Supremes At The Copa.

[Roger Polhill]

I`ve heard from Motown Treasures that this is coming up next.I`m not fizzing.

[jobeterob]

Yes, it's and Baby It's Me.

Copa wasn't my favorite; I'll take Earl Van Dyke over the Copa.

All of this was discussed on Midnight Johnny's Radio Show with Andy and George. A podcast is going to be available soon if not already.

They talk about Stop in the Name of Love and who sings on it, The Copa, sending copies of the CDs to Rhonda and Diana, the salacious nutcase type of fan, the vault, the masters, etc. But it does have a Ross/Supremes bias, so it may not be popular with every Motown fan.

[franjoy56]

Thanks for this information I have been waiting for this and i hope they include the song "People" from the opening night performance with Ballard's lead. that LP which I play every July is fantabulous its full of Supremes hype that made them great the show tunes, and The Sam Cooke medley intro, Queen of the House are comedic & soulful & heart wrenching can't wait, you won't find any Andantes hiding behind the curtain thankfully DMF.

[Jimi LaLumia]

I am SO looking forward to "The Copa" CD, only ever had this on vinyl, and who knows what will be added back in[[like Flo on "People"), can't wait to pre order this! [[and "Baby It's Me"; I've been playing the DIANA ROSS 'Black" cd set all week over and over; so happy with all this stuff..)

[R. Mark Desjardins]

The Supremes Sam Cooke medley on their Copa recording is definitely one of the highlights of this set. A remastered version with material cut out from the original shows would be very welcome. 4485

Although I never saw the original Supremes lineup, I did see the women perform in Montreal during a 3 three day, six show gig during Expo '67. This photo is taken from the Supremes' performance at the Cave supper club, in Vancouver, Canada during the spring of 1967. The Cave is long gone, and during its heyday, hosted virtually every main headlining act popular during the forties through to the early eighties.

[R. Mark Desjardins]

Could you please post an web address where I could listen to the Midnight Johnny's Radio show and hear Andy and George share information? Thanks!4486

[jobeterob]

Here you go:

www.womr.org

Tuesday, 6 to 9 PM, ET

I don't know if the podcast is yet available but one is supposed to be sooner or later.

[theboyfromxtown]

Nice one Mark

[davidh]

the Copa lp was good but ok for me. to many standards for me but they did cut/delete alot of other tracks off such as WHERE DID OUR LOVE GO /NOTHING BUT HEARTACHES and others. i think the Copa deluze 2 cd set will bring us more gems since i imagine it will include their 2nd set ,the unreleased CAPTURED LIVE IN STAGE from 1967. i think the ROGERS AND HART lp may have been released instead. the only thing i disliked more than the too many standards was the cover art work, but thats just my opinion.

[ejluther]

What a great picture, Mark - thanks so much for sharing [[are there any more?)

I can't wait for the COPA release - it was one of my first Supremes LPs and a sentimental fave. As others have said, the "Sam Cooke" medley is a real standout. I wonder if we'll hear some of the original tapes with Diana's first vocals [[she apparently overdubbed most of the songs because her voice was hoarse)? Since it's a 2-disc set I'm also betting we get the unreleased live LP [[recorded at Detroit's ROOSTERTAIL, yes?) davidh mentioned as a bonus...

[theboyfromxtown]

I always thought that Queen of the House was a song that Motown put together. I've heard others since.

I'll say this for what it's worth. Ivy Jo Hunter told me [[and others) that an instrumental version of "The Lovin' Country" was the opening theme for the Copa performance. He spoke about it proudly too. Weren't the Supremes performing at the Copa more than once?

[Jimi LaLumia]

you kids are too young; I'm a 60's kid...
"Queen Of The House" was a parody of a #1 record called "King Of The Road" by Roger Miller, it was a Weird Al type re write from the woman's point of view...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GOkc6aEfkM

[milven]

I always thought that Queen of the House was a song that Motown put together. I've heard others since.

I'll say this for what it's worth. Ivy Jo Hunter told me [[and others) that an instrumental version of "The Lovin' Country" was the opening theme for the Copa performance. He spoke about it proudly too. Weren't the Supremes performing at the Copa more than once?
Queen of the House was an "answer" record to Roger Miller's hit King of the Road. It became a hit in its own right, and the Supremes put the song in their act. The original Supremes had two seperate gigs at the Copa. Back then, their entrance theme was I HEAR A SYMPHONY and it probably was at the Copa too. But the seventies Supremes appeared at the Copa quite a few times and perhaps that is when Lovin Country was used as the opening theme. I saw the seventies Supremes there every time that they appeared but don't remember what their opening theme was. During one performance, Jean was not there, new Supreme Lynda was in lead, and a Cindy was back. [[I think she was pregnant) I was so excited about seeing the Supremes, that it took me a few seconds to realize that this was a unique lineup. But , I am sure the casual fan did not even notice. In fact , at the next table I heard someone say, "Which one is Diana?".

[marv2]

you kids are too young; I'm a 60's kid...
"Queen Of The House" was a parody of a #1 record called "King Of The Road" by Roger Miller, it was a Weird Al type re write from the woman's point of view...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GOkc6aEfkM


"King of the Road "was very popular when I was in grade school. So I'm right along with you Jimi.

[bankhousedave]

The main things I remember about this album were the fact that everything seemed to be too fast [[since been told it was speeded up to cram it on the vinyl), and Jimmy Garrett's bass was very much to the fore in the mix. At the right speed, it should sound a lot better.

[johnny_raven]

Here is Jody Miller's hit version of "Queen Of The House"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdMISGruB0Q

[theboyfromxtown]

LOL. It WAS Johnny Raven that pointed the Jody Miller version out to me some years ago!!

[captainjames]

Loving this pic.....did you take it ?
Never seen it before



The Supremes Sam Cooke medley on their Copa recording is definitely one of the highlights of this set. A remastered version with material cut out from the original shows would be very welcome. 4485

Although I never saw the original Supremes lineup, I did see the women perform in Montreal during a 3 three day, six show gig during Expo '67. This photo is taken from the Supremes' performance at the Cave supper club, in Vancouver, Canada during the spring of 1967. The Cave is long gone, and during its heyday, hosted virtually every main headlining act popular during the forties through to the early eighties.

[Buttered Popcorn and so forth]

I was expecting I Hear A Symphony to be the next one, so it's a pleasant surprise that they're doing At The Copa. Keep 'em coming! :D

[jobeterob]

I think John got called young in here! Ya right! But he is likely basking in the glow or rolling in the deep.

Next, we'll get Marv and Dave called young.

Dave spelled out what I didn't like about the Copa............it was too fast, sped up, whatever.

But didnt the Boy from Ipanema come off it? I thought they did that better than the original.

And really, the Copa marked the rise of Diana Ross, the tanking of Diane, and the end of the Supremes.

[Jimi LaLumia]

she was already being listed as Diana by "The Copa"s release, but she announces herself as Diane;
if the name change had never happened, would things have been different for her..of course not...if Diane was all we knew, then that would be the name we came to love..

[carlo]

And really, the Copa marked the rise of Diana Ross, the tanking of Diane, and the end of the Supremes.

The end of The Supremes? Trying to stir the pot again, Rob?

[carlo]

I think everyone is going to love this upcoming expanded edition of "At the Copa"! :) That's all I can say!

[Kamasu_Jr]

Can Hip O Select release expanded editions on other Motown artists other than the Supremes?

[carlo]

They release new projects according to past sales...so that's why it's important to buy/support as much as possible, even the compilations.

[R. Mark Desjardins]

[QUOTE=ejluther;95942]What a great picture, Mark - thanks so much for sharing [[are there any more?)

Good to hear you enjoyed the photo. Yes, Vancouver Sun photographer, Ken Oakes took a number of photographs of the Supremes' performances and I'll post them on here later today. Cheers! Mark

[jeff9nyc]

Although I never saw the original Supremes lineup, I did see the women perform in Montreal during a 3 three day, six show gig during Expo '67. This photo is taken from the Supremes' performance at the Cave supper club, in Vancouver, Canada during the spring of 1967.

This is a GREAT shot Mark! But, it couldn't have been taken in the Spring of 1967. That's Cindy in the shot. I believe they did Expo '67 in the fall of '67. Please post more shots if you have 'em.

[johnbell]

The Supremes Sam Cooke medley on their Copa recording is definitely one of the highlights of this set. A remastered version with material cut out from the original shows would be very welcome. 4485

Although I never saw the original Supremes lineup, I did see the women perform in Montreal during a 3 three day, six show gig during Expo '67. This photo is taken from the Supremes' performance at the Cave supper club, in Vancouver, Canada during the spring of 1967. The Cave is long gone, and during its heyday, hosted virtually every main headlining act popular during the forties through to the early eighties.

Hello Mark, was also in attendance for 3 of the 6 shows in August 1967 at the Montreal Expos Theatre.

As far as The Supremes at The Copa, it was recorded in September 1965 i guess, and I did saw The Supremes for the 1st time in July 1965 in Hampton Beach, so it was the same show, so I will Always cherish that album. But for me Live at The London's Talk of The Town is my favorite live album.

[ejluther]

she was already being listed as Diana by "The Copa"s release
But she was never listed as anything but "Diana" on their records, was she? She was listed as "Diana" on MEET THE SUPREMES and WHERE DID OUR LOVE GO and, obviously, as "Diana" [[along with "Mary" & "Flo") on the cover of MORE HITS...

[marv2]

The Supremes were getting down at the Copa! Almost everyone's house you visited back then seem to have that album and "Where Did Our Love Go?"

[marv2]

Hello Mark, was also in attendance for 3 of the 6 shows in August 1967 at the Montreal Expos Theatre.

As far as The Supremes at The Copa, it was recorded in September 1965 i guess, and I did saw The Supremes for the 1st time in July 1965 in Hampton Beach, so it was the same show, so I will Always cherish that album. But for me Live at The London's Talk of The Town is my favorite live album.

I have an inteview Diane did for CBC Radio she did during their stint at Expo '67.

[davidh]

i suppose disc 1 will be the stereo and mono versions,maybe with out takes and disc 2 will be the other live engagement from 67 with more outtakes.sounds good to me

[reese]

But she was never listed as anything but "Diana" on their records, was she? She was listed as "Diana" on MEET THE SUPREMES and WHERE DID OUR LOVE GO and, obviously, as "Diana" [[along with "Mary" & "Flo") on the cover of MORE HITS...

She was mistakenly listed as Diane in the liner notes of SING COUNTRY WESTERN & POP.

[Constantin]

What is the big deal with "Diana" and "Diane"? I know the facts [[the name on her birth certificate, the name they use to call her when she was young, "Diane" as a weapon for some people) but what is the difference for an English-speaking person between the two names? Is one more elegant than the other? I know the choice of names implies many things but have to confess that I can't see clearly what "Diana" or "Diane" implies. If somebody could help me with this... :-)

[johnbell]

She was mistakenly listed as Diane in the liner notes of SING COUNTRY WESTERN & POP.

But she does presnts herself as "Diane Ross" on the Copa album...I just listenned to it.

[Jimi LaLumia]

the name Diana resonates as a more powerful name, that 'uh' at the end makes all the difference in the world;
Diane is a pretty name but a more casual sounding name; obviously, Berry Gordy got this, anyway,early on, and the do call her Diane on the Country western and Pop album liner notes;
would this have stopped her from being a fabulous star ? I don't think so;
it just helped to make her MORE fabulous.;.

[RossHolloway]

What is the big deal with "Diana" and "Diane"? I know the facts [[the name on her birth certificate, the name they use to call her when she was young, "Diane" as a weapon for some people) but what is the difference for an English-speaking person between the two names? Is one more elegant than the other? I know the choice of names implies many things but have to confess that I can't see clearly what "Diana" or "Diane" implies. If somebody could help me with this... :-)

I agree with you completely. Some people think they're so "cute" referring to her as Diane, as if they are that familiar and personal with her. Yet these same fake ass people never spell Marvin's last name GAY or refer to Stevie Wonder as Steveland Judkins or Steveland Hardaway or when was the last time you read the name William Robinson instead of Smokey Robinson? FAKE FAKE FAKE.

[ejluther]

Seems to me people often point to her changing from "Diane" to "Diana" as a symbol of her becoming full of herself and/or of being a phony person [[especially since Mary and Flo never changed their names). I suppose it is an easy example to hang your criticisms of her upon but, in the end, it's a pretty weak argument because very few stars hold on to their original names. And, as Jimi points out, "Diana" has a different impact and appeal than "Diane" - it certainly has deeper classical roots and reads more grand...

PS: Thanks for pointing out the use of "Diane" on CW&P. The fact that she calls herself "Diane" on COPA makes me wonder how long it was until she became completely comfortable with "Diana" herself, let alone "Miss Ross"? Seems to me Berry Gordy was the initial drive behind both names for her. I know Diana was a more-than-willing participant in her own career but it's easy to forget how young they all were and who was really driving the ship...

[Constantin]

the name Diana resonates as a more powerful name, that 'uh' at the end makes all the difference in the world; [...]*it just helped to make her MORE fabulous.;.*


And, as*Jimi*points out, "Diana" has a different impact and appeal than "Diane" - it certainly has deeper classical roots and reads more grand...*

Thanks for the answers. I didn't know that.

[Constantin]

Seems to me people often point to her changing from "Diane" to "Diana" as a symbol of her becoming full of herself and/or of being a phony person [[especially since Mary and Flo never changed their names).

1. Bashing Diana Ross seems to be a national sport for many people in the US. :-)
[[David Nathan begins his chapter about her more or less in that way in "Soulful Divas".)

2. Actually, Flo isn't exactly her real name either...

[floyjoy678]

I think the whole "Diane" thing stopped once they became Diana Ross and the Supremes. On their What's My Line appearance in 1966 the host announces her as "Diane Ross" and then on the Andy Williams Show in 1967 when Andy is interviewing them he keeps referring to Diana as "Diane". While we're on the subject of people's "not-so-real-names-calling" didn't Diana always call Florence "Blondie"? And doesn't she still call her that? [[I remember on one of her Oprah appearances she referred to her as Blondie a few times).

[milven]

And Berry and Diana call each other "Black". I think a person should be called what the person prefers to be called. We used to call my brother Junior longer than we should have. He told us that he rather be called by his given name and we honored that. I notice that on this and other places on the Internet people who do not care for Diana refer to her as Diane. Have no idea why, perhaps to show disrespect what for she prefers to be called. Just an observation.

[kenneth]

And Berry and Diana call each other "Black". I think a person should be called what the person prefers to be called. We used to call my brother Junior longer than we should have. He told us that he rather be called by his given name and we honored that. I notice that on this and other places on the Internet people who do not care for Diana refer to her as Diane. Have no idea why, perhaps to show disrespect what for she prefers to be called. Just an observation.

Growing up in Detroit, most of us who followed the Sups referred to her as 'Diane.' I still do. It isn't out of disrespect, but more familiarity, a kind of feeling that we grew up with her, that she was one of us, so to speak, being from the same town.

I believe her given name is Diana, actually, not Diane. I think of 'Diane' as more a term of endearment, like a nickname, more than anything else.

[RossHolloway]

Growing up in Detroit, most of us who followed the Sups referred to her as 'Diane.' I still do. It isn't out of disrespect, but more familiarity, a kind of feeling that we grew up with her, that she was one of us, so to speak, being from the same town.

I believe her given name is Diana, actually, not Diane. I think of 'Diane' as more a term of endearment, like a nickname, more than anything else.

By that same token then how do you spell Marvin's last name? And do you refer to Stevie Wonder as Steveland Hardaway Judkins and when was the last time you referred to the Miracles as William Robinson and the Miracles? I just think it's obnoxious for people who don't know her personally to call her Diane. She's an international star and she's known as Diana Ross.

[BigAl]

By that same token then how do you spell Marvin's last name? And do you refer to Stevie Wonder as Steveland Hardaway Judkins and when was the last time you referred to the Miracles as William Robinson and the Miracles? I just think it's obnoxious for people who don't know her personally to call her Diane. She's an international star and she's known as Diana Ross.

To some it's a term of familiarity, to others one of endearment, to still others it's one of derision. When referring to her by her first name in the context of the original Supremes I've always referred to her as Diane and have done so since I heard her introduce herself as that on the Copa album, and to me it's always been and will always be DianeMaryandFlo, but when I use her first and last names in other contexts I refer to her as Diana Ross. Just as some of my friends and loved ones call me Allan and others Al and I don't give a rat's arse either way. What's in a name anyway?

[Constantin]

I believe her given name is Diana, actually, not Diane. I think of 'Diane' as more a term of endearment, like a nickname, more than anything else.

Isn't "Diana" a misprint on her birth certificate and "Diane" the name originally chosen by her parents?

[kenneth]

By that same token then how do you spell Marvin's last name? And do you refer to Stevie Wonder as Steveland Hardaway Judkins and when was the last time you referred to the Miracles as William Robinson and the Miracles? I just think it's obnoxious for people who don't know her personally to call her Diane. She's an international star and she's known as Diana Ross.

Well, I think I tried to explain above...being a home town Detroit girl, we others felt like we did know her. Sorry if you find it obnoxious. I think you need to lighten up a bit...it's not as if she's royalty or anything.

[RossHolloway]

Well, I think I tried to explain above...sorry if you find it obnoxious. I think you need to lighten up a bit...it's not as if she's royalty or anything.

No she isn't royalty, I've never stated that she was, but stop acting like she's your best friend from grade school and that you knew her on such a personal level that you can call her Diane. That is all.

[kenneth]

No she isn't royalty, I've never stated that she was, but stop acting like she's your best friend from grade school and that you knew her on such a personal level that you can call her Diane. That is all.

Unfortunately, I don't take direction from anonymous bloggers who disagree with me. Cheers.

[RossHolloway]

Unfortunately, I don't take direction from anonymous bloggers who disagree with me. Cheers.

No worries my friend. Do you. I still wonder why you [[and the other fakes) don't spell Marvin's last name GAY or refer to Stevie as Steveland or call the Miracles, William Robinson and the Miracles....I mean if you can respect Marvin, Stevie and Smokey enough to call them by their well known entertainment/stage name I wonder why DianA can't be afforded the same respect....very curious. But your silence pretty much answers my question for me. That is all. Carry on.

[kenneth]

No worries my friend. Do you. I still wonder why you [[and the other fakes) don't spell Marvin's last name GAY or refer to Stevie as Steveland or call the Miracles, William Robinson and the Miracles....I mean if you can respect Marvin, Stevie and Smokey enough to call them by their well known entertainment/stage name I wonder why DianA can't be afforded the same respect....very curious. But your silence pretty much answers my question for me. That is all. Carry on.

You are hilarious...

[Roger Polhill]

I would have that the name change was because it rolled off the tongue easier for DJs.

[johnny_raven]

Can we PLEASE get back to the COPA and stop all this nonsense?!

[nomis]

Does the original master still exist of the performance Before Diana went in and overdubbed the entire performance for release ? apparently Gordy didnt think her vocal was up to scratch so she went into a studio and resang the performance note for note to bring it up to standard..Im imagining she had the original recording in her headphones to give her the cues for someone like Diana singing in harmony with a play back of the show would be very easy....

[skooldem1]

Is that fact or urban legend?

[nomis]

comes from J Randy...

[marv2]

Growing up in Detroit, most of us who followed the Sups referred to her as 'Diane.' I still do. It isn't out of disrespect, but more familiarity, a kind of feeling that we grew up with her, that she was one of us, so to speak, being from the same town.

I believe her given name is Diana, actually, not Diane. I think of 'Diane' as more a term of endearment, like a nickname, more than anything else.

Kenneth, it is the other way around. Her real name is DIANE. Her father named her that. The way the "story" goes is that although her given name by her Dad is indeed Diane, there was a typographical error at the hospital and the name "Diana" was typed on the birth certificated instead. Now according to her, she did not find out about that until she was one of the Supremes and working in show Business. I can't even type this without laughing LOL! True, she was always called Diane in Detroit and in Toledo for that matter. People know who you mean using either name. Only the guys on the internet make out like you are cursing at her when you refer to her as Diane. They haven't even met her. I don't care you see and she doesn't either to honest.

[marv2]

You are hilarious...

Totally hilarious! hehehehehehe......!

[marv2]

Any way....."At the Copa" was a nice album. Very popular at the time. I haven't listened to it in well over 25 years,but the one song I liked best was "Back In My Arms Again". I think it was a fine album for it's times the sixties. I remember seeing it in a lot peoples homes when I was a kid.

[nomis]

lord have mercy..ive been away from SDF for a year and folks are still debating the "Diane" thing !!

[kenneth]

Kenneth, it is the other way around. Her real name is DIANE. Her father named her that. The way the "story" goes is that although her given name by her Dad is indeed Diane, there was a typographical error at the hospital and the name "Diana" was typed on the birth certificated instead. Now according to her, she did not find out about that until she was one of the Supremes and working in show Business. I can't even type this without laughing LOL! True, she was always called Diane in Detroit and in Toledo for matter. People know who you mean using either name. Only the guys on the internet make out like you are cursing at her when you refer to her as Diane. They haven't even met her. I don't care you see and she doesn't either to honest.

Leave it to you to know the story behind the birth certificate! Thanks Bro.

[marv2]

Isn't "Diana" a misprint on her birth certificate and "Diane" the name originally chosen by her parents?

That is correct or how the story goes.

[Sacramento John]

Does the original master still exist of the performance Before Diana went in and overdubbed the entire performance for release ? ....

The Supremes at the Copa provides Hipo a very interesting choice of directions with this "re-look:"
This is a very iconic album for the group and much loved just as it was as first available on vinyl..so should the re-issue present just that recording in a rematered digital form? It was stated by J Randy that Diana went in & over dubbed her leads in the studio. It [[literally) sounds quite likely.
Or can we get the "real deal?" Will they provide an audio time capsule of what it was like to hear the Supremes live at the Copacabana in July of 1965? Can they provide both? That's my preference! I LOVED the orignal album..I know that album note for note. It was my second Supremes album that I got in 1967 and I played it to death! I have also always wanted to hear what the actual performance was like..without the constraints of vinyl two sided recording. What would we get to hear? What did we miss [[not get) on the vinyl? Is there more stage patter, more interaction between the girls? Some more zingers from Flo?? I'm also interested in hearing the Copa performance from 1967. I heard a "bootleg" of a May 1967 performance. As I recall it sounded pretty bad in audio quality, also it sounded as if Diana had a cold. The Rogers & Hart Complete had one live cut from that Copa run included in that set, it sounded pretty terrific! I'm really curious to find out which direction this will go or, perhaps, Andy & George will be able to accomodate all of these options...I hope so!

[theboyfromxtown]

That's a great suggestion. I like that a lot.

[kenneth]

Hip-O treated the special edition of James Brown "Live at the Garden" [[actually the Latin Casino) in a similar way to what you suggest. They have the whole program as originally recorded, including the numbers by the band and with all undubbed vocals, and then the original LP program with great cleaned up audio [[which did include some studio recordings I believe with fake applause). It's an awesome release. I imagine they'll do great by this one, too.

[Motown4Ever518]

On a day that had a paucity of laughter, I am glad I looked at this thread. We went to an intense discussion of Ms. Ross first name, from a theme of the Supremes Live @ the Copa being rereleased.

As a lad wanting to play the drums, but with a drum set out reach for my parents budget, when the LP first came out, I always dug the drummer in the background, sitting high, and proud. At the time, the show tunes left me cold, I was 10 at the time. But thank you Berry, for via your artists I was introduced to a different genre that I would not have been exposed to. If artists that I dug, such as The Supremes, and later, The Tempts, and Tops and others had not recorded these songs, who knows when I would have come across this music. If you are going to listen to for example, Climb Every Mountain, wouldn't you rather have Levi do it?

[kenneth]

On a day that had a paucity of laughter, I am glad I looked at this thread. We went to an intense discussion of Ms. Ross first name, from a theme of the Supremes Live @ the Copa being rereleased.

Careful, or you'll revive the whole kerfuffle all over again!

[davidh]

i think this is a major album for the Supremes and a deluxe edition will be another classic reissue.looking forward to this

[Motown4Ever518]

Kenneth,

Thats OK, I now have the biggest smile going on right now. I am looking forward to the release.

[762rob]

Me too I love the live albums even better when expanded since we have moved beyond space restrictions on LPs so much more to add.

Looking forward to the day we have an expanded Supremes A Go Go!

[Jimi LaLumia]

so exciting; an expanded 2.0 "At The Copa"!.. I get to be an active Supremes fan again

[marv2]

Leave it to you to know the story behind the birth certificate! Thanks Bro.

You have to know these things Kenneth! How else will you make your way in the World? hehehehehehehe..........

[marv2]

On a day that had a paucity of laughter, I am glad I looked at this thread. We went to an intense discussion of Ms. Ross first name, from a theme of the Supremes Live @ the Copa being rereleased.

As a lad wanting to play the drums, but with a drum set out reach for my parents budget, when the LP first came out, I always dug the drummer in the background, sitting high, and proud. At the time, the show tunes left me cold, I was 10 at the time. But thank you Berry, for via your artists I was introduced to a different genre that I would not have been exposed to. If artists that I dug, such as The Supremes, and later, The Tempts, and Tops and others had not recorded these songs, who knows when I would have come across this music. If you are going to listen to for example, Climb Every Mountain, wouldn't you rather have Levi do it?

To me, Levi did the definitive version of "Climb Every Mountain" as well as "MacArthur Park"! He was a beast!

[nomis]

I believe J Randy is correct those track listings at the end of his last biography on her are meticulous and all tracks that have come out on Hip O in the last two years were all faithfully published there for the first time..I mean there wasnt room at the Copa to swing a cat let alone have a good audio rehersal before taping the show..could have been a faulty mic on the night that couldnt fixed..it was after all one of the most important milestones of Motowns story..regardless of wether the show catalog leaves you unimpressed would be interesting to hear how they matched her retake vocal with Flo and Marys volume..i

[jeff9nyc]

As far as The Supremes at The Copa, it was recorded in September 1965
I believe it was recorded in July of '65 when they actually appeared at the Copa.

[bankhousedave]

Incidentally, I've just started a threat on musical director and bassist, Jimmy Garrett containing info new to me. Although the Supremes were backed on this album by the Copacabana Orchestra, they had their own rhythm section, consisting of Jimmy on bass, Napoleon Allen on guitar and Curtis Kirk on drums.

[Motown Andy]

Hello everyone,

Copa is on the way. Just a few finishing touches. No release date I can give at this time, but I hope it is before summer. Yes, we address the overdubbing issues. Yes, there is more music. Yes, there is more patter. No, these are not the musicians who back the girls, but for the first time, you will find out who! All will be revealed soon...

[bankhousedave]

Oops. OK. Thanks Andy. I always thought it looked like Bob Cousar on durms, but that's probably wrong too.

[Motown Andy]

Bob Cousar is correct! But I'd better stop now before I give any more away! :-)

[RossHolloway]

This is gonna be great!

[ejluther]

Thanks, Andy! And, in case you don't know it, you have one of greatest jobs I can imagine...cheers!

[jobeterob]

Kenneth or Ross..........one of you asked why Diana is not accorded the same respect as Stevie [[doesn't get called Steveland) and Marvin [[doesn't get called Gay).

The answer, jokingly and seriously is because..........."she's the greatest star, she is by far"! And so the detractors go crazy [[as you see).

And as others that followed her have found, for example, Madonna and Beyonce, this is what happens.

As Mae West apparently said once: "I have not met, nor have I any intention to meet, this Miss Madonna.

[danman869]

As Mae West apparently said once: "I have not met, nor have I any intention to meet, this Miss Madonna.

Apparently, that must've been awfully difficult to hear; Mae West died in 1980 and Madonna first broke on the scene in 1982.

[kenneth]

Kenneth or Ross..........one of you asked why Diana is not accorded the same respect as Stevie [[doesn't get called Steveland) and Marvin [[doesn't get called Gay).

The answer, jokingly and seriously is because..........."she's the greatest star, she is by far"! And so the detractors go crazy [[as you see).

And as others that followed her have found, for example, Madonna and Beyonce, this is what happens.

As Mae West apparently said once: "I have not met, nor have I any intention to meet, this Miss Madonna.

Please...don't get that dust-up started again...!

[marv2]

Apparently, that must've been awfully difficult to hear; Mae West died in 1980 and Madonna first broke on the scene in 1982.

Ok stop it! hehehehehehe! LOL!

[R. Mark Desjardins]

Mae West commenting on "Miss Madonna" made me laugh out loud. Mae died in December, 1980 and Madonna didn't hit the national scene till two years later. Mae loved the beat of R&B music, and in fact Van McCoy wrote music for her last film, "Sextette." West was 86 when she starred in this film, based on a play she had performed on stage. A young Timothy Dalton played her husband in this film, which totally ignored the many decades difference in their ages. Tarred and feathered by reviewers at the time of release for this, West could now be heralded at the original "cougar." In my forthcoming biography "In Search Of Mae West, I am going to examine the musical aspect of her career and the jazz musicians she insisted back her in musical numbers in her early 1930's films. Readers will be astonished how forward thinking Mae West was, by including as many African American performers in her films as she could, given the reluctance of studio bosses to do so. Racism ran rampant in Hollywood then, and some may argue that it still does.

[R. Mark Desjardins]

Many people on this site have asked if there are other pictures of the Supremes performance at the Cave supper club in Vancouver, Canada, circa 1967. I am going to post them, but it may have to be on a one by one basis. I met someone who had seen the original Supremes at an earlier Cave performance and had a wonderful story to share.
The west end of Vancouver, located in the downtown area, adjacent to the world famous Stanley Park, saw a huge building boom of high rise towers in the mid 1960's. A fan who lived in the Georgian Towers threw a cocktail party for the Supremes in his apartment, and Mary, Diana and Florence attended. Evidently their fur coats were placed in a bedroom and somehow, a cigarette accidently started a fire, which was quickly put out by the quick minded host with ice cubes. The fur coats luckily were not harmed.

The next evening at the Cave, during one of their songs, Florence squinted into the audience and noticed that their host the previous evening was sitting at a table near the stage. She elbowed Mary and whispered loud enough for the fans sitting at the table to hear, "there is that guy who saved us from the fire last night!" The three women sang the rest of that song to the table, delighting the fans. In the early days, the three were a lot of fun and obviously enjoyed the love and hospitality of fans. Of course those days are l-o-n-g over, but what a magical thing to have happen. I love their harmonies on C&W to this day!4547

[R. Mark Desjardins]

Mary and Cindy leaving the stage after a set at the Cave in Vancouver, Canada circa 1967.

4549

[Penny]

I call her Miss Ross.

Penny:cool:

[hwume]

The Supremes' Vancouver date at the Cave is significant: that's when the opening act was, under another name, the group that became Bobby Taylor & the Vancouvers. Mary and Flo stayed for the after-hours show, when the Cave became a hip nightclub called the Elegant Parlor and the Vancouvers transformed into the local main attraction. Mary and Flo liked what they saw and heard, called Berry Gordy, who flew in to see the band – and signed them. M&F = talent scouts.

[Jimi LaLumia]

and thanks to Mary & Flo finding Bobby Taylor, Bobby went on to find;....THE JACKSON 5!!!.....wow

[R. Mark Desjardins]

Hello hwume;
I have to admit I never personally saw the Supremes at the Cave in 1967, but I did see Little Richard perform there in December, 1969. I still have the receipt for a Coke for $1.25 [[!!!) in my scrapbook, which absolutely shocked me as being expensive as a 18 year old.I was a student in Edmonton, Alberta at the time, and flew in to see Little Richard.

I stayed with a friend whose girl friend was a "dancer" at the " Parlor," which I must have confused with the "Elegant Parlor."
An online search uncovered that The "Elegant Parlor" was located in the basement of a ballroom located near the corner of Davie Street and Burrard in the westend. The ballroom underwent many transformations and has been a gay disco for the past several decades. One of the original members of the Vancouvers states, "The Elegant Parlor’s landlord had sold
the building it had been in, so in early 1969 I moved the Parlour to the back of The Shanghai Junk at 205 East Pender Street and Main in Chinatown." Clearly there really wasn't much about either "palor" that could be truly considered "elegant!"

Bobby Taylor and the Vancouvers may have opened for the Supremes at the Cave in 1967, but their record "Does Your Mama Know About Me," wasn't released until 1968. I will try to find a review or advertising pertaining to The Supremes' Cave performance to determine if in fact there was an opening act. It is my understanding that Mary and Flo saw The Vancouvers perform during an earlier Cave booking in 1966. Unfortunately this era of Vancouver musical history is not well documented, but I will go through old newspaper files. I can state with confidence however, that the Cave and the Elegant Parlor are two entirely different establishments.

Vancouver, being so close to Seattle had musical acts that did not tour much in Canada, and R&B acts like James Brown and the Ike & Tina Turner Review played venues like "Isy's Supper Club," which was competing with the Cave. In the later 1970's Isy's morphed into a strip club.

I've never had a reason to look up this information before, but thanks to this thread, I'm glad now I did, because this is interesting stuff, which unfortunately gets buried in the sands of passed time. As a relatively new and "junior" member of SDF, I appreciate the wisdom and knowledge of long time members and am committed to posting correct information as my contribution. Thanks for your acceptance!

This photo appeared recently in the Vancouver Sun to mark the 100th anniversary of the newspaper's publishing run. The B&W photo reproduction seemed underexposed to me, and when I made a digital copy, it didn't look very good. I played around with the the digital copy on iPhoto, and came up with this. I didn't take the original, but as a tribute to the artistry of Sun photographer Ken Oakes, as seen in the other shots of this concert, I humbly offer this up. Hopefully he won't be offended. ATTACH]4553[/ATTACH]

[hwume]

You are correct - it may have been an earlier date at the Cave. Taylor & the group arrived at Motown in summer 1967.

[marv2]

The Supremes' Vancouver date at the Cave is significant: that's when the opening act was, under another name, the group that became Bobby Taylor & the Vancouvers. Mary and Flo stayed for the after-hours show, when the Cave became a hip nightclub called the Elegant Parlor and the Vancouvers transformed into the local main attraction. Mary and Flo liked what they saw and heard, called Berry Gordy, who flew in to see the band – and signed them. M&F = talent scouts.

Exactly! Mary and Bobby Taylor have both retold that story many times. Just to think, had Mary and Flo not "discovered" Bobby & the Vancouvers, we may never have had "The Jackson Five", Michael Jackson, Janet Jackson, Jermaine Jackson, "Cheech & Chong" or Rae Dawn Chong [[ok, ok, I may be stretching things abit with that last one hehehehehehe!).

[marv2]

R. Mark Desjardins, Bobby Taylor talks about this time and meeting Mary and Florence in detail in a fairly recent interview from Hong Kong that was link to this site a while back. I'll look for it and repost it if I find it.

Marv

[R. Mark Desjardins]

Marv, that would be wonderful if you could find a link to that Bobby Taylor interview. Cheers. Mark

[marv2]

Marv, that would be wonderful if you could find a link to that Bobby Taylor interview. Cheers. Mark

Mark, I found the thread with the link in it and bumped to the top of the forum earlier today. I'll do it again now

[marv2]

Marv, that would be wonderful if you could find a link to that Bobby Taylor interview. Cheers. Mark

Mark. It's done. Look now at the thread called "Bobby taylor interview"

[franjoy56]

The Supremes at the Copa is a gem of an album, it wasn't just about Diana it was about the three of them all of them contributed to the success of that engagement and the album as well, it was their most successful live release as the Supremes at #11 it wasn't the end of the Supremes at this point it was just beginning, and Diana's emergence of course continued to spark with each new release afterward. Diana has said in interviews that people started pitting us against each other picking their favorite supreme which eventually would be the start of supremes rivalries. Diana has said some very nice things in her 1976 Diana CD release about her partners Mary & Flo and it should always be cherished fans will always try to tear it apart.

[mannyc]

I wonder if any video was taken at these shows, Would be nice to have a cd/dvd package.

[RossHolloway]

Those are some wonderful pictures of the group. Hopefully we'll be treated to more. Thanks for sharing those.

[dplain]

supremes at the copa
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICCicdozffM

[ivyfield]

Here you go:

www.womr.org [[http://www.womr.org)

Tuesday, 6 to 9 PM, ET Hi guys.
I don't know if the podcast is yet available but one is supposed to be sooner or later.

I just searched the WOMR site - there's 2 shows available to listen to from the 'Nightflight' series. Go to podcasts/shows/nightflight and you'll find them. There isn't a direct link on the stations homepage. The broadcasts are certainly worth listening to. Steve.

[Constantin]

As Mae West apparently said once: "I have not met, nor have I any intention to meet, this Miss Madonna.

The exact quote is: "She wants to remake MY movie? I have not, or have I been asked to, speak to this "Miss Madonna"." And it is Marlene Dietrich speaking about Sternberg classic film "Der Blaue Engel".

[ivyfield]

Here you go:

www.womr.org [[http://www.womr.org)

Tuesday, 6 to 9 PM, ET

I don't know if the podcast is yet available but one is supposed to be sooner or later.
The 'More Hits expanded' episode is there. You just have to search past the WOMR homepage. Their website is a little 'clunky'.

[thisoldheart]

jeez, listening to all of these show tunes with a cheesy house band reminds me why i could never figure out their attraction back when barry gordy had this grandiose plan for his acts. what i would have given if the live albums had been recorded in detroit with the snake pit crew and all they sang was one motown hit after another. no wonder i switched to jimi and sly! sorry this stuff never did a thing for me, and sounds even worse in retrospect!

[nabob]

jeez, listening to all of these show tunes with a cheesy house band reminds me why i could never figure out their attraction back when barry gordy had this grandiose plan for his acts. what i would have given if the live albums had been recorded in detroit with the snake pit crew and all they sang was one motown hit after another. no wonder i switched to jimi and sly! sorry this stuff never did a thing for me, and sounds even worse in retrospect!The results may not have been too different. The Four Tops recorded at the Roostertail; I believe the Tempts first live LP and the Vandellas' live LP both were recorded in Detroit. If you give a listen to the "hits" from these LPs, they all seem rushed at frantic paces. Berry Gordy did succeed with his plan to appeal to audiences who bought more than 45s. If he hadn't I doubt that we'd be here discussing the music today.

[bankhousedave]

I'm still working on who those musicians might be. Marvin Marshall on guitar? I don't think it's Tony Newton on bass. He played some big venues with most of the Motown roster, but he never mentioned the Copa as far as I recall. It surely isn't Jamerson. Nate Watts? Ralphe Armstrong?

[thisoldheart]

The results may not have been too different. The Four Tops recorded at the Roostertail; I believe the Tempts first live LP and the Vandellas' live LP both were recorded in Detroit. If you give a listen to the "hits" from these LPs, they all seem rushed at frantic paces. Berry Gordy did succeed with his plan to appeal to audiences who bought more than 45s. If he hadn't I doubt that we'd be here discussing the music today.
i respectfully disagree. motown is only remembered for their vast string of hits. nobody listens to this show biz stuff simply because it is so cheesy. people who liked the las vegas stuff listen to the experts in that field like frank sinatra. do you want to hear frankie sing "reach out"? i would guess not!

[Glenpwood]

The Copa album is a fabulous document of a historic moment in pop history. Its also the engagement that breaks down the door so The Supremes [[and most of the Motown roster that follows behind) can bring contemporary pop and soul into these top tier entertainment venues that normally only catered to rich white audiences. Its easy to dismiss standards and Tin Pan Alley songs as cheesy but they require a certain talent and technique to sing them without falling into lounge act parody. Have you ever noticed the Motown acts that were particularly good at them were also the acts that seemed to have the longest overall hit spans? A lot of that stems from having the talent to be able to tackle different musical styles and sounds as popular tastes shifted. Even The Beatles performed standards, go play the Live At The BBC discs. Of course they didnt have to learn to twirl straw hats and canes like DMF did but they had the same aim as Berry Gordy, to get their music to reach the ears of all audiences, not just the kids. It sounds calculating to say it was only done for those purposes but its been well documented in the Supremes case that The girls were concerned with doing such a standards heavy set for the Copa opening. It wasnt until Cholly and Berry pointed out that the audience wasnt going to know Buttered Popcorn or Let Me Go The Right Way that they relented and trusted their judgement. As we all know their call was correct and the standards worked beautifully to enlarge The Supremes popularity. I look forward to buying this and hope everyone else does as well.

[robbert]

Can somebody please make crystal clear to me what this upcoming Copa disc might contain.
The 1965 Copa album PLUS never before released material from those performances and/or that timeline, or never before released material from 1967 Copa performances?
Or both?

[robbert]

lord have mercy..ive been away from SDF for a year and folks are still debating the "Diane" thing !!Many of these folks MAY be new to the forum, at least newer than many, many threads that have been rolling through the mud here in the past six to eight years... or more?

[thisoldheart]

after aretha signed to atlantic and hit the big time, her live albums, take "aretha; live at the fillmore", had a real band behind her [[king curtis), the sweet inspirations backing her, and ray charles as a guest. when she sang popular standards she controlled them, and made them her own. she was popular without pandering to her audience. motown was and is taken seriously for its enormous run of well made singles. its consistent and amazing stable of singers, musicians, songwriters, and producers. it is not remembered for its poorly conceived lounge acts. gordy should have left the copa biz to singers more suited to that venue, like johnny mathis or sammy davis jr. gordy's company never survived the loss of h/d/h perhaps because gordy was getting his fingers into too many ill conceived adventures. luckily a few of his singers became musicians. stevie wonder and marvin gaye managed to carry on the work motown started, but they did so by not following gordy's marching orders. you can love motown for its wondrous history, but one should be able to be critical enough to see its faults.

[ejluther]

Can somebody please make crystal clear to me what this upcoming Copa disc might contain.
The 1965 Copa album PLUS never before released material from those performances and/or that timeline, or never before released material from 1967 Copa performances?
Or both?
It could be both - it's all speculation at this point. Hopefully we'll get some official details soon...

[robbert]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICCicdozffM - Supremes At The Copa 1967 -Part 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xY3s_d9WrTE&feature=related - Supremes At The Copa 1967 -Part 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xf4GFdUjKFU&feature=related - Supremes At The Copa 1967: You Can't Hurry Love

[thisoldheart]

jeez, is it possible to run through a hit like "you can't hurry love" any faster with this half assed lounge band, just so you can make it to "put on a happy face"? what the hell was everybody thinking when they planned this? no wonder the record buying public youth market [[which is where the money was) jumped over to sly as soon as hipper options were available. this is something my mom might have listened to, but then added that the andrew sisters were tighter!

[franjoy56]

I was quite greatful for having the Supremes on the radio in 1965, because we could not hear anything on white radio other than the Supremes/Motown Fontella Bass and James Brown's two hits in 1965., Sly and the funkier music didn't get here or at least on pop radio until 1967 and by then we had Aretha Franklin. The Supremes had their own sound down and according to my ears they outsang the Andrew Sisters on the Sam Davis Special in 1966.

[jobeterob]

Welcome back Nomis.............and now, you know we'll be talking about Diana forever; to those that knew her personally, the term of endearment was Diane; and also is to those fans who aren't close to her but wanna be. LOL.

I agree with the point made by Fran and Glen that this is a landmark recording, much like the Central Park concert. And I couldn't hear and R&B/Soul music at all until Berry and the Supremes broke it all open.

But while I feel that way about these posts, the Supremes at the Copa isn't critical music for me; the Motown live albums aren't the greatest; the Supremes Millie Rose and Mame medley was quite something but I don't need another sped up live version of Baby Love/Stop in the Name of Love/Where Did Our Love Go. I would much rather have Baby It's Me and Diana Ross 1976.

[thisoldheart]

Welcome back Nomis.............and now, you know we'll be talking about Diana forever; to those that knew her personally, the term of endearment was Diane; and also is to those fans who aren't close to her but wanna be. LOL.

I agree with the point made by Fran and Glen that this is a landmark recording, much like the Central Park concert. And I couldn't hear and R&B/Soul music at all until Berry and the Supremes broke it all open.

But while I feel that way about these posts, the Supremes at the Copa isn't critical music for me; the Motown live albums aren't the greatest; the Supremes Millie Rose and Mame medley was quite something but I don't need another sped up live version of Baby Love/Stop in the Name of Love/Where Did Our Love Go. I would much rather have Baby It's Me and Diana Ross 1976.
nobody has ever said that motown wasn't the refreshing sound on the radio waves, but people seem to forget that black performers were on pop stations. ever heard of sam cooke? gordy wasn't the only man with a plan. however, he certainly had the best plan for pop radio. the supremes at the copa, along with the liverpool, c/w, and christmas albums certainly diluted what was otherwise a rather stupendous string of pop hits for the supremes. to think that playing the copa is some kind of ultimate showplace for motown is absurd. it is exactly where they should not have been singing if the wanted to be taken seriously as singers. pandering to the older, rich, white crowd was not a smooth move to make. that audience did not love that kind of music. kids loved it. i saw the supremes in portland around this time in at a large venue as the the entertainment part of an autos show. i loved their records, but couldn't believe how lame their act was. they sang well, but had a pickup band, and sang all of those silly show tunes, while running through their hits as an afterthought ... a rushed medley. none of my friends were impressed. but we continued to buy their hits. i doubt they gained any older people in the venue as fans with their show tunes. just listen to johnny mathis if you want to hear how a class lounge act should sound. as i said before, there is a time and place for everything. the copa/lounge bit is just not cool, just as hearing johnny mathis singing "love is like an itchin' in my heart" would be oh so painful to one's ears.

[Jimi LaLumia]

I don't know how old or young you are, how aware of how racist America was in 1965, but I was 13, and The Copa was the height of mainstream show biz in an era when "Rat Pack" was where it's at[[Sinatra, Dean Martin, Sammy etc)...
older white folks did love The Supremes, who were as non threatening as it gets; my mom leraned to love them, and the rich lady who I raked leaves for saw them at another prestige site, The Fountainbleu in Florida and said she loved them but "they were too loud!"...
and the show tunes angle enabled them to cross over into becoming regulars on the Ed Sulivan Show , the most powerful vehicle for selling records on TV in the 60s[[just ask Elvis or The Beatles);
the group's ability to interact with old school icons like Ethel Merman cemented them as on going decade spanning black faces that America loved, not for '15 minutes" like Sam Cooke,or the hordes of nameless, faceless black hit makers that came and went..
The Supremes were the ultimate weapon in the civil rights war of the 60s and The Copa was their "Normandy/D Day" victorious landing...
it was an historic moment in pop culture; if you weren't around to put things in context, then quit talking out of your ass...
for pop culture purposes, The Supremes At The Copa is probaby the most significant title in their catalog alongside the double Greatest Hits album...any true Motown fan will have to own one

[RossHolloway]

@Thisoldheart, ok we get it, you didn't care for when the Motown acts strayed from their original Motown material. Well not everyone feels that way. I certainly don't feel that way. When I first heard the Supreme's Copa album I fell in love with it and still love it to this day. I was not fortunate enough to be alive to ever see the Supreme's live in concert so their Copa album and all their live material at least gives me the opportunity to close my eyes and just imagine what it would have been like to have seen them live and on stage. I can also understand and appreciate what Berry Gordy was trying to do for his top acts and why he wanted more for them then just the chitlin circuit. Berry wanted the Motown sound to appeal not just to African-Americans, he wanted everyone who would listen to take notice of his musical acts, and he succeeded.

Things were much different back during the 1960's where many doors were closed to black artist simply because of the color of their skin regardless of how talented they were. Berry set out to prove that his acts just weren't R&B acts, but they were world class entertainers and they could entertain any and everywhere from the Greystone Ballroom in Detroit to in front of heads of states half way around the world. You can call it pandering or selling out or what ever derogatory word you can think of, but the fact remains that Berry Gordy's plan worked, those acts reached the upper echelons of staredom, and many still perform all around the world in part because of the ground work that was laid out during the 1960's and by their abilities to reach a wider audience beyond just the r&b crowds or pop crowds. On the newly released Expanded Edition of Diana Ross's 1976 album in the interview that she gives, DianA plainly states that she sings and records different types of music because she ENJOYS all different types of music herself and she makes no apologies for it, nor should she. I think it's unfortunate that you would want to pigeon-hole The Supreme's or any group for that matter, into being just one type of artist and restrict them to singing just one genre of music simply because you aren't open-minded enough to seeing them do more.

[honest man]

Hello people been listening to THERES A PLACE-ROGERS AND HART CDS over the weekend put myself a nice mix from these cds, a refreshing change from the Motown sound.there are some classic vocals and production on these albums, gonna play my cd now, they were trailblaizers, cheers.

[thisoldheart]

i was the same age as you jimi! the supremes had already been on ed sullivan and sold out the show i saw in portland, which is a pretty white city, and played the same large venue as the beatles. so, they certainly had no problem selling out venues much larger than the copa. the copa was an entrance for any act that wanted to enter the las vegas/lounge act scene. you never saw the beatles trying to go there!

what i am trying to say is that by entering into the type of show they reduced their credibility with their fans. by 1967 they still continued down this road while pop/rock acts were doing their own shows and trying to get gigs at the filmoore. aretha did this and to great advantage. listen to her "aretha, live at the filmoore" to get an idea of a real class act show that appealed to her fan base, and also brought more white fans into her fold because she had a "cool" factor that motown was loosing. why do you think whitfield/strong went into high gear trying to remake the temptations in a sly stone sound alike group?

only marvin gaye and stevie wonder continued to have a strong connection with the record buying youth public, and that is becaused they refused to record the less than stellar work that motown was now producing. if you read any difinative books on popular music history, you will never see the live or themed motown album listed as part of what made the company outstanding in the world of music.

i realize many of you are saying the copa shows opened doors for motown into lounge venues of rich, white america, but where did that get them? those people were not going to buy their records or become long term fans. motown's bread and butter were their incomparable huge string of hit singles, and is what made the company historically famous.

so many people here seem focused on everything but motown's true music mark on history. i am not sure i have ever read more type dedicated to gowns, hairstyles ... or, the constant inane bickering between which supreme is the classiest! the sound is in the groove! if you use your ears instead of every other nonsensical emotion you will not be led astray into believing motown's live shows catering to old rich white americans is where the heart and soul of motown is located!

[Jimi LaLumia]

you seem to forget that in 1967, rock and roll[[and soul) were still regarded as passing fads, a decade old;
Gordy's moves positioned acts like The Supremes and The Temptations to endure whatever came next;
a Motown hating Rolling stone magazine poisoned the well for 'hip rock fans' in regard to Motown, as the then closeted[[and racist) Jann Wenner determined that black singers should always be screaming and sweating[[Tina Turner, James Brown Aretha) and they should leave the 'classy stuff' for the white people...they should know their place in the scheme of things..

sorry, I was a gay white Italian kid , I didn't buy the Rolling Stone propganda then, and I don't buy it now...
but I WILL buy "At The Copa" in breathless anticipation...

[thisoldheart]

so are you saying aretha ain't a class act? wow! and rolling stone loved marvin. i don't think i ever saw marvin sweat ...

[Jimi LaLumia]

Aretha is a class act,I love her, but she wasn't doing 'classy' Rogers & Hart material or anything that was considered too 'white'..
and Rolling Stone didn't love Marvin during the 60's period when, as he put it himself, he was 'shaking his ass for Berry Gordy"...lol
they loved his 70's output when "What's Going On" came along, and shortly thereafter, thanks to "Lady Sings The Blues", they finally put Diana Ross on the cover;
from it's inception in 1967 right up to 1970, a Motown artist was NEVER featured on the cover of Rolling Stone and when they wrote about Motown during this period,I remember that it was ALWAYS derogatory, put downish, dismissive BS..

[thisoldheart]

well, i am not surprised that rolling stone wasn't on board for motown during the post h/d/h slow decline, and they were not publishing during motown's heyday. they certainly did support motown's two superstar musicians, marvin gaye, and stevie wonder. the magazine was more about music than show biz in their early years [[not now!) so it is easy for me to see how they were dismissive, because that's the way i became when motown seemed adrift and unable to keep up with popular music. it was very hard to watch the sequined über stylized routine that the motown acts continued to use when sly was mixing up the scene with his talented, fresh sounding, and looking integrated group. as for wenner being rascict ... hmm ... i just don't buy that. i bought too many good records by black artists based on rolling stone's record reviews. i think in retrospect gordy was out of touch with the record buying public by the late '60's. he certainly was against gaye's groundbreaking work, and didn't seem to have much faith in wonder's. he may have been trying to prep his acts for longevity, but it turned out that the two people that made the most significant contribution to music history did not get there with his blessings!

[RossHolloway]

People seem to forget that prior to landing at Atlantic Records in late 66 she recorded quite a few pop/standard albums and singles at Capital Records, she was not singing hardcore r&b/soul records that she became famous for later at Atlantic. And while I agree that Sly and the Family Stone were a great act, I don't think they can really be compared to the success and longevity of the Motown's greats. Sly and the Family Stone released just 20 singles between 1967 and 1976, 10 of those singles made the Pop Top 40 and 15 made the R&B top 40. By 1975/6 the group had basically imploded. All popular groups rise and fall; from the Supremes to the Beatles to the Rolling Stones to Sly and the Family Stone, it's just a fact of the music business.

And as a teenage growing up in the 80's no one I knew ever read Rolling Stone magazine. The magazine was geared primarily towards rock and roll white male musicians. There's nothing wrong with that, there's a market for that segment of musical taste, it's regarded as an authority on that segment of music, but not of all music. I think the last time I actually read the magazine was when there was the article on General McCrystal about two years ago that ended up costing him his military career. Aside from that, the magazine isn't much talked about.

[Roger Polhill]

At least Aretha put soul into her pop/standards the Supremes didn`t.If they had I would have found them more acceptable. I do own "At The Copa" and will purchase the new one.

[Roger Polhill]

I mean that if they had Motowned them, then they would have been more credible. I`m working through their Hollywood Palace performances "white" and cheesy. Give me Gladys Knight`s performances any day.

[jobeterob]

For me, Aretha's low point was when she tried to dress and look like Diana Ross and did her supper club bit. The Supremes did a better job of the standards, a much classier job of the standards than Aretha did. She should have stayed in her Respect, Spirit in the Dark mode and skipped the skimpy outfits and the glitz and glam.

But every singer, male or female, if they've been around as long as Aretha and Diana.........they all have their ups and downs.

I will buy the Copa but it'll never be near the list of my favorites.

[Jimi LaLumia]

Aretha could NEVER look like Diana Ross...she's just not FABULOUS enough!!!...

[thisoldheart]

come now, aretha is has always been fabulous on the inside, where it counts. don't be so superficial! and i surprised that some of the history lessons people have been giving are written by people who weren't even born to live through motown's golden age. i was a pretty aware kid during all of the '60's, so don't dismiss my comments quite so quickly, children! [[i am teasing all of you young things a bit, but there is a whole lotta knowledge that comes with age ... just sayin')

[Jimi LaLumia]

...can't help it...I'm a SUPREMES FAN!!!!...lol...[[I do Love Aretha..just not as much, if ya know what I mean..)

[jobeterob]

I agree with these words from all of you...........

And I have never heard a bad word said by Diana about Aretha or Aretha about Diana; luckily Diana steered clear of the Queen of Soul title though and luckily Aretha never fell on Diana in Aretha's big days. I've read that Aretha stayed with Diana in the Connecticut house in the good old days.

They are the two major female artists of their time..........very different, very distinctive, legendary and due all the respect in the world.

[marv2]

You insult the great Aretha when you even say anything to compare her with Diane Ross. Aretha is an original, Aretha is the Queen!

[luke]

Nice to read some creative thinking here! Though the loss of HDH was great Motown subsequently had 3 records in the top 5! Cheesy true but I think the they transcended cheese and most didnt care. At the height of the chesse they hit number one with Love Child-calculated yes but that still didnt stop them or Motown. We are still all talking about them today!

[atcsm]

I say we celebrate the beauty of both Aretha and Diana - no reason to pit them against each other. I'm just glad they are both performing still and bringing joy to the fans.

[atcsm]

Plus they both sold out Radio City in New York and the Ryman in Nashville so let's just say "yea" for the fans that got to see these two legendary divas without any dissing of the venue. Both ladies seem to "respect" each other - shall we agree to this or continue to divide???

[jobeterob]

Aretha and Diana are legendary, icons, divas, great, fabulous and all those other words. They are the two ultimate female singers/entertainers from their era. And friends. And respectful.

[atcsm]

Can we all agree with this?

[franjoy56]

One of the finest moments on the Copa platter show is when the Supremes sing "Make Someone Happy" where Diana is coasting along and Mary and Flo come up behind her at the climax, and Flo hits that high note it is fabulous The Copa was the Supremes strength in 1965.

[thisoldheart]

One of the finest moments on the Copa platter show is when the Supremes sing "Make Someone Happy" where Diana is coasting along and Mary and Flo come up behind her at the climax, and Flo hits that high note it is fabulous The Copa was the Supremes strength in 1965.
so the strength of the supremes output in 1965 was "make someone happy" from the copa album, and not "stop! in the name of love", "nothing but heartaches", and "back in my arms again"? sounds like another history rewrite!

[floyjoy678]

I've said it before and I'll say it again Diana, Mary and Florence [[in my opinion) were the best out of all the Motown groups when it came to harmonizing and singing in unison and when they did those standards and showtunes they were kicking ass. Each of them had very distinct voices and that just made it even better. I'll listen to the Copa album and the Rodgers and Hart album anyday. My favorite "standard" that they do will always be "Somewhere" just Diana's input in the song and then Mary and Flo's backgrounds make the song so great.

[nabob]

what i am trying to say is that by entering into the type of show they reduced their credibility with their fans. by 1967 they still continued down this road while pop/rock acts were doing their own shows and trying to get gigs at the filmoore. aretha did this and to great advantage. listen to her "aretha, live at the filmore" to get an idea of a real class act show that appealed to her fan base, and also brought more white fans into her fold because she had a "cool" factor that motown was loosing.I was there on one of the nights. The audience was about 70 percent white composed mostly of San Francisco "hippies". "Hippies" were not Aretha's fan base. It was an interesting outing. So many were stoned and just groovin' on the lady's music. A lot of doobies were burned during that concert.

[thisoldheart]

whites were a large part of aretha's fan base. me and my hippy friends can vouch for that!

[Roger Polhill]

She wasn`t called Lady Soul for nothing.

[honest man]

Listened to the THERES A PLACE-ROGERS AND HART Sessions again yesterday,maybe im older but love these songs even more. the production and vocals are wonderful suggest you dig them out and give them a whirl,the Supremes where really top of the game at this time.Also love the standards from IHAS album,they sound so good mixed in with the other 2 albums,not a great lover of the live sets will buy though,maybe go back in sequence and give us an expanded CW ,We remember Sam ,better still,cheers.

[johnny_raven]

My father could never understand why I liked the Supremes. Then, in 1987, when the first Rodgers and Hart CD was released, I played it in my room when my dad came in to ask what I was listening to. Long story short, the CD went missing. Where do you suppose I found it? In my dad's CD player. It became a regular favorite of his ... especially when he had friends over.

[bankhousedave]

My grandad was a jazzman who dismissed pop music on the old three-chord premise, but he, too, started to take notice when he heard the Rodgers and Hart LP. Even borrowed it to grace his precious hi-fi system and conferred his approval verbally.

[davidh]

the Supremes certainly had many hits but they did have great harmony and there are some wonderful cover show tunes by these ladies. i also like the ROGERS AND HART album. the COPA album grew on me over the years now that i am older and wiser and i enjoy some of these songs much better. the THERES A PLACE FOR US cd also has some wonderful tracks and shows why these ladies reigned supreme amd still are.

[LadySingsBlues]

Well this thread has been a great, interesting read. For the record, I do enjoy the covers... just for the fact that they are a good demonstration of their versatility at the time.

[redlabs]

i thought they did really good with THE BOY FROM INPANEMA., SOMEWHERE, MAKE SOMEONE HAPPY,MORE.

[Jimi LaLumia]

The Supremes were true ground breakers, in the areas of crossing to white pop[[what other black artists had 12 Pop #1's in the 60's?...no one, that's who)...and in the area of pop culture and it's impact on civil rights...and "At The Copa" is a major milestone in both regards..

[robbert]

[Laughing] It took a while, but there is was: the word 'white'.
How was it put in the sixties? Because of the increasing number of standards The Supremes were not 'black' enough, remember? Back then people didn't realize they never were THAT black, to begin with. No, don't even think about going there again, discussing what 'black' or 'white' music exactly is or should be.

I'm going on topic again. What I hear in the few clips that float around of the Copa '67 show, the hits were rushed over the top, there was no place, let alone breath, to harmonize.
And the content of that 1967 show, is it not that some 80% of it is the same material as their show in 1968/'69? In short: their Talk Of The Town live album?
Listen to You Can't Hurry Love from the Copa 1967 and you can hear the hick ups of the lead singer growing in number, slowly but surely. They were not there in the Copa 1965.
On Talk Of The Town the show had become Diana Ross' [[& The Supremes).

[smark21]

I think the Copa album is intersting as a piece of show business history. The show itself hasn't aged well. Just think, The Supremes have had 5 #1 hits in a row and for their live show, they do mostly covers and show tunes. One of the hits is not performed, and two of the others are performed as a medley using a big band arrangement. Imagine if Adele were to go on tour singing mostly covers and Broadway songs while relegating her hits to a rearranged medley and leaving out her first hit Chasing Pavements? Just would not be done today.

Oddly enough though, when they do segue into Baby Love [[after that corny intro song written for the show), the crowd goes wild. Perhaps Gordy underestimated the Copa audience's ability to appreciate The Supremes when they did their own songs? Still, from a business standpoint, going the Copa route was a lucrative decision for Motown. And within the socio cultural politics of 1965, it was viewed as an achievement, a breakthrough. Yet a few years later, The Supremes were being criticized for not "being black enough". What was an achievement in 65 looked like selling out a few years later.

But I do think of all the Motown acts, The Supremes were the best fit for this kind of show. However of their 3 Nightclub live albums, I like Farewell the best because the set list has more of their own material. And the cover songs and show tunes are much better quality. Rodgers and Hart and Cole Porter are far superior to hoaky, if entertaining, vaudeville songs like Rock a Bye Your Baby with a Dixie Melody and You're Nobody til Somebody Loves You.

[Jimi LaLumia]

those songs were not hokey in 1965, they were show biz standards, 'musts' in a room like The Copa at that time...and the people in that audience were not primarily buyers of Supremes 45's, but they most likely started buying albums with standards on them like I Hear a Symphony shortly thereafter...
Adele ,if she was around in 1965, would be Dusty Springfield or Petula Clark, and she would, indeed, be doing standards in her act..how you can culturally compare 2012 to 1965 as the same circumstances is beyond me.
as to 'not black enough', this was the era of black power, 65-69, and The Supremes bravely swam upstream, resisting the stereo types that black power was actually re enforcing...
jump ahead to not black enough in the 2000's when black stars magically start turning white, literally, and go tell them that they're not 'black enough'...lol

[thisoldheart]

no, i think the adele comparison is fair. gordy did not trust his own motown sound to win over this audience and thereby gave that audience a show that was not representative of the group's strength. the showtune songs they spent a large part singing were not compulsory for this venue, at least not in the way they were presented.

if gordy had used real sense, he would have made sure that the snake pit crew were at least present on the nights this show was recorded to augment and give authority to the recording and had h/d/h arrange any non supreme material. then the show would have had an authentic motown edge to it. think of what h/d/h did with "the happening" which is basically a show tune [[that they did not write), or their work with the four tops covers of "if i were a carpenter" or "walk away renee". that can give you an insight into how this show could really have made record history.

dusty springfield would never have done a show like the copa album. yes, she would have included work outside of her own hits, but being the perfectionist that she was, much like aretha, later, she would have turned those songs into her own. the supremes basically backtracked and performed a dated sounding set, when they were considered at this time to be quite hip and chic. the audience would have eaten up this fresh approach and the result would be written about today as being a landmark live recording rather than a record that only completists purchase.

[Jimi LaLumia]

and I contend that, by 1965 standards, this did not sound dated;
and releasing an album with the snake pit crew would insinuate to people buying the album that this is what they'd get when they went to see The Supremes'live', which would have been false advertising..the "Motown Sound" never came across 'live' as it did in the studio,
and they generally left The Andantes home..
I'd like you to mention one edgy, 1965 'live' album that meets your criteria by any pop artist...you can't, cos it didn't exist yet..it was still early days in this phase of pop culture

[honest man]

Hello, i wonder if the songs recorded onTHERES A PLACE FOR US were dubbed onto the later Copa album,seem to remember Diana recorded alt vocals for the live....... Album,just a thought . cheers

[RossHolloway]

no, i think the adele comparison is fair. gordy did not trust his own motown sound to win over this audience and thereby gave that audience a show that was not representative of the group's strength. the showtune songs they spent a large part singing were not compulsory for this venue, at least not in the way they were presented.

if gordy had used real sense, he would have made sure that the snake pit crew were at least present on the nights this show was recorded to augment and give authority to the recording and had h/d/h arrange any non supreme material. then the show would have had an authentic motown edge to it. think of what h/d/h did with "the happening" which is basically a show tune [[that they did not write), or their work with the four tops covers of "if i were a carpenter" or "walk away renee". that can give you an insight into how this show could really have made record history.

dusty springfield would never have done a show like the copa album. yes, she would have included work outside of her own hits, but being the perfectionist that she was, much like aretha, later, she would have turned those songs into her own. the supremes basically backtracked and performed a dated sounding set, when they were considered at this time to be quite hip and chic. the audience would have eaten up this fresh approach and the result would be written about today as being a landmark live recording rather than a record that only completists purchase.

Well it's a good think Berry Gordy didn't have someone like you around to give him advise. The very fact that you're talking about one album that was recorded almost 47 years ago really proves who was right on the direction of the Supreme's and Motown as a whole and it's not you. LMFAO. You cannot be serious with your analysis. The Supreme's are icons and in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, now who are you again?

[davidh]

just a quick point,, the Supremes did perform WHERE DID OUR LOVE GO and NOTHING BUT HEARTACHES along with a few other numbers but they were edited out of the final album. not sure why but i suppose they just wanted to showcase the standards and not release the THERES A PLACE FOR US album. although i ,as a teenager would have preferred more of the hits.
maybe those songs may have not recorded well and they this may be why they were delletted. i suppose we will find out in a few months.wonder if they will release this in july to coincide with the original release date of the performance?

[reese]

just a quick point,, the Supremes did perform WHERE DID OUR LOVE GO and NOTHING BUT HEARTACHES along with a few other numbers but they were edited out of the final album. not sure why but i suppose they just wanted to showcase the standards and not release the THERES A PLACE FOR US album. although i ,as a teenager would have preferred more of the hits.
maybe those songs may have not recorded well and they this may be why they were delletted. i suppose we will find out in a few months.wonder if they will release this in july to coincide with the original release date of the performance?

I think WHERE DID OUR LOVE GO, NOTHING BUT HEARTACHES, and ENJOY YOURSELF were recorded during the first Copa engagement, but didn't make the album. They were held back for another live album to be released in 1966, but that one never came out.

[thisoldheart]

I'd like you to mention one edgy, 1965 'live' album that meets your criteria by any pop artist...you can't, cos it didn't exist yet..it was still early days in this phase of pop culture

well, james brown's "live at the apollo" from, i believe, 1963 is considered to be one of the greatest live albums recorded in the rock&soul world, and has never been out of print. sam cooke's "live at the copa" from 1964 sounds somewhat dated, but retains cooke's essence without taking the soul out of him. it is also in print today.

[marv2]

well, james brown's "live at the apollo" from, i believe, 1963 is considered to be one of the greatest live albums recorded in the rock&soul world, and has never been out of print. sam cooke's "live at the copa" from 1964 sounds somewhat dated, but retains cooke's essence without taking the soul out of him. it is also in print today.

Great point thisoldheart, although I believe James' live album was recorded and released in 1962.

[Jimi LaLumia]

The brown album hardly qualifies as a mainstream pop crossover, and he never was a major pop album chart seller in the 60's..it just didn't happen..
and the Sam Cooke album is just as dated and 'corny' as you percieve The Copa album to be

[marv2]

You know, I've been to the original Copa, the one the Supremes performed in. That was a bit before my time and the night I was first there, Chico DeBarge was debutting his new single "Talk to Me Baby" LOL! But what really struck was how small that place was! I was just bigger than my parents living room it seemed. It still have same paintings on the was as when the Supremes opened there in 1965.

[ejluther]

In addition to Gordy's "we've got the kids, now I want their parents" approach, I always thought the nightclub act was different also because teenagers/kids weren't admitted - it would have been adults only, yes? And, no, stars of today could never get away with having two acts - one for teenagers and one for adults - but can that only be seen as a good thing? If you like both sides of The Supremes [[as I do), then having both their studio recordings and live records like AT THE COPA is like having your cake and eating it, too...

[Jimi LaLumia]

rock nroll/teenage music in 65 was still considered a 'passing fad'..I used to hear that said all the time back then...'it won't last...this was planning for 'the future'..

[smark21]

I think WHERE DID OUR LOVE GO, NOTHING BUT HEARTACHES, and ENJOY YOURSELF were recorded during the first Copa engagement, but didn't make the album. They were held back for another live album to be released in 1966, but that one never came out.

Well hopefully these songs will be included on the re-issue. Though Enjoy Yourself doesn't sound very promising. The concert already has too many "Happy, Smile," type songs, not to mention that schmalzy love monologue in the middle of Somewhere. Just so much schmalz in the set. I get why this is not regarded outside of die hard Ross/Supremes fan circles as a classic. Too much pandering to the perceived tastes of of adult night club customers. But they had to start somewhere with their nightclub act and by January 1970, they had a very slick act with a much better set list.

[smark21]

those songs were not hokey in 1965, they were show biz standards, 'musts' in a room like The Copa at that time...and the people in that audience were not primarily buyers of Supremes 45's, but they most likely started buying albums with standards on them like I Hear a Symphony shortly thereafter...
Adele ,if she was around in 1965, would be Dusty Springfield or Petula Clark, and she would, indeed, be doing standards in her act..how you can culturally compare 2012 to 1965 as the same circumstances is beyond me.
as to 'not black enough', this was the era of black power, 65-69, and The Supremes bravely swam upstream, resisting the stereo types that black power was actually re enforcing...
jump ahead to not black enough in the 2000's when black stars magically start turning white, literally, and go tell them that they're not 'black enough'...lol


What objections do you have to the Black Power movement of the 60's?

[thisoldheart]

this was the era of black power, 65-69, and The Supremes bravely swam upstream, resisting the stereo types that black power was actually re enforcing..
obviously some people need to read a few history books around here!

[thisoldheart]

The brown album hardly qualifies as a mainstream pop crossover, and he never was a major pop album chart seller in the 60's..it just didn't happen..
and the Sam Cooke album is just as dated and 'corny' as you percieve The Copa album to be

so how do you account for brown's "live at the apollo" being rated #24 of the 500 greatest albums of all time by rolling stone magazine, and never being out of print?

and i have listened to sam cooke's copa album. his album predates the supremes copa gig, yet his album manages to sound like a sam cooke record even when he does the obligatory lounge act material. remember, i never said the supremes shouldn't do something to appease the rich white crowd. i said that holland, dozier, and holland should have been called in to arrange the numbers!

[jobeterob]

I do have a bit of an answer here - I would account for James Brown as part of the old Rolling Stone bias. Rolling Stone is like the RRHoF. It's got lost in the last 10 years as well. Not as many readers, not as many advertisers; fragmented audience. It doesn't know who it's audience really is. So, it panders here and there to what it thinks it needs to pander to............which is exactly what the RRHoF does.

And neither of them think it is cool enough to pander in the directions of Motown, the Supremes, Temptations, Four Tops or Diana Ross ~ but they will pander to James Brown and Aretha Franklin and Marvin Gaye, but only a little bit.

Neither of them are very impressive institutions anymore. But if RS were to go in the direction of Diana Ross or the Supremes, it definitely would not be going toward the Copa album. More likely they would go to Diana Ross 1980 or 1976 or 1970, or sing HDH or Where Did Our Love Go.

[marv2]

those songs were not hokey in 1965, they were show biz standards, 'musts' in a room like The Copa at that time...and the people in that audience were not primarily buyers of Supremes 45's, but they most likely started buying albums with standards on them like I Hear a Symphony shortly thereafter...
Adele ,if she was around in 1965, would be Dusty Springfield or Petula Clark, and she would, indeed, be doing standards in her act..how you can culturally compare 2012 to 1965 as the same circumstances is beyond me.
as to 'not black enough', this was the era of black power, 65-69, and The Supremes bravely swam upstream, resisting the stereo types that black power was actually re enforcing...
jump ahead to not black enough in the 2000's when black stars magically start turning white, literally, and go tell them that they're not 'black enough'...lol


I am sorry and with all due respect.........You do not know what you are talking about when it comes to the Black Power Movement.

"resisting the stereo types that black power was actually re enforcing..."


That comment is so out in left field. Hell it is not even the ballpark. You also have the period dates wrong. It was more like 1968-72. The Supremes and Motown were pandering. Yes in order to play white establishment places like the Copa, they were expected to sing show biz standards, broadway stuff etc,etc. But they went way overboard with the pandering until they appeared to have no soul in their music. Live performances I am speaking of. On record HDH and the Funk Brothers held it down mostly for them.

[Jimi LaLumia]

I have nothing against the black power movement..I fully supported it when it counted..
but, like the worst parts of hip hop,it played up some ultimately damaging stereotypes, and I recall reading that The Supremes, through Gordy,about 1968, were threatened into wearing afros in public by some militant voices...which they suddenly did..
a person of color being told that they can't demonstrate their abilities to record and perform show tunes because it's not black enough is akin to a male homosexual being told that they better walk around in leather or in drag, otherwise they're sell outs and they're not gay enough...
the 'one size MUST fit all' fascist approach never flew with me, and it never will..

[Jimi LaLumia]

and Marv,,,with equal due respect, regarding comments being beyond left field...well, you're an expert in that art form quite often, so I'll defer to your 'wisdom'......lol..

[jobeterob]

It's well established that Marv's comments are many, Diane focused, and often completely "off the field"; and as that renowned expert, we all defer, even Mary.

[bankhousedave]

In the sixties, playing standards was not nearly the act of propitiation it might seem. Music was not nearly as ghettoised as it is now. All the kids knew the standards, and they were nothing to do with black or white. They were the bread and butter of jazz acts, and they were the acid test of a musician or singer. They would have been perceived as 'grown-up' music. If you want somebody to recognise your talent, you give 'em something they can get a handle on. An actor does Shakespeare and Chekov because the public knows what it's looking at and can tell how well he's doing it. If the material is unfamiliar, their attention is more on that. When Gene Pitney came to the UK and played the Palladium, he felt obliged to tear the liver and lights out of a recognised 'standard' in an effort to win over the adults and any Royals in the house. He then lost most of his audience by saying: 'Not bad for a pop singer, huh?' But that's another story.

Everyone did standards - even humble local beat groups. We played Summertime - nearly everyone did - and we knew we would be asked for others, which we were able to make some kind of fist of. When Bob Henrit was in Adam Faith's backing band, he had to do dance routines, including lifts, and they all took part in comedy sketches as well as backing other singers, whatever their material.

Marvin ONLY wanted to do standards, and all of the Funks would be brought up on them. Even Otis did Try A Little Tenderness, although its composer would barely have recognised it when Ike and he had finished with it.

I'm just working on a book about the beat groups who played around Bradford in the 60s. They often had to back singers and one lists their act as including rock & roll, pop, 'Ray Coniff type material' - and they even did Take Five!

The big problem for me with Copa and other live albums is that the Motown numbers sounded diabolical. The showbiz rearrangements and gung-ho tempo increases played merry hell with anything of the Motor City about them. They're an interesting document to hear the singers unaugmented, but they did no favours to the songs. We cringed then and I cringe now. But I'm always prepared to cringe one more time for the ladies and give them deserved props for carrying it off.

[Jimi LaLumia]

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USAcarmichael.htm
and no one needs to tell me what year everything took off; 1966/1967 is when the entire
world was exposed to Stokley and the youth movement/hippie movement conjoined around the Stokley book on Black Power;
by 1971, everything was about Viet Nam; 67/68/69 were the most potent earth shaking of the "Black Power/Black Panther years, which I supported[[except when it came to attempts to intimidate Motown,because Motown was so powerful, and the whole world was watching..)

[marv2]

and Marv,,,with equal due respect, regarding comments being beyond left field...well, you're an expert in that art form quite often, so I'll defer to your 'wisdom'......lol..



No, I just know that as a young black man growing up during those times who's parents, neighbors and others were involved in the black power/pride movement that what you said would have created a huge argument. In fact, it would have created a fight. This talk about the BLACK Supremes resisting stereotypes, that the BLACK power movement was reinforcing. WTF does that mean? What stereotypes were the Supremes trying to avoid? Their families were involved in the black power movement. Hell Mary Wilson's brother Roosevelt was a Black Panther! I stick by my earlier comment.....You do not what hell you are talking about in this instance. What you said was EXTREMELY offensive, but you do not realize that because you do not know what you talking at this moment!

Marv

[marv2]

so how do you account for brown's "live at the apollo" being rated #24 of the 500 greatest albums of all time by rolling stone magazine, and never being out of print?

and i have listened to sam cooke's copa album. his album predates the supremes copa gig, yet his album manages to sound like a sam cooke record even when he does the obligatory lounge act material. remember, i never said the supremes shouldn't do something to appease the rich white crowd. i said that holland, dozier, and holland should have been called in to arrange the numbers!

HDH should have arranged the numbers. Maurice King and Harvey Fuqua went overboard until the hits sounded like show tunes!

[marv2]

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USAcarmichael.htm
and no one needs to tell me what year everything took off; 1966/1967 is when the entire
world was exposed to Stokley and the youth movement/hippie movement conjoined around the Stokley book on Black Power;
by 1971, everything was about Viet Nam; 67/68/69 were the most potent earth shaking of the "Black Power/Black Panther years, which I supported[[except when it came to attempts to intimidate Motown,because Motown was so powerful, and the whole world was watching..)

Look! Stokley aka Kwume Toure has been to my house! Has eaten lunch in my dining room! If you want to get all technical the "Black Power" movement started in 1917 with Marcus Garvey as some folk believe. You are confusing what I consider an off shoot of the civil rights movement as the same thing. Hell Angela Davis wasn't even arrested until 1970! Everything to you may have been about Viet Nam by 1971.....not in the black community!

[marv2]

It's well established that Marv's comments are many, Diane focused, and often completely "off the field"; and as that renowned expert, we all defer, even Mary.

Jobeterob, the only thing that's been established is that you are essentially a Diana Ross Zombie and nothing in the outside World matters much to you. Someone else said that it is a bit scary when you can look around the forum and see 900 threads about the same singer and we all know you have started many of them about some of the most trivia stuff borderlining on the embarassing! LOL!

[Glenpwood]

Well I for one would love to know how David Ruffin liked his Steak Cooked, Betty Kelly's favorite color of finger nail polish, or how much Aqua Net Hair Spray it took to hold Brenda Holloway's hair together but until someone starts those "trivial" threads we'll never know. ;)

The complains its all Diana Ross and or the Supremes topics around here all the time are tired because its so easy to fix by starting a new topic about a different act. I look forward to seeing what the members of this forum come up with.

Now can we head back to the actual Copa at East 60th Street, NYC and things related to the Supremes appearances there. Things have veered so far from there I don't think some folks have realized the topic geographically is now in the wrong part of Newark, NJ.

[skooldem1]

This album, and concert are legendary. I don't care if it shows up on a top 100 list or not. This was a very popular album. Whether or not this has always been in print means absolutely nothing. It is being re-released over 40 years later- as a deluxe edition. What does that tell you? This was not a concert on the chitlin circuit or the Apollo. It was geared to a specific target audience. It is what it is. I like it because it's a slice of entertainment history. Knowing that, I wont criticize it 40 years later for what I felt it was lacking. IMO, this is just another milestone, accomplishment the Supremes had that many are trying to minimalize.

[marv2]

Well I for one would love to know how David Ruffin liked his Steak Cooked, Betty Kelly's favorite color of finger nail polish, or how much Aqua Net Hair Spray it took to hold Brenda Holloway's hair together but until someone starts those "trivial" threads we'll never know. ;)

The complains its all Diana Ross and or the Supremes topics around here all the time are tired because its so easy to fix by starting a new topic about a different act. I look forward to seeing what the members of this forum come up with.

Now can we head back to the actual Copa at East 60th Street, NYC and things related to the Supremes appearances there. Things have veered so far from there I don't think some folks have realized the topic geographically is now in the wrong part of Newark, NJ.

Can someone explain what this guy is talking about?

[Glenpwood]

Marv, read your post then mine below and it makes sense. It's not designed to pick on you or any individual of this board, it just covers what been said in the topic about DRATS getting trivial topics compared to other acts and the fact that the topic is way off course.....

[jobeterob]

The album was a huge hit for a live album.......which of course is why it's getting the deluxe treatment; that and because Diana still has a significant following.

We know that Marv will get anxious and have Dianarheaa whenever another milestone or big event happens; it's always fun to watch. So that's when all of this will go tremendously off topic.

And then of course, Baby It's Me will follow and there will be more tour dates. I wonder if there are any more Awards she can get??

[Roberta75]

The album was a huge hit for a live album.......which of course is why it's getting the deluxe treatment; that and because Diana still has a significant following.

We know that Marv will get anxious and have Dianarheaa whenever another milestone or big event happens; it's always fun to watch. So that's will all of this will go tremendously off topic.

And then of course, Baby It's Me will follow and there will be more tour dates. I wonder if there are any more Awards she can get??

Dianarheaa. LOLOLOLOL

[marv2]

The album was a huge hit for a live album.......which of course is why it's getting the deluxe treatment; that and because Diana still has a significant following.

We know that Marv will get anxious and have Dianarheaa whenever another milestone or big event happens; it's always fun to watch. So that's will all of this will go tremendously off topic.

And then of course, Baby It's Me will follow and there will be more tour dates. I wonder if there are any more Awards she can get??

I am serious. What in the hell are you talking about? This album in 2012 is not much more than a nice novelty. It is not, nor was it ever ground breaking. Mary will get royalties and that's always good to know,but other than that it does not change anything for me personally.

[marv2]

Dianarheaa. LOLOLOLOL

It's not quite as funny as dressing up, going on national television and farting on the Grammy's! LOL !!!!

[smark21]

No, I just know that as a young black man growing up during those times who's parents, neighbors and others were involved in the black power/pride movement that what you said would have created a huge argument. In fact, it would have created a fight. This talk about the BLACK Supremes resisting stereotypes, that the BLACK power movement was reinforcing. WTF does that mean? What stereotypes were the Supremes trying to avoid? Their families were involved in the black power movement. Hell Mary Wilson's brother Roosevelt was a Black Panther! I stick by my earlier comment.....You do not what hell you are talking about in this instance. What you said was EXTREMELY offensive, but you do not realize that because you do not know what you talking at this moment!

Marv

Not often it happens, but I agree with Marv. I think Motown went too far to try to make The Supremes palatable to a primarily adult white nightclub audience with that Copa act. Fortunately it got better over the years. But all those songs about "Put on a Happy Face" and "Make Someone Happy" and "Enjoy YOurself" seem to communicate a message that these ladies won't make you feel uncomfortable like a civil rights marcher. True, Somewhere is a song about a future that may provide Universal Acceptance and parts of the Sam Cooke medley have some bite, but overall, there is nothing at all daring about this show. Not to say I'm advocating that the Supremes should have come on stage and opened with a new song called "Up Against the wall you white racist motherfuckers", but between all the happy songs, the Vegas/showtune arrangments of their hits and vaudeville schmalz like Rock a Bye Your Baby with a Dixie Melody, there's a reason why Live at the Copa is not considered a landmark live album of the 60's. Yes it sold well in its time, but it's not an album for the ages, though it is an interesting socio-cultural historical artifact documenting a culture and show business establishment that is no more. For that reason, I might actually buy the reissue as such matters arouse my intellectual curiosity, lol!.

[smark21]

Marv, read your post then mine below and it makes sense. It's not designed to pick on you or any individual of this board, it just covers what been said in the topic about DRATS getting trivial topics compared to other acts and the fact that the topic is way off course.....

This thread is actually one of the more substantive Supremes related threads at this site. We've discussed history, race, the conventions of show business and concerts between 1965 and now.

[jobeterob]

That's excellent Smark. Very well reasoned and I totally agree.

I guess I'm agreeing with Marv too. And everyone agreed on the Limbaugh debacle. Jeez, soon it'll be some kind of "bed in".

Taking Smarks reasoning a little bit further, and down the road a few years, both Diana Ross and Whitney Houston were so successful at ALL the markets for a while that they got a little big headed and they got too popular and then, as always, the public tired and moved on. With Whitney, it was "Ooooh, I'm bigger than the Beatles" and with Diana, it was the chronic flip the hair back, lead all the finales and call me Miss Ross.

[nomis]

you can only be the princess for so long..you grow old..Diana had the 60s and early 70s and then came along Whitney..she took the spot and then,as history repeats Beyonce came along and took the title...I hope Jay Z is a better man than Bobby..Summer,Flack,Watley and the rest just didnt capture mass adulation the way Ross,Houston then Knowles did

[jobeterob]

That's how I see it too Nomis.

[Kamasu_Jr]

I hope the expanded Copa booklet will include some other photos from the group's run other than those dowdy blue, flower and feather oddities that looked homemade. I found one [[a picture) recently that appears to have been taken at the Copa.

[LadySingsBlues]

It's not quite as funny as dressing up, going on national television and farting on the Grammy's! LOL !!!!

That would be funny....if that actually had happened.

[jobeterob]

Hmmmmmmm! Would Limbaugh have said what Marv just said? Probably.

Would a happy, well adjusted person say either of these things? Probably not, especially when this is about the Supremes at the Copa.

As has been said, what goes around comes around.

Hmmmm, thinking more this early morning.............I guess Mary already sent a message around about that kind of talk. He won't even listen to Mary!

[marv2]

Hmmmmmmm! Would Limbaugh have said what Marv just said? Probably.

Would a happy, well adjusted person say either of these things? Probably not, especially when this is about the Supremes at the Copa.

As has been said, what goes around comes around.

Hmmmm, thinking more this early morning.............I guess Mary already sent a message around about that kind of talk. He won't even listen to Mary!

It's not about what I said, it is what she did! There are somewhere between 40-80 video clips of the evidence on Youtube. I know she is your goddess, but she is human to everyone else. She just had an episode of farting at the wrong moment! LOL!!!! Mrs. Powell would not approve, hehehehehehehe.....

[LadySingsBlues]

not often it happens, but i agree with marv. I think motown went too far to try to make the supremes palatable to a primarily adult white nightclub audience with that copa act. Fortunately it got better over the years. But all those songs about "put on a happy face" and "make someone happy" and "enjoy yourself" seem to communicate a message that these ladies won't make you feel uncomfortable like a civil rights marcher. True, somewhere is a song about a future that may provide universal acceptance and parts of the sam cooke medley have some bite, but overall, there is nothing at all daring about this show. not to say i'm advocating that the supremes should have come on stage and opened with a new song called "up against the wall you white racist motherfuckers", but between all the happy songs, the vegas/showtune arrangments of their hits and vaudeville schmalz like rock a bye your baby with a dixie melody, there's a reason why live at the copa is not considered a landmark live album of the 60's. Yes it sold well in its time, but it's not an album for the ages, though it is an interesting socio-cultural historical artifact documenting a culture and show business establishment that is no more. For that reason, i might actually buy the reissue as such matters arouse my intellectual curiosity, lol!.


laugh out loud. :d

[Glenpwood]

. Not to say I'm advocating that the Supremes should have come on stage and opened with a new song called "Up Against the wall you white racist motherfuckers".


Now Now... This is the classy Supremes, it would've been "Up The Ladder to The Roof You White Racist Mo-Fo's"

Mary's background "Up The's" would've been EPIC!!! LOL

[BobC]

This is my last post on this forum--I am fed up with the white bashing. I am damn proud of my people and when I read how "racist America was in the 60's" and how hard it was for black artists to get seen and heard it makes me want to destroy every single black record I ever purchased.

To the racists on this forum with very selective memory, let's start with the 5o's. From the Greatest 100 Rock and Roll artists of the 50's, we have the following:
2. Fats Domino [[second only to Elvis)
3. Chuck Berry
4. Little Richard
7. Ray Charles
9. Clovers
10. Platters
11. The Dominoes
12. Ruth Brown
13. Bo Diddley
15. Sam Cooke
16. Hank Ballard and the Midnighters
19, Big Joe Turner
20. The Drifters

So 13 of the top 20 artists of the 50's were BLACK. And yet apparently that isn't enough because we evil white people just wouldn't buy black records.

60's: Once again, look at how OVER_Represented blacks were, not under:

2. James Brown [[second only to Beatles)
4. Supremes
7. Aretha
9. Sam Cooke
10. Jimi Hendryx
11. Ray Charles
12. Otis Redding
13. Temptations
14. Miracles
16. Marvin Gaye
19. Wiilson Picket
20. Stevie Wonder

Oh look! AGAIN, 13 of the top 20 are BLACK. AGAIN. But yeah--all the doors were closed by us evil white people.

70's:
1. Stevie Wonder [[OOPS--hate to tell you all but a black artist is the biggest of the 70's!!!!!)
7. Marvin Gaye
9. James Brown
12. Aretha
15. PFunk
16. Isley Brothers

Of course, since I was around in the 70's, I know that this was when BLACKS really started SELF-SEGREGATING with their own black radio stations, Soul Train, etc. But yeah that's evil white people's fault too.

In the 90's-2000's the top 10 was DOMINATED by rap and hip hop.

Oh an let's not forget the 80's, where records by Janet Jackson, Michael Jackson, Jam and Lewis, Nile Rodgers, ect JUST NEVER GOT PLAYED!!

Stop perpetuating this blatant, self-pitying lie that Motown was "opening doors" during the "racist 60's" because those doors were already wide open before most of those artists were born. Before I was born. Considering blacks were between 6%-8% of the population in those decades, maybe you can get it through your thick racist skulls, and condescending, 60's white liberal skulls who are still stuck mentally in that decade, that WHITES HAVE BEEN SUPPORTING BACK ARTISTS SINCE POPULAR MUSIC BEGAN.

Anything, ANYTHING to demonize white people. And white liberals are the WORST in this department. Goodbye forever--have fun dwelling in your self pity and victim status.

[smark21]

Seriously Bob C? You want to destroy all your "black records" because people at this forum discuss the fact that African Americans suffered from racism in the 1960's? Really? YOu sure got a lot of issues going on. Too many for me to tackle, but I'll address a couple and hopefully others will chime in as well, even if you don't come back here ever again because you feel "your people" are under attack.

For starters, except for the most virulent white racists, most white people who have bigoted feelings about African Americans don't mind Blacks when they sing, dance, entertain or play ball. They can enjoy the music and even buy the songs, watch them on TV or even attend a concert, but still harbor racist feelings that Black people are inferior or are not deserving of equal rights or social justice. Perfect example of this mentality: In Mary Wilson's first book she talks about a white woman who came up to her in the 60's and told her that she usually doesn't permit her children to watch Negroes on TV, but she makes an exception for the Supremes because "they're different". Or in the 80's , The Cosby Show was the highest rated show on TV, yet a number of its viewers turned around and voted for Ronald Reagan, or in North Carolina, voted for Jesse Helms.

I'll let others discuss racism in the 60's in more depth as I was an infant back then. But it existed all over. Segregation was still in place in many parts of the country in the early 60's and even up to the end of the decade. Though whites bought the records, that didn't mean the artists had the same sort of quality accomadations that a white star would have. You also talk about self segregation in the 70's. You don't seem to understand the purpose of the Civil Rights movement. Blacks weren't fighting for Civil Rights because they loved white people and wanted to be with them. No, they were fighting for the right to be treated fairly and equally and with respect under the law. To have the right to vote and use any facility they wanted to patronized without being barred or sent to the back door.

And perhaps our times are not as racist as they once were, but anti Black racism still exists in this country. Just the other day down in Flordia a Black teenager was shot and killed by a neighborhood watch leader in a gated community in Florida. The teenager lived in the community with his father and step mother. He just went out to buy some Skittles and Long Island Ice tea and was on his way back home. But all the Neigborhood Watch leader saw was a Black teenager, a criminal in his mind. He shot him and killed him. And the police let him go. Now the father is demanding justice. Why don't you fly down to Florida and tell the father there's no such thing as racism in the United States? Go on, I dare you. If you don't believe this story, here's the link: http://m.yahoo.com/w/news_america/family-florida-boy-killed-neighborhood-watch-seeks-arrest-044537742.html?orig_host_hdr=news.yahoo.com&.intl=us&.lang=en-us

Your outburst is a culmination of your posts here lately. You harbor a lot of racial resentment. I wonder why? Perhaps you have guilt over what's bottled up inside you and rather than confronting your feelings you decide to deny them and blame others for fantasizing about being victims of racism? I don't really know. But you're a sick puppy and you need to get some help. The sooner the better.

[marv2]

Seriously Bob C? You want to destroy all your "black records" because people at this forum discuss the fact that African Americans suffered from racism in the 1960's? Really? YOu sure got a lot of issues going on. Too many for me to tackle, but I'll address a couple and hopefully others will chime in as well, even if you don't come back here ever again because you feel "your people" are under attack.

For starters, except for the most virulent white racists, most white people who have bigoted feelings about African Americans don't mind Blacks when they sing, dance, entertain or play ball. They can enjoy the music and even buy the songs, watch them on TV or even attend a concert, but still harbor racist feelings that Black people are inferior or are not deserving of equal rights or social justice. Perfect example of this mentality: In Mary Wilson's first book she talks about a white woman who came up to her in the 60's and told her that she usually doesn't permit her children to watch Negroes on TV, but she makes an exception for the Supremes because "they're different". Or in the 80's , The Cosby Show was the highest rated show on TV, yet a number of its viewers turned around and voted for Ronald Reagan, or in North Carolina, voted for Jesse Helms.

I'll let others discuss racism in the 60's in more depth as I was an infant back then. But it existed all over. Segregation was still in place in many parts of the country in the early 60's and even up to the end of the decade. Though whites bought the records, that didn't mean the artists had the same sort of quality accomadations that a white star would have. You also talk about self segregation in the 70's. You don't seem to understand the purpose of the Civil Rights movement. Blacks weren't fighting for Civil Rights because they loved white people and wanted to be with them. No, they were fighting for the right to be treated fairly and equally and with respect under the law. To have the right to vote and use any facility they wanted to patronized without being barred or sent to the back door.

And perhaps our times are not as racist as they once were, but anti Black racism still exists in this country. Just the other day down in Flordia a Black teenager was shot and killed by a neighborhood watch leader in a gated community in Florida. The teenager lived in the community with his father and step mother. He just went out to buy some Skittles and Long Island Ice tea and was on his way back home. But all the Neigborhood Watch leader saw was a Black teenager, a criminal in his mind. He shot him and killed him. And the police let him go. Now the father is demanding justice. Why don't you fly down to Florida and tell the father there's no such thing as racism in the United States? Go on, I dare you. If you don't believe this story, here's the link: http://m.yahoo.com/w/news_america/family-florida-boy-killed-neighborhood-watch-seeks-arrest-044537742.html?orig_host_hdr=news.yahoo.com&.intl=us&.lang=en-us

Your outburst is a culmination of your posts here lately. You harbor a lot of racial resentment. I wonder why? Perhaps you have guilt over what's bottled up inside you and rather than confronting your feelings you decide to deny them and blame others for fantasizing about being victims of racism? I don't really know. But you're a sick puppy and you need to get some help. The sooner the better.

Oh ummm..... I don't think many people are going to chime in here, because you pretty much said it all! Elegant Soul, where are you? LOL!!!! A WOW!

[Constantin]

This is my last post on this forum--I am fed up with the white bashing. [...]
Stop perpetuating this blatant, self-pitying lie that Motown was "opening doors" during the "racist 60's" because those doors were already wide open before most of those artists were born. Before I was born. Considering blacks were between 6%-8% of the population in those decades, maybe you can get it through your thick racist skulls, and condescending, 60's white liberal skulls who are still stuck mentally in that decade, that WHITES HAVE BEEN SUPPORTING BACK ARTISTS SINCE POPULAR MUSIC BEGAN.

Anything, ANYTHING to demonize white people. And white liberals are the WORST in this department. Goodbye forever--have fun dwelling in your self pity and victim status.

You are absolutely right.

[Jimi LaLumia]

actually, absolutely WHITE!!!...lol

[jobeterob]

I'm surprised by the later discussion here............but, I think it demonstrates what the Copa was all about as well as the problems that still pervade areas of the USA today.

Imagine Diana Ross..........going from the projects, not being able to use certain washrooms down south, getting shot at in Mississippi to Buckingham Palace, the White House, Radio City Music Hall and the Academy Awards by the time she was 30.

[marv2]

I'm surprised by the later discussion here............but, I think it demonstrates what the Copa was all about as well as the problems that still pervade areas of the USA today.

Imagine Diana Ross..........going from the projects, not being able to use certain washrooms down south, getting shot at in Mississippi to Buckingham Palace, the White House, Radio City Music Hall and the Academy Awards by the time she was 30.

Wasn't just Diana Ross! It was all of them and many other African Americans. She was just one person of many that have done better. She is not the example.

[thisoldheart]

to think that racism and homophobia for that matter don't exist today is ... well, i can't find the words! as far as this board is concerned, this white gay man has found most of its members more tolerant than the the american population, thank god! this thread was rolling along at such an interesting pace before it turned into a train wreck!

[LadySingsBlues]

Wasn't just Diana Ross! It was all of them and many other African Americans. She was just one person of many that have done better. She is not the example.

We know Marv, we know.

[marv2]

We know Marv, we know.

That's good. Now would tell Jobeterob. He thinks she is important to all things.

[Roberta75]

You are absolutely right.

OMG......................are you serious? Bobc has an issue with "white bashing" which is nonexistant on this forum and you agree with him.

Shame on you.

Roberta

[144man]

This is my last post on this forum--I am fed up with the white bashing. I am damn proud of my people and when I read how "racist America was in the 60's" and how hard it was for black artists to get seen and heard it makes me want to destroy every single black record I ever purchased.

Of course, since I was around in the 70's, I know that this was when BLACKS really started SELF-SEGREGATING with their own black radio stations, Soul Train, etc. But yeah that's evil white people's fault too.

In the 90's-2000's the top 10 was DOMINATED by rap and hip hop.

Oh an let's not forget the 80's, where records by Janet Jackson, Michael Jackson, Jam and Lewis, Nile Rodgers, ect JUST NEVER GOT PLAYED!!

Stop perpetuating this blatant, self-pitying lie that Motown was "opening doors" during the "racist 60's" because those doors were already wide open before most of those artists were born. Before I was born. Considering blacks were between 6%-8% of the population in those decades, maybe you can get it through your thick racist skulls, and condescending, 60's white liberal skulls who are still stuck mentally in that decade, that WHITES HAVE BEEN SUPPORTING BACK ARTISTS SINCE POPULAR MUSIC BEGAN.

Anything, ANYTHING to demonize white people. And white liberals are the WORST in this department. Goodbye forever--have fun dwelling in your self pity and victim status.

Unbelievable.

Smark21's response pretty much nails it.

[bankhousedave]

Thank god where I live we don't have any whites or liberals. We just have people. Some of them are screwy and a lot of them are mistaken - a few of them even believe you can generalise and classify people, but most of these are psychologists and don't count. I think we were just visited by an alien, but don't worry, the government will hush it up and he'll get fired when he gets back to planetoid seven.

[luke]

Well said Smark.

[nomis]

lasr time i got into this topic someone here called me a racist and I stayed away for a year..the only thing im gonna add at this point is when i worked for EMI I rescued a Ross dictaphone recording on a EPK from a bin..on it she talks about violence in Hip Hop..she sounds very old and weary..theres real pain when she talks about Violence the words come out with a deep sadness of someone who was witness to an ugly,painful part of history..

[franjoy56]

This is what discussing the Supremes at the Copa turned into a trainwreck, when it should have been a coup for a black act performing for in a club where blacks ususally didn't perform in because of yes racism, [[except for the Johnny Mathis's and Sam Cooke's and Sammy Davis' and Lena Horne's [[not sure if she played the Copa) but those three epitimized the acceptance of whites, but it was time for black artists to break out and playing a place like the copa was the place for the supremes to break out in and thankully they did do their crossover, because no pun intended white artists havae been covering black artist for years Pat Boone for Little Richard and Fat Domino. So what was wrong with the Supremes covering m.o.r. songs because white america felt black artists weren't acceptable, how we beg to differ. and yes the Sam cooke medley was one of the best sets they did outside their hits queen of the house & make someone, happy and Somewhere, I agree some of the show tunes should have sapped in favor of their own material. but since this was Berry's money promoting this show you couldn't tell him anything else but crossover.

[jobeterob]

Good post Fran.

This still won't be one of my favorite Deluxe Editions. I'll buy it and look forward to Baby It's Me.

[franjoy56]

I am looking forward to "Baby Its Me" as well I love that album her Central Park Concert is playing right now, she is given alot of credit for that show and very brave on night #1 too bad the fans let her down on night #2 a friend called me tonight and said he was there and got out of that park like lightening because people were getting mugged. [[mugged.@ae)

[marv2]

I am looking forward to "Baby Its Me" as well I love that album her Central Park Concert is playing right now, she is given alot of credit for that show and very brave on night #1 too bad the fans let her down on night #2 a friend called me tonight and said he was there and got out of that park like lightening because people were getting mugged. [[mugged.@ae)

Fran I remember those stories of the muggings and major damage done to the park. Also, didn't Mayor Koch have to go public to get Ross to cough up the money for that children's playground?

[motown4ever]

Fran I remember those stories of the muggings and major damage done to the park. Also, didn't Mayor Koch have to go public to get Ross to cough up the money for that children's playground?

I think you're right Marv. It was around the time Diane gave Mary one of those loans for her mortgage or back taxes.

[captainjames]

Does anyone know if The Supremes were the first African American group to appear there ? I am assuming they were but for some reason I thought a non-Motown male group performed there as well. This was BIG and very important step for Motown to get the girls on this gig.

[milven]

Sammy Davis Jr., Harry Belefonte and Sam Cooke performed there before the Supremes. That's why I wonder why it considered so groundbreaking that the Supremes were booked there when other black acts preceeded them.

[captainjames]

Were they the first African American Females ?

[jillfoster]

I have to say I never did like the Copa album. A female group in popular music in the 60's, I expected a pop music show, with some HIPNESS, and groovy music. Instead we got a vegasy, schmaltzy type of show that would be more suited to Perry freaking COMO! Most of the Supremes live shows were like this, and this is why I feel that they never got the critical acclaim that would be commensurate with their chart success. It's like their hit records misrepresented who they were when you went to see them live.

[Constantin]

I have to say I never did like the Copa album. A female group in popular music in the 60's, I expected a pop music show, with some HIPNESS, and groovy music. Instead we got a vegasy, schmaltzy type of show that would be more suited to Perry freaking COMO! Most of the Supremes live shows were like this, and this is why I feel that they never got the critical acclaim that would be commensurate with their chart success. It's like their hit records misrepresented who they were when you went to see them live.

True. The explanation could be that the model Berry Gordy has in mind for Diana Ross was Doris Day. Gordy loved Day: one of his first songs was intended to her [["You are you" finally sung by Shanice on A Tribute to Berry Gordy - The Music, the Magic, the Memories of Motown). I never really understood why surely because where I lived Day was not the major star she was in the US.*

[jillfoster]

Now Now... This is the classy Supremes, it would've been "Up The Ladder to The Roof You White Racist Mo-Fo's"

Mary's background "Up The's" would've been EPIC!!! LOL

Yep!!! I can hear those backgrounds now... "Up yours!"

[Jimi LaLumia]

Doris Day was the role model because all America knew her;
she had hit records, became a star on tv, and starred in films;
and SO DID Diana Ross..

[smark21]

I just did some googling. Lena Horne was the first African American woman to play the Copa in 1948. The Will Mastin Trio [[the group that launched Sammy Davis, Jr.) played the Copa in the 50's. So The Supremes were not the first African American women or the first African American group to play the Copa. They were the first African American female group on a black owned label to play the club though.

BTW, thanks to those who liked my reply to BobC. I do hope others chime in with their perspectives on his rant though.

[ralpht]

Thank you for the definitive answer to the question, Smark.

[kenneth]

BTW, thanks to those who liked my reply to BobC. I do hope others chime in with their perspectives on his rant though.

Very surprising...to say the least. And anyway, if we're talking about breakthroughs in the 60s for black artists, well that's when Motown had its biggest impact. In those days, reaction [[and by inference, imitation) was at least or even quicker than it is now, so many companies were quick to jump on the R&B band wagon.

Also, few of those in command [[label owners, sports franchises, entertainment moguls) were black then...or even now! As progressive as they were, there's a difference between Motown and Atlantic [[not to mention Columbia Records) in the 60s. Real progress was made when many of these artists became self-produced [[Wonder, Gaye, Ross, etc.) or more in control of their careers.

[milven]

What we may be forgetting is that the Supremes were not performing a concert. They were performing a night club act in a smoke filled room, with people eating, drinking and talking. The show that they put on was for that audience, not for a concert audience. Sam Cook was the epitome of soul singers of his time and he also sang standards such as Bill Bailey, When I Fall In Love and Tennessee Waltz in his Copa act. It may sound corny now, but it was entertaining in its time and in front of a night club audience. As a recording, it serves as a history of what used to be.

[robbert]

Wasn't just Diana Ross! It was all of them and many other African Americans. She was just one person of many that have done better. She is not the example.Marv, please! Jobeterob just used her as an example. It says "Imagine Diana Ross..." You better read carefully before you trhust yourself into another blast.

[Jimi LaLumia]

Very surprising...to say the least. And anyway, if we're talking about breakthroughs in the 60s for black artists, well that's when Motown had its biggest impact. In those days, reaction [[and by inference, imitation) was at least or even quicker than it is now, so many companies were quick to jump on the R&B band wagon.

Also, few of those in command [[label owners, sports franchises, entertainment moguls) were black then...or even now! As progressive as they were, there's a difference between Motown and Atlantic [[not to mention Columbia Records) in the 60s. Real progress was made when many of these artists became self-produced [[Wonder, Gaye, Ross, etc.) or more in control of their careers.
EXACTLY!....the know nothings chiming in are either people that were born in 1985, or the small tribe of Ross-o-phobes!

[robbert]

I just did some googling. Lena Horne was the first African American woman to play the Copa in 1948.And that's a fact, there you go. But wasn't Lena Horn considered as the "beige Doris Day?" Which might have made her more acceptable to white audiences? Just thinking out loud...

[robbert]

What we may be forgetting is that the Supremes were not performing a concert. They were performing a night club act in a smoke filled room, with people eating, drinking and talking. The show that they put on was for that audience, not for a concert audience. Sam Cook was the epitome of soul singers of his time and he also sang standards such as Bill Bailey, When I Fall In Love and Tennessee Waltz in his Copa act. It may sound corny now, but it was entertaining in its time and in front of a night club audience. As a recording, it serves as a history of what used to be.
Indeed. I always pitied that The Supremes never got to play stadiums or venues alike, with full versions of their hits plus some other material from their vast album repertoire. Like the stars in Monterey and Woodstock... where were the girls on big venues and festivals in their prime years [[1964-1967)? Or weren't those mass gigs yet invented? On big venues they always performed their MOR repertoire and the rush-rush medley of hits, didn't they? In fact, in all those years [[1964-1969) they only had two shows on the road, the Copa 1965 and the Talk of the Town 1968 show.
Don't shoot me, I'm only the piano player... from the far east Europe!

[Jimi LaLumia]

the girls do their thing on "THE T.A.M.I. SHOW" right alongside James Brown and The Rolling Stones, and they did just fine;
then Berry Gordy got other ideas for the girls

[robbert]

Yes Jimi, the days when the performers in tv studios kept staring at the hanging monitors while performing instead of playing the cameras... hahaha

[stephanie]

At first I thought this was some kind of joke. Poor Bob C. Out of all the things I have seen on this forum I have never felt or seen anyone who thought there was white bashing going on. Im sorry Bob if you see this I hope you were not offended but I found it to be so funny on a Supremes at the Copa thread....LOL Please forgive me. I am not white so maybe I dont understand the sensitivity here but please I hope you feel no need to burn your records. I wouldnt burn my Monkees, Doors, or Rolling Stones records if there was black bashing. Seriously think it over you are always welcome here.

[Constantin]

Real progress was made when many of these artists became self-produced [[Wonder, Gaye, Ross, etc.) or more in control of their careers.

In the case of Ross, it was surely better for her bank account and her financial independence but from an artistic perspective I am not sure her self-produced albums will stand the test of time like the others.

[marv2]

You are absolutely right.
He [[BobC) is not absolutely right. Why do you say that?