WHEN did Diana REALLY leave the Supremes?

[marybrewster]

All this talk of Andantes on background vocals for Diana has me thinking:

If the Andantes sang background on most [[all?) of the singles credited to "Diana Ross and the Supremes" from 1967 - 1970, since most of Diana's solo releases from 1970 - 1973 [[think "Reach Out", "Mountain", "Remember Me", "Surrender", "Touch Me", "Last Time", etc.) are heavy on background vocals by the Andantes, that those are really "Supremes" records too?

Not to discredit Diana's talent, but if she was such a "sure thing" as a solo artist, why do almost ALL of her releases through 1973 sound like Supremes releases? Maybe she didn't *quite* have what it took to make it on her own?

To me, it's almost as though she didn't "leave" the Supremes [[sound) until "Lady Sings the Blues".

[marybrewster]

Flood gates = open.

[luke]

LOL--u are sooo brave MB. Perhaps Cindy and Mary were actually on the Ross records as the ANdantes were so busy on the new Supremes records.

[jobeterob]

What is interesting is that on the records that were solo releases [[not counting Stop in the Name of Love,In and Out of Love, Love Child, Someday and the other records where the background was buried), like Reach Out and Touch, Mountain, Remember Me - after the name "Supremes" went, the background became more prominent.

The few bad fans amongst Mary's crowd..........if they were Diana fans, they would give out some line line "well now they had background singers that could sing" ~ which is exactly the kind of line they hand out in reverse and which Mary has asked them to stop. And sadly, we have a couple of those around who have refused to listen to Mary.

But, truthfully, more likely the times changed, the sounds changed, and the producers wanted a new sound with that more prominent background which then led to DISCO.

[Motown Andy]

I agree with you Rob, it was the sound of the time.

On radio and records, everyone in the industry was trying to emulate groups like the Carpenters. The biggest records of 1970, 1971, 1972, 1973 all had big choruses on them. Producers who were working with Diana at the time were not only aware, but it was their job to provide hit records. Deke Richards added the Blackberries [[he was dating Sherlie Matthews) to a few of the Touch Me In The Morning album tracks, and of course, Ashford & Simpson have big backgrounds on all of their productions for everyone. Timeframe-wise, it was the same for the Supremes. Why else would you add voices to "I Guess I'll Miss The Man," which is a beautiful song that if you heard live sounded great with just three girls. Or to the Jimmy Webb produced tracks, it was the same thing. I don't think it was a conspiracy, it was just a contemporary sound they were going for.

On stage, I don't think it was about trying to emulate the Supremes at all. In fact, Diana's first solo tour had all male background singers, so on stage they were definitely trying to split from that. I once heard a tape of a meeting Berry, Shelly and Diana had from that timeframe. Diana complained that they neeed girls to sing some of the high backgound parts that the guys couldn't do. She was right. So, they added girls and subsequently songs like Jesus Christ Superstar were added to the act. It worked, and Diana continued to develop her solo stage act, song by song, costume change by costume change, and boy did it become great.

Later, when you think of Disco, the focus wasn't on the voices, or the lyrics, it was on the beat and how everything fit into that. When Disco died [[and oh how I loved it), the focus was on lyrics and big strings... the power-ballad. And then the sound of 80s synth, then hip-hop, and so on and so on and so on. The music industry is really about getting hits.

[Jimi LaLumia]

Yes, the early 70's songs were very Carpenters[[who were as huge as it gets) and the oft malinged "Last Time I Saw Him" was very Tony Orlando & Dawn, "Sweet Gypsy Rose" inspired, Motown was trying to reflect what U.S. Top 40 radio was doing...

[Roger Polhill]

With about as much soul as a Ku Klux Klanman`s jockstrap.

[marv2]

With about as much soul as a Ku Klux Klanman`s jockstrap.


Now you know you need to quit! LOL!!!! oh LOL!!!!!

[BayouMotownMan]

When did Diana Ross leave the Supremes? That's a good question.

Although the official date was January 1970, in my mind she was on her own as early as mid-1967 when Flo was let go. From then on the emphasis was on showcasing Diana Ross. More and more Diana was given more and Mary and Cindy relegated to less. This continued in interviews. It was carefully orchestrated and very effective. On TV, Diana got more camera time by about a 4-1 ratio. It truly was no longer a group after Flo left, even though Diana was still doing all the leads prior. It was now a singer backed by whomever. Mary being an original member, and very sexy, was still able to catch the eye of photographers and she utilized it wisely, even doing a turn on The Dating Game. When Jean came onboard, they were a group again and remained so until dissolution.

[motony]

In the 60's Motown was a trendsetter & set the pace along with James Brown & the Beatles. After the move to LA, Motown became just another record label and morte or less a follower.

[BayouMotownMan]

Very true Tony. All Motown did, in most instances after 1976 was copy disco sounds from other labels. The Commodores, Stevie, Marvin, and later Smokey and DeBarge came up with the most interesting stuff. Oh and a shout out to Rick James and Lady Tee

[jobeterob]

The first articles suggesting Diana was leaving started appearing in early 1966; and by then, apparently Flo wasn't always available and the Andantes had been used for a year or so, occasionally exclusively at least on Stop in the Name of Love and the Christmas Album. Between 1966 and very early 1967, the group was gone. A song like Love is Here and Now You're Gone was as much of a solo as Reach Out and Touch and Ain't No Mountain High Enough.

I remember being told a few years back by someone from Universal that the group was gone by 1967. These things weren't admitted publicly so easily in the past.

[BayouMotownMan]

It was a sensitive situation in the mid-60s Jobeterob. It's not like today when an artist can have a felony and still have hit records. Poor images usually resulted in decreased popularity; parents were much more scrutinizing in what they allowed their children to listen to. For instance, when I bought my Supremes/Motown records, my mom had to sneak me into a different part of town to do this because once when a schoolmate spotted me buying a Supremes record I got the heck beat out of me the next day. It was purely a racial thing.

The Supremes overcame a lot of this. It was considered macho when Smokey Robinson got special billing as did Kenny Rogers with the First Edition. However, when Diana was singled out it didn't go over well at all. It was considered un-lady like and opportunistic. Sales plummeted. This despite the fact that little was different in the recording process before or after the name change.

[Jimi LaLumia]

as I discuss on my net TV show show, STRONG ISLAND SEEN, the 60's were all about GROUPS;
Motown's biggest 60's acts were ALL groups, Stevie and Marvin really came into their own in the era of solo artists, the 70's;
it was too big a risk in the groups era to shove a solo Diana Ross out there; they were afraid of possible failure,and she was the masthead of Motown, after alll..

[skooldem1]

Sales plummeted? I thought that "I'm gonna make you love me", "Love Child" and "Someday" were some of their biggest sellers? Were they not? Granted, they didn't get 4 number one records in a row like when they had first came out, but I think that was because of the departure of HDH and perhaps a little over exposure.

[Jimi LaLumia]

I think he was talking about 'in and out of love', 'forever came today', 'somethings you never get used to", the aftermath of the name change, which led to Gordy freaking out and creating THE CLAN,from whence came "Love Child" after a series of sputtering non events like the titles listed above

[robbert]

Hahaha, don't forget to mention The Composer... loud backgrounds there and I never will understand why my keen 18 y/o ear didn't hear that they were NOT Mary & Cindy!
I heard those voices, but didn't listen... was I too young to really listen and expose an obvious lie, rubbed into me by record company?

[RossHolloway]

January 14, 1970. Las Vegas, Nevada.

[skooldem1]

Diana said that although they wouldn't be together in the coming year, that they'd always be together in their hearts. LoL.

[jillfoster]

When did Diana Ross leave the Supremes? That's a good question.

Although the official date was January 1970, in my mind she was on her own as early as mid-1967 when Flo was let go. From then on the emphasis was on showcasing Diana Ross. More and more Diana was given more and Mary and Cindy relegated to less. This continued in interviews. It was carefully orchestrated and very effective. On TV, Diana got more camera time by about a 4-1 ratio. It truly was no longer a group after Flo left, even though Diana was still doing all the leads prior. It was now a singer backed by whomever. Mary being an original member, and very sexy, was still able to catch the eye of photographers and she utilized it wisely, even doing a turn on The Dating Game. When Jean came onboard, they were a group again and remained so until dissolution.

With your statements, I would say yes, and no. On one hand, Diana was pushed out front, but you also had things like Mary singing lead on the Hollywood Palace, all those Sullivan medley's, primariyl the Irving Berlin medley where Mary just dominates it.... so there were big exceptions.

[marybrewster]

I did once see a line-up of Diana, Mary and Lynda from the early to mid 70's. I wonder if they recorded anything. Maybe the Andantes sang backup? Or maybe Shantel Baker?

[jillfoster]

Very true Tony. All Motown did, in most instances after 1976 was copy disco sounds from other labels. The Commodores, Stevie, Marvin, and later Smokey and DeBarge came up with the most interesting stuff. Oh and a shout out to Rick James and Lady Tee


And you are right on the money with this.

[jillfoster]

It was considered macho when Smokey Robinson got special billing as did Kenny Rogers with the First Edition. However, when Diana was singled out it didn't go over well at all. It was considered un-lady like and opportunistic. Sales plummeted. This despite the fact that little was different in the recording process before or after the name change.

You certainly raise an intersting point here. And public perception is always a huge part of an artists' career. But even though the public accepted Kenny being singled out, it still cause friction within the group, and eventually Terry left to go solo. Many people, including me, felt that Terry Williams was more deserving of a bigger role in the group, his vocal ability was every bit as adept as Kenny's, and he was far more attractive. In a way, he was the "Mary" of their group [[although they actually HAD a real Mary, Mary Arnold)



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0IrpQXDsA0

[Sacramento John]

WHEN did Diana REALLY leave the Supremes? [[http://soulfuldetroit.com/showthread.php?4705-WHEN-did-Diana-REALLY-leave-the-Supremes)

When she stopped having to split the paycheck 3 ways!!!!!!!!

[captainjames]

Now that was my answer John.....lol
I will just add that I didn't think "Everything Is Eveything" sounded like Supreme material nor Motown. There was a mixture of all kinds of songs in there including one from Aretha. Diana was branching out even then.


WHEN did Diana REALLY leave the Supremes? [[http://soulfuldetroit.com/showthread.php?4705-WHEN-did-Diana-REALLY-leave-the-Supremes)

When she stopped having to split the paycheck 3 ways!!!!!!!!

[Sugarchilehoneybaby]

All this talk of Andantes on background vocals for Diana has me thinking:

If the Andantes sang background on most [[all?) of the singles credited to "Diana Ross and the Supremes" from 1967 - 1970, since most of Diana's solo releases from 1970 - 1973 [[think "Reach Out", "Mountain", "Remember Me", "Surrender", "Touch Me", "Last Time", etc.) are heavy on background vocals by the Andantes, that those are really "Supremes" records too?

Not to discredit Diana's talent, but if she was such a "sure thing" as a solo artist, why do almost ALL of her releases through 1973 sound like Supremes releases? Maybe she didn't *quite* have what it took to make it on her own?

To me, it's almost as though she didn't "leave" the Supremes [[sound) until "Lady Sings the Blues".



The real truth, IMO, is that it really never mattered who sang backup for Diana Ross. Or who produced her, for that matter. The LEAD VOCAL is what counted - that, and great songwriters and arrangers. The background vocals were the least important ingredient in the mix. So long as they were good, and supported that wonderful LEAD voice, all was well.

Can anyone here think of ANY of Ross's contemporaries who were able to score so many hit singles and albums -and more importantly, great music whether or not it was a hit - with so many different producers?

The only one I can think who could tackle so many styles effectively was Linda Ronstadt, but Peter Asher produced great bulk of her work over about a 15-year period.

[ralpht]

Sugar,
Tone down your evaluation of someone elses opinion. I don't play that game here. Also, the Waters are NOT singing back-uo on "Someday"... The Waters were used on the west coast and "Someday" was exclusively a Detroit production. Back to my first point: Mind your manners.

[Sugarchilehoneybaby]

Ralph,

My apologies. My intention was to be humorous, but after re-reading it, I realize that the sarcasm is indeed uncalled for, hence the re-write.

Peace :)

[ralpht]

Been there more than a few times myself, Sugar. Thank you.

[smark21]

What was the first recording Diana Ross did that had no background singers?

[smark21]

One other question for Diana Ross experts here: Did Diana Ross ever lay down her own background vocals for any of her songs?

[captainjames]

Of course she did
One off the tope of my head is "Touch Me In The Morning"


One other question for Diana Ross experts here: Did Diana Ross ever lay down her own background vocals for any of her songs?

[jobeterob]

Brown Baby/Save the Children

[skooldem1]

I don't have access to the liner notes for the albums "Silk Electric and Why do fools" but I think she did the background vocals on them. Its been a while since I've listened to these albums. Can anyone confirm?

[reese]

I don't have access to the liner notes for the albums "Silk Electric and Why do fools" but I think she did the background vocals on them. Its been a while since I've listened to these albums. Can anyone confirm?

She did some backup vocals on each. MIRROR, MIRROR and THINK I'M IN LOVE come to mind from the first lp. Maybe a bit on IN YOUR ARMS from the second.

[jobeterob]

Background vocals on WDFFIL, the album are credited on two songs...........It's Never Too Late and Work That Body.............to Margaret Dorn, Leata Galloway and Millie Whiteside; Background Calls on Work That Body to Diane Gausepohl.

[reese]

Background vocals on WDFFIL, the album are credited on two songs...........It's Never Too Late and Work That Body.............to Margaret Dorn, Leata Galloway and Millie Whiteside; Background Calls on Work That Body to Diane Gausepohl.

True. When Diana did her own additional vocals, they didn't list it. Unlike say Natalie Cole, who would sometimes uniquely credit herself as the Cole-ettes or the "N" Sisters. :-)

[franjoy56]

on the Diana debut lp issued in the summer of 1970 there is a track clled "something's on my mind"
i believe it is on side 2 track 1 that track is all Diana with no background vocals, the expanded cd has a bonus live version of that song at her debut live show in Miami. Also "Love Is Here and Now your Gone is not a solo Diana Ross record it has backing vocals of Ballard and Wilson which can be heard very audibly. look what you have done, look what you have done.......Diana left the Supremes right after the Farewell show on Jan 14th by the time the show was over it was Jan. 15
with some back stage madness over Gordy wanting to replace Terrell not even out of the Gate yet.