Interesting insight by NILE ROGERS re: DIANA album

[ivyfield]

I've edited and posted this to Yt: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJl90UMsF3c Nile seems like a really nice guy..!

[soulster]

Until the deluxe edition came out, I never, ever imagined any kind of gay connection with that song. I just liked it because it had a funky groove, and, as a drummer, I love that opening drum part. I never even knew Ross was a gay community icon until this forum!

Oh yeah, the famous DJ Nile was talking about is Frankie Crocker. I don't know of too many people who ever liked him. Even Cameo took a dig at him in their song "Don't Be So Cool".

[bankhousedave]

That's a great clip, Ivy. Yeah Nile is great.

[Motown4Ever518]

Until the deluxe edition came out, I never, ever imagined any kind of gay connection with that song. I just liked it because it had a funky groove, and, as a drummer, I love that opening drum part. I never even knew Ross was a gay community icon until this forum!

Oh yeah, the famous DJ Nile was talking about is Frankie Crocker. I don't know of too many people who ever liked him. Even Cameo took a dig at him in their song "Don't Be So Cool".

As a drummer I had a "What The For Goodness Sakes", moment when I first heard the intro of "I'm Coming Out". I read Niles book, a very good book,as well as Chic and The Politics of Disco, also a very good book, and have played the Diana Deluxe Edition to compare the Chic Mix and Motown Mix, and as much as I love Chic, the Motown Mix is what should have "come out", pun fully intended.

[nomis]

one of my oldest,dearest friends make Up artist guru Donald Hollingsworth just worked with Nile last week in Australia..lol it made me mad when he sent me a message..I always wanted to meet Nile..Im so thankful he fought his illness..I was very upset when I heard he was sick..as for Diana's gay connection..well it just grew as her Mackie bills did..who could outdress Diana in the 60s? with her vidal sassoon style wigs and chart dominance she was a stronger,more in control heroine than the cults of tragedy that surrounded say Joan Crawford,Marilyn Monroe or Judy Garland...Dianas Sullivan apperances brought the stereotypical roles of gender crashing down..she was making history,and I suspect Gays applauded her strength..i love the urban club myth of the night Diana,Cher,Elton John and Bette Midler went to a gay club in the late 70s..apparently it turned into quite a scene...

[jobeterob]

Well, just like I thought Mary Wilson did the Johnny Bristol parts of Someday We'll be Together, I did not see or get the connection of the Supremes & Diana Ross to the gay community. But by 1980, I'm Coming Out was a little bit obvious in many respects.

To this day, 98% of the Diana Ross concert audience is white haired men and women, much like the audience for the Temptations. I thought the Tempts skewed a little bit older.

So, that night in the late 70's, did Elton show the girls a few things or did he slip away on them or just plain dump them?

[nomis]

they went to catch a broadway show at the interval the circus began..the show was like an hour late starting its 2nd act because the whole audience was outside gaping at Chers party [[Cher organised the night out she said she was surprised that Diana attended because it was widely known that Ross and Midler didnt get along..)after the broadway show they went to a gay club and utter choas ensued..the men were grabbing Chers Boyfriend of the time David Geffen and Bob Ellis..to which Diana replied "Hey cut that out ! hes mine"..apparently several Drag Queens in attendence had taken several substances and couldnt believe all these legendary performers were before them...people were fainting lol...

[soulster]

..as for Diana's gay connection..well it just grew as her Mackie bills did..who could outdress Diana in the 60s? with her vidal sassoon style wigs and chart dominance she was a stronger,more in control heroine than the cults of tragedy that surrounded say Joan Crawford,Marilyn Monroe or Judy Garland...Dianas Sullivan apperances brought the stereotypical roles of gender crashing down..she was making history,and I suspect Gays applauded her strength..i love the urban club myth of the night Diana,Cher,Elton John and Bette Midler went to a gay club in the late 70s..apparently it turned into quite a scene...

Whatever you just posted went right over my head. I don't know about or understand anything you just said. Huh? What about her music?

[nomis]

ok I will try and explain..Ross,Crawford,Monroe,Garland,Callas,Madon na,Houston,Janet Jackson have had a huge following for gay audiences [[how could I forget Striesand ?) because they are women who carry their own sense of drama..most of them came from nothing and became the american dream of success..but critically they were often the underdogs [[because a strong women is often feared in the music industry..)..to a percentage and I say,only a percentage of gay audiences they identify with the under dog because its a situation they can relate to through personal experiences of discrimination..if your a teenager and you saw Dianas career unfold in the sixties or Madonna in the 80s your watching your hero tear up the rule book of show buisness and set records..its exciting to watch the history happen...if your gay often you dont have a strong family interaction or limited friends..but the music is always there..you wait for the next tv apperance..the magazine article..I know hundreds and hundreds of gay men and if I was to ask them to imagine life without music they would be perplexed..music is very central to all the gay guys I know..thats how they became my friends thru being able to dj and perform in gay clubs for 20 years..I was devoted to most of the women I listed at the begining and they must have had their own personal affinity for some of them or I wouldnt be doing a Striesand or Houston show still 20 years later..sorry If you dont understand...im not very good at explaining this..its a subconcious rejection of masculine primacy..again I say not for everybody but the 200 or so gay guys i will dj for this weekend are all under 25 and Beyonce,Lady Gaga and Rihanna are carrying out the same thing that I did with my friends 20 yrs ago for Janet,houston etc..its an appreciation of feminity..all these ladies have had an incredible output and work ethic..they are survivors..known for their surname..when Luther Vandross said his school work went out the window when it was announced Diana was leaving the supremes..I laughed cos I love that dedication to Ross..when Donna Summer was quoted on the HIV epidemic it became possible to buy all her vinyl in any 2nd hand record shop..she was blackballed..it was largely the gay dollar that built her career and she supposedly said an anti gay remark now I dont know if she said it or not..but her career was never the same..most gay men i know dont have children therefore they have more income to spend on themselves and their partners - theatre and music and these ladies all profited from that dollar unquestionably..Cher and Midler play vegas now til they drop just the way Dietrich once did the audience is loyal..hell the drag queens beat up the NY police the night Garland died and they tried to stop the party..birth of stonewall riots and gay liberation..it dosent mean they have an exclusive gay following but I doubt any of ladies I listed alive or deceased would marginalise the affection gay audiences have shown them..

[nomis]

when I worked for EMI,Virgin,Warners,Festival and Sony in the 90s and early 2000s I was hired solely because I was gay and hetrosexual men at the various companies didnt want to touch and market a Janet,Kylie or Madonna release..thats not my perception that was fact I never worked on Coldplay,Robbie Williams or The Beatles I did the ladies who had a huge following in the gay clubs I worked at on the weekends...now I dont know how it plays for the rest of the world but in NZ I witnessed the discrimination against female singers firsthand,hell I profited from their fear..yup fear of a strong women..and an undelying,never spoken vibe that Madonna or Diana was "too gay" for the executives to work on..thats how it played out here..and I got all the gigs so lucky me...

[nomis]

Ive asked Donald to post here on Niles Tv apperance last week...he performed "The Reflex" and "Holiday"...

[Roberta75]

Whatever you just posted went right over my head. I don't know about or understand anything you just said. Huh? What about her music?

You just don't get "the gays" do you Soulster? Or maybe you actually do get it more than we know? You are either exceptionally naive or pulling a really fast one on most of us.

Just my personal observation.

[nomis]

the baseline between Edwards and Russ's overhaul on Diana's "Now that Your Gone' is the most compilicated progression of bass rythmn Ive ever heard..its slightly disjointed but works in the context of a song..its nearly impossible to establish where one starts and one is overdubbed..its the kind of slightly a jar beat Timbaland would throw down for Aaliyah decades later..apparently the mix of "Now That Your Gone" released was Niles bone of contention with Motown over the diana LP he said "it was all over the place"..but I love it more than any other Motown track.period.

[soulster]

when I worked for EMI,Virgin,Warners,Festival and Sony in the 90s and early 2000s I was hired solely because I was gay and hetrosexual men at the various companies didnt want to touch and market a Janet,Kylie or Madonna release..thats not my perception that was fact I never worked on Coldplay,Robbie Williams or The Beatles I did the ladies who had a huge following in the gay clubs I worked at on the weekends...now I dont know how it plays for the rest of the world but in NZ I witnessed the discrimination against female singers firsthand,hell I profited from their fear..yup fear of a strong women..and an undelying,never spoken vibe that Madonna or Diana was "too gay" for the executives to work on..thats how it played out here..and I got all the gigs so lucky me...

Why would a straight guy not want to promote Janet Jackson? Straight guys loved her music. Great bedroom music to get your lady in the mood. Another question? Why don't gay guys ever follow men?

Seriously, this gay stuff is too confusing.

[soulster]

You just don't get "the gays" do you Soulster? Or maybe you actually do get it more than we know? You are either exceptionally naive or pulling a really fast one on most of us.

Just my personal observation.

Seriously, no. I'm not pulling anyone's leg. I grew up in small-town middle America. All this stuff is alien to me. I remember back in the 70s. We were on the school bus one morning and we heard about how Elton John discovered he liked "girls as well as blokes". We all snickered, but we weren't surprised. It's not like we all had our suspicions.

[Roberta75]

Why would a straight guy not want to promote Janet Jackson? Straight guys loved her music. Great bedroom music to get your lady in the mood. Another question? Why don't gay guys ever follow men?

Seriously, this gay stuff is too confusing.

But I thought gay guys DO follow men. As you say, this gay stuff is too confusing.

[Roberta75]

Seriously, no. I'm not pulling anyone's leg. I grew up in small-town middle America. All this stuff is alien to me. I remember back in the 70s. We were on the school bus one morning and we heard about how Elton John discovered he liked "girls as well as blokes". We all snickered, but we weren't surprised. It's not like we all had our suspicions.

Alien to you in 2012? Come on!!! They don't have Gay people in small town middle America? You have never seen a Gay person on TV? I find it really, really hard to believe unless you are living in Mayberry.

[nomis]

I dont know why the men didnt dig Janet..first I did "Janet" cd with my boss Sue Bignall..for "Velvet Rope" I worked for a lady called Camille Guzzwell and "All for you" i was under Teresa patterson..the only work any men did for Janet was when they turned up with their innane grins for the meet and greet when she toured..they all had her photo took with her,tried to schmooze her then scuttled back to their desks...biggest load of fake wanna bes..but Janet was no fool she saw right thru them..i was given a beautiful one off photo of her taken by her boyfriend as a present..a very classy lady...

[nabob]

Oh yeah, the famous DJ Nile was talking about is Frankie Crocker. I don't know of too many people who ever liked him. Even Cameo took a dig at him in their song "Don't Be So Cool".There were throngs of New Yorkers in the 60s and 70s who loved Frankie Crocker. Although there were personality flaws, he was definitely one of the smoothest DJs ever to come along. Here is the opening monologue of his shows:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYHXYsqZqtc
One of my favorite of his adlibs was his comments in the Fantastic Four remake of Bobby Bland's To Share Your Love. This included remarks of a woman being blind, crippled & crazy not to understand the brother's pleas.

[milven]

We're off topic here, but I'll continue it. Was not aware of Frankie Crocker on WWRL but when WRVR changed to WBLS and Frankie was the program director and DJ in the '70's, his was one of the best DJ shows on the air. It was a throwback to personality radio. He was not confined to a short play list and played whatever he wanted. He had a talent for putting shows together. playing a new version of a song next to the original, talking about current events in the news and putting on a very entertaining show of music. He was a throwback to the dee-jays of the fifties. But he also had a lot of ego and a lot of power to make a hit. So, he may not have been too well loved in the industry. I think he may have also gotten caught in a payola type scandal but my recollection on that is cloudy. I do not that he was off BLS for a while and then returned.

[MIKEW-UK]

lot of stuff here about Nile and Diana Ross, the disco movement, even Russ gets a mention...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/disco-inferno-6156181.html

[soulster]

But I thought gay guys DO follow men. As you say, this gay stuff is too confusing.

But, all i'm hearing is about Judy Garland, Diana Ross, Mary Wilson, and the like. I never hear anyone gay talk about the male singers around here. OK, maybe Sylvester, but he was a transvestite.


Alien to you in 2012? Come on!!! They don't have Gay people in small town middle America? You have never seen a Gay person on TV? I find it really, really hard to believe unless you are living in Mayberry.

I didn't say that. I'm wondering why they value seemingly only female entertainers. Nomis attempted to explain, but I still don't get the fascination with female singers.

[soulster]

I dont know why the men didnt dig Janet..first I did "Janet" cd with my boss Sue Bignall..for "Velvet Rope" I worked for a lady called Camille Guzzwell and "All for you" i was under Teresa patterson..the only work any men did for Janet was when they turned up with their innane grins for the meet and greet when she toured..they all had her photo took with her,tried to schmooze her then scuttled back to their desks...biggest load of fake wanna bes..but Janet was no fool she saw right thru them..i was given a beautiful one off photo of her taken by her boyfriend as a present..a very classy lady...

That is strange. What would be so hard about helping to market her music? Why did they feel like they had to hire a gay person for it? At the time, she was still able to sell lots of albums and was able to get top ten singles. her concerts were still selling out. The only reason I would not want to mess with Coldplay is because I don't like their music. Robbie Williams would be cool to work with. The guy sounded a lot like John Lennon.

[soulster]

the baseline between Edwards and Russ's overhaul on Diana's "Now that Your Gone' is the most compilicated progression of bass rythmn Ive ever heard..its slightly disjointed but works in the context of a song..its nearly impossible to establish where one starts and one is overdubbed..

That was the mastery of Dr. Bernard Edward's playing. If you think that bass line is strange, listen to Rod Stewart's "Crazy About Her".

[soulster]

There were throngs of New Yorkers in the 60s and 70s who loved Frankie Crocker. Although there were personality flaws, he was definitely one of the smoothest DJs ever to come along.

No, i'm talking about his being some sort of a self-appointed gatekeeper of soul music, especially in the early 80s. He seemed to have a serious distaste for funk music.

[Roberta75]

But, all i'm hearing is about Judy Garland, Diana Ross, Mary Wilson, and the like. I never hear anyone gay talk about the male singers around here. OK, maybe Sylvester, but he was a transvestite.
I didn't say that. I'm wondering why they value seemingly only female entertainers. Nomis attempted to explain, but I still don't get the fascination with female singers.

I think Norris explained very clearly about what "they" value in a female entertainer. If you don't get it now, which I am having a hard time grasping, then you'll never get "the gays" will you?

Roberta

[ivyfield]

[QUOTE=soulster;98601]But, all i'm hearing is about Judy Garland, Diana Ross, Mary Wilson, and the like. I never hear anyone gay talk about the male singers around here. OK, maybe Sylvester, but he was a transvestite.

Hey, I'll talk about male singers. my all-time favourite is Nat King Cole. Just simply the best of the best. I also REALLY like Michael Bublé, but he's still cutting his teeth in comparison the the mammoth back-catalogue Nat left us. As for Motown male singers? In order of preference: Levi, Dennis, Ali Woodson, Eddie, Ronnie Isley, Michael Jackson. That enough to set the record 'straight'..? Sorry, couldn't resist!! Steve Weaver, 56, gay and don't know how I'd have gotten through life without MOTOWN.

[bankhousedave]

This is fine stuff Mike. Good on Darryl. Just wish he'd brought it to me.

[marv2]

We're off topic here, but I'll continue it. Was not aware of Frankie Crocker on WWRL but when WRVR changed to WBLS and Frankie was the program director and DJ in the '70's, his was one of the best DJ shows on the air. It was a throwback to personality radio. He was not confined to a short play list and played whatever he wanted. He had a talent for putting shows together. playing a new version of a song next to the original, talking about current events in the news and putting on a very entertaining show of music. He was a throwback to the dee-jays of the fifties. But he also had a lot of ego and a lot of power to make a hit. So, he may not have been too well loved in the industry. I think he may have also gotten caught in a payola type scandal but my recollection on that is cloudy. I do not that he was off BLS for a while and then returned.

Frankie went to prison. His cousin use to be married to a friend of mine.

[MIKEW-UK]

Bankhousedave,

not to worry.... Ralph brought his book to you which is excellent reading as I can testify.

[bankhousedave]

Good to hear, Mike. I met Darryl a few years back. He's a nice guy and clearly a fine writer too.

[thisoldheart]

ok I will try and explain..Ross,Crawford,Monroe,Garland,Callas,Madon na,Houston,Janet Jackson have had a huge following for gay audiences [[how could I forget Striesand ?) because they are women who carry their own sense of drama..most of them came from nothing and became the american dream of success..but critically they were often the underdogs [[because a strong women is often feared in the music industry..)..to a percentage and I say,only a percentage of gay audiences they identify with the under dog because its a situation they can relate to through personal experiences of discrimination..if your a teenager and you saw Dianas career unfold in the sixties or Madonna in the 80s your watching your hero tear up the rule book of show buisness and set records..its exciting to watch the history happen...if your gay often you dont have a strong family interaction or limited friends..but the music is always there..you wait for the next tv apperance..the magazine article..I know hundreds and hundreds of gay men and if I was to ask them to imagine life without music they would be perplexed..music is very central to all the gay guys I know..thats how they became my friends thru being able to dj and perform in gay clubs for 20 years..I was devoted to most of the women I listed at the begining and they must have had their own personal affinity for some of them or I wouldnt be doing a Striesand or Houston show still 20 years later..sorry If you dont understand...im not very good at explaining this..its a subconcious rejection of masculine primacy..again I say not for everybody but the 200 or so gay guys i will dj for this weekend are all under 25 and Beyonce,Lady Gaga and Rihanna are carrying out the same thing that I did with my friends 20 yrs ago for Janet,houston etc..its an appreciation of feminity..all these ladies have had an incredible output and work ethic..they are survivors..known for their surname..when Luther Vandross said his school work went out the window when it was announced Diana was leaving the supremes..I laughed cos I love that dedication to Ross..when Donna Summer was quoted on the HIV epidemic it became possible to buy all her vinyl in any 2nd hand record shop..she was blackballed..it was largely the gay dollar that built her career and she supposedly said an anti gay remark now I dont know if she said it or not..but her career was never the same..most gay men i know dont have children therefore they have more income to spend on themselves and their partners - theatre and music and these ladies all profited from that dollar unquestionably..Cher and Midler play vegas now til they drop just the way Dietrich once did the audience is loyal..hell the drag queens beat up the NY police the night Garland died and they tried to stop the party..birth of stonewall riots and gay liberation..it dosent mean they have an exclusive gay following but I doubt any of ladies I listed alive or deceased would marginalise the affection gay audiences have shown them..
i'm gay, but had much wider musical taste and heroes, and never got the diva/gay love fest thing ... but this is the best explaination i have ever read, and a spot critique for most gays. well written and informed! thanks

[smark21]

Soulster, something to bear in mind when it comes to gay men and female pop singers is that most pop songs are about love. Gay men are attracted to me. They have relationships with men. Most songs sung by a woman singer are addressed to a man or singing about a relationship with a man. As a result, the gay male listener can identify with the emotions she's singing about, whether it's the happiness or the heartbreak of loving a man. Most male pop singers are singing explicitly to a woman. While there may be an emotional connection with the song, there's not a complete identification with it. Furthermore, the gay man can't think of himself as the object of the male singer's song like a female listener can. There are a few out gay singers out there as well as a few singers who while straight in their personal lives have no problems serving themselves as a sex object for both women and men and in their songs sing to "you" rather than "her" or more daringly, actually play the role of a gay man. For instance, "Michael" by Franz Ferdinand or "Andy You're a Star" by Brandon Flowers and the Killers. But by and large in the pop scene, a gay male listener is most likely to find some point of greater identification in a song when it's a female vocalist singing the song. Also, let's not forget this is a classic soul music forum so you're not going to see much discussion of out male singers as there aren't many in the classic soul/r and B world. Hence the gay members of this site are more likely to talk about Diana Ross and The Supremes and all the other divas. Which is not to say we don't like The Temptations or The Dramatics or Marvin, et. al.

[soulster]

Soulster, something to bear in mind when it comes to gay men and female pop singers is that most pop songs are about love. Gay men are attracted to me. They have relationships with men. Most songs sung by a woman singer are addressed to a man or singing about a relationship with a man. As a result, the gay male listener can identify with the emotions she's singing about, whether it's the happiness or the heartbreak of loving a man.

Most male pop singers are singing explicitly to a woman. While there may be an emotional connection with the song, there's not a complete identification with it.

OK, I think I can understand that. Those are the exact cues that tip people off that Luther Vandross and George Michael are gay. You can hear it in their lyrics and delivery. It's different than when a straight guy, like Ray Parker Jr. writes and sings songs. With him, he's singing in a direct way that straight guys can relate to. I guess when a straight guy listens to a female singer, he hears the words and understands the emotion, but he's concentrating on her voice, like with Karen Carpenter.


Furthermore, the gay man can't think of himself as the object of the male singer's song like a female listener can. There are a few out gay singers out there as well as a few singers who while straight in their personal lives have no problems serving themselves as a sex object for both women and men and in their songs sing to "you" rather than "her" or more daringly, actually play the role of a gay man.

I think you lost me there.


But by and large in the pop scene, a gay male listener is most likely to find some point of greater identification in a song when it's a female vocalist singing the song. Also, let's not forget this is a classic soul music forum so you're not going to see much discussion of out male singers as there aren't many in the classic soul/r and B world. Hence the gay members of this site are more likely to talk about Diana Ross and The Supremes and all the other divas. Which is not to say we don't like The Temptations or The Dramatics or Marvin, et. al.

Well, you are the first one who has seriously attempted to explain it in a way a straight guy could understand it. I think I get it now.

BTW, I only know about a scant few gay male R&B singers:

Bobby Marchan
Billy Preston
Johnny Mathis
Luther Vandross
Freddie Jackson

I read that Peabo Bryson is also gay.

OK, now that I think I understand why so many gay guys are so obsessed with certain female singers, I can leave the issue alone now....except for the OCD!