Racist murder of 17 year old Trayvon Martin in Florida

[smark21]

Has anyone else been following the case in Florida of a 17 year old African American teenager who was shot be white/hispanic trigger happy Neighborhood Watch patrolman whom the police let go scot free? Here's the latest--apparently the police in the community were lying when they initially claimed that the neighborhood watch guy didn't know what color the 17 year was.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/16/2697604/trayvon-martins-parents-criss.html?asset_id=2699335&asset_type=audio

[Jerry Oz]

There's a lot about this on ABCNews.com. Between this and the "Don't Re-Nig in 2012" bumper stickers, it's clear that we aren't much further along in 2012 than we were when Emmit Till was murdered.

[marv2]

I was wondering when someone was going to mention this. It is a horrific tragedy that is only getting minor media attention via CNN mainly. How does this stuff keep happening?

[marv2]

There's a lot about this on ABCNews.com. Between this and the "Don't Re-Nig in 2012" bumper stickers, it's clear that we aren't much further along in 2012 than we were when Emmit Till was murdered.

Isn't it a shame? I really believed things would have gotten better by now.

[Jerry Oz]

I did too. I try to imagine the shoes being on opposite feet: The teenager shooting the block watch vigilante for any possible reason. I'm sure the cops would take his word for it that he was defending himself. Time to dust off my old Public Enemy records...

[funky_fresh]

The shooting of an innocent young man is tragic but Can someone explain how the whole world has figured out that George Zimmerman is a racist?

Truly, explain it.

Criminal, stupid? The courts will decide but racist?

I guess we can without a doubt paint every black on white or black on latino crime as racist in nature as well with this illogic.

[marv2]

The shooting of an innocent young man is tragic but Can someone explain how the whole world has figured out that George Zimmerman is a racist?

Truly, explain it.

Criminal, stupid? The courts will decide but racist?


I guess we can without a doubt paint every black on white or black on latino crime as racist in nature as well with this illogic.

I don't know. I highly doubt that he would have shot and killed a white kid coming home from getting candy and a soda though. I hope he, George Zimmerman gets the Death Penalty!

Marv

[marv2]

He should get the Death Penalty because not only did he commit cold blooded murder on an unarmed individual [[he was told to do nothing until the police arrived.....)

But, he lied about it and said he shot the kid in self defense. Death Penalty for George Zimmerman is the only way I will not believe this is a case of pure racism.

[soulster]

The shooting of an innocent young man is tragic but Can someone explain how the whole world has figured out that George Zimmerman is a racist?

Truly, explain it.

Criminal, stupid? The courts will decide but racist?

I guess we can without a doubt paint every black on white or black on latino crime as racist in nature as well with this illogic.

Many whites have a heightened sense of fear when they see a Black person, even if they don't recognize it. They imagine the the threat is greater than it is. It's the same as when some Blacks automatically think all whites are racist.Just like the study that came out a couple of days ago that found that people who have arachnophobia imagine the spider is much larger than it really is. fear a a great and dangerous motivaror. It causes war and other tragedies.

Police rarely take this into account when a non-white gets killed by a white cop. They don't seen to believe believe that whites can be biased.

I cannot say the shooter was a racist, but I can say that it was racially motivated considering what I explained above, and the statement he made about being tired of these "assholes"..

[marv2]

Many whites have a heightened sense of fear when they see a Black person, even if they don't recognize it. They imagine the the threat is greater than it is. It's the same as when some Blacks automatically think all whites are racist.Just like the study that came out a couple of days ago that found that people who have arachnophobia imagine the spider is much larger than it really is. fear a a great and dangerous motivaror. It causes war and other tragedies.

Police rarely take this into account when a non-white gets killed by a white cop. They don't seen to believe believe that whites can be biased.

I cannot say the shooter was a racist, but I can say that it was racially motivated considering what I explained above, and the statement he made about being tired of these "assholes"..


Don't fall for the same old okey doke! That man would have never drawn a gun and shot and killed that kid had be been white. We know this! The 911 tapes are already proving that Zimmerman and police lied to cover up this murder. The police originally claimed that Zimmerman didn't know the color or ethnicity of the teenager he was following. In the 911 tapes Zimmerman clearly states that the kid was a black male in his late teens........ I don't want a discussion of black on white, black on black, black on latino etc,etc crime. I would like to focus on the FACTS of THIS CASE. I will follow this one to conclusion.

[soulster]

Don't fall for the same old okey doke! That man would have never drawn a gun and shot and killed that kid had be been white. We know this! The 911 tapes are already proving that Zimmerman and police lied to cover up this murder. The police originally claimed that Zimmerman didn't know the color or ethnicity of the teenager he was following. In the 911 tapes Zimmerman clearly states that the kid was a black male in his late teens........ I don't want a discussion of black on white, black on black, black on latino etc,etc crime. I would like to focus on the FACTS of THIS CASE. I will follow this one to conclusion.

I addressed how I saw it. Yes, Zimmerman lied and tried to say that the victim was an aggressor, and yes, the police tried to cover it up, like they always do. Still, I am not excusing him for what he did by speaking to what could be the psychology behind it.

Only a through investigation of Zimmerman can reveal evidence that he acted racially. Either way, race was part of this, and it was premeditated. Zimmerman should do serious time. But, in this age of a "Black" President of the United States, with the racists coming out clutching their bibles and guns, i'll bet he walks.

The cops won't even charge the man. That speaks volumes.

[marv2]

I addressed how I saw it. Yes, Zimmerman lied and tried to say that the victim was an aggressor, and yes, the police tried to cover it up, like they always do. Still, I am not excusing him for what he did by speaking to what could be the psychology behind it.

Only a through investigation of Zimmerman can reveal evidence that he acted racially. Either way, race was part of this, and it was premeditated. Zimmerman should do serious time. But, in this age of a "Black" President of the United States, with the racists coming out clutching their bibles and guns, i'll bet he walks.

The cops won't even charge the man. That speaks volumes.

Witnesses that heard the kid begging for help claim that the cries stopped abruptly once they heard the gunshot. So imagine this kid lying there or even standing there begging for his life [[keep in mind he had committed no crime) and Mr. Zimmerman shoots him anyway! I say that it is even worse than racism, it is inhumane!

[Kamasu_Jr]

What I don't understand is how someone identified as a member of a neighborhood watch group has the authority to shoot and kill someone? I'm a member of my neighborhood watch and all I can do is call the police if I see a crime being committted. When did neighborhood watch volunteers become police officers?

[splanky]

Good question, Kam, when did that happen?
I also find myself agreeing with soulster. Ten dollars to a donut the guy walks. And if he's not racist he sure does
a pretty good impression of one...
Oh, and Jerry Oz...I believe some of us have moved a very long way beyond Emmit Till's time while others have gone back actually further.That we have a black man in the White House has stirred up a mess of them...

[marv2]

Although I cannot imagine it happening, let's say Mr. Zimmerman "walks". What possible case could his attorney put forth that would allow a jury to find him not guilty of even criminally neglient homicide?

[soulster]

Witnesses that heard the kid begging for help claim that the cries stopped abruptly once they heard the gunshot. So imagine this kid lying there or even standing there begging for his life [[keep in mind he had committed no crime) and Mr. Zimmerman shoots him anyway! I say that it is even worse than racism, it is inhumane!

Ya, I just heard that this morning in the news. In that case, I was right. it was premeditated, and the cops are complicit in all of this. And, he'll walk. Nothing has changed in this country. I wonder what funky-fresh has to say now.

[P-Shark: The Revenge]

Here's a petition to prosecute killer

http://www.change.org/petitions/prosecute-the-killer-of-17-year-old-trayvon-martin

[soulster]

Here's a petition to prosecute killer

http://www.change.org/petitions/prosecute-the-killer-of-17-year-old-trayvon-martin

What have we come to as a nation when we have to petition to get someone arrested for a premeditated murder?

I hope the Justice Department steps in, the family files a civil suit, and the police chief loses his job over this. Or, maybe some of that "good 'ol boy" justice will find the shooter.

[P-Shark: The Revenge]

^Good point

[marv2]

It is pathetic that a petition and a march must be used in 2012 just to get the justice that should be expected by any American Citizen. How could they even think of letting this man go free? HE WENT HOME THE SAME NIGHT OF THE MURDER!

[MotownSteve]

What have we come to as a nation when we have to petition to get someone arrested for a premeditated murder?

I hope the Justice Department steps in, the family files a civil suit, and the police chief loses his job over this. Or, maybe some of that "good 'ol boy" justice will find the shooter.

Hey soulster. I agree with you 100+%

[Jerry Oz]

Ya, I just heard that this morning in the news. In that case, I was right. it was premeditated, and the cops are complicit in all of this. And, he'll walk. Nothing has changed in this country. I wonder what funky-fresh has to say now.

We've seen this played out hundreds of times in our country's history. Even if they charge him, the cops will only do so much to investigate and assist the prosecution. Consequently, the hand-picked jury [[in the same state that let Casey Anthony walk) will find him not guilty. I thank God that I'm too far away for any of the scenarios in my mind to be considered feasible or I might be in jail tomorrow, myself. But it would be "self-defense", so maybe I could go home that night as well.

[Roberta75]

I urge everyone to please sign this important petition.

Thank you,

Roberta
Seventeen-year-old Trayvon Martin was shot and killed while walking home from a convenience store on the evening of February 26. The shooter, George Zimmerman, was the neighborhood watch captain. Zimmerman, a 200-pound 28-year-old with a history of violence, claimed self defense, even though Trayvon Martin had no criminal history and nothing more than candy and an iced tea in his hands.
It's a deep injustice that George Zimmerman remains free. That's why I created a petition on SignOn.org to Florida Attorney General Pam Bondi and U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder, which says:
George Zimmerman's shooting of Trayvon Martin, an African American teenager, reveals a history of racism in Sanford, Florida, that has stubbornly refused to die. Weeks after the shooting, the Sanford police department is slow to release details of the shooting and, more surprisingly, has not arrested George Zimmerman, a man who has a history of violence.
We urge you to sign this petition to protect private citizens from gun violence and inept law enforcement. Florida's Attorney General Pam Bondi must step in and provide justice for Trayvon Martin, his family, and the community.
Will you sign the petition? Click here to add your name, and then pass it along to your friends:
http://www.moveon.org/r?r=272971&id=37516-9003611-vAxZ8ix&t=2

[MotownSteve]

I just heard some tapes of calls to the police. There is no doubt in my mind that there is enough evidence to arrest Zimmerman.

[milven]

The shooter, George Zimmerman, wanted to be a cop. For some reason, thankfully, he did not get to become a police officer. Usually, people like him try to get jobs where they have some kind of authority - auxiliary cops, guards, etc. Zimmerman was a neighborhood watch volunteer. He has called 911 more than three dozen times and they were all false alarms. Zimmerman's neighborhood watch group was never registered and Zimmerman violated basic neighborhood guidelines which state to never carry a gun and never confront a suspect. He chased the kid even though 911 told him not to. This is miles away from self defense. Zimmerman probably sees himself as a protector when in fact, he is a vigilante.

[Roberta75]

I just heard some tapes of calls to the police. There is no doubt in my mind that there is enough evidence to arrest Zimmerman.

Then sign the moveon petition please.

[Roberta75]

The shooter, George Zimmerman, wanted to be a cop. For some reason, thankfully, he did not get to become a police officer. Usually, people like him try to get jobs where they have some kind of authority - auxiliary cops, guards, etc. Zimmerman was a neighborhood watch volunteer. He has called 911 more than three dozen times and they were all false alarms. Zimmerman's neighborhood watch group was never registered and Zimmerman violated basic neighborhood guidelines which state to never carry a gun and never confront a suspect. He chased the kid even though 911 told him not to. This is miles away from self defense. Zimmerman probably sees himself as a protector when in fact, he is a vigilante.

Please sign the moveon petition.

[jillfoster]

Here's what I want to know. This was a rich, gated community. Why was it patrolled by volunteers, and not TRAINED security personnel? Cheap, conservative Floridians trying to save a little money, that's why. These same people hire illegals to cut their grass, and then bitch about paying too many taxes form their 5,000 square foot mansions.

[soulster]

Here's what I want to know. This was a rich, gated community. Why was it patrolled by volunteers, and not TRAINED security personnel? Cheap, conservative Floridians trying to save a little money, that's why. These same people hire illegals to cut their grass, and then bitch about paying too many taxes form their 5,000 square foot mansions.

Have you not ever heard of gated communities? They are all over, and they are not all wealthy neighborhoods. Many are integrated. Many residents have citizens who patrol their areas. It's one of the benefits of living in a gated community. Obviously, Black people live in these too.

What I see is that you have, in this case, a white wannabe cop who racially profiled a black kid and took matters into his own hands. He executed the teenager, lied about it, and the real cops refuse to do anything about it.

[P-Shark: The Revenge]

Have you not ever heard of gated communities? They are all over, and they are not all wealthy neighborhoods. Many are integrated. Many residents have citizens who patrol their areas. It's one of the benefits of living in a gated community. Obviously, Black people live in these too.

What I see is that you have, in this case, a white wannabe cop who racially profiled a black kid and took matters into his own hands. He executed the teenager, lied about it, and the real cops refuse to do anything about it.
White? Does he look white to you?




George Zimmerman, the man who murdered an unarmed 17 year old boy, has still not been arrestedhttp://www.blackyouthproject.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/george-zimmerman-289x400.jpg [[http://www.blackyouthproject.com/2012/03/george-zimmerman-the-man-who-murdered-an-unarmed-17-year-old-boy-has-still-not-been-arrested/george-zimmerman/)

[soulster]

White? Does he look white to you?




George Zimmerman, the man who murdered an unarmed 17 year old boy, has still not been arrestedhttp://www.blackyouthproject.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/george-zimmerman-289x400.jpg [[http://www.blackyouthproject.com/2012/03/george-zimmerman-the-man-who-murdered-an-unarmed-17-year-old-boy-has-still-not-been-arrested/george-zimmerman/)





Yes he does. He could be Cuban. With a name like "Zimmerman", he may very well be Jewish. But, that's beside the point. He profiled a teenager, stalked, confronted, and executed an unarmed Black teenager who was in no way a threat to him, or anyone else. The police refused to investigate, and closed the case. The man has not been charged. This stinks to high-heaven.

[soulster]

For your reading enjoyment:

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/17/2700249/shooter-of-trayvon-martin-a-habitual.html#storylink=cpy

http://colorlines.com/archives/2012/03/miami_man_who_shot_trayvon_martin_habitually_calle d_police_to_report_black_males.html

[milven]

White? Does he look white to you?


According to the link that Soulster posted above , he is Hispanic and from a multiracial background. He was part of an unsanctioned neighborhood watch that he started and probably was the only member. He was a wanna be cop that couldn't be, so he found another way to be authoritative. From all the 911 calls , he was a troublemaker. There seems to be one in every neighborhood. Doesn't matter what ethnic background the guy comes from. It matters what's in his head. I would guess , not much. There is a guy like this in every neighborhood. They criticize everyone but think they are above the law. They are un-liked in the neighborhood. When a new neighbor comes in, they are friendly to the new neighbor and it doesn't take long for the new neighbor to find out that the guy is nothing more than a troublemaker.

Thankfully, I woke up this morning to hear on the news that the FBI is investigating the incident.

[soulster]

Many Hispanics can be considered "white". many also put it down that way on the census, and even their birth certificate. It also never mentioned what his father is, just his mother. That is neither here nor there. The fact remains, he targeted young Black males. That is racist. The fact that he wasn't even a cop makes it worse. Hispanics can be racists too, you know. Blacks can be racists.

[motony]

this horrible situation happened down the street from my un-gated middle class neighborhood.The gated community of townhomes where this happened is NOT by any strech of the imagination a high class upper crust neighborhood....they sell NEW for $120,000 & even though they are gate access by vehicle many pedestrians can walk through by cutting through the apartment complex next door to it.The neighborhood is an equal mix of Hispanic,white & Afro-Americans, it also has been having an increase in break-ins & car burglaries .This has been made a racial situation by the news media, not by the affected family or Sanford citizens.There are many conflicting stories about who was calling for help ect by neighbors.I have to drive by that entrance every morning on my way to work & the amount of news media set up by the elementary school across the street is amazing & has been like this for 3 weeks. CNN is one of the last to jump in.From what I have gathered this Zimmerman guy let the power of "neighborhood watch" captain go to his head & ofcourse should not have had a gun while patrolling for neighborhood watch.He was also told by the Sanford Police [[he had called their business line Not 911)not to pursue the person as an officer was dispatched.Their are many conflicting stories with neighbors changing their stories & ofcourse the drama of the news media. 2 17 year olds were recently arrested in my neighborhood for break-ins...one was Black & one white[[not hispanic). This is a horrible tragedy & my thoughts & prayers are with Trayvon Martins family.

[MotownSteve]

I just got an email from MSNBC: "Florida state attorney says a grand jury will investigate the Trayvon Martin case." They should take a long hard look at the Sanford PD. This is not the first time they've engaged in questionable [[at best) behavior.

[soulster]

I guess I can go down to Florida, shoot somebody, and claim self-defense. They can't charge me under their "Stand your ground" law. :)

[marv2]

They played the remaining portion of the 911 tape on MSNBC today. Mr. Zimmerman referred to Trayvon Martin as "a f-ing ni*g*r"!

[soulster]

They played the remaining portion of the 911 tape on MSNBC today. Mr. Zimmerman referred to Trayvon Martin as "a f-ing ni*g*r"!

Yup. That confirms it. What else do you need? OK funky-fresh, now tell us it isn't racial. Now let's see you try to defend the guy!

[motony]

soulster, I hope you are not referring to me as i am NOT defending anyone. If that 911 call is correct, which that was not part of any calls played here yet, then he will be nailed for manslaughter & rightfully so.There were 2 witnesses in the local press that backed up Zimmermans account at the time, a young Black man that was walking his dog & a neighbor woman lookin out her window[[which I never saw indentified) I understand the neighbor woman has changed her story a couple of times.Ofcourse, I am hearing different stuff in the neighborhoods & different stuff on the TV news.

[soulster]

soulster, I hope you are not referring to me as i am NOT defending anyone.

Are you this person? http://soulfuldetroit.com/showthread.php?5429-Racist-murder-of-17-year-old-Trayvon-Martin-in-Florida&p=100229#post100229

[P-Shark: The Revenge]

Trayvon was carrying a dangerous weapon, a bag of skittles. What if he threw that in Zimmerman's eye?:rolleyes:

[P-Shark: The Revenge]

I guess I can go down to Florida, shoot somebody, and claim self-defense. They can't charge me under their "Stand your ground" law. :)Another bonehead law signed by a Bush

[soulster]

Another bonehead law signed by a Bush

Forced by the NRA.

[P-Shark: The Revenge]

^Neurotic Republican Assholes

[soulster]

I hate republiKKKans!

[Jerry Oz]

SMH. So I can walk up behind you, slap you on the back of your head, and when you turn around to confront me, I can shoot you dead because I was afraid for my life. There's no way the "stand your ground" principle [[such as it is) intends for someone to start a confrontation, escalate it to the standard for harassment [[chasing an innocent person for blocks), and then shoot someone to protect yourself. If this isn't resolved soon, from the description provided by motony, that neighborhood can go up in a blaze of gunfire at any moment. All it takes is indignant people from outside to come in to handle things "their way".

[marv2]

this horrible situation happened down the street from my un-gated middle class neighborhood.The gated community of townhomes where this happened is NOT by any strech of the imagination a high class upper crust neighborhood....they sell NEW for $120,000 & even though they are gate access by vehicle many pedestrians can walk through by cutting through the apartment complex next door to it.The neighborhood is an equal mix of Hispanic,white & Afro-Americans, it also has been having an increase in break-ins & car burglaries .This has been made a racial situation by the news media, not by the affected family or Sanford citizens.There are many conflicting stories about who was calling for help ect by neighbors.I have to drive by that entrance every morning on my way to work & the amount of news media set up by the elementary school across the street is amazing & has been like this for 3 weeks. CNN is one of the last to jump in.From what I have gathered this Zimmerman guy let the power of "neighborhood watch" captain go to his head & ofcourse should not have had a gun while patrolling for neighborhood watch.He was also told by the Sanford Police [[he had called their business line Not 911)not to pursue the person as an officer was dispatched.Their are many conflicting stories with neighbors changing their stories & ofcourse the drama of the news media. 2 17 year olds were recently arrested in my neighborhood for break-ins...one was Black & one white[[not hispanic). This is a horrible tragedy & my thoughts & prayers are with Trayvon Martins family.

Unfortunately it is indeed racial in this case and Zimmerman may be charge with a Hate Crime. They have him on tape referring to the late Trayvon Martin as a "f-ing N-word". This whole incident is fundementally wrong and no one on Earth can change my opinion on that regardless of how Sanford, Florida residents are viewing it. They can go to Hell as far as I am concern because it's their way of thinking that created an environment where something like this could happen. It's same thing as the murder last year by a black man by a group of Mississippi teenagers only because he was black. They beat him and then one of them ran him over in Ford F-250 pick up truck. It was just as inhumane as what Zimmerman did to Trayvon Martin. You would not treat and murder a dog like that.

[marv2]

Don't blame the news media when things like this happens. They didn't create the hate and they did not pull the trigger on a unarmed kid. What they did do and I half-heartedly applaud them, is shine a national spotlight on this horrific crime. Had the media not brought this murder to the attention of the country, it would no doubt gone unpunished and swept under the rug. Why blame the media for what this Zimmerman asshole did?

[MotownSteve]

Unfortunately it is indeed racial in this case and Zimmerman may be charge with a Hate Crime. They have him on tape referring to the late Trayvon Martin as a "f-ing N-word". This whole incident is fundementally wrong and no one on Earth can change my opinion on that regardless of how Sanford, Florida residents are viewing it. They can go to Hell as far as I am concern because it's their way of thinking that created an environment where something like this could happen. It's same thing as the murder last year by a black man by a group of Mississippi teenagers only because he was black. They beat him and then one of them ran him over in Ford F-250 pick up truck. It was just as inhumane as what Zimmerman did to Trayvon Martin. You would not treat and murder a dog like that.

Dollars to donuts if Zimmerman had murdered a dog he'd probably be in custody. Personally, I think the Sanford PD should arrest him ASAP and then go in the cell with him and throw the keys away. The way they've handled this borders on, if not is, criminal.

[jillfoster]

Have you not ever heard of gated communities? They are all over, and they are not all wealthy neighborhoods. Many are integrated. Many residents have citizens who patrol their areas. It's one of the benefits of living in a gated community. Obviously, Black people live in these too.

What I see is that you have, in this case, a white wannabe cop who racially profiled a black kid and took matters into his own hands. He executed the teenager, lied about it, and the real cops refuse to do anything about it.

Of course I have, soulster... just here here I live... gated communities are all rich and white.

[MotownSteve]

Joe Scarborough this morning: http://mojoe.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/21/10790499-scarborough-and-morning-joe-panel-on-shooting-of-trayvon-martin

[Roberta75]

Joe Scarborough this morning: http://mojoe.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/21/10790499-scarborough-and-morning-joe-panel-on-shooting-of-trayvon-martin

The sooner George Zimmerman is arrested for the cold and callous murder of Trayvon Martin better.

Roberta

[P-Shark: The Revenge]

Fox News outrage noticeably absent concerning Trayvon Martin killing

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Over the last week every major news network has covered the story of Trayvon Martin, but one network has covered the story noticeably less than others. CNN was the leader on the story of Martin’s killing from the start, mentioning the story 41 times [[http://thinkprogress.org/media/2012/03/19/447289/all-major-news-outlets-cover-trayvon-martin-tragedy-except-fox-news/) from February 26 to March 19. MSNBC mentioned the story 13 times over the same time period. Fox News, on the other hand, only mentioned the story once. Since March 19 the story has exploded on MSNBC and CNN, with the Martin story being featured on nearly every show. Fox News, however, still has put the story in the background, only warranting a mention once every few hours.
For those unfamiliar with the story, Martin was a 17 year-old African American student was shot by a self-appoint neighborhood watch captain named George Zimmerman. Zimmerman was white, and the 911 tapes from the incident suggest that race may have played a role in the killing. Martin was unarmed, and weighed nearly half as much as Zimmerman, yet Zimmerman was still not arrested for the killing because the police believe he acted in self-defense.

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[soulster]

Fox news: that network of racists
republiKKKans: the party of racists

[ms_m]

Fox news: that network of racists
republiKKKans: the party of racists

Do you seriously believe the entire Democratic party, the party of Dixiecrats and Blue Dogs, the former party of Jesse Helms, Strong Thurman and George Wallace is racist free?

Comments like yours fuel the flames of hate and negativity just as much as the atrocious acts of the other side.

Two wrongs will never make a right and until people start to understand they can't adopt the tactics of the side they rail against, the BS in this country and around the world will never change.

[Jerry Oz]

Do you seriously believe the entire Democratic party, the party of Dixiecrats and Blue Dogs, the former party of Jesse Helms, Strong Thurman and George Wallace is racist free?

Comments like yours fuel the flames of hate and negativity just as much as the atrocious acts of the other side.

Two wrongs will never make a right and until people start to understand they can't adopt the tactics of the side they rail against, the BS in this country and around the world will never change.
Ms. M: Tell me the last Democratic candidate who suggested that it was time for blacks to know that they won't have a better life by taking money away from other people. Oh, and how about a Democratic candidate who referred to the most powerful man in the free world as the "food stamp president" in addition to suggesting that black youth in urban centers be conscripted to do menial work such as janitorial service at a low enough wage that there'd be no need to pay prevailing union rates. There are, of course, racists in both parties, but the GOP is well aware that many of their base supporters hate black folks and they are openly courting that voting bloc.

[ms_m]

House Democrats Who Voted Against the Health Care Bill

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2009/11/08/us/politics/1108-health-care-vote.html

Specifics can vary from one person to the next but no group of people has a monopoly on right...

You or no one can name every single Republican... politician or not and know what they are thinking or believe anymore than I can name every Dem.

I'll even go out on a limb and say we both agree that racial profiling is wrong...so tell me what's right about PROFILING all Republicans and painting them with the same brush?

[Jerry Oz]

Fair enough. However, is this not the party that is voting lockstep on almost all issues in Washington right now? Is this not the party wherein nearly every representative signed a pledge to NEVER raise taxes? The party whose supporters have rallied with bigoted and racist sayings on signs? Oh, by the way, has any party leader stepped in to say that such vile imagery and language is not something that they want or need? They are painting each other with the same brush.

I submit that they are painting each other with the same brush for accountability, but if it makes you happy, I won't consider them the party of racists. It will remain my opinion, however, that racism may not be limited to the right, but voting racists are always welcome by the GOP.

[ms_m]

Jerry Oz, very few things in life are as simple as many people try to pretend they are and there are many reasons why things happen, many underlying situations and feelings....but Trevon Martin's mother said it best when she said, "this isn't a Black and White issue, it's a right and wrong issue." That's how the argument needs to be framed, that's how you get people to not only hear what you have to say but listen to what you have to say.

I see people whine and moan because I said something to them that "hurt their feelings" but they have no remorse what so ever calling another person a name that can hurt. Again, two wrongs will never make a right, you want change, then you have to be different than the person doing wrong...any other way and we continue to go round and round in circles never getting anywhere. ....but you if you truly believe calling every Repub a KKK will change the way Repubs think, or the things they do
....

do you... and wait for the change.

I'm out!

[soulster]

Do you seriously believe the entire Democratic party, the party of Dixiecrats and Blue Dogs, the former party of Jesse Helms, Strong Thurman and George Wallace is racist free?

Not at all! And, of course not every republiKKKan is a racist. But, that's the image, and as long as they seem to publically condone or tolerate it within their party, I will continue to paint them with such a broad stroke.


Comments like yours fuel the flames of hate and negativity just as much as the atrocious acts of the other side.

Allow me my right to be angry. My anger is not totally misplaced.


Two wrongs will never make a right and until people start to understand they can't adopt the tactics of the side they rail against, the BS in this country and around the world will never change.

So, what kind of positive tactics do you recommend will work?

There are certainly a lot of Democrat and liberal racists out there, but as far as their numbers are concerned, nothing can hold a candle to the current crop or republiKKKans/conservatives. I have talked to a few republicans who privately told me they are totally disgusted that the radicals have taken their party over, but they will never speak out about it publically because they hate Obama so much. The only ones that will change the republiKKKan party are the decent ones themselves, and it looks like, at this point, it ain't gonna happen anytime soon. They want to get back in power too bad.

[ms_m]

Reading comprehension has never been your strong suit.

Have a great evening Soulster.

[MotownSteve]

I just heard something I missed. The police in Sanford let Zimmerman go and take the weapon with him. No testing done. The officers responsible for that should, at the very least, be relieved of duty. At most, arrest for willfully interfering with an investigation.

[soulster]

Reading comprehension has never been your strong suit.

Have a great evening Soulster.

What a pompous, arrogant b____! Consider yourself back on my ignore list. Did you comprehend that?

[soulster]

I just heard something I missed. The police in Sanford let Zimmerman go and take the weapon with him. No testing done. The officers responsible for that should, at the very least, be relieved of duty. At most, arrest for willfully interfering with an investigation.

Oh yeah! The drug-tested the slain youth, but did nothing to the shooter. This one of the main reasons the police are under fire. They did shoddy investigating.

[ms_m]

HAHAHAHA....I prefer MS. BITCH...but whatever floats your boat....LOL...and once again, have a great evening Soulster. LOL

[Jerry Oz]

Fox News host Geraldo Rivera blames Trayvon's parents for letting him wear a hoodie. I guess he figures white people are scared of black people wearing hoods. SMH.

Fox News host Geraldo Rivera thinks he knows who or what is to blame for the slaying of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin: the hoodie did it.

Appearing on Fox News early Friday morning, Rivera conceded that George Zimmerman, the neighborhood watch captain who shot Martin, should be investigated, but he urged black and Latino parents to not allow their children to wear hooded sweatshirts.
"I think the hoodie is as much responsible for Trayvon Martin's death as George Zimmerman was," the host ranted. "You have to recognize that this whole stylizing yourself as a gangsta -- you're going to be a gangsta wannabe, well people are going to perceive you as a menace. That's what happens. It is an instant, reflexive action."
Rivera compared the situation to NPR firing Fox News contributor Juan Williams [[http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=130712737) for saying he was scared of Muslims at the airport because of the way they dressed.
"That's an automatic reflex," Rivera explained. "When you see a black or Latino youngster, particularly on the street, you walk to the other side of the street. You try to avoid that confrontation. Trayvon Martin, God bless him. He's an innocent kid, a wonderful kid, a box of Skittles in his hand, he didn't deserve to die, but I'll bet you money if he didn't have that hoodie on, that nutty neighborhood watch guy wouldn't have responded in that violent and aggressive way."
Fox & Friends co-host Steve Doocy noted that New Yorkers on Wednesday had held [[http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/03/22/million-hoodie-march-in-new-york-rallies-support-for-trayvon-martin/) a "Million Hoodie March" in support of Martin.
"You cannot rehabilitate the hoodie," Rivera insisted. "I understand that the reaction might be overzealous or even irrational in some extent. You are not going to rehabilitate the hoodie. Stop wearing it!"
"There are some things that are almost inevitable. I'm not suggesting that Trayvon Martin had any kind of weapon or anything. He wore an outfit that allowed someone to respond in this irrational, overzealous way. And if he had been dressed more appropriately -- I think unless it is raining out or you are at a track meet, leave the hoodie home."
"Perception is reality," guest co-host Juliet Huddy agreed.
In fact, Zimmerman told the 911 dispatcher [[http://www.orlandosentinel.com/videogallery/68871920/News/George-Zimmerman-911-call-reporting-Trayvon-Martin) that it was raining as he was pursuing Martin.
"This guy looks like he's up to no good or he's on drugs or something," the neighborhood watch enthusiast said. "It's raining and he's just walking around, looking about. ... These a**holes always get away."
UPDATE: Even Geraldo's kid is embarrassed by his "blame the victim" anti-hoodie stance [[http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/entries/geraldo-my-own-son-is-ashamed-of-my):

How bad is the backlash against Geraldo Rivera for blaming Trayvon Martin's shooting death on his choice of clothing? His own son is piling on.
"My own son just wrote to say he's ashamed of my position re hoodies [sic]," Rivera tweeted on Friday. "Still I feel parents must do whatever they can to keep their kids safe." [..] "It's not blaming the victim Its common sense-look like a gangsta&some armed schmuck will take you at your word," he added.

[MotownSteve]

Leave to fix news. Pardon me, faux news.

[144man]

That's like saying women who wear low-cut dresses can expect to get raped.

[soulster]

The Geraldo Rivera/Sean Hannity far-right mental illness on Faux news:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/46840893#46840893

[jillfoster]

Newt is putting his foot in his mouth as usual :

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/23/newt-gingrich-trayvon-martin-barack-obama_n_1376659.html?1332554093

[MotownSteve]

The Geraldo Rivera/Sean Hannity far-right mental illness on Faux news:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/46840893#46840893

Hi soulster,
Thanks for the clip. Very informative. Why the right has to put a spin on this baffles me. The moment Zimmerman got out of his vehicle he became 100% responsible for what followed. From where I sit, by NJ Law he would be guilty of 2nd Degree Murder.

[jillfoster]

Sorry you guys... but Geraldo is exactly right. For 15 years now, youth have been dressing like criminals because they think it's "cool". and furthermore, you can probably bet this boy had his pants on the ground, so walking around with your hand in the waistband to hold them up, some people are gonna think your'e going for a gun. you absolutely SHOULD only be judged on your actions, but a person don't need to tempt fate, either. It's not his or his parents' fault as much as it is the fault of society and black culture for not rejecting the concept of children being allowed to dress like criminals, and have it be accepted. And Al sharpton wasn't being generous coming down there when his mother just died... he was wantin to be in front of the TV cameras. Jesse Jackson could have handled that rally. Don't get me wrong, Zimmerman was obviously wrong from what i've heard so far. But I don't believe in doing, saying, and wearing things that will set off unstable people.

[144man]

Sorry you guys... but Geraldo is exactly right. For 15 years now, youth have been dressing like criminals because they think it's "cool". and furthermore, you can probably bet this boy had his pants on the ground, so walking around with your hand in the waistband to hold them up, some people are gonna think your'e going for a gun. you absolutely SHOULD only be judged on your actions, but a person don't need to tempt fate, either. It's not his or his parents' fault as much as it is the fault of society and black culture for not rejecting the concept of children being allowed to dress like criminals, and have it be accepted. And Al sharpton wasn't being generous coming down there when his mother just died... he was wantin to be in front of the TV cameras. Jesse Jackson could have handled that rally. Don't get me wrong, Zimmerman was obviously wrong from what i've heard so far. But I don't believe in doing, saying, and wearing things that will set off unstable people.

You're wrong, wrong, wrong. With that way of thinking, you're going to have to wear a long coat down to your ankles everytime you go out in case you attract a rapist.

[jillfoster]

You're wrong, wrong, wrong. With that way of thinking, you're going to have to wear a long coat down to your ankles everytime you go out in case you attract a rapist.

I'm not wrong.what happens IS wrong! But we got to deal with reality, and what IS, not what should be. The rape thing is apples and oranges. I don't think you'd be raped for wearing a low cut dress...but some man might come up to you and ask how much you charge.

[Jerry Oz]

I'm not wrong.what happens IS wrong! But we got to deal with reality, and what IS, not what should be. The rape thing is apples and oranges. I don't think you'd be raped for wearing a low cut dress...but some man might come up to you and ask how much you charge.

This is asinine [[in my opinion, you're entitled to your own). This is the same reasoning that permits cops to pull over black men driving expensive new cars because a lot of crooks blow their loot on expensive vehicles. So, we should all wear business suits and drive around in 1975 Novas to show that we aren't crooks? Whatever.

Forget the fact that probably 99% of the kids sporting this look aren't crooks, so we should be afraid of all for the actions of a few. Regardless, it's good to know that we live in a society where a black kid is considered complicit in his own murder by basically walking around while being black.

Oh, and men have been acquitted of rape in instances where women dressed "too provocatively", so you're in that fool's chorus to suggest that someone cannot control his/her actions based upon his snap judgments based upon appearance. Congratulations.

[ms_m]

Jillfoster, walking up to a woman and asking her how much they charge because they are dressed provocatively and pulling out a gun and shooting them for the same reason, is like night and day. Your logic is terribly flawed.

Yes, people are judged based on the way they look, what they wear etc. Yes that is reality but that reality doesn't dictate they should be harmed because of it.

If men with large ugly mustaches suddenly go on a looting spree, would it be ok to shoot Rivera because he has a large ugly mustache?

Rivera was wrong as two left shoes and promoting an idea or "opinion" that you suddenly have to dress a certain way to keep from being shot is not only detrimental to our society but ignorant.

[Jerry Oz]

Jillfoster, walking up to a woman and asking her how much they charge because they are dressed provocatively and pulling out a gun and shooting them for the same reason, is like night and day. Your logic is terribly flawed.

Yes, people are judged based on the way they look, what they wear etc. Yes that is reality but that reality doesn't dictate they should be harmed because of it.

If men with large ugly mustaches suddenly go on a looting spree, would it be ok to shoot Rivera because he has a large ugly mustache?

Rivera was wrong as two left shoes and promoting an idea or "opinion" that you suddenly have to dress a certain way to keep from being shot is not only detrimental to our society but ignorant.
I agree 100%. This incident has touched a nerve with many and I have a difficult time putting my anger into positive context. I am absolutely shocked and amazed that a young man wearing a hood in the rain is partially responsible for being chased and murdered. I guess we should provide pretty yellow rain slickers to our "good" kids so people can't confuse them with thugs that have nothing in common with them other than brown skin.

[ms_m]

Jerry Oz, you're correct this incident has touched a nerve but putting emotions in check is exactly what is called for. Too many people in this country [[and around the world) are reacting and NOT THINKING. If Zimmerman had taken the time to THINK as oppose to react based on some emotion, whatever that emotion was, it's very likely the young man would still be alive today.

Politicians and the media like to push buttons and both groups are doing an excellent job in getting folks to react as oppose to thinking ...why....because if people start THINKING, many of these politicians and members of the media will cease to be relevant. We have to stop feeding into the BS....if we don't, we have no one but ourselves to blame for the continuation of all the BS.

[Jerry Oz]

Personally, I think the reaction has been very much reasoned. I'm not hearing the rhetoric that I expected when this was first developing. I honestly expected some wannabe Black Panthers to go down to start their own "neighborhood watch". Of course, that would be about the time that the Klan decided to exercise their right to assemble and everything would blow up.

Unfortunately, the failure of the police to take even the most fundamental steps of a homicide case [[full interview of the shooter, ballistics testing, full canvas of the area for eyewitnesses, etc.) will lead any conclusion to be based not on facts but what people believe actually happened. I can see Zimmerman walking due to the lack of a competent investigation and that may be tantamount to what happened in Simi Valley. That's a shame because a first year assistant prosecutor should be able to put this case together for the DA.

[ms_m]

...but here is the problem, if Zimmerman or his lawyers make the same claim...."his reaction was reasoned", you and everyone else would be ready to hang him from the nearest tree.

I agree the police should have arrested the man but as much as Republican politicians are trying to run from that damn stand your ground law, the fact is, the police were probably following that damn law to the letter. If you do a cursory google search you'll find it's been happening in Fla and many other states that have adopted this law or laws that are similar and people are getting away with murder left and right.

We spend way too much time reacting to news as oppose to seeing the things that are happening on the ground that never get reported. Here in NC we have a similar law and many of us tried to fight it but we couldn't get enough people to get involved to take it seriously. Yet, if something happens here like in Fla, you best believe the same people who couldn't be bothered, will be marching up and down the streets demanding justice. Something is wrong with that picture Jerry Oz. Something is terribly wrong.

[MotownSteve]

Sorry you guys... but Geraldo is exactly right. For 15 years now, youth have been dressing like criminals because they think it's "cool". and furthermore, you can probably bet this boy had his pants on the ground, so walking around with your hand in the waistband to hold them up, some people are gonna think your'e going for a gun. you absolutely SHOULD only be judged on your actions, but a person don't need to tempt fate, either. It's not his or his parents' fault as much as it is the fault of society and black culture for not rejecting the concept of children being allowed to dress like criminals, and have it be accepted. And Al sharpton wasn't being generous coming down there when his mother just died... he was wantin to be in front of the TV cameras. Jesse Jackson could have handled that rally. Don't get me wrong, Zimmerman was obviously wrong from what i've heard so far. But I don't believe in doing, saying, and wearing things that will set off unstable people.

Hi jillfoster,
Are the "children being allowed to dress like criminals," or are the criminal dressing like the children? Jerry Oz pointed out that 99% of people sporting that look are not criminals. I could go on about how criminals try to look like the rest of us but I'll spare everyone a dissertation.

[soulster]

So, Jillfoster, anyone who puts on a hoodie looks like a gangsta??? That is ridiculous! It doesn't matter how the kid was dressed, he should not have been hunted down like a dog and shot.

What you and Mr. Rivera have said is basically that young people, and people of color should dress to make bigots and racists comfortable. Well, freedom doesn't work like that! people should be able to wear what they want and not have to worry about some racist thug hunting them down for it.

What you and Rivera are doing is making excuses, blaming the victim, and letting a killer off the hook.

[splanky]

Whenever we have a problem with a particular group of people we stereotype them and we attribute to them many things that in fact many, often most other people can be said to also do, enjoy or participate in. We associate things with one race, religion or even sex that occurs elsewhere though we otherwise overlook it. The reality is white people
wear hoodies too. White peoples wear baseball caps backwards, blast hip-hop from their cars, and yes there are white
youth wearing their pants on the ground. That is a style I never liked but does that give me the right to stalk and kill them? Do we only ban blacks and hispanics from wearing certain clothes like hoodies even though we know anyone can
buy them in Kmart and 2) they were not invented for black criminals. Geraldo is an idiot and anyone who follows his
snot-logic is deluding themselves.But then, so many have been following him and slimeballs like Newtered Gangrene for years, it's no surprise this country is going the mess it is right now...

[P-Shark: The Revenge]

Geraldo's new single "BLAME IT ON THE HOODIE"
Don't blame it on Zimmerman
Don't blame it on NRA
Don't Blame it on Jeb Bush
Blame it on the Hoodie

[smark21]

Sorry you guys... but Geraldo is exactly right. For 15 years now, youth have been dressing like criminals because they think it's "cool". and furthermore, you can probably bet this boy had his pants on the ground, so walking around with your hand in the waistband to hold them up, some people are gonna think your'e going for a gun. you absolutely SHOULD only be judged on your actions, but a person don't need to tempt fate, either. It's not his or his parents' fault as much as it is the fault of society and black culture for not rejecting the concept of children being allowed to dress like criminals, and have it be accepted. And Al sharpton wasn't being generous coming down there when his mother just died... he was wantin to be in front of the TV cameras. Jesse Jackson could have handled that rally. Don't get me wrong, Zimmerman was obviously wrong from what i've heard so far. But I don't believe in doing, saying, and wearing things that will set off unstable people.

This is not the first time Jill Foster aka David Smothers has made explosive comments about race. I remember on Yahoo he called Susaye Green a “baboon” and a “n****r” because Susaye insisted she sang on all songs on High Energy.

I wear hoodies on weekends, but I’ve never been hunted down by a gun crazy self appointed neighborhood watch “leader”. Maybe because I’m white and Iive in a racist society where I have privilege when it comes to matters of racial profiling?

[soulster]

This is not the first time Jill Foster aka David Smothers has made explosive comments about race. I remember on Yahoo he called Susaye Green a “baboon” and a “n****r” because Susaye insisted she sang on all songs on High Energy.


Thank you for letting us know that! I will now put Jillfoster on my ignore list too. I have no interest in conversing with religious nuts, self-righteous narcissists, or racists.

[144man]

I worry about putting people on Ignore. It could mean that they make points that nobody counters, and that they end up winning arguments by default.

[soulster]

I worry about putting people on Ignore. It could mean that they make points that nobody counters, and that they end up winning arguments by default.

What is the sound of one hand clapping?

[jillfoster]

This is not the first time Jill Foster aka David Smothers has made explosive comments about race. I remember on Yahoo he called Susaye Green a “baboon” and a “n****r” because Susaye insisted she sang on all songs on High Energy.

I wear hoodies on weekends, but I’ve never been hunted down by a gun crazy self appointed neighborhood watch “leader”. Maybe because I’m white and Iive in a racist society where I have privilege when it comes to matters of racial profiling?

What the fuck are you talking about? You need to get a grip. Some stalker bitch tried to make it LOOK like I said such things [[12 years ago, I might add), but I never did. You all are totally misunderstanding what I'm saying. I said that Zimmerman was totally wrong, or did you stop reading before you got to that part? It wasn't what CAUSED it, but it was a contributing factor. The culture of rap and thuggery has done a great deal to undermine the civil rights movement, and that's why everyone is so defensive about it, because they damn well know it's true. I said before, earlier in the thread, the TRUE fault lies with the cheap ass Homes Association, not hiring a TRAINED security guard, and relying on hot headed dumbshits to do their security. Smark, since you are so sure I'm wrong, why don't you put on a chiffon gown and walk down main street of any small town in Mississippi, and see what reaction you get?? That's all I'm sayin. The world is WRONG for being this way... do I need to repeat it? WRONG!!! WRONG!!!! WRONG!!!!!! But it's reality, people ought to deal with what IS, and then work to change things to the way they SHOULD BE.

[jillfoster]

Thank you for letting us know that! I will now put Jillfoster on my ignore list too. I have no interest in conversing with religious nuts, self-righteous narcissists, or racists.

It's just too damn bad that you would put me on ignore after youv'e been reading my posts for how long? Because some asshole makes an unfounded accusation?

[Jerry Oz]

Okay, Geraldo.

[Roberta75]

While I don’t agree with the author’s cussing, I agree 100% with everything else they wrote

Roberta


Don’t Be Threatening’: Geraldo Rivera’s Impossible Advice


The internet was abuzz with outrage yesterday after comments national joke Geraldo Rivera made on Fox & Friends. In response to the murder of Trayvon Martin, he reflected, "I think the hoodie is as much responsible for Trayvon Martin's death as George Zimmerman was." The angry response he unleashed was warranted, but it's worth taking a look at what Geraldo was trying to say — and why he's full of shit.
I was reminded of a series of sexual assaults that occurred on the Berkeley campus in 2009: a man followed women home from late-night parties and attempted to rape them with his finger. His targets were exclusively women in short skirts, which led the campus police department to suggest that women avoid wearing those skirts to parties until the rapist was caught. Many werehorrified — the police response sounded a lot like victim-blaming. But there was a level of practicality to it that goes beyond the typical asshole response to rape, "Did you see what she was wearing?" This predator was targeting women wearing a specific piece of clothing, and not wearing short skirts for a period of time was a form of protection.

There's a key difference between what Geraldo said and what the Berkeley campus police said. There is no serial killer targeting men of color in hoodies, the way Berkeley's serial rapist was specifically focusing on short skirts. Both responses might seem problematic, but only Geraldo's devolves into actually blaming the victim. Targeting the hoodie is just a roundabout way of pinning some blame on Trayvon Martin, who chose what to wear that night. Besides, what he's really saying is, "Don't dress like a 'gangsta' if you don't want to be treated like one." Or as he tweeted yesterday, "Its not blaming the victim Its common sense-look like a gangsta&some armed schmuck will take you at your word."

It is blaming the victim, but that's been argued to death. I'm more interested in the meaning behind Geraldo's words, which in my mind boils down to a warning: Do not act in a way other people might find threatening. Except that's a complete impossibility — the feeling of being threatened is subjective. Geraldo's implication is that racist white men will assume black men in hoodies are out to get them, and he's probably right. But by that same logic, he should be telling white men to tone down their whiteness around black people. If a white man wearing an NRA shirt got shot by a black man, would Geraldo blame the shirt? Maybe it was self-defense. The black man who shot him could have assumed he was another George Zimmerman.

Ignorant people are irrationally threatened by so much of the world around them; it would be impossible to go through life conforming to some sort of neutral, non-threatening ideal. Think of Matthew Shepard, who was murdered in 1998 for being gay. The basis of homophobia is fear: a fear of being hit on by a gay man, of femininity, of being perceived as gay by those around you. Geraldo's message to youths of color is to tone it down. Take whatever it is about your cultural identity that scares others and get rid of it. Following that argument, should gay men act less "faggoty"? If we're going to blame Trayvon's hoodie for Zimmerman's violence, we could also blame Shepard's "gay appearance" for his murder.

The "common sense" Geraldo speaks of is nonsense. To a racist asshole, it's "common sense" that black men are more dangerous. To a homophobic tool, all gay men are out to recruit your children, and to a frightening number of misogynists, women who dress "slutty" deserve to be raped. Barring mandatory uniforms for every person in this country, there is no "common sense" way to dress or talk or act. There will always be someone threatened by you, and that responsibility falls on them — and on law enforcement, whose job is to make sure no one turns a perceived threat into a stupid, fatal mistake.

[Jerry Oz]

Shaking my head. The kid could have had dreadlocks and a tuxedo and Geraldo would have been pointing to the hair and saying that he should have cut it. If not his hair, it would an earring. Or a gold tooth. Or maybe a tattoo.

How long before I'm profiled because I don't wear any of the above and some cop thinks that is "suspicious"?

[ms_m]

Jillfoster I think you are wrong. You are feeding the fears of the very people you mocked in the other thread. That’s dangerous and irresponsible imo and you need to be more careful about promoting the idea that music or clothing is responsible for some fool picking up a gun and blowing another human being away, presumably without cause….wearing a hoodie is not cause.

To piggyback on something Steve said, criminals [[including murders) wear all types of clothing including 1000 dollar suits. Should we start blowing away everyone wearing 1000 dollar suits? You’re being extremely short sighted in your thinking. The long term ramifications of the idea you’re pushing is something you need to seriously examine.

[marv2]

Thank you for letting us know that! I will now put Jillfoster on my ignore list too. I have no interest in conversing with religious nuts, self-righteous narcissists, or racists.

Whoa.....! Jillfoster is not a racist! That made me chuckle when I read that LOL! I was around back in those days when people were pulling all kinds of nasty tricks to discredit others that they did not agree with. It's been done to me. Jill is cool which can cause problems for the "un-cool" in and of itself!

Now back to the topic of discussion here. I do not agree with what Geraldo Rivera is saying about the wearing of a hoodie. I do acknowledge that you are VERY much judged by your appearance and what you are wearing in this country. Back when I had longer hair, I use to get the "slick" comments. I can walk into a bank on a Tues afternoon in my customary suit & tie for work and be treated respectfully. I can walk into that same bank on a Saturday morning in sweats, unshaven and in a ballcap and have to almost look or someone to wait on me, to provide service! I do believe we should have the freedom to dress how ever we like and drive wherever we want. I have been stopped when driving a new car. I have been followed out of certain "off limits" neighborhoods after visiting friends there. It is a sickness in this country.

[jillfoster]

Jillfoster I think you are wrong. You are feeding the fears of the very people you mocked in the other thread. That’s dangerous and irresponsible imo and you need to be more careful about promoting the idea that music or clothing is responsible for some fool picking up a gun and blowing another human being away, presumably without cause….wearing a hoodie is not cause.

To piggyback on something Steve said, criminals [[including murders) wear all types of clothing including 1000 dollar suits. Should we start blowing away everyone wearing 1000 dollar suits? You’re being extremely short sighted in your thinking. The long term ramifications of the idea you’re pushing is something you need to seriously examine.

Ms. M...it's not my intention to feed the fears, simply for people to be WARY of the REALITY. If people think Tupac and Shug Knight are such great role models as opposed to Gladys Knight and Stevie Wonder, then I guessthere ain't nothin I can do about that. But the rap culture has driven a wedge between racial relations at a crucial point in history when things were truly changing at a record pace. It set the movement back by promotiong violence, drugs, crime, and misogyny. After reading Geraldo's transcript... he said "Just as much to blame". I would not go that far. My opinion is it was a "factor" in what happened. And thanks, Marv...emotions were hot and heavy back then, and alot of people with too much time on their hands engaged in alot of dirty tricks, some are still doing it. Me and Susaye did have disagreements, but both of us have moved on, and now treat each other with politeness and civility, and that is the way it should be.

[ms_m]

Jill Foster violence is a part of our culture, be it in music movies,television, books, etc. WHY?.... because there is enough of an interest for promoters to push this stuff.

I'm not a fan of most rap music and definitely not a fan of gang mentality be it Black gangs, Hispanics gangs, Russian gangs, etc. but I 'm not ready to blame them for the actions of another human being who should have the good sense to choose right from wrong. Now if they don't have goods sense, we're talking a whole other issue but agreeing with Rivera is an extremist attitude...and whether it's your intentions or not you're fanning the flames of that attitude.

[jillfoster]

Jill Foster violence is a part of our culture, be it in music movies,television, books, etc. WHY?.... because there is enough of an interest for promoters to push this stuff.

I'm not a fan of most rap music and definitely not a fan of gang mentality be it Black gangs, Hispanics gangs, Russian gangs, etc. but I 'm not ready to blame them for the actions of another human being who should have the good sense to choose right from wrong. Now if they don't have goods sense, we're talking a whole other issue but agreeing with Rivera is an extremist attitude...and whether it's your intentions or not you're fanning the flames of that attitude.

I understand what your'e saying... this guy may NOT have had good sense. I wouldn't be surprised a bit if a mental evaluation reveals some major issues.

[Roberta75]

I understand what your'e saying... this guy may NOT have had good sense. I wouldn't be surprised a bit if a mental evaluation reveals some major issues.

There's no need for any evaluation IMO. Zimmerman is a trigger happy racist.

Roberta

[jillfoster]

There's no need for any evaluation IMO. Zimmerman is a trigger happy racist.

Roberta

You don't think he's off his rocker, Roberta?

[ms_m]

I wasn't suggesting Zimmerman didn't have good sense, I don't know anything about the man other than what I've read and I've heard good as well as bad.

Personally, I think we need to concentrate more on the law that may have contributed to all of this. Whether Zimmerman is a racist or not, whether kids should wear hoodies or listen to certain types of music shouldn't be the dominant issue. After all my years on this earth, talking about who is and who isn't a racist hasn't changed a damn thing. We can't legislate away hate but we need to pay more attention to the things that ARE being legislated....that's something we can change if we are proactive as oppose to reactive.

[jillfoster]

I wasn't suggesting Zimmerman didn't have good sense, I don't know anything about the man other than what I've read and I've heard good as well as bad.

Personally, I think we need to concentrate more on the law that may have contributed to all of this. Whether Zimmerman is a racist or not, whether kids should wear hoodies or listen to certain types of music shouldn't be the dominant issue. After all my years on this earth, talking about who is and who isn't a racist hasn't changed a damn thing. We can't legislate away hate but we need to pay more attention to the things that ARE being legislated....that's something we can change if we are proactive as oppose to reactive.

And that is one hell of a good point. I personally have big problem with this "Stand your ground" law. I really SUPPORT the law called the "Castle doctrine"... but that applies when you are in your own home. The "Stand you ground" hooey is far too broad, and gives license to people who are mentally unbalanced. And Ms. M... there are alot of people walking around with mental illness that is undiagnosed, just sayin... anyone who calls 911 that many times throws up red flags for me, like paranoid schizophrenia, etc..

[ms_m]

...or, extremely over zealous....again, I don't know the mental state of Zimmerman, I can assume all kinds of things based on what he's done but to say for certain what his problem is, I'm not even going to try and speculate at this point.

The other day I was telling a friend about someone I knew a long time ago. She joined the police academy and went through all the training. The last test had to do with some kind of simulation about distinguishing the bad guys from the good.....in the simulation she emptied her revolver on the good guys...not a good thing to do and she ended up sitting at a desk as oppose to having a revolver on the street. This was years ago and I don't know what happened to her but I do know up until that point I thought she was quite sane and rational. Thank goodness it was only a simulation but this is someone I never would think would be irrational but yet...she showed irrational behavior. Zimmerman's state of mind is for a judge and jury to decide ....IF...we ever get to that point and we all should get involved to help it get to that point but we need to stay focus and stop letting the BS sidetrack us. As the saying goes, concentrate on the things we can change, not the things we can't. That's how I see it but people will do, what people will do....shrugs

Goodnight JillFoster, I'm out.

[Roberta75]

You don't think he's off his rocker, Roberta?

I don't. I think he's a racist, trigger happy, vigilante who should be in put jail for life and that "Stand Your Ground Law" should be overturned immediately.

It makes me thank the good Lord that I don't live in Florida.

Roberta

[soulster]

The bastard never even tried to help Martin after he shot him. So much for Sean Hannity's outrageous "accidental shooting" theory. It also blows away the "self-defense" argument.

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/25/10854229-witness-zimmerman-never-tried-to-help-trayvon-martin

[soulster]

Whoa.....! Jillfoster is not a racist!

I never said he/she was. I was simply saying that people who fit any of the descriptions are a waste of time for me to engage in. One of them thinks she is so egomaniacal that she can't handle it if anyone dares to disagree with her.

[MotownSteve]

The bastard never even tried to help Martin after he shot him. So much for Sean Hannity's outrageous "accidental shooting" theory. It also blows away the "self-defense" argument.

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/25/10854229-witness-zimmerman-never-tried-to-help-trayvon-martin

Of course he panicked and did not know what to do. And if you believe that, I have bridge you can buy.

[P-Shark: The Revenge]

http://images.politico.com/global/2012/03/120323_geraldo2_ap_328.jpg'I’m telling you that my mission is to save kids’ lives in the real world,' Rivera said | AP Photo
Close



By MJ LEE [[http://www.politico.com/reporters/MJLee.html) | 3/23/12 1:51 PM EDT

Geraldo Rivera said his son Gabriel is “ashamed” of Rivera’s controversial comments about Trayvon Martin and his hoodie from earlier in the day, the Fox News host admitted to POLITICO.
“Gabriel broke my heart. He’s my oldest, 32, and he just told me that for the first time in his life he’s ashamed of what I wrote on [Fox News Latino],” Rivera said in an email.
Continue Reading [[http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0312/74403.html#continue)Text Size

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Rivera touched off a media firestorm when he said on “Fox & Friends” and his blog that Martin — who was shot and killed by George Zimmerman, a neighborhood watch captain last month — wouldn’t have been attacked [[http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0312/74392.html) if he had not been wearing a hoodie.
“I am urging the parents of black and Latino youngsters particularly to not let their children go out wearing hoodies,” the Fox News host said. “I think the hoodie is as much responsible for Trayvon Martin’s death as George Zimmerman was.”
In his long monologue on the air, Rivera had mentioned his other son, 24-year-old Cruz. “When you see a kid walking down the street, particularly a dark-skinned kid like my son Cruz, who I constantly yelled at when he was going out wearing a damn hoodie or those pants around his ankles,” he said, before penning an article that appeared on the Fox News Latino website soon after.
In his email to POLITICO, Rivera said that he tried his best to convey to Gabriel where he was coming from.
“I wrote him, and I’m telling you that my mission is to save kids’ lives in the real world,” the Fox News host said. “We can bluster and posture all day long about the injustice of it all, but despite what Roland Martin or even my son Gabriel Miguel Rivera says, every hoodie should come with a warning like cigarettes, ‘caution wearing this could get you killed.’”
But Gabriel didn’t respond well to his father’s explanation.
“Gabriel wrote back to say I’ve gone viral for all the wrong reasons,” Rivera wrote in another email, with an unhappy face icon at the end of the sentence.
But despite his son’s reaction [[Cruz, unlike his older brother, isn’t mad at him about the comments, Rivera said), the TV and radio personality said he has no intention of taking back what he said. “No I don’t retract a word of it because I’m concerned with saving kids’ lives.” he said.

[P-Shark: The Revenge]

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FOX News Irresponsibly Selling Dangerous HoodiesI can't believe FOX News is still selling these.[/URL] posted about 2 days ago
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"Gang paraphernalia"
Via: shop.foxnews.com [[http://shop.foxnews.com/product/Recently-Viewed/0/FOX060029.aspx)

UPDATE: It looks FOX News has pulled their insanely dangerous sweatshirt! The world is a safer place! [[http://shop.foxnews.com/_ShopHandler.aspx?_token=C6UEkzp6Rn/Qm85x9Fjv5/z1TnpkQnOAbIlRhSkb/064VLWCJpBMP3Cp/Bz+1SUU6Q8+ld4imFRG5ZJTG84kCWA5C7fHWxJkwbsHl5Chfgy oLkhVMf9/lCUTPtCzltzhwrd10Yiuj1tY0f83xQGxxqYkDvTNlc782Jq0La HrvSgr3pXiSiKmwsKw5NUMvsiyXInFAMSUMfKZLEy+PE0ewp5s TWekJo8DhtVQVihW5W9OrAbx5QDgCveg/mxfSEFR)

[[http://www.buzzfeed.com/ryanhatesthis/fox-news-irresponsibly-selling-dangerous-hoodies) [[http://www.buzzfeed.com/ryanhatesthis/fox-news-irresponsibly-selling-dangerous-hoodies)[URL="http://www.buzzfeed.com/ryanhatesthis/fox-news-irresponsibly-selling-dangerous-hoodies"]
http://s3-ec.buzzfed.com/static/enhanced/terminal05/2012/3/23/16/enhanced-buzz-20596-1332533024-107.jpg

[Jerry Oz]

You will note that Geraldo said black and latino youth shouldn't wear hoodies. It's all good with him if a caucasion fellow does so. With that being said, if I see a brother wearing a Fox Network hoodie, I will have to stifle the impulse to smack him, myself.

[jillfoster]

Alot of people of the older generation are sick and tired of everything they fought for, and marched for, and sometimes died for to just be thrown away like a used tampon because today's youth want to act like thugs, or they can STILL be good kids, but want to LOOK like thugs and act tough. It is a big problem, and nobody want to step up and admit it, theyr'e all a bunch of pussies who want to shift the blame to everyone else. But SOME people want to take responsibility, and get the community to straighten up and fly right

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Gh3_e3mDQ8

[ms_m]

JillFoster, two things.....I have always found it annoying when a White person trouts out Bill Cosby to highlight their POV....I'm not impressed with a Black person doing it either. He's just one Black man, with one opinion...he's not the soul-keeper of Black thought.....two....I have a suggestion, not a demand but a simple suggestion.

There are groups and organizations all over the country working together
to make sure the pressure and spotlight stays on this case in order to
investigate the law, the Sandford Police Dept and to see Zimerman behind bars
and stand trial….why not place your energy and resources on that as oppose
to trying to dictate what people should wear….and on a side note, I thought about
you today as I put on my hoodie and walked out the house to do errands…sue
me. LOL...

but...if you want to focus on hoodies, music and all that jazz...go right ahead...don't see how it will bring justice to Trevon, but do what you gotta do.

[jillfoster]

No, Ms. M... it won't bring justice to him. Absolutely not. but if one voice becomes another, then another... that is how change is affected, and maybe another boy in the future will not have his life cut short by some nutball. Having said that, that Stand your ground law may be the thing that lets Zimmerman walk... but tell me, if that law didn't exist, do you think Zimmerman would not have fired on the boy? I think he still would have. I just don't want the "Castle doctrine" to be thrown out in a knee jerk reaction to this. People tend to get all emotional and throw the baby out with the bathwater. BTW... do you have a person that you consider to be the soul-keeper of black thought?

[ms_m]

JillFoster, all to often young Black men are gunned down because their Black not because they are wearing a hoodie...Mr Cosby's son was wearing a rolex watch at the time of his murder....time to speak out against Rolex watches too.

[ms_m]

BTW.. We all have out beliefs and thoughts, I can agree, I can disagree but I speak for me.

[jillfoster]

JillFoster, all to often young Black men are gunned down because their Black not because they are wearing a hoodie...Mr Cosby's son was wearing a rolex watch at the time of his murder....time to speak out against Rolex watches too.

Oh, come on, you can do better than that! LOL What you say is true. But I don't know what to say, are you saying we should accept children wanting to emulate the criminal element in dress, accessories, and mannerisms? Because it's the whole package that causes the problem, not the hoodie by itself. You know kids didn't do that when you and me were growing up, and the kids doing it today are having devastating consequences. the high unemployment rate among black youth is one of the biggest side effects of this.

[ms_m]

JillFoster I truly believe it's dangerous and downright ignorant to say a young man can't dress in the manner he feels without getting killed...hell, being Black will get you killed, being gay will get you killed, being a Muslim will get you killed, being in the wrong place at the wrong time will get you killed....it's about the person pulling the trigger Jill Foster...

I don't care for the style of dress a lot of people sport but I don't going around killing people because of it...do you?

[ms_m]

JillFoster, you need to get out more often. I can think of a dozen young men that wear that garb and are doing very well in school...many of them on the honor role....I can think of twice that many who wear suits doing the week and that garb on the weekends and they are doing quite well for themselves too....how can that be JillFoster?

I get the dress for success and impress mantra but the idea you're pushing does nothing but confirm the ideas of way too many ignorant people who shoot first and judge later. You want to help a young bother, then become a mentor, help him to understand the importance of personal responsibility and an education....focus on those things and everything else will fall into place...focus on the way he dresses and I'll guarantee he tunes you out.

[jillfoster]

I don't care for the style of dress a lot of people sport but I don't going around killing people because of it...do you?

Of course not... but we all know this type of thing does not happen every day. Most of the consequences of thug culture are much more subtle than that. The unemployment issue being the largest of these. It's a matter of yes, in a perfect world, everyone should be able to wear whatever they want and not face any consequences for it. I wouldn't be willing to take that chance, which means i won't be walking down main street in a small town in Mississippi in drag.

[jillfoster]

JillFoster, you need to get out more often. I can think of a dozen young men that wear that garb and are doing very well in school...many of them on the honor role....I can think of twice that many who wear suits doing the week and that garb on the weekends and they are doing quite well for themselves too....how can that be JillFoster?

I get the dress for success and impress mantra but the idea you're pushing does nothing but confirm the ideas of way too many ignorant people who shoot first and judge later. You want to help a young bother, then become a mentor, help him to understand the importance of personal responsibility and an education....focus on those things and everything else will fall into place...focus on the way he dresses and I'll guarantee he tunes you out.

And that's true... I realize that. But your knowledge of these young men is different from society's PERCEPTION of them. that's all i'm sayin.

[ms_m]

We live in a country where we are 12% of the population, the perception of us has always been skrewed!

[jillfoster]

We live in a country where we are 12% of the population, the perception of us has always been skrewed!

Absolutely. But there has been opporotunity to change that for good, great strides have been made.... I see rap culture as a hindrance to that. Well anyway... we've just about talked this angle to death, Ms. M.. thanks for the respectful debate, your'e a stand up lady, and i'll never put you on ignore and call you a btich. Not without putting a "Ms." in front of it! LOL

[ms_m]

We have an extremely intelligent Black man holding the highest office in this country...he wears mom jeans but no hoodie and has received more death threats than any president in history...why do you think that is JillFoster?

[ms_m]

I always enjoy debating you JillFoster, you stand up for what you believe in and can take as well as you give. I respect that. No worries about the Bitch or the Ms...I define me, no words or anyone else.;)

[jillfoster]

Mom jeans?? ROFL.

[MotownSteve]

We have an extremely intelligent Black man holding the highest office in this country...he wears mom jeans but no hoodie and has received more death threats than any president in history...why do you think that is JillFoster?

If I may throw my two cents in, every since Clinton beat Bush the Elder, the republican party has played dirty. And each time they loose they come back and out do themselves.

[ms_m]

Steve, the extreme right has been working to push the Republican party further to the right for years. We were too busy focusing on the BS to notice and in 2010 it came back to bite us in the arse.

[soulster]

UPDATE: It looks FOX News has pulled their insanely dangerous sweatshirt! The world is a safer place!

Of course they did! Their hoodie now conflicts with their narrative! :D

[Roberta75]

The woman who threw flour at the talentless Kim Kardashian got arrested but the man who killed Trayvon Martin roams free? There is something very wrong with this picture.

Roberta

[jillfoster]

Wow.. she threw flour and got arrested? That is ridiculous.

[Jerry Oz]

My main problem with your contention Jill Foster, is that I don't personally see a hoodie as the dress of thugs. Interestingly, Treyvon Martin had his hood on in the rain, which I think is reasonable. I see dozens of college kids wearing them around campuses and, black or white, none of them strikes me as "dressing like thugs". I guess it's the context of who is whering the clothing combined with where they are. That being said, Zimmerman saw a black kid in a hoodie in HIS neighborhood and that raised his radar. I'm thinking the hoodie only reinforced his idea that he was a crook; had he been wearing a leisure suit, it wouldn't have discouraged the incident.

[marv2]

Joe Oliver. Remember that name. IF you have not heard it yet, you will. Mr. Oliver was n MSNBC this afternoon with Chris Matthews. He is a personal friend of George Zimmerman. He claims that Trayvon Martin was the aggressor. He claims that Trayvon threw a punch that broke Zimmerman's nose which caused Zimmerman to fear for his life, which in turned caused him to shoot the kid dead.

[juicefree20]

I wasn't surprised to see them find the "black" friend whom would speak out to tell us how ''wonderful'' Mr. Zimmerman is. Nor was I surprised to see the latest argument offered by Zimmerman's lawyer that he was assaulted.

It's all bullshit.

Here's a question that the good lawyer & everyone else has to answer in order to satisfy me...

If Zimmerman had the right to stand his ground while taking it upon himself to play mall cop, didn't Trayvon have the right to stand HIS own ground against someone whom was following him AGAINST the suggestion of the police dispatcher?

And if as was reported Zimmerman was following him in a car, then exactly how & why did it come to be that Zimmerman found himself on the OUTSIDE of his car so that Trayvon could've attacked him, as he asserts?

By this stupid law, if Zimmerman got out of his car to confront Trayvon, did not Trayvon also reserve the right to stand his ground? And considering the fact that this guy took it upon himself to follow this "DANGEROUS" young man who was armed with a pack of Skittles, is it unreasonable to take it one step further & take an educated guess that he got out of his car seeking to be confrontational simply because he knew that he was packing a gun & believed that that stupid law would protect him should matters escalate?

If he was so deeply concerned about where the young man was going, why didn't he keep his silly ass in his car & simply follow him as he had been doing all along?

Perhpas he'd have gotten the answer to his question, but perhaps that wouldn't have proven satisfactory to him, as he had his own agenda all along?

This law is stupid because it gives anyone with mental issues, or simply an agenda of their own ammunition to shoot anyone of their choosing, simply due to "threats" both real or imagined, or simply someone whom they don't like, counting on this law to bail them out, as is obviously the case here.

And why is it always the case that this kind of crap only seems to happen to people of color? And were it not for the internet, this whole thing would likely have been swept under the rug.

As for those pointing out that Zimmerman is of mixed ethnicity, that means absolutely NOTHING. People of ANY ethnicity can be bigots & have racist tendencies. He didn't shoot another hispanic, he shot a young UNARMED black male. So his ethnicity is of little import to me because it's for damn certain that Zimmerman isn't black. And if his remark "They always get away with it" doesn't speak to his mindset & possible agenda, then exactly what does.

Exactly who are the "THEY" to whom he was referring...The Smurfs?

How long will people choose to make excuses for & defend the indefensible?

[juicefree20]

Now for Geraldo's dumb-assed statement because he really shouldve known better.

As I recall it, most of the horifficaly heinous crimes have been committed NOT by black kids wearing hoodies, but by some wearing 3 piece-suits & some kids wearing trenchcoats or dressed like Rambo.

So should we see a kid dressed in a trenchcoat, should someone automatically assume that he or she is about to blow up their school & blow out their brains because other kids wearing trenchcoats tried to wipe out their school[[s)?

Just wondering where we draw the line as regards the clothing profile angle?

[marv2]

I wasn't surprised to see them find the "black" friend whom would speak out to tell us how ''wonderful'' Mr. Zimmerman is. Nor was I surprised to see the latest argument offered by Zimmerman's lawyer that he was assaulted.

It's all bullshit.

Here's a question that the good lawyer & everyone else has to answer in order to satisfy me...

If Zimmerman had the right to stand his ground while taking it upon himself to play mall cop, didn't Trayvon have the right to stand HIS own ground against someone whom was following him AGAINST the suggestion of the police dispatcher?

And if as was reported Zimmerman was following him in a car, then exactly how & why did it come to be that Zimmerman found himself on the OUTSIDE of his car so that Trayvon could've attacked him, as he asserts?

By this stupid law, if Zimmerman got out of his car to confront Trayvon, did not Trayvon also reserve the right to stand his ground? And considering the fact that this guy took it upon himself to follow this "DANGEROUS" young man who was armed with a pack of Skittles, is it unreasonable to take it one step further & take an educated guess that he got out of his car seeking to be confrontational simply because he knew that he was packing a gun & believed that that stupid law would protect him should matters escalate?

If he was so deeply concerned about where the young man was going, why didn't he keep his silly ass in his car & simply follow him as he had been doing all along?

Perhpas he'd have gotten the answer to his question, but perhaps that wouldn't have proven satisfactory to him, as he had his own agenda all along?

This law is stupid because it gives anyone with mental issues, or simply an agenda of their own ammunition to shoot anyone of their choosing, simply due to "threats" both real or imagined, or simply someone whom they don't like, counting on this law to bail them out, as is obviously the case here.

And why is it always the case that this kind of crap only seems to happen to people of color? And were it not for the internet, this whole thing would likely have been swept under the rug.

As for those pointing out that Zimmerman is of mixed ethnicity, that means absolutely NOTHING. People of ANY ethnicity can be bigots & have racist tendencies. He didn't shoot another hispanic, he shot a young UNARMED black male. So his ethnicity is of little import to me because it's for damn certain that Zimmerman isn't black. And if his remark "They always get away with it" doesn't speak to his mindset & possible agenda, then exactly what does.

Exactly who are the "THEY" to whom he was referring...The Smurfs?

How long will people choose to make excuses for & defend the indefensible?

Total bullshit! When this Joe Oliver appeared on television today, I was literally clawing the sofa because I knew what his purpose was. He is being used to thwart the real possibility that Zimmerman had racist tendencies and acted upon them. The female eyewitness that lived in the neighborhood and saw Zimmerman standing or straddling Martin's body said that the screams came from Trayvon and immediately stopped after the gunshot!

The bottomline is: He [[Zimmerman) chased that kid down and shot him like an animal. He had no regard for the pleading for his life, for help. He shot him anyway! He would not shoot a dog that way.

[marv2]

One more thing, when Chris Matthews brought up the part of the tape where Zimmerman mutters "F-ing Coon", Mr. Oliver tried to explain that away as not being racist. He said that it and the term "goon" are terms of endearment in areas like Louisiana and in general among young adults. So, based on his comments, are we now t o assume that Mr. Zimmerman was chasing Trayvon Martin with a gun to show him love?

[MotownSteve]

Joe Oliver will be on 'Countdown With Keith Olbermann' tonight. He is getting entirely too much air time. The bottom line, as has been pointed out above several times, is that if Zimmerman had not gotten out of his car none of this would be going on. He should go back where he came from and shut up! He was not there that night and has nothing to base his statements on.

[juicefree20]

Marv,

As I said, it's B.S. & the trotting out of a "black" guy to prove that a suspect couldn't possibly have racist tendencies is as old as the episode of Batman when Batman & Robin were fighting Kato & The Green Hornet & ended up as postage stamps & is equally as ludicrous.

And Oliver should've understood exactly why & how he was being used & should be ashamed of allowing himself to be used in such a manner.

And even if Zimmerman IS NOT a racist, the mere mention of the hoodie indicates that he harbors fears which are based upon race. If not that, then perhaps watching one too many "hood" movies, many of which WERE NOT written by blacks, or watching one too many music videos...videos which are not bankrolled by BLACKS, but by music conglomerates whom are guilty of pushing the negative envelope, so some can make of that what they will.

Regardless of how they try to spin this, it still seems to point the finger of guilt toward Mr. Zimmerman.

If they're going to try to invoke the right for him to stand his ground, then as he was the aggressor in following Trayvon, then it would appear as though the one whom had the right to stand his ground was Trayvon, as he was the one being pursued, would it not?

So, according to that law, it would appear as though if there were anyone whom had the right to shoot, it would've been Trayvon, as by their law, he would've been standing his ground against someone whom was actively pursuing HIM, not the other way around.

One of the criteria which is used in most shootings is "retreat". Most laws trip up people who shoot people in the back because the back being turned is an indicator that the victim is not being aggressive, as running away tends to be a passive movement. If Trayvon was walking away from Zimmerman, then Zimmerman is the one who's guilty of being aggressive. Note that at no point during the call to the dispatcher did Zimmerman suggest that Trayvon had confronted him, but rather that he [[Zimmerman) was FOLLOWING Trayvon.

If Zimmerman was following Trayvon, then that would mean that whatever ground he believed himself to holding was ground that he willingly gave up the moment that he pursued Trayvon. In this case, common sense would dictate that as the pursued, Trayvon had the right to defend himself against someone whom was pursuing him for no reason other than the fact that he wanted to pursue Trayvon, or one of the voices inside of his head told him that Trayvon was a threat. Which didn't make it true for anyone other than himself. Even if he got out of that car & got punched in the head, Trayvon had every right to defend himself against some self-appointed Dudley Do Right who took it upon himself to walk up on a perfect stranger.

The pack of Skittles pretty much says it all, as does the old expression that if you give someone a rope, then he wants to be a cowboy..

[juicefree20]

And as usually is the case, they've decided to attempt to demonize the victim by leaking a story that Trayvon had been arrested & them finding a trace of marijuana in his backpack, as though that has anything to do with this case. Hell, if they demonize everyone who's ever had a joint, then much of the free world would be in shackles right now.

Including some reporters, tv commentators & law enforcement agents.

That is nothing more than yet another shameless attempt to demonize a victim, as if mentioning that makes him the equivalent of Babyface Nelson or Nino Brown.

Frankly, it's disgusting, but unfortunately, it's nothing new. We've been here before. I can only imagine how the story would be written if the roles had been reversed & we all know what we'd be reading, as well as how it would be reported & there would be no excuses being made if Trayvon had been the one holding the gun.

All that I can say is that I hope Mr. Zimmerman drinks from the cup which he poured, the stupid law should be repealed & anyone who thinks that any of this is perfectly alright, then may they reap what they sow because their silence & acquiesence is a major part of the problem.

Enough of this crap is enough.

[smark21]

Well Jill/David, this is the first I ‘ve heard that your yahoo account was hacked by somebody and they used your account to make racial epithets against Susaye. Did you ever find out who the culprit was?
Back on topic, it doesn’t matter what he was wearing, Zimmerman saw a young black man and made a judgement, the first of many wrong choices that night. If he had just called the Police and then back off we wouldn’t be talking about this. The kid would either have been home before the cops came or else it would have been an ugly little incident that would have been an item on the local news at most. But Zimmerman took it to the extreme level because he profiled and reached the wrong conclusion.

Also I disagree with your assertion that the civil rights movement became unpopular with whites because African American youth embraced hip hop. Civil rights encountered resistance from the get go. And in the mid to late 60’s many additional whites, who may have not had objections to the goals of the early 60’s Southern movement to integrate buses and lunch counters, turned against the movement when it went North and took on issues related to economic injustice and lack of political power within African American communities.

[MotownSteve]

juicefree20,
You rightly bring up the 'trace of marijuana' in Trayvon's backpack. My question, rhetorical, is which is worse, marijuana, or assaulting a police officer, as Zimmerman had been accused of.

[juicefree20]

MotownSteve,

From what I've been reading, as well as some of the excuses being offered up, as long as he WAS NOT wearing a hoodie, then he was no threat to said officer.

[juicefree20]

Jill...

Piggy-backing on what Smark said, the timeline for that is off.

Rap wasn't recognized by most & in fact most of the people whom you're speaking of didn't even know that Rap existed until "Rapper's Delight" came out in late 1979. Hip-Hop as we know it wasn't really a common phrase until the early part of the 80s, after good old "Reganomics" was in full swing.

Even prior to that, documentaries drive home the point that Civil Rights was never really popular with people who simply didn't understand why "those" people wanted to make trouble & make them look like "bad" people for wanting things to remain as they had always been.

As I recall it, they didn't seem to understand why we couldn't simply wait for that change to come & many of them had to be dragged kicking & screaming out of 1937 or thereabouts.

For reference, google up the progressive areas of my city known as Bensonhurst, Bay Ridge, Howard Beach, Gravesend & you'll notice that when they speak or post pictures of the "good old days", you'll discover a definite lack of color, as they too, wish that things could go back to the way that they were...

Or to paraphrase Machine, "no Blacks, no Jews, no Gays, no Asians, no Latinos, no East Indians, etc., etc., etc".

Unfortunately, I imagine that such rhetoric can be found in all such neighborhoods of the 50 states when reflecting upon those days & a perusal of just about any internet board or forum bears this out.

Not to mention the nasty statements which are written whenever any innocent young gay or person of color are murdered in the streets of "Anytown, USA".

[marv2]

Marv,

As I said, it's B.S. & the trotting out of a "black" guy to prove that a suspect couldn't possibly have racist tendencies is as old as the episode of Batman when Batman & Robin were fighting Kato & The Green Hornet & ended up as postage stamps & is equally as ludicrous.

And Oliver should've understood exactly why & how he was being used & should be ashamed of allowing himself to be used in such a manner.

And even if Zimmerman IS NOT a racist, the mere mention of the hoodie indicates that he harbors fears which are based upon race. If not that, then perhaps watching one too many "hood" movies, many of which WERE NOT written by blacks, or watching one too many music videos...videos which are not bankrolled by BLACKS, but by music conglomerates whom are guilty of pushing the negative envelope, so some can make of that what they will.

Regardless of how they try to spin this, it still seems to point the finger of guilt toward Mr. Zimmerman.

If they're going to try to invoke the right for him to stand his ground, then as he was the aggressor in following Trayvon, then it would appear as though the one whom had the right to stand his ground was Trayvon, as he was the one being pursued, would it not?

So, according to that law, it would appear as though if there were anyone whom had the right to shoot, it would've been Trayvon, as by their law, he would've been standing his ground against someone whom was actively pursuing HIM, not the other way around.

One of the criteria which is used in most shootings is "retreat". Most laws trip up people who shoot people in the back because the back being turned is an indicator that the victim is not being aggressive, as running away tends to be a passive movement. If Trayvon was walking away from Zimmerman, then Zimmerman is the one who's guilty of being aggressive. Note that at no point during the call to the dispatcher did Zimmerman suggest that Trayvon had confronted him, but rather that he [[Zimmerman) was FOLLOWING Trayvon.

If Zimmerman was following Trayvon, then that would mean that whatever ground he believed himself to holding was ground that he willingly gave up the moment that he pursued Trayvon. In this case, common sense would dictate that as the pursued, Trayvon had the right to defend himself against someone whom was pursuing him for no reason other than the fact that he wanted to pursue Trayvon, or one of the voices inside of his head told him that Trayvon was a threat. Which didn't make it true for anyone other than himself. Even if he got out of that car & got punched in the head, Trayvon had every right to defend himself against some self-appointed Dudley Do Right who took it upon himself to walk up on a perfect stranger.

The pack of Skittles pretty much says it all, as does the old expression that if you give someone a rope, then he wants to be a cowboy..

You're too much! [[Batman, Green Hornet, heheheheheh!) But are also right on the money! I've seen similiar scenes with Mall security chasing kids outside to the parking lot. The difference being, they had actually done something wrong. In this case, this young man, this kid had done nothing wrong. He did not even know why this man Zimmerman was following him. Trayvon's girlfriend was on her cell phone encouraging him to run....but he did not I understand. Here he had this big, angry guy coming after him and did not understand why?


Man, this whole story gets sadder and sadder and makes me angry the more I hear of the details. Sean Bell, Amadou Diallo, Abner Louima, that young man in the Bronx last month....Emmit Till! So, so many more that were murdered and mamed for no apparent reason other than their skin color/ race.

This guy George Zimmerman was not standing his ground when decided to pursue Trayvon. When he shot and killed him, it was not in self-defense, it was out of pure hatred. I am sure he really began to see red when this innocent kid did whatever he could to defend himself from a grown man outweighing him by 100-125 lbs. What kind of person can listen to and look at another human being screaming and begging for mercy and shoot them anyway with a 9mm gun? How can you develop that much hate in such a short timeframe for a complete stranger?

[marv2]

Joe Oliver will be on 'Countdown With Keith Olbermann' tonight. He is getting entirely too much air time. The bottom line, as has been pointed out above several times, is that if Zimmerman had not gotten out of his car none of this would be going on. He should go back where he came from and shut up! He was not there that night and has nothing to base his statements on.

Keith Olbermann is back on television? On MSNBC?

[Jerry Oz]

Why black people don't trust the police By LZ Granderson, CNN Contributor

CNN) -- I don't trust cops and I don't know many black people who do. I respect them. I sympathize with them. I am appreciative of the work they do.
But when you've been pulled over for no good reason as many times as I have; when you've been in handcuffs for no good reason as many times as I have; when you run out to buy some allergy medication and upon returning home, find yourself surrounded by four squad cars with flashing lights and all you can think about is how not to get shot, you learn not to trust cops.


The first instance of injustice surrounding the Trayvon Martin tragedy occurred February 26, the night George Zimmerman decided to pursue, confront and ultimately shoot and kill Martin. The second started the moment the Sanford police failed to properly investigate what, given the 911 tapes, is clearly a questionable claim of self-defense made by Zimmerman. But seeing that Martin's parents were forced to sue the police department just to hear the tapes, it seems as if Zimmerman isn't the only questionable component in this case.


Thursday, Sanford Police Chief Bill Lee stepped down "temporarily." On Wednesday, Sanford city commissioners had voted "no confidence" in him.


But at a town hall meeting [[http://edition.cnn.com/2012/03/22/opinion/granderson-florida-shootings/I) hosted by the NAACP on Tuesday, Sanford's black residents said they lost confidence in the police long before because of the extensive history of prejudicial treatment in the area.
Law enforcement isn't easy. In fact, it is extremely dangerous. But that in no way excuses improper procedure and lies. And given the amount of effort put forth by the Sanford chief to exonerate Zimmerman, a volunteer neighborhood watchman with a history of 911 calls that suggests paranoia, versus efforts to find out the truth, it sure feels like another case of racial profiling and police trying to cover up an impropriety. The shooter may not have been a police officer, but the story of how the police handled this case is oh-so-familiar.
It's the same story the nation heard from blacks in Los Angeles surrounding the 1991 Rodney King beating.
It's the same story heard from blacks in New York City surrounding the murder of Amadou Diallo, who was only carrying his wallet when he was shot 41 times by four plainclothes policemen in 1999.


That same story was heard in New Orleans, where black men were shot and killed for sport by police officers off the Danziger Bridge in 2005. The police department covered it up for two years before any arrests were made. Charges were even initially dismissed by the district judge before the Justice Department got involved and finally, last summer, officers were convicted.
And people wonder where the impetus behind NWA's "___ the Police" came from. I'll tell you where it came from. It came from knowing there are far more stories like Trayvon Martin's that the world never hears about. In fact, we almost didn't hear about this one. The nation heard the 911 tapes from last month's tragic shooting [[http://articles.cnn.com/2012-02-27/justice/justice_ohio-school-shooting_1_students-grieve-critical-condition-ohio-town?_s=PM:JUSTICE) at Chardon High School in Ohio within 24 hours of the incident. Martin's parents had to file a lawsuit [[http://edition.cnn.com/2012/03/22/opinion/granderson-florida-shootings/?hpt=hp_t1) before they could hear the ones in this case.
Why?
If the police department had done everything it was supposed to do, if it was truly "PROHIBITED from making an arrest based on the facts and circumstances they had at the time" as the letter released by the city manager states, then why hold back until there is national media attention?


The letter said the department was still investigating the case and didn't want to compromise it, but the authorities never brought Zimmerman in for questioning. They still haven't. They tested Martin's body for drugs and alcohol, but not Zimmerman's. The only person with a weapon was Zimmerman. Martin was unarmed.

Just like the victims in New Orleans, Diallo, King. ...
In 2010, the family of Sean Bell was awarded $7 million by the city of New York after five police officers sprayed his car with more than 50 bullets, killing him. He was unarmed and to be married the next day.
"No amount of money can provide closure, no amount of money can make up for the pain," his fiancee, Nicole Paultre Bell, said after the ruling. "We'll just try to learn how to live with it and move on."
Those are words members of the black community have to say to each other far too many times when it comes to treatment by the police.



http://edition.cnn.com/2012/03/22/opinion/granderson-florida-shootings/?hpt=hp_t1

[ms_m]

If they're going to try to invoke the right for him to stand his ground, then as he was the aggressor in following Trayvon, then it would appear as though the one whom had the right to stand his ground was Trayvon, as he was the one being pursued, would it not?

I wish more commentators would speak on this Juice. The author of that bill and many Repubs tried to run from that daymn law but I knew it was going to come into play.

[Jerry Oz]

I wish more commentators would speak on this Juice. The author of that bill and many Repubs tried to run from that daymn law but I knew it was going to come into play.
Even Jeb said that the intent of the law was never to provoke a response and then "stand your ground". I think the genie is out of the bottle and none of the Florida legislature is going to want to repeal the law. Hopefully they will at least put conditions on it and make certain law enforcement understands that they still have to do their jobs when it is invoked [[read: don't shrug your shoulders and take the killer's word for it).

[juicefree20]

Jerry Oz

And that article illustrates perfectly why these folks shouldn't continually adopt the "Circle the wagons" posture that they always do.

As pointed out, law enforcement is an extremely difficult job & must sometimes feel like a thankless job. Which is exactly why bad apples need to be weeded-out, rather than defended. The actions of a few bad apples tends to ruin the good work of the majority. And when good are always placed in the position of automatically defending the wrong deeds of a few, it leads to the distrust that we see today.

I defy anyone to show me decades worth of history where black or latino officers can kill unarmed, innocent whites & have their actions AUTOMATICALLY defended by not just their peers, but their city officials.

Please, someone...ANYONE direct me to where I can find decades worth of unarmed whites being murdered by police officers & I'll change my opinion & apologize.

But no one can provide such information because there are no decades worth of these "accidental" shootings occurring because those communities would never allow that to be the case & we all know that. But the attitudes of many here in America has proven that the lives of young black males means next-to-nothing. And for the record, this attitude CANNOT be blamed on Rap music,''hood'' movies, hoodies, nor any other such b.s., as the murder of Michael Stewart occurred before ''hood'' movies were a blip on the consciousness of America. Rap videos weren't being made just yet & "hood'' movies weren't & images of angry, dangerous, predatory, black males hadn't been presented to mainstream America via Rap videos & "hood'' movies.

And that crap is always defended now, just as was defended back in 1967 when The Algiers Motel Incident saw Detroit erupt in flames.

And never...NEVER is there any accountability for these incidents & if the UNARMED, INNOCENT victim stole a pack of cookies in the 3rd grade, they'll make sure that the media gets the info, if only to show that as early as the age of 8, this kid was destined to become a bad apple.

These kinds of attitudes has been around since the days of Rosewood & sorry-assed ecuses have never been in short supply whenever something such as this occurs.

For many, it's nothing more than the equivalent of N.I.M.B.Y. x 10 squared.

[soulster]

Keith Olbermann is back on television? On MSNBC?

Not on MSNBC, but on Current TV, a cable network. Not all cable systems carry it.

[marv2]

juicefree20,
You rightly bring up the 'trace of marijuana' in Trayvon's backpack. My question, rhetorical, is which is worse, marijuana, or assaulting a police officer, as Zimmerman had been accused of.

Exactly! Hell, I had teachers that smoked pot on their breaks [[it was the 70's). I expected them to try to dig up some dirt on the victim because this case is receiving a huge outpouring of support and demands that George Zimmerman be arrested. "They" want so badly to say that this kid was not a saint. Bullshit! He was walking home from the store minding his own business ,that is what we need to know. He accosted by a man with no legal authority to stop him from walking on the street!

[Jerry Oz]

Juicefree, you echo my sentiments that any cop that fails to police other cops is in league with him. It bothers me that a cop can break the law in full view of his peers but nobody crosses the thin blue line to see that justice takes place because then he'll be left out to dry by his "brothers". I know it's very difficult occupation, but the police should be held to much higher standards than the rest of us or they're basically just a necessary evil. That's kind of how the mafia started. So, who will watch the Watchmen?

[marv2]

Why black people don't trust the police By LZ Granderson, CNN Contributor

CNN) -- I don't trust cops and I don't know many black people who do. I respect them. I sympathize with them. I am appreciative of the work they do.
But when you've been pulled over for no good reason as many times as I have; when you've been in handcuffs for no good reason as many times as I have; when you run out to buy some allergy medication and upon returning home, find yourself surrounded by four squad cars with flashing lights and all you can think about is how not to get shot, you learn not to trust cops.


The first instance of injustice surrounding the Trayvon Martin tragedy occurred February 26, the night George Zimmerman decided to pursue, confront and ultimately shoot and kill Martin. The second started the moment the Sanford police failed to properly investigate what, given the 911 tapes, is clearly a questionable claim of self-defense made by Zimmerman. But seeing that Martin's parents were forced to sue the police department just to hear the tapes, it seems as if Zimmerman isn't the only questionable component in this case.


Thursday, Sanford Police Chief Bill Lee stepped down "temporarily." On Wednesday, Sanford city commissioners had voted "no confidence" in him.


But at a town hall meeting [[http://edition.cnn.com/2012/03/22/opinion/granderson-florida-shootings/I) hosted by the NAACP on Tuesday, Sanford's black residents said they lost confidence in the police long before because of the extensive history of prejudicial treatment in the area.
Law enforcement isn't easy. In fact, it is extremely dangerous. But that in no way excuses improper procedure and lies. And given the amount of effort put forth by the Sanford chief to exonerate Zimmerman, a volunteer neighborhood watchman with a history of 911 calls that suggests paranoia, versus efforts to find out the truth, it sure feels like another case of racial profiling and police trying to cover up an impropriety. The shooter may not have been a police officer, but the story of how the police handled this case is oh-so-familiar.
It's the same story the nation heard from blacks in Los Angeles surrounding the 1991 Rodney King beating.
It's the same story heard from blacks in New York City surrounding the murder of Amadou Diallo, who was only carrying his wallet when he was shot 41 times by four plainclothes policemen in 1999.


That same story was heard in New Orleans, where black men were shot and killed for sport by police officers off the Danziger Bridge in 2005. The police department covered it up for two years before any arrests were made. Charges were even initially dismissed by the district judge before the Justice Department got involved and finally, last summer, officers were convicted.
And people wonder where the impetus behind NWA's "___ the Police" came from. I'll tell you where it came from. It came from knowing there are far more stories like Trayvon Martin's that the world never hears about. In fact, we almost didn't hear about this one. The nation heard the 911 tapes from last month's tragic shooting [[http://articles.cnn.com/2012-02-27/justice/justice_ohio-school-shooting_1_students-grieve-critical-condition-ohio-town?_s=PM:JUSTICE) at Chardon High School in Ohio within 24 hours of the incident. Martin's parents had to file a lawsuit [[http://edition.cnn.com/2012/03/22/opinion/granderson-florida-shootings/?hpt=hp_t1) before they could hear the ones in this case.
Why?
If the police department had done everything it was supposed to do, if it was truly "PROHIBITED from making an arrest based on the facts and circumstances they had at the time" as the letter released by the city manager states, then why hold back until there is national media attention?


The letter said the department was still investigating the case and didn't want to compromise it, but the authorities never brought Zimmerman in for questioning. They still haven't. They tested Martin's body for drugs and alcohol, but not Zimmerman's. The only person with a weapon was Zimmerman. Martin was unarmed.

Just like the victims in New Orleans, Diallo, King. ...
In 2010, the family of Sean Bell was awarded $7 million by the city of New York after five police officers sprayed his car with more than 50 bullets, killing him. He was unarmed and to be married the next day.
"No amount of money can provide closure, no amount of money can make up for the pain," his fiancee, Nicole Paultre Bell, said after the ruling. "We'll just try to learn how to live with it and move on."
Those are words members of the black community have to say to each other far too many times when it comes to treatment by the police.



http://edition.cnn.com/2012/03/22/opinion/granderson-florida-shootings/?hpt=hp_t1

You know it's a strange thing,but I live in Suffolk County on Long Island ,NY. The police here are some of the highest paid in the nation. That aside they have been of great service and help to me over the years. I have to be honest about that. They have even done me favors beyond the call of duty where I felt compelled to write a letter of praise. I have never felt intimidated or distrustful of the Suffolk County Police. But it is a totally different story with the NYPD! Also the Nassau County Police. With the NYPD I am always hoping they do not stop me for anything because you never know what is going to happen. They can be extremely disrespectfu8l and quite provocative to put it politely!

[marv2]

Not on MSNBC, but on Current TV, a cable network. Not all cable systems carry it.

Darn it! I loved Keith's show. I have not heard of Current TV before.

[ms_m]

Even Jeb said that the intent of the law was never to provoke a response and then "stand your ground".

I hear what you're saying Jerry Oz but Jeb is looking at 2016, maybe even a VP slot, I take what he says with a grain of salt because they all seem to be trying to walk that law back now...but the fact is...this isn't the first case in Fla where something similar has happened and Jeb and none of the rest had one thing to say about it.

I agree with you, I hope this makes them go back and look at this.....even our legislators [[NC) are in scramble mode looking over the law we have here that is similar. I also agree this is going to bite them in the arse big time....at least I hope it does. If anything can come out of this tragedy, let's hope it opens the eyes of more people to what's been going on out here.

[juicefree20]

Ms M,

I see that once again I'm typing so slow that a few responses are coming in before I can respond timely.

As Jerry Oz pointed out, indeed Jeb Bush stated a few days ago that in this case, that "stand your ground'' law doesn't apply. In this case, I don't believe that it's so much the law which is to blame, but rather the lack of due diligence by those charged to uphold law & order that is to blame here.

Had they simply used even an ounce of common sense & merely adhered to the spirit of the law, they would've immediately recognized that this guy overstepped his boundaries & was in clear violation of the spirit of the law. Any of them who possessed an ounce of commond decency & sense would've automatically asked this man why after reporting his suspicions, he chose to basically STALK this young man?

He may have had the right to "stand his ground", but exactly how is stalking someone, especially AFTER the dispatcher told him not to do so, qualify as "standing his ground"?

Furthermore, as he was the aggressor, if he got out of his truck, car, whatever to confront Trayvon, then using the tenets of that law, shouldn't Zimmerman's lawyer be arguing that Trayvon was well within his rights to defend himself & if Zimmerman got punched in the face for pursuing Trayvon, then he got exactly what he deserved, as surely a young man being pursued by a perfect stranger must also reserve the right to stand his ground?

Common sense would dictate that Trayvon had the right to "stand his ground" against a stranger whom was pursuing him.

Not only that, but a few accounts seem to indicate that Trayvon was running away from this guy. This would also indicate that if nothing else, Trayon was attempting to get away from this guy & was far from the aggressor which they're trying to paint him out to be.

If Zimmerman was so bold as to chase Trayvon, then I have to believe that knowing that law, as well as the fact that he was holding a gun, that he felt emboldened enough to get out of his car & confront Trayvon. The news report earlier today claimed that Trayvon went for Zimmerman's gun. If he did, then how was he able to grab for the gun & why was a gun pulled on Trayvon in the first place?

It takes no stretch of the imagination to conclude that Trayvon fully understood that he was likely to catch the short end of the stick & once he had nowhere else to go, he chose not to go down without a fight.

People can try to excuse this away by blaming hoodies [[a ridiculous statement if ever I've heard one) or anything else. But the bottom line is that if Zimmerman had simply chosen to remain in his car & let real police officers do their jobs, we'd likely not be having this conversation.

He chose not to, a young man lost his life to a person who IS NOT an officer of the law because he saw a "boogeyman".

And his actions, whether he has a boo-boo on his head or not is what makes him guilty. He over-stepped his boundaries & a innocent young man lost his life.

And for those who are screaming that Zimmerman isn't racist, I wonder if they'd be praising his hispanic heritage if the kid that he shot happened to be not of color.

I'm just saying...

[juicefree20]

I have another question...

Zimmerman's lawyer has tried to excuse this by mentioning Zimmerman's little head "boo-boo", but given the piss-poor, sorry NON-investigation done by the police department, exactly when was this "attack" reported to the police?

It would appear to me that THAT would've been the FIRST thing that we heard, but this seems to be something that's been mentioned only since this became a firestorm. On what date was this "attack'' reported to the police & why wasn't that report used as a defense from Day One?

Either way, that turn of events simply doesn't jive with that dispatcher call which we've all heard, nor does it jive with the admonishment of the dispatcher who in effect was telling him to cease & desist following Trayvon.

Life's wonderful when you can make things up as you go along because you feel secure enough to feel that no matter what, ain't a damn thing going to be done about it.

I believe that the term is "Carte' Blanche'" & it's been the S.O.P. for all too many people for far too long in situations such as this.

I get the feeling that some folks aren't going to be happy until we have a civil war in our streets.

[ms_m]

They are all in walk back mode Juice and although Jeb is suppose to be the smart one, he's still a Bush...I wouldn't trust any of that Bush gang as far as I could throw 'em. I'll give him props for seeming to be a better gov than Scott who is truly a crook but that's as much of a pass I'm willing to give Jeb.

Racism, hoodies....I'm not convince going down that road will get us anywhere...I think we have a better chance attacking that daymn law....we'll have to see how the Martin's lawyers handle this.

[juicefree20]

Marv,

Even if they came up with pictures that showed him once snorting half of Bolivia, it would still have no bearing on what he was doing that night, which was minding his business. So that marijuana crap is as meaniningless, as it is despicable. That trace of marijuana meant nothing, that is unless Zimmerman was pissed that he had none of his own, or had already smoked some, which fried his brian into believing that he was Dirty Harry on a mission to rid the world of hoodies.

[juicefree20]

Jerry Oz...

And that serves to underscore a point that Ms M made here on several occasions about stopping the madness & not acting in concert with B.S.

Dirty hands are dirty hands & when you bust your butt in a job as difficult as law enforcement, you certainly need not complicate it by having to defend dirty partners. And worse than that is the realization that should you dare to speak against a dirty officer, you're likely to be ostracized & even scarier, may find yourself the target of some no-so "friendly" fire for doing so.

That's what makes this whole thing so difficult to combat, as well as to weed out. You'll notice that you rarely see bad officers removed for shooting innocent people. Now dipping into the drug money...that's another matter entirely.

[ms_m]

Daymn Juice, Serpico is going to be stuck in my head for the rest of the night. LOL

I agree though, this is going to be a tough one. I hope the Martin's lawyers are up for the task or the DOJ expands their investigation.

[juicefree20]

Ms M,

I agree with you. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if we see some very creative book keeping, with altered timestamps in an attempt to cover up this piss-poor, lousy job of NON-law enforcement.

Helen Keller can see this in braille & it takes no rocket scientist to figure out where all of this went wrong. They can rectify this situation by simply applying common sense. And from what we've learned there was only ONE person in this situation who had the right to "hold their ground" & by their own law, that was Trayvon.

That law does not say "follow a person & shoot if you believe that you have to". My understanding is that it applies to certain situations & following behind someone for no good reason, or based upon what you THINK is not applicable in such a csae.

No matter how they try to spin this, Zimmerman's actions or lack of adhering to the law is what led to this & he should have to pay for that. And I believe that his actions have given them ample room to absolutely hammer him if they choose to.

The question is will they have the balls to do the right thing because from what we've learned thus far, they have all of the ammunition to do so if they so desire.

I wish that I knew that family & could speak at one of their rallies. Because I have the feeling that I'm making some sense here, but through all of the emotion, no one seems to be thinking about the fact that Trayvon was the one who had the right to stand his ground.

Why this seems to be going above everyone's head, I don't know. I simply don't understand why everyone isn't driving that point home...Trayvon was the pursued, not the pursuer. I thought that that was the whole point of "standing one's ground".

Except for when they change the rules of the game & we all know when those rules change, now don't we?

Perhaps this can lead to a repeal of this law & maybe the family may receive solace should they ever create a "Trayvon Law", which will protect ALL innocent, unarmed people from being killed from an over-ealous cop, or merely some nut-job who is spooked by everyone who looks like the "boogeyman".

Either way, something must be done or other innocent blood is likely to be spilt, as people have grown weary of seeing people getting away with killing unarmed minorities at a whim.

[ms_m]

There are similar laws all over the country but what it seems to boil down to is the way they were crafted....this one comes off as poorly written no matter what they try to say the intent was.

[juicefree20]

Serpico, huh :)

Honestly, I don't believe that Zimmerman is going to have an easy go with this.

For one thing, he can't claim to be a police officer who's in the line of duty, as has been the case for most of these situation of which many of us refer to.

Zimmerman is NOT an officer of the law & neighborhood watch notwithstanding, he has no right to pursue, then shoot an unarmed, innocent kid. Had they been able to simply sweep this under the rug as they did for nearly a month, perhaps they could've wished this away into the cornfiled like little Anthony did in The Twilight Zone.

But thanks to the internet, this story isn't going away & is taking on a life of it's own. I believe that there have been protests in at least 20 different states & that county is looking pretty damn bad right now.

In the end, I believe that it will come down to the fact that this guy was deputized to be NOTHING. He acted as a rogue, a vigilante who is a prisoner of his own mind, kind of like the episode of The Twilight Zone, "Four O'
Clock", where this guy decided that on a certain day at 4:00, all of the bad people were going to be shrunk damn near to microbes. Problem was that when the clock struck 4, he was the only one who shrunk.

And just as they're trying to toss out stories about Trayvon, don't be surprised if folks don't start doing some digging into Zimmerman. And I have a feeling that they're going to find something unpleasant about Zimmerman, perhaps some old Myspace or Facebook page, which will paint him in a VERY negative light. I say this because often times, these self-appointed do-gooders tend to leave their ramblings written somewhere. And one has to believe that if he was foolish enough to be heard saying "they always get away with it...", it's more than a little likely that he's written that or worse somewhere. Most likely somewhere on the internet because the internet seems to have the mystical power to make people say some of the most racist, obnoxious, vile crap imaginable, simply because they have an audience who laps it up, or because they believe that they're anonymous.

Well folks aren't always as anonymous as they believe themselves to be, as many have lived to discover.

I believe that this is way too hot for them to allow him to get away with. I predict a psychiatric evaluation which will naturally spell out some kind of traumatic experience in his past...robbery perhaps? And likely, he'll need some therapy to ease his trouble mind from being called "fat" when he was in preschool or some such shit.

If not that, I believe that he's going to need a good cleaners from the tire marks that are going to end up on his back after that bus rolls over him after they rightfully throw him under it. I because that he's going to end up under that bus NOT because anyone has any true desire to do so, but because whether it's political or someone trying to save their job/jobs, they're going to HAVE to do it.

This non-deputized person set himself up as judge, jury then finally, executioner.

How many people are really going to want to take the heat for a guy like him?

I believe that self-preservation, if nothing else will find him somewhat behind the 8-ball.

If not that, then I'd suggest that he find himself some tanning cream, a few hoodies of his own or a new country in which to live because if he gets off, his live isn't going to be worth a wooden nickel & a lot of people out there are going to be gunning for him.

And to further dispel the profiling myth, most of them won't come wearing any damn hoodies either.

[juicefree20]

Ms M,

There are certain counties in America which truly scare me because of the mindset that is behind laws such as this one.

That the people believed this to be a good idea & let it pass should trouble every law-abiding citizen because all that it takes is just one person to either dislike you or be suspicious of you to make everything go haywire.

THAT is the danger of this law. It's too arbitrary & allows the judgement og someone who could be a loose cannon or a borderline mental case to play judge & jury with people's lives & that should never be allowed.

[ms_m]

I don't want to see it come to that Juice. Seems to me we'd be playing into their hands. It time to be smart headed not hot headed.

I've been around a few more years longer than you but you've been around long enough to know, once there was out and out racism....laws were passed but it never went away...it turned into institutional racism where we were told we were doing nothing but whining and just needed to pull ourselves up by our bootstraps and it never went way and now we're back to where we started.

When I look at all that's gone on before I have to ask myself, why keep going down the same road knowing racism will never go away... and I don't care if it's 30% of the country or 100%...it's BS whatever the amount but it's time to deal with the fact it's never going away so we need to find a better way to get around this sht. We can't change other people but we can change the laws that keep screwing us. We can change the people in office that are doing the same. I mentioned we were 12% of the population...do you really think we'll win a fighting war? Taking some out before we all die is not my idea of winning.

[ms_m]

Truth is, some counties should scare you....hell there are some in the North I don't bother with but I don't have any reason to hang out in these types of places so I don't.

Speaking as a Southerner, there is a dynamic that's hard for outsiders to understand for Blacks that live in these types of places...sometimes it's not as bad as the stereotypes make it out to be....but let's be real and honest Juice, there are some Black neighborhoods that scare me too and I could name a few other ethnic neighborhoods as well. I'm not about to start hiding cause there are bad people out here but I am going to continue to fight for what's right and fair no matter the race, creed, gender, religion or color but I'm going to do my best to be smart about it.

[juicefree20]

Ms M,

I just think that people are tired of seeing innocent, unarmed young men die simply because of the color of their skins.

I would hope that no innocent people are harmed but I have to say that ever since President Obama took office, there seems to be a level of disrespect & dormant boldness that has definitely emboldened some. Some of the things that we've heard over the past 3 years have been more than a little over the top & when you have a guy like Gingrich trying to make an issue & demanding an apology from President Obama for saying that if he had a son, he'd look like Trayvon & seen how many people are lapping that up, is a very unsettling thing.

It's not mpst of us black nor white who seem hell-bent on dragging America back to the 1930's. Unfortunately, there are all too many ignorant people who seem to want to do just that & if they have their way, that's exactly where we'd end up.

It's bad enough when innocent, unarmed minorities are killed by cops who can at least offer up the excuse that they were ''in the line of duty". That's bad enough when it's excused away. But when the equivalent of less than a mall cop with a flashlight feels emboldened to follow, then kill an unarmed kid for no reason whatsoever & can get away scot-free, then you have sown the seeds for disaster.

Which is why I don't believe that this guy is going to walk. The summer's coming & the weather is already unseasonably hot. I don't believe that this is how they want to start off the summer is a state which already has serious issues with violence.

If the town doesn't give the Martin Family justice, I believe that the DOJ will. This is a no-brainer & for several reasons, I don't believe that Zimmerman's going to turn out to be the kind of guy that very many are going to want to fall on the sword for. If I'm wrong, then it's going to be a very hot summer in some counties in Florida.

It doesn't have to be that way. All that they have to do is the right thing & a lot of grief can be avoided.

[ms_m]

It takes two sides to make a war Juice...and before young kids like Trayvon were being gunned down they were hanging from trees....

Juice you and the young ones don't even know what being tired is...hell I barely know..... but burning down my own neighborhood and picking up a gun is not the way.

[juicefree20]

Ms M,

I was going to mention that as well. I wish that there were an equal outcry as regards black-on-black crime, but I guess that's a topic for another thread.

And of course, there are neighborhoods in my borough which I wouldn't want to be in. Hell, there are streets that I wouldn't hang out on. Admittedly, things in those neighborhoods are much better than they were 10 years ago.

Though it gets more attention when done by others, it's sad to think that young black males are a frequent target of damn near everyone, even other black males.

And while all of that angers me, I guess that what makes these types of incidents piss me off the most is that when young black males are killed by outsiders it's not because they are killed by gang members or perhaps drug dealers whom may have some kind of history. It's more of a random thing which means that all of us are targets.

That's not usually the case in our communities, where unfortunately most of the victims have had some kind of past with their assailant[[s), or were/are involved in drug dealing or gangs, which makes such an inevitability a constant possibility. And in neighborhoods such as those that some of us live in, you know what to do & how to avoid much of the nonsense.

Not so the randomness such as the cases of a Trayvon Martin or a Michael Griffith, as they didn't have to be dealers nor gang members. They could've been any of us, which is what makes these situations so maddening. They occur not because of some past beef, nor because of retribution for some misdeed. They just happen because of the color of one's skin & can happen for absolutely no reason whatsoever.

And you can't account for, nor make provisions for that kind of randomness because you never see it coming until it's too late to be able to avoid it.

[ms_m]

I'm angry too Juice but we have to start thinking with our brains and not our emotions.

[ms_m]

Think about this Juice. Why do you think many of these Repubs are trying to stop people from getting an education....not just Blacks either.

It's much easier to manipulate a person who can't or doesn't think Juice...it's easier to push the emotional buttons of people who don't take the time to reason things through. It's a form of control Juice and we have to stop falling into the trap.

[juicefree20]

Ms M,

I didn't understand why people burned down Bushwick back in 1977 during the blackout & I don't know why anyone would burn down their own neighborhhod in any uprising.

I don't believe that anyone's going to burn down their own neighborhood over this.

But considering that there is now a bounty on his head, given the economics of today, the pure dislike for his actions, as well as how these incidents always seem to find the shooter getting off scot-free, I believe that there are a lot of young men whom can also be targeted by a guy like this who are going to get justice however they can.

This guy can't hide behind a badge & if he were truly wise, I'd suggest that a few years behind bars would be a desirable alternative.

But I don't think that it'll come down to any violence because I believe that wiser heads will prevail & won't be willing to go down with the ship with this guy.

I believe that when all is said & done, they're going to find a way for some sort of justice to be served.

Thids has become much bigger than that police force could've ever imagined that it would be & I don't believe that for one moment that this case was going to draw the attention that it has.

I guess that 2 weeks of silence can lull you that way.

[ms_m]

When a person starts talking about blood being shed as a result of a racial incident I see all the Black neighborhoods that have gone up in flames in the past Juice. Did I miss a White neighborhood that burn down?

Juice, I mentioned this before, this has been going on for awhile but it was under the national radar...now that it's out, we'll see what happens.

Let's get involved in anyway we can to help fight this and keep the focus on it but let's be smart about it, let's not get sidetracked. ...eye on the prize Juice....eye on the prize.

[juicefree20]

Ms M,

There was a time when people would go out & wreck things. But of late an encourging thing has been happening.

Here when 51 shots were volleyed at Sean Bell, there were protests, some civil disobedience, but no violence. Despite the anger, no one fired any shots, no one broke windows, the leaders & the family told the protetors that they wanted peace & respect for their loved one & that;'s exactly what they got.

Al Sharpton hs received a lot of flak but he told the demonstrators that we didn't need anyone acting the fool & giving people any excuses like "see how those people are?" & everyone acted accordingly.

I believe that most of our leaders full well understand that in this day & age, it's not wise to push the envelope of violence. I believe that in the 60s, there was no other choice because people were tired of turning the other cheek & there are times when the only thing that people understand is violence. But in this day & age, that approach would result in one bloody mess, as these day, the brothers are also armed.

But I'm proud to say that during our recent protests, they've been free of violence & I've yet to hear of any violence during the current protests, so I don't believe that anyone really wants that. With that said, I also understand that they simply can't keep turning a blind eye to situations such as this & something must be done in order to prevent these occurrences.

[ms_m]

I hope you're right Juice. Violence is what started this recent event, violence will not stop it.

I've gotten hooked on Al Jazeera, it has it good points as well as bad but overall it brings a perspective to events that you don't get from US news. Sometimes it's embarrassing to watch foreigners come up with more intelligent and insightful comments on this issues than people right here in the US. Talk about scary....ignorant folks are scaring the hell out of me and they seem to be multiplying by the day here Juice. It's not all right wing extremist and Repubs either...

[ms_m]

Yep, let's focus on who is a racist and who should wear hoodies while others are passing laws to legally kill us. geeze...what's it going to take to wake us up?



The NRA Wants the Law Protecting Trayvon Martin's Killer in All 50 States
By Nick Baumann and Dave Gilson
| Wed Mar. 21, 2012 3:27 PM PDT


The National Rifle Association continues to press more states to adopt Florida-style "stand your ground" laws like the one that's made it difficult to prosecute George Zimmerman, the self-appointed neighborhood watch captain who shot and killed 17-year-old Trayvon Martin in Sanford, Florida, in late February. Zimmerman has claimed self-defense despite the fact that Martin was unarmed. Since "stand your ground" laws allow people who feel threatened to use deadly force—even if they have an opportunity, as Zimmerman did, to safely avoid a confrontation—Zimmerman has not been arrested or charged. [[If you haven't heard about the Martin case, get the full rundown in our explainer.)

The proliferation of these laws is part of a deliberate lobbying campaign by the NRA. In 2005, at the NRA's urging, Florida became the first state to pass a "stand your ground" law. Before that, most states required you to retreat from a confrontation unless you were inside your own home. Now 24 states have these "stand your ground" laws, which critics call "shoot first" laws [[Gawker's pseudonymous blogger "Mobuto Sese Seko" calls the laws "a great, legally roving murder bubble") because they authorize citizens to use deadly force even if the person who makes them feel threatened is, like Martin, unarmed.

http://motherjones.com/mojo/2012/03/nra-trayvon-martin

[marv2]

Keep your eyes on this Joe Oliver. You really can't miss him as he has been on just about every news program around the clock since early yesterday. He is really something else.........

[Jerry Oz]

The NRA will only be happy when everybody is walking around strapped, Old West style. And I saw Joe Oliver. He has nothing to say but gets chippy if someone questions him on any specific aspect of the case. Sounds like he could use a heaping plate of STFU.

[marv2]

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/joe-olivers-weird-coongoon-george-zimmerman-defense-it-was-a-compliment/


Former reporter and news anchor Joe Oliver continued his media tour on behalf of his friend George Zimmerman, who claims he killed 17 year-old Trayvon Martin in self defense, with an appearance on MSNBC’s Hardball. Among several inaccurate or contradictory claims, Oliver offered a bizarre explanation of the 911 tape in which Zimmerman appears to grumble “f**kin’ coons” moments before shooting Trayvon to death.

As Zimmerman’s friend, Joe Oliver’s take should be expected to be somewhat one-sided, but he made several statements that were misleading or outright false. He referred to a leaked police report of George Zimmerman’s account as “the report that was released today,” and that it “indicates that Trayvon came up to George and was the aggressor.”

Yes, that “report” “indicates” that because it was coming from George Zimmerman himself. Oliver used similarly parsed words in an earlier interview with Fox News, speaking of the moment the “gun went off,” and trying to raise the possibility that the shooting was accidental, in contradiction of Zimmerman’s claim of self defense.

But Oliver told an outright falsehood when he said that “there are witness accounts to verify that” Trayvon was the aggressor, and that “from the accounts that I’ve heard, it was Trayvon that threw the first punch that knocked George down and broke his nose.”

The only account that says Trayvon made the first physical contact is Zimmerman’s. All of the other witnesses’ accounts begin with the struggle already in progress, except one. The only surviving witness to Zimmerman’s first contact with Trayvon says it was Zimmerman who accosted Trayvon Martin. Whether you believe her or not, to claim that there are witnesses to that first contact who support Zimmerman’s story is a lie.

But the most bizarre thing about Oliver’s interview with host Chris Matthews was his explanation for that racially-charged 911 call.

“Were you surprised when you heard he used the racial slur?” Matthews asked. “The f’ing c-word. Were you surprised he used a term like that?”

Oliver said he’d listened to the tape over and over, and concluded that Zimmerman had either said “coon” or “goon,” and proceeded to offer strange mitigations for each. “There are a lot of parts of this country where people proudly call themselves coon-asses, Louisiana, in particular” and added that he didn’t know “too many people under 40 that use that term as a racial slur.”

I’m not even sure what he’s saying there…that Trayvon ventriloquated the word “coon” into Zimmerman’s phone as a boast about the Cajun heritage of his own ass? What the effing eff is he talking about?

Oliver also has Zimmerman covered on the “goon” front. “Goon, I’ve been informed by my 17-year-old daughter that, among her peers, that’s a term of endearment.”

So, now, 28 year-old George Zimmerman is a peer to 17 year-old girls? What the eff is this guy talking about?

The answer is simple. Instead of simply being an honest character witness for his friend, instead of just saying “The George Zimmerman I know could never have shot a young man in cold blood,” Joe Oliver has elected to deceive, mislead, and muddy the waters. If the media are going to continue to enable this, they need to start calling him on it.

[ms_m]

Just saw an excellent report on Al Jazeera about this case and they came at it from a different way from what I've seen so far. They visited multiple community watch programs throughout Florida and discovered they all had the same rules. You are only the eyes and ears of the community. You do not approach or try to apprehend anyone and under no circumstances are your allowed to carry a firearm.

These programs have been very successful in reducing crime without any fatalities. Combining that with the knowledge that Zimmerman was not a community watch member in the neighborhood and he broke all the rules even if he had been, seems like a great angle to promote and push.

[Jerry Oz]

My eyes are open a lot because of this. At lunch today, I saw at least 12 co-workers wearing hoodies including one supervisor and two females. Of that number, six were black, five were white, and one was Asian. There were many more seen with them on the warehouse floor. I tried to imagine anyone thinking of any of them as a hoodlum but was not successful.

A contractor buddy of mine who is staunchly conservative stopped by and he started on the hoodie mitigation factor and I told him to stop before he started. When I told him there are hundreds of kids wearing hooded sweatshirts on every college in America and nobody sees them as thugs, he didn't have a response. This case is only about two things: Zimmerman's actions and the police department's inaction.

[smark21]

Interesting take on the situation. Certainly describes a former member here, BobC. http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/03/26/why-conservatives-are-smearing-trayvon-martin-s-reputation.html

[ms_m]

Agree Jerry Oz.

I was listening to a young Black banker from Charlotte talking about walking to his complex and watching a woman cross the street when she saw him coming...ironically, they were going to the same complex and he was wearing a suit. Making it about the hoodie is a distraction.

[GeeTee(HPK)]

I guess I've been away too long,but here's something I would like to share from singer Sinead O'Connor. It was posted on her website,and has been shared on various media sites. It's a bit lengthy,but worth reading ...

http://nouaintradio.com/2012/03/24/sinead-oconner-goes-in-on-trayvon-martin-hip-hop-and-the-black-community/

[ms_m]

GeeTee, heads are exploding all over the world, especially among evangelicals.:)

This is something I think many of us have heard all our lives but there is a PBS documentary [[I can't remember the title) that traces the exact region in Africa and even tribe from which anthropologist have said all of mankind descends. It's fascinating and makes convincing arguments with evidence.

[Jerry Oz]

Agree Jerry Oz.

I was listening to a young Black banker from Charlotte talking about walking to his complex and watching a woman cross the street when she saw him coming...ironically, they were going to the same complex and he was wearing a suit. Making it about the hoodie is a distraction.

Documentarian Michael Moore had a show on NBC about 20 years ago [[I think it was called "TV Nation")that featured his unique perspective of the world. One of the things that he did was post the somewhat wealthy [[at least at that time), classically trained and well-renowned actor Yaphet Kotto [[wearing a business suit) on a street corner in Manhattan and had him try to flag down a taxi. Two blocks away, he had a recent parollee for double murder try to flag down taxis. That guy was wearing leisurely clothes and his hair was on his shoulders. Time and again, taxis would pass Kotto up to pick up the murderer, not knowing who either was.

[ms_m]

Time and again, taxis would pass Kotto up to pick up the murderer, not knowing who either was.

DAYMN!

I wonder if they ever told the cab driver what they had done? I have a feeling they would have thought twice about pre-judging someone if they had. The sad thing about all of this Jerry Oz, many times people don't even realize what they are doing and when you point it out they get defensive.

Hell, we all tend to pre-judge people at times but if we are aware of it and own it, most people will think before automatically acting on those feelings.

[Roberta75]

Sean Hannity has to be the vilest man on television IMO.

http://www.newshounds.us/hannity_s_phony_concern_over_rush_to_judgment_in_t rayvon_martin_case_03282012

[MotownSteve]

There is nothing really new here. http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/27/10894561-zimmerman-accused-of-domestic-violence-fighting-with-a-police-officer But, it shows Zimmerman's past concisely. I must say, from everything I've read, this comes down to two things for sure. Zimmerman shot Martin without a valid reason. And, the Sanford failed to do their job. And the more I think about it, Martin's past has nothing to do with the incident. Zimmerman's does.

[Roberta75]

There is nothing really new here. http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/27/10894561-zimmerman-accused-of-domestic-violence-fighting-with-a-police-officer But, it shows Zimmerman's past concisely. I must say, from everything I've read, this comes down to two things for sure. Zimmerman shot Martin without a valid reason. And, the Sanford failed to do their job. And the more I think about it, Martin's past has nothing to do with the incident. Zimmerman's does.

And Zimmerman should be arrested immediately.

Roberta

[MotownSteve]

Sean Hannity has to be the vilest man on television IMO.

http://www.newshounds.us/hannity_s_phony_concern_over_rush_to_judgment_in_t rayvon_martin_case_03282012

You are given to understatement. I don't think he is fit to breathe the air the rest of us breathe.

[MotownSteve]

I just heard this on PoliticsNation http://www.thegrio.com/specials/trayvon-martin/source-sanford-police-chief-state-attorney-made-zimmerman-no-charge-call-in-person.php

[juicefree20]

I don't have much time, but I wanted to pass through to say a couple of things.

For what it's worth, today's New York Daily News reports that the lead homicide detective, Chris Serino wanted to arrest Zimmerman for manslaughter on the night of the shooting. He didn't believe Zimmerman's account & signed an affidavit on the night of Feb. 26th which stated that he didn't believe Zimmerman's account of the incident.

He was overruled by the state's Attorney's Office due to "lack of evidence" to make an arrest.

On another note, this whole attitude as regards how many people view blacks, as well as how young the attitude take hold within some, can be found by the recent response to the movie "Hunger Games".

Whereas Blacks, Latinos, Asians & others have had absolutely no problem with the fact that iconic characters such as "Rambo", "Don Corleone", "Dirty Harry", "Rocky", "Luke Skywaker" & any damn hero you choose to name WAS NOT of their particular ethnicity, some folks of the ''majority'' & some very young people at that, were so offended that 2 primary characters of "Hunger Games" happened to be black.

Despite the fact that the book clearly identified these characters as having "DARK BROWN SKIN", some obviously missed that descriptive & via Twitter, some dropped N-bombs, one questioned why ALL of the good charcters had to be black? One voiced the opinion that they were upset at having felt so much sympathy & crying for one of the characters when reading the book, only to see the movie to discover that that sympathetic charcter she'd shed tears for, proved to be black.

Still others whom had followed & enjoyed the book, had the movie "ruined" for them because two of the sympathetic characters turned out to be black.

This serves to underscore a few fundamental problems...

1. It seems that some feel that only people who look like them are worthy of sympathy or empathy
2. Only folks whom look like them can be regarded to be a "GOOD'' guy or gal.

which seems to indicate that they seem to believe...

3. Blacks aren't capable of being heroic, much less be ''good'' guys or gals whom are worth crying for, feeling empathy toward, much less being people worth rooting for.

That is, unless they're singing, dancing, dunking a ball or hitting one over a fence.

If these type of attitudes are the sort which people harbor in their hearts over a damned movie, then exactly what must be their attitudes when it comes to the real world?

People of all ethnicitics have supported movies featuring mainstream actors & actresses for decades & never seem bothered by the fact that those stars don't look like they do. Yet two girls whom were described in a manner which seems to indicate that if not black, then they were pretty damn close to it & a lot of folks [[young ones at that whom are supposed to be more enlightened these days) lost their minds at the visual.

Which is what makes books such a wonderful thing. Despite the words & descriptives which lie within the book, one can close their eyes & make their hero or heroine whomever or whatever they want them to be.

And if the character is noble enough, why they can even convince themselves that the character is exactly like the person staring back at them from their mirror[[s).

And folks keep insisting that folks wearing towels on their heads are the ones whom we need to be worried about.

If that's the case, then they damn sure aren't the only ones to worry about because all terrorists don't come bearing bombs.

Some come armed with bigoted ideas, prejudices & sensibilities about fellow AMERICANS from about 60 years ago & don't seem very inclined to give them up.

Not even for make-believe characters from a book.

[ms_m]

He was overruled by the state's Attorney's Office due to "lack of evidence" to make an arrest.

Well that explains why that crook of a Gov Scott, suddenly jumped into action to do the right thing and call a special investigation....the plot thickens.

[Jerry Oz]

Excellent post, Juicefree. Two thoughts come to mind:
1. People envisioning their heroes with similarities to themselves is akin to man recreating God in his own image. That's why it's entirely reasonable for some to imagine Christ with blonde hair and blue eyes although he lived in the Middle East 2,000 years ago. I'm not trying to start this argument, just making the point. It would absolutely create millions of atheists immediately if they were to find out that Christ had brown skin, thick hair, and a semitic [[Jewish/Arab) nose. It would be as unacceptable as imagining fictional characters being black. For the record, His appearance doesn't matter to me.
2. The terrorists who caused the 9/11 tragedy made a pointed effort to Anglicize themselves; shaving and wearing their hair and clothes in the least "ethnic" way to make sure they brought no attention to themselves. Curiously, Juan Williams and his ilk have their Islamic radar go full tilt when they see the most obvious people of middle eastern origins. It seems to me the least dangerous ones would be the ones wearing full beards and Arabic garb, but the ones least likely to be fit the "terrorist" profile are the ones who catch the brunt of the hate.

[ms_m]

but the ones least likely to be fit the "terrorist" profile are the ones who catch the brunt of the hate.


Like the Iraqi-American woman living near San Diego who was beaten to death a few days go....

[Jerry Oz]

Like the Iraqi-American woman living near San Diego who was beaten to death a few days go....

Exactly like that.

[P-Shark: The Revenge]

Lionel Ritchie on Piers right now. Will be repeated 3 & 6 hrs later

[rta5225]

Here's the latest article. There were no bruises and no blood on Zimmerman. Here's another lie he has told.

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/trayvon-martin-case-exclusive-surveillance-video-george-zimmerman/story?id=16022897

[soulster]

Here's the video:
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[soulster]

Disgusting.

[marv2]

I cannot wait to hear how Joe Oliver is going to explain why there is no visible blood or injuries on George Zimmerman in the police surveillance video tape only moments after he is shot Trayvon Martin and taken in for questioning. Hmmmmm.........

"Well, you see, you see George comes from a long line of Vampires, but he really is a great guyyyy.,........"

[Jerry Oz]

I've had a broken nose. Even to wipe away the invisible blood would leave a swollen nose and two black eyes. I'm interested in seeing whether George went to the hospital before or after he was questioned.

[soulster]

I cannot wait to hear how Joe Oliver is going to explain why there is no visible blood or injuries on George Zimmerman in the police surveillance video tape only moments after he is shot Trayvon Martin and taken in for questioning. Hmmmmm.........


Oh, now he's trying to say that the video is "grainy".


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/46890073#46890073

Every time the right-wing/Fox news tries to make excuses for Zimmerman and demonize Martin, they wind up looking worse.

[marv2]

Oh, now he's trying to say that the video is "grainy".


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/46890073#46890073

It was pretty clear to me sitting here in NY. I can clearly see the back of his head had not been injured in anyway. What made it most evident is the fact that Mr. Zimmerman had his hair cut very close. There were no cuts, bruises or abrasions there.

[marv2]

I wonder how much and who is paying Joe Oliver?

[marv2]

A question for everyone. Based on what we know now, at this moment, do you think George Zimmerman will get away with killing Trayvon Martin?

[ms_m]

I don't think he'll walk Marv but he has to be arrested before anything can happen and that concerns me the most right now. If we don't keep the pressure on his arrest may never happen.

We live in a culture where the next shiny bauble will capture your attention and I'd hate to see that happen in this case.

[soulster]

A question for everyone. Based on what we know now, at this moment, do you think George Zimmerman will get away with killing Trayvon Martin?

I can't say for sure, but I have a feeling that he will be charged on some ridiculous manslaughter charges and an arrest warrant will be served. He will run, and the right-wingers will defend him. It will become part of the presidential campaign, further dividing up the country. Anyway, that's my prediction.

[MotownSteve]

It was pretty clear to me sitting here in NY. I can clearly see the back of his head had not been injured in anyway. What made it most evident is the fact that Mr. Zimmerman had his hair cut very close. There were no cuts, bruises or abrasions there.

Sitting a few miles from you I agree. Furthermore, if he had been injured, it seems to be his lawyer would be producing hospital records, EMT records, police photos of the injuries. As we all know, there has been nothing produced to support Zimmerman's contention. Furthermore, from MSNBC: Eugene O'Donnell, of John Jay College of Criminal Justice, said the video shows "that it's beyond dispute that there are no serious injuries, physical injuries, he's not in a hospital."

[soulster]

Sitting a few miles from you I agree. Furthermore, if he had been injured, it seems to be his lawyer would be producing hospital records, EMT records, police photos of the injuries. As we all know, there has been nothing produced to support Zimmerman's contention. Furthermore, from MSNBC: Eugene O'Donnell, of John Jay College of Criminal Justice, said the video shows "that it's beyond dispute that there are no serious injuries, physical injuries, he's not in a hospital."

That won't stop Zimmerman's supporters. Tuesday night, Zimmerman's attorney ran off the set of Lawrence O'Donnel's show. He quickly left the building. My guess is that he didn't want to deal with the hard questions. http://thelastword.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/27/10888106-watch-out-for-zimmermans-lawyer

I guess Roger Ailes will give him a home at Fox News.

[Jerry Oz]

ABC News asked the attorney if he could see any injuries and he said he couldn't tell what was going on. When they suggested that he said his client had to be seen at a hospital, instead of saying there was record of his receiving treatment, he responded with "So, you have your answer." He said that poor George is living in hiding and his life was ruined by this incident.

And I am one who believes they will decide that there is not enough evidence and that he will walk.

[marv2]

I've had a broken nose. Even to wipe away the invisible blood would leave a swollen nose and two black eyes. I'm interested in seeing whether George went to the hospital before or after he was questioned.

According by what I just heard 5 mins ago on HLN [[Headline News), the video tape of Zimmerman at the police station was time stamped for 7:18 pm that night.........just under a half hour from the time of the incident. So if he went to a hospital at all, it would have been AFTER being taken to the police station. The big question is now.......WHERE IS THE BLOOD?! There is not even a trace of blood on his T-shirt, but he allegedly had a broken nose.

[MotownSteve]

ABC News asked the attorney if he could see any injuries and he said he couldn't tell what was going on. When they suggested that he said his client had to be seen at a hospital, instead of saying there was record of his receiving treatment, he responded with "So, you have your answer." He said that poor George is living in hiding and his life was ruined by this incident.

And I am one who believes they will decide that there is not enough evidence and that he will walk.

And if you are right it will be a travesty of immense proportions. If I was on a jury I'd find Zimmerman guilty with no hesitation or doubt.

[marv2]

I don't think he'll walk Marv but he has to be arrested before anything can happen and that concerns me the most right now. If we don't keep the pressure on his arrest may never happen.

We live in a culture where the next shiny bauble will capture your attention and I'd hate to see that happen in this case.

Now you have struck at something that I have been thinking about most of the day. If there was not such an outcry for justice from Trayvon's parents and the public, would this murder go completely unpunished? I don't know, I may have missed something, but was it the intent of the Sanford Police to just let George Zimmerman completely go and to later explain to Trayvon's parents how he ended dead and there was nothing that could be done about it?

[MotownSteve]

Now you have struck at something that I have been thinking about most of the day. If there was not such an outcry for justice from Trayvon's parents and the public, would this murder go completely unpunished? I don't know, I may have missed something, but was it the intent of the Sanford Police to just let George Zimmerman completely go and to later explain to Trayvon's parents how he ended dead and there was nothing that could be done about it?

But now it appears that a homicide detective with the Sanford PD wanted him arrested and it was a state DAG that nixed it.

[marv2]

Here is something else that I found very disturbing. They finally showed an interview with Zimmerman's father. They would not show his face of course. In the interview, he stated flat out that there was a lot of hate being directed toward his family and George....He clearly said "hate from the President"...... That statement told me a lot about this man as I have not heard anything remotely hateful regarding this case from Barak Obama. This man's comment gave me a glimpse into not only his political views, but also his racial views because he also only mentioned African American organizations when he went through his list of those directing hate towards his family. He did not mention anything regarding the general populations disgust with this whole incident.

[MotownSteve]

Here is something else that I found very disturbing. They finally showed an interview with Zimmerman's father. They would not show his face of course. In the interview, he stated flat out that there was a lot of hate being directed toward his family and George....He clearly said "hate from the President"...... That statement told me a lot about this man as I have not heard anything remotely hateful regarding this case from Barak Obama. This man's comment gave me a glimpse into not only his political views, but also his racial views because he also only mentioned African American organizations when he went through his list of those directing hate towards his family. He did not mention anything regarding the general populations disgust with this whole incident.

Excellent point marv2. As for what he said, he only knows what his son told him and as we've seen the younger Zimmerman is perfectly capable of changing stories.

[Jerry Oz]

I think you are all missing a valuable and sobering point: Even if this winds up with a conviction, we still lost because it took the entire country to rally and display outrage. That won't happen the next time or the time after that. I still have doubts this tool will be convicted but I'm not encouraged if he is because it literally took millions to effect anything that resembles "justice" in this case.

Only the remarkable circumstances of this particular case permitted the world to know what the hell happened in Sanford, Florida and even one "victory" on this front pales in the face of how many times we come out on the losing end of this BS. Not to be pessimistic, but damn! Emmett Till would be 70 years old right now [[he died 57 years ago) and in 53 years, we'll be saying the same thing about Trayvon Martin.

[ms_m]

@ Jerry Oz....
by george I think you've got it!

Although I'm not quite as pessimistic about this as you are Jerry, I feel you 100%. As I said earlier, before our young men were being gunned down, they were hanging from trees. This sht is not going away...point blank....so the next step is, how do we find a way to get around it so people like Zimmerman don't literally get away with murder? We have to get better laws....we have to get better law makers.

Mean people exist, racist people exist....all this time we've talked about it and pointed fingers....has anything changed their existence...NO...and it never will.

What will eventually happen, many will slide back under the rock they came out from under but they will still be here.

To put it bluntly, eff a racist and the horse they ride in on. I just can't get that worked up about racist anymore...what I can do is work to make sure if they commit a crime, their arse will be punished.

[soulster]

Excellent point marv2. As for what he said, he only knows what his son told him and as we've seen the younger Zimmerman is perfectly capable of changing stories.

With Robert Zimmerman's comments on Faux news, I can see where his son probably got his racist attitudes.

[marv2]

I think you are all missing a valuable and sobering point: Even if this winds up with a conviction, we still lost because it took the entire country to rally and display outrage. That won't happen the next time or the time after that. I still have doubts this tool will be convicted but I'm not encouraged if he is because it literally took millions to effect anything that resembles "justice" in this case.

Only the remarkable circumstances of this particular case permitted the world to know what the hell happened in Sanford, Florida and even one "victory" on this front pales in the face of how many times we come out on the losing end of this BS. Not to be pessimistic, but damn! Emmett Till would be 70 years old right now [[he died 57 years ago) and in 53 years, we'll be saying the same thing about Trayvon Martin.

Yes Jerry that is all true. I have had similar conversations with friends and family all week. Why does he have to take millions of people to get justice for one AMERICAN teenager?

[marv2]

With Robert Zimmerman's fathers comments on Faux news, I can see where his son probably got his racist attitudes.

BANG! You got it! That was the exact thought I had when I heard him and that was the point I was hoping people would get from the senior Zimmerman 's interview. Yes it was a local Fox News affiliate. I believe WOFL in Orlando.

George Zimmerman's brother was just interviewed by Pier Morgan tonight and it/he absolutely turned my stomach! Luckily, Mike Tyson was the guess for the second segment and when asked what he thought of Zimmerman's bro's interview Mike responded.." I don't know........he could be a seasoned enough of a liar to come hear to talk to you."! Mike also stated that there was no way that kid [[Trayvon) should be dead.

[MotownSteve]

Now Zimmerman's brother puts his two cents in saying his brother had no choice. No choice? He should have stayed in his car. And another witness says he saw two men on the ground when a shot was fired and one them just walked away with no signs of any injury. This all on CBS NYC news.

[Jerry Oz]

Now Zimmerman's brother puts his two cents in saying his brother had no choice. No choice? He should have stayed in his car. And another witness says he saw two men on the ground when a shot was fired and one them just walked away with no signs of any injury. This all on CBS NYC news.
Tell him he should stayed in the car and you'll find out that he had a "right" to get out. This trumps the kid's right to walk home from the store without being accosted and shot, I guess.

[smark21]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/30/opinion/the-gated-community-mentality.html?ref=opinion

Article on gated communities

[marv2]

Now Zimmerman's brother puts his two cents in saying his brother had no choice. No choice? He should have stayed in his car. And another witness says he saw two men on the ground when a shot was fired and one them just walked away with no signs of any injury. This all on CBS NYC news.

What they, the Zimmermans and their supporters are attempting to do is to portray an even playing field. They want to put in the minds of the public that George Zimmerman was as much a victim as Trayvon Martin. That the kid was the aggressor, he followed Zimmerman back to his car, that he jumped on him and was beating him senseless on the concrete sidewalk all the while telling him "that you are going to die tonight", while of course reaching for Zimmerman's gun that he magically knew Zimmerman was carrying........

They want to public to believe that George Zimmerman had no choice but to shoot Trayvon Martin! They want everyone to forget the fact that Zimmerman was instructed not to follow Martin by the police. They want everyone to forget that Martin was not doing anything but walking home from the store when he was accosted by Zimmerman. This is what Zimmerman's father, brother, Joe Oliver and his attorney are pushing at the public daily!

[Jerry Oz]

They want to public to believe that George Zimmerman had no choice but to shoot Trayvon Martin! They want everyone to forget the fact that Zimmerman was instructed not to follow Martin by the police. They want everyone to forget that Martin was not doing anything but walking home from the store when he was accosted by Zimmerman. This is what Zimmerman's father, brother, Joe Oliver and his attorney are pushing at the public daily!

Don't forget Geraldo, Hannity, and Tucker Carlson in that peanut gallery.

[soulster]

Tell him he should stayed in the car and you'll find out that he had a "right" to get out. This trumps the kid's right to walk home from the store without being accosted and shot, I guess.

That he should have stayed in his vehicle like he was clearly told should be enough to kill Zimmerman's argument. But, he has to be arrested first.

[Jerry Oz]

Man, you have to love concealed carry. Except for being strapped, Zimmerman wouldn't have felt encouraged to confront someone; I'm sure of it. The coward decided he was not just there for neighborhood watch, but actually for active law enforcement based on the strength of having a gun.

Also, props to the criminal justice system that reduced his battery charges to misdemeanors. I know that is routine, but did that permit him to be approved for concealed carry?

[ms_m]

Jerry Oz, one of those charges was assaulting a police officer, that's a felony and he still was able to get a gun permit. His father is a retired judge who called in favors.

He has to be arrested and charged. Once this goes to trial his lawyer will have to do better than try and push a lie about a broken nose but if he doesn't get arrested...

[soulster]

Man, you have to love concealed carry. Except for being strapped, Zimmerman wouldn't have felt encouraged to confront someone; I'm sure of it. The coward decided he was not just there for neighborhood watch, but actually for active law enforcement based on the strength of having a gun.

Also, props to the criminal justice system that reduced his battery charges to misdemeanors. I know that is routine, but did that permit him to be approved for concealed carry?

He was a wannabe cop trying to live out his fantasy who was apparently homicidal, too. Imagine if he had become a cop.

[Roberta75]

I pray Zimmerman will be arrested very soon.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-investigator-wanted-charge-george-zimmerman-manslaughter/story?id=16011674#.T3YOe65luHm

[Roberta75]

Wearing a hoodie on the House floor.
That got Representative Bobby Rush thrown out on Wednesday, even as he quoted from the Bible on justice and the end of oppression. Rep. Rush is one of millions calling for justice for Trayvon Martin, a young black man in a hoodie, gunned down last month in Sanford, Florida. Trayvon's killer, George Zimmerman, still hasn't been arrested—and the wheels of justice can't turn until he is.

Tomorrow in Sanford, MoveOn members will join Trayvon's family, the NAACP, SEIU, and other allies in a march for justice. And across the country, we can show our solidarity with Saturday's march by taking a picture of ourselves with a hoodie and making it our profile picture on Facebook and Twitter.

This campaign began with a cry for justice from Trayvon's parents, and grew online through huge petitions [[including one by MoveOn member Maria Roach) and a massive response on social media from celebrities and millions of everyday people standing against racism and racial profiling. So, while Trayvon's family keeps the pressure on in the streets of Sanford, we need to keep up the pressure online, where this campaign grew into a national movement.

Click below to make your stand for Trayvon [[and don't worry—we have handy instructions on how to change your Facebook or Twitter profile pic):
Join the march for justice online by changing your profile picture for Trayvon. [[http://pol.moveon.org/posthoodiephoto/?id=38316-9003611-soldrLx&t=2)

George Zimmerman followed Trayvon, a young black man in a hoodie, because he looked "suspicious." Zimmerman made an unjustified assumption about who Trayvon was, and that assumption led to Trayvon's death. That's why we have to keep the pressure on the system to make sure justice is served.

We've partnered with the creators of MillionHoodi.es, along with the NAACP, ColorOfChange, and other allies to make this online solidarity movement huge, with hundreds of thousands of us posting our hoodies photos in social media—and making them our profile picture. But in order to be effective, people need to see hoodie photos everywhere they look online. So click below to change your profile pic and join the millions of other hoodies online for Trayvon Martin on Saturday.
Join the million hoodie movement for justice for Trayvon by changing your profile photo for Saturday's march. [[http://pol.moveon.org/posthoodiephoto/?id=38316-9003611-soldrLx&t=3)

[Jerry Oz]

More fun and games in the USA:
http://www.moviesaboutgladiators.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/black-snake-moan.jpg
Husband and wife shot as children watch
RAEFORD, N.C. [[WTVD) -- Hoke County deputies have charged a man with shooting a husband and wife outside their home in the Rockfish community Saturday evening.
Sheriff Hubert Peterkin said it happened around 7:30 at 110 T.C. Jones Road.

Neighbors said 35-year-old Tommy Brown was playing basketball with his sons and was concerned because neighbor John Oliver Hill Jr., 48, was shooting a gun in the area
"And this nut from across the street - who had been outside shooting his gun - the gentleman asked him if he would quit because of all the kids outside playing. And so he took it upon his self to come over here and he just shot the man. Shot him in the head," said neighbor Lois Clairmont.
Deputies said the weapon was a .30-30 hunting rifle. The three boys who witnessed the shooting ran inside to get their mother and when she came out, Hill allegedly shot her twice.
Thalia Rebecca Mook, 35, was taken to Cape Fear Valley Medical Center where she died Sunday.
Peterkin said when his officers arrived, Hill had returned to his home on Philippi Church Road - around the corner from the Brown's house. A short standoff ensued, and Hill surrendered after about 30 minutes.
Ten weapons were seized at Hill's home.
Hill was charged with two counts of first-degree murder. He was being held without bond in the Hoke County Jail.

And also this:

Sick, Elderly Black Man Was Tased, Then Shot To Death By White Plains PD After Triggering His Medical Alert [[http://crooksandliars.com/susie-madrak/sick-elderly-black-man-was-shot-death)
There are far too many of these stories. Maybe now, thanks to the Trayvon Martin case, internal affairs investigators will actually do their jobs and reporters won't be quite so eager to accept the official version of events. This case in November [[http://www.democracynow.org/2012/3/29/killed_at_home_white_plains_ny), featured on Democracy Now!, involved a 68-year-old man who accidentally pressed his medical alarm and ended up shot to death by police:
JUAN GONZALEZ: As the shooting death of Trayvon Martin continues to draw national attention, today we look at another controversial shooting of an African-American male that has received far less scrutiny. On the morning of November 19th, a 68-year-old former marine named Kenneth Chamberlain with a heart condition accidentally pressed the button on his medical alert system while sleeping. Responding to the alert, police officers from the city of White Plains, New York, arrived at Chamberlain’s apartment in a public housing complex shortly after 5 a.m. By the time the police left the apartment, Kenneth Chamberlain was dead, shot twice in the chest by a police officer inside his home. Police gained entry to Chamberlain’s apartment only after they took his front door off its hinges. Officers first shot him with a taser, then a beanbag shotgun, and then with live ammunition.
AMY GOODMAN: Police have insisted the use of force was warranted. They said Kenneth Chamberlain was emotionally disturbed and had pulled a knife on the officers. This is David Chong, public safety commissioner in White Plains.
DAVID CHONG: The officers first used an electronic taser, which was discharged, hit the victim, and had no effect. While the officers were retreating, the officers then used a shotgun, a beanbag shotgun.
AMY GOODMAN: Relatives of Kenneth Chamberlain have questioned the police portrayal of events that led to his death, and they say audio and video recorded at the scene back up their case. According to the family, Kenneth Chamberlain can be heard on an audio recording of his call to the medical alert system operator saying, quote, "Please leave me alone. I’m 68 with a heart condition. Why are you doing this to me? Can you please leave me alone?" Officers allegedly responded by calling Chamberlain a racial slur while urging him to open the door. The audio recording of the incident has not been made public and remains in the possession of the Westchester District Attorney’s office.
In early December, Kenneth Chamberlain, a retired marine, was buried with military honors. The family posted video of part of the ceremony.
Several months after his death, the name of the officer who killed Kenneth Chamberlain has yet to be released. The DA has vowed to convene a grand jury to determine if any of the officers should face charges.
We invited the White Plains Police Department and the Westchester DA’s office on to the program, but they declined to join us or issue a comment. But we are joined by Kenneth Chamberlain, Jr., the son of Kenneth Chamberlain, Sr., the victim, and by two of the family’s attorneys. Mayo Bartlett is the former chief of the Bias Crimes Unit of the Westchester County District Attorney’s office and the former chair of the Westchester County Human Rights Commission. Randolph McLaughlin is a longtime civil rights attorney. He teaches at Pace Law School.
We welcome you all to Democracy Now! Our condolences to your family, Kenneth Chamberlain, on the death of your father.
KENNETH CHAMBERLAIN, JR.: Thank you.
AMY GOODMAN: Tell us what you understand happened early in the morning of November 19th.
KENNETH CHAMBERLAIN, JR.: Well, it’s my understanding that, from what I’ve gathered right now, that my father accidentally pushed his medical pendant around his neck. He could have possibly turned over on it. We don’t know. We can only speculate about that.
AMY GOODMAN: Why did he wear it?
KENNETH CHAMBERLAIN, JR.: He has a heart condition, and he also suffered from COPD. And when he—the pendant was triggered—
AMY GOODMAN: You’re holding that in—
KENNETH CHAMBERLAIN, JR.: Yes.
AMY GOODMAN: —his hand.
KENNETH CHAMBERLAIN, JR.: This is his pendant right here. It was triggered, and the medical company—there’s a box inside his home. The medical company asked him if he was all right. They didn’t get a response. So, automatically, if you don’t get a response, they send medical services to your house. They informed the police that they are responding to a medical emergency, not a crime. And once they arrived at my father’s home, my father did tell them that he was OK. But for some reason, they wanted to gain entry into my father’s home. I don’t know why. And in the audio, you hear my father telling them that he’s fine, he’s OK.
JUAN GONZALEZ: Now, this is an important point, that there was audio going on throughout this between the firm and your father.
KENNETH CHAMBERLAIN, JR.: Correct.
JUAN GONZALEZ: And so, much of the activity of the police was caught on this audio.
KENNETH CHAMBERLAIN, JR.: Yes, it was.
AMY GOODMAN: So the box on the wall records everything that’s—
KENNETH CHAMBERLAIN, JR.: It’s actually a box that just sat on his table in the—in his dining room area. It just sat there. And it’s connected to the phone company. So if he does trigger it, as I said, you hear a loud beeping noise. And then the operator, from their central station, will come on, and they say, "Mr. Chamberlain, are you OK? You triggered your alarm. Is everything all right?" And, of course, if they don’t get a response, they then contact the officials.
JUAN GONZALEZ: Now you were able to hear this audio because the DA’s office allowed you to hear it? How did you—
KENNETH CHAMBERLAIN, JR.: Yes.
JUAN GONZALEZ: But it has not yet been released.
KENNETH CHAMBERLAIN, JR.: No, it hasn’t.
AMY GOODMAN: So, continue. You hear your father through the door telling the police he’s OK. This is about 5:00 in the morning?
KENNETH CHAMBERLAIN, JR.: Yes. He’s saying that he’s OK. He’s saying that he did not call for them. But they were very insistent. They were banging on the door, banging on the door, banging on the door. So you hear one of the officers say to him, "Well, you pushed your—you triggered your alarm now." He said, "That’s because I want you to leave me alone." And they just kept telling him, "Open the door. Open the door. Let us see that you’re all right." At some point, the door was cracked open, because the police officers have a taser that has a camera on it, and it also has audio. So you could see where the door was cracked open. So, once you’ve gotten a visual, and you’ve seen that my father is OK, and he’s telling you that he’s OK, why would you still insist on getting into the apartment? Which is the question that I have. And they weren’t responding to a crime. He was sleeping and accidentally triggered his alarm.
JUAN GONZALEZ: And the officers then did what?
KENNETH CHAMBERLAIN, JR.: Ultimately, after using expletives and racial slurs, they broke down the door. You can see on the video from the taser that they fired a taser at him. And I’m assuming that both prongs didn’t go in. He stood about maybe eight to 10 feet away from them with his hands down to his side. And at one point, you hear one of the officers say, "Cut it off." And it was at that point they shot and killed my father.
AMY GOODMAN: They shot him with beanbag also?
KENNETH CHAMBERLAIN, JR.: Well, we didn’t see that. So I can’t—I can’t confirm or deny that.

[ms_m]

Jerry Oz, you seem surprised that things things are happening. People are being murdered everyday all over the country. Many are Blacks, many are White, many are Gays, women, elderly, children etc. I'm not a fan of MSM [[main stream media) but if they started to report murders all over the country in ever city and county, that's all you would hear...and that just in THIS country....check out international news. Crazy is happening everywhere, including hate crimes as well as wars.

After 9-11 I watched people in this country become more and more irrational, insecure and paranoid and I've watched politicians stoke fears...

There have always been unfair and wrong things happening and there always will be but the uptick has been on the rise for a very long time. Too many people were not paying attention and I'm just as much at fault as anyone else.

I truly believe what you put out in the Universe, you get back. Hate, fear, paranoia, distrust, negativity, ignorance, greed and just plain BS....all these things have lead to a country that's losing it's collective mind.

Several weeks ago I was in the grocery store, a guy accidently hit a ladies cart...not her but her cart....she snapped out as if someone had stolen something from her....both the same race and not people of color. I've never seen so many people on such a short fuse in my life and although I saw it escalate after we elected a Black President, I did manage to notice it was happening even before then.

I truly believe in research, reading, etc. [[I'm a fanatic about it ) I truly believe in paying attention and not just the things we are fed through MSM but if you allow yourself to start freaking out at everything going on out here....

There are things we all can do to help to make this a better society and world...no matter if it's large or small but you have to make a step to do something [[and something positive) because if not, you'll find yourself doing nothing but reacting.

I get angry, I can be cynical but at the end of the day, what has that accomplished?

LOL...back in the day Juice and Ralph use to get pissed with me for saying, get pissed and get over it....now they both feel me on it.....LOL. That saying isn't about not caring, it's about realizing , holding on to sht hurts you....you have to let it go.

Jerry Oz, you can't change the world, but you can change how you react to the things in the world and ironically, that makes a change in and of itself. When we start to change our own attitudes [[the only attitudes we can control) we find a way to make a difference...again, no matter how large or small.

Off the soap box now:)....have a better evening....it's rough out here but it's not totally rotten.:)

[P-Shark: The Revenge]

You're so right Ms.M. The gruesome murder of Channon Christain & Christopher Newsom didn't get much coverage until recently. And there was the "Beat Up A White Kid Day" that got swept under the carpet. But since the victims were whites and the perps were blacks, its no big deal. Politically Correctness is just as bad as the extreme right. Criminal should be called out no matter what race, color, creed, sex, age, disabilaty...

https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1RNPN_enUS392US392&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=black+killed+sodomised+white+couple#q=channon+ch ristian&hl=en&safe=off&rlz=1C1RNPN_enUS392US392&prmd=imvnslofd&source=lnms&ei=xmN2T-TYLealiQL2482nDg&sa=X&oi=mode_link&ct=mode&cd=1&ved=0CCIQ_AUoAA&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=32706d09a249e348&biw=1366&bih=643

[ms_m]

...but it's always been happening and I don't think it's about political correctness. [[I wish we could ban that term....ughhhhh....:))

People tend to get caught up only in the things around them so if these incidents are not directly in their universe, they won't know about it and sometimes even when they do, they are wrapped up in their own happenings and lives....but once everyone else is talking about it, THEN they get interested. It can be frustrating but on the flip it's also human.

I live in a racist society. As a Black kid growing up in the segregated south I've known since I was about 5 I lived in a racist society. I lived in a society that degrades women, a society that kills gays and too often anyone people see as "different".

I also live in a society with good and decent people...should I pay more attention to the bad...or should I work to find some kind of balance....even while living in a world that can be totally unbalanced?

[Jerry Oz]

Ms_m, please don't misunderstand my outrage for naivete. I'm more than aware of the attrocities that are taking place and have taken place, just never ready to accept them as the way of the world. If anything, I'm amazed that Trayvon Martin's case has captured the attention of the nation whereas the two cases I attached earlier didn't register a bleep. By the same token, I don't believe that all it takes is one voice or even many voices for things to change. Things are as they are supposed to be, but it's still sad. It's discouraging. At this point, I don't even hold the belief that "things have to change" because obviously, they do not.

[ms_m]

I disagree, it does take one voice but not in the sense one person can make that change. I believe that one voice is heard by another, and then another...but here is the thing Jerry....it's simply not about a voice its about DOING. We can all talk til we are blue in the face but if we are not doing something to make a change, you're right, change will not happen.

[ms_m]

BTW Jerry, I live in NC I knew about the first incident but when I read about it, it never occurred to me it would or should make national news....why would it be....it was a local incident, an incident that probably plays out one way or another all over the country unfortunately.

Check out some of the local news feeds from all over the country, better yet, subscribed to the Southern Poverty Law Center news letter .... warning, you'll get beyond pissed.

I'm not desensitized to any of it and I do the best I can getting involved with various groups and such and I'm sure you do as well but like everyone else....I have things here at home I have to deal with as well...there is only so much I can do or anyone can do in a 24 hour day....all you can do, is what you can do but you have to do something Jerry...because on that score you're right...just a voice won't make anything happen.

Stand your ground is an effed up law....will talking about it, calling it out and the people who get away with murder because of it change the law....or will taking some kind of action do that?

Of course these things should be exposed but once they are then what?

[Jerry Oz]

That's a good question. It doesn't escape me that our "community" galvanizes when the trump is blown and something like the Sanford, Florida case takes on significance. However, after all the lights go off and the cameras have been put on the news vans, there we are where we were before. For the most part, blacks killing blacks, whites killing whites, people killing people. Oh, and conversation is important. It is therapeutic at least and it may influence the next Martin Luther King, Jr. or Malcolm X. So, when I become kind of depressed about this, it's not that I don't think things CAN change. It's that I've lived most of my life by now, and things haven't changed.

[ms_m]

You know, I believe I mentioned I watch/listen to Al Jazeera. It's usually on in the background while I'm surfing all day. I just listened to a report about a young gay man in Chile who was gunned down by Neo Nazi's, shouldn't I be shouting that wrong out to the roof tops? What about the French Algerian citizen who gunned down young Jewish school kids. One little girl he actually chased, caught her by the pony tale and fired point blank into her head. We can move over to Israel where the Palestinians people are being tear gassed and killed right now....

Jerry, we live in a effd up world, we live in a good world too....do whatever you can do, to somehow make a difference, no matter how large or small and that's about all you can do. That's not cold, that's reality.

[ms_m]

I feel ya on the things that haven't changed but don't forget to also look at many of the things that have Jerry.

[ms_m]

I'm old too....been around awhile....even before the Civil Rights Act was passed....LOL

Sometimes you look around and say daymn, this really sucks...but then you hear or see someone doing a hell of a lot worse than you, going through a hell of a lot more than you have ever gone through and you say, daymn, it could be worse.

As effd up as this country can be, I haven't found any other country I would prefer to be....now come Nov that may change and I may have to look for an island and sell sea shells by the sea shore but for now....one day at a time, doing whatever I can do to make sure I don't have to make that kind of a decision.:)

[Jerry Oz]

I agree. Someone once described "news" as media coverage of unusual events. On one hand, the fact that these things still make the news means that they are anomalies to normal interaction. On the other hand, the fact that so many children die every day, it's impossible for them to all make the national news is distressing. If I hated being here, I'd leave. But I'm sure things are worse everywhere else, so I'm right with you that it's better to impact lives on whatever scale possible. Even if it's just one kid who might need to know that someone cares.

[P-Shark: The Revenge]

Things have changed. With the newest technologies people are finding newer ways on being racists.
40 yrs ago that couldn't happen

[ms_m]

sht....there is only one way to be a racist...and that's to be a racist...no technology needed.