Researching motown is so frustrating

[dvdmike]

I say this because I have been trying to get information for several years and have had a difficult time getting research that should very well be available. First of all, I have no criticism of the Soulful Detroit site or anyone who posts here, so let me make that clear. But there are people out and about who claim to be authorities, experts and historians of Motown who don't know sh-- from shinola. To be exact, I am talking about information on studios, arrangers and engineers that should be available. Either these people have no clue or they're not willing to share the info, though I can't imagine why. These are not Pentagon secrets. I won't go on and on, I just needed to vent and I thought people here might understand. Thanks.

[Roger Polhill]

What is it that you wish to know?

[ralpht]

I was about to ask....

[dvdmike]

I have asked countless people who should know, which L.A. studios Motown used between 1963 and 1971, what year Mowest opened, where it was, when it closed and when Hitsville opened on Romaine. I have asked about arrangers and/or orchestrators. I know that Motown did not credit their arrangers before 1969, so I have asked who orchestrated the hits and near hits prior to that. For example, I know Paul Riser arranged "My Girl." But that's about it. And I've asked who the engineers were in the earlier days. I know names like Mike McClain, L.T. Horn, Bob Ohlsson, Orson Lewis and Russ T. But I have not a clue who did what. I know that some of these questions may be a bit tough, but if so, I wish someone would just say so instead of ignoring the inquiries. The only person who told me at least that was Billy Wilson. He merely said good luck in finding that stuff out. If you guys can help me, I'd be eternally grateful, but if you can't because there are certain things that you just don't know, I'll understand and I'll graciously accept it. Thanks guys for responding.

[soulster]

Maybe you are asking the wrong people, or looking in the wrong places. The names you mentioned are mostly the engineers and techs, and most of them are still alive. I imagine that artists and other non-tech people would not know, remember, or care that much about that end of Motown.

Well, I wasn't there, but I do pay attention to interviews and articles regarding the tech stuff. I can give you hints for where to start your research. So, to the best of my knowledge:

Mike McClain was the chief Motown technician and was hired early on and was quite young. If I recall correctly, he built a console or two for Motown so they could go to three-track early on. He did an interview in either Mix or EQ Magazine where he tells of how he mastered The Honey Cone's "Stick Up" when he was at Hot Wax.

Lawrence.T. Horn, I believe, was one of the chief engineers at Motown in the 60s, and Stax in the 70s and 80s. He was convicted of conspiracy to murdering his wife and adopted child.

Bob Ohlsson is based in Nashville and has a website up and is still active in the industry. He still reads this and other music/audio forums on occasion.

[jsmith]

There's loads of Motown LA 1960's info in old SDF threads [[most on the old archived SD system). The likes of RobbK has posted numerous lesser known facts about the company's operations there, with much of it being about cutting demos, the song writers involved & the producers who did stuff for Motown in LA back then.
A the company had no really formal organisation in LA then, I guess which studio was used & who the engineer was, etc depended more on who was running each session [[the producer / song writers) so I would think the answer to your studio / engineer questions will be quite complicated.
Most of the LA based guys back then didn't seem to work exclusively for Motown, so no doubt their 'other work' would result in connections that would be carried over into their Motown work.
Do SDF & Google searches for threads that include info on the likes of Frank Wilson, Mary Love. Morris Chestnut, the Vows, Brenda Holloway,etc. That should turn up a number of those old threads.

[bankhousedave]

In the early days, Motown used mainly 'head arrangements' put together by the band themselves. When strings and other instrumentation started to be used they outsourced to the likes of Riley Hampton out of Chicago. Then Mickey approached the Detroit Symphony and Gordon Staples came on as contractor for extra musicians. Not sure of the order with arrangers. Paul Riser was already playing trombone in the Snakepit and was quick at writing charts for horns etc. as a sideline. Mickey ran into Gil Askey running a successful and original jazz ensemble and told him Motown needed him. He came and stayed. Wade Marcus did a number of the Tops and other arrangements - Bernadette for example. Dave Van de Pitte was senior arranger. He had been a bass player and trombonist. He developed certain 'systems' that the arrangers would follow to cope with the staggering amount of work passing through their hands. Jerry Long was responsible for the wonderful Just My Imagination, amongst others. Norman Whitfield did a fair amount of his own arranging, though also calling on the expertise of the arranging department. Paul Riser was among the youngest and is still busy now. Van De Pitte spoke very highly of him to me. Van de Pitte was, of course, responsible for What's Going On.

After it all went west, a lot of work was done by Gene Page, who was also responsible for Barry White's 'sound' and the great HB Barnum.

Others will know more, but I hope that's a useful note on the arrangement side, Mike.

[mhc]

Here are some scraps of info that I remember reading: Smokey R. said in an interview that early string driven tunes arranged by Riley Hampton, like "I'll Try Something New", "Way Over There", et. al., were recorded in Chicago, not Detroit. Also, and this is pretty dubious, Carol Kaye said that she did her Motown sessions [[which I guess means the Lewis Sisters and whatever else) at Armin Steiner's studio. I believe that Steiner's was one of the few independent studios in LA in the mid-'60s that had an 8 track machine..

[smark21]

I'm curious to know what sort of archives Motown maintained of their records, both in terms of the business side and the production/music side. If not much was kept, it will be hard to have primary source documentation of who did what on a session.

[stalebagel]

DvdMike:
You might have an easier time finding info on the Internet about Mike McLean if you spelled his last name correctly next time you Google him.
But the good news is that -- as Ralph knows -- there is a highly respected music prof on the West Coast who is researching a book on the pioneer Motown engineers. I think it is his next project as soon as he completes his current work.
But too many people who should know better have forgotten that Robert Bateman was our first engineer.
Cheers,
Al

[bradburger]

Mike McClain was the chief Motown technician and was hired early on and was quite young. If I recall correctly, he built a console or two for Motown so they could go to three-track early on. He did an interview in either Mix or EQ Magazine where he tells of how he mastered The Honey Cone's "Stick Up" when he was at Hot Wax.

Lawrence.T. Horn, I believe, was one of the chief engineers at Motown in the 60s, and Stax in the 70s and 80s. He was convicted of conspiracy to murdering his wife and adopted child.

Well not quite correct Soulster, as Mike McLean never was with Hot Wax/Invictus. He was the Technical Engineering Department Head at Motown from January 1961 till April 1972.

Lawerence Horn, formerly Motown's chief engineer [[and hired by Mike), on the other hand was, and he was one of several of Motown's engineering staff who jumped ship with HDH in 1967 when they quit Motown. As far as I know, he never worked for Stax, but stayed with Hot Wax/Invictus as their chief engineer. You can see what songs he recorded and mixed at Motown by checking the U.S 45 DM numbers. His letter was L.

There were several lists posted on the old SD forum which had the various producer and engineer codes and their names, which might be of use to dvdmike to help him see who recorded or mixed a particular song. [[I have them saved on my PC somewhere as well).

Al, I'm glad to hear there is a book in the pipeline about Motown's engineering staff. Maybe we'll get to see a definitive list of all Motown's engineers from the beginning till when the company left Detroit.

Cheers

Paul

[soulster]

Well not quite correct Soulster, as Mike McLean never was with Hot Wax/Invictus. He was the Technical Engineering Department Head at Motown from January 1961 till April 1972.


You are correct. I got my names mixed up. It was Bob Dennis, and I don't think he worked for Motown.
http://www.recordingeq.com/motown/motown13.htm

And, I was certain Horn also worked at Stax, if not in the 70s, in the 80s, at least.

Anyway, Thanks for the corrections. If technical info is what the thread started was looking for, at least he still has some good places to start.

[bradburger]

You are correct. I got my names mixed up. It was Bob Dennis, and I don't think he worked for Motown.
http://www.recordingeq.com/motown/motown13.htm

And, I was certain Horn also worked at Stax, if not in the 70s, in the 80s, at least.

Anyway, Thanks for the corrections. If technical info is what the thread started was looking for, at least he still has some good places to start.

No problems Soulster. It's easy to get things mixed up from time to time!

Oh yes, Bob Dennis.

He did work for Motown but as you can see from the article, he was another one of the engineering staff who left to work with HDH at Hot Wax/Invictus.

I still don't think Lawrence Horn ever worked for Stax [[maybe someone will be able to confirm this), but one Motown engineer I'm sure that did was Tom Nixon, who's letter at Motown was X.

I think he left Motown in the mid 60's.

Cheers

Paul

[soulster]

When talking about Motown, most people are so fixated on the musicians and the artists that few ever consider the architects of all that music: the engineers.

[robb_k]

4289
According to Mike McLean, Robert Bateman was their main in-house engineer on early sessions. Johnny Allen and Joe Hunter were among the early arrangers. I'd bet that Mike and Bob Ohlsson could fill you in on quite a bit of information.

[dvdmike]

Thanks everybody for your input. I will try to reach out to some of these people for more information. Thank you again.

[bankhousedave]

Good point about Johnny Allen, Robb. I think he migrated over to the performance side of things with Maurice King, who also did stage arrangements. Did Johnny have something to do with Isaac Hayes later on? Isaac was a brilliant arranger himself, but I recall some link between the two...?

Going back to Motown, we shoulld also remember that there were often two arrangers on a track - one for the studio/rhythm session, which could include horns, and the one assigned to add any sweetening and orchestral colours based on the original. I believe Val Simpson had everything down before she recorded a rhythm session, but Paul Riser or AN Other would flesh out the reeds, brass and strings.

[mirage]

But there are people out and about who claim to be authorities, experts and historians of Motown who don't know sh-- from shinola.

Are you referring to Billy Wilson of the "Motown Fan Club" and now defucnt e-Bay site he put up?

[stalebagel]

Thanks Robb K. for backing me up [[even if you had to do it via Mike McLean) about Robert Bateman being our first engineer. I wasn't making it up when I posted it, Robb. Anyway, let's all give Motown Bob the credit he deserves.
Al

[dvdmike]

Good point about Johnny Allen, Robb. I think he migrated over to the performance side of things with Maurice King, who also did stage arrangements. Did Johnny have something to do with Isaac Hayes later on? Isaac was a brilliant arranger himself, but I recall some link between the two...?

Going back to Motown, we shoulld also remember that there were often two arrangers on a track - one for the studio/rhythm session, which could include horns, and the one assigned to add any sweetening and orchestral colours based on the original. I believe Val Simpson had everything down before she recorded a rhythm session, but Paul Riser or AN Other would flesh out the reeds, brass and strings.

Johnny Allen arranged some of the biggest Dramatics hits and also wrote orchestrations for Isaac Hayes, including the "Shaft" soundtrack.

[robb_k]

4291
Sorry, Al. I was moving through the thread quickly, and didn't see your comment on Bob. Otherwise, I wouldn't have mentioned it again. I know that you started at Motown before Mike, [[pretty close to their beginning).

In the 1990s, I worked at Hanna Barbera/Cartoon Network with Mike, and we talked a lot about the early days at Motown.

[dvdmike]

You guys gave me some good info, thanks for that. But like I said earlier, I'm also interested in the Motown tracks cut in L.A. during the '60s and up to the time Motown opened up it's first West Coast studio Mowest, which appears to have been only open a short time. I believe that Brenda Holloway's L.A sessions which included "Every Little Bit Hurts" and I'll Always Love You" were engineered by Armin Steiner which means the sessions were done at Sound Recorders. But I've also heard that various projects were cut at Columbia, RCA, Radio Recorders, Sunset Sound, The Sound Factory and The Record Plant. It's just tricky to determine what songs or albums were cut at which L.A. studios. I asked Frank Wilson what L.A. studio was used to record The Temptations' "In A Mellow Mood" LP, but he said he didn't remember. Deke Richards said he used engineer Mickey Croffed to do some overdubs for Martha Reeves & The Vandellas' "I Can't Dance To That Music You're Playing." Since I knew that Crofford was a staff engineer at RCA, I assumed that RCA was the studio Deke used and he confirmed it. Lamont Dozier told someone that the backing track to "Love Is Here And Now You're Gone" by The Supremes was cut at Columbia in L.A. and the vocal overdubs were done at Hitsville in Detroit. This sort of thing was done by Motown quite often, recording the track in L.A. or New York and the vocals in Detroit. This is the sort of information I'm interested in. Even the DFTMC site doesn't have studio info, just the city of cities.

[ralpht]

Robb,
I didn't know you worked with Mike at HB. I just spoke with him on the phone last week and he told me that that work stint at HB was the cushiest of his career.

[stalebagel]

Robb:
No offense taken. Just glad to see Robert Bateman finally get the credit he deserves.

Ralph:
Give my best to Mike when you talk to him again.

Al

[robb_k]

4293
I guess that Frank Wilson is the best person to ask about the mid-sixties Motown L.A. operation, now that both Hal Davis and Marc Gordon are deceased.

[robb_k]

This sort of thing was done by Motown quite often, recording the track in L.A. or New York and the vocals in Detroit. This is the sort of information I'm interested in. Even the DFTMC site doesn't have studio info, just the city of cities.
4294
The reverse happened a lot, as well, with demo vocals from L.A. and NY Jobete staff, as well as final vocals of L.A-based singers recorded locally in LA and NY, and with instrumental tracks to fit them, recorded in Detroit.

[robb_k]

Robb,
I didn't know you worked with Mike at HB. I just spoke with him on the phone last week and he told me that that work stint at HB was the cushiest of his career.
4295
I started with Hanna-Barbera Feature Animation in 1995 working on "The Pagemaster". I continued with them after Turner bought them and we became Turner Feature Animation [[working on "Cats Don't Dance"). Then we were bought by Warner Brothers, and became Warner Bros. Feature Animation [["Quest For Camelot/The Magic Sword", and "Iron Giant"). We moved to Glendale some months after Warner bought us.

Mike worked in the old HB bungalow offices. I worked in the feature unit, in a skyscraper, just south of Mike's building. I worked in the Layout Dept., but did a favour for an animator friend of mine, picking up a voice-over tape from the Sound Dept. I saw Mike's name plate and proceeded to ask if he were the "Motown Mike McLean". When he said yes, I told him I had worked at Motown in the '70s, and was a big fan. We got to talking, and I stopped in from time to time. I also visited him at his house, and attended a few meetings of his "sound engineer's club" [[informal get togethers of friends who had all been musical sound engineers).

I learned a lot about the early Motown days and the '60s period, in general, from Mike. I'd bet he could help shed a lot of light on the questions of this thread.

[keith_hughes]

I think you might be able to research the West Coast stuff by approaching the AFM office in Los Angeles [[I assume that's where it is). I am aware of other researchers who have sourced info from there. I have some second-hand info from such sources, but haven't got around to incorporating it into DFTMC. Some day ...

What I [[and I would guess many other Motown fans) would like to know is who played what on the Snakepit sessions. Approaches to the Detroit AFM office have not, as yet, been rewarded with success.

[dvdmike]

I think you might be able to research the West Coast stuff by approaching the AFM office in Los Angeles [[I assume that's where it is). I am aware of other researchers who have sourced info from there. I have some second-hand info from such sources, but haven't got around to incorporating it into DFTMC. Some day ...

What I [[and I would guess many other Motown fans) would like to know is who played what on the Snakepit sessions. Approaches to the Detroit AFM office have not, as yet, been rewarded with success.

OK, I'll contact Local 47 and see if they will help me. Thank you.

[R. Mark Desjardins]

I have been frustrated trying to post this question as a new thread. Hopefully somebody will have a reply to my question or have a suggestion on how I can post it directly. I am absolutely sure I read a amazon customer review of the two Universal Best of the Diana Ross & The Supremes several years back that stated that a reel to reel version of a Supremes album had a very radically remixed psychedelic version of a current hit at the time. Thinking this over logically and trying to do an online search for a review, etc, I have ruled out the reel to reel tape version of "A Go Go." The Reflections reel to reel tape doesn't have a listing for the "extra" track unless it is a hidden one at the end of the tape. I can't find any song listing for the "Sing H-D-H" reel to reel version. Most sellers of these rarities don't have a tape deck to hear the item they are selling, so no luck there, at least to date.
Anyone on this site know of anything in this regards. I do know that several of the mid 60's Tamla Motown family vinyl records often had a different mix for the stereo and mono versions. Thanks for any input! Cheers. Mark

[theboyfromxtown]

The "Reel To Reel" versions were not a medium I pursued at the time but as time went by, I got to know of some differences. The first one I noticed was "Here I Am" by Barbara McNair which has a different and IMO, prettier cover.

The Supremes track you are referring to is probably the one I heard about that was on "A Go Go". Apparently, it's a different version of "You Can't Hurry Love".

[theboyfromxtown]

Here I Am - Barbara McNair. Reel to Reel cover.

4343

[R. Mark Desjardins]

John;
Thank you for confirming that the different mix of a major Supremes hit in a reel to reel format was on "Supremes A GO GO. I was goggling for this information that I was sure was on either the "Reflections" or "Supremes Sing H-D-H" reel to reel versions and keep turning up blanks. A few months back I noticed a Reel to Reel machine at a local thrift store for a low price. I should have snapped it up then, but another chance will come along I'm sure. After your comment today, I checked out eBay and it was my luck to see a great condition "Supremes A GO GO" reel to reel tape available for $5, with the vendor willing to ship to Canada. I won the auction, and will soon satisfy my hunger for this rare treat. Thanks again for helping me with your information. I find that the members of this site are fantastic, not only in their wealth of information, but their willingness to share it. You all make this world which can be somewhat harsh at times, a better place!

[R. Mark Desjardins]

Thanks for posting this photo of the rare Barbara McNair reel to reel packaging. It is unusual for sure for Motown to have gone to the trouble of having different art work for a product. However, I believe the vinyl record artwork was more in shadow and since there was the Playboy feature on Barbara around the time of this release, I can see why they wanted to maximize sales, especially in light of the fact that the "swinging bachelor" readers of that magazine most likely would have had the disposable cash to have high end reel to reel decks in their "pads" as that was what was considered high tech back in the day. Kind of short lived though, so that is why these items are so hard come by, especially in good shape. Thanks for sharing!

[theboyfromxtown]

Thanks for posting this photo of the rare Barbara McNair reel to reel packaging. It is unusual for sure for Motown to have gone to the trouble of having different art work for a product. However, I believe the vinyl record artwork was more in shadow and since there was the Playboy feature on Barbara around the time of this release, I can see why they wanted to maximize sales, especially in light of the fact that the "swinging bachelor" readers of that magazine most likely would have had the disposable cash to have high end reel to reel decks in their "pads" as that was what was considered high tech back in the day. Kind of short lived though, so that is why these items are so hard come by, especially in good shape. Thanks for sharing!


Good thinking Mark and a very plausible explanation that I can identify with. When you listen to the RTR of " A Go Go" let us know what you find. Don't forget that the mono version of that album is very different to the stereo. That reminds me, you might want to look at the archives here to discover the history of that album. At one point, there were more Detroit recordings planned eg In My Lonely Room. And in your endeavours on ebay, you might want to also look for the album paperwork files that are sometimes for sale. The whole history of the album is contained in a clear plastic sealed wallet. I have one for Tony Martin's unreleased Motown album. They ought to be on display in a museum as it shows the memos, mock ups and all that kind of stuff. I find them fascinating.