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drlorne
09-03-2010, 09:41 PM
I just got Dionne Warwick's Friends in Love and like it a lot, but the electric piano [[or whatever it is) that is so prominent throughout the CD, really dates the music. It's too bad because the songs are very good but the instruments date it. I was listening to the Supremes [[next CD in my car) and there aren't obvious "favourite instruments" in the majority of their songs and that gives there music a more timeless quality --- other than being "girl group and motown sound".

Lorne

nomis
09-03-2010, 09:55 PM
I know what you mean Lorne - Using cheap instruments can ruin otherwise good sessions - Gloria Gaynor recorded a string of 80s songs - theres some decent vocals but the studio production lets them down- I remember many on this forum feeling that way about Ian levines tracks for Motown artists - I felt the same way about Dianas "I Love You " cd - most of the studio arrangments sounded cheap but as you mentioned Dionne I guess its hard to beat some of her timeless sublime tracks -De Ja Vu comes to mind its such a lush,wonderful piece of music it would be hard for a producer to beat something like that and its true for Diana shes done some exellent work in my view post Motown but it aint no easy task to beat Nick and Val or Masser....

daddyacey
09-04-2010, 01:45 AM
What you both are talking about is the difference between "Real" anolog instruments and Electric instruments. It started with the advent of the electric guitar ,then the electric bass. Technology is a major factor in the development of Soul/R&B music. The electric guitar brought a brilliance to the Blues ,Jazz and Pop music ,followed by the electric bass ,which was followed by the electric piano. The guitar and piano are the main tools used to create and write musical compositions. When you change the sound of the basic tools used to create the music ,you change the finished product. The electric bass accented the "bottom" ,and balanced the sound of the electric guitar. Just one example of this is when Jamerson switched over to electric. It changed the way he played and changed the way that writers and producers created the music. The Fender Rhodes changed the sound of music also ,after the MOOG and up until the Arp was developed. The music is dated as the technology of the instruments develop. Between the late 50's and mid 60's ,the "rythum section" ,was converted to electric in all but Jazz, which was a purist form. Folk's had a shix fit when EDDIE HARRIS and ROLAND KIRK switched to electric sax and MILE'S electricfied the trumpet. Add in some more technology [[multi track) ,and cost factors and you have what is the sound of the late 70's and 80's. To the trained ear ,an Arp ensamble ,Fender Rhodes ,Sampled Drums etc will sound just like what they are, facsimilies of the real instruments. They have thier own time and space. In a way ,the timely sound of some recordings is what makes them unique. I'm just glad I have the ear to distinguish the difference between the changes.

jillfoster
09-04-2010, 02:03 AM
I disagree about the Supremes songs having a timeless quality, thye sound dated like everything else. But that's what I LIKE. I wish everything sounded dated. There are four instruments found in late 60's/70's music in varying degrees that is basically absent from music of the last 25 years.... Tambourine, Harpsichord, Vibraphone, Organ. The Supremes records, especially relied on that Vibraphone alot in the early hits, "Stop!" and "Back In My Arms Again" use the heck out of that vibraphone.... and when Frank Wilson took over, the fuzz pedal on the lead guitar made a huge statement. "Dated" has a negative connotation, I prefer to use the term "Period". Electric piano can be used effectively... it depends if your'e talking about electric piano, or synth. Bad synth is the scourge of the music industry, IMO.

nomis
09-04-2010, 02:29 AM
Yes Jill bad synth is plain nasty...

jsmith
09-04-2010, 02:30 AM
Certain instruments do date tracks ... but for me .... in a good way.
I love tracks that feature a hammond B3 organ and / or vibes. Then in the early 70's, bongos became prominent on tracks, usually adding to the overall feel.
I certainly hate the 'fake' / cheap organ [[a bontempi type) sound that has been on many indie label tracks [[especially southern soul) cuts over the last 15 or so years. The 'Ian Levine' touch on all those Motor City tracks becomes annoying very quickly as well.

soulster
09-04-2010, 02:35 AM
What's that keyboard they used on the intro of the Jackson 5's "I'll Be There" and the Partridge Family's "I Think I Love You"? Dated, maybe, but I love that sound!

mhc
09-04-2010, 09:26 AM
It's a harpsichord. There's one also on "Love Is Here and Now You're Gone"..

jillfoster
09-04-2010, 11:27 AM
It's a harpsichord. There's one also on "Love Is Here and Now You're Gone".. Absolutely, that fabulous harpsichord I was speaking of in my earlier post. also used on "I Can't Make It Alone" from Reflections, and Martha's "[[Wev'e Got) Honey Love". Macarthur Park also has a large passage featuring it. It's basically a piano where the strings are plucked instead of struck by a hammer covered in felt.

smark21
09-04-2010, 12:55 PM
One instrumentation that has not stood the test of time and sounds dated, rather than classic like vintage 60's Motown, is the drum machine sound in many of the R & B/New Jack Swing records of the late 80's.

mhc
09-04-2010, 07:05 PM
Here's some pretty nice work on the harpsichord right here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8934A11ZSY&feature=related

uptight
09-05-2010, 01:44 AM
Ah, the harpsichord... It boggles the mind why they featured it in popular music so often. I'm guessing it's because it gave the music a "upper-class" or European feel. Uh, I dunno... LOL. It kind of gave me a weird feeling because the harpsichord sounded out of place in American pop/R&B music. It took some getting used to.

I kind of understand the use of it in The Four Tops' Reach Out album, for example, because Brian Epstein was promoting them in the UK. But is it me, or does this instrument sound out of key on those records? Does the harpsichord go out of tune easier than a piano?

splanky
09-05-2010, 08:45 AM
It depends on how the instrument is used in the music and the genre's aesthetics. I happen to like the use of harpsichord on
various soul and r&b recordings. There are very few instruments that I think date any music though I don't think some fit well into
other genres. Clavinets don't sound good in anything other than funk or jazz fusion. I can't recall ever hearing a clarinet in funk, though I've heard Don Byron who is primarily a clarinetist play funk on a tenor sax. Bela Fleck plays this age and some whole other sh*t on what is one of the oldest instruments in this country, a bango and Alice Coltrane could scare the mess
outta you with a harp!....

jillfoster
09-05-2010, 10:22 AM
I don't know about straight ahead SOUL and Harpsichord, perhaps it fits better with pop and stuff that leans toward psychadelic. I got a question for y'all... I'm usually fairly knowledgeable when it comes to musical instruments, but what are they using on Martha's "Something" from Natural Resources? You know what I mean... it plays the melody line in the into, and featured heavily in the whole song. It knocks me out.

splanky
09-05-2010, 10:42 AM
jill, it's happened dozens of times already. There's almost no instrument that can't be
used in soul music, or even it's latin offspring...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRk_RFfXtfs

I've listened to Something and I can't figure out what instrument you're talking about...

jillfoster
09-05-2010, 04:00 PM
jill, it's happened dozens of times already. There's almost no instrument that can't be
used in soul music, or even it's latin offspring...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRk_RFfXtfs

I've listened to Something and I can't figure out what instrument you're talking about...

Splanky, just listen to what plays the melody in the song's introduction, it's right there in the first five seconds. I don't know if it's some kind of synthesizer, or some type of guitar or what.

robb_k
09-05-2010, 04:38 PM
1113
The new sound of the mid-late '70s, '80s, '90s and 2,000 is precisely what I DON'T like. I like acoustic instrumentation, very much, but also like the early electric sound of the '50s and '60s. But don't like the instrumentation after 1971-72 or so. To me, "dated" sound means quality and clarity. Modern sound means "messy", unclear, noisy. I guess everyone is entitled to have his or her own taste.

westgrandboulevard
09-05-2010, 05:54 PM
I know what Jill means, and had always assumed it to be an electric guitar but, now that Jill mentions it, perhaps there's an attempt to achieve a 'sitar' sound to it??

That said, I was absolutely certain that an harmonica was being played on Marvelettes "Hunter..."..so what do I know...

uptight
09-05-2010, 06:37 PM
Jill, it's an electric guitar with a tape delayed echo, similar to The Four Tops' "Still Water [[Love)" intro. Likely it's the same guitar player -- same time period.

robb_k
09-05-2010, 06:51 PM
I know what Jill means, and had always assumed it to be an electric guitar but, now that Jill mentions it, perhaps there's an attempt to achieve a 'sitar' sound to it??

That said, I was absolutely certain that an harmonica was being played on Marvelettes "Hunter..."..so what do I know...
1116
You mean that was NOT a harmonica??? It was a synthesizer? That's a shock!

jillfoster
09-05-2010, 08:43 PM
Jill, it's an electric guitar with a tape delayed echo, similar to The Four Tops' "Still Water [[Love)" intro. Likely it's the same guitar player -- same time period.

Thanks... that makes sense to me. Tape delayed echo.... freaking LOVE IT! Many different electric guitars have different sounds to them, that one on "Something" has such a "sparkle" to it... for lack of a better word. I bet some effect was used on the insturment, too... besides the tape delay.

westgrandboulevard
09-06-2010, 06:48 AM
Jil...."sparkle" is certainly a good descriptive word for the resonance of that instrument....which was what made Motown so inventive, distinctive, and so great. And I would agree with uptight, it is similar to the one used on "Still Water"...and I'm also thinking of the guitar on Marvin Gaye's version of 'Yesterday'....

Robb...now I might need some help here, as I could be wrong, but I'm sure I read somewhere on a forum [[maybe this one..?) that the harmonica sound on "Hunter" was actually created by the use of a keyboard..and yes, I was somewhat taken aback, too!

jillfoster
09-06-2010, 11:02 AM
Then of course, there has been that age old controversy of the instrument used on the single version of "Love Is Like An Itching In My Heart". Many many people say it's a kazoo, i'm of the opinion that it's an electric violin.

westgrandboulevard
09-07-2010, 06:54 AM
Jill

Presumably you mean the US single version? I can't immediately locate a copy, but I don't think it featured on the single version here in the UK.

uptight
09-07-2010, 07:40 AM
"Hunter" features an electric wind instrument that was like an tiny organ with air that blew through it. I don't know the name of this keyboard instrument, but it was on display at the Motown exhibit at Henry Ford Museum in the mid 1990s. In the Marvelettes' record, it had more of a whiny timbre than a harmonica and no vibrato.

uptight
09-07-2010, 07:43 AM
In "Love Is Like An Itching In My Heart," I believe it could either be saxophone or kazoos or both.

westgrandboulevard
09-07-2010, 08:25 AM
Uptight

Very many thanks for that very interesting information!

Will play both those tracks again very soon, and listen intently....

144man
09-07-2010, 08:26 AM
Imo the records the Temptations recorded during their psychedelic period sound more dated than the material they recorded immediately before.

jillfoster
09-07-2010, 09:43 AM
Well, for comparison..... here is an electric violin, starting at 2:33... and again in the last 30 seconds of the song. "Itching" has it played higher and more in the background... but you can get an idea:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfKK8kwK4V0

And HERE is a kazoo, at 1:29.... I just don't think the instrment on "Itching" sounds like soembody is blowing it, and it doesn't sound as "cheezy" as a real kazoo to me:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Lynq-nUTkc&feature=related

splanky
09-07-2010, 11:32 AM
Jill, I listened to Something again and I think uptight is right about what it is.
Uptight, I think the instrument you're refering to in Hunter is a melodica....

westgrandboulevard
09-07-2010, 12:35 PM
Splanky

Yes!!..I now remember, in that earlier post, the 'harmonica' sound in "Hunter.." being attributed to a melodica....

Thanks for mentioning it.

chidrummer
09-07-2010, 01:04 PM
Splanky, you are correct. The instrument playing the melody at the start of, The Hunter Gets Captured By The Game is called a Melodica. Learn more about it here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melodica

It's the same instrument Billy Preston used in his instrumental solo on, Will It Go Round in Circles. Here's a pic:

1140

robb_k
09-07-2010, 01:13 PM
1142
So, it is an instrument that is closely related to a harmonica. Which is why it sounds so much like one, a air is blown through a chamber, similarly.

chidrummer
09-07-2010, 03:20 PM
On the other hand, jillfoster, to me, the instrument I hear dropping in at the 2:33 mark and on the outro of the M&TP tune sounds like an electric guitar run through a fuzz box with some compression on it. Electric violins usually sound very similar to an acoustic violins only with a more metallic edge to it.

More broadly, I think it's the use of the instrument in question which can make a recording sound dated. Shaft without that Wah Wah pedal, Superstition without that Honer D6 Clavinet, Sweet Sticky Thing without the Arp String Ensemble, Chameleon or Flashlight without the Mini Moog, More Bounce To The Ounce without the Vocoder. All classic songs used with instruments that might have been considered "gimicky" at the time, but wouldn't sound right with them. Shoot, what would the eighties have sounded like without the Yamaha DX7 and the Roland 808?

I think some people just used the instruments badly. They crossed the fine line between timeless and cheesy. All instruments speak to a time and a period. When used well the instrument's sound transcends its time and still resonates decades or even centuries later.

daddyacey
09-08-2010, 03:38 AM
I agree with Chidrummer's point. For example ,"New Jack Swing" style music is based on a certain structure ,using drum machines and synth's of a specific time period. Teddy Riley ,Babyface and Keith Sweat used the same instruments to produce their sound. No horns ,guitar or electric string bass in any New Jack tracks. The New Jack sound IMO evolved from the sound that Kashif and his crew created with the Emulator. Cheaper instruments were created based on the more expensive Emulator and Fairlight systems ,and they became the base for New Jacks Sound.

nomis
09-08-2010, 04:17 AM
but new jack can still have a melody to elevate the track..new editions "If It Isnt Love" springs to mind..the hook is so infectious it overrides the instrumentation...

jillfoster
09-08-2010, 09:53 AM
On the other hand, jillfoster, to me, the instrument I hear dropping in at the 2:33 mark and on the outro of the M&TP tune sounds like an electric guitar run through a fuzz box with some compression on it. Electric violins usually sound very similar to an acoustic violins only with a more metallic edge to it.

More broadly, I think it's the use of the instrument in question which can make a recording sound dated. Shaft without that Wah Wah pedal, Superstition without that Honer D6 Clavinet, Sweet Sticky Thing without the Arp String Ensemble, Chameleon or Flashlight without the Mini Moog, More Bounce To The Ounce without the Vocoder. All classic songs used with instruments that might have been considered "gimicky" at the time, but wouldn't sound right with them. Shoot, what would the eighties have sounded like without the Yamaha DX7 and the Roland 808?

I think some people just used the instruments badly. They crossed the fine line between timeless and cheesy. All instruments speak to a time and a period. When used well the instrument's sound transcends its time and still resonates decades or even centuries later.

I agree that it does sound like a guitar with fuzz and compression, bu the thing is, it's credited as electric violin on the back of the album jacket. I suppose it could be an electric violin with the fuzz pedal and compression you talked about... that might explain it.

Glenpwood
09-08-2010, 10:19 AM
Funny I was just thinking last night before I ever saw this thread how dated some New Jack Swing records sound after I downloaded Alyson Williams "My Love Is So Raw" video from the Itunes store since I hadnt heard that song since it was originally released....

Dionne's Friends In Love album was her best in the 80's. Most all of Arista's product of that period has that same "dated" but then cutting edge keyboard sound. Sit through Paul Davis' "Cool Night" and Melissa Manchester's "Hey Ricky" LP's and they all have the same flourishes/sound....

daddyacey
09-09-2010, 03:12 AM
but new jack can still have a melody to elevate the track..new editions "If It Isnt Love" springs to mind..the hook is so infectious it overrides the instrumentation...

Sho you right about that nomis ,but.......you talking bout Jam and Lewis there. They used digital And old school instruments, in the New jack structure for those tracks. Old school riff's sampled in the New Jack style. A stroke of genius ,and a "polished" New Jack sound was the result. They took New Jack to another level. Them brothers are just shameless Bad Azz Mudders. Their remix of Michael and Janets "Scream" ,using Slys "Thank You" as a sample , is off the chain. Janets, "That's The Way Love Goes" is sampled off of James Browns ,"Papa Don't Take No Mess". An ingenius blend of old school riff ,with New Jack sound and structure.

nomis
09-09-2010, 03:23 AM
Daddyacey - Im a big Jam and lewis fan - I picked up in my local 2nd hand store a couple of years ago a promo only 4 cd jam and lewis anthology its brilliant -their ear for production is outstanding was listening to Rhythm nation the other night..from the minute I heard "Control" lp I was hooked on their beats..now you mention it Daddy I can hear their mix of old and new for their structure..I never thought about it like that..cheers brother

arrr&bee
09-10-2010, 03:09 PM
Hey robb,great minds think alike[hehehe]i couldn't have said it better myself,i listen very closely to instrumentation and today's so-called instruments can't come close to what we grew up on be it motown or a one hit wonder the backing band was very important,now there are many examples of course but if you want an example of this classic band play take a listen to the temptations classic[girl[why you wanna make me blue] now on the surface all you hear are trumpets and drums but listen and you wil hear piano-organ-guitar just a small example of the work that was put in to creating a song,not just turning a fast buck.

daddyacey
09-17-2010, 02:10 AM
arrr&bee ,
The Temps "Girl" is a prime example of everything working together on a song. To me it's one of the most underated Temps tracks. From the start the track is all up in your face. There is an urgency or directness in the vocals , a direct challenge in the lyrics ,[[WHY YOU DOING THIS???). The bass ,piano and hand claps, play the same figures constant and almost without any changes throughout the whole 2:17 of the track ,holding you steady , while the piano ,organ, guitar and horns make minor changes at key parts of the song. The real instrument sound of it, date it somewhat[[IMO) ,as opposed to "pre synth mixed with real instrument", sounding tracks and pure synth sounding tracks, of the later time periods, but it's that same real instrment sound that gives it that timeless, classic quality. Jamersons constant groove and timing on this cut has always amazed me. A true example of the upright "style of playing converted to the electric bass. That bass is walking straight up from the jump, without letting up. It just sounds like a natural straight up, one take track. Classic and timeless.

bankhousedave
09-18-2010, 05:26 PM
The electric violin on the Mamas and Papas weas played by Peter Pilafian if I remember aright, and was a very new resource in them far off days. Interested about the Melodica info. I have savaged such an instrument myself, finding it easier than squeezing an accordian. I seem to recall the audience found it easier too. I wonder if the requisition form survives in the Motown accounts or if sone of the guys simply brought it in that day.

In my view, electric drums, electric string machines [[in the wrong hands) and electric pianos sound more dated than any other instruments. although the Moog and such synthesisers tend to demark an era. Real musicians and real instruments produce timeless music, but I have a hard job explaining the fact that that includes the Hammond B3.

ralpht
09-18-2010, 11:17 PM
Dave, Dave...The B-3 is the instrument of the gods...

bankhousedave
09-19-2010, 03:55 AM
Absolutely, Ralph.

jboy88
09-19-2010, 02:02 PM
I actually love a nice Rhodes or Wurlitzer E Piano, especially if the the song is a ballad. It gives off alot of mellow vibrations that find enjoyable. That's one of the reasons IMO why the music of 70's has held up so well.

robbert
09-19-2010, 03:35 PM
Then of course, there has been that age old controversy of the instrument used on the single version of "Love Is Like An Itching In My Heart". Many many people say it's a kazoo, i'm of the opinion that it's an electric violin.

I have the original Dutch mono pressing of the 45 LILAIIMH, and there is definitely no such sound on that one. A copy master tape for that 45 was ordered directly in Detroit, mentioning the USA mono 45 in the order, which means the USA 45 must be the same.
Only the stereo version [[the first time I heard that one was on the A Go Go album) has the kazoo-like sounds.

robbert
09-19-2010, 03:41 PM
arrr&bee ,
The Temps "Girl" is a prime example of everything working together on a song. To me it's one of the most underated Temps tracks. From the start the track is all up in your face. [...] Classic and timeless.

Phil Collins' arrangers have understood that and his version is as violent as the original!

robbert
09-19-2010, 03:43 PM
Among Dionne's memorable albums comes to [[my) mind: Track Of The Cat, if I remember well it was a Philly sort of production [[Thom Bell?)... well, the Philly sound of the seventies is rather timeless.. or is it?

daddyacey
09-21-2010, 03:37 AM
Another prime example of everything working together on a song, are the two versions of "Grapevine". Two completely different veiws on the same song . Marvins dark solom reading and Glady's ,in your face ,direct challange.