The Andantes: The Motown Girl groups gave them some serious problems

[dzMusica]

These poor lady's still suffer from the stuff that was done to them. One of the obvious things [[pointed out in their book) is the way some of the women treated them. They failed to mention exactly what happened [[they got this thing about lets take it to the grave, we don't want to tell on anybody) -but emphasize that they were extremely nasty. Well it was only four girl groups and of course, it's easy the figure out that Diana and Martha were most likely two of the culprits.

It's also mentioned in the book that they would sing behind the curtain when the groups were performing.
One of the girl groups got booed when the andantes microphones went out. I wonder which that was? Lol

[bankhousedave]

There's been a lot of talk about how it was somehow 'cheating' to use the Andantes on classic Motown records, but I think it all makes sense if you follow the process through.

Take the Supremes as an example. Here's one of the most popular and successful groups in the world. Rightly, they are out on the road, giving the fans what they want, and earning serious money. Making records does not earn them money - in fact, in a practice that continues to this day, it COSTS them money. Studio time, hire of the musicians, composer and arranger fees, mixing, pressing - the whole thing goes on the negative side of the ledger. Even the cost of getting the act off the road and into the studio is an expense that needs to be earned back from record sales before the performers will see any of it.

As we know, the record distributors weren't that concerned about paying the money the records earned unless Berry could fiind another hit that they wanted enough to pay for the last one.

So HDH come up with a surefire next hit. They bring it to the Funks and spend as long as it takes modifying and strenghtening elements of it, until they've got the treatment down. They use a demo singer to provide a guide vocal, and they call upon the Andantes to create backing parts which, like the Funks, they are able to do, pretty much at the drop of a hat. These are then refined until set.

The various tracks are mixed down and rhythm overdubs added if required - eiher at this stage, or to 'rescue' it at the end. Handclaps, tambourines, footstomps, plywood sheets, whatever is needed to make the track a masterpiece.

Again, either now or later, an arranger is brought in to add strings, ensemble brass and reeds - whatever else is envisaged as sweetening.

Before or after the lead vocal is added, Brian takes the tape and chops it into pieces on the floor, sticking it back together into a dynamic miracle that only he can envisage from the material.

All of this could take up to eighteen months of individual rythm sessions, overdubs, orchestral sessions. mixings, remixings, re-recordings and what all else.

If you flew all the Supremes to the studio, you would have three lots of air-fare. Their entourage would stilll have to be making their way to the next venue, and you would have to spend studio and production time teaching all of them their parts. The lead singer's voice was the most distinctive as far as the record buying public was concerned. She could be brough back to Detroit, or taken to another, nearer studio to listen to the track on the cans, follow the guide vocal, add some personal stuff and get back on the road earning money.

The other girls could learn their parts from the record by the time the charts had been written out and sent to their road musical director, Jimmy Garrett.

The Andantes couldn't just sing. They could create, and they could read parts. The time when enormous record combines would allow acts the time and money to fiddle around in studios until they came up with something were not yet upon us. Berry never had that much finanacial leeway. He had to keep that engine running. And part of that engine enabled the artists to become first class stage and TV performers; gave them the means to play the richest venues in the world.

The Andantes would have killed for that, and a fraction of the returns in terms of fame and fortune.

Still, it was steady work, at least until the day it wasn't any more.

[144man]

Dave, Motown concerts were exciting and I loved going to them. but that does explain why the authentic Motown studio sound could never be captured there, and why the performances often sounded nothing like the records. I'm not saying that the live performances were necessarily inferior, just different.

[westgrandboulevard]

bankhouse dave....

The only thing I'd add to your marvellous post is that, while some at Motown may have lived for the day, and thought and hoped that the good times would last forever, lasting success and fame in the future was always so very uncertain.

No-one could have forseen that, 50 years later, we'd be here, discussing it.

Yes, everyone at Motown certainly had to keep working consistently, and work quickly and efficiently. While the pace couldn't, and didn't suit everyone, the end results were extremely impressive, and have endured for decades...and for that, I'll be forever grateful.

All that said, I've read and re-read your post several times.

If there's a better way than yours of putting it all into context, in such an evenhanded, logical and understandable manner, I'll be damned if I can think of it.

A real pleasure to read.....and thanks for the time you gave up to put it together..... :)

[skooldem1]

These poor lady's still suffer from the stuff that was done to them. One of the obvious things [[pointed out in their book) is the way some of the women treated them. They failed to mention exactly what happened [[they got this thing about lets take it to the grave, we don't want to tell on anybody) -but emphasize that they were extremely nasty. Well it was only four girl groups and of course, it's easy the figure out that Diana and Martha were most likely two of the culprits.

It's also mentioned in the book that they would sing behind the curtain when the groups were performing.
One of the girl groups got booed when the andantes microphones went out. I wonder which that was? Lol


Do you think that they really mattered to Martha and Diana? I would think if any of the Motown girl group members gave them problems it would have been the ladies they were replacing on record [[Flo, Mary, Annette, Roz, etc?)

[dzMusica]

Uh yes! These are women. In the book they say Roz and Annette were very nice but failed to mention that Martha was. They failed to mention that any of the Supremes were nice. And they created only Wanda with being nice of the Marvelettes. [[I don't remember them even mentioning Gladys). They credited Cal with being cool of the Velvelettes. Anyways, stop trying to act like Diana and Martha [[the two top women at motown) weren't nasty people. The Andantes said some of the girls didn't wantthem singig on their tracks [[only Diana and Martha) would have that kind of posessiveness. Martha still thinks it's all about her today. In fact, Roz ans Annette stated in a recent interview that Martha is not that nice even today.

[skooldem1]

I am not trying to act like anything. I just don't automatically jump to the conclusion that Diana and Martha must be the guilty parties. Is it fair to say they were "nasty" because they wanted THEIR group members to record instead of session singers?

[bankhousedave]

Are nice and nasty the only two options? People who are sweetness and light do not necessarily get on in this world. Anyone who doesn't go along with eerything you want could be said not be nice. I've never met Diana, but I've had a bit to do with Martha. She doesn't take any prisoners, she knows how to look after herself, but she is far more considerate and accommodating than she would probably like people to think. She's a real trouper and I love her dearly, but I wouldn't cross her. When all's said and done, she took the thing seriously and worked her ass off at it, bringing tours to Europe, providing work for fellow artists and real muisicians, and keeping the Motown flame alive in the fallow years. She's never whinged about who did what to her, and she's still a star in the true sense of the word

[motony]

Thank you bankhousedave for the above. I don't ever remember hearing a record with Roz & Annette on it that had Andantes.When I saw the Marvelettes LIVE in '66 there were no Andantes behind the curtain & they were GREAT.The Andantes were great studio singers.It was their job.If Martha was ""nasty to somebody there probably was a reason.I know Martha very well since the 60's.

[bankhousedave]

My pleasure, West Grand and Tony. Thanks.

[tamla617]

There's been a lot of talk about how it was somehow 'cheating' to use the Andantes on classic Motown records, but I think it all makes sense if you follow the process through.

Take the Supremes as an example. Here's one of the most popular and successful groups in the world. Rightly, they are out on the road, giving the fans what they want, and earning serious money. Making records does not earn them money - in fact, in a practice that continues to this day, it COSTS them money. Studio time, hire of the musicians, composer and arranger fees, mixing, pressing - the whole thing goes on the negative side of the ledger. Even the cost of getting the act off the road and into the studio is an expense that needs to be earned back from record sales before the performers will see any of it.

As we know, the record distributors weren't that concerned about paying the money the records earned unless Berry could fiind another hit that they wanted enough to pay for the last one.

So HDH come up with a surefire next hit. They bring it to the Funks and spend as long as it takes modifying and strenghtening elements of it, until they've got the treatment down. They use a demo singer to provide a guide vocal, and they call upon the Andantes to create backing parts which, like the Funks, they are able to do, pretty much at the drop of a hat. These are then refined until set.

The various tracks are mixed down and rhythm overdubs added if required - eiher at this stage, or to 'rescue' it at the end. Handclaps, tambourines, footstomps, plywood sheets, whatever is needed to make the track a masterpiece.

Again, either now or later, an arranger is brought in to add strings, ensemble brass and reeds - whatever else is envisaged as sweetening.

Before or after the lead vocal is added, Brian takes the tape and chops it into pieces on the floor, sticking it back together into a dynamic miracle that only he can envisage from the material.

All of this could take up to eighteen months of individual rythm sessions, overdubs, orchestral sessions. mixings, remixings, re-recordings and what all else.

If you flew all the Supremes to the studio, you would have three lots of air-fare. Their entourage would stilll have to be making their way to the next venue, and you would have to spend studio and production time teaching all of them their parts. The lead singer's voice was the most distinctive as far as the record buying public was concerned. She could be brough back to Detroit, or taken to another, nearer studio to listen to the track on the cans, follow the guide vocal, add some personal stuff and get back on the road earning money.

The other girls could learn their parts from the record by the time the charts had been written out and sent to their road musical director, Jimmy Garrett.

The Andantes couldn't just sing. They could create, and they could read parts. The time when enormous record combines would allow acts the time and money to fiddle around in studios until they came up with something were not yet upon us. Berry never had that much finanacial leeway. He had to keep that engine running. And part of that engine enabled the artists to become first class stage and TV performers; gave them the means to play the richest venues in the world.

The Andantes would have killed for that, and a fraction of the returns in terms of fame and fortune.

Still, it was steady work, at least until the day it wasn't any more.

great post dave

[motony]

all the Motown vocalists sounded the same as their records LIVE.The band didn't & sound systems were not that great in alot of places back then.

[motownlover1964]

I'm curious. Did Motown do the same with the male groups by only bringing in the lead singer and used other men for the background? It's seems hard to believe that the Four Tops and Temptations weren't on their records except for Levi and David/Eddie/Paul/Dennis.

[thisoldheart]

ya, were the originals, spinners, or pips ever the temps or tops? if the case is that it was too expensive to bring in all of say the supremes in to record, then how does that logic apply to the temps and tops. methinks we will find out more revelations, especially with the tops where the male and female back ups are so expertly intertwined one can't tell who is singing. well, least wise, i can't! the temps had a whole lotta background going on and sound as if they are, at least, usually, the temps. can't wait till more surfaces on this very interesting question.

[bankhousedave]

A good question. After It's Growing the Tempts requested that they didn't have any additional voices on their recordings. The Tops seemed also to record ensemble, with Levi also singing backing parts, although they always worked with the Andantes. There's the story of Levi coming in off a plane, putting his bag down, recording a vocal, picking up his bag and getting on another plane. I guess the rest of the song was already done, including the backing vocals.

The Andantes weren't the only studio singers. The Originals sang backup, as did the Spinners, and everyone helped each other out as needed.

The Supremes were constantly touring in the sixties, with a string of hits and a lot of glitzy venue and TV bookings. It's likely that even the Tempts, the Tops and Vandellas spent more time around Detroit.

[jobeterob]

Such a rational explanation Dave.

But it's absent all the emotion so I'm not sure everyone can accept it.

Much like the Andantes book where they didn't rip anyone.

Very welcome to hear both though.

[thisoldheart]

There's the story of Levi coming in off a plane, putting his bag down, recording a vocal, picking up his bag and getting on another plane. I guess the rest of the song was already done, including the backing
if mr. Stubbs hopped off the plane cuz motown sent him in to record the lead it leaves the question open as to where the rest of the tops were, and who is singing with the andantes and more frequently in detroit than the popular group. hmm ... that would leave ...

all supposition, but i would love for a serious music critic to find all this out before we are all ten feet under! i find this all truly fascinating, and will give my free services as a research assistant to the would be writer of this much needed book!

[robb_k]

4104

A good question. After It's Growing the Tempts requested that they didn't have any additional voices on their recordings. The Tops seemed also to record ensemble, with Levi also singing backing parts, although they always worked with the Andantes. There's the story of Levi coming in off a plane, putting his bag down, recording a vocal, picking up his bag and getting on another plane. I guess the rest of the song was already done, including the backing vocals.

The Andantes weren't the only studio singers. The Originals sang backup, as did the Spinners, and everyone helped each other out as needed.

The Supremes were constantly touring in the sixties, with a string of hits and a lot of glitzy venue and TV bookings. It's likely that even the Tempts, the Tops and Vandellas spent more time around Detroit.

Everyone seems to forget that The Love-Tones were Motown's main male back-up group from 1961-63, before the Spinners took over that work. They had been brought into Motown with Mickey Stevenson near the end of 1960, or in early 1961. They had been Mickey's back-up group [[then called "The Mello-dees) on his own Stepp Records, and his productions on House of Beauty and Anna Records. They backed up on many of Mary Wells' hit recordings, as well as for Linda Griner and others. They were formerly The Teardrops on Samson Records.

It is also true that early in Motown's history, just about any of the artists that were hanging around the recording studio, at the time of a recording session, may have been recruited to sing back-up.

[motony]

I think I remember Martha tellin me she is on "What BecOmes of the Broken Hearted".

[luke]

Always respect Bankousedave's opinions butI have never bought the Motown explination. Were the other Beatles replaced except for the lead singer? The Emotions? Destiny;s Child? The other three tops? The rest of the classic Temptations?It would not have been that hard to get Mary and CIndy and Diana in same studio while they were touring. WIthout the distinctive Supreme voices its no wonder many records didnt do well aka Composer, No Matter What Sign..It was a foolish move as it hurt the morale of groups and watered down the sound. The Marvelettes were dormant when their final album created with only Wanda, and Katherine felt so bad she refused to be on the cover. How in the world were Susaye and Scherrie and Mary able to all get in the same studio for their last two albums when they were touring like mad?? Sometimes they were recorded separately but they ALL sang on the record.

[bradsupremes]

Always respect Bankousedave's opinions butI have never bought the Motown explination. Were the other Beatles replaced except for the lead singer? The Emotions? Destiny;s Child? The other three tops? The rest of the classic Temptations?It would not have been that hard to get Mary and CIndy and Diana in same studio while they were touring. WIthout the distinctive Supreme voices its no wonder many records didnt do well aka Composer, No Matter What Sign..It was a foolish move as it hurt the morale of groups and watered down the sound. The Marvelettes were dormant when their final album created with only Wanda, and Katherine felt so bad she refused to be on the cover. How in the world were Susaye and Scherrie and Mary able to all get in the same studio for their last two albums when they were touring like mad?? Sometimes they were recorded separately but they ALL sang on the record.

My thoughts exactly, Luke! I never believed Motown's explanation that it was cheaper to fly in the lead singer than the whole group. It was far cheaper to fly in three people than it was to fly in five.

[Jimi LaLumia]

I also agree..these explanations were BS;
everyone knew that the Monkees were a manufactured group, not a symbol rising from the streets of the projects;
The Supremes were celebrated as much for their vocals as anything else,which makes all that seem like a hoax in retrospect;

and it now turns out that the REAL TRUE MOTOWN SOUND was the sound of THE ANDANTES; THEY should have had the hits, at least then
, they would have been able to perform them properly on tour; no wonder the hits were crunched together into a 'now you see it, now you don't' 'medley'..sheesh..

[marv2]

I also agree..these explanations were BS;
everyone knew that the Monkees were a manufactured group, not a symbol rising from the streets of the projects;
The Supremes were celebrated as much for their vocals as anything else,which makes all that seem like a hoax in retrospect;

and it now turns out that the REAL TRUE MOTOWN SOUND was the sound of THE ANDANTES; THEY should have had the hits, at least then
, they would have been able to perform them properly on tour; no wonder the hits were crunched together into a 'now you see it, now you don't' 'medley'..sheesh..


Jimi as a fellow Long Islander and former Detroiter, I have to tell you that you are misunderstanding things. The Andantes did NOT record all of the vocals on all of the Supremes records. Florence Ballard and Mary Wilson are on the majority of those old recordings.

[candykamaine]

Dave, Motown concerts were exciting and I loved going to them. but that does explain why the authentic Motown studio sound could never be captured there, and why the performances often sounded nothing like the records. I'm not saying that the live performances were necessarily inferior, just different.

Proformances never sound like the records due to prob different band members sometimes. And prob different sound systems.

[dzMusica]

Thank you bankhousedave for the above. I don't ever remember hearing a record with Roz & Annette on it that had Andantes.When I saw the Marvelettes LIVE in '66 there were no Andantes behind the curtain & they were GREAT.The Andantes were great studio singers.It was their job.If Martha was ""nasty to somebody there probably was a reason.I know Martha very well since the 60's.

Louvain Demps of the Andantes said they were on 'Heatwave'. If you listen to the chorus you can hear more than two voices. Ya'll talking all this mess but don't know a thing. All you know is that you know Martha. Martha knowing a man is like fish being in the sea.

[jobeterob]

I never bought that explanation either about getting the Supremes or anyone else back; it was an excuse. They didn't want them back or need them back. If they could get away with the Andantes version of Stop in the Name of Love and it going to #1 everywhere and becoming one of the iconic songs of all time ~ thereafter they would not care if it was only Levi and the andantes or Diana and the andantes or Martha and the anantes or a lead singing "ette" and the andates.

This is why Shelley Berger told Berry regarding Someday We'll Be Together that we would believe what they told us to believe. And for many many years, I thought Mary did Johnny's parts............just in her low voice.

What I find hard to believe is the animosity toward the Andantes for doing their jobs; some emotional puffball anxiety that they replaced Mary and Florence; but no one cares if they played the Four Tops. It's all fan silliness and teenage girl angst, the same as those guys do on youtube with Mary and Diana - a lot of garbage.

[dzMusica]

Hey Party People! I'm just telling ya'll what was in the book. Bottomline is: The Andantes wanted to be ackonwledged for thier efforts and treated with respect. You all don't even respect that. All you all are thinking about is Martha, Martha, Martha; She's the girl of my dreams. And bankhousedave aren't you the one who published the Andantes book? If so, You should at least have some sympathy for them and stop sticking up for the Motown Divas. All ya'll are doing is sucking up to Martha because ya'll know her. She's had enough men kissing her behind in her life. [[And still does.) LOL

[bankhousedave]

Thanks for that, Dz. I cannot, and did not, say that I KNOW Martha. I've had a few conversations and dealings with her. I know Louvain very well. She has stayed at my house. What I know about Motown is based on years of study and interviewing artists, musicians, arrangers, producers and others involved back in the day. The air-fare point was a minor one and misses the crucial one that there was little purpose in wasting studio time teaching backing vocals. Even after HDH left, the team that put together Love Child holed up in a hotel where they could thrash the thing out to perfection before adding Diana.

This is not any kind of emotional thing. Supremes records were a product. They were Motown's most improtant product. None of the other acts was as iconic at that time; none had done as much to open up to the wider audience; none had had such a succession of major hits. I also think that there was more of an ensemble approach withe some of the other groups; that they would work out for themselves what they were each going to do. This is obviously the case with the Tempts and Tops, and probably with Vandellas, with the Andantes brought in for futher enhancement in the same way as strings and so forth.

The Beatles wasn't a comparison. They wrote the songs, worked them out together and played the instruments on them. The reality, whether or not the artist got the popularity, or was the one that sold the song to the public, was that nine-tenths of every Motown record was the composition and the production. The Funk Brothers line about throttling a chicken was a bit overboard, but there isn't a person on this planet who won't respond to the words Tamla and Motown, but many can't tell the acts apart. They don't feel the need to. They trust the brand.

If you buy a BMW Mini, you get a Citroen engine. Citroen have been making diesel engines longer. They work better, are more efficient, and will meet forthcoming legislation. BMW buyers pay more for them than Citroen buyers because they believe in BMW.

There were always two strings to the Motown operation. They made records and they made acts.

Just for info, I have never sucked up to anyone and don't intend to start now.

[uptight]

As far as some of the girl group members staying out of the recording sessions or all of the guy members participating in their own sessions, we have to wonder what special arrangements were made to pay for the travel expenses to Detroit while on the road. We do know that many different expenses were charged against the artists, including the recording sessions. This could account for some group members being comfortable with the Andantes replacing them on the records.

After all, the Andantes were a professional house backup group [[not an act on the road). So they could create harmonies and arrangements more efficiently than, say, The Vandellas or Supremes. I think everyone was okay with this at the time, as Motown was a well-oiled machine. Everyone made consistent money at the time.

All these ladies were very young and immature in some regard. But the ones on the road who were so much in demand came back with a certain edge over the others. The stakes were much higher for Martha and Diana's groups than for The Andantes. I wonder if their seriousness and focus in the studio was generally perceived by The Andantes as snobbery and that there wasn't much "dirt" to tell in The Andantes' book specifically.

[bankhousedave]

While we're at it, I should just reinforce the point made above that substitution of Mary and Flo was in any case the exception rather than the rule. I maintain that, on the rare occasions when it did happen, this was more or less the way of it. As an exercise, anyone out there who can sing, have a go at learning the backing vocals to Forever Came Today and Love Child. You don't even need to invent them in the first place. Just be honest about how long it takes you to get all the harmony parts down.

[jobeterob]

Not sure I ever got those background parts down totally!

[bankhousedave]

If you got the moves, you're half way there, Jobete.

[roger]

I can't help but think that if the whole Motown phenomenon had happened ten or fifteen years earlier it would have been called BERRY GORDY'S BIG BAND and we wouldn't even be having these discussions .. we would just all appreciate the great vocalists, songwriters and musicians involved!!

After all .. wasn't Motown in the '60s a communal effort? My understanding is that early in their career THE SUPREMES sang back up for MARVIN GAYE and THE TEMPTATIONS .. THE VANDELLAS sang back up for MARVIN GAYE .. LEVI STUBBS [[uncredited) is on "When The Lovelight Starts Shining through His Eyes" by THE SUPREMES and "Teach Me Tonight" by STEVIE WONDER. All manner of singers sang back up for all manner of lead singers. The bottom line is that the music was great!!

And .. who seriously thinks that THE BEATLES sang and played ALL the parts on ALL their records? All those orchestral arrangements [[didn't some go backwards) .. were they being played by John, George, Paul and Ringo? I think not!! I believe that there were some "BEATLES" recordings that actually only included one or two of the group [[the vocalists) plus session musicians.

Personally I love Motown music, as a phenomenon, and if I find out that someone who was in a particular act wasn't actually singing on a particular one of that acts recordings it doesn't bother me one iota!!

Roger

[bankhousedave]

Roger:

You are right in so many ways. But in the early days, the Beatles did play their instruments. In fact, it's probably the case that they played on those things that were later distorted and added to. But, like everything, there were no hard and fast rules. Yesterday was P McCartney and a string ensemble. Got to Get You Into My Life had some killer brass. Eleanor Rigby was all the members plus a string quartet and Yellow Submarine had a brass band. But the Beatles were the creators of their music, even if they needed pro musicians to realise their ideas. They were the causative element, and they dicided when what they were doing needed a choir, or a sitar or a Binson echo unit, or the whole thing playing backwards. The producers were the equivalent at Motown. Earl: 'A producer would come in, humming some shit...'. The Funks would convert it into something musicians could read or play, and the Motown machine would make sure it was a killer record, regardless of who was on it.

[Roger Polhill]

Roger, Roger. I agree with most you say.To me it was the sound and that was the Funks, the LA. sound I didn`t like at all especially the drummer who tried to solo on his tracks, ie Brenda`s "Who You Gonna Run To"

[bankhousedave]

Roger and out. I agree with you entirely. I'm just running through some video interviews I did that have not seen the light of day. Ralph and I are going to get together and put them out on the Tera Shirma site sometime between now and when the aliens arrive and they and Stephen Hawking scare the bejesus out of each other.

[smark21]

When The Andantes sang on a record, I would presume the act would be charged for having them on their record? If so, I can see why a female group would resent them. Not only are the members not asked to sing on the record but they have to pay the women as well.

[dzMusica]

When The Andantes sang on a record, I would presume the act would be charged for having them on their record? If so, I can see why a female group would resent them. Not only are the members not asked to sing on the record but they have to pay the women as well.

Good point!

[captainjames]

Were Background singers paid for their session work or paid for session work and royalties if the song was a hit?

[dzMusica]

Were Background singers paid for their session work or paid for session work and royalties if the song was a hit?

They were paid for their session work. They said they didn't know they could have gotten/or were supposed to get royalties

[jobeterob]

The book is Motown from the Background: The Authorized Biography of The Andantes by Vickie Wright, Louvain Demps, Marlene Barrow - Tate, and Jackie Hicks.

No dirt, no mean words, no trashing and for that, they are owed our respect.

Louvain has posted here before I believe. I wonder what she would have to say now.

[captainjames]

Thanks Dz
That is what I thought so if the song was a hit the royalties would still go to the group members regardless if they were on it or not.


They were paid for their session work. They said they didn't know they could have gotten/or were supposed to get royalties

[dzMusica]

Thanks Dz
That is what I thought so if the song was a hit the royalties would still go to the group members regardless if they were on it or not.

Yes! Even though the artists themselves would get shafted and wouldn't receive theirs till much later. The Andantes said that they never kept a record of all the songs they sang on. But of course, they know what hits they sang on. They can, and others, hear themselves on the songs. On thing they said would happen is that the group would be in the studio and t as well as themselves. The producers would turn the groups mikes down and keep the Andantes on. On playback the girls would say 'Oh, we sound good' but it was really the Andantes. LOL

[ralpht]

Royalties are NOT paid to back-up singers. They are paid for the session and nothing more.

[captainjames]

Thanks Ralph
I got it and Mr. Gordy/Motown paid session/background singers all the time. I remember once Diana speaking of just being able to get paid for doing some background work at Motown.


Royalties are NOT paid to back-up singers. They are paid for the session and nothing more.

[motony]

I'll bet you that the Andantes made more money as session singers per the hours put in then what the groups made with all their hardwork on the road.

[1382hitsville]

The most beautiful line in the book from the Andantes is:

"you have to learn to move on when negative circumstances happen to you rather than lash out to the people who hurt you. If you can not correct the wrong, then let it go."

[robbert]

Basically these are interesting discussions. Just like the other one about the changes in Martha's voice. I mentioned that last fact years ago and then many were outraged... "...how DARE I....".

I don't like the TONE of the posts of dzMusica, however. Whatever is brought forward by other posters, he/she keeps coming back with a mere "Yes, BUT..." It's the intention I smell behind the words, and I don;t like that feeling.

I admire the patience of many of the posters here with dz.

[marybrewster]

Plain and simple; if these women are suffering from what was done to them 5 decades ago, they should seek professional help. Let go and let God.

[jillfoster]

I also agree..these explanations were BS;
everyone knew that the Monkees were a manufactured group, not a symbol rising from the streets of the projects;
The Supremes were celebrated as much for their vocals as anything else,which makes all that seem like a hoax in retrospect;

and it now turns out that the REAL TRUE MOTOWN SOUND was the sound of THE ANDANTES; THEY should have had the hits, at least then
, they would have been able to perform them properly on tour; no wonder the hits were crunched together into a 'now you see it, now you don't' 'medley'..sheesh..


Yes... and the ironic thing is, altough the Monkees were manufactured, they ahd no backing singers substiuting for THEM... they sang on every one of their records, with no session background vocalists.

[luke]

The Blossoms and Sweets seem to be holding up well.

[franjoy56]

Well lets be clear here the Supremes, The Marvelettes and Vandellas all had great hit records with their
own backing vocals covering those songs well without the andantes thank you, It was just a company

decision to make the records sound smoother or records with a choral feel. Take for instance
the songs come and get thes memories, beechwood 45789, please mr. postman, playboy, baby love, come see about me, heat wave, quicksand, nowhere to run, back in my arms again as well as the accompanying albums that accompanied these hits these songs are genuine girl group records, later on Berry and or the powers that be decided to bring the andantes in to glorify those tracks and in many cases it had already taken place on their songs but the backgrounds of the genuine singers are featured here and that is the foundation of the girl groups sound at MOTOWN, the andantes came in after the genuine sound had been created. AFTER hearing wha the Andantes did for Mary Wells records particularly the My Guy album it was inevitable that they be heard on the sups, marvs and vandellas later on as well as the velevelettes whether we like it or not, lets face it they had a beautiful sound, but it does not take away from what mary, flo, catherine, juanita, wanda, rosalind, annette, and betty created first. .

[milven]

When the Andrews Sisters recorded in the 40's, they did not have any background singers. It was just them. Patti Andrews was lead singer. In the song below, she starts out the song, but then then Maxene and LaVerne join in and sing in harmony. Their harmony and sound is distinct and unique. When they sing in harmony, they are a true group with a unique group sound.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe2UXccid40

In the fifties, the McGuire Sisters did have background singers on many of their hits. Phyllis was the lead singer, but through most of the song, her sisters Dorothy & Christine sang along side her in harmony. And again, when they sang in harmony, their sound was distinct and unique. But, in the song below, you will hear male voices singing background while the Mc Guires sing in harmony. In fact, there is even a point where the male singers are doing the lead and the Mc Guires are doing the background.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msAICs-OodM&feature=related

And check out how groups sang on TV back in the day. They stood side by side and sang together in harmony. When Phyllis had a solo spot, the two girls stepped back and the camera moved in on Phyllis.
Quite a difference from the Supremes when sometimes it appeared that Mary and Cindy were standing an airport field apart.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aH9HlmVfdyg

I see nothing wrong with augmenting the sound of a group with background singers. But to replace the group and have just the lead with session singers is deceptive.

And does anyone know if the three Tops are on Just Ask The Lonely ? All I hear is Levi and a bunch of woman singers.

[skooldem1]

Singers standing shoulder to shoulder while singing is so old fashioned. I'm glad this all changed during the Rock Era. If the Supremes had continued to sing this way- like on the Ed Sullivan show [[Come See about Me) that would have been sooo boring. They were a Rock act, not the Andrew sisters.

[skooldem1]

To a certain degree it most certainly does take away from the girls [[Florence and Mary). Florence more than Mary, as it turns out Florence was the one replaced most of the time, while Mary still did her vocals. We have all heard with our own ears, Florence sounding great, to Florence sounding not so great. I wonder if her problem was consistency?

[motony]

maybe it was tardiness, too busy with her large family & their needs & not focused to get to the studio on time.If a singer was late Motown sure had others to step in to sing the part.Time is money.

[stingbeelee]

Milven; the other three tops are on "Ask The Lonely" but sing lower than usual; if you listen to the accapella version of the song on the Singing Machine accapella CD's, you can hear them better.

[selinasian]

Royalties are NOT paid to back-up singers. They are paid for the session and nothing more.
Were they paid again if their vocals were re-used? For example, I remember reading that some Supremes tracks were originally recorded by Kim Weston and the Andantes and all that was done was Diana's voice was added to the original track including the Andantes vocals.

[jobeterob]

Session singers would usually be paid for the session - come to work, you get $150 for 3 hours work. They might not have a clue where their background work would end up and perhaps the producers didn't know either.

That is how they get paid; not royalties.

A more interesting legal question might be "should a group member be paid royalties when they were not on the released record"? Their contract probably says they get paid for sales when they are on the record. So, a question might be "did Motown NOT pay the group member when they knew the Andantes were singing as opposed to Flo, Mary, Cindy, Annette, Lois, and any number of Marvelettes? Knowing Motown, they probably didn't pay them. Maybe this is what some of the disputes were about.

But as I recall Cindy and all the Vandellas other than Martha never got any royalties anyway. They were employed Supremes and Vandellas.

[skooldem1]

Well it certainly does make you wonder. Maybe that's why when Florence was kicked out of the group she only got a few thousand dollars. She wasn't on as many "records" as we think.

Cheaper to pay a flat salary for a session singer with no rights to royalties.

[1382hitsville]

The Supremes could sing harmony. Diana and Mary both has written about that in their books. Some occasions Berry was meeting some businesspartners and asked the Supremes to sing on the spot.

Here is something funny [[posted here before, but relevant to this post), the Supremes with the Andrew Sisters:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgTsBsSngrc

[milven]

The Supremes sound great in harmony. Too bad they did not do it more often. They came off much better singing the Andrews songs than the Andrews singing the Supremes. I love the Supremes but wish that they sang more harmony instead of lead singer and two barely can hear miked down singers

Another great example of Supremes harmony is Mary Sherrie and Cindy singing the National Anthem without music

[motony]

one thing I noticed back in the day when Diana Ross went "solo" that there were more backgrounds singing upfront then there had been on Supremes records in a long time. getting back to the pay question...keep in mind that the money from the concert appearances went to Motown, the artists were getting a weekly check so think about all those Supremes sold out engagements & they were getting about $300.00 each a week...like Mary Wells said in the Unsung episode "Wheres all the money"?

[BayouMotownMan]

I can hear Mary and Cindy on most of the Supremes/Temptations recordings. Usually it was the Supremes with only two or three Temptations doing the backing vocals so as not the drown the girls out. The Andantes have said they recall singing on some of the duet recordings. I believe I'm Gonna Make You Love Me and Impossible Dream does have other voices, but the backgrounds are mixed so far back it's truly hard to tell.

I always felt both duet lps were sub par. I was disappointed in them at the time of their release and still rarely listen to these tracks. They were mostly unimaginative covers of predominantly Jobete songs...a windfall for Mr. Gordy. The best track to me was Why [[Must We Fall In Love). Only the Brits appreciated that song. The release of The Weight as a single was disastrous. It simply was not single material

[motown_david]

The old chestnut about the Vandellas being employed adn not receiving royalties is just not true - or at least not in the early days of their existance.

I have seen Annette Helton's original contract and she signed directly to Motown, as did Roz Holmes. Niether of the girls was employed by Martha but rather by Motown. The royalties for their tracks are still shared equally by the 3 group members and she still receives regular royalty statements for all the tracks she sings on, which go up to June 1964, when she retired from the group, as she was 6 months pregnant with Derek, her first child. Her last recording session as a Vandella was for Jimmy Mack and Third Finger Left Hand - not a bad way to finish your recording career at Motown.

I also know that Roz receives her royalty cheques regularly from Motown to this day.

Betty's first session was for Dancing In The Street a couple of weeks later. Cal Street of the Velvelettes told a very good friend of mine that she accompanied Betty to this session as she was so nervous recording as a Vandella for the first time. She was also employed directly by Motown after serving a short trial period. Betty told me this herself last year in Detroit when we had the pleasure of meeting her.

I believe that later Vandellas were employees of the group and receive no royalties from Motown, although I have no direct proof of this as I have with Annette and Roz.

It's amazing how stories become facts just because they appear on the Internet. The truth is often something quite different.

[soulballad]

The Andantes are on the duets albums. IMO the songs below are the songs that I can hear Andantes

1) Try It
2) Funky Broadway
3) Sweet Inspiration
and I think I'll Try Something New and I'm Gonna Make You Love mixed with Mary and Cindy.
4) Sing A Simple Song
5) For Better Or Worse

I'm sure there are more.

[jobeterob]

Motown David............does Martha Reeves not say in interviews that all the Vandellas were employed? I thought I'd seen interviews where she said that..............and of course, even if she did, it doesn't necessarily mean it was true. Perhaps it became true for later day Vandellas.

I believe people on here have stated Cindy got royalties too but I think it might have said opposite in some books. And I think there was a thread on here on this.

The first two Sups & Tempts duets albums were huge hits and they were excellent albums, I thought. How could you ever beat Dennis Edwards doing THAT version of I'm Losing You on TCB. And a lot of the cuts on Join the Tempts were excellent - Gonna Make You Love Me, Impossible Dream, Funky Broadway and a lot more of them. On Broadway and Together were a lot weaker.

I'm surprised at how many cuts you say the Andantes were on. Now I'm starting to question the voices I've heard for all these years and wonder who I really heard.

[motony]

thank you, motown-david as I know you really know Roz & Annette. I also beleive it is just Roz & Annette on the first several records & the whole Heat Wave LP.

[marv2]

I can't help but think that if the whole Motown phenomenon had happened ten or fifteen years earlier it would have been called BERRY GORDY'S BIG BAND and we wouldn't even be having these discussions .. we would just all appreciate the great vocalists, songwriters and musicians involved!!

After all .. wasn't Motown in the '60s a communal effort? My understanding is that early in their career THE SUPREMES sang back up for MARVIN GAYE and THE TEMPTATIONS .. THE VANDELLAS sang back up for MARVIN GAYE .. LEVI STUBBS [[uncredited) is on "When The Lovelight Starts Shining through His Eyes" by THE SUPREMES and "Teach Me Tonight" by STEVIE WONDER. All manner of singers sang back up for all manner of lead singers. The bottom line is that the music was great!!

And .. who seriously thinks that THE BEATLES sang and played ALL the parts on ALL their records? All those orchestral arrangements [[didn't some go backwards) .. were they being played by John, George, Paul and Ringo? I think not!! I believe that there were some "BEATLES" recordings that actually only included one or two of the group [[the vocalists) plus session musicians.

Personally I love Motown music, as a phenomenon, and if I find out that someone who was in a particular act wasn't actually singing on a particular one of that acts recordings it doesn't bother me one iota!!

Roger

You go Roger! You have it exactly right and thank you. You saved me from having to type all that out.

[marv2]

Session singers would usually be paid for the session - come to work, you get $150 for 3 hours work. They might not have a clue where their background work would end up and perhaps the producers didn't know either.

That is how they get paid; not royalties.

A more interesting legal question might be "should a group member be paid royalties when they were not on the released record"? Their contract probably says they get paid for sales when they are on the record. So, a question might be "did Motown NOT pay the group member when they knew the Andantes were singing as opposed to Flo, Mary, Cindy, Annette, Lois, and any number of Marvelettes? Knowing Motown, they probably didn't pay them. Maybe this is what some of the disputes were about.

But as I recall Cindy and all the Vandellas other than Martha never got any royalties anyway. They were employed Supremes and Vandellas.

Ah, NO! In Mary Wilson's case, they had to pay her royalties on everything! In her contract Motown was forbidden from replacing her on Supremes recordings or in the group itself. Motown must have forgotten what they agreed to in their own contracts with the Supremes. It all came up again in the late seventies.

[marv2]

Well it certainly does make you wonder. Maybe that's why when Florence was kicked out of the group she only got a few thousand dollars. She wasn't on as many "records" as we think.

Cheaper to pay a flat salary for a session singer with no rights to royalties.

Then why is it that Diana Ross only got something like $250,000 when she left Motown in 1981? That was for all of her Supremes work and solo work........ Mary has said that her split from the Supremes [[Original Supremes) account was around $ 125,000 "tax-free American dollars" as Berry Gordy kept telling her! LOL!!!!

Florence was not the only one to get shaft.......... So drop your theory on Florence Ballard prescence on the Supremes recordings. She was on most of them as Andy has said.

[marv2]

The old chestnut about the Vandellas being employed adn not receiving royalties is just not true - or at least not in the early days of their existance.

I have seen Annette Helton's original contract and she signed directly to Motown, as did Roz Holmes. Niether of the girls was employed by Martha but rather by Motown. The royalties for their tracks are still shared equally by the 3 group members and she still receives regular royalty statements for all the tracks she sings on, which go up to June 1964, when she retired from the group, as she was 6 months pregnant with Derek, her first child. Her last recording session as a Vandella was for Jimmy Mack and Third Finger Left Hand - not a bad way to finish your recording career at Motown.

I also know that Roz receives her royalty cheques regularly from Motown to this day.

Betty's first session was for Dancing In The Street a couple of weeks later. Cal Street of the Velvelettes told a very good friend of mine that she accompanied Betty to this session as she was so nervous recording as a Vandella for the first time. She was also employed directly by Motown after serving a short trial period. Betty told me this herself last year in Detroit when we had the pleasure of meeting her.

I believe that later Vandellas were employees of the group and receive no royalties from Motown, although I have no direct proof of this as I have with Annette and Roz.

It's amazing how stories become facts just because they appear on the Internet. The truth is often something quite different.

Motown_David wrote: "It's amazing how stories become facts just because they appear on the Internet. The truth is often something quite different."

That is so important for people to remember. Rational people that this. Thanks Motown David.

[marv2]

Motown David............does Martha Reeves not say in interviews that all the Vandellas were employed? I thought I'd seen interviews where she said that..............and of course, even if she did, it doesn't necessarily mean it was true. Perhaps it became true for later day Vandellas.

I believe people on here have stated Cindy got royalties too but I think it might have said opposite in some books. And I think there was a thread on here on this.

The first two Sups & Tempts duets albums were huge hits and they were excellent albums, I thought. How could you ever beat Dennis Edwards doing THAT version of I'm Losing You on TCB. And a lot of the cuts on Join the Tempts were excellent - Gonna Make You Love Me, Impossible Dream, Funky Broadway and a lot more of them. On Broadway and Together were a lot weaker.

I'm surprised at how many cuts you say the Andantes were on. Now I'm starting to question the voices I've heard for all these years and wonder who I really heard.

Cindy Birdsong did receive royalties. She also signed them away when she negotiated her release from Motown she opted for a lump sum cash payout.

You can go and on building up this myth in your mind about the Andantes, but I know and many others know that they did not record all of the hits! On the other hand, the Funk Brothers DID!

[motown_david]

Yes, Jobeterob, Martha has said that in interviews and she has even told me that herself. However, the truth is that she is talking about the Vandellas in later years and she does in fact employ them herself. Lois and Delphine, for example, are employed by her. But the original grouping and Betty do receive their third share of royalties for the records they are on. As I said, I've seen Annette's contract with Motown and she banks her royalty cheaues with glee for the work she did many years ago. Long may it continue! I'll speak with her about all of this again when my wife and I vacation with Annette and her husband in May. She is a very good friend and has been for many years now. We had the pleasure of their company last year when we took Dann and Annette around the UK for two weeks. She has some great stories to tell of the early years of Motown and I'm encouraging her to write them all down.

[motony]

Roz, Annette & Martha on Marvins "Stubborn Kinda Fellow" "Hitchike" & "Pride & Joy" are the same voices as "Come & Get These Memories" "Heatwave" & Quicksand".

[motown_david]

The 3 ladies are so very proud of their work as Marvin's backing vocalists, Tony. There is a Hip-O CD crying to come out that features them on bv duty with various stars in the early days of Motown. LaBrenda Ben, Eddie Holland, Mable John, Bunny Paul, Morrocco Muzic Makers and Saundra Edwards all benefited from their bvs. Annette told me that they were kept very busy in the studio in the early days of Hitsville - sometimes on bv duty, sometimes on handclaps and footstomps for which they were paid $5 a session. I guess though that when success came to the group the Andantes took over their duties.
I've just bought a 45 on Ebay called I Think Of You by Mike Hanks and the Del Phis on the Mah's label. Once again their sound is evident and Annettte's comment when I sent her an mp3 of the song was that she can hear their original lead singer, Gloria Jean, loud and clear. She had never heard the track since hearing the playback at the original session in about 1961. The Del Phi / Vandella sound is unmistakable.
Do I come over as an enthusiast for the group? You betcha.

[chidrummer]

posted by roger:

"And .. who seriously thinks that THE BEATLES sang and played ALL the parts on ALL their records? All those orchestral arrangements [[didn't some go backwards) .. were they being played by John, George, Paul and Ringo? I think not!! I believe that there were some "BEATLES" recordings that actually only included one or two of the group [[the vocalists) plus session musicians."

Funny you should mention that, roger. The Beatles are the most documented group in Rock history. The question you just asked can be found in at least three different books concerning the group's recording history - The Beatles Recording Sessions by Mark Lewisohn [[who actually knows more about the group's activities than the surviving Beatles), Recording The Beatles by Brian Kehew & Kevin Ryan [[a much more technical treatment of the recording gear and methods used in studio 2 at Abbey Road) and The Beatles on Parlophone Records by Bruce Spizer [[a meticulous biographer of the Beatles' career).

Between those books one can easily answer virtually any question that can be answered about who did what, when, where, how and why. I wish Motown's output would be given such exhaustive and revered treatment. That would be amazing.

[jobeterob]

Awesome, Motown David, thank you for the reply.

Tell Annette again that Motown was never better than when the Vandellas were singing "don't pass up this chance, it sounds like a new romance, a heat wave" and they will always be remembered for it.

Glad to hear about the royalties.

Tony............wasn't it the Supremes on Stubborn Kind of Fellow or am I getting too mixed up from all of the Andantes information?

[motony]

No, the Vandellas were on Marvins first LP including the hits Stubborn Kinda Fellow Hitchike & Pride & Joy. Supremes were on Youre a Wonderful One & Can I Get A Witness.

[jobeterob]

Right.............I mixed up Stubborn Kind of Fellow and Can I Get A Witness. Thank you.