Diana Ross An Danates Discussed on new STRONG ISLAND SEEN

[Jimi LaLumia]

starring me, of course!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btPJEvOl0c4

[copley]

An Danates!!! Are you serious?

[Jimi LaLumia]

we touch on this subject at one point early on in the show..why, am I prohibited from talking about it???[[SDF gets a shout out, as well....)

[copley]

Jimi, they are called the ANDANTES - one word, only 2 A's.

[jobeterob]

You can talk about whatever you want here, within reason. But you do need to spell ANDANTES right!

And I must admit I was blown away by the deception of who sang on those records as well. I say again......I always thought the Johnny Bristol lines on Someday We'll Be Together was Mary Wilson. And if I had heard she wasn't there during 70's, I would not have believed it.

Interesting, your comment about the Rolling Stone and the augmentation on their songs.

[Jimi LaLumia]

yes and at one pint the lead singer tried to revert it to Mick Jagger And the Rolling Stones,but Keith and the boys put an end to that..
yes, I know how to spell ,I was being clever, instead of Diana Ross and the Supremes,I made it Diana Ross an D antes..never mind..too hip for the room, I guess...lol

[copley]

Went right over my head:D

[jobeterob]

Yes, way too clever for me too.......but I like it.

I liked your video too; very human and connecting.

So, was pint deliberate too?

What can a Rossfan say: you called her Miss Ross! And even I don't.

[bankhousedave]

Motown's line was: 'It's what's in the groove that counts'. All records were enhanced. If you listen to a Leonard Cohen album, you don't just get him with a guitar; you get whatever he and the producer think it needs to make it go.

Milli Vanilli was a big storm in a teacup, because they were not either unique or rare, The Monkees never played on their stuff - surprise! But that was way down the line. A huge number of records in the US and the UK were made by session guys - normally the same half dozen - and were then learned by the act that would take them on the road. Even when the act had musical ability, such as The Animals, the producer didn't take a risk on them for the record.

Did anyone think it was one of the Four Tops singing 'Just ask the lonely'?

[milven]

Ans what about the Archies? Does anyone really believe that the cartoon characters were singing Sugar Sugar?:rolleyes:

Enjoyed your podcast Jim. There may have been a few errors in your Supreme knowledge, but your point still got accross.

[luke]

Who were also on the Beatles tracks-the Dave Clark 5? the Blossoms?

[bankhousedave]

And where would Whistling Jack Smith have been without the Rolling Stones? Come to think of it, where is he anyway?

[selinasian]

In the early 60s most of the backing vocals were done by session singers such as the Mike Sammes Singers. Artists such as Dusty, Madeline etc thought they sounded to stiff and square for their 'American-derived' music so they got together and often sang back-up for each other. Members of this 'cabal' included Dusty Springfield, Madeline Bell, Kiki Dee, Doris Troy and Lesley Duncan.

[bankhousedave]

You're right, Selinasian. Tragically, the great Lesley Duncan is no longer with us.

[selinasian]

You're right, Selinasian. Tragically, the great Lesley Duncan is no longer with us.

Yeah, bankhousedave! And, after listening to Madeline's albums, Doris's Apple stuff and Kiki's Fontana stuff from the 1960s I'm amazed that none of these fabulous vocalists were hitting the UK charts whilst Cilla and Sandie were! Even Lulu, another great vocalist, wasn't hitting the same heights.

[mannyc]

I do remember Mary Wilson saying in her book, that her and Flo were on the Supremes recordings up until 1967, and that Flo had missed singing on "You Can't Hurry Love". I don't know how all this is coming out. We need Mary to kind of set the record on this. After all, she was there.

[Jimi LaLumia]

luv to hear what Mary Wilson has to say about the revelations...
Diana Ross often said that she did 'all the work' and now I understand what she meant;
did she think that WE knew when she was saying these things?
I mean, it really WAS the Andrew Sisters on the records: I doubt that anyone pretended to be TLC on the records, or En Vogue for that matter..and so on and so on..

[jobeterob]

I can't imagine we'll hear anything from Diana.

I wonder if the Supremes even knew what was going on, or Diana. It wasn't like the Supremes didn't sing on the songs at all............because they obviously cut versions of songs like Stop in the Name of Love; they just didn't get released as the single. And You Can't Hurry Love has been out there for years as not having Florence Ballard on it; and it never sounded in concert like it sounded on the 45.

It doesn't change too much ~ only to the hardcore fans ~ and to most of them it's just "of interest". I gather there a few that can't accept it and I think that was expected.

[skooldem1]

luv to hear what Mary Wilson has to say about the revelations...
Diana Ross often said that she did 'all the work' and now I understand what she meant;
did she think that WE knew when she was saying these things?
I mean, it really WAS the Andrew Sisters on the records: I doubt that anyone pretended to be TLC on the records, or En Vogue for that matter..and so on and so on..


I have always felt- without really knowing why, that songs released by groups [[especially in the 90's) were nothing more than the lead vocal with session singers filling out or replacing the background singers. That goes for songs by Jodeci, B2M, Escape, and many of the female groups etc. Why? Because when they sang live the backgrounds NEVER sounded like the record.

Like I have said before. Diana Ross isn't as crazy as some wanted to paint her that night when she was interviewed by Barbara Walters. She knew exactly what she was saying when she said "Mary is out there singing MY songs". Some people can't deal with the truth.

[captainjames]

Rob
Excellent point and dead on~~I really don't think the girls really knew most of the time. However, I think Flo caught on after awhile and confronted Motown about them being on the records.


I can't imagine we'll hear anything from Diana.

I wonder if the Supremes even knew what was going on, or Diana. It wasn't like the Supremes didn't sing on the songs at all............because they obviously cut versions of songs like Stop in the Name of Love; they just didn't get released as the single. And You Can't Hurry Love has been out there for years as not having Florence Ballard on it; and it never sounded in concert like it sounded on the 45.

It doesn't change too much ~ only to the hardcore fans ~ and to most of them it's just "of interest". I gather there a few that can't accept it and I think that was expected.

[captainjames]

Skooldem1
I knew what she meant but I ran for cover because I said then, "Oh Heck she is about to tell some of those truths that were in her book that she had second thoughts about releasing."


I have always felt- without really knowing why, that songs released by groups [[especially in the 90's) were nothing more than the lead vocal with session singers filling out or replacing the background singers. That goes for songs by Jodeci, B2M, Escape, and many of the female groups etc. Why? Because when they sang live the backgrounds NEVER sounded like the record.

Like I have said before. Diana Ross isn't as crazy as some wanted to paint her that night when she was interviewed by Barbara Walters. She knew exactly what she was saying when she said "Mary is out there singing MY songs". Some people can't deal with the truth.

[Jimi LaLumia]

how could they NOT know?...everyone knows what their own voice sounds like..
Ross kept the code of silence all this time so as to not 'out' the girls as not really being what the public thought they were,and all the other noise is probably what made her the 'crazy diva' we have all come to know[[and in most cases, LOVE!)
Florence , in this regard, now looks ridiculous with some of her antics and statements, but she was probably put off by the sham ,the fraud of the 'group' concept that Gordy didn't want to let go of until the time was right, even though, by 1965, they were really a group in our minds only...

[Jimi LaLumia]

by the way, what is the name of the Andantes book? I MUST get a copy now, after all this...

[captainjames]

I believe it is called "Motown From The Background" with Vicki Wright
I will check later tonight to make sure that is the right title.

[Jimi LaLumia]

I'll look on Amazon; thanks..

[franjoy56]

As far as i am concerned Diana Mary & Flo are on the bulk of the records from 1961 to 1967 and these are the foundation of the Suupremes, what happened in between is anyone's guess. The specialty albums such as Sam Cooke, A Bit of Liverpool, CWP, rogers and Hart, Hit LP's s A go ago HDH, WDOLG, More Hits the double Greatest HIts package are chock full of Diana Mary And Flo, so throw the Andantes in all you want it still comes up DMF.

[robbert]

Interesting story by Jimi about the 70's Supremes performing on a Rock 'n' Roll Revival festival or something in Madison Square Garden... they started out with a song from their newest album High Energy [[1976) and subsequently did another THREE songs from that album... hence the crowd booed them off the stage.
Lesson, according to Jimi: first you should give your audience what they want [[= what they know), then squeeze in your new material.

Was Susaye already in the group at that Garden gig? Does she remember that performance?

[Jimi LaLumia]

it was a vERRRRY upsetting night for fans of the 70's Supremes..as I recall, shortly after this incident is when Mary Wilson decided to call it a day...I think the group felt the need to do what Motown wasn't really doing, which was to push the new material... a most unpleasant evening...

[marv2]

luv to hear what Mary Wilson has to say about the revelations...
Diana Ross often said that she did 'all the work' and now I understand what she meant;
did she think that WE knew when she was saying these things?
I mean, it really WAS the Andrew Sisters on the records: I doubt that anyone pretended to be TLC on the records, or En Vogue for that matter..and so on and so on..


Jimi, as a fellow Long Guylander [[and former Detroiter), I feel a responsibility to tell you that you got it wrong and a lot of what has discussed on this side of the forum regarding this subject matter has been overly exaggerated. Mary Wilson, Florence and Diana Ross are on the overwhelmingly majority of all those recordings you bought from the sixties. Diana Ross is lying if she EVER says publicly that she did all of the work. That is more bullshit than the daily recommended allowances!

Marv

[jobeterob]

Jimi: did you actually go to the show?

I'm sure it would have been very unpleasant for the group. Sadly, they were done by then and probably Pedro had them brainwashed into thinking they were going to return to the top 40.

They should have been prepped for that crowd. You are probably right in saying they thought they had an opportunity to show a large crowd their new work; but that crowd wasn't interested in new songs, especially nothing disco like.

[Jimi LaLumia]

My cousin was there, and told me all about it the next day; I flipped out, I was a loyal 70's Supremes fan, and I knew that this incident certainly wasn't going to be helpful,although these days, all the hoopla might have worked in their favor, publicity wise..but back then, not so much..

[jobeterob]

Did they finish the set or just leave?

I wonder if they gave any thought to doing Baby Love or Stop in the Name of Love? The crowd would likely have turned.

[jeff9nyc]

I was there at Madison Square Garden. It was a night I will never forget. All the fans that were there couldn't believe what was going on. I must add that the Supremes' fans were the minority of the audience. The Oldie show they were booked at had it's own dedicated audience. The crowd wasn't really on their side from the moment they stepped on the stage since they had been kept waiting for about a half hour while the stage was set for the Supremes and their band. The announcer kept pleading with people to stay...not to leave...that they had never booked an act this big before and they were in for a real treat. I will say that I never really loved any of the MSS performances on TV. To my eye, if they were lip-singing they never quite got it right, they always looked like they were about to crash into each other and need more rehearsal. If they were singing live, they never quite blended to my ear. And before anyone bites my head off, I am a HUGE Supremes fan! All that said, when I heard them live at Madison Square Garden I finally got it! They sounded AMAZING! Susaye's voice had such a gorgeous, trained, almost operatic quality, Scherrie's voice was so powerful and clear as a bell, and Mary's sound just seemed to pull it all together. Vocally, they were STUNNING! But the audience came to hear the hits and got very upset when they did some of their "disco" numbers. Susaye worked "He Ain't Heavy He's My Brother," for all it was worth [[I believe that was the 3rd or 4th song) as people just started booing and walking out. At the end of her flawless version Mary just said, "OK, OK this is what you came for," and they broke into a medley of the 60's hits. At that point it was way too late. The fan had all rushed down to the stage but the rest of the Garden was pretty empty. My friend and I waited for the Supremes at the stage door, and as they walked to 7th Ave to hail their own cab, Mary was not happy to say the least and Scherrie and Susaye were conpletely silent. I can only imagine the conversation back at the hotel!

[Jimi LaLumia]

I was told they did the 'hits medley' [[five songs in five minutes) further into the set, but it was too late, the crowd had the torches and pitch forks by then..and of course, a 'medley' was not what oldies fans show up for..
the radio commercial had Ross singing "Baby Love"...just a little misleading

[jeff9nyc]

I was told they did the 'hits medley' [[five songs in five minutes) further into the set, but it was too late, the crowd had the torches and pitch forks by then..and of course, a 'medley' was not what oldies fans show up for..
the radio commercial had Ross singing "Baby Love"...just a little misleading

You are right. Yup...exactly what I said above. And, they were off that stage as soon as that medley was over. It was a strange night for fans to say the least. Watching the Supremes out on 7th Ave. hailing their own cab capped a mind-blowing evening.

[jobeterob]

It seems to me that a Supreme on Midnight Johnny's show talked about this show and that it was an unpleasant experience. I wonder if it was their last show in the USA? It's hard to imagine they would have been so unaware of the kind of performance that was expected of them.

[marv2]

It seems to me that a Supreme on Midnight Johnny's show talked about this show and that it was an unpleasant experience. I wonder if it was their last show in the USA? It's hard to imagine they would have been so unaware of the kind of performance that was expected of them.

Thank God we didn't have the internet then unlike in 2008 when Diana Ross was booed off the stage by nearly 60,000 angry Jamaicans at the Air Jamaica Jazz Festival. Videos of that terrible event were posted immediately to Youtube and TMZ. Hundreds of very negative comments directed at Diana were posted on TMZ by Jamaicans that felt she had ripped them off. It's hard to imagine that a seasoned pro like Miss Ross did not anticipate the anger of concert goers when she demanded that the Jumbotron moniters be turned off during her performance. Bad move I say.

[lakedistrictlad1]

I have been reading all this with great sadness. How on earth could Berry Gordy allow his [[what was) number one group to be booed at? It just shows how far removed he was from his music business in the late 70's. That and the fact that, to him, it always was ALL ABOUT Miss Ross.
The 70's Supremes didn't deserve their final chapter. Imagine the Beatles being booed? It's unthinkable.

[milven]

My impression is that Pedro was responsible for the group by then under the Supremes Inc setup. Whoever booked them there was stupid - unless they had conceded that the group had sunk to an oldies act. Since they had a new album out, they were still relevant and should not have been booked as an oldies act. The Supremes should certainly not have been booked there. It's possible that even if they sang the 60's hits they may have been booed. Other oldies groups tried to stop time and only hired replacement singers that sounded like the original singers. But the Supremes were an evolving group whose sound changed as time moved. We as fans even gave them a new name. Back then we called them THE NEW SUPREMES. I think they still would have been booed is THE NEW SUPRMES came out and tried to sing BABY LOVE.

[detmotownguy]

I have always felt- without really knowing why, that songs released by groups [[especially in the 90's) were nothing more than the lead vocal with session singers filling out or replacing the background singers. That goes for songs by Jodeci, B2M, Escape, and many of the female groups etc. Why? Because when they sang live the backgrounds NEVER sounded like the record.

Like I have said before. Diana Ross isn't as crazy as some wanted to paint her that night when she was interviewed by Barbara Walters. She knew exactly what she was saying when she said "Mary is out there singing MY songs". Some people can't deal with the truth.

Were they released as Diana Ross songs or The Supremes? Hum

[marybrewster]

Such a shame that the Andantes sang on all of these million sellers, and were only paid as session singers.

I wonder if Mary shares her royalty checks, LOLz.

[marybrewster]

Wasn't Ricky Nelson booed at Madison Square Garden? NY must be a tough crowd.

[jobeterob]

Yes, Ricky Nelson wrote Garden Party about a similar incident, didn't he?

I wonder if Motown paid Florence and Mary and Cindy royalties when they weren't on the released records? Sounds like a question that might be asked now if it wasnt before. But maybe they've been through all of this years ago with accountants and lawyers and we didn't realize it.

[marv2]

My impression is that Pedro was responsible for the group by then under the Supremes Inc setup. Whoever booked them there was stupid - unless they had conceded that the group had sunk to an oldies act. Since they had a new album out, they were still relevant and should not have been booked as an oldies act. The Supremes should certainly not have been booked there. It's possible that even if they sang the 60's hits they may have been booed. Other oldies groups tried to stop time and only hired replacement singers that sounded like the original singers. But the Supremes were an evolving group whose sound changed as time moved. We as fans even gave them a new name. Back then we called them THE NEW SUPREMES. I think they still would have been booed is THE NEW SUPRMES came out and tried to sing BABY LOVE.

Good points Milven. It made about as much sense as The Supremes or the Temptations on a Country & Western concert bill! We told them at the time that it was a mistake and not to do it. However, I understand their wanting to take advantage of playing before a such a large crowd of 20,000 to promote their newer music. Still it was simply great group, music.....wrong audience.

[marv2]

Were they released as Diana Ross songs or The Supremes? Hum

Nope, what Diana Ross did that night when she said that was show the World her true colors along with lying about the songs Mary sings being HER songs! Some people cannot tell the Emperor that he has no clothes on.....I can!

[marv2]

Wasn't Ricky Nelson booed at Madison Square Garden? NY must be a tough crowd.

Yes he was booed there. The type of crowds they use to get for Richard Nader's oldies shows were a bunch of redneck type bikers out of Jersey!

[marv2]

Yes, Ricky Nelson wrote Garden Party about a similar incident, didn't he?

I wonder if Motown paid Florence and Mary and Cindy royalties when they weren't on the released records? Sounds like a question that might be asked now if it wasnt before. But maybe they've been through all of this years ago with accountants and lawyers and we didn't realize it.

As I've said three times recently on this forum, according to Mary's contract [[and I would assume Florence's) Motown could not record "The Supremes" without them or replace them onstage if they were available to record or perform. This was brought out in the 1977 lawsuit Mary lodged against Motown .

[marv2]

Such a shame that the Andantes sang on all of these million sellers, and were only paid as session singers.

I wonder if Mary shares her royalty checks, LOLz.

all of what million sellers? Yeah Mary shares her royalty checks.....with ME! Yeah right! LOL!!!

[smark21]

Another reason why the Supremes should never have taken that Rock Oldies gig: They had left rock and roll behind the more they did a Copa/Las Vegas act from the mid 60's onward.

[marv2]

Another reason why the Supremes should never have taken that Rock Oldies gig: They had left rock and roll behind the more they did a Copa/Las Vegas act from the mid 60's onward.


Excellent point. By 1977, the Supremes were a very established MOR act , as well as a still current Pop/R&B/Disco act at that time.

[detmotownguy]

Nope, what Diana Ross did that night when she said that was show the World her true colors along with lying about the songs Mary sings being HER songs! Some people cannot tell the Emperor that he has no clothes on.....I can!

I suppose that singing I Will Survive for over 15 years does not matter. Is that not Gloria Gaynor's signature and intial hit?

[jobeterob]

And I Will Survive is so popular in concert; it gets the biggest reaction along with Stop in the Name of Love and Baby Love. But is sure is heavy on that background. If there was ever a Supremes reunion that would be a real opportunity to have a real jam session that was fun.

[jillfoster]

I suppose that singing I Will Survive for over 15 years does not matter. Is that not Gloria Gaynor's signature and intial hit?

Detmotownguy... "I Will Survive" is certainly Gloria's signature hit, but not her initial hit. "Never Can Say Goodbye" was her first big hit. Then "Casanova Brown" hit number on on the disco chart, then she had "I Will Survive". That song gets such a big reaction because it was one of the top 5 biggest hits of the 70's. It gets that same reaction whether Diana or Gloria is singing it.

[Jimi LaLumia]

and Gloria got her first big hit by doing a cover version of Motown's "Never Can Say Goodbye", which was originally meant for the 70's Supremes[[which is why Jean Terrell brought the song to Motown in the first place) but wound up with the Jackson 5;
so one good cover version deserves another...

[marv2]

and Gloria got her first big hit by doing a cover version of Motown's "Never Can Say Goodbye", which was originally meant for the 70's Supremes[[which is why Jean Terrell brought the song to Motown in the first place) but wound up with the Jackson 5;
so one good cover version deserves another...

...and Diane got her first big hit by doing a cover version of Marvin Gaye and Tammi Terrell's "Ain't No Mountain High Enough"! Marvin and Tammi's was the best version because they did the majority of the singing on their record......

[floyjoy678]

Funny you bring that up Marv I was just thinking recently of Diana's version "Ain't Mountain" and how it took me years to appreciate it, I always thought it was a weird version in my younger days. I was in high school during the 90s and I remember they played her version at the prom and I heard one of my friends saying "What the hell kind of song is this?".