Was David Ruffin's firing from the Temptations justified.

[franjoy56]

I believe David Ruffin's firing from the Tempts was justified, he was out of control with his ego and thinking he was above the group in talent and vocal appeal. However, i think a suspension from the group would have been an option to see if he could have straightened up his act, but then again the group had quickly found a replacement there was little time in between I wish it would rain, or I could never love another and Cloud NIne, they found Dennis Edwards quickly, and Edwards replaced Ruffin just in time for the TCB debut in September of 68. Its been said David was not in agreement of the billing of the tv show and that was part of the problem that caused his quick exit.

[thisoldheart]

justified or not, i always felt this was the end of the temps for me. the next era was just a sly rip off for me, and then one slow never ending death!

[soulster]

I believe David Ruffin's firing from the Tempts was justified, he was out of control with his ego and thinking he was above the group in talent and vocal appeal. However, i think a suspension from the group would have been an option to see if he could have straightened up his act, but then again the group had quickly found a replacement there was little time in between I wish it would rain, or I could never love another and Cloud NIne, they found Dennis Edwards quickly, and Edwards replaced Ruffin just in time for the TCB debut in September of 68. Its been said David was not in agreement of the billing of the tv show and that was part of the problem that caused his quick exit.

Well, the hard drugs had a lot to do with it. You can only take so much of showing up late, or not at all, doing drugs, having an attitude, not getting along with your fellow group members, demanding more pay, top billing, being a prima-donna...they had to fire him to wake him up. They probably would have let him back in if he had straightened up, but he never really did.

I liked the Temps from the beginning all the way up to the 80s. I felt the group went downhill after the album "A Song For You". It was Norman Whitfield's ego that did them in in the 70s. "Shakey Ground" was the bomb, all about the funk, and I love it, but the technology got in the way of their vocals. IMO, "Power" was the last great Temptations song. After that' it was just style.

[jsmith]

The ironic thing is that Dennis Edwards behaviour wasn't perfect at the time [[though this info probably didn't find its way back to BG in Detroit).
Dennis was in trouble with a big east coast radio DJ after he had taken the DJ's wife back to the group's hotel after a Contours show to 'party'. Because of this, the DJ refused to play any Tempts records on his radio show after Dennis joined the group [[the situation was resolved but the DJ & his wife divorced).
David didn't take the sacking well & instantly formed a new group around himself & started taking bookings for the new outfit. David was quite quickly fetched back into the Motown family [[as a solo act) & his new group fell apart.

[144man]

However, i think a suspension from the group would have been an option to see if he could have straightened up his act, but then again the group had quickly found a replacement...

You've answered yourself here. They needed a replacement as quickly as possible in order to fulfil their contractual obligations. A temporary replacement would have required too much time and effort to be practical because of their vast repertoire and intricate choreography.

[thisoldheart]

does the whole post ruffin era bother anyone? the temps could have still been the r/b group they were, without having to do such a blatant rip off of sly. up to that point motown led, after the company seemed to follow trends. yup, i release it is a generalization, but it seems basically true.

[marv2]

I believe David Ruffin's firing from the Tempts was justified, he was out of control with his ego and thinking he was above the group in talent and vocal appeal. However, i think a suspension from the group would have been an option to see if he could have straightened up his act, but then again the group had quickly found a replacement there was little time in between I wish it would rain, or I could never love another and Cloud NIne, they found Dennis Edwards quickly, and Edwards replaced Ruffin just in time for the TCB debut in September of 68. Its been said David was not in agreement of the billing of the tv show and that was part of the problem that caused his quick exit.

It's funny. The part you wrote about David being out of control with his ego and thinking he was above the group in the talent and vocal appeal sounds just like Diana Ross to me! LOL!

[splanky]

I don't get the "blatant rip off of sly" thing. Was Norman Whitfield greatly influenced by Sly Stone?....Is pig booty pork?..
but so were at least a dozen other producers and ten times that as far as groups. Funk outside of the James Brown organisation was coming into it's own all over the place even at Stax and other companies. If you want to ignore a group
after they lose or fire a prominent lead, that's your choice but I loved the Dennis Edwards era of the Tempts as well Damon Harris period replacing my idol Eddie Kendricks. Either way none of us can rewrite history, can we?...

[motony]

yea, Marv but the important part is Diana Ross was a TOTAL professional, did not miss gigs, did not do drugs and followed Motowns[[management) direction.I thought the Temptations were blessed to find Dennis Edwards.They had a very contemporary style & sound & way more soul then Sly.

[soulster]

does the whole post ruffin era bother anyone? the temps could have still been the r/b group they were, without having to do such a blatant rip off of sly. up to that point motown led, after the company seemed to follow trends. yup, i release it is a generalization, but it seems basically true.

It does not bother me one bit. The new style fit right in with the times. I don't look at it as some type of rip-off at all. Funk was "in" in the late 60s.

[thisoldheart]

It does not bother me one bit. The inw style fit right in with the times. I don't look at it as some type of rip-off at all. Funk was "in" in the late 60s.
you mean all of sly's "boo-boo-boos" were on other groups records? hmm ... perhaps this ancient head is getting my history mixed up, but i think not, because the minute i heard "cloud nine" i turned it off and put on "dance to the music"! sly was so cool. the temps began to sound like a group adrift! dennis edwards seemed like an imitation ruffin to me, and i had completely stopped listening to them when the sublime eddie kendricks left. but, on the other hand i will have to say that one of the two most spun motown records was of all time for me was and remains kendricks' "darlin' come back home". damn, i still play that song to death!

[candykamaine]

does the whole post ruffin era bother anyone? the temps could have still been the r/b group they were, without having to do such a blatant rip off of sly. up to that point motown led, after the company seemed to follow trends. yup, i release it is a generalization, but it seems basically true.

Nope, I probably have the longest tolorance of post david ruffin group. I like the tempts material up until 2001 .:\ After that It started to be more synthetic to me. Now, If the current one break up [[which is not my favorate), I just hope that Otis ends it there.

Tho, I could not stand it sometimes when it takes 3 minutes to get to the vocals in some of the Norman Whitfiled songs. I just fast foward to the vocals.

[soulster]

you mean all of sly's "boo-boo-boos" were on other groups records? hmm ... perhaps this ancient head is getting my history mixed up, but i think not, because the minute i heard "cloud nine" i turned it off and put on "dance to the music"! sly was so cool. the temps began to sound like a group adrift! dennis edwards seemed like an imitation ruffin to me, and i had completely stopped listening to them when the sublime eddie kendricks left. but, on the other hand i will have to say that one of the two most spun motown records was of all time for me was and remains kendricks' "darlin' come back home". damn, i still play that song to death!

Why does it have to be a contest? It was all about people trying to do their own thing. The traditional R&B was over, at least for a while. Archie Bell & the Drells, The Isley Brothers, Parliament...it's just a shame that, aside from Norman Whitfield and Rare Earth, the Motown people just didn't have a clue. For the most part, they were still stuck on three-minute love songs.

[soulster]

Tho, I could not stand it sometimes when it takes 3 minutes to get to the vocals in some of the Norman Whitfiled songs. I just fast foward to the vocals.

Really? I though it was the coolest thing for the vocals to come in much later. Don't you care about the music part, and the dramatic build up?

[candykamaine]

Really? I though it was the coolest thing for the vocals to come in much later. Don't you care about the music part, and the dramatic build up?

I do like it in Papa was a Rolling stone and Masterpiece [[mostly cause I am a bit used to both songs and they have a great beat to them).


Why does it have to be a contest? It was all about people trying to do their own thing. The traditional R&B was over, at least for a while. Archie Bell & the Drells, The Isley Brothers, Parliament...it's just a shame that, aside from Norman Whitfield and Rare Earth, the Motown people just didn't have a clue. For the most part, they were still stuck on three-minute love songs.

and I also agree with the other post you posted too.

[captainjames]

I loved the Tempts when David was a member but I learned to love Dennis as a Tempt as well.

[Roger Polhill]

I`d hoped that they would promote Paul Williams as he had the most soulful voice.

[StuBass1]

Had David remained in The Temptations I believe that you would have begun to read in newspapers stories about the group...for all the WRONG reasons. The Tempts enjoyed a pretty clean reputation throughout their careers and generally maintained a positive image...at least so far as the public was concerned.

[sunshineonacloudyday]

Even if Ruffin had cleaned up his act and stayed with The Temptations, the gradual change in popular music during the 70s was away from group harmony. Consider the Four Tops who remained a hard-working cohesive group for over four decades-- but by the mid 70s their hits were fewer and fewer [["Catfish" anyone, lol.) And by the 80s, well...for me, listening to great voices such as The Temps and Tops backed by synthesizers, was like being served fine wine in a styrofoam cup.

[robb_k]

4051
David Ruffin forming his new group with members from outside Motown [[RCA/Pied Piper's Cavaliers), and David's recording for Groovesville [[Don Davis) is now less of a mystery to me, finding out that he was planning to leave Motown [[and was,apparently, not under contract with them, anymore [[being as he had to re-sign with Motown as a single artist [[which I had thought was only a formality-as Motown still thought of him being under contract-just not a member of his former group).

[MIKEW-UK]

Robb, I was unaware of the RCA Pied Piper Cavaliers connection, so eventually tracked down on Youtube, which I'm posting in the event any one else was intrigued by your post on David Ruffin. cheers

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKpj_TUct6I

[BayouMotownMan]

It was more than justified that the Temptations fired David Ruffin, it was essential

[robb_k]

Robb, I was unaware of the RCA Pied Piper Cavaliers connection, so eventually tracked down on Youtube, which I'm posting in the event any one else was intrigued by your post on David Ruffin. cheers

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKpj_TUct6I

4056
Apparently, David did those 2 things I mentioned above, in the short window of time after he was dumped from The Temptations, and he re-signed with Motown as a single artist. His new group [[I forget the name he gave them-but made up of the Cavaliers and himself), actually had a billing to show up at an appearance. But I believe it was cancelled when he re-signed with Motown. Maybe it was all a bargaining ploy?

[stephanie]

His firing was justified but its funny how he and and Flo were both offered solo contracts when these things happened to them. Was Gordy trying to keep them quiet or did he think he could mkae money with them as well. Until I read Berrys book I didnt even know Flo had been offered a solo contract.

[arrr&bee]

David's firing came as a shock to most of us at the time and dennis coming after was frowned upon at first[of course he carved out a nice legend in the group and i for one am greatful they got him]oh and when david had his little group after they were called[the fellas]that's how they were billed[david's ego no doubt]david used the temps to further his career and it worked[up to a point]the great thing about the temptations is that they have had so many era's with music that ranged from great[1962-1972]very good[1973-1983]good[1984-1987]to fair[1990-the present]that ther's something there for anyone who is a fan,as some have said they left along with david or maybe after dennis but whatever the case may be the temptations are an american institution and we are all greatful to have them in all their incantations..heck even i have said a time or two that maybe it's time for otis to shut it down but in my heart i'm glad he doesn't listen to that kind of talk because whnever i see or hear of something from the temps today it makes me proud because i almost feel like it's a part of me too and i know many of you feel the same way,and it's a hell of a thing to keep going[and having hits]after losing such dynamic singers[eddie-paul-david-melvin-dennis-ali-richard-damon-glenn]god bless em all as well as the guys who stand in thier place keeping a great tradition going today,whether we buy the songs now or now.....the temptations forever.

[scanspeak]

Lets say David didn't leave the group. What do you think would have happened differently?

We would still have had all the same songs except with David on lead instead of Dennis. Some may have sounded better, some may not.

Overall, in the scheme of things, I don't think it would have made much difference to the overall sound of the Temptations, assuming David's presence didnt destroy the group from within.
If that had happened, we would have missed out on a lot of great music that followed.

By the Way, "Lady Soul" is one of my all-time favorite Tempts songs.

[soulster]

Let's put it this way: If David Ruffin had been worlking in any other profession, he would have been gone much, much sooner!

[paladin]

heck even i have said a time or two that maybe it's time for otis to shut it down but in my heart i'm glad he doesn't listen to that kind of talk because whnever i see or hear of something from the temps today it makes me proud because i almost feel like it's a part of me too and i know many of you feel the same way,and it's a hell of a thing to keep going[and having hits]after losing such dynamic singers[eddie-paul-david-melvin-dennis-ali-richard-damon-glenn]god bless em all as well as the guys who stand in thier place keeping a great tradition going today,whether we buy the songs now or now.....the temptations forever.




Overall, in the scheme of things, I don't think it would have made much difference to the overall sound of the Temptations, assuming David's presence didnt destroy the group from within. If that had happened, we would have missed out on a lot of great music that followed.


Very good posts and observations. David leaving the group was a bit of a shock, but then, that's what the sixties was all about. The Temptations were built upon a "group dynamic" that was relied upon and supported by Otis & Melvin for their continued success. They were friends yet highly competitive which worked against that dynamic not only with themselves but their producers as well. They knew they could sing before and after Ruffin, so it is what it is. Their early success was fueled by Paul Williams and Eddie Kendricks and David was a welcome addition no doubt. His showmanship and stirring vocals made them bigger than ever. Together they were simply the best there ever was. Although some purists decry the addition of Dennis Edwards as heralding the end of the group as we knew it, Dennis's arrival and the producer reins being turned over to Norman Whitfield made them even bigger on the world stage and they went flying into the seventies hell bent for leather. The Temptations have continued to follow that group dynamic and as their latest album says are "Still Here". One of the most fascinating and heart breaking stories of the music business. One of the most consistent things in life is change, The Temptations have weathered the perfect storm and provided us with sweet music all these years. Simply remarkable.......

[thisoldheart]

Very good posts and observations. David leaving the group was a bit of a shock, but then, that's what the sixties was all about. The Temptations were built upon a "group dynamic" that was relied upon and supported by Otis & Melvin for their continued success. They were friends yet highly competitive which worked against that dynamic not only with themselves but their producers as well. They knew they could sing before and after Ruffin, so it is what it is. Their early success was fueled by Paul Williams and Eddie Kendricks and David was a welcome addition no doubt. His showmanship and stirring vocals made them bigger than ever. Together they were simply the best there ever was. Although some purists decry the addition of Dennis Edwards as heralding the end of the group as we knew it, Dennis's arrival and the producer reins being turned over to Norman Whitfield made them even bigger on the world stage and they went flying into the seventies hell bent for leather. The Temptations have continued to follow that group dynamic and as their latest album says are "Still Here". One of the most fascinating and heart breaking stories of the music business. One of the most consistent things in life is change, The Temptations have weathered the perfect storm and provided us with sweet music all these years. Simply remarkable.......

when david ruffin left the temptations and norman whitfield changed from his own original songwriting style to one that so obviously mimicked that of sly, all of the real steam that the temps had up to that time quickly turned the group from solid originators to followers. luckily both marvin gaye and stevie wonder had grown into capable artists who began to control their own careers and developed their original and highly idiosyncratic styles. the temps headed downhill along with most of the singer based groups and the rise of the complete self contained artist emerged. in essence the motown sound ended or perhaps better stated was incorporated into wonder and gaye who were free to go in new directions with the motown sound ingrained in the soul of their new sound.

[[this is a rather simplified version and reductive, but does show the general trend at motown, and in the rock world in general at this time.)

[jobeterob]

It is always tough dealing with artistic people who might generally be more tempermental than others - artists like David Ruffin; Otis Williams has turned the Temptations into an institution with his staying power and business sense; evidently he didn't have the singing talent of David or Dennis or Eddie but he had the business sense of Berry Gordy. Of all the Motown groups, the Temptations are the enduring success story and it is because of Otis.

So, yes, they did the right thing with David Ruffin and got rid of him.

But that is the same story with so many other artists and groups ~ if there is no discipline, as soon as the hits stop, the record company will not stick with them for long.

[paladin]

the temps headed downhill along with most of the singer based groups and the rise of the complete self contained artist emerged. in essence the motown sound ended or perhaps better stated was incorporated into wonder and gaye who were free to go in new directions with the motown sound ingrained in the soul of their new sound.

Yes Marvin and Stevie changed as did the Temptations but to intimate that they went down hill is so far from the truth as to be laughable. We will agree to disagree .

[The Doctor Temptation]

In my opinion with all the issues that david had, he was guilty party. According to Dennis Edwards in an interview, they had agreed to bring David back.....that night he missed the show and they called Dennis back.
David was a great lead singer, but the heart of the Temptations was Eddie Kendricks and Paul Williams. They gave the Temptations that sound.....Eddie was a great lead singer and a excellent background singer.
Dennis Edwards in my opinion was just as good or better than David. Om the TCB Show he made "I'm Losing You" his own.
Dennis made a lot of fans forget David.
Ali Woodson and Theo Peoples in their own right were excellent

Glenn Leonard was the best replacement for Eddie

I only wish the Reunion Tour would have come 10 years earlier......I think it would have been a sucess
PLUS Eddie's voice was stronger
THE TEMPTATIONS ARE BY FAR THE GREATEST MALE SINGING GROUP

THE DOCTOR TEMPTATION

[BobC]

I am pleased to see that people on the forum are rational about DR's firing [[sometimes it's hard when you're a big fan). I am with those who believe his firing was absolutely justified, even though he is probably my second favorite male soul singer, behind Billy Davis Jr.

One thing no one has mentioned here is that David Ruffin really started acting up when Florence Ballard was fired from the Supremes. Berry Gordy was fed up with some of the youngsters he'd nurtured for years and thought of as family suddenly acting like spoiled prima donnas, making outrageous demands, not showing up for rehearsals, and genuinely turning into monsters. Berry hated what happened with the Supremes and the dismissal of Florence meant, in many ways, the end of the whole family feeling, the one for all and all for one mentality that Motowners once had. Berry was getting crap from her, Martha Reeves, and then David Ruffin started acting up. Berry's patience was thin at that point and he did not want to appear weak. He had to stand up and be the boss--and after the Florence fiasco he wasn't about to put up with David's crap.

And when David started doing drugs he became even more irrational and unpredictable. It was not an easy decision to put him out--tryst me, Berry knew the risk involved considering the fact that David was the lead on most of the Tempt's biggest hits, and their most theatrical performer. Berry knew what was at stake. He made the right choice. Later, in the 80's when he toured with Dennis and Eddie, David had become such a far-gone crack head that he was hallucinating and more unpredictable than ever. The week when he was found dead of a drug overdose, he had taken off with 60 k of the former Tempts money from a European tour. He more than likely spent it all on crack, or he was robbed when he was out of it. We'll never know for sure.

Sad sad sad. Have you all heard his album "So Soon We Change." I thought it was a masterpiece. His song "Break My Heart" had all the makings of a big hit, but David's erratic, drug-induced behavior made Warner Brothers weary of putting too much into him, in terms of promotion dollars. Self destructive doesn't even begin to describe David Ruffin.

[paladin]

Sad sad sad. Have you all heard his album "So Soon We Change." I thought it was a masterpiece. His song "Break My Heart" had all the makings of a big hit, but David's erratic, drug-induced behavior made Warner Brothers weary of putting too much into him, in terms of promotion dollars.

Don Davis who produced the LP was very good at getting to the heart of Ruff's performance. I love that album.


I am pleased to see that people on the forum are rational about DR's firing [[sometimes it's hard when you're a big fan). I am with those who believe his firing was absolutely justified, even though he is probably my second favorite male soul singer

Although they have the same initials..........I was hoping to keep the flames outta this thread....lol.....

[BobC]

Huh? Flames out of what? I wasn't bashing anybody--just telling the truth.

[StuBass1]

Break My Heart was a terrific song. Bruce did the arrangements on that album and another Don Davis Ruffin effort...Gentleman Ruffin. I was at United Sound and watched some of the vocal track being recorded. David seemed fine at the time.

[candykamaine]

^^ Gentleman Ruffin is my favorate album especially the song "I wanna be with you".

[BobC]

Yeah--David had an uncanny ability to rise to the occasion despite his substance abuse. I never saw him live, but I have never heard of him giving a bad performance. I've heard of him missing shows and all that--but if he was there, he turned it out.

[dzMusica]

His firing was justified but its funny how he and and Flo were both offered solo contracts when these things happened to them. Was Gordy trying to keep them quiet or did he think he could mkae money with them as well. Until I read Berrys book I didnt even know Flo had been offered a solo contract.

Don't believe anything Berry Gordy says unless its bad.

[dzMusica]

I believe David Ruffin's firing from the Tempts was justified, he was out of control with his ego and thinking he was above the group in talent and vocal appeal. However, i think a suspension from the group would have been an option to see if he could have straightened up his act, but then again the group had quickly found a replacement there was little time in between I wish it would rain, or I could never love another and Cloud NIne, they found Dennis Edwards quickly, and Edwards replaced Ruffin just in time for the TCB debut in September of 68. Its been said David was not in agreement of the billing of the tv show and that was part of the problem that caused his quick exit.

Berry Gordy was a complete idiot. All they had to do was pair him and Martha as a duet team. As they both wanted solo success, had the 'great voices', and needed a boost for their solo careers. Done right, they would have made more money than Tammi and Marvin. But, in Motown fashion, they still would have been broke. At least they would have been drug buddies though. Lol

[paladin]

Huh? Flames out of what? I wasn't bashing anybody--just telling the truth

Bob obviously you have misread what I said, I was in fact agreeing with you and never accused you of bashing anybody ? Ok Let me break it down for you. David Ruffin and a certain Motown Diva have the same initials......any thread that concerns her or her career usually goes up in flames...which this thread has not......jeez !


Break My Heart was a terrific song. Bruce did the arrangements on that album and another Don Davis Ruffin effort...Gentleman Ruffin. I was at United Sound and watched some of the vocal track being recorded. David seemed fine at the time.

Stubass we have talked about these records in the past, he also recorded a tune or two by Tony Hester during those sessions. I'd love to hear what they left in the can. "Let Your Love Rain Down on Me" was a killer cut, that sax solo eerily reminiscent of Jr Walker gets me every time.

[thisoldheart]

Yes Marvin and Stevie changed as did the Temptations but to intimate that they went down hill is so far from the truth as to be laughable. We will agree to disagree .
i think most posters here have trouble distinguishing their nostalgia from the larger history of music. i do adore artists for their past accomplishments, but realize when their heyday was over. but, it is alway rather painful to listen to more current records by musicians who are no longer making vital music.

very few musicians, especially in the pop/rock/r&b are to sustain a career much longer than twenty years. the stones didn't quite make 20 years. patti smith, 30 years with a ten year mid career break, dylan 40 years. ella fitzgerald, louis armstrong, leonard bernstein, and jazz or classical artists seem to have longer relevant careers.

but, emotion and reason are not something this site finds easy to reconcile!

[BobC]

Paladin--I wasn't being nasty. I didn't realize that the mere mention of Ross' name would illicit a flame war. I stay out of those anyway. If things start going psychotic, I tend to close the thread and move on.

I am a little surprised to read how many people didn't like Norman's work with the Tempts. "Papa Was a Rolling Stone" was the first Tempts song I ever heard, and I loved it as a kid--even today I think it's a classic.

[marv2]

I believe David Ruffin's firing from the Tempts was justified, he was out of control with his ego and thinking he was above the group in talent and vocal appeal. However, i think a suspension from the group would have been an option to see if he could have straightened up his act, but then again the group had quickly found a replacement there was little time in between I wish it would rain, or I could never love another and Cloud NIne, they found Dennis Edwards quickly, and Edwards replaced Ruffin just in time for the TCB debut in September of 68. Its been said David was not in agreement of the billing of the tv show and that was part of the problem that caused his quick exit.

Not that it is important ,but I recall the program "TCB" airing originally in December of 68.

[luke]

True Diana followed the program more but her ego was out of control too-impacting the group terribly. Why did the Tempts have the power to kick David out while other groups didnt seem to have that power?

[BobC]

The Tempts put things up to a vote--whereas the Supremes never did. It's that simple. Berry wanted to pull Diana out of the Supremes years before she actually left, so even if M and F voted Diana out--they knew on a gut level that Motown would just cater to Diana and turn its back on the group. The Tempts always had multiple lead singers so their fate did not rest on one singer's shoulders. Unfortunately for them, both David and Florence acted in self-destructive manners which made their firings easier.

Most of the other Motown acts had very distinctive and well known lead singers. The Vandellas couldn't vote out Martha, nor could the Tops kick Levi out.

[paladin]

Paladin--I wasn't being nasty. I didn't realize that the mere mention of Ross' name would illicit a flame war. I stay out of those anyway. If things start going psychotic, I tend to close the thread and move on.


I'm glad you caught that.......:cool:.... one of the reasons I don't even mention her name is that too often threads get side tracked by even discussing her, I have tried in all the years I've been here to stay far away from posting in those threads.....



I am a little surprised to read how many people didn't like Norman's work with the Tempts. "Papa Was a Rolling Stone" was the first Tempts song I ever heard, and I loved it as a kid--even today I think it's a classic.

I'm not, I know quite a few folks who feel the same way. I never have, times changed they changed. Its that simple........I think one of the best things that ever happened to The Temptations were the competitive juices that flowed between Smokey & Norman Whitfield, that in and of itself was a by product of the environment at Motown. The end result cannot be denied, The Temptations under Smokey were famous and bonafide stars, under Norman they became World renowned "Superstars" no pun intended..........well maybe...:cool::cool::cool::cool::cool:

[marv2]

True Diana followed the program more but her ego was out of control too-impacting the group terribly. Why did the Tempts have the power to kick David out while other groups didnt seem to have that power?

This is very true, but Diana Ross had a deep personal relationship with the owner of the company. David Ruffin did not.

[marv2]

I'm glad you caught that.......:cool:.... one of the reasons I don't even mention her name is that too often threads get side tracked by even discussing her, I have tried in all the years I've been here to stay far away from posting in those threads.....



I'm not, I know quite a few folks who feel the same way. I never have, times changed they changed. Its that simple........I think one of the best things that ever happened to The Temptations were the competitive juices that flowed between Smokey & Norman Whitfield, that in and of itself was a by product of the environment at Motown. The end result cannot be denied, The Temptations under Smokey were famous and bonafide stars, under Norman they became World renowned "Superstars" no pun intended..........well maybe...:cool::cool::cool::cool::cool:

It also helped that the Temptations as a group were tremendously talented and would have continued to produce great music regardless of whom was writing and producing for them at that time. They were just that BADDDDDD!!!!!

[Jimi LaLumia]

Gordy saw Ross as the flag bearer, the masthead, the Queen Mother of Motown, and let's face it, she was[[and obviously still is based on the 9,000 threads here)...lol
the only artist that was truly important to Gordy by 1967 was DIANA ROSS:
The Supremes?...not so much, the 'group' concept became a tool to give Ross the 'cool' factor, the youth factor...
remember[[those of us who do) groups were IN in the 60s, solo artists came into their own in the 70's...
even ELVIS faltered in the 60's; maybe he should have joined Herman's Hermits
and no one from the Tempts emerged as a 'personality all round' the way Ross .. certainly not David Ruffin, too compulsive and Eddie Kendricks was too laid back to be a true "STAR", with all which that entails..
really, we, the fans, helped pick Ross: I know I certainly did back then

[BobC]

I agree, Paladin, about the competition between Norman and Smokey being good for the Temptations. I am sure it was very difficult and risky for a group as popular as the Tempts to change their style so drastically--but they had to. I found most of Smokey's 60's music corny [[so did the Tempts, by the way) but he got better in the 70's--he grew. Norman's stuff was much more "of the day" when I got around to noticing the Temptations. Times changed.

You know, I've noticed that many groups made their best music when they were at each others' throats [[Beatles, Rolling Stones, Pink Floyd, Eagles, Labelle, 5th Dimension)--it's almost like the friction drives the creative process. At least for a while! I know the friction within the 5th Dimension, right before they split up, was due to half the group wanting to update their style, while the others wanted to stay with the same old formula. Just shows you can be trapped by your own success.

[paladin]

You know, I've noticed that many groups made their best music when they were at each others' throats

Moreover there are a number of things that contribute to the making of great music, most we don't like to talk about, stress, dissension, marriage, depression, divorce, drugs...etc....

[franjoy56]

"Berry Gordy was sorry FOR what happened to the Supremes"
This statement is not entirely correct in my
mind because Gordy took pains to make sure Flo was seen and not heard, what about all of the leads Flo should have received on album tracks that were never happened or in fact cut ie "O HOly Night" "These Boots Are Made For Walking" and lets not even talk about "People" thank goodness for "Long Gone Lover" & "Ain't That Good News" and we won't even discuss her contract settlement release, and if David Ruffin started acting up because of what happened to her I say good for you David. Florence Ballard's firing was one of the strongest tragedies of the Motown Story...PERIOD.

[soulster]

I agree, Paladin, about the competition between Norman and Smokey being good for the Temptations. I am sure it was very difficult and risky for a group as popular as the Tempts to change their style so drastically--but they had to. I found most of Smokey's 60's music corny [[so did the Tempts, by the way) but he got better in the 70's--he grew. Norman's stuff was much more "of the day" when I got around to noticing the Temptations. Times changed.


Don't forget Frank Wilson and Holland-Dosier-Holland! They produced some heavy Temptations hits too!

In the late 60s, almost everybody was looking to change and keep up with the times. So many social and political things were going on and Motown had to address them to stay relevant, although they did kicking and screaming all the way.

And, BTW, if some of you guys want to talk about the Supremes, can you start another thread? Thank you. This one's about David Ruffin and TheTemptations.

[soulster]

Having the Temptations all taking turns doing leads within songs wasn't an original idea, but brilliant. It also helped ward off any ego that might again arise from being a lead singer. It's just a good thing that Eddie Kendricks didn't have such a mind-blowing ego like David.

[BobC]

Fran--I wasn't saying David started acting out because of Florence Ballard, that wasn't what I meant at all. David Ruffin wanted to be Motown's male Diana Ross, and when the Supremes were renamed DR and the Supremes, David felt the Tempts should be renamed David Ruffin and the Temptations. He made this quite clear when they all did the TV show with the Supremes. The timing of this demand was very bad because number one, the other Temptations weren't going for it, and two, Berry was already fed up with the Supremes situation and Martha Reeves, and felt that he had to re-establish control over his acts. In the end, however, it wasn't Berry who made Ruffin go away, it was his fellow band-mates. They weren't about to play second fiddle, despite David's obvious value to the group. Eddie didn't want David to go--but he was out-voted.

[franjoy56]

Oh ok I misread you, I thought there was some sentimentality with Ruffin over Flo's ouster, however Ruffin did have issues with ego's and I guess his group mates had had enough of it, too bad it didn't transpire with the members of the Supremes, I was well aware of what happened on the TCB set when David confronted management on how the show was to be billed and his confronts with Ross, and the key's of the songs both singers done on the Ed Sullivan show in Nov. 67 until Berry stepped in and all was well in fairyland the Tempts won out and David was gone.

[marv2]

Fran--I wasn't saying David started acting out because of Florence Ballard, that wasn't what I meant at all. David Ruffin wanted to be Motown's male Diana Ross, and when the Supremes were renamed DR and the Supremes, David felt the Tempts should be renamed David Ruffin and the Temptations. He made this quite clear when they all did the TV show with the Supremes. The timing of this demand was very bad because number one, the other Temptations weren't going for it, and two, Berry was already fed up with the Supremes situation and Martha Reeves, and felt that he had to re-establish control over his acts. In the end, however, it wasn't Berry who made Ruffin go away, it was his fellow band-mates. They weren't about to play second fiddle, despite David's obvious value to the group. Eddie didn't want David to go--but he was out-voted.

Well both Berry Gordy and Diana Ross and I think Smokey have publicly stated more than once that the reason for the name changes to groups was so that they could command a higher fee, i.e. make more money. That's what they all have said over and over to explain things........

[Sugarchilehoneybaby]

Had David remained in The Temptations I believe that you would have begun to read in newspapers stories about the group...for all the WRONG reasons. The Tempts enjoyed a pretty clean reputation throughout their careers and generally maintained a positive image...at least so far as the public was concerned.

That's a great point. We have to remember that these were more conservative times, and it was harder for Black males to appeal to white folks than Black females. The Tempts had to be ebony princes at all times, or risk losing the Copa, the television specials, and crossover radio play.

David Ruffin's drug abuse - and domestic abuse of Tammi Terrell - would have been horrible press for the Temptations.

[Sugarchilehoneybaby]

True Diana followed the program more but her ego was out of control too-impacting the group terribly. Why did the Tempts have the power to kick David out while other groups didnt seem to have that power? Please for pete's sake, stick to the issue of David Ruffin and The Temptations. [[Ooops, I guess I just gave him top billing after all!)

[BobC]

Good PR but I never bought that. I think the name changes were for two reasons: 1. To appease certain egos, and 2: get the public used to hearing the lead singer's name so they can eventually go out on their own. The truth is that the Motown artists' fees were skyrocketing with their increased popularity anyway, so I am a bit skeptical over the story Berry and others have told about the various name changes. Anyway--I think recruiting Dennis Edwards was a great move. I always loved his voice. Totally different from Ruffin, of course, but I think that was a good thing.

You know I was just at the grocery store and "Get Ready" came on--but it sure wasn't the Eddie K version. It sounded like Dennis Edwards! Whoever was singing it had a deep, gruff voice. Anyone know who that would have been?

[candykamaine]

Good PR but I never bought that. I think the name changes were for two reasons: 1. To appease certain egos, and 2: get the public used to hearing the lead singer's name so they can eventually go out on their own. The truth is that the Motown artists' fees were skyrocketing with their increased popularity anyway, so I am a bit skeptical over the story Berry and others have told about the various name changes. Anyway--I think recruiting Dennis Edwards was a great move. I always loved his voice. Totally different from Ruffin, of course, but I think that was a good thing.

You know I was just at the grocery store and "Get Ready" came on--but it sure wasn't the Eddie K version. It sounded like Dennis Edwards! Whoever was singing it had a deep, gruff voice. Anyone know who that would have been?

There is a 1991 version of the song by the 1991 line up of the tempts with Ollie Woodson on lead. I think it could be that one. Did it have a techno type instrumental to it.

[BobC]

Candy--I'm not sure. I was grocery shopping and it was busy/noisy, so I probably never even heard the intro. I'll bet you're right, thought. It sounded like the Temptations sound--it wasn't just some lead singer with anonymous backing vocals.

[paladin]

I was going to say that Candy [[ you are sharp young lady ), it was from their Milestone LP........The tunes Celebrate & The Jones UK remix were super hot stepper cuts here in Chicago. But so many folks have cut the record it could have been anybody including Rare Earth. I have The UK import which is the best , the American version of The Jones has a funky rap by Alton Wookie Stewart which is ok, but not as good as The UK Jones. If memory serves Get Ready is a different mix as well. Good Album though........


4077



A1

Eenie, Meenie, Miinie, Moe
4:05



A2

Any Old Lovin' [[Just Won't Do)
4:17



A3

Hoops Of Fire
5:28



A4

We Should Be Makin' Love
4:08



A5

The Jones'
4:28



B1

Get Ready
4:29



B2

Corner Of My Heart
4:05



B3

Whenever You're Ready
5:10



B4

Do It Easy
4:48



B5

Wait A Minute

[soulster]

Please for pete's sake, stick to the issue of David Ruffin and The Temptations. [[Ooops, I guess I just gave him top billing after all!)

Shhhh! So did I! But he'll never know it! :) And thank you for sticking up with my request that these Diana Ross fans go somewhere else and quit crapping all over this thread.

I don't think it was so much that they only wanted to avoid controversy for the group, or maintain a certain image, it's that The Temptations were the company's most consistent moneymaker at that point, and they didn't want anyone to screw it up.

[smark21]

Candy--I'm not sure. I was grocery shopping and it was busy/noisy, so I probably never even heard the intro. I'll bet you're right, thought. It sounded like the Temptations sound--it wasn't just some lead singer with anonymous backing vocals.

Perhaps it was the version by Rare Earth? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N57HVNtzwvg

[arrr&bee]

Funny thing is that eddie wasn't real happy either and stated that he wanted to leave as far back as[67],someone stated that the temps found smokey's songs corny[since when???]the temps loved working with smokey even after he lost them to norman his contributions were welcome...no more water in the well[you think that paul wasn't greatful for that gem]now that you've won me,don't send me away[otis best lead],backstage..as for the name in front goes it was of course ego with david but remember that martha's name was already in front and we all always said[smokey and the miracles]right?

[BobC]

Arr&bee--I said the Tempts found his lyrics corny, I never said they didn't like working with Smokey. There is a Youtube vid of Otis talking about their reaction the first time they read some of lyrics Smokey wrote. He specifically pointed out the words to "The Way You Do the Things You Do" as being "corny." I completely agree. "A smile so bright you coulda been a candle..." and "the way you swept me off my feet, you could have been a broom"--I mean come on. Good songs overall but the lyrics, you have to admit, are a little on the cornball side.

[arrr&bee]

arr&bee--i said the tempts found his lyrics corny, i never said they didn't like working with smokey. There is a youtube vid of otis talking about their reaction the first time they read some of lyrics smokey wrote. He specifically pointed out the words to "the way you do the things you do" as being "corny." i completely agree. "a smile so bright you coulda been a candle..." and "the way you swept me off my feet, you could have been a broom"--i mean come on. Good songs overall but the lyrics, you have to admit, are a little on the cornball side.ok i hear you,i read that they found the lyrics amusing,but if he said corny it's cool..tempts forever!!

[BobC]

I suppose it all boils down to what works, corny or not--and Smokey wrote some of Motown's monster songs. I mean--can you imagine sitting down and writing "Fe fi fo fum, look out baby, cause here I come?" But it worked!

I think SR's lyrics got way better in later years.

[soulster]

Arr&bee--I said the Tempts found his lyrics corny, I never said they didn't like working with Smokey. There is a Youtube vid of Otis talking about their reaction the first time they read some of lyrics Smokey wrote. He specifically pointed out the words to "The Way You Do the Things You Do" as being "corny." I completely agree. "A smile so bright you coulda been a candle..." and "the way you swept me off my feet, you could have been a broom"--I mean come on. Good songs overall but the lyrics, you have to admit, are a little on the cornball side.

But, that song got them on the map! So did "My Girl". They shouldn't complain.

[Jimi LaLumia]

now you know why most Motown artists didn't get to write their own songs

[paladin]

Sure they may have been corny or amusing at the time, and certainly upon reflection, but remember their audiences were primarily teenagers and they were eating this stuff up. I was one of them and that sing song nursery rhyme type of song , Like Smokey's "That's What Love is Made of" was a perfect example of a simple song that was easily committed to memory and would be oft repeated by that target audience. Hell The Tempts and Miracles were just in their early twenty's.

Snakes, snails, puppy dog tales
Sugar, spice , everything nice
Yeah, Yeah, alright......


You don't come in assorted flavors like a package of Charms
And you wont stain my shirt, if you melt in my arms........
But to me you're candy, to me your candy.........


Those were some great days......

[arrr&bee]

sure they may have been corny or amusing at the time, and certainly upon reflection, but remember their audiences were primarily teenagers and they were eating this stuff up. I was one of them and that sing song nursery rhyme type of song , like smokey's "that's what love is made of" was a perfect example of a simple song that was easily committed to memory and would be oft repeated by that target audience. Hell the tempts and miracles were just in their early twenty's.

Snakes, snails, puppy dog tales
sugar, spice , everything nice
yeah, yeah, alright......


You don't come in assorted flavors like a package of charms
and you wont stain my shirt, if you melt in my arms........
But to me you're candy, to me your candy.........


Those were some great days......indeed they were...do they even make[charms]anymore,hehe...temps forever!!

[thisoldheart]

dylan said smokey was america's greatest living poet. and you shouldn't mess with dylan when it comes to music. and the lyrics to "the way you do the things you do" sound just perfect when mr. kendrick's sings them 'cuz he's got a voice so sweet, you know he coulda been ... a temptation ... oh, that's right, he was!

[StuBass1]

dylan said smokey was america's greatest living poet. and you shouldn't mess with dylan when it comes to music. and the lyrics to "the way you do the things you do" sound just perfect when mr. kendrick's sings them 'cuz he's got a voice so sweet, you know he coulda been ... a temptation ... oh, that's right, he was!

Actually Dylan never made that statement. That so called Bob Dylan quote was a creation of the Motown PR department.

[paladin]

indeed they were...do they even make[charms]anymore,hehe...temps forever!!


the lyrics to "the way you do the things you do" sound just perfect when mr. kendrick's sings them 'cuz he's got a voice so sweet, you know he coulda been ... a temptation ...

4082

Of course they still make em...lol...........


The Miracles and The Temptations were just like the dam Pepsi commercial...for those who think young..........Motown the sound of Young America... which was really interpreted as the Sound of Young Black America......

[smark21]

Actually Dylan never made that statement. That so called Bob Dylan quote was a creation of the Motown PR department.

I always wonder if Dylan was being sarcastic when he made that statement, though apparently it was a creation of the Motown PR dept. Didn't know that. Was that covered in Al Abrams' book?

[sunshineonacloudyday]

Dylan and Smokey couldn't be more opposite in their lyrical style. Perhaps I'm biased toward Smokey [note my screen name, lol] but I prefer the simplicity of Smokeys lyrics, which everyone around the world can relate to--young, old, rich, poor, etc...Dylan's lyrics are so abstruse, there are college courses devoted to exploring their meaning! Some of Smokeys material may have worn thin over the years, but the beauty and depth of his simple words are heartfelt and timeless.

[marv2]

Actually Dylan never made that statement. That so called Bob Dylan quote was a creation of the Motown PR department.

Oh yes Bob Dylan did [[call Smokey the greatest living poet). I've seen it on video tape of one of Bob's interviews during the sixties.

[StuBass1]

I always wonder if Dylan was being sarcastic when he made that statement, though apparently it was a creation of the Motown PR dept. Didn't know that. Was that covered in Al Abrams' book?

Actually I believe that Al stated on this very forum that it was he who came up with that very quote, although I'm not familiar with what Zimmerman may have said after that quote was released...but I'm also sure that all pop/rock songwriters must have had a great deal of respect for Smokeys accomplishments so early in his career. I haven't had the opportunity to read Al's book.

[thisoldheart]

i always had the feeling dylan made the statement rather flippantly to throw off his interviewer, but in typical dylan style he meant what he said. though their music is different as night and day, there has never been a moment when i didn't consider them both masters of their craft!

[BobC]

Dylan did say that. But I thought it was ridiculous. IMO Marvin Gaye, Stevie Wonder, Joan Armatrading, Nona Hendryx and other are/were far better lyricists.

[soulster]

Actually Dylan never made that statement. That so called Bob Dylan quote was a creation of the Motown PR department.

Sounds like slander. Seems it never got back to Dylan, or he would have protested.

[thisoldheart]

smokey's art is that he can pile on tons of phrases you've heard before, give 'em a twist, and get away with. if we tried it, we'd sound like fools!

[StuBass1]

Sounds like slander. Seems it never got back to Dylan, or he would have protested.

Perhaps Al Abrams could weigh in on this and tell the story on how it all came about. I remember reading that statement when I was a teenager. Quite possible it was just an embellishment on something Dylan did say. I doubt Dylan would have cared much about it either way..certainly not rising to the level of slander or libel.

[BobC]

I could swear I saw a video of Dylan saying exactly that. It was a few years ago, but I remember thinking it was an absurd statement.

[reese]

There is footage of a press conference where Dylan is asked "What poets do you dig?". He names Smokey Robinson, among others.

In his book, Al Abrams wrote that he received a memo from Berry saying that Smokey was one of the nation's greatest songwriters, and needed to be promoted as such in the media. Al mentioned it to Al Aronowitz, a writer who was also a very close friend of Dylan's. Aronowitz knew Dylan had praised Smokey's lyrics as being poetical.

Al asked Aronowitz for a quote from Dylan about Smokey, something along the lines of Smokey Robinson is America's Greatest Living Poet. Aronowitz thought about it, then decided to give Al the go ahead to attribute the quote to Bob without even telling him about it. "If Bob sees it in print, he'll think he said it. He's certainly never going to deny it."

Al wrote that he lived in fear every time he heard that Dylan was doing a major interview, thinking he might say "What the f**k? I never said that."

[BobC]

Interesting. And believable.

[motownlover1964]

A short piece from the interview with Dylan is included in the Motown 40 TV special. Reese is correct as that is what he was asked about "What poets do you dig?" One other poet Dylan mentioned, that I can recall, is Allen Ginsberg.

[texassoul]

I love the 2 songs below from the David Ruffin LP "David" that went unreleased for so long:

Anything That You Ask For http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8G4Rs9GlWs&feature=fvst
Don't Stop Loving Me http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRUB0k5NA5E

[marv2]

I could swear I saw a video of Dylan saying exactly that. It was a few years ago, but I remember thinking it was an absurd statement.

I think they used the clip of Bob Dylan making that comment for "Motown 40" that aired in 1998.

[marv2]

A short piece from the interview with Dylan is included in the Motown 40 TV special. Reese is correct as that is what he was asked about "What poets do you dig?" One other poet Dylan mentioned, that I can recall, is Allen Ginsberg.

That's it. That's where I saw it. Bob went on to declare himself the greatest male vocalist of all time! LOL!

[dzMusica]

Yes, If you're out of control. Then you got to go.

[jobeterob]

Motown was so good at "faking it" and in the 60's, it was easy to do it and not get caught.

[BobC]

True, Jobete. Knowing the Motown story as I do, I was shocked that people were having nervous breakdowns over the fact that somebody else sang on the Milli Vanilli records. I was like uhhhh that's been going on for years...

[arrr&bee]

Milli vanilli?????!!! Were they in the temps..back to the subject at hand...david[remember him]???

[paladin]

Milli vanilli?????!!! Were they in the temps..back to the subject at hand...david[remember him]???

That was too dam funny.......