You Keep Me Hangin On Acapella Who is singing?

[luke]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c709LVhiF0Q&feature=related Im sure Im probably wrong and it's really Louvain, Jackie and Julia and Maxine but I distinctly hear Flo, Mary and Diana. Anyone else?

[jobeterob]

Well anything is possible, but I think the only background voice I know that I hear is Florence Ballard and on the Motown Story version of this song, she clearly sings.

This version seems to have two or more layers of Diana singing the lead.

Several years ago, Andy told me not to ask questions that I might not like the answer to [[unless I was prepared for the answer) and as we've seen recently, he was right ~ sometimes the answer isn't one we are prepared for.

[redlabs]

i hear the original supremes[dmf]

[jeff9nyc]

It's very clearly Mary and Florenece. Everyone can breathe a sigh of relief! :-)

[luke]

One record at a time! I was being a bit tongue and cheek.

[franjoy56]

It is clearly Mary and especially Flo on the background, and it sounds like Flo is dominating the lead from the background at the bridge of the song. Amazing
how this woman kept it together through all the turmoil during 66 & 67.

[marv2]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c709LVhiF0Q&feature=related Im sure Im probably wrong and it's really Louvain, Jackie and Julia and Maxine but I distinctly hear Flo, Mary and Diana. Anyone else?

I 'm getting old, but it still sounds like it's Florence Ballard, Mary Wilson and Diane Ross singing in a group they called The Supremes back in the 60's.

[luke]

Marv--I think I may hear Syreeta or Jackie Ross doing lead or filling out Diana's vocals? She just wanted to do her nails in the studio that day.

[ejluther]

This version seems to have two or more layers of Diana singing the lead.
I thought her lead was always double-tracked on YKMHO - is that not the case?

So what's the story on THE MOTOWN STORY version? This version is quite different than others I've heard with the more pronounced backgrounds [[obviously) - is it available on other releases?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUg2kYyAE5c

[carlo]

I hear Shantel in there too. She's the other voice singing with Diana. :p

[blueskies]

I hear Shantel in there too. She's the other voice singing with Diana. :p


OK.............now the GREAT MYSTERY has been solved on who has been singing on all these Supremes recordings. Forget the Andantes.....it's been Shantel all along.

[arrr&bee]

Sounds like the supremes to me too.

[ejluther]

Found THE MOTOWN STORY collection - any thoughts on it?
http://www.amazon.com/Motown-Story-Sixties-Various-Artists/dp/B0000C5RPE/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

[jobeterob]

Background much more prominent than so many of the singles............and Florence and Diana did some of the best duets of Diana's career; and the juxtaposition of those two voices made for a great single.

By far the most popular mix to the fans.

[Sugarchilehoneybaby]

I hear Shantel in there too. She's the other voice singing with Diana. :p

I hear Pearlie Salters on handclaps!

[marv2]

Background much more prominent than so many of the singles............and Florence and Diana did some of the best duets of Diana's career; and the juxtaposition of those two voices made for a great single.

By far the most popular mix to the fans.

and it was Mary Wilson that held it all together with her unique ability to blend her voice in with the others.....

[marv2]

Marv--I think I may hear Syreeta or Jackie Ross doing lead or filling out Diana's vocals? She just wanted to do her nails in the studio that day.

I would have to vote for Syreeta only because she was signed to Motown while Jackie Ross was on Chess Records out of Chicago. I could be wrong, but I say it is Syreeta.

[carlo]

I hear Pearlie Salters on handclaps!

lol. I also hear Tangela doing the foot stomps. Here we thought it was Benny Benjamin's bass drum.

[jobeterob]

From More Hits Extended Edition:

By mid 1965 as Motown expanded to 8 track recording, the Motown session logs became more advanced. Tracks prior to this time have far less information which is why some annotations on this collection are more complete than others, depending on their recording date. The Andantes, Motown's in house background vocalists, were known for adding the "sweetening" to many Motown songs. In some cases they do just that and in others, they substitute for the Supremes, a practice not uncommon for any Motown group. Fans with a keen ear may hear them in places they never thought to listen.

Produced by Andrew Skurow and George Solomon; Executive Producer Harry Weinger; Thank you to Keith Hughes, Chris Jenner, John Lester, Paul Nixon, Jim Saphin and J. Randy Tarraborelli.

[luke]

Now Marv et al I think one of the Funk Bros who had been secretly playing on a Chess session in Chicago snuck Jackie Ross in cause Diana was in a mood and thats how Flo got that lead line. Diana was in the can at the time, upset that Mary wore higher heels than her. That way they can say Miss[[Jackie) Ross sang on it too! Shantel recently revealed she was also an Andante so I assume she was there too.

[floyjoy678]

You Keep Me Hanging On is practically a duet between Diana and Florence just like how Where Did Our Love Go is like a duet between Diana and Mary. Though Mary did have a good ability to blend in with other people, to me it was Florence and Diana who had the best blend out of all the Supremes. They both had very similar distinct, whiny/nasally voices. When I first heard their version of I Saw Him Standing There I thought it was Diana on the high harmony till I listened to it a 2nd time and realized it was Florence.

[jobeterob]

The Motown practice of putting the Andantes here there and everywhere and occasionally substituting them totally especially for the Marvelettes and Supremes and Vandellas makes it fun for the fans to try and listen, pick out and learn the subtleties of the voices. It's only a negative for people that want to look for negative all the time.

It was a novel idea to me that Mary Wilson might have provided the blend between the more distinctive Ross and Ballard voices but I think it likely is accurate. Without it, that blend may have been far less appealing.

While I love the Andantes and think they had a historic part in the Motown story [[and a wonderful spokesperson in Louvain) and think it is mean spirited to pick on them over their backgrounds replacing group members, I also think their backgrounds were much better with the Four Tops than they were with Diana Ross or Martha Reeves. Florence and Mary were alot better with Diana Ross than the Andantes were.

Can someone comment on whether or not there are Andantes on The Hunter Gets Captured by the Game or Don't Mess With Bill or My Baby Must Be A Magician or Playboy?

[chidrummer]

To these ears, quite simply a double tracked Diana; Mary & Flo probably on a single mike doing the BGV's.

Oh, and Oswald was the lone gunman. It's been proven.

[marv2]

Now Marv et al I think one of the Funk Bros who had been secretly playing on a Chess session in Chicago snuck Jackie Ross in cause Diana was in a mood and thats how Flo got that lead line. Diana was in the can at the time, upset that Mary wore higher heels than her. That way they can say Miss[[Jackie) Ross sang on it too! Shantel recently revealed she was also an Andante so I assume she was there too.

Now it is all making sense to me Luke! Diana would sing in the toilet down in the studio while Mary and Florence sang in a sound booth. I heard Jackie Ross is the cousin of one of the Funk Bros that use to moonlight in Chicago. Well I'll be damned! Shantel Baker was one of the Andantes too? I guess that is why after all these years she is stepping up to reclaim her legacy after being on all those recordings. Learn something new everyday!

[marv2]

To these ears, quite simply a double tracked Diana; Mary & Flo probably on a single mike doing the BGV's.

Oh, and Oswald was the lone gunman. It's been proven.


Hehehehehehehe.......! All three of the Supremes had very distinctive voices. Just listen to "A Breathtaking Guy" to see what I mean. Amazingly talented trio!

[Sugarchilehoneybaby]

lol. I also hear Tangela doing the foot stomps. Here we thought it was Benny Benjamin's bass drum.

LOL! Thakfully, Lumpy and Dumpy farting was edited out of the mix.

[arrr&bee]

the motown practice of putting the andantes here there and everywhere and occasionally substituting them totally especially for the marvelettes and supremes and vandellas makes it fun for the fans to try and listen, pick out and learn the subtleties of the voices. It's only a negative for people that want to look for negative all the time.

It was a novel idea to me that mary wilson might have provided the blend between the more distinctive ross and ballard voices but i think it likely is accurate. Without it, that blend may have been far less appealing.

While i love the andantes and think they had a historic part in the motown story [[and a wonderful spokesperson in louvain) and think it is mean spirited to pick on them over their backgrounds replacing group members, i also think their backgrounds were much better with the four tops than they were with diana ross or martha reeves. Florence and mary were alot better with diana ross than the andantes were.

Can someone comment on whether or not there are andantes on the hunter gets captured by the game or don't mess with bill or my baby must be a magician or playboy?if you have the original version of[the hunter]listen to the fadeout and you'll know it the andantes[i love the marvelettes,but their harmony wasn't that good!]

[BobC]

I totally agree that Mary held the whole thing together--at least in the earlier days. Mary may not have had the others' range, but her voice was very warm and took the edge off Florence's sometimes shrill, higher voice. It was a good match. I really liked how they all sounded on the C&W album--and thought Mary blew everybody out of the water on "Sunset." When Diana comes in it's jolting and abrasive IMO. They should have given Mary the whole song. Don't get me wrong, I think DR is a great singer but in the early days her voice could be pretty piercing, and not in a good way. Flo's too.

[luke]

I agree though I never found Flo's shrill-Aint thay Good News is purely soulful to me. Love her high sound on Let Me Go the Right Way. I find Silent Night beautiful. Goin Out Of My Head also a lovely performance.

[smark21]

I prefer Mary's voice as a counterpoint to Diana's as they have contrasting voices. Flo had her moments, but in some of the live clips I've seen on youtube, Flo can sometime sound gravelly, or she's not blending well with Mary, or she's engaging in mindless volume, which might please those who think good singing means singing loud. Mary and Cindy were the best backing combination of The Supremes IMO, both vocally and visually as Cindy could execute the choreography with greater competence than Flo could.

[floyjoy678]

I do agree with Cindy being better with the choreography and it made her and Mary look in synch with each other as opposed to where Flo it seems was always looking over at Mary to make sure she was doing the right thing or she was messing up the dance steps and the choreography in the DMF days was not that complicated except for maybe Come See About Me [[which on that Shindig performance both Diana and Flo mess up, Mary was the only one who got it right the whole way through).

[jobeterob]

Floy could you post the Shindig performance you mention so we can see.

I know Flo messed up the Millie Rose and Mame performance on Ed Sullivan.

[floyjoy678]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tu-PB1N7f38

[luke]

Whers the mess up -around 221? Mary could have been a professional dancer! I like FLo's style. One writer wrote she never could get fully into the total Supremes style and she would sometimes sort of just hold back and wink at it all! Actually I have heard that Marlene Barrow's feet were eventually filmed and the film edited wtih Flo's feet out and Marlenes in !!

[skooldem1]

Has it ever been determined which TV special/appearance the Andantes sang behind the curtain?

[BobC]

I didn't think Flo w always sounded shrill, just occasionally--DR too.

[selinasian]

Actually I have heard that Marlene Barrow's feet were eventually filmed and the film edited wtih Flo's feet out and Marlenes in !!

LOLOLOL!!!!!!
Poor Flo!

[BobC]

Skool--is that true?

[skooldem1]

I don't have their book, but I recall someone in this group that mentioned that in the book they say they were singing "behind the curtain" for a TV appearance. With all this talk recently about them singing backup for Diana, it made me wonder if any more details came out regarding the "curtain". I asked this in a separate thread but there were only a few replies and no one seemed to recall the story. Can someone verify if this is true, and if so, which appearance was it?

[blueskies]

Has it ever been determined which TV special/appearance the Andantes sang behind the curtain?

Wow.....seems like a lot of 'smoke and mirrors' went down with all the who was singing and who wasn't.

[thisoldheart]

Whers the mess up -around 221? Mary could have been a professional dancer! I like FLo's style. One writer wrote she never could get fully into the total Supremes style and she would sometimes sort of just hold back and wink at it all! Actually I have heard that Marlene Barrow's feet were eventually filmed and the film edited wtih Flo's feet out and Marlenes in !!
have always felt without an ounce of proof that florence ballard saw though all the sequined gown and overly stylized and too, too feminine dance bit, and just had fun with the sheer ridiculousness of it all. i like that earthy gal, if, in fact, i'm anywhere near correct!

[captainjames]

and Andy would be correct therefore I quit asking.


Well anything is possible, but I think the only background voice I know that I hear is Florence Ballard and on the Motown Story version of this song, she clearly sings.

This version seems to have two or more layers of Diana singing the lead.

Several years ago, Andy told me not to ask questions that I might not like the answer to [[unless I was prepared for the answer) and as we've seen recently, he was right ~ sometimes the answer isn't one we are prepared for.

[jobeterob]

The Skooldem story might be in the Marlene Barrow section of the Andantes book..................where she says that she sang on You Can't Hurry Love in place of Flo.

[marv2]

I do agree with Cindy being better with the choreography and it made her and Mary look in synch with each other as opposed to where Flo it seems was always looking over at Mary to make sure she was doing the right thing or she was messing up the dance steps and the choreography in the DMF days was not that complicated except for maybe Come See About Me [[which on that Shindig performance both Diana and Flo mess up, Mary was the only one who got it right the whole way through).

I believe Mary was the best dancer in the group.

[marv2]

The Skooldem story might be in the Marlene Barrow section of the Andantes book..................where she says that she sang on You Can't Hurry Love in place of Flo.

I don't believe Marlene. I believe it is Flo with Mary and Diane on that record .

[marv2]

Whers the mess up -around 221? Mary could have been a professional dancer! I like FLo's style. One writer wrote she never could get fully into the total Supremes style and she would sometimes sort of just hold back and wink at it all! Actually I have heard that Marlene Barrow's feet were eventually filmed and the film edited wtih Flo's feet out and Marlenes in !!

Ok, now this is really funny stuff here! LOL! oh LOL!!!

[bradsupremes]

I don't believe Marlene. I believe it is Flo with Mary and Diane on that record .

Well, it's been stated that "You Can't Hurry Love" is Diana, Mary and Marlene. Why would Marlene make up some lie without any support? The evidence is right on the record and the other songs recorded that day support Marlene's claim as well.

[ejluther]

and the other songs recorded that day support Marlene's claim as well.
What records are those? And I don't know much about that story - was Flo sick or something?

[soulballad]

I dont believe these people intentionally lie but as time goes on and as we age memories get blurred. The next time Marlene is interviewed she might say it was a different song all together. This is in no way a dis to her or the Andantes.I think Louvaine claims that she sang on Someday We'll Be Together" etc,etc. They all recorded so much and worked together so often that it's all a blur, unless they kept a journal of each session it's difficult to know for sure. Even in the cases where they are 100% sure they recorded something the producers might have made some changes. According to HDH -they always used the actual Supremes on their productions [[this could mean the Andantes were mixed in sometimes) but never the less the actual Supremes were there. It seems other producers [[especially starting around 1966) where not as concerned about who sang on what.

[marv2]

Well, it's been stated that "You Can't Hurry Love" is Diana, Mary and Marlene. Why would Marlene make up some lie without any support? The evidence is right on the record and the other songs recorded that day support Marlene's claim as well.

I don't care what she says. They always did multiple takes and recordings at Motown over an extended time period. She also sang on a lot of what were essentially demos without realizing it.

[marv2]

What records are those? And I don't know much about that story - was Flo sick or something?

If she [[Florence) was sick, it was not for very long. I wished she were here to tell what really went on. I've heard from others that were there at the time.

[marv2]

I dont believe these people intentionally lie but as time goes on and as we age memories get blurred. The next time Marlene is interviewed she might say it was a different song all together. This is in no way a dis to her or the Andantes.I think Louvaine claims that she sang on Someday We'll Be Together" etc,etc. They all recorded so much and worked together so often that it's all a blur, unless they kept a journal of each session it's difficult to know for sure. Even in the cases where they are 100% sure they recorded something the producers might have made some changes. According to HDH -they always used the actual Supremes on their productions [[this could mean the Andantes were mixed in sometimes) but never the less the actual Supremes were there. It seems other producers [[especially starting around 1966) where not as concerned about who sang on what.



Soulballad, so far you have the best understanding/response to this whole situation. For others, I was going to say, ask Eddie Holland but even he doesn't remember everything.

[bradsupremes]

What records are those? And I don't know much about that story - was Flo sick or something?

The background vocals for "You Can't Hurry Love," "Misery Makes Its Home In My Heart," and "Come On And See Me" were recorded on July 5, 1966. The Andantes were dubbed onto "Come On And See Me" at a later date. And I believe it's Mary and Marlene on "Reflections."

According to Marlene Barrow: "Holland-Dozier-Holland took me aside quietly and asked me to come into the studio and sing, so I did. That is me and Mary on 'You Can't Hurry Love.' There are a few others on which I sing."

[marv2]

The background vocals for "You Can't Hurry Love," "Misery Makes Its Home In My Heart," and "Come On And See Me" were recorded on July 5, 1966. The Andantes were dubbed onto "Come On And See Me" at a later date. And I believe it's Mary and Marlene on "Reflections."

According to Marlene Barrow: "Holland-Dozier-Holland took me aside quietly and asked me to come into the studio and sing, so I did. That is me and Mary on 'You Can't Hurry Love.' There are a few others on which I sing."

That doesn't not mean a thing! She may not even know what she is talking about. She was told to come in a cut the rough demo. If they left her on the record, it was just to fill out the sound.

[bradsupremes]

I don't care what she says. They always did multiple takes and recordings at Motown over an extended time period. She also sang on a lot of what were essentially demos without realizing it.

Believe what you want. I'm not going to argue over something that has been proven on tape and by a lady who was actually in the studio singing the song.

[marv2]

Believe what you want. I'm not going to argue over something that has been proven on tape and by a lady who was actually in the studio singing the song.

Look, she didn't prove a thing! I still don't know what Marlene Barrow even sounds like all these 45 + years later.

[soulballad]

You can't always go by the dates in the books and booklets because we have all seen information change either because of error or because new info is found and sometimes I think the info is spin based on the writers wishful thinking. But since you're going by dates in books I'll thrown in some of my own regarding "Reflections"

The song was recorded March 2nd and May 9th 1967. Most likely the instrumental track was completed in March and then vocals added in May. In early May the ladies began rehearsal for the sullivan Happening and Millie/Rose/Mame number. On May 7 they performed the Happening and the Millie Medley on Sullivan. On May 8 they were back in Detroit preparing for the Copa and and doing some studio work. May 9th they did vocals for Reflections [[probably a few more songs). May 11th The Rogers & Hart special aired [[recorded a year earlier). May the 11th was also the open date for the Copa engagement which lasted until May 24th. All of that said I will say that without a doubt that it is Florence Ballard and Mary Wilson along with Diana Ross doing the vocals on Reflections.

It's sad that so much wrong information has been given over the internet [[some intentionally) that it has cast so much doubt on the true talent of the stars that we know and love. People realize if they keep saying something over and over and over it will catch on as truth with some and cast just enough doubt with others. I say this to the true SUPREME fans- most of what we got up to the depareture of Florence Ballard in 1967 was THE Supremes. Of course there were some exceptions [[there were exceptions in ALL groups) but it's not what some are trying to make it out to be. Out of the hundreds of recordings that the Supremes did for themselves and others , some still choose to give weight to the handful of songs that they might not have recorded. Amazing!

[jobeterob]

Marv, you are beating your head against a cement wall.

Brad is quoting you chapter and verse and you have this thing in your head that Mary Wilson might care about this; she doesn't and she's said so several times and asks people like you to stop being mean to Diana and her.

Marlene Barrow was there; your "feelings" on this are irrelevant. So are mine and Brads. But Marlene was there and that kind of evidence is irrefutable; she says she sang on those songs.

And go buy the Complete Singles; Andy says the Supremes background on Stop in the Name of Love wasn't released; the Andantes was.

And Andy is friends with Mary and she is the prime contributor to all of his Supremes work. He actually cares about Mary and all the other Supremes and they actually know him.

What's the big trouble in facing the insurmountable evidence?

If Mary Wilson doesn't care and is fine with it, can't you be? It does not change who she is one bit. She and Diana still get their royalties. They continue to be happy people.

[marv2]

You can't always go by the dates in the books and booklets because we have all seen information change either because of error or because new info is found and sometimes I think the info is spin based on the writers wishful thinking. But since you're going by dates in books I'll thrown in some of my own regarding "Reflections"

The song was recorded March 2nd and May 9th 1967. Most likely the instrumental track was completed in March and then vocals added in May. In early May the ladies began rehearsal for the sullivan Happening and Millie/Rose/Mame number. On May 7 they performed the Happening and the Millie Medley on Sullivan. On May 8 they were back in Detroit preparing for the Copa and and doing some studio work. May 9th they did vocals for Reflections [[probably a few more songs). May 11th The Rogers & Hart special aired [[recorded a year earlier). May the 11th was also the open date for the Copa engagement which lasted until May 24th. All of that said I will say that without a doubt that it is Florence Ballard and Mary Wilson along with Diana Ross doing the vocals on Reflections.

It's sad that so much wrong information has been given over the internet [[some intentionally) that it has cast so much doubt on the true talent of the stars that we know and love. People realize if they keep saying something over and over and over it will catch on as truth with some and cast just enough doubt with others. I say this to the true SUPREME fans- most of what we got up to the depareture of Florence Ballard in 1967 was THE Supremes. Of course there were some exceptions [[there were exceptions in ALL groups) but it's not what some are trying to make it out to be. Out of the hundreds of recordings that the Supremes did for themselves and others , some still choose to give weight to the handful of songs that they might not have recorded. Amazing!

Amen and thank you Soulballad! This is why I question all these claims made by others, mostly fans on here that people like Marlene Barrow did the majority of the singing on the Supremes records when Eddie Holland, Lamont Dozier and Brian Holland all claimed that they always used the Supremes themselves on their productions! This massaging of history will never work. Jobeterob loves it because he wants Diane to have all of the credit and that ain't happening either! LOL! Too many people were there and involved at Motown during those years to allow the facts to be distorted now during the "Internet Age". Also, I have my own ears! Jobeterob, it was Mary Wilson, Diane Ross and Florence Ballard on the MAJORITY of all of those Supremes recordings.

[marv2]

Marv, you are beating your head against a cement wall.

Brad is quoting you chapter and verse and you have this thing in your head that Mary Wilson might care about this; she doesn't and she's said so several times and asks people like you to stop being mean to Diana and her.

Marlene Barrow was there; your "feelings" on this are irrelevant. So are mine and Brads. But Marlene was there and that kind of evidence is irrefutable; she says she sang on those songs.

And go buy the Complete Singles; Andy says the Supremes background on Stop in the Name of Love wasn't released; the Andantes was.

And Andy is friends with Mary and she is the prime contributor to all of his Supremes work. He actually cares about Mary and all the other Supremes and they actually know him.

What's the big trouble in facing the insurmountable evidence?

If Mary Wilson doesn't care and is fine with it, can't you be? It does not change who she is one bit. She and Diana still get their royalties. They continue to be happy people.

I am not beating my head [[or anything else for that matter hehehehehe) against any walls ok Pal? You really shouldn't attempt to read my mind, Mary Wilson's or anyone else's mind. Just stick to the folks up there in Vancouver because you do not know what you are talking about as usual. Brad can read me the Bible backwards and it not make me believe everything that is said or read in some books or over the internet. Ask me to stop being mean to who? You clearly don't know what you are talking about, who I am, or what my relationships are , so stick a sock in it! I say that respectfully.....

I do not care where Marlene Barrow was. I will say it again. I do not believe everything she has said because I know others that were also there that give conflicting accounts of what went on. She simply may not remember everything in detail from 45 -50 years ago. That's not a put down, it is just a fact of human nature!

Mary is my friend also......... I like Andy, Mary likes Andy, so what is your point?

There is no insurmountable evidence of what and of value to whom? What are you talking about? Is it because I have the balls to stand up and say that I do not believe Marlene Barrow? She cannot remember everything and that is a FACT!

Mary doesn't care , so why do I? Mary and I are two completely different people. Why is she even being brought into this? Why are you bringing her up for? I don't care about their royalties. I don't get any, nor does Marlene Barrow, nor does Florence Ballard's Estate.

[soulballad]

Most of the posters on these kinds of boards are just here to stir people up, or "prey on the weak", them there are some that are just misinformed and continue to spead the misinformation but there are also a few that really do try to rewrite history. If the music brings you joy then keep listening!

[marv2]

Most of the posters on these kinds of boards are just here to stir people up, or "prey on the weak", them there are some that are just misinformed and continue to spead the misinformation but there are also a few that really do try to rewrite history. If the music brings you joy then keep listening!

You definitely know the deal! Let the music play on and on........!

[luke]

Amen and well said Marv. I actually sang on many Supremes records too. Flo distinctly remembers singing on certain songs as reported in books, articles and on tape. But hey why should we believe her!! Cissy Houston and Darlene Love have said they cant remember half the songs they sang on but hey who are they. What an ANDANTE SAYS GOES!!

[marv2]

Amen and well said Marv. I actually sang on many Supremes records too. Flo distinctly remembers singing on certain songs as reported in books, articles and on tape. But hey why should we believe her!! Cissy Houston and Darlene Love have said they cant remember half the songs they sang on but hey who are they. What an ANDANTE SAYS GOES!!

Thanks Luke and I was just going to say that I thought I hear your voice on "Love Is Like An Itching in My Heart" among others but you beat me to it. Mary has also said that she sang on just about all of those records, but who is she? Just an Original Co-Founder of the Supremes. This group that is still talked about daily!

[144man]

I still have a basic problem. Some tracks were recut many times. Some acetates have multiple versions. So how does anyone but the producer or engineer know which version made the final cut unless there was a proper audit trail? So was there?

[smark21]

I still have a basic problem. Some tracks were recut many times. Some acetates have multiple versions. So how does anyone but the producer or engineer know which version made the final cut unless there was a proper audit trail? So was there?

Given that Motown wasn't affiliated with the RIAA and thus were never awarded official gold and platinum certifications, it's not far fetched to assume that maintaining audit ready files and records was not a priority at Motown. I know people are citing the 50th Anniversary liner notes regarding Andantes singing background on Stop with no Mary and Flo present, but yet the liner notes for the More Hits Expanded edition states that STop has Mary, Flo and the Andantes on it. So which version is true? What is the primary source used by each liner note writer to make their assertion? It would be interesting to have a professionally trained archivist perform an evaluation of the Motown historical archive and provide their assessment of the quality of their record keeping.

[luke]

Yes Marv-u have good ear!! I am on Love is Like an Itching in My Heart, Stop in the Name of Love-very crowded in that recording booth!!, The Composer and Nathan Jones[[all that multi tracking no one knew I was there as well as the Cookies and Mormon Tabernacle Choir. I cant reveal more yet--but am writing a book called Motown Myths--the supreme singer behind the songs.

[marv2]

Yes Marv-u have good ear!! I am on Love is Like an Itching in My Heart, Stop in the Name of Love-very crowded in that recording booth!!, The Composer and Nathan Jones[[all that multi tracking no one knew I was there as well as the Cookies and Mormon Tabernacle Choir. I cant reveal more yet--but am writing a book called Motown Myths--the supreme singer behind the songs.

Yeah? You admit to being on "The Composer"? Yuk! LOL! Well me and Robert Gordy and Ikey Yowpp are doing the fingersnaps on the beginning of Marvin Gaye's "Pride and Joy"! The Supremes were there but they did not use them.

[luke]

Well Marv I was savin it for my book but okay I will tell it. Cindy called me and said she and Mary were too embarassed to sing on the Composer so I did them a favor. Actually it was me, Raynoma, Chris Clark and Mavis Staples and Fats Domino. Love Ikey. Of course who would want to use those no hit Supremes. Yuk.

[jobeterob]

This guy probably qualifies as the historical expert many people listen to.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
12-27-2011, 01:20 AM #58 Motown Andy
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Posts 48 The Supremes story is a very complicated one, and when discussing who sang on which records, it is sensitive not only to the Supremes, but to the Andantes, and to the fans. What we report may be loved by many, and in some situations, may not be popular, but it is always important that we tell the truth. Our motivation is that of preserving the Supremes legacy, not diminishing it. If we report a kind word about one Supreme, Mary, Flo or Diana, it is often misconstrued as a slap to the other two ladies. On any project I work on, I can assure you that this is not, and will never be the case. I support them, and I love them, both professionally and personally.

There’s a recent thread about what songs are Tammi Terrell, and what songs are Valerie Simpson. The thread is long and the argument is interesting, but the truth can be found in the research, and in listening to the isolated vocals on the multi-tracks. However, the answers we could give, in the Tammi scenario, in the Supremes scenario, or in other artists scenarios may not be what fans want to hear. I’d rather tell the truth, for myself, and for an accurate history, than to be popular. And at the end of the day, all I can do is present the facts, even if they are conflicting, and if there is no clear answer, the listener can be the judge. Sometimes we have an answer, sometimes we don’t.

The Supremes/Andantes situation does exist, but it has absolutely been blown out of proportion. The Supremes background vocals by Mary and Flo, are on most of their records leading up to Flo’s departure. But there are some they are not on, pure and simple. Mary Wilson has acknowledged this, Florence Ballard in interviews acknowledged this, Diana Ross has acknowledged this.

As one learns the Supremes voices, it becomes more clear when you hear them. Once you learn the Andantes voices, the picture comes right into focus. And if you’re lucky enough to see the Motown session logs and tape cards, or get to hear the isolated vocals, there becomes no doubt when you hear the Supremes, the Andantes, or both.

When I am asked, I often give fans one example to listen to. There are many, but here is my favorite one. Listen to the Supremes version of “Fancy Passes” [[issued on Never-Before-Released-Masters and the same version is the bonus track version issued on There’s A Place For Us). Mary and Flo have a spoken passage. If you know their voices from this song, you’ll also know that when you hear the same spoken passage in the Barbara McNair version, that those girls are the Andantes. Listen to the same parts, learn the two different sets of vocals. Now go listen to other Supremes songs you may have in question.

Stop! In The Name Of Love is the latest hot topic, so I’ll acknowledge it here. Listen to the alternate from disc 2 of More Hits, also in a different mix on the box set. Now listen to the live versions on At The Copa, or the video from the Hollywood Palace. They are all consistent. Now listen to the released “hit” version. The voice you are hearing, is Jackie Hicks. Go back to McNair’s Fancy Passes, you’ll hear Jackie there. You’ll hear her on Run Run Run. But you’ll also hear her clearly on Ask The Lonely by the Four Tops, I Heard It Through The Grapevine by Marvin Gaye and dozens of other non-Supremes songs

I’m sure that regardless of what I could say, some will argue forever. I respect everyone’s opinions. But, it is what it is. More importantly, this is not the first time this information has been suggested, discussed or challenged. Nor will it be the last. I can only confirm what I know.

This does not, and will not tarnish the Supremes reputation as the greatest female group of all-time. The roads they paved for others must be acknowledged and respected. What they accomplished has never been duplicated.

I’ll save the discussion about every other Supremes song for another day. If they weren’t on a particular song, well, it is what it is. They’re still on literally hundreds of other songs. Mary Wilson is still singing these hits today, Diana Ross is still singing this hits today. Diana and Mary’s legacies separately, and together as the Supremes, with Florence [[and Cindy, respectfully) will last long after we’re all gone. I personally love them, they are incredible women. The people I work with love them too, as I know all of you do as well. I have nothing but love and respect for each of these ladies, for all nine of them actually, and will continue to support what they did, and continue to do. I hope you will also.

[bradsupremes]

And if anyone wants to know the speaking order of the Andantes on Barbara McNair's version of "Fancy Passes," here it is:

MARLENE: "That man is rare, Miss McNair."
LOUVAIN: "Did he buy you a mink?"
BARBARA MCNAIR: "Passion pink."
JACKIE: "And a cadi too?"
BARBARA MCNAIR: "Uh-huh, baby blue."
MARLENE: "You're speaking of..."
BARBARA MCNAIR: "My baby love"
JACKIE: "Your Romeo?"
BARBARA MCNAIR: "My daddy dough! And I love him a lot"
THE ANDANTES: "How much has he got?"

How do I know which voice belongs to who? It's been stated Jackie Hicks was the bottom voice of the group, so her voice sticks out in this. I've recognized Louvain Demps' voice from recent interviews she has given on youtube. That single outs Marlene Barrow. Also, Marlene Barrow sings the beginning of P.J.'s 1971 single "T.L.C. [[Tender Lovin' Care)."

[jobeterob]

People never want to challenge Andy, but they do want to forget what he says.

And Brad, you're moving into that Andy category; keep working at it. Maybe you'll end up taking over from him!

[Sugarchilehoneybaby]

That doesn't not mean a thing! She may not even know what she is talking about. She was told to come in a cut the rough demo. If they left her on the record, it was just to fill out the sound.

Were you there?

[marv2]

Well Marv I was savin it for my book but okay I will tell it. Cindy called me and said she and Mary were too embarassed to sing on the Composer so I did them a favor. Actually it was me, Raynoma, Chris Clark and Mavis Staples and Fats Domino. Love Ikey. Of course who would want to use those no hit Supremes. Yuk.

Not THE Fats Domino? Dang! While I was back home for Christmas, my mother started playing his greatest hits [[a senior moment to be sure, hehehehehe....) Even as talented as you, Miss Ray, Chrissy Clark and Mavis were, nothing could have saved that awful song! [[shame on you Smoke for that one LOL!). By the way Ikey is doing well in Toledo, Ohio these days. Thanks.

[marv2]

This guy probably qualifies as the historical expert many people listen to.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
12-27-2011, 01:20 AM #58 Motown Andy
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Posts 48 The Supremes story is a very complicated one, and when discussing who sang on which records, it is sensitive not only to the Supremes, but to the Andantes, and to the fans. What we report may be loved by many, and in some situations, may not be popular, but it is always important that we tell the truth. Our motivation is that of preserving the Supremes legacy, not diminishing it. If we report a kind word about one Supreme, Mary, Flo or Diana, it is often misconstrued as a slap to the other two ladies. On any project I work on, I can assure you that this is not, and will never be the case. I support them, and I love them, both professionally and personally.

There’s a recent thread about what songs are Tammi Terrell, and what songs are Valerie Simpson. The thread is long and the argument is interesting, but the truth can be found in the research, and in listening to the isolated vocals on the multi-tracks. However, the answers we could give, in the Tammi scenario, in the Supremes scenario, or in other artists scenarios may not be what fans want to hear. I’d rather tell the truth, for myself, and for an accurate history, than to be popular. And at the end of the day, all I can do is present the facts, even if they are conflicting, and if there is no clear answer, the listener can be the judge. Sometimes we have an answer, sometimes we don’t.

The Supremes/Andantes situation does exist, but it has absolutely been blown out of proportion. The Supremes background vocals by Mary and Flo, are on most of their records leading up to Flo’s departure. But there are some they are not on, pure and simple. Mary Wilson has acknowledged this, Florence Ballard in interviews acknowledged this, Diana Ross has acknowledged this.

As one learns the Supremes voices, it becomes more clear when you hear them. Once you learn the Andantes voices, the picture comes right into focus. And if you’re lucky enough to see the Motown session logs and tape cards, or get to hear the isolated vocals, there becomes no doubt when you hear the Supremes, the Andantes, or both.

When I am asked, I often give fans one example to listen to. There are many, but here is my favorite one. Listen to the Supremes version of “Fancy Passes” [[issued on Never-Before-Released-Masters and the same version is the bonus track version issued on There’s A Place For Us). Mary and Flo have a spoken passage. If you know their voices from this song, you’ll also know that when you hear the same spoken passage in the Barbara McNair version, that those girls are the Andantes. Listen to the same parts, learn the two different sets of vocals. Now go listen to other Supremes songs you may have in question.

Stop! In The Name Of Love is the latest hot topic, so I’ll acknowledge it here. Listen to the alternate from disc 2 of More Hits, also in a different mix on the box set. Now listen to the live versions on At The Copa, or the video from the Hollywood Palace. They are all consistent. Now listen to the released “hit” version. The voice you are hearing, is Jackie Hicks. Go back to McNair’s Fancy Passes, you’ll hear Jackie there. You’ll hear her on Run Run Run. But you’ll also hear her clearly on Ask The Lonely by the Four Tops, I Heard It Through The Grapevine by Marvin Gaye and dozens of other non-Supremes songs

I’m sure that regardless of what I could say, some will argue forever. I respect everyone’s opinions. But, it is what it is. More importantly, this is not the first time this information has been suggested, discussed or challenged. Nor will it be the last. I can only confirm what I know.

This does not, and will not tarnish the Supremes reputation as the greatest female group of all-time. The roads they paved for others must be acknowledged and respected. What they accomplished has never been duplicated.

I’ll save the discussion about every other Supremes song for another day. If they weren’t on a particular song, well, it is what it is. They’re still on literally hundreds of other songs. Mary Wilson is still singing these hits today, Diana Ross is still singing this hits today. Diana and Mary’s legacies separately, and together as the Supremes, with Florence [[and Cindy, respectfully) will last long after we’re all gone. I personally love them, they are incredible women. The people I work with love them too, as I know all of you do as well. I have nothing but love and respect for each of these ladies, for all nine of them actually, and will continue to support what they did, and continue to do. I hope you will also.

I hope you read the part where he said The Supremes background vocals by Mary and Flo, are on most of their records leading up to Flo’s departure twice!

[marv2]

Were you there?

I was in grade school during those days and had other interests at the time!

[jobeterob]

And Andy said "most" and he went out of his way to speak supportively and respectfully of all the Supremes, Diana included.

But the history is the history; what happened is what happened; as other long time posters have said on here, things went one way for some Supremes and another for others.

[MIKEW-UK]

Maybe this is new to some visiting the forum? Video of Supremes performing Fancy Passes.....


http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2lwyy_fancy-passes_music

[captainjames]

Thanks again Rob
Andy is King !!!



This guy probably qualifies as the historical expert many people listen to.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
12-27-2011, 01:20 AM #58 Motown Andy
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Posts 48 The Supremes story is a very complicated one, and when discussing who sang on which records, it is sensitive not only to the Supremes, but to the Andantes, and to the fans. What we report may be loved by many, and in some situations, may not be popular, but it is always important that we tell the truth. Our motivation is that of preserving the Supremes legacy, not diminishing it. If we report a kind word about one Supreme, Mary, Flo or Diana, it is often misconstrued as a slap to the other two ladies. On any project I work on, I can assure you that this is not, and will never be the case. I support them, and I love them, both professionally and personally.

There’s a recent thread about what songs are Tammi Terrell, and what songs are Valerie Simpson. The thread is long and the argument is interesting, but the truth can be found in the research, and in listening to the isolated vocals on the multi-tracks. However, the answers we could give, in the Tammi scenario, in the Supremes scenario, or in other artists scenarios may not be what fans want to hear. I’d rather tell the truth, for myself, and for an accurate history, than to be popular. And at the end of the day, all I can do is present the facts, even if they are conflicting, and if there is no clear answer, the listener can be the judge. Sometimes we have an answer, sometimes we don’t.

The Supremes/Andantes situation does exist, but it has absolutely been blown out of proportion. The Supremes background vocals by Mary and Flo, are on most of their records leading up to Flo’s departure. But there are some they are not on, pure and simple. Mary Wilson has acknowledged this, Florence Ballard in interviews acknowledged this, Diana Ross has acknowledged this.

As one learns the Supremes voices, it becomes more clear when you hear them. Once you learn the Andantes voices, the picture comes right into focus. And if you’re lucky enough to see the Motown session logs and tape cards, or get to hear the isolated vocals, there becomes no doubt when you hear the Supremes, the Andantes, or both.

When I am asked, I often give fans one example to listen to. There are many, but here is my favorite one. Listen to the Supremes version of “Fancy Passes” [[issued on Never-Before-Released-Masters and the same version is the bonus track version issued on There’s A Place For Us). Mary and Flo have a spoken passage. If you know their voices from this song, you’ll also know that when you hear the same spoken passage in the Barbara McNair version, that those girls are the Andantes. Listen to the same parts, learn the two different sets of vocals. Now go listen to other Supremes songs you may have in question.

Stop! In The Name Of Love is the latest hot topic, so I’ll acknowledge it here. Listen to the alternate from disc 2 of More Hits, also in a different mix on the box set. Now listen to the live versions on At The Copa, or the video from the Hollywood Palace. They are all consistent. Now listen to the released “hit” version. The voice you are hearing, is Jackie Hicks. Go back to McNair’s Fancy Passes, you’ll hear Jackie there. You’ll hear her on Run Run Run. But you’ll also hear her clearly on Ask The Lonely by the Four Tops, I Heard It Through The Grapevine by Marvin Gaye and dozens of other non-Supremes songs

I’m sure that regardless of what I could say, some will argue forever. I respect everyone’s opinions. But, it is what it is. More importantly, this is not the first time this information has been suggested, discussed or challenged. Nor will it be the last. I can only confirm what I know.

This does not, and will not tarnish the Supremes reputation as the greatest female group of all-time. The roads they paved for others must be acknowledged and respected. What they accomplished has never been duplicated.

I’ll save the discussion about every other Supremes song for another day. If they weren’t on a particular song, well, it is what it is. They’re still on literally hundreds of other songs. Mary Wilson is still singing these hits today, Diana Ross is still singing this hits today. Diana and Mary’s legacies separately, and together as the Supremes, with Florence [[and Cindy, respectfully) will last long after we’re all gone. I personally love them, they are incredible women. The people I work with love them too, as I know all of you do as well. I have nothing but love and respect for each of these ladies, for all nine of them actually, and will continue to support what they did, and continue to do. I hope you will also.

[franjoy56]

I as well as other truly appreciate Andy's comments on the Supremes vocals, as he been working in the vaults for some time, however he was an employee of Mary Wilson's first in NY then he went to Universal to work on helping to release these hidden gems, and his comments are truly valuable. However, if Jackie Hicks is on Stop in the name of love, so in Florence Ballard because I hear her voice all throughthe song especially in key spots I assume the track had Mary Flo and an Andante singing in a lower key, and I have been listening to Mary and Flo since 1964. Here is what is said in the Complete Motown singles collection for 1965 "HDH devised all the ingredients for this production Diana's captivating lead the perky retorts from Mary and Flo" and a little help from the Andantes' Marlene Barrow, someone keeps getting their andantes mixed up, but Flo is definetly there to my ears and I'm sure to others as well. I cannot accept others especially those 20 years younger than myself to rewrite history because other voices are mixed in.

[marv2]

And Andy said "most" and he went out of his way to speak supportively and respectfully of all the Supremes, Diana included.

But the history is the history; what happened is what happened; as other long time posters have said on here, things went one way for some Supremes and another for others.

What does the word MOST mean in Canada? Yeah right! Now get outta Dodge! LOL!!!!!

[marv2]

I as well as other truly appreciate Andy's comments on the Supremes vocals, as he been working in the vaults for some time, however he was an employee of Mary Wilson's first in NY then he went to Universal to work on helping to release these hidden gems, and his comments are truly valuable. However, if Jackie Hicks is on Stop in the name of love, so in Florence Ballard because I hear her voice all throughthe song especially in key spots I assume the track had Mary Flo and an Andante singing in a lower key, and I have been listening to Mary and Flo since 1964. Here is what is said in the Complete Motown singles collection for 1965 "HDH devised all the ingredients for this production Diana's captivating lead the perky retorts from Mary and Flo" and a little help from the Andantes' Marlene Barrow, someone keeps getting their andantes mixed up, but Flo is definetly there to my ears and I'm sure to others as well. I cannot accept others especially those 20 years younger than myself to rewrite history because other voices are mixed in.

Fran, you got it right! Heck I've been listening to "Stop In the Name of Love" since 1965. I heard it again just yesterday on the radio here on Long Island. It has always been Florence and Mary with Diane on that record. I don't understand why now a few folks want to question that fact. I have heard rumors as to why, but I personally do not understand it.

[luke]

Im wondering too Marv--perhaps a falling out between certan people?

[soulballad]

The Motown/Universal guys have access to the logs and tapes etc. however in most cases they are doing the same things that we are and that's listening to a particular track and trying to decide who is on what and then trying to match the dates with what was going on at the time. These guys are not the all knowing Gods! It's just their opinon. An opinon that is sometimes taken as the gospel truth. We will probably never get definitive answers because a lot of the key players are now deceased and all that's left are a lot of people making a profit off of thier hardwork. I have seen way too much mis-information thrown around over the years to become unglued over a claim because if you stick around long enough the claim will change. For the last 25 years or so people have really come out of the woodworks and claimed they sang on this or that but it's all just a claim. If you'll notice a lot of this has been said after several of the key players who were actually there are deceased and the ones that are still around need to make a living so they are NOT interested and some have just left it in the past. The Supremes fan situation is like a hamster constantly running and running on a wheel and going nowhere fast.

[marv2]

The Motown/Universal guys have access to the logs and tapes etc. however in most cases they are doing the same things that we are and that's listening to a particular track and trying to decide who is on what and then trying to match the dates with what was going on at the time. These guys are not the all knowing Gods! It's just their opinon. An opinon that is sometimes taken as the gospel truth. We will probably never get definitive answers because a lot of the key players are now deceased and all that's left are a lot of people making a profit off of thier hardwork. I have seen way too much mis-information thrown around over the years to become unglued over a claim because if you stick around long enough the claim will change. For the last 25 years or so people have really come out of the woodworks and claimed they sang on this or that but it's all just a claim. If you'll notice a lot of this has been said after several of the key players who were actually there are deceased and the ones that are still around need to make a living so they are NOT interested and some have just left it in the past. The Supremes fan situation is like a hamster constantly running and running on a wheel and going nowhere fast.

You are very observant. I am impressed. I have thought the same thing and that is these claims are being made after several participants in the actual recording session have passed on.

[luke]

Also agree. Didnt like ten people cliam to have sung on Someday we'll be together?

[motony]

yea, I always "assumed" it was the Andantes on "Someday..... but then over the years I heard it was LA bg singers The Waters, then I heard Blackberries....but why?I thought it was recorded at studio A in Detroit...why would they fly in LA singers or take the track to LA? Harvey & Johnny Bristol were in Detroit.Confusing, but anything is possible.

[jobeterob]

On all the Motown reissues for years, background vocals on Someday We'll Be Together are always credited to the Waters; people now say it is the Andantes because the word is out that the Andantes sang on everything. But nothing out of Universal says such a thing.

[marv2]

yea, I always "assumed" it was the Andantes on "Someday..... but then over the years I heard it was LA bg singers The Waters, then I heard Blackberries....but why?I thought it was recorded at studio A in Detroit...why would they fly in LA singers or take the track to LA? Harvey & Johnny Bristol were in Detroit.Confusing, but anything is possible.


Harvey and Johnny are both dead now , so I guess some folks feel it's safe to start making claims. I know what Johnny has said and I believe him. He said that they wanted to use Mary Wilson and Cindy Birdsong on the record but the ladies were leaving town at the time he had scheduled to record their parts [[Cindy Birdsong has confirmed this as well.)

The one other person I believe in regards to "Someday We'll Be Together" is Merry Clayton! She made mention that she was on that record in an article I read way back in 1972! I also feel it is possible that Mary and Cindy are on some of Diana's s olo material. I 've always thought one of the voices on "Reach Out and Touch" sounds very, VERY much like Mary Wilson.

[marv2]

yea, I always "assumed" it was the Andantes on "Someday..... but then over the years I heard it was LA bg singers The Waters, then I heard Blackberries....but why?I thought it was recorded at studio A in Detroit...why would they fly in LA singers or take the track to LA? Harvey & Johnny Bristol were in Detroit.Confusing, but anything is possible.

Oh yeah Motony, Johnny B. also said that the vocals were recorded in L.A.

[BayouMotownMan]

It has been established by Andy Skurow that Merry Clayton was not credited on singing backing vocals on SWBT. She may have been referring to the Marvelettes version recorded a year later. It's also possible that her vocal was simply not used if it happened at all.

To claim that Mary Wilson is on Reach Out and Touch is ludicrous. Most of the backing vocals on both Diana Ross and Surrender was done by Ashford and Simpson themselves. If you listen to You're All I Need To Get By, Nick Ashford is very obvious on the first verse.

[ejluther]

I thought the story was always that "Someday..." was slated to be the first Diana solo single but they changed it to a DRATS release after it was already completed. If that's the case, why would Johnny say he wanted Mary & Cindy on it? Maybe he wanted to go back and rerecord the backgrounds with them? As for "Reach Out..." I've read before [[of course I can't remember where) that it was slated to be DRATS' "Farewell" single if "Someday..." didn't do well. If that's the case, I wouldn't be surprised if Mary is on it. Of course, if that were true, I'm sure someone here would know it...

[marv2]

On all the Motown reissues for years, background vocals on Someday We'll Be Together are always credited to the Waters; people now say it is the Andantes because the word is out that the Andantes sang on everything. But nothing out of Universal says such a thing.

There is no talk or "word is out...." that the Andantes sang on everything. No one is talking about the Andantes anywhere but here. I hope the Andantes are not telling people that they sang on everything. I also hope that Diane is not telling people that she did all the work when it came to the Supremes. I really hope that is not what is going on.....

You said that nothing out of Universal says such a thing. If you know of or find a source where this coming from, be a Pal and let us know. Cool?

[BayouMotownMan]

Johnny Bristol has said he intended Someday for Jr. Walker. Gordy felt it was more relative to Ross's situation as he was pulling out of the Supremes. There was no big effort to get Mary and Cindy in any of the previous Diana Ross & The Supremes singles so why should this song be any different. In most cases, Ross would be flown in for sessions or producers would fly out to her wherever she was to get a vocal. Yes, the first idea was to have it as the first single for Diana but when reconsidered, and with the strength and the potential of the song, Gordy realized it would be easier to launch Ross from within the framework of the Supremes if she left with the benefit of a major hit record...something the Supremes had not had for most of 1969. Therefore, it was decided to be the last single for Diana and the Supremes. In reality, other than performances, Diana had very little interaction with Mary and Cindy for most of 1969. When Jean Terrell was signed to Motown in May [[as I recall) of that year, Gordy concentrated more on Diana recording on her own and producers competing to find a new sound on the new Supremes. Jean also continued to do bookings with her brothers group during this period. In fact, there is live footage on her DVD of the Heavyweights performing with Jean in New Orleans circa August 1969. This was right after Hurricane Camille and Jean was recording and in meetings with Mary and Cindy

[BayouMotownMan]

Also consider that many women were considered "Andantes" at different times during the sixties. Telma Hopkins has said that she and Joyce Vincent recorded on Four Tops and Marvin Gaye tracks as Andantes. Perhaps the Waters sisters did as well. I'm not saying they did, put it is a possibility.

[BayouMotownMan]

Diana Ross has never claimed to have done all the work as the Supremes. NEVER! Truth is she contributed far more to that group than any other member however. When she walked away she made no objections of who did what from within the framework of the Supremes.

[marv2]

It has been established by Andy Skurow that Merry Clayton was not credited on singing backing vocals on SWBT. She may have been referring to the Marvelettes version recorded a year later. It's also possible that her vocal was simply not used if it happened at all.

To claim that Mary Wilson is on Reach Out and Touch is ludicrous. Most of the backing vocals on both Diana Ross and Surrender was done by Ashford and Simpson themselves. If you listen to You're All I Need To Get By, Nick Ashford is very obvious on the first verse.

I said it always sounded like Mary Wilson's voice on the background of "Reach Out and Touch...." to me. To pretend and lie to make it sound as if I said that it is her is bullshit. Read it again!

Also just because Merry Clayton is not credited does not mean Johnny didn't have her in on that session and paid her. Yeah it is possible that her vocal may not have been used just like I have been saying for over a year now that it is possible that all those vocals that Marlene Barrow, Jackie Hicks, Louvain aka the Andantes claim they did for all those records may not have been used or used on versions that made it out into the public.

[marv2]

I thought the story was always that "Someday..." was slated to be the first Diana solo single but they changed it to a DRATS release after it was already completed. If that's the case, why would Johnny say he wanted Mary & Cindy on it? Maybe he wanted to go back and rerecord the backgrounds with them? As for "Reach Out..." I've read before [[of course I can't remember where) that it was slated to be DRATS' "Farewell" single if "Someday..." didn't do well. If that's the case, I wouldn't be surprised if Mary is on it. Of course, if that were true, I'm sure someone here would know it...

I don't know, but that is exactly what he and Cindy Birdsong both said! Maybe he intended to have them on the record since it was recorded while Diana was still a member of the Supremes?

[marv2]

Diana Ross has never claimed to have done all the work as the Supremes. NEVER! Truth is she contributed far more to that group than any other member however. When she walked away she made no objections of who did what from within the framework of the Supremes.


All I know is I hope she is not making that claim or anyone else connected to her is making it.......... I really hope not.

[BayouMotownMan]

This is the post you made Marv


I also feel it is possible that Mary and Cindy are on some of Diana's s olo material.


As usual you are trying to stir things that are unfounded and baseless. I also do not understand why the moderator of this board allows you to use foul and abusive language when you are proven wrong time after time after time. It was NOT possible for Mary and Cindy to be on that album

[marv2]

This is the post you made Marv


I also feel it is possible that Mary and Cindy are on some of Diana's s olo material.

As usual you are trying to stir things that are unfounded and baseless. I also do not understand why the moderator of this board allows you to use foul and abusive language when you are proven wrong time after time after time. It was NOT possible for Mary and Cindy to be on that album

Nothing is proven on this forum other than you think you know things related to Motown, Detroit, it's entertainers, musicians, it's people and you know nothing! Let me qualify that, the only things you think you know, you got from people like me! I can promise you that no one is going to share with you what I call "the real deal" . So until you run out of people to leech onto to get information, you still have a long fruitless journey ahead you. I would also would advise you not to pick on Ralph, he is a good man, a good bro!

Marv

[smark21]

After all these debates and arguing and speculation on who sings what on Supremes songs [[and other Motown female group recordings) I've come to the conclusion that I don't care who is singing lead and who is singing background. Just so long as it sounds good to my ear and that the vocal and musical arrangements are interesting.

[motony]

remember bassist Carole Kaye claims she played on alot of early Motown hits, which she didn't...she played onm some demos & maybe some later LA Motown sessions.Alot of session people played on so much they might be getting song titles confused or whatever.

[marv2]

remember bassist Carole Kaye claims she played on alot of early Motown hits, which she didn't...she played onm some demos & maybe some later LA Motown sessions.Alot of session people played on so much they might be getting song titles confused or whatever.

A most excellent point motony! I am not fooled by any of these current out of the blue claims people are trying make here.

[bradsupremes]

You know, it's a whole different story when you actually see the session logs, tape cards, recordings dates, and actually listen to the multitrack tapes. The combination of music and voices say one thing, but when you hear them all individually you hear something completely different. For example, take a listen to some of Midnight Johnny's remixes where instrumentation or vocals are isolated. You'll hear things that you never heard before.

Do I accept everything that every person claims they are on? No. People are bound to mix things up, but who's to say that some people don't have a memory like an elephant. To prove whether someone is or isn't on a track is to look at the tapes. The evidence is right there. If you know someone's voice and hear them on the song then it has to be them. When it comes to "You Can't Hurry Love," I fully believe Marlene Barrow's claim that she's on there with Mary because:
1.) I don't hear Florence's voice on the song;
2.) The background vocals for the Italian & live versions are different than the single;
3.) The other songs recorded that day don't have Florence's voice on them either;
4.) I've matched the voice I'm hearing with the example that Andy gave as well as "T.L.C.";
5.) The environment of what was going with the group at the time [[Remember Marlene had stood in for Florence in live shows prior to this. Only seems natural they would use her with Mary when Florence didn't show up for a session.)

Others may disagree with me, but these are the conclusions I came to.

It's been explained before that Motown was using 8 track multitrack tapes during the hit streak period [[1965-1969). All of those tracks had a lot of things on them so there was no extra room to add additional background vocal enhancements unless they completely dubbed over a track or things were mixed down to make room.

I may not have lived through it, but I do know my history...

[ejluther]

The other songs recorded that day don't have Florence's voice on them either;
What other songs were recorded that day?


The background vocals for the Italian & live versions are different than the single;
The Italian version is here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uTIhAHWzig&feature=fvst

[luke]

I think the Andantes went to language classes while the Supremes went to their other classes with Mrs Powell etc. Berry had them fluent in Italian, German, French etc so those no hit Supremes would never have to sing a note on their records!!

[BobC]

Isn't the important thing how good the Supremes sounded live? There used to be a clip on Youtube of the three of them singing lead on "People"--each of them sang a verse and they all sounded great. I listen to that early stuff and really wonder why Mary wasn't featured more often, at least in shows. Mary's voice went downhill later, IMO because of diminished self-confidence, smoking and other things, but at one time I thought she sounded amazing. She got her voice back later, thankfully. But anyway, as much as it is interesting trying to figure out who was on what record, I think the most important thing was that the Supremes could deliver live.

[bradsupremes]

What other songs were recorded that day?

The background vocals for "You Can't Hurry Love" were recorded on July 5, 1966. The other songs recorded that day were "Misery Makes Its Home In My Heart" and "Come On And See Me." The Andantes were added to "Come On And See Me" a few days later, so it's hard to use that track as a listening source. Take a listen to "Misery Makes Its Home In My Heart." You can hear Mary, but Florence's distinctive voice doesn't stand out. I feel the same when it comes to "Reflections." The soprano sounds nothing like Florence. What I find interesting is that people have debated about who is on "Misery Makes Its Home In My Heart" and "Reflections." Some people have claimed it was Mary and Cindy, others say Mary and Florence, and a few have said the Andantes with Mary. When it's not really clear who is on the song then that is saying something. If Mary is heard, but no Florence, what does that say? All the more reason to back Marlene Barrow's claim.

[motony]

Oh, I don't doubt that Marlene would be on there. I mean if a session was booked & one of the groups singers is sick...well too bad, Motown had another singer to put in there if needed. Time is money & a session is not going to be cancelled rescheduled whatever if a background singer is sick, late, whatever.

[captainjames]

You are absolutely right
If anyone does not hear Val and Nick on "Reach Out and Touch" then it obvious they are not listening. Sometimes Val & Nick would had Ullanda and Ray to help fill out the vocals but, I have never heard Valerie mention using Mary or Cindy on any of Diana's vocals.



It has been established by Andy Skurow that Merry Clayton was not credited on singing backing vocals on SWBT. She may have been referring to the Marvelettes version recorded a year later. It's also possible that her vocal was simply not used if it happened at all.

To claim that Mary Wilson is on Reach Out and Touch is ludicrous. Most of the backing vocals on both Diana Ross and Surrender was done by Ashford and Simpson themselves. If you listen to You're All I Need To Get By, Nick Ashford is very obvious on the first verse.

[jobeterob]

I wonder if Marlene Barrow was ever considered for the job Cindy Birdsong got?

Do I have a memory that she said in the book that she might have been considered? She might have also said Diana wasn't keen on it so she knew she wouldn't be in the running.

Does anyone remember?

[robbert]

Footage of The Supremes in the Sammy Davis Show, together with The Andrews Sisters. Flo takes the lead and she's clear as a bell!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=HgTsBsSngrc

[BayouMotownMan]

Didn't Flo steal those Andrews Sister songs Robbert? She was fantastic and was placed right in front of the mike. The Supremes outdid the Andrews Sisters head to toe [[and I love the Andrews Sisters). The Supremes sang the Andrews Sisters songs straight while the Sisters tried to give the Supremes song a big band sound from their generation. It was a disaster. Where Did Our Love Go was especially sorry, with those hand gestures and overblown fingersnaps. It aged them. Bad idea.

[jobeterob]

At their best, the harmony could be very good.