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jobeterob
02-08-2012, 12:24 AM
Commentary: Where's the love for the supreme Diana Ross?
The singer blazed a trail through music and pop culture that influenced artists of many genres and non-artists alike. Her Grammy Lifetime Achievement Award this weekend is small thanks.
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The Supremes: Diana Ross, left, Florence Ballard and Mary Wilson in 1966. [[Motown Archives / February 7, 2012)



February 8, 2012
Diana Ross has never won a Grammy.

Though nominated 12 times for her work with the Supremes and for her solo efforts, the singer behind pop classis such as "Baby Love" and "Upside Down" has never taken home the award.

This Saturday, she will be presented with a Lifetime Achievement Award by the Recording Academy along with Gil Scott-Heron, the Allman Brothers, Glen Campbell, George Jones, Antonio Carlos Jobim and the Memphis Horns, at an invitation-only ceremony the night before the Grammy telecast. Given her stature and the unmatched breadth of her work, it seems a wan consolation prize.

But the Grammys aren't the only place where 67-year-old Ross, a primary architect of modern pop culture over her five-decade career, has been undervalued.

It's long been fashionable to lampoon her in the media and in critical circles, to dismiss her voice and her trailblazing accomplishments — to cast her in the one-note role of incorrigible diva.

The books "Dreamgirl: My Life as a Supreme" by Mary Wilson and "Call Her Miss Ross" by J. Randy Taraborrelli often paint her as a dragon lady, detailing her thorny relationships with the Supremes, supposed romance with Motown founder Berry Gordy, and haughty offstage behavior while shortchanging her accomplishments and work ethic.

The unfavorable perceptions have seen Ross dismissed in ways that other legendary artists who've been passed over for a Grammy [[the Who, the Beach Boys, Led Zeppelin, Queen) have not.

The late Marvin Gaye, Ross' Motown contemporary and label mate, was vocal about his jealousy over attention she received from the label, but he also gave her due props.

"Diana's about business," Gaye told biographer David Ritz in "Divided Soul: The Life of Marvin Gaye." "She'll out rehearse you, out dress you, and outperform you, so you best stay out of her way. I appreciate Diana's trip and her talent. She's worked hard for everything she's achieved."

R&B singer Ledisi, nominated for three Grammys this year for her album "Pieces of Me," is often compared to Aretha Franklin, Chaka Khan and Ella Fitzgerald, but says that Ross is one of her biggest influences.

"She made little girls dare to dream once they experienced her songs or films," says the singer. "And of course, I was one of them — a shy, skinny, awkward, big-eyed, brown girl watching 'Lady Sings the Blues' for the first time at a friend's house on a plastic-covered sofa. I remember thinking, 'Wow, look at that white suit with that hat, and those red lips.' Her version of 'Our Love Is Here to Stay' made me fall in love with jazz and Billie Holiday. I wanted to be like her."

Yet the artistry and work ethic that impressed Gaye and inspired Ledisi are qualities that have received short shrift over the years. One reason may be that, despite all the ground Ross broke, she never fit neatly into existing expectations — artistically or in terms of race.

The genre-hopping in which she and fellow Supremes Wilson and Florence Ballard engaged in during the '60s saw them supplement their Motown hits with show tunes, pop standards, covers of the Beatles and Sam Cooke, and even a country and western album.

That gave way to Ross recording solo material by Ashford & Simpson while fluidly covering Laura Nyro, Stevie Wonder, John Lennon and Marvin Gaye, among others, and acing Broadway show tunes from the likes of "Pippin" and "A Chorus Line."

She added jazz and disco to her repertoire, mastering both, receiving an Academy Award nomination for her portrayal of Billie Holiday in the 1972 film "Lady Sings the Blues" and a Grammy nomination for the disco classic "Love Hangover."

Professor Daphne A. Brooks, who teaches English and African American Studies at Princeton, and is working on a book titled "Subterranean Blues: Black Women and Sound Subcultures — from Minstrelsy through the New Millennium," says that Ross' failure to conform to expectations cost her.

"Black cultural critics [and] white rock critics are trafficking in all sorts of presumptions about black authenticity politics when they dismiss the work of Ms. Ross and the Supremes," says Brooks. "In other words, are we limiting our definitions of black culture when we fail to recognize the interracial and multicultural influences that have historically shaped black popular music culture — dating all the way back to the post-bellum Fisk Jubilee Singers? The music of Ms. Ross and the Supremes challenges us to think expansively about the dimensions of black popular music."

Gaye said bluntly in "Divided Soul," "If she had been white like Barbra Streisand, it would have been one hundred times easier for her. Even with Berry's help, she hasn't reached Streisand's position, though she deserves it."

Questlove, drummer and co-founder of the Roots, suggests that the failure to recognize Ross' achievements is also due to the way art and artists are treated in this country.

"America is such a disposable arts culture," he says, "that it's easy to dismiss things, to take them for granted. And I'm one of those guilty people. I have every [Ross] album. I've seen every special. But you take it for granted so much that you don't even mention it."

Yet artists such as Questlove have been deeply inspired by Ross, to the point where her influence seems almost innate. "There was a turntable next to my bed when I was a kid," says Questlove, "and at my bedtime, my parents would put two or three records on that would kinda take me to sleep. Side 2 of 'An Evening With Diana Ross,' where she does the Broadway stuff, Harry Nilsson's 'Me and My Arrow,' and tells stories — that was my favorite moment. It was a major, major, major staple — that and the Marlo Thomas 'Free to Be You and Me' stuff she did."

"You know," he adds thoughtfully, "some people are just so larger-than-life that you don't even count them as a major figure. They're so ubiquitous that you take them for granted, like air."

Visual artist Mark Bradford, a MacArthur Fellow whose career survey arrives at the San Francisco Museum of Modern Art and Yerba Buena Center for the Arts on Feb. 18, was inspired by Ross' indomitable spirit. "She was a trailblazer who wrote chapter after chapter, who put herself at the center of the conversation and demanded a seat at the table," he observes. "She didn't want black power. She wanted power."

"There's this thing with women — especially women of color — that when they have ambition, it's [perceived as] a character flaw" says Bradford. "But Diana Ross would throw it in your face. She didn't apologize for it. We applaud ambition but on very narrow terms — for a woman, for an African American, and especially for an African American woman — and she ignored all those limited and limiting terms in order to set her own."

Those terms, however, eventually redrew the blueprint for pop culture — and not just for women or African Americans.

"Without Ms. Ross," says Brooks, "the '80s era of Whitney, Mariah and Madonna — not to mention Michael Jackson and Prince — and the '90s and '00s eras of hip-hop soul, neo soul and retro-soul women, would surely look quite different."

Ernest Hardy is a Sundance Fellow and author of the books Blood Beats Vols. 1 and 2. His cultural criticism has appeared in the New York Times, Village Voice, L.A. Weekly, Millennium Film Journal, Rolling Stone, and the L.A. Times. He's currently working on Blood Beats Vol. 3 and a collection of poetry and short stories.

thisoldheart
02-08-2012, 07:01 AM
interesting and thoughtful take on ross. i had never looked at her career in quite the light expressed here. i may have to do some revisionist thinking!

REDHOT
02-08-2012, 08:00 AM
All i have to say about this is Berry Gordy,yes Berry Gordy.
Please stay positive

atcsm
02-08-2012, 08:21 AM
Great article Rob - truly a must read for everyone on the board. It certainly puts things in perspective, doesn't it?

Kamasu_Jr
02-08-2012, 08:31 AM
Great article Rob - truly a must read for everyone on the board. It certainly puts things in perspective, doesn't it?

I agree. It's time someone put Diana's career and importance to pop culture in the true perspective. I especially agree about the part where she's so good and ambitious at what she does, you can take it for granted. There are singers/entertainers like that- ones you don't always give props to -because they're so good, you think they don't need it.

smark21
02-08-2012, 08:48 AM
Excellent article.

skooldem1
02-08-2012, 09:25 AM
It's nice to see an article like this about Diana. This story is being picked up in media outlets around the country. I guess this is "Grammy" build up. Speaking of Diana, this is no exaggeration, as I watched TV last night on 3 different shows they mentioned [[Diana Ross). Two sitcoms- on BET, back to back, talked about the Wiz, and then another show I think it was 227, they talked about Diana Ross and "Lady sings the Blues". I was thinking to myself what is this all about? Although it may seem that she is under appreciated, if one really pays attention, her name or imaged is used often.

marybrewster
02-08-2012, 09:39 AM
supposed romance with Motown founder Berry Gordy

Does this mean Rhonda Ross is Berry's "supposed" daughter?

luke
02-08-2012, 10:24 AM
lol Rhonda. This article kind of portrays Diana as a victim-lack of recognition etc. She certainly is not a victim. She's had many tributes and many artists have acknowedged her. She does not have the voice of a Barbara Streisand. Oprah is as highly ambitious as Ross has been but Oprah does not have the bad rep Diana has becuase Oprah doesnt deserve it. Diana has been a hugely charismatic and successful entertainer and it's great shes being acknowedged though the Surpemes deserve their due collectively as well for opening the doors.

Roberta75
02-08-2012, 10:44 AM
lol Rhonda. This article kind of portrays Diana as a victim-lack of recognition etc. She certainly is not a victim. She's had many tributes and many artists have acknowedged her. She does not have the voice of a Barbara Streisand. Oprah is as highly ambitious as Ross has been but Oprah does not have the bad rep Diana has becuase Oprah doesnt deserve it. Diana has been a hugely charismatic and successful entertainer and it's great shes being acknowedged though the Surpemes deserve their due collectively as well for opening the doors.

"Oprah does not have the bad rep Diana has becuase Oprah doesnt deserve it"

Oh really? Pick up Kitty Kelley's biography on Oprah Winfrey and do try spell check before hitting the submit button.

Roberta

skooldem1
02-08-2012, 10:46 AM
A couple of things are at play here in my opinion. Diana to a certain degree has not received her just dues because of what I think is the "Star pupil of Berry Gordy" backlash. Her and Oprah, although not that much different in age, are two different generations. Diana Ross inspired Oprah to be the woman she is today. Like its been mentioned, Diana Ross was "fierce" before it became fashionable, and she was unapologetic about it- a quality that endeared her to many fans but turned off those in power. It is like, how dare she be "all that". Society at large does have a problem with "uppity" people, especially uppity grand black women.

Kamasu_Jr
02-08-2012, 10:53 AM
"Oprah does not have the bad rep Diana has becuase Oprah doesnt deserve it"

Oh really? Pick up Kitty Kelley's biography on Oprah Winfrey and do try spell check before hitting the submit button.

Roberta

You tell 'em, Roberta and Skooldem. Next to Obama, Diana Ross is perhaps the most disrespected black person in America. She's called uppity and a lot of people think how dare she be as good as she has been. She's been a solo performer longer than she was a Supreme yet some people think they should share every tribute she receives these days.

RossHolloway
02-08-2012, 11:11 AM
A couple of things are at play here in my opinion. Diana to a certain degree has not received her just dues because of what I think is the "Star pupil of Berry Gordy" backlash. Her and Oprah, although not that much different in age, are two different generations. Diana Ross inspired Oprah to be the woman she is today. Like its been mentioned, Diana Ross was "fierce" before it became fashionable, and she was unapologetic about it- a quality that endeared her to many fans but turned off those in power. It is like, how dare she be "all that". Society at large does have a problem with "upity" people, especially upity grand black women.


That was a nice article by the LA Times. I've always thought that two things that worked against Diana Ross is the perception of Ross having "too good of a life" and her two marriages to white men.

bradsupremes
02-08-2012, 12:22 PM
She's been a solo performer longer than she was a Supreme yet some people think they should share every tribute she receives these days.

While I think Diana certainly deserves these tributes on her own, it's important to recognize the Supremes as her foundation. She had more hits with the Supremes than as a solo artist, the Supremes' crossover made it possible for Diana to ascend to stardom far more easily, and all of the qualities of what made Diana a star began when she was singing with Mary, Flo, and Cindy.

jobeterob
02-08-2012, 12:22 PM
It's a pretty standard concept that minorities often attack their own community first ~ they've learned prejudice, hatred, dislike. So some of them practice what they know and some highly resent success, especially long standing success.

You see that play out on SD.

Constantin
02-08-2012, 01:03 PM
"Black cultural critics [and] white rock critics are trafficking in all sorts of presumptions about black authenticity politics when they dismiss the work of Ms. Ross and the Supremes," says Brooks. "In other words, are we limiting our definitions of black culture when we fail to recognize the interracial and multicultural influences that have historically shaped black popular music culture — dating all the way back to the post-bellum Fisk Jubilee Singers? The music of Ms. Ross and the Supremes challenges us to think expansively about the dimensions of black popular music."

Visual artist Mark Bradford, a MacArthur Fellow whose career survey arrives at the San Francisco Museum of Modern Art and Yerba Buena Center for the Arts on Feb. 18, was inspired by Ross' indomitable spirit. "She was a trailblazer who wrote chapter after chapter, who put herself at the center of the conversation and demanded a seat at the table," he observes. "She didn't want black power. She wanted power."

"There's this thing with women — especially women of color — that when they have ambition, it's [perceived as] a character flaw" says Bradford. "But Diana Ross would throw it in your face. She didn't apologize for it. We applaud ambition but on very narrow terms — for a woman, for an African American, and especially for an African American woman — and she ignored all those limited and limiting terms in order to set her own.".

"Without Ms. Ross," says Brooks, "the '80s era of Whitney, Mariah and Madonna — not to mention Michael Jackson and Prince — and the '90s and '00s eras of hip-hop soul, neo soul and retro-soul women, would surely look quite different."

True, true, true and true. And outside her country people always knew it. David Nathan says more or less the same in "The Soulful Divas". What many find so horrible in her is, on some level, her "lack of communitarianism". That's the reason I like the sentence*"She didn't want black power. She wanted power" in the article. But for many people in her country this is not acceptable.

marv2
02-08-2012, 01:05 PM
It's a pretty standard concept that minorities often attack their own community first ~ they've learned prejudice, hatred, dislike. So some of them practice what they know and some highly resent success, especially long standing success.

You see that play out on SD.


I am very offended by that comment Jobeterob because it is a lie! You should be ashamed of yourself. Don Cornelius is a perfect example of how you are lyiing right now. He is well respected and honored by his own community first.


Explain to me how you can sit there in Canada while First Nation peoples there are living in dilapadated trailers with no running water and say what you just said?

skooldem1
02-08-2012, 02:36 PM
supposed romance with Motown founder Berry Gordy

Does this mean Rhonda Ross is Berry's "supposed" daughter?

FOR THE RECORD:
Berry Gordy: An earlier version of this online article made reference to a supposed romance between Diana Ross and Berry Gordy. The word "supposed" should not have been used.

http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/news/la-et-diana-ross-20120208,0,5322332.story

arrr&bee
02-08-2012, 02:39 PM
while i think diana certainly deserves these tributes on her own, it's important to recognize the supremes as her foundation. She had more hits with the supremes than as a solo artist, the supremes' crossover made it possible for diana to ascend to stardom far more easily, and all of the qualities of what made diana a star began when she was singing with mary, flo, and cindy. i agree,do you think that berry[with mary wells in the stable at that time]would've paid any attention to a skinny whiny voice solo girl...i don't think so!!

RossHolloway
02-08-2012, 03:15 PM
i agree,do you think that berry[with mary wells in the stable at that time]would've paid any attention to a skinny whiny voice solo girl...i don't think so!!

Yes, songs like Try it Baby and You're Gonna Come To Me, written by Berry Gordy, were about his feeling towards Diana Ross, before Mary Wells left Motown.

milven
02-08-2012, 03:28 PM
I like this article. They call Diana a diva, a bitch, difficult, demanding and more. I see her as a person who created her own opportunities and then was prepared to use them to make things happen. She was a hard worker and it helped make her and the group successful. She has had a stunning career as a Supreme and as a soloist. This award includes her entire career as a singer including her time with the Supremes. But I think that the Supremes should have their own as a group.

marv2
02-08-2012, 04:30 PM
i agree,do you think that berry[with mary wells in the stable at that time]would've paid any attention to a skinny whiny voice solo girl...i don't think so!!

Oh I know that's right! On top of that she had throw herself at him to get him to pay attention to her. To her fans........she's said so herself!

marv2
02-08-2012, 04:53 PM
Yes, songs like Try it Baby and You're Gonna Come To Me, written by Berry Gordy, were about his feeling towards Diana Ross, before Mary Wells left Motown.

Big deal. Why do you never talk about what Berry Gordy said about DianaRoss when she left Motown? He was none too flattering in his comments.

marv2
02-08-2012, 05:32 PM
It's a pretty standard concept that minorities often attack their own community first ~ they've learned prejudice, hatred, dislike. So some of them practice what they know and some highly resent success, especially long standing success.

You see that play out on SD.

You talk about Black as if we were animals or some kind of scientific experiment you've observed! You know nothing about Black people in this country so it would behoove you to keep your mouth shut. I already know about your thoughts when it comes to race and "minorities"!

motony
02-08-2012, 05:37 PM
I think Mary Wells was long gone from the company before Diana Ross & Berry Gordy were having a romance.Diana Ross is THE superstar Diva of my generation. Although I was never a big fan , I haven't heard any of these new "divas" from the 70's 80's 90's that even come close especially in the charisma department. I wouldn't give you 2 cents for Barbara Steisand as a singer..Diana Ross is light years ahead of her in every department, especailly looks,LOL! I'm excited to see Diana Ross again on Feb 25th st Universal Orlando.

smark21
02-08-2012, 09:15 PM
FOR THE RECORD:
Berry Gordy: An earlier version of this online article made reference to a supposed romance between Diana Ross and Berry Gordy. The word "supposed" should not have been used.

http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/news/la-et-diana-ross-20120208,0,5322332.story

I read the comments to the article. The usual fan wars between fanatical pro Ross and anti Ross fans. Though I note that Peter Benjaminson should get credit for the LA Times issuing a correction on the Ross/Gordy romance as he pointed out that "supposed" should not be used to describe the relationship, though it did stir the ire of an especially fantical Ross fan who self published a book on Ross.

marv2
02-08-2012, 09:36 PM
I read the comments to the article. The usual fan wars between fanatical pro Ross and anti Ross fans. Though I note that Peter Benjaminson should get credit for the LA Times issuing a correction on the Ross/Gordy romance as he pointed out that "supposed" should not be used to describe the relationship, though it did stir the ire of an especially fantical Ross fan who self published a book on Ross.

This quote said it all! If you don't read anything else about this woman this year ,just read this and remember it:

Seeder at 4:41 PM February 08, 2012
Calling Ross "a primary architecht of modern pop culture" is really padding her part. She was an intermittently popular pop singer, who didn't write her own material, and was largely a puppet of her producers who were more the architects shan she ever was. As a Surpeme, she was a member of the best selling [[not "best") Motown group. As a solo artist, she was washed up 30 years ago, after a series of bland adult-contemporary albums. Give her her lifetime achievement award, lifetime achievement awards basically mean "yer gonna die soon, so we'll give you this". But let's not invent a whole new legend about how Diana Ross changed the world and remade our culture. She's all right, but there are far more deserving women in pop music history who were much more 'architects' of pop culture, who really are dying in obscurity.

atcsm
02-08-2012, 09:42 PM
Enjoy Sunday night.

carlo
02-08-2012, 10:32 PM
This quote said it all! If you don't read anything else about this woman this year ,just read this and remember it:

Seeder at 4:41 PM February 08, 2012
Calling Ross "a primary architecht of modern pop culture" is really padding her part. She was an intermittently popular pop singer, who didn't write her own material, and was largely a puppet of her producers who were more the architects shan she ever was. As a Surpeme, she was a member of the best selling [[not "best") Motown group. As a solo artist, she was washed up 30 years ago, after a series of bland adult-contemporary albums. Give her her lifetime achievement award, lifetime achievement awards basically mean "yer gonna die soon, so we'll give you this". But let's not invent a whole new legend about how Diana Ross changed the world and remade our culture. She's all right, but there are far more deserving women in pop music history who were much more 'architects' of pop culture, who really are dying in obscurity.

So if you agree with this, then I guess if the Supremes as a group had been awarded the Lifetime Achievement Award instead, you would have also agreed that they didn't deserve it? Were they not also "pop singers who didn't write their own material"? [[By the way, I don't agree with the opinion of them being "puppets" at all).

carlo
02-08-2012, 10:34 PM
Dianne Warren tweeted today, "Ok that is crazy, Diana Ross has never won a Grammy?!!!! she's getting a much deserved Lifetime achievement award but pleeeeeez".

atcsm
02-08-2012, 10:38 PM
Thank you Carlo - hopefully you are seeing the light about this person.


So if you agree with this, then I guess if the Supremes as a group had been awarded the Lifetime Achievement Award instead, you would have also agreed that they didn't deserve it? Were they not also "pop singers who didn't write their own material"? [[By the way, I don't agree with the opinion of them being "puppets" at all).

marv2
02-08-2012, 10:43 PM
So if you agree with this, then I guess if the Supremes as a group had been awarded the Lifetime Achievement Award instead, you would have also agreed that they didn't deserve it? Were they not also "pop singers who didn't write their own material"? [[By the way, I don't agree with the opinion of them being "puppets" at all).

What I agree with is that the writer of the article was just another Diana Ross fan and for him to try to overstate her significance by saying things like "Ross, a primary architect of modern pop culture" is ridiculous! The way Ross described how she would react to Berry Gordy's commands sounds awfully like a puppet. You can see and hear it yourself in her interview on the Actors Guild [[whatever) on Youtube.

atcsm
02-08-2012, 10:54 PM
To quote someone loved by us all - "Marv, you weren't there"

What I agree with is that the writer of the article was just another Diana Ross fan and for him to try to overstate her significance by saying things like "Ross, a primary architect of modern pop culture" is ridiculous! The way Ross described how she would react to Berry Gordy's commands sounds awfully like a puppet. You can see and hear it yourself in her interview on the Actors Guild [[whatever) on Youtube.

marv2
02-08-2012, 11:04 PM
The show was called "Inside the Actor's Studio". Check it out and note from about 3:55 into the clip here:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDKYRR3mBlY

Roberta75
02-08-2012, 11:06 PM
So if you agree with this, then I guess if the Supremes as a group had been awarded the Lifetime Achievement Award instead, you would have also agreed that they didn't deserve it? Were they not also "pop singers who didn't write their own material"? [[By the way, I don't agree with the opinion of them being "puppets" at all).

Carlo, if mary Wilson were getting this Lifetime Achievement Grammy marv2 would be singing the praises of NARAS. His hypocrisy is astounding and his bitterness is pathetically sad.

Roberta

marv2
02-08-2012, 11:29 PM
Carlo, if mary Wilson were getting this Lifetime Achievement Grammy marv2 would be singing the praises of NARAS. His hypocrisy is astounding and his bitterness is pathetically sad.

Roberta

Jonc you need to shut up because just a year ago or so when you were still calling yourself Jonc, you and your buddys were saying that the Grammys were no longer important or relevant! HA!

jobeterob
02-09-2012, 12:50 AM
Ol Diane is kickin ass these days!

The Supremes were very young and of course, to get their feet in the door, they had to listen. And as history showed, they listened better and worked harder and had better luck than many other groups. And as one of the reissues recently said, they also had Diana Ross.

But puppets! Come on.........Florence got the boot because she lost all self control and would not listen to anybody, including Mary and Diana. Mary a puppet? This is Mary who wore the "red dress" and who wouldn't let Berry replace Jean. Doesn't sound very puppetlike to me. And Diana..........who put on Central Park herself and is famous for whacking Berry up the side of the head! None of them were puppets.

Many people are rejoicing over the Lifetime Achievement Award. Marv is going to have to nibble at his sour crow and continue eating it for quite a while this time.

Now, how many are coming to the pity party? I think we'll have it on Feb. 13, here on SD. We'll get MJ to fire up our best Ross & Supremes songs in honour of the award. And then we'll give Marv his "pity party" cake.

144man
02-09-2012, 04:04 PM
What I agree with is that the writer of the article was just another Diana Ross fan and for him to try to overstate her significance by saying things like "Ross, a primary architect of modern pop culture" is ridiculous!

...and, of course, as we all know, Americans never never EVER use hyperbole...I don't think so:rolleyes: