. I just put that information out because I don't think Jean was using the Supremes to launch a solo career.

[milven]

.. Leola would have been SO much better than Scherrie Payne for the group. Instead, we got the Ethel Merman of soul music.


I don't get the reference. Please explain.

Ethel Merman was probably the First Lady of Broadway Musical Theatre at a time when the theaters were unmiked and she had to sing strongly to be heard by the audience in the last row of the balcony of the accoustic theater. So she sang loudly and over the top. When she was on TV and in movies, she did not adjust her performance and continued to belt out her songs to the “last row in the balcony” I guess Jill was saying the Sherrie belts out her songs too.
Here is Ethel at about age 70 in one of her final performances. She still gets a standing ovation from the audience.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s62MrU8mHx4

[marv2]

Brad, I was just giving the date of the magazine in case anyone wanted to look it up. Most know that Florence passed on in February of 1976. But keep in mind, alot of those magazine have future dates cor the current information. And I also stated that it was rumor. I think it may have been an idea or a disscussion before Florence passed on. I just put that information out because I don't think Jean was using the Supremes to launch a solo career.

Rod_rick, the story was carried in the press several times throughout 1975 once Florence resurfaced nationally with the story of her current plight. Right On magazine also made mention of a possible grouping of Jean, Florence Ballard & Cindy Birdsong. What Jet was simply doing was summarizing the most current events in Florence's life up until her death. So you didn't say or post anything wrong. We've had a subscription to Jet Magazine since the early 1960's!

[jillfoster]

I don't get the reference. Please explain.

Quite simple. Both women sing all their songs as loud as they possibly can, any vocal from them comes across as a vocal exercise, and not an emotional expression. There is only unadulterated volume, devoid of sensitivity, feeling, and nuance. The sad part is, Scherrie Payne is CAPABLE of much better, as you can hear on "Horse and Rider", which is total brilliance. But it was only that way because Eddie MADE her sing it like that, and back the hell off.

[franjoy56]

bradsupremes gave the best example of what went wrong with the 1973-Supremes, the failure of "Bad Weather" caused by the neglected promotion of Motown caused Jean to turn on Motown, hell she was doing all the lead tracks and was probably tired of breaking her neck for pittance. Had "Bad Weather" became a hit, and the Stevie Wonder projected album followed with better results than the Jimmy Webb project, I beleive Jean would have continued with the Supremes at Motown. I heard "Bad Weather" on Wnew radio an easy listening station and then couldn't find the record in the stores, I finally got a copy in a second hand variety store in brooklyn, even the fabulous performane on Soul Train in the spring of 73 couldn't save its #87 chart showing. Motown shamelessly threw that one away. No wonder Jean bolted.

[144man]

Quite simple. Both women sing all their songs as loud as they possibly can, any vocal from them comes across as a vocal exercise, and not an emotional expression. There is only unadulterated volume, devoid of sensitivity, feeling, and nuance. The sad part is, Scherrie Payne is CAPABLE of much better, as you can hear on "Horse and Rider", which is total brilliance. But it was only that way because Eddie MADE her sing it like that, and back the hell off.

I've never felt that Scherrie Payne sang rather than shouted. It could be that you hear an added depth to "Horse and Rider" because Scherrie self-penned it.

With Jean's leads, I think she is technically brilliant and I love the records, but sometimes I think she's just doing a job rather than actually feeling the lyrics.

It's strange we should have such differing opinions, but the forum would be really boring if everybody thought the same.

[BigAl]

I think it really didn't matter too much to Gordy whether Jean or Syreeta replaced Diane. He was finished with The Supremes no matter who was in the lead slot. I'm thinking his suggestion of a last-minute switcheroo was motivated by several factors. Perhaps he wanted to see if Mary and Cindy would just go along with the dictum, although he almost certainly knew they would not, after all the publicity and studio time. When they refused as he probably gambled they would, he was then able to use this as an excuse to "wash my hands of The Supremes." If they had acquiesced he would no doubt have found some other reason to be dismissive of them. Their intractability just made it easier for him because they "defied" him on the issue.

Musically, I'm sure the group would have fared nicely with Syreeta, even though Jean's powerhouse style took the group in what was probably a much-needed different direction. Had Sytreeta gotten the nod, the material would likely have been less bombastic but I think they would still have charted for a while just as they did with Jean.

[jobeterob]

Motown purchased full page ads for Bad Weather in all the trade magazines; I think those ads were running about $7000 a crack in 1970.

Another version of Bad Weather is that after it's release, it just didn't catch fire; the song is hookless and just meanders. And Motown very well saw that by 1973, the group was "out" as out could be; they needed to ditch Pedro, all the fancy dresses and get back in touch with the grass roots and the kids; and they weren't anywhere near close to it.

Perhaps if Syreeta had come in at that time, they dumped Pedro, took on new management, stabilized the members of the group, dropped the glitz and glamour and became a whole look more like the Pointer Sisters and the Emotions ~ they might have had a better chance.

[ivyfield]

Syreeta did record a [[demo?) version of Love Child.
Yeah - that's readily available on the internet - it's good too!

[marv2]

Motown purchased full page ads for Bad Weather in all the trade magazines; I think those ads were running about $7000 a crack in 1970.

Another version of Bad Weather is that after it's release, it just didn't catch fire; the song is hookless and just meanders. And Motown very well saw that by 1973, the group was "out" as out could be; they needed to ditch Pedro, all the fancy dresses and get back in touch with the grass roots and the kids; and they weren't anywhere near close to it.

Perhaps if Syreeta had come in at that time, they dumped Pedro, took on new management, stabilized the members of the group, dropped the glitz and glamour and became a whole look more like the Pointer Sisters and the Emotions ~ they might have had a better chance.

They didn't need to do any of that! The Supremes were the trendsetters for female groups for the most part. Like Fran, I had an awfully hard time finding a copy of "Bad Weather" in the stores. I eventually found a copy at a piano store that carried sheet music and some records in Toledo. I did not find it until 1975!!!!

So there was something going on there that had nothing to do with the Supremes vocals, performing abilities, their image or with their manager. You could not find their records in the stores and radio stations were no longer receiving copies for airplay.

[captainjames]

You know I almost asked Mary once that if she had to do it over again would she have went with Gordy's decision to crown Syretta a member of the group and was it worth it internally. Please do not mis interpret me or put words in my mouth but I believe Jean would have been an outstanding single solo artist. Eventhough, Jean was different the public was always comparing Jean to Diana in a sense and at one point said it was Diana on Up The Ladder. Ever Berry wanted Syretta, womder if he had already mentioned it to her.

[Jimi LaLumia]

this whole thing has been beaten to death, and I've supported every version of The Supremes, but as I've said before, the studio version of Bad Weather is mediocre,and there AREN'T any hooks, as stated elsewhere,it was a throwaway track, maybe Stevie 'in joke' to get even for Syretta being rejected by the group;
the 'live' slightly faster version on SOUL TRAIN was better, but still didn't sound like a bona fide 'hit'..they could have given The Supremes a hook laden track track like "Don't Leave Me This Way" but they didn't..it's history, whatever..

[robbert]

You could not find their records in the stores and radio stations were no longer receiving copies for airplay. Which could point to a plot within Motown to kill the Supremes! Wasn't it a B.G. who killed JFK after all?

[franjoy56]

The Supremes records through 1972 still sold inspite of shabby production, but in England they did even better wonder why. Up the Ladder # 9 Stoned Love #3 Nathan Jones #8 Floy Joy #13, Automatically Sunshine #16, all showing better numbers than in America, even though all except AS made the top twenty. Pedro was not the manager of the Supremes while Jean was in the group. It all really went downhill after Jean left even more evidently. Jean was the best choice inspite of what Motown did or did not do evidence is shown in the sold out copies of "This is the Story the 70's Albums..

[Jimi LaLumia]

the UK singles chart was/is a sales chart,not affected by radio airplay reports, so they couldn't 'kill' a record at radio as record labels did here for decades;
the 70's Supremes had as many big Top 40 singles in the UK as the 60's Supremes did;
but even the UK didn't really warm up to "Bad Weather", which says something about the record...
the Jean group had 5 consecutive Top Ten UK hits; then "Bad weather" came along, and stiffed at #37 on the UK chart; it was a career[[for Jean) killing record and did more damage to the group than the release of "Touch" did as far as their Top 40 standings were concerned[[and I like "Touch", but as an album track, it was certainly not hit single material)..

[franjoy56]

I heard i may be wrong that "Bad Weather" went top 40 in england so I will research that, and if that is the case it did a hell of a lot better than it did here: "Bad Weather" in my opinion was a great record that had potential, and it was killed before it picked up any possibility of airplay or worse it was never given to dj's which is what killed it, the song had all the ingredients of a hit.. Mary has praised it over the years, and still performs it..

[Jimi LaLumia]

I just gave you the number; Bad weather peaked at #37 in the UK chart, which is a disaster following 5 consecutive Top Ten hits; it didn't even go Top Thirty...and there was none of the Motown skullduggery in the UK,or else Nathan Jones, Floy Joy and Automatically Sunshine wouldn't have made it into the singles digits over there, which they all did...
sad to say, but Bad Weather as a singles choice was a Bad Record..they'd have done better with anything other than that..

[marv2]

You know I almost asked Mary once that if she had to do it over again would she have went with Gordy's decision to crown Syretta a member of the group and was it worth it internally. Please do not mis interpret me or put words in my mouth but I believe Jean would have been an outstanding single solo artist. Eventhough, Jean was different the public was always comparing Jean to Diana in a sense and at one point said it was Diana on Up The Ladder. Ever Berry wanted Syretta, womder if he had already mentioned it to her.

Mary will tell you NO! She loved Jean Terrell's singing and that Jean was the perfect one to join the group! They were not looking to appease Berry Gordy Jr. at that point. In fact, they were somewhat pissed off by the way things had turned out! I don't recall much comparision being made after that first 6 months to a year because it was clear that Jean was the superior singer and the Supremes had made an excellent choice in her. Also, Berry did not want to replace Jean suddenly because he began doubting her talents. It was more like a personal misunderstanding between the two that caused the sudden desire to want to change course at the last minute. [[I am trying my darndest to be politically correct here, hehehehehehe...).

Anyway, as big of a media event that Diana Ross leaving the Supremes was, no one believed that she decided to stay with the group and record Up the Ladder to the Roof". [[Besides it sounded nothing like her....) Also keep in mind that they debut the song on the Ed Sullivan Show and for all of you over say the age of 45, you know for a fact that we only had 3 maybe 4 television channels back then and most of America that watched television were tuned into CBS and the Ed Sullivan Show on Sundays. That's where the country saw Jean Terrell with the Supremes for the first time! Only hermits, idiots and fools thought that Diana Ross was still with the Supremes..........

[marv2]

this whole thing has been beaten to death, and I've supported every version of The Supremes, but as I've said before, the studio version of Bad Weather is mediocre,and there AREN'T any hooks, as stated elsewhere,it was a throwaway track, maybe Stevie 'in joke' to get even for Syretta being rejected by the group;
the 'live' slightly faster version on SOUL TRAIN was better, but still didn't sound like a bona fide 'hit'..they could have given The Supremes a hook laden track track like "Don't Leave Me This Way" but they didn't..it's history, whatever..


Why not just be frank? "Bad Weather" was just too soulful for some people. It was not the type of lightweight, bubblegum pop that the public had become use to hearing from the Supremes. The truth is, that single was HOT! It fit perfectly with the hit sound that was on the radio at that time [[i.e. Al Green, the Chi-Lites, etc,etc.).

You saw how the kids reacted to it on Soul Train. If the general public had the chance to hear it on their local radio stations, they would reacted positively to it as well. The track was hot, the vocals were superb and the sound was what was popular in 1973.

[marv2]

Which could point to a plot within Motown to kill the Supremes! Wasn't it a B.G. who killed JFK after all?

It may have been a plot or NOT! Ewart Abner was the President of Motown RECORDS at that time. But of course you know that right? Berry did not kill JFK, but he did allow others to kill his record business while he was off fooling around and losing money trying to make Diana Ross into movie star. But of course you know all of this.

[marv2]

The Supremes records through 1972 still sold inspite of shabby production, but in England they did even better wonder why. Up the Ladder # 9 Stoned Love #3 Nathan Jones #8 Floy Joy #13, Automatically Sunshine #16, all showing better numbers than in America, even though all except AS made the top twenty. Pedro was not the manager of the Supremes while Jean was in the group. It all really went downhill after Jean left even more evidently. Jean was the best choice inspite of what Motown did or did not do evidence is shown in the sold out copies of "This is the Story the 70's Albums..

I think a lot of it had to do with promotion. Didn't Motown in the U.K. and Europe have their own promotion departments?

Pedro cannot be blamed for Jean leaving or the records not selling in the States at that point. The Supremes with Jean Terrell in the group produced some very high quality records that are still listenable today.

[marv2]

I heard i may be wrong that "Bad Weather" went top 40 in england so I will research that, and if that is the case it did a hell of a lot better than it did here: "Bad Weather" in my opinion was a great record that had potential, and it was killed before it picked up any possibility of airplay or worse it was never given to dj's which is what killed it, the song had all the ingredients of a hit.. Mary has praised it over the years, and still performs it..

The only time anyone ever heard the song was when it was performed on television. It was a hit in some local markets such as Hawaii, Washington D.C. and in countries like Luxemburg......yep I said Luxemburg, hehehehehehehe!

[franjoy56]

Yes it was a #37 record in UK, apparently i didn not read every line of your thread, and it being a #37 record meant a whole lot better than the record did here in fact it did better than a lot of 60's Supremes records like my fav Back in my arms again and Love is Here, I hear a symphony, and Love is like an itching which did even make the top 20. "Bad Weather" was a funky record filled with Soul, which brought a black fan base the Supremes were lacking in the 60's and after I guess I'll miss the man it was a welcomed relief. so you did say it was #37, i didn't read it skipped over it, big deal. I loved the song so much that I am posting what wikipedia says about this song: Courtesy of Wikipedia Encylopedia.
When the song was first issued to radio in the summer of 1973, the song caught some initial positive buzz mainly from the Supremes' R&B fan base. The group performed it to a receptive audience on Soul Train [[http://soulfuldetroit.com/wiki/Soul_Train). But the buzz wore down as Motown refused to promote it and, according to Mary Wilson years later, it wasn't a favorite of Terrell's or Laurence's, although she loved it.[1] [[http://soulfuldetroit.com/#cite_note-autogenerated1-0) The song charted on the Billboard charts peaking at number 87 on the Billboard Hot 100 [[http://soulfuldetroit.com/wiki/Billboard_Hot_100) and number 74 on the R&B singles chart [[http://soulfuldetroit.com/wiki/Hot_R%26B/Hip-Hop_Songs). The song only peaked at the Top 40 of the UK singles chart [[http://soulfuldetroit.com/wiki/UK_Singles_Chart) at number 37. Shortly after this single was released, Terrell and Laurence left the Supremes. Cindy Birdsong returned from her maternity leave, and Mary Wilson hired Scherrie Payne [[http://soulfuldetroit.com/wiki/Scherrie_Payne) as the new co-lead singer. The next Supremes project would take two more years to come out. In 1975, the group scored a huge disco single with "He's My Man" with Wilson and Payne on lead.

[Constantin]

this whole thing has been beaten to death, and I've supported every version of The Supremes, but as I've said before, the studio version of Bad Weather is mediocre,and there AREN'T any hooks, as stated elsewhere,it was a throwaway track, maybe Stevie 'in joke' to get even for Syretta being rejected by the group;*the 'live' slightly faster version on SOUL TRAIN was better, but still didn't sound like a bona fide 'hit'..they could have given The Supremes a hook laden track track like "Don't Leave Me This Way" but they didn't..it's history, whatever..

You are right. Besides, in this single the production could be better: there is something forced, falsely frantic with piercing vocals [[but nevertheless the record is not up tempo!); that could be said for many recordings of the 70's Supremes, at a time when people were looking for something smoother like The Three Degrees or Love Unlimited, or singers that had vocal possibilities and sexiness without shouting like the soon to be called "disco divas".

To be frank, I've never heard "Bad Weather" on the radio; actually, I've never heard any song of the 70's Supremes on the radio. I know now this song exists because I bought the "Greatest hits and rare classics" compilation in the 90's. The only song of the 70's Supremes I knew during the 70's was "I'm gonna let my heart do the walking" because it was the B-side of Ross's "Love Hangover" 12" single.

I don't think that Motown lost complete interest in the Supremes: they recorded many songs and eleven albums between 1970 and 1976 is not that bad. But they were not what people were looking for anymore. Things started to go downhill for the Supremes when they began to lose their personality with colorless recordings. Even the three disco records were not big hits for that reason, even if they are quite enjoyable.

[jillfoster]

You are right. Besides, in this single the production could be better: there is something forced, falsely frantic with piercing vocals [[but nevertheless the record is not up tempo!); that could be said for many recordings of the 70's Supremes, at a time when people were looking for something smoother like The Three Degrees or Love Unlimited, or singers that had vocal possibilities and sexiness without shouting like the soon to be called "disco divas".

To be frank, I've never heard "Bad Weather" on the radio; actually, I've never heard any song of the 70's Supremes on the radio. I know now this song exists because I bought the "Greatest hits and rare classics" compilation in the 90's. The only song of the 70's Supremes I knew during the 70's was "I'm gonna let my heart do the walking" because it was the B-side of Ross's "Love Hangover" 12" single.

I don't think that Motown lost complete interest in the Supremes: they recorded many songs and eleven albums between 1970 and 1976 is not that bad. But they were not what people were looking for anymore. Things started to go downhill for the Supremes when they began to lose their personality with colorless recordings. Even the three disco records were not big hits for that reason, even if they are quite enjoyable.

None of those recordings are colorless at all, as a matter of fact, there are lots of people who ONLY liked the Jean, Mary, Cindy version of the group, my own brother being one of them, because he finds Diana's voice grating, and can't stand disco. I hear 70's Supremes songs more often than one might think.... as a matter of fact, Stoned Love was playing in Home Depot just day before yesterday when I was in there shopping.

[bradsupremes]

I'm actually surprised that the local oldies station where I live still plays several of the 70's Supremes hits. It was common about 10 years ago as they played mostly 60's and early 70's hits. Now, they have transitioned into playing only the major memorable hits of the 60's and lots of 70's/early 80's hits. Every now and then I'm surprised when I hear "Stoned Love," "Up The Ladder To The Roof," "Nathan Jones," and "Floy Joy" still being played. I find it funny because it's been a long time since I've heard "The Happening," "Love Is Like An Itching In My Heart," and "In And Out of Love" being played and those were top 10 hits for the group. It's interesting how radio stations pick and choose what songs to play. It's been a LONG time since I heard Jackie Wilson's "[[Your Love Keeps Lifting Me) Higher And Higher" on the radio and that's his most memorable song. However, they have no problem playing the entire Beatles catalog. I think the public would rather hear something like Jackie Wilson's "Higher And Higher" than some Beatles track that was only meant to be an album filler.

There was one exception though back in 2009 when they dedicated a whole weekend to celebrating Motown's 50th anniversary. Songs you would never think to hear on the radio today got played like Jimmy Ruffin's version of "Beauty Is Only Skin Deep," Chris Clark's "Love Gone Bad," and old Coca-Cola/Pepsi jingles got played.

[144man]

I just gave you the number; Bad weather peaked at #37 in the UK chart, which is a disaster following 5 consecutive Top Ten hits; it didn't even go Top Thirty...and there was none of the Motown skullduggery in the UK,or else Nathan Jones, Floy Joy and Automatically Sunshine wouldn't have made it into the singles digits over there, which they all did...
sad to say, but Bad Weather as a singles choice was a Bad Record..they'd have done better with anything other than that..

It was particularly disastrous if you take into account they were on tour in the UK at the time to promote the record.

[franjoy56]

All i am going to add is that once again Jean was a better choice than Syretta Wright for the supremes for the reasons previously mentioned. Bad Weather was a great record to fans of black music, the record was not readily available, and it will go down in history as one of the greatest failures of the 70's Supremes. They didn't gave a particular producer producing fabulous records so this is what they got from Stevie and on short notice it was suppose to resemble a hit, but Motown had other plans. 2.5 years later the Supremes hit #1 on the disco charts
with "He's My Man" followed the following year with a #3 disco record with "let mY HEART DO THE WALKING" and "HIgh Energy" sailing on the LP chart at #42.

[luke]

Oh please Whatever. Lynda Lawrence was on good terms with Stevie and he wanted them to have a hit. Stevie was not happy that it didnt hit.

[jobeterob]

Yes, I would be hard pressed to think Syreeta or anyone else would actually have done better than Jean as a Supreme. I remember the Rolling Stone review of Touch saying what a superb singer Jean was. And remember, Right On was in many ways very close to a solo album by Jean; probably half the tracks are Jean with the Andantes.

[Constantin]

http://soulfuldetroit.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png*Originally Posted by*franjoy56*http://soulfuldetroit.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png [[http://soulfuldetroit.com/showthread.php?p=103358#post103358)
2.5 years later the Supremes hit #1 on the disco charts*with "He's My Man" followed the following year with a #3 disco record with "let mY HEART DO THE WALKING" and "HIgh Energy" sailing on the LP chart at #42.



Well... That was said before but those songs were not "disco hits" actually. I never heard them on the radio or in clubs and in the 70's I was listening a lot of radio. I never saw a physical copy of the singles either. Those songs do not appear on disco retrospectives [[or seldom appear in the case of "I'm gonna let my heart"): those #1 or #3 are absolutely meaningless for disco fans. You can not compare the Supremes disco singles with "YMCA" by the Village People or "Shake your groove thing" by Peaches and Herb, both songs that were only #2. But those were real hits and are still considered hits today.

The three disco albums by the Supremes were very nice but to call them hits is exaggerated. They would have been hits, the Supremes would have recorded more albums after 1976. It is not the case.

[simplysupreme]

there are lots of people who ONLY liked the Jean, Mary, Cindy version of the group, my own brother being one of them, because he finds Diana's voice grating

By the same token, I know several people who feel that way about Jean's voice.

[marv2]

Jean had the best voice. She could sing just about anything.

[johnjeb]

Well... That was said before but those songs were not "disco hits" actually. I never heard them on the radio or in clubs and in the 70's I was listening a lot of radio. I never saw a physical copy of the singles either. Those songs do not appear on disco retrospectives [[or seldom appear in the case of "I'm gonna let my heart"): those #1 or #3 are absolutely meaningless for disco fans. You can not compare the Supremes disco singles with "YMCA" by the Village People or "Shake your groove thing" by Peaches and Herb, both songs that were only #2. But those were real hits and are still considered hits today.

The three disco albums by the Supremes were very nice but to call them hits is exaggerated. They would have been hits, the Supremes would have recorded more albums after 1976. It is not the case.

According to Joel Whitburn's Hot Dance Disco 1974-2003 Billboard Chart book [[info compiled from Billboard Dance Charts):

I'm Gonna Let My Heart Do The Walking debut 5/15/1976; peak #3; 12 weeks on chart
High Energy debut 5/15/1976; peak #9; 4 weeks
Driving Wheel/Let Yourself Go/Love I Never Knew debut 11/13/1976 peak #5; 17 weeks
Medley of Hits [[DRATS) debut 3/15/1980; peak #46; 16 weeks

I have the singles for Heart [[M1391), Wheel [[M1407) & Let Yourself Go [[M1415). I also do not recall hearing these songs on Top 40 radio, but I bought my singles at my local suburban Mom & Pop record store when they were released in 1976.

I agree that these are not Disco Classics but they were played, some more than others, in the gay clubs in 1976. They may be "meaningless for disco fans", but only for those who were not disco fans in that era!

[skooldem1]

"Bad weather" is considered to "soulful" for some? Nothing the 70's Supremes did was soulful IMO. More of the same pop/soul stuff they had been doing for years. All these years all we have heard is how the public had moved on from the Supremes pop music and fully embraced the new "soulful" Supremes. It that was the case, then this should have been a hit. I think it makes fans look desparate in trying to justify why it didn't hit, and all those conspiracy theories. How stupid would I sound going on and on about how "the force behind the power" didn't hit because of this and because of that. That was not a good song- period. Bad weather wasn't all that either. It is as simple as that.

[smark21]

"Bad weather" is considered to "soulful" for some? Nothing the 70's Supremes did was soulful IMO. More of the same pop/soul stuff they had been doing for years. All these years all we have heard is how the public had moved on from the Supremes pop music and fully embraced the new "soulful" Supremes. It that was the case, then this should have been a hit. I think it makes fans look desparate in trying to justify why it didn't hit, and all those conspiracy theories. How stupid would I sound going on and on about how "the force behind the power" didn't hit because of this and because of that. That was not a good song- period. Bad weather wasn't all that either. It is as simple as that.

Sometimes I think as fans when we enjoy a song we want others to enjoy it as well and when it doesn’t become a hit we find reasons to explain why it didn’t become more popular rather than accepting it and moving on while still enjoying the song.

[Jimi LaLumia]

I'd like to hear Stevie Wonder do this song...but The supremes version...horrific,and a sad finale for The Jean Terrell Years...what a way to go-go!!

[BayouMotownMan]

The problem with Berry putting Syreeta into the group was that he wanted to do it only hours after Jean Terrell had been brought onstage...by Diana herself, and introduced as the new lead singer. Berry Gordy often had second thoughts about his bigger decisions. He had second thoughts on the J5 after a killer audition because they were all underage [[or at least 4 were). He had second thoughts about Marvin's "What's Going On" single and album. He had second thoughts about Mahogany, which in its planning stages was on and off for over a year. The biggest problem was that bringing Jean Terrell in from outside the company meant that she spoke up when not in agreement and questioned things that artists developed by Motown didn't do. Syreeta would have gone with the plan possibly more easily than Jean did. Jean made it clear, she was not going to be a Diana Ross imitator.

I agree that the recorded version of Bad Weather left much to be desired. When I first heard it I didn't like it. Jean just wasn't in good voice for that session. In concert however, she nailed it and gave the song life.

[Jimi LaLumia]

I don't blame Jean, Mary or Cindy;
the arrangement, the pacing, which seemed to be clunky and plodding along, everything about the 'beats per minute' and the 'sour' sound of the music itself worked against the girls,
as I said...horrific...[[and I loved many Supremes singles that were not chart hits..
Bad Weather was simply unlovable..it was bad news,and a real bad record...

[144man]

I feel that the failure of "Bad Weather" had more to do with the weakness of the song melodically than any shortcomings of the Supremes' line-up.

[Jimi LaLumia]

that's what i just said...
records of that period by Al Green,The O Jays, etc had a 'bounce' to them, there was no bounce to "Bad weather", watch the kids on Soul train trying to dance to it....it was a musically deflated tire next to everything else that was out there..very sad, should have never been released

[144man]

that's what i just said...

Your post wasn't up when I was writing mine. That was Srevie Wonder's weakest composition since "We'll Have It Made" for the Spinners.

[marv2]

The problem with Berry putting Syreeta into the group was that he wanted to do it only hours after Jean Terrell had been brought onstage...by Diana herself, and introduced as the new lead singer. Berry Gordy often had second thoughts about his bigger decisions. He had second thoughts on the J5 after a killer audition because they were all underage [[or at least 4 were). He had second thoughts about Marvin's "What's Going On" single and album. He had second thoughts about Mahogany, which in its planning stages was on and off for over a year. The biggest problem was that bringing Jean Terrell in from outside the company meant that she spoke up when not in agreement and questioned things that artists developed by Motown didn't do. Syreeta would have gone with the plan possibly more easily than Jean did. Jean made it clear, she was not going to be a Diana Ross imitator.

I agree that the recorded version of Bad Weather left much to be desired. When I first heard it I didn't like it. Jean just wasn't in good voice for that session. In concert however, she nailed it and gave the song life.

Somehow I doubt that Syreeta Wright would have went along with the "plan" that Berry had. Jean sure DID make it VERY clear that she was not going do what Diana Ross did, hehehehehehehe! Good for her!

I wish I had magical powers to make Berry come onto this forum and read this particular thread, he would be crying his eyes out with laughter! LOL!!!

[marv2]

I disagree! It looks to me like the kids were cutting up to "Bad Weather and just short of showing out completely! LOL! "Bad Weather" was a great record. It apparently wa just too soulful for some Supremes fans, but the biggest problem was you could not find it in record stores at the time. Radio stations did not receive it for airplay.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REZS7pLLmvc

[franjoy56]

Marvin you hit a home run with that clip, look like the soul train fans were doin the pocorn bouncing up and down, and Jean's vocals were much better on the live version. She didn't hold back, "Bad weather" was out of sight it wasn't up to the standards of "Up the ladder to the roof" but plain and simple the record was not distributed and if these fans can't accept well just have to keep speaking up about "Bad Weather" until it is beaten to death. Jean didn't go out on a bad note because her tenure as the lead singer of the Supremes has been highlighted by the sold out print of the Jean Terrell Years: This is the Story" released in 06 which by the way includes "Bad Weather" hehehehe.

[Jimi LaLumia]

Soul Train performance- very entertaining
the actual Bad Weather record- muddling and mediocre at best!

[jillfoster]

Jean was on FIRE that day, and I agree, the live version is better than the record. this was tons better than the record, too. sounds like poeple in the production booth should have left Jean the hell ALONE:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOnBWb5aMLo

It was alluded to that producers always reigned her in to appeal more to the white teeny boppers. I believe it. and ladies and gentlemen, the above is THE WAY IT IS DONE, that is how you sing using runs without oversinging a song and butchering it.

[franjoy56]

well said Jill, i believe some of the tracks would have done better had they letJean run with it, after all Jean was no Dianasoundalike except when Motown wanted a rossalike sound ie. Precious Little Things, and Over and Over.. even I guess ill miss the man sounds better here, the same is true when they performed Your Wonderful Sweet Love on the flip wilson show.

[Jimi LaLumia]

all I know is that the legendary Motown Quality Control people must having been doing crack on the day that they let THAT version of "Bad Weather" slip through as a single release...
and Motown didn't get to play their games in the UK,and UK record buyers also turned their backs after 5 consecutive Top ten singles over there...
and again, Jean and the girls weren't the problem on "Bad", the music, the arrangement and the pacing/BPMs were the problems..

[144man]

When I saw the Supremes performing "Bad Weather" in concert in London, it only got a luke-warm reception despite them handing out whistles for members of the audience to participate.

[franjoy56]

interesting views, i guess the brits weren't used to hearing the supremes "soul" it up inspite of the tempo and pacing of the song that you guys claim was off, noneltheless we would have considered "Bad Weather" a hit in America had it reached #37 here #37 anywhere is not a bad rating period especially for the supremes whose records sales were slipping.

[Jimi LaLumia]

#37 is a hit?...on what planet???...lol
let me ask you, do you think that "The Composer" and "No Matter What Sign You Are " were hits? or "Forever Came Today"? they all did better than #37,and are widely regarded as flops for failing to break the Top Twenty, which is the ONLY place were real hits live; everything else is just a build up..

[milven]

Yes, # 37 is a hit. A TOP FORTY HIT. Since the '50's when top forty hit shows started on radio, a song in the top forty is a hit. But by Supreme standards, a group that had so many top ten and number one hits, # 37 was considered a flop.

People in my area had no trouble finding Bad Weather in their local record shop. Of course you had to go to a shop that had their finger on the pulse of the buyers. My local shop sold the record two at a time to dee-jays who extended the record while playing it in discos.

The posts above are right in that there was not that much airplay on the record. But I do remember Motown putting full page ads in Cashbox, Billboard and Record World.

Some say that the Supremes failed in the end because they stood stuck in time in their sequined gowns and sound.
Bad Weather, and the clip above, shows that they were trying to move forward.

[ivyfield]

"... Leola would have been SO much better than Scherrie Payne for the group. Instead, we got the Ethel Merman of soul music" I don't really get your analogy but by that comment does it make Ollie Woodson the Pavarotti of soul music? I never heard of the singer you said might have relpaced Jean. she and the group The Apollas didn't make a mark here in the UK. For others interested here they were in action: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wj5IJlAgZnM&feature=fvsr

[franjoy56]

Those flop Supremes singles from the late 60's weren't that bad, but yes they didn't do well and it was expected that a Supremes record with Ms. Ross in the group would instantly sell, in England i don't even think Forever Came Today, No matter, The Composer, or Somethings you never get made the top 50. With this being said "Bad Weather" beat all four of those records in England so yes #37 would be considered a mild hit. "No Matter wSign you are" was a great dance record couldn't understand why that one didn't do better here. I stand by my conclusion that "Bad Weather' is one of the greatest failures of the 70's Supremes. I would love to have seen an add for "Bad Weather" in any of the trade magazine that was mentioned.

[Constantin]

Instead, we got the Ethel Merman of soul music

Oh yes... :-)

[roger]

Those flop Supremes singles from the late 60's weren't that bad, but yes they didn't do well and it was expected that a Supremes record with Ms. Ross in the group would instantly sell, in England i don't even think Forever Came Today, No matter, The Composer, or Somethings you never get made the top 50. With this being said "Bad Weather" beat all four of those records in England so yes #37 would be considered a mild hit. "No Matter wSign you are" was a great dance record couldn't understand why that one didn't do better here. I stand by my conclusion that "Bad Weather' is one of the greatest failures of the 70's Supremes. I would love to have seen an add for "Bad Weather" in any of the trade magazine that was mentioned.

Actually franjoy56 .. "No Matter What Sign You Are", "Some Things You Never Get Used To" and "Forever Came Today" did all become top 50 hits in England .. their peak U.K. chart positions, according to the Guinness Book of Hit Records were ..

"Forever Came Today" - #28
"Some Things You Never Get Used To" - #34
"No Matter What Sign You Are" - #37

"The Composer" was never released as a U.K. single.

Roger

[Jimi LaLumia]

a real hit is a song that everyone knows when it gets played in a club or on the radio and that many folks own... and by the way.."Top 50 hit' is an oxymoron...

[144man]

On the radio, they used to talk about "major hits" and "minor hits". I never did find out where the boundary between the two lay.

[smark21]

How would you classify/define a song or record that wasn’t a big hit when first released but over the years becomes well known and popular?

[144man]

How would you classify/define a song or record that wasn’t a big hit when first released but over the years becomes well known and popular?

Wasn't that called "a turntable hit"?

[Jimi LaLumia]

no, a turntable hit got lots of radio airplay, but never really racked up the sales that all that airplay should have generated...lots of people heard turntable hits, but lots of people didn't actually BUY turntable hits...
many songs become hits years after they're released, thanks to inclusion in a movie soundtrack or a tv show or commercial, but there's not a real term for this type of 'hit'..a minor hit is a record that scrapes into the national Top 40 for a week or two...
a MAJOR hit is a #1 /Top Ten record[[sales AND airplay) or, at minimum, gets into the top 20 for a couple of weeks...
by the 1970's most major Top 40 stations had become Top 30 stations [[or in NY or L.A., thanks to 'tight playlists', the same 15 to 20 records in constant rotation, with the Top 5 played to DEATH!)...a #37 record didn't stand a chance...

[franjoy56]

well in the case of your descriptions here in the end a #37 record would have been a minor hit in your words therefore "Bad Weather" was a minor hit in England, and Jean left the Supremes with a minor hit in England and a flop over here [[due to reasons we already discussed) all tolled in America The Supremes under Ms. Terrell had 5 top 20 hits 2 top ten, and #1 r&b 8 albums [[3 with the Tops) and a sold out Hiposelect retrospect of their their 5 1970's albums in 2006 [[which includes the "Bad Weather" single) entitled This Is The Story:The Jean Terrell Years, and all of this with Berry Gordy washing his hands of the Supremes.

[Jimi LaLumia]

I love Jean Terrell and I think she was robbed ,if you know what I mean...
but the truth IS the truth when it comes to chart positions and the impact they have on a career...
I still listen to the Jean tracks quite frequently..

[RossHolloway]

Syreeta's Love Child Demo.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/uYk1uHZQTs4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>



Sorry I only know how to post the link...

[franjoy56]

i totally agree with you that Jean Terrell was robbed, she should have been given
superior material to sing, she even commented in one of the motown books that
the later material she was given to sing was "junk" perhaps as Mary said she did not like "Bad Weather" and The Jimmy Webb project with all those screaming blossoms singing when it should have been just mary and lynda, especially on the ballads.

[Roberta75]

i totally agree with you that Jean Terrell was robbed, she should have been given
superior material to sing, she even commented in one of the motown books that
the later material she was given to sing was "junk" perhaps as Mary said she did not like "Bad Weather" and The Jimmy Webb project with all those screaming blossoms singing when it should have been just mary and lynda, especially on the ballads.

Nobody was robbed more than poor Florence Ballard though Frances.

Fondly,

Roberta

[franjoy56]

that is true Flo was the most robbed singer Motown ever had. Syretta Wright sounds like a carbon copy of Diana Ross on Love Child, no wonder Mary said no.

[ivyfield]

Quite simple. Both women sing all their songs as loud as they possibly can, any vocal from them comes across as a vocal exercise, and not an emotional expression. There is only unadulterated volume, devoid of sensitivity, feeling, and nuance. The sad part is, Scherrie Payne is CAPABLE of much better, as you can hear on "Horse and Rider", which is total brilliance. But it was only that way because Eddie MADE her sing it like that, and back the hell off.

Jillfoster - I have to defend this because although I agree that Scherrie is a little 'belter' [[little lady with the big voice and all that) is absolutely NOT from the Ethel Merman school of singing. You do say that Scherrie is CAPABLE of much better - I just want you to hear this song we did on Supremely Yours that proves Scherrie understands the 'light and shade' technique and knows how to approach any type of song. Of all the tracks I've recorded with the ladies, this is still my favourite. I hope you can understand why I had to post this. Scherrie can belt, but she does smooth equally as good. Steve Weaver.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-qLId_zWVA

[RossHolloway]

Nobody was robbed more than poor Florence Ballard though Frances.

Fondly,

Roberta

I think to a certain extent Florence robber herself.

[Jimi LaLumia]

I agree...to an extent the "Flo as victim" thing is grossly overplayed[[and I participated in that for a while myself)...
she should have been thrilled to be in the biggest American group of the 1960's,and she saw that Motown groups as a rule had ONE lead singer to establish a uniform sound..except for The Marvelettes[[and look what happened to them) and The Tempts gave Eddie a few leads on singles releases[[Get Ready,The Way You do The Things You Do,etc) but those tracks never became as big as the David Ruffin sound hits were..

[RossHolloway]

The Temps actually had three lead singers, you can't forget Paul Williams amazing vocals. I also don't think all the tension was about just having one lead singer, I think their were other things at play within the group, just like all the other groups at the time, both male and female...

[Jimi LaLumia]

methinks it was mostly about the green eyed monster, JEALOUSY..isn't almost everything in life?

[RossHolloway]

methinks it was mostly about the green eyed monster, JEALOUSY..isn't almost everything in life?

I'd put greed for money, sex, religion and politics ahead of jealousy

[Constantin]

http://soulfuldetroit.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png*Originally Posted by*smark21*http://soulfuldetroit.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png [[http://soulfuldetroit.com/showthread.php?p=104355#post104355)
How would you classify/define a song or record that wasn’t a big hit when first released but over the years becomes well known and popular?


Wasn't that called "a turntable hit"?

A sleeper hit I think. Like Charlene's "I've never been to me".

[Constantin]

Quite simple. Both women sing all their songs as loud as they possibly can, any vocal from them comes across as a vocal exercise, and not an emotional expression. There is only unadulterated volume, devoid of sensitivity, feeling, and nuance. The sad part is, Scherrie Payne is CAPABLE of much better.*

Unfortunately, that is the simple truth.

[MIKEW-UK]

Um, anybody want to hear another version of Bad Weather?

:D


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnEZAY3xqsw

[marv2]

Um, anybody want to hear another version of Bad Weather?

:D


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnEZAY3xqsw

Not bad. She is sounding more like Phoebe Snow, than Jean & The Supremes.

[Jimi LaLumia]

this just confirms my feelings on this song;
if Stevie Wonder, a blind man associated with funk, had recorded this himself, the results might be different;
the same is true with "Force Behind The Power" by Miss Ross;
that, also, did NOT work for me AT ALL...
the story lines might work if Stevie does them, they don't work for The 70's Supremes,or Diana Ross...for me they don't,anyway...
Stevie was 'hot' and they wanted to say 'we're doing a song that Stevie Wonder gave us"...
welll, maybe he gave these songs away for A REASON!....lol

[franjoy56]

DID Melissa's version of this song chart in the UK, i like parts of this song, for the most part I prefer the Terrell version even though others are throwing stones at it, and yes perhaps it could have been improved but hey it is what it is.

[captainjames]

I am still not convinced that Ms. Wright would not have worked for the Supremes and why they needed to changed "style". The Supremes were "HOT" with "Someday We'll Be Together" and something else in the same vein would have worked for them just as well. The Supremes could have still sung other songs on their LP but remained Supreme. The went from end to the other side and never returned.

[franjoy56]

Make no mistake about it, when the Supremes debut on the Ed Sullivan show on Feb 14 1970, i sat nervously in front of my b&w tv with my boy friend and nervously watched the new Supremes, and Ed Sullivan said here is their first record together, [[wihout Ms. Ross) "uP THE lADDER TO THE ROOF" was a bag of chavier potato chips and all that I was sold. The next day I went to the record store on Fulton Street, and had to go to three stores before I found a copy the other two stores had sold out. With Syretta on that song people would have thought Diana was still with the Supremes, Jean was what the Supremes, Mary and Cindy needed and that folks is all.

[ivyfield]

WOW! Never heard this track before. She had such a BEAUTIFUL voice.