Mary Wilson & Cindy Birdsong on I'm Gonna Make you love me & I'lll Try Something New

[franjoy56]

wikpedia lists Mary Wilson and Cindy Birdsong as backing vocalist on the Supremes version backing vocals of both IGMULM and Itsn. There is no evidence the Andantes

were featured on either single, both albums list them as well no Andantes credited, but I believe I hear the A's on "Sweet Inspiration" However, the myth that neither birdsong and wilson appear on any Supremes singles after 67 is false. A temptations and supremes release counts a s Supremes release, further the flip sides of Love Child and Someday we'll be together's b side feature Wilson & Birdsong on "Will This Be The Day b/w of Love Child and "He's My Sunny Boy the b/w of Someday........

[Jimi LaLumia]

Wikipedia?...lol...that's the biggest joke going...

[franjoy56]

I also scannned the CD version's of both LP's Joined and Together and neither are the A's listed there either, the mystery continues, and as far as i'm concerned it is the Supremes, bad enought they didn't sing any leads except for Mary's version Can't Take My Eyes off you.

[jobeterob]

You know, it IS ok for Mary and Cindy and Florence to be missing on some of these early Supremes songs..........they might even have known they were occasionally replaced; they might have been able to tell their own voices; maybe it's just us that are 47 years late.

What really changes if as Andy appears to say..............being accurate for historical purposes matters and the Andantes got the release on Stop in the Name of Love??

What's gonna happen? If Mary Wilson was always getting royalties, I doubt Universal will scrap them now. And the royalties aren't much anyways since everyone started downloading. She'll still sing and still move to GB.

I suppose it means some deep breathing exercises for the Diana Ross haters that feel this elevates Ross and lowers others. I wonder if Andy would charge for therapy. Maybe George??

[franjoy56]

I for one don't need therapy especially from those 20 years younger than i, i am just implying that The Supremes Mary and Cindy are on the two singles that i wondered if the A's had apparently not dominated. i know history i was 14 years old when i started buying records by the Supremes, marvelettes, and the Vandellas as well as other motown acts in 1963, and will not let history to be rewritten just because someone says so and weren't even around when these tracks were recorded.

[robbert]

Dear franjoy56, not so loud. There are a lot of grannies and grandaddies reading here...

[stephanie]

No offense to Mary and Cindy but LORD with all of the Temps there they wouldnt need any Andantes! There are so many voices blended there that if the producer didnt like the sound of someones voice he could have pulled that voice or those backgrounds back into the mix. Mary and Cindy are much more represented and in full force with the songs they did with the Four Tops and Jean Terrell. If anyone has a Mary and Cindy fix listen to those albums. I cant believe any Andantes are dominating the Diana Ross and the Supremes and Temps albums. If that were the case they should be on GIT and the Broadway album!

[marv2]

No offense to Mary and Cindy but LORD with all of the Temps there they wouldnt need any Andantes! There are so many voices blended there that if the producer didnt like the sound of someones voice he could have pulled that voice or those backgrounds back into the mix. Mary and Cindy are much more represented and in full force with the songs they did with the Four Tops and Jean Terrell. If anyone has a Mary and Cindy fix listen to those albums. I cant believe any Andantes are dominating the Diana Ross and the Supremes and Temps albums. If that were the case they should be on GIT and the Broadway album!

Stephanie this whole Andantes thing has been very exaggerated just to give some more to talk about. As someone else said, to me they sometimes sound like "Mr. Bill" from Saturday Night Live. I prefer the voices of the Supremes any day.

[franjoy56]

thank you Stephanie for commenting on this, i thought i heard someone say the A's were all over the duets with tempts so i pulled out the cd's and played a few tracks, yes the work Mary and Cindy did with the four tops are much more satisfying esp. "you got what it takes'. by the way is the flo yahoo group still up.////Frances.

[stephanie]

Marv,
Remember when those who tried to rewrite history said there were nothing but Andantes on the Love Child album? For years we were trying to tell people that Mary and Cindy were on Ill Set you Free, and Sunny Boy and there were the detractors. Well now its been proven that they are on there. My ears tell me Mary and Cindy are on How Long has that Evening Train been Gone. I could be wrong though. I know there are people here like myself who suspect that is Mary with the Andantes on No Matter What Sign you Are. Again I could be wrong but Mary and Cindy are buried in mixes with Andantes during this period more than what people think in my summation. When you here a song like Glad I Got Somebody like you Around from the Aquarius album its obvious that those are the Andantes but when I hear Tell Me Will This Be the Day when its not so Mr Billish you wonder.

[marv2]

thank you Stephanie for commenting on this, i thought i heard someone say the A's were all over the duets with tempts so i pulled out the cd's and played a few tracks, yes the work Mary and Cindy did with the four tops are much more satisfying esp. "you got what it takes'. by the way is the flo yahoo group still up.////Frances.

Fran, are you from Brooklyn? If so, I believe I met you briefly several years ago.

[marv2]

Marv,
Remember when those who tried to rewrite history said there were nothing but Andantes on the Love Child album? For years we were trying to tell people that Mary and Cindy were on Ill Set you Free, and Sunny Boy and there were the detractors. Well now its been proven that they are on there. My ears tell me Mary and Cindy are on How Long has that Evening Train been Gone. I could be wrong though. I know there are people here like myself who suspect that is Mary with the Andantes on No Matter What Sign you Are. Again I could be wrong but Mary and Cindy are buried in mixes with Andantes during this period more than what people think in my summation. When you here a song like Glad I Got Somebody like you Around from the Aquarius album its obvious that those are the Andantes but when I hear Tell Me Will This Be the Day when its not so Mr Billish you wonder.

That's true about the "Love Child" album. Now, the way things are going, who's to know if Mary and Cindy were not dubbed on the single "Love Child"! I mean, it could work both ways dontcha think?

[marv2]

Marv,
Remember when those who tried to rewrite history said there were nothing but Andantes on the Love Child album? For years we were trying to tell people that Mary and Cindy were on Ill Set you Free, and Sunny Boy and there were the detractors. Well now its been proven that they are on there. My ears tell me Mary and Cindy are on How Long has that Evening Train been Gone. I could be wrong though. I know there are people here like myself who suspect that is Mary with the Andantes on No Matter What Sign you Are. Again I could be wrong but Mary and Cindy are buried in mixes with Andantes during this period more than what people think in my summation. When you here a song like Glad I Got Somebody like you Around from the Aquarius album its obvious that those are the Andantes but when I hear Tell Me Will This Be the Day when its not so Mr Billish you wonder.

Mr. Billish? LOL! They can sound rather bland at sometimes and glorious at others as when they back the Four Tops.

[stephanie]

Marv and Fran [[and anyone else who cares) Im not usually passionate about threads but this one I am because last week I got [[finally) the Four Tops and the Supremes CD with all Magnificent 7 albums and Dynamite. I must say that the sound quality is great and I can hear Mary and Cindy along with the Tops. Jean and Levi are in all of their glory and even some of the songs that seem lame lyrically are great musically and vocally. I always had the albums and although Im a vinyl nut this CD is awesome. I even have the Diana Ross albums on CD Im waiting on Everything is Everything. I met Fran once a long time ago Marv. The Flo yahoo group is still up but the original moderator came back and demoted me for some reason I dont know why but it went downhill from there people dont comment as much anymore. I guess I get a little sentimental when I hear the 70s Supremes songs and I cringe when I see how they had hits and were just pushed to the side. At least they got a chance to come running out of the gate with Up the Ladder and Stoned Love I was so happy for them after the way they were made to be decoration for Miss Ross. Ross has a great voice and I have most of her albums but the 70s Supremes vocally were magic!

[stephanie]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFei8veDwKg

Will This be the Day. Is it Mary and Cindy? Any Supremes expert would have to at least think it is.

[skooldem1]

Marv,
Remember when those who tried to rewrite history said there were nothing but Andantes on the Love Child album? For years we were trying to tell people that Mary and Cindy were on Ill Set you Free, and Sunny Boy and there were the detractors. Well now its been proven that they are on there. My ears tell me Mary and Cindy are on How Long has that Evening Train been Gone. I could be wrong though. I know there are people here like myself who suspect that is Mary with the Andantes on No Matter What Sign you Are. Again I could be wrong but Mary and Cindy are buried in mixes with Andantes during this period more than what people think in my summation. When you here a song like Glad I Got Somebody like you Around from the Aquarius album its obvious that those are the Andantes but when I hear Tell Me Will This Be the Day when its not so Mr Billish you wonder.

Its been a while since I've had to reference Mary's first book, but wasn't it she who said that session singers were used during that time? If she did say that, then would you say it's her who was trying to re-write history? Can anyone chime in? Did she just state that other singers were used on "Love Child" or did she say after a "certain point" they used other singers, implying that neither her or Cindy were on the songs released under most of the DRATS banner?.

[bradsupremes]

Will This be the Day. Is it Mary and Cindy? Any Supremes expert would have to at least think it is.

Yep, that's Mary and Cindy.

[marv2]

Marv and Fran [[and anyone else who cares) Im not usually passionate about threads but this one I am because last week I got [[finally) the Four Tops and the Supremes CD with all Magnificent 7 albums and Dynamite. I must say that the sound quality is great and I can hear Mary and Cindy along with the Tops. Jean and Levi are in all of their glory and even some of the songs that seem lame lyrically are great musically and vocally. I always had the albums and although Im a vinyl nut this CD is awesome. I even have the Diana Ross albums on CD Im waiting on Everything is Everything. I met Fran once a long time ago Marv. The Flo yahoo group is still up but the original moderator came back and demoted me for some reason I dont know why but it went downhill from there people dont comment as much anymore. I guess I get a little sentimental when I hear the 70s Supremes songs and I cringe when I see how they had hits and were just pushed to the side. At least they got a chance to come running out of the gate with Up the Ladder and Stoned Love I was so happy for them after the way they were made to be decoration for Miss Ross. Ross has a great voice and I have most of her albums but the 70s Supremes vocally were magic!

Stephanie, the Supremes/Four Tops collection is awesome. I too still have all of my old vinyl albums. I much more preferred that teaming to the Supremes/Temptations.

Just last night I was listening to Detoit/Windsor's Oldies Station, CKWW via the internet when they played this really suped up version of "Stoned Love". I mean it was really fast, faster than I recall it ever being on the radio when it was new.


Fran, Mary brought you up onstage at Seaside Park years ago. Right?

[marv2]

Its been a while since I've had to reference Mary's first book, but wasn't it she who said that session singers were used during that time? If she did say that, then would you say it's her who was trying to re-write history? Can anyone chime in? Did she just state that other singers were used on "Love Child" or did she say after a "certain point" they used other singers, implying that neither her or Cindy were on the songs released under most of the DRATS banner?.

Mary was not re-writing history. She pointed that fact out in her 1977 lawsuit against Motown. In her contract they were forbidden in replacing her on recordings. They did that on a few recordings and she took issue. Mary was very straight forward in her book even though she did not tell everything that happened in those years.

[skooldem1]

Ok. That's what I was asking, how often did she say it happened. I think it just became an urban legend that neither Mary or Cindy were on any new recordings once they became "DRATS".

[stephanie]

Im going to bed and I am having a good time reading these threads....LOL Before I say goodnight I must chime in and say that Mary did say that they used mostly session singers but I never took her word for saying [[and I dont remember the exact quote) on her and Cindy never being on any song after Flo left. Look we know that Mary and Cindy are on Stormy and some cuts from the Love Child album and others. I dont expect Mary to remember every single record she was on but I will say this. There were people on the internet for years that were stating that Mary and Flo were not on ANY singles or album cuts after Flo left and that was not true. Even Bayouman who is a Supremes expert will tell you this. Truth be told and I dont want to say who he is but there was a producer [[not HDH) who told me that Flo and Mary were not on ANY of the Supremes records...LOL All I can say is he was there before Motown got big and was gone after 1965 so what does he know and I happen to respect this mans work. It seems like there are a lot of flawed stories but there are not that many flawed ears. Well I guess its no big deal George Kerr told me in 1999 that Flo and Mary were not on the records period. I dont know why he thought that and I am not going to hold it against him but I guess even the great ones remember things differently.

[marv2]

Ok. That's what I was asking, how often did she say it happened. I think it just became an urban legend that neither Mary or Cindy were on any new recordings once they became "DRATS".

She only mentioned by name as I recall, "Love Child", "Someday We'll Be Together" and then mentioned that those singles [[i.e. The Composer, No Matter What Sign You Are,etc.) after 1967 that bombed had mostly the Andantes in the background.

[marv2]

Im going to bed and I am having a good time reading these threads....LOL Before I say goodnight I must chime in and say that Mary did say that they used mostly session singers but I never took her word for saying [[and I dont remember the exact quote) on her and Cindy never being on any song after Flo left. Look we know that Mary and Cindy are on Stormy and some cuts from the Love Child album and others. I dont expect Mary to remember every single record she was on but I will say this. There were people on the internet for years that were stating that Mary and Flo were not on ANY singles or album cuts after Flo left and that was not true. Even Bayouman who is a Supremes expert will tell you this. Truth be told and I dont want to say who he is but there was a producer [[not HDH) who told me that Flo and Mary were not on ANY of the Supremes records...LOL All I can say is he was there before Motown got big and was gone after 1965 so what does he know and I happen to respect this mans work. It seems like there are a lot of flawed stories but there are not that many flawed ears. Well I guess its no big deal George Kerr told me in 1999 that Flo and Mary were not on the records period. I dont know why he thought that and I am not going to hold it against him but I guess even the great ones remember things differently.

Now watch. By tomorrow, Jobeterob will be posting all over the place that Florence Ballard and Mary Wilson are not even on any of the Supremes recordings.........because George Kerr said so! LOL!!!!!

[jobeterob]

Stephanie, who was George Kerr exactly? What he says sounds even more extreme than we've come to realize. Maybe there was a reason that Mary Wilson got pissed off at times.

[marv2]

Stephanie, who was George Kerr exactly? What he says sounds even more extreme than we've come to realize. Maybe there was a reason that Mary Wilson got pissed off at times.

Now you see everyone? LOL! Do I know people or what? LOL!!!

[uptight]

I had been reading that Mary & Cindy weren't on any A-sides after 1967 [[not counting the B-sides). We know they were on some B-sides like "Sunny Boy" and "Will This Be The Day."

The single "I'm Gonna Make You Love Me" has intricate background arrangements, probably more than we hear on the record, as their backgrounds fade in and out with the guys' toward the end. So it can be difficult for the average person to pick them out. But it is not without the Andantes. Some LP tracks might contain Mary & Cindy and the Andantes combined. But the Andantes were definitely brought in to sweeten the sound with their harmonies on many tunes on both albums.

I think the liner notes in the Joined Together compilation mention the inclusion of the Andantes. I'm looking for my CD at the moment; I haven't played it since it was first released.

[marv2]

Here's a picture of Mary, Paul Williams and Cindy in the studio during those sessions:

[luke]

Great pic Marv-thx!! Are u absolutely sure it's Mary and Cindy. I heard Motown had two look a likes who would...:)

[marv2]

Great pic Marv-thx!! Are u absolutely sure it's Mary and Cindy. I heard Motown had two look a likes who would...:)

I kinda think it is the real Mary Wilson and Cindy Birdsong, however I been hearing recently that there never were any Supremes, just Diana Ross with two mannequins......

[floyjoy678]

It's not very hard to walk into a recording studio, hold some music sheets and pretend your going over the songs for the camera

[franjoy56]

Yes Marv, I am the one Mary called me out on stage, I use to run the Sup's Marvelettes & Vandellas Fan Club LOL it folded in 2005. Stephanie its a shame
that the Flo group is not what it use to be maybe u should reclaim it on another medium, I could not log in to it and some of the message havenothing to do with Flo.
It seems we have retractors here who keep insisting that Mary and Flo were not on Sitnol i think its best to ignore them esp. since oneof them was a pr man for Motown. I knew Mary and Cindy were on the Drats and tempts tracks because i heard them maybe the A's are sprinkled here and there but Mary and Cindy were not rep;aced on a sups and tempts project.

[jobeterob]

I will have a look at the Complete Duets tonight and see what it says.

Perhaps it is fortunate the Grammy Lifetime Achievement Award isn't going to the Supremes because it would look bad and very ironic to have so much information coming out on the use of the Andantes at the same time.

[marv2]

It's not very hard to walk into a recording studio, hold some music sheets and pretend your going over the songs for the camera

Uh huh, yeah. I am sure they were thinking that; doing that for the benefit of throwing us off. Git the F^&K outta here! LOL!!!!

[marv2]

I will have a look at the Complete Duets tonight and see what it says.

Perhaps it is fortunate the Grammy Lifetime Achievement Award isn't going to the Supremes because it would look bad and very ironic to have so much information coming out on the use of the Andantes at the same time.

YAWN!!! What so much information are you talking about? All I've seen you post repeatedly is what you read in the notes to a CD that someone wrote. That is inconclusive and hardly any proof of anything. Are you sure you are an attorney? Is it that troubling to you that the Supremes were great singers and recorded their own songs? The Andantes, like the Funk Brothers were instrumentation behind the Supremes. I wonder if we should delve into the later sessions Miss Ross did with Ashford & Simpson and that way I can tell you what I heard.......!

[144man]

jobeterob v. marv2

I suggest trial by combat.

[marv2]

jobeterob v. marv2

I suggest trial by combat.

Wouldn't that be great? Wow, I like that . In honor of Muhammad Ali's birthday! Thanks 144man, just the thought made my day! LOL!!!!

[luke]

LOLOL; at least Marv doesnt allow the Surpemes name to be sullied and he speaks up. Now Marv stop standing up blindly for Diane Earle. Syreeta did most of the Diana leads. It's common knowledge.

[marv2]

LOLOL; at least Marv doesnt allow the Surpemes name to be sullied and he speaks up. Now Marv stop standing up blindly for Diane Earle. Syreeta did most of the Diana leads. It's common knowledge.

Well Syreeta may have been hitting those high notes for her on those earlier albums. Guess who was doing them for her later on?

[luke]

Valerie S. ??

[marv2]

Valerie S. ??


Ahem.........! Can you say "whooooo. ooooo, whooooo.... was the boss yeah, yeah?" LOL!

Now I know why she sounded like a stuck pig on the Tonight Show trying to sing that song. LOL!

[jobeterob]

144 man, lol............trial by combat..............the thing is it doesn't matter; Diana won

Andy et al are just confirming how bad it really was. And I'm just a messenger bearing tidings..........

[luke]

ROFL laughing Marv.[[Youd think the Jones Girls would have helped her out!!) Hi franjoy-that club was great! Good to have you here!