No Supremes On Stop in the Name of Love etc.

[jobeterob]

In the booklet that goes with the Supremes Singles Collection, it says there are no Supremes on

1. Stop in the Name of Love - that the Andantes have the released version

2. In and Out of Love - the Supremes vocals were replaced with the Andantes for the released version

3. No Supremes on any of the cuts on Merry Christmas - it's all the Andantes and children.

As time goes on, it is starting to appear that the group really was Diana Ross and some backup singers that we formed a connection to but weren't really on a lot of the records - nothing after the Reflections time period and questions raised about a number of songs prior to that period - You Can't Hurry Love, Reflections.

Kind of big surprise to me; I listen to the songs on the singles collection which has excellent sound and for all those years, I was convinced I was hearing Mary, Florence and Cindy.

[carlo]

I'm not surprised. Mary and Flo still sang on a lot of tracks. The Country, Western and Pop album also has Mary and Flo with the Andantes on some of the tracks [[ie. Funny How Time Slips Away).

These revelations don't ruin my appreciation for these ladies and their music.

[motony]

I say BS and that someone has been in those "vaults" and mislabeled stuff to either boost the case for the lead singer or to screw with the real fans.Thats the Supremes on Stop.I know on the Deliver the Singles for Martha & the Vandellas that in the booklet it had additional vocals by Andantes on several tracks that were just Roz & Annette.This whole Andante thing has been blown out of proportion.

[bradsupremes]

This Supremes/Andantes discussion has always been a fascination to me. Prior to 1967, whenever the Andantes did background work on a Supremes track, they truly did their best to sound like Mary and Flo. Take a listen to such tracks as "Stop! In The Name of Love," "Slow Down," "Whisper You Love Me Boy," etc. which have the Andantes on them. It really does sound like Mary and Flo. After 1967, the pressure cooker of the recording studio increased so the Andantes were adding their vocals to tracks without knowing who the tracks were assigned to, thus they no longer were trying to mimic the sound of the group the tracks were assigned to. There are a few exceptions though post-1967. Take a listen to "The Beginning Of The End Of Love," "You've Been So Wonderful To Me," "How Long Has That Evening Train Been Gone," and "You Gave Me Love." The Andantes are trying their best to sound like Mary and Cindy and it's believable.

Carlo is right though. This does not diminish my appreciation for the music and group nor does it diminish the importance of the group's work. The Supremes as a group still broke down barriers.

[captainjames]

Funny that this has been brought up after al these years but I have never thought I heard Mary and Flo on "Stop" or " Cant Hurry Love". Mary, Flo and later Cindy had to know this right ?

[bradsupremes]

Also....I've come to realize that the songs where people question and debate who is singing the background vocals are the songs I begin to pay attention to such as "You Can't Hurry Love" and "Reflections." There are four songs, at least to my knowledge, that were done by Mary and Marlene Barrow. The background vocals for "You Can't Hurry Love," "Misery Makes Its Home In My Heart," and "Come On And See Me" were recorded July 5, 1966 and then "Reflections" on May 9, 1967. The Andantes were later dubbed onto "Come On And See Me." I have a feeling there are a few more Mary & Marlene tracks, but I'll get to that later...

[captainjames]

I am sorry I do not hear Mary on "Stop" or "Reflections".

[RossHolloway]

On the groups #1 Singles collection on the long fade version of Stop! I clearly hear Florence at the end ..this song version goes longer than the 45 version of the song.

[jobeterob]

I believe there was an attempt by Universal on the Singles Collection, to lay down a definitive historical record for the real fans on exactly who is singing.

And it is really only the fans that are interested in these subtleties. The Supremes will always be Supreme with Diana singing in front of Mary and Flo and Cindy, always loved and remembered.

[motony]

I find it funny & ironic that so many want to credit the Andantes for everything that their one shot actual release on VIP credited to the Andantes and the lead singer is Ann Bogan.

[marybrewster]

I can't say for certain I hear Mary, but I do hear Flo in the released version of "Stop". Especially on the words [[in the name of) LOVE [[before you) BREAK [[my) HEART.

[jobeterob]

From the Singles Booklet:

"Diana Mary and Florence recorded the song but four days later the tune was re-cut with the Andantes. This became the released version that received a Grammy Nomination for Best Contemporary Rock & Roll Performance by a Group. It lost to Flowers on the Wall by the Statler Brothers.

The Singles Collection is produced by Andrew Skurow and George Solomon; executive producer Harry Weinger.

[thaperson]

Forget who sang. How on earth did they lose the rock and roll award to a country group?

[luke]

Well said motony and let us not believe Andy etc who actually work there and do the compilations and have clear ad infinitum about these issues. lolol Anything to diminish Mary and Flo!

[jillfoster]

Something just ain't right here. Don't you all have the Reflections DVD? when the menus get ready to come up there is the acapella vocal of "Stop" playing, if you don't know that's Flo, your'e pretty deaf.

[carlo]

I think the confusion is coming from Rob's first post, which says that The Andantes got the released version of Stop! In the Name of Love. This is not the case. I was always under the impression that Mary and Flo are in fact on the record, but the Andantes were added in as well. I just checked out the acapella version on Youtube and I can hear Flo on there...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7t_l2rws-8

[jillfoster]

It is confusing, carlo.... it's like somebody pointing at the sky and sayin it ain't blue.

[marv2]

I hear Mary Wilson clearly on "Reflections" so I don't know what this guy Rob is talking about. I think it is just another sad attempt to give Diana Ross all the credit when it just isn't true.

[marv2]

I think the confusion is coming from Rob's first post, which says that The Andantes got the released version of Stop! In the Name of Love. This is not the case. I was always under the impression that Mary and Flo are in fact on the record, but the Andantes were added in as well. I just checked out the acapella version on Youtube and I can hear Flo on there...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7t_l2rws-8

I don't know if someone has been smoking or whatever, but I hear Flo, Mary and Diane clearly on this record. They sound so good. They sound like angels.

[jobeterob]

That's the wording from the CD booklet...........for both Stop in the Name of Love and the Children's Christmas Song. Wording from Universal. Make of it what you will I guess. Similar wording for In and Out of Love. I did get an email today saying the wording was deliberate.

[franjoy56]

i don't care what that book says after all these years someone is coming out and saying that
mary and flo are not on sitnol horse feathers, I hear Flo and I also hear two altos one must be
Mary the other possibly and Andante, i cannot buy this theory of the Andantes taking credit
for songs that are clearly Mary and especially Flo. Next theylll be saying the andantes are
on Come See About me, & back in my arms again and that girl singing backup on wdolg is not mary but an andante soundalike. shameful.

[jobeterob]

Ya, they knew these new revelations would burn some people ~ and then it comes in the week of the Lifetime Achievement Award.

The best songs are the ones with Flo clearly in the background.........Whisper You Love Me Boy, Nothing But Heartaches, It's All Your Fault, You Keep Me Hangin On etc.

[thisoldheart]

i cannot buy this theory of the Andantes taking credit
for songs that are clearly Mary and especially Flo. Next theylll be saying the andantes are
on Come See About me, & back in my arms again and that girl singing backup on wdolg is not mary but an andante soundalike. shameful.
first of all the andantes aren't "taking credit" for anything! secondly, it now makes sense that mary and flo would have been hard pressed to provide a full background sound. diana is certainly not on those backgrounds because if anyone has a distinctive voice, diana is the one. so it does make sense that the andantes could certainly have been called in to help fill in the sound.

i also think the point that the andantes on the early songs probably sound more like the supremes because they knew who they were backing up, whereas in the latter years they had no idea who might be singing on the final released version makes a whole lotta sense.

it also seems to me that as the supremes became hugely famous, motown would have wanted the most professional sound for them ... meaning smoothing out the sound to appeal to the largest possible audience. read: middle of the road! they could now afford to let gladys and others stick to hitting it big on the r&r charts, and not necessarily do that well on the pop charts.

was also reading the new notes on the supremes complete singles and wondered if there could be another "stop!" version perhaps used on an album that included mary and flo. the written notes, much like the notes on the "marvin and tammi complete session", seem to be very, very carefully worded. too carefully worded!

i am getting perturbed by posters that just don't want to hear any other versions of the 1960's party line version put out by the motown publicity machine. i'm glad these people aren't history teachers or we'd be in big trouble! and i am not saying i believe every possible scenario, but motown's checkered past makes the company fair game for much speculation!

also, remember motown was a great big family in the early years. anybody could be on those songs. i remember ms. reeves used to get up of her secretarial desk and run into the studio. now we hear that eddie holland often sang backup. i'm sure none of this is recorded on any session log books. they were all happy and excited to do anything to help out anyone. most people feel that way in their late teens and early twenties. it is later when you realize your house payment is due that you start remembering all that you did for a pittance while the boss and his sisters were sitting' pretty!

and on a final note: my appreciation for the andantes has changed and taken a 180 degree turn, based not on the questionable records, but on their work with the latter day marvelettes. i think they really work well with wanda's sultry voice, whereas the marvelettes work better with the rougher sound of gladys.

stay positive! remember: whether a particular person is on a certain record is really only important if you are interested in history, like me! for god's sake, we know each and everyone of them can and did sing!!!

[marv2]

Ya, they knew these new revelations would burn some people ~ and then it comes in the week of the Lifetime Achievement Award.

The best songs are the ones with Flo clearly in the background.........Whisper You Love Me Boy, Nothing But Heartaches, It's All Your Fault, You Keep Me Hangin On etc.


those records have Mary, Diane and Flo on them. Sorry to burst your bubble.

[luke]

Marv-are you sure Diane Earle is on them? I heard that Telma Hopkins was often brought in to.....:)

[Motown4Ever518]

Thisoldheart,

Very well put. A record company that has no problem with using tire chains, stomping on a piece of wood, or banging on a cigarette ashtray is to me very interested in putting out the best product that they can. Which would carry over to recording of some of the groups by augmenting the group with other singers, or replacing the singers. I read the Andantes book and at no point did I get the sense that it was anything other than a fun 9-5, but a job none the less. Luckily for them, they were like only 1% of world, they worked at a job that they loved. And have shown trmendous class by not running all over the place saying that they sang on this song or that song.

[motony]

"the company" & their spokespersons have always tried to diminish the importance of the artists who sold the records to the buying public & paid for the concert tickets.As the years went by & the recordings were repackaged resold to new generations & the artists rightfully wanted their fair share it became more important to diminsh these artists as to their individual contribution for court cases ect. I love the Gordy family & what they accomplished but it is kinda amazing that they all lived lavishly[[and deservedly so) but none of the artists besides Diana Ross never lived more then a middle class lifestyle , but most worse off.Where the Motown artists of the 60's really lost out compared to their contemporaries in the business were the LIVE performance fees since Motown controlled every aspect of the artists career.For example the Crystals told me "Thank God Phil Spector only controlled our recording career".

[danman869]

OK, what makes someone think that The Andantes are the only ones on the background vocals of the released version of "Stop! In The Name Of Love"? In the new "More Hits: Expanded Edition," it says in the timeline: "January 5, 1965: 'Stop! In The Name Of Love' is cut for the Supremes. The girls dub-in their vocals on January 7 and again on January 11 WITH HELP FROM THE ANDANTES. The latter becomes the released version." I read "WITH HELP" to be that Mary and Florence [[and Diana?) are AUGMENTED with an overdub by [[or group recording with) The Andantes--just like would be done on many Marvelettes tunes and other songs. A mixture--filling out the sound. SWEETENING.

I love The Andantes and their presence doesn't lessen my love for any song. But what's the point of bringing this up?

[BobC]

I have heard clips of D, M and F singing this song live many times and they all sounded great--so why would they need somebody else to sing it? I can see adding some vocals to round it all out, but I am very skeptical that neither F nor M are on that record. This song came out at the peak of their winning streak and I think Flo would have raised hell if her voice were replaced. Why have we not heard about this, when we have known for decades that M and C were not singing on some of the later tracks like "Love Child?" I read an interview with Gordy a while back and he said the best thing about the original Supremes was that they could sing acapella anytime, anywhere-and sound great. So why replace them?

I think this is nonsense. Just the fact that if Mary isn't directly involved in writing the liner notes, Motown usually gets half the Supremes story wrong. Remember how at Motown 25 they thought Mary Wilson was Mary Wells? Or what about that 70's Supremes collection that had Diana Ross on the cover? Just goes to show Motown's indifference towards anybody but Diana Ross, which is sad. The fans know better than Motown most of the time.

[BobC]

Dan--I don't think anyone objects to the Adantes being on there, it's the part about M and F not being on it at all that bugs people.

[motony]

its a discussion by people who love the music & everyone is free to express their view about it. I love the Andantes too, especially their work with Mary Wells, but the Andantes didn't sell the records & they didn't do the hard work...on the road LIVE.

[floyjoy678]

I think it's Mary and Flo with the Andantes only because if you listen to At the Copa when they're performing Stop! it sounds almost identical to the studio recording, the vocals that is. I hear at least 6 voices in the background of the studio version, many people thought that it was just Marlene Barrow helping out Mary and Flo on the song but I think all three of the Andantes are there with them.

[carlo]

I love The Andantes and their presence doesn't lessen my love for any song. But what's the point of bringing this up?

The so called revelations in the first post of this thread have been known by most die-hard fans for years. However, the factoid in the first post about Mary and Flo not being on Stop! is incorrect.

I agree with you, Marv, in regards to "Reflections". I had a discussion with a member of this forum a couple of months ago and we both listened to the isolated background vocals from "Reflections" and Mary is clearly on there. We both heard her.

[jillfoster]

The so called revelations in the first post of this thread have been known by most die-hard fans for years. However, the factoid in the first post about Mary and Flo not being on Stop! is incorrect.

I agree with you, Marv, in regards to "Reflections". I had a discussion with a member of this forum a couple of months ago and we both listened to the isolated background vocals from "Reflections" and Mary is clearly on there. We both heard her.

Especially when you listen to the extended version with the acapella cold ending, Mary is clear as a bell there. What Danman posted about the liner notes from "More hits", to me, seems perfectly reasonable. But there's no way that Flo is not there... and I hear Mary as well... she just doens't stick out as much. I have a sneaking suspicion that someone is using recording logs, [[which may or may not be accurate) instead of their EARS. Wasn't Flo's "O holy night" found on a tape reel that was labelled as having no vocals? Having said that..... whoever wrote the text just might not have gotten the sentence worded exactly right, and made it seem that the Andantes, REPLACED, and not AUGMENTED Flo and Mary.

[jobeterob]

Perhaps they are throwing on the Andantes overtop the Supremes and sometimes it is all there.

In the Someday We'll Be Together section is says: He's My Sunny Boy was lifted from Love Child for the flip side and here there is some consolation that Mary Wilson and Cindy Birdsong are singing background.

How many people bought this CD? The sound is the best I've ever heard............but I'm no audiophile.

It says: "Track annotations and essays by George Solomon and Andrew Skurow, edited and revisited from original research and authorship by Keith Hughes and Bill Dahl for The Complete Motown Singles series."

Not exactly a bunch of novices; they must have known what they were getting into.

[smark21]

Interesting that the 50th Anniversary and the More Hits Expanded edition were released within weeks of each other and that the accompanying booklets would have conflicting statements on who exactly was singing background on Stop. My ears tell me it's Flo, Mary and Andantes

[jillfoster]

Interesting that the 50th Anniversary and the More Hits Expanded edition were released within weeks of each other and that the accompanying booklets would have conflicting statements on who exactly was singing background on Stop. My ears tell me it's Flo, Mary and Andantes

I absolutely agree.

[smark21]

All the controversy on what Supremes songs have Andantes to augment or replace Mary, Flo and Cindy are yet another side effect of the deep seated fan wars amongst various Supremes fan camps. The Andantes are just not as controversial when it comes to their presence on Vandellas, Marvelettes, Velvelettes and 4 Tops recordings.

[Roger Polhill]

I don`t have a problem with the Andantes vocals fortifying or replacing backgrounds for the star acts. I think of them as sweetening along with strings and horns.The Four Tops sound was certainly enhanced and they enjoyed working with them.The Funk Brothers were the most important aspect, without them the sound was very thin and white.

[marv2]

Marv-are you sure Diane Earle is on them? I heard that Telma Hopkins was often brought in to.....:)


I am not sure if diane ross is on them [[ask Valerie Simpson!) I do know that Mary Wilson and Florence Glenda Ballard are on them!

[marv2]

The so called revelations in the first post of this thread have been known by most die-hard fans for years. However, the factoid in the first post about Mary and Flo not being on Stop! is incorrect.

I agree with you, Marv, in regards to "Reflections". I had a discussion with a member of this forum a couple of months ago and we both listened to the isolated background vocals from "Reflections" and Mary is clearly on there. We both heard her.

I wouldn't even dare waste Mary's time by asking silly questions like this when I have my own ears and know all too well what she and Florence sound like. They sounded like angels when they sang harmony and I know when I hear them on recordings.

Merry Christmas everyone!

Marv

[marv2]

I don`t have a problem with the Andantes vocals fortifying or replacing backgrounds for the star acts. I think of them as sweetening along with strings and horns.The Four Tops sound was certainly enhanced and they enjoyed working with them.The Funk Brothers were the most important aspect, without them the sound was very thin and white.

That is exactly what they [[the Andantes) were used for on Motown recordings ......as instrumentation. To augment a sound that the producers were shooting for. Nothing ,more. They are also NOT on all recordings done at Motown.

[jobeterob]

Very true Smark; it's a lot bigger a deal that the Andantes were Supremes rather than Marvelettes, Vandellas, Velvelettes or 4 Tops. But then, the Supremes were a much bigger act than those groups and their cultural impact was greater. And they also spawned an icon that starred in the movies and was a big success on her own.

I don't see that it makes a lot of difference that the Andantes may have been the Supremes on a lot of the singles; I think Flo's voice was the most enjoyed voice with Diana's for the fans, as popular as Marvin's or Lionel's or Eddie's.

ThisOldHeart is very right - there's some careful wording going on in the booklet. And a very clear understanding that this was going to put some noses out of joint. I got an email the other day from a former SD'er saying maybe now it would be acceptable to post on here saying you couldn't hear Mary or Flo on Stop in the Name of Love or Reflections or You Can't Hurry Love and you wouldn't be accused of treason or diminishing Mary and Flo. But that should never happen anyway.

Brad, why do you say the Supremes aren't on Reflections? I've never seen that said with the authority of someone from Universal behind it.

[marv2]

Very true Smark; it's a lot bigger a deal that the Andantes were Supremes rather than Marvelettes, Vandellas, Velvelettes or 4 Tops. But then, the Supremes were a much bigger act than those groups and their cultural impact was greater. And they also spawned an icon that starred in the movies and was a big success on her own.

I don't see that it makes a lot of difference that the Andantes may have been the Supremes on a lot of the singles; I think Flo's voice was the most enjoyed voice with Diana's for the fans, as popular as Marvin's or Lionel's or Eddie's.

ThisOldHeart is very right - there's some careful wording going on in the booklet. And a very clear understanding that this was going to put some noses out of joint. I got an email the other day from a former SD'er saying maybe now it would be acceptable to post on here saying you couldn't hear Mary or Flo on Stop in the Name of Love or Reflections or You Can't Hurry Love and you wouldn't be accused of treason or diminishing Mary and Flo. But that should never happen anyway.

Brad, why do you say the Supremes aren't on Reflections? I've never seen that said with the authority of someone from Universal behind it.

The Andantes were never the Supremes. The Andantes were small group of obscure session singers hired and paid by Motown and used as instrumentation on some records. Only here are they even talked about.

[Roger Polhill]

And so they should be talked about as they with the Funk Brothers were so important to the "sound". I don`t rate DRATS. too highly in the scheme of things as I find Diana`s voice too popy.I do however have all of their recordings and a great many video tracks as a good Motown collector should.To me the Supremes were Diana Ross and background singers whoever they were.Louvain, Marlene and Jackie plus the others should be feted like James, Earl, Benny, Robert and Jack. They all add up to the fabulous Motown Sound.

[marv2]

And so they should be talked about as they with the Funk Brothers were so important to the "sound". I don`t rate DRATS. too highly in the scheme of things as I find Diana`s voice too popy.I do however have all of their recordings and a great many video tracks as a good Motown collector should.To me the Supremes were Diana Ross and background singers whoever they were.Louvain, Marlene and Jackie plus the others should be feted like James, Earl, Benny, Robert and Jack. They all add up to the fabulous Motown Sound.

I disagree with your description/definition of the Supremes. The Supremes were Florence Ballard, Mary Wilson and Diana Ross!

They were also Barbara Martin, Jean Terrell, Cindy Birdsong, Lynda Lawrence, Scherrie Payne and Susaye Greene!

[bradsupremes]

Brad, why do you say the Supremes aren't on Reflections? I've never seen that said with the authority of someone from Universal behind it.

I never said that the Supremes were not on "Reflections." Please don't misquote me. All I said was that Florence was not on it. It's very clear when you listen to the track that it is Mary along with someone who is not Florence. I firmly believe it's Marlene Barrow since it is the same voice you hear on "You Can't Hurry Love" and "Misery Makes Its Home In My Heart." Compare the soprano singing on "Reflections" to the soprano singing on "Going Down For The Third Time," "He's All I Got," "I Hear A Symphony," etc. You will notice they are two different singers.

[Roger Polhill]

Sorry Marv, it`s only my opinion which carries no weight whatsoever only to me.Diana Ross was the lead singer on all the hits.

[thisoldheart]

I disagree with your description/definition of the Supremes. The Supremes were Florence Ballard, Mary Wilson and Diana Ross!

They were also Barbara Martin, Jean Terrell, Cindy Birdsong, Lynda Lawrence, Scherrie Payne and Scherrie Payne

these women were certainly the face of the supremes through their many incantations, but not necessarily always the voices on the released recordings! still trying my to wrap my head around the notion that who sings on the tracks diminishes these women's importance. they toured, sang live in concert and tv, and were the spokespeople for the group. they worked their tails off. it is no wonder the 24 hour motown machine needed to use an army to get them through their usually hectic schedule!

[jobeterob]

Brad, you sure know your Supreme voices.

There certainly is a difference between what you hear on the background of Reflections and what you hear on Going Down For The Third Time; and they are side by side on the Singles Collection ~ another reason you want the CD. And yes, Reflections and You Can't Hurry Love sound very different than the voice in the background of Going Down For The Third Time. Florence was definitely there in the later song.

That all makes a great deal of sense and I agree that the Andantes are almost totally unknown outside the fan circle and this all makes little difference to all those people attending Diana's concerts these days and who hear the songs on oldies radio.

[marv2]

Brad, you sure know your Supreme voices.

There certainly is a difference between what you hear on the background of Reflections and what you hear on Going Down For The Third Time; and they are side by side on the Singles Collection ~ another reason you want the CD. And yes, Reflections and You Can't Hurry Love sound very different than the voice in the background of Going Down For The Third Time. Florence was definitely there in the later song.

That all makes a great deal of sense and I agree that the Andantes are almost totally unknown outside the fan circle and this all makes little difference to all those people attending Diana's concerts these days and who hear the songs on oldies radio.

Nor to those who attended the 100 concert performances Mary Wilson gave in 2011 here and around the World!

[rod_rick]

I never said that the Supremes were not on "Reflections." Please don't misquote me. All I said was that Florence was not on it. It's very clear when you listen to the track that it is Mary along with someone who is not Florence. I firmly believe it's Marlene Barrow since it is the same voice you hear on "You Can't Hurry Love" and "Misery Makes Its Home In My Heart." Compare the soprano singing on "Reflections" to the soprano singing on "Going Down For The Third Time," "He's All I Got," "I Hear A Symphony," etc. You will notice they are two different singers.


Let me throw something out here. Has anyone ever considered that the producer may have wanted a different sound, so just maybe had Florence to sing differently. For example on "Baby Love", Florence's tones are rounder until she get to the "Need You" and the ladies voices were changing as well, so Florence just might be on those recording.

[jobeterob]

This is from the essay on Reflections on the Singles Collection:

Ladies and Gentlemen, Diana Ross & the Supremes

Ms. Ross had been the focal point of the group for years. Now her starring role was confirmed on the label of Reflections and further defined on the subsequent album release Diana Ross and the Supremes Greatest Hits.

Reflections and its hook line "the way life used to be," proved to be bittersweet: although Florence Ballard took part in the sessions, by the time the single was released she had been officially let go.

[thaperson]

The Andates deserve the credit for all of the songs that they sang on. Some of those songs have been played all across the world for over forty years.

I can understand being uncomfortable with the truth it really reveals, but give credit where credit is due, people.

[carlo]

I agree, thaperson.

[jobeterob]

I remember in the Andantes book, while Louvain never came off as bitter or a complainer, she did at the end say the acknowledgements for the Andantes were sparse.

As time goes on and we hear more and more, you can see why there are some resentments in both the Andantes and Supremes camps.

I wonder what the Andantes, the Supremes, the Vandellas, the Marvelettes, Martha Reeves and Diana Ross knew of what Motown and HDH were doing or if they knew nothing.

I expect the Andantes got paid a session fee but never got any kind of royalties.

[motony]

nor should they get any royalties, they were paid session singers just like the muscians. They had a steady pay check.

[Motown Andy]

The Supremes story is a very complicated one, and when discussing who sang on which records, it is sensitive not only to the Supremes, but to the Andantes, and to the fans. What we report may be loved by many, and in some situations, may not be popular, but it is always important that we tell the truth. Our motivation is that of preserving the Supremes legacy, not diminishing it. If we report a kind word about one Supreme, Mary, Flo or Diana, it is often misconstrued as a slap to the other two ladies. On any project I work on, I can assure you that this is not, and will never be the case. I support them, and I love them, both professionally and personally.

There’s a recent thread about what songs are Tammi Terrell, and what songs are Valerie Simpson. The thread is long and the argument is interesting, but the truth can be found in the research, and in listening to the isolated vocals on the multi-tracks. However, the answers we could give, in the Tammi scenario, in the Supremes scenario, or in other artists scenarios may not be what fans want to hear. I’d rather tell the truth, for myself, and for an accurate history, than to be popular. And at the end of the day, all I can do is present the facts, even if they are conflicting, and if there is no clear answer, the listener can be the judge. Sometimes we have an answer, sometimes we don’t.

The Supremes/Andantes situation does exist, but it has absolutely been blown out of proportion. The Supremes background vocals by Mary and Flo, are on most of their records leading up to Flo’s departure. But there are some they are not on, pure and simple. Mary Wilson has acknowledged this, Florence Ballard in interviews acknowledged this, Diana Ross has acknowledged this.

As one learns the Supremes voices, it becomes more clear when you hear them. Once you learn the Andantes voices, the picture comes right into focus. And if you’re lucky enough to see the Motown session logs and tape cards, or get to hear the isolated vocals, there becomes no doubt when you hear the Supremes, the Andantes, or both.

When I am asked, I often give fans one example to listen to. There are many, but here is my favorite one. Listen to the Supremes version of “Fancy Passes” [[issued on Never-Before-Released-Masters and the same version is the bonus track version issued on There’s A Place For Us). Mary and Flo have a spoken passage. If you know their voices from this song, you’ll also know that when you hear the same spoken passage in the Barbara McNair version, that those girls are the Andantes. Listen to the same parts, learn the two different sets of vocals. Now go listen to other Supremes songs you may have in question.

Stop! In The Name Of Love is the latest hot topic, so I’ll acknowledge it here. Listen to the alternate from disc 2 of More Hits, also in a different mix on the box set. Now listen to the live versions on At The Copa, or the video from the Hollywood Palace. They are all consistent. Now listen to the released “hit” version. The voice you are hearing, is Jackie Hicks. Go back to McNair’s Fancy Passes, you’ll hear Jackie there. You’ll hear her on Run Run Run. But you’ll also hear her clearly on Ask The Lonely by the Four Tops, I Heard It Through The Grapevine by Marvin Gaye and dozens of other non-Supremes songs

I’m sure that regardless of what I could say, some will argue forever. I respect everyone’s opinions. But, it is what it is. More importantly, this is not the first time this information has been suggested, discussed or challenged. Nor will it be the last. I can only confirm what I know.

This does not, and will not tarnish the Supremes reputation as the greatest female group of all-time. The roads they paved for others must be acknowledged and respected. What they accomplished has never been duplicated.

I’ll save the discussion about every other Supremes song for another day. If they weren’t on a particular song, well, it is what it is. They’re still on literally hundreds of other songs. Mary Wilson is still singing these hits today, Diana Ross is still singing this hits today. Diana and Mary’s legacies separately, and together as the Supremes, with Florence [[and Cindy, respectfully) will last long after we’re all gone. I personally love them, they are incredible women. The people I work with love them too, as I know all of you do as well. I have nothing but love and respect for each of these ladies, for all nine of them actually, and will continue to support what they did, and continue to do. I hope you will also.

[luke]

So are you saying it's Jackie, Flo and Mary on the version Jackie is on??

[Sugarchilehoneybaby]

I have heard clips of D, M and F singing this song live many times and they all sounded great--so why would they need somebody else to sing it? I can see adding some vocals to round it all out, but I am very skeptical that neither F nor M are on that record. This song came out at the peak of their winning streak and I think Flo would have raised hell if her voice were replaced. Why have we not heard about this, when we have known for decades that M and C were not singing on some of the later tracks like "Love Child?" I read an interview with Gordy a while back and he said the best thing about the original Supremes was that they could sing acapella anytime, anywhere-and sound great. So why replace them?

I think this is nonsense. Just the fact that if Mary isn't directly involved in writing the liner notes, Motown usually gets half the Supremes story wrong. Remember how at Motown 25 they thought Mary Wilson was Mary Wells? Or what about that 70's Supremes collection that had Diana Ross on the cover? Just goes to show Motown's indifference towards anybody but Diana Ross, which is sad. The fans know better than Motown most of the time.

BobC,

I could understand your point in the older compilations, but seriously, for the last 10 or so years, Harry, Andy, & George have been handling the fact-finding and minutiae on these marvelous reissues, and those guys KNOW THEIR MOTOWN. In fact, George has been involved in Supremes everything since the 25th Anniversary Collection...all the way to the 50th Anniversary Collection!

I do not think that Andy/Harry/George are getting any facts wrong.

As for Mary's accuracy in her recollections...or Diana's for that matter...there are bound to be things that even THEY weren't aware of! Very likely, a lot of this stuff is [[or was) known only by H-D-H, Berry, and possibly Russ Terrana [[since he mixed and mastered many, many Motown singles from the 60s through the 80s.

Finally, how come no one ever gets bents out of shape that the Four Tops records sound mainly like Levi Stubbs & The Andantes? It's not inconceivable that the Andantes - marvelously talented professional singers - either fleshed out - or even replaced - the original backing vocal tracks on some Supremes sides.

And if they did - and it sure sounds like they did - would H-D-H or Berry WANT to tell Mary and, especially, Flo? Considering her legendary temper, if she had known, Berry might not have even been able to function "down there" to be able to able to conceive Miss Rhonda!! ;)

[midnight johnny]

Andy....thanks so much for RE-clarifying. Happy New Year!
John

[luke]

Im still confused!

[Roberta75]

Im still confused!


You are? Bless.

[jillfoster]

The Supremes story is a very complicated one, and when discussing who sang on which records, it is sensitive not only to the Supremes, but to the Andantes, and to the fans. What we report may be loved by many, and in some situations, may not be popular, but it is always important that we tell the truth. Our motivation is that of preserving the Supremes legacy, not diminishing it. If we report a kind word about one Supreme, Mary, Flo or Diana, it is often misconstrued as a slap to the other two ladies. On any project I work on, I can assure you that this is not, and will never be the case. I support them, and I love them, both professionally and personally.

There’s a recent thread about what songs are Tammi Terrell, and what songs are Valerie Simpson. The thread is long and the argument is interesting, but the truth can be found in the research, and in listening to the isolated vocals on the multi-tracks. However, the answers we could give, in the Tammi scenario, in the Supremes scenario, or in other artists scenarios may not be what fans want to hear. I’d rather tell the truth, for myself, and for an accurate history, than to be popular. And at the end of the day, all I can do is present the facts, even if they are conflicting, and if there is no clear answer, the listener can be the judge. Sometimes we have an answer, sometimes we don’t.




The Supremes/Andantes situation does exist, but it has absolutely been blown out of proportion. The Supremes background vocals by Mary and Flo, are on most of their records leading up to Flo’s departure. But there are some they are not on, pure and simple. Mary Wilson has acknowledged this, Florence Ballard in interviews acknowledged this, Diana Ross has acknowledged this.

As one learns the Supremes voices, it becomes more clear when you hear them. Once you learn the Andantes voices, the picture comes right into focus. And if you’re lucky enough to see the Motown session logs and tape cards, or get to hear the isolated vocals, there becomes no doubt when you hear the Supremes, the Andantes, or both.

When I am asked, I often give fans one example to listen to. There are many, but here is my favorite one. Listen to the Supremes version of “Fancy Passes” [[issued on Never-Before-Released-Masters and the same version is the bonus track version issued on There’s A Place For Us). Mary and Flo have a spoken passage. If you know their voices from this song, you’ll also know that when you hear the same spoken passage in the Barbara McNair version, that those girls are the Andantes. Listen to the same parts, learn the two different sets of vocals. Now go listen to other Supremes songs you may have in question.

Stop! In The Name Of Love is the latest hot topic, so I’ll acknowledge it here. Listen to the alternate from disc 2 of More Hits, also in a different mix on the box set. Now listen to the live versions on At The Copa, or the video from the Hollywood Palace. They are all consistent. Now listen to the released “hit” version. The voice you are hearing, is Jackie Hicks. Go back to McNair’s Fancy Passes, you’ll hear Jackie there. You’ll hear her on Run Run Run. But you’ll also hear her clearly on Ask The Lonely by the Four Tops, I Heard It Through The Grapevine by Marvin Gaye and dozens of other non-Supremes songs

I’m sure that regardless of what I could say, some will argue forever. I respect everyone’s opinions. But, it is what it is. More importantly, this is not the first time this information has been suggested, discussed or challenged. Nor will it be the last. I can only confirm what I know.

This does not, and will not tarnish the Supremes reputation as the greatest female group of all-time. The roads they paved for others must be acknowledged and respected. What they accomplished has never been duplicated.

I’ll save the discussion about every other Supremes song for another day. If they weren’t on a particular song, well, it is what it is. They’re still on literally hundreds of other songs. Mary Wilson is still singing these hits today, Diana Ross is still singing this hits today. Diana and Mary’s legacies separately, and together as the Supremes, with Florence [[and Cindy, respectfully) will last long after we’re all gone. I personally love them, they are incredible women. The people I work with love them too, as I know all of you do as well. I have nothing but love and respect for each of these ladies, for all nine of them actually, and will continue to support what they did, and continue to do. I hope you will also.


I listened very carefully to both versions, and my opinion still stands that they BOTH are on the hit version, Supremes and Andantes. and if it WAS only Andantes on "Stop", then can someone tell me, out of all the acapella Supremes vocals to choose from, why would one that Flo and Mary were not on be chosen as the intro music for the Reflections DVD? These type of decisions are why some fans would consider certain things to be a slap in the face. another example, the #1's cover with the chopped off heads... when for the last 50 years of photography, society at large has joked and laughed at amateur family members taking pictures and cutting the top of people's heads off. Things like these are the reason fans feel the way they do, I think it's obvious to most.

[ejluther]

another example, the #1's cover with the chopped off heads... when for the last 50 years of photography, society at large has joked and laughed at amateur family members taking pictures and cutting the top of people's heads off.
Since the disc featured different versions of The Supremes I always thought that was a deliberate visual nod to the iconography of the 3 of them, regardless which 3 it happened to be. But I guess I'm not surprised some people were upset by it...

[motony]

I think alot of this was the thought process of the day[[the 60's) and that the women in music wasn't thought of so much as a career & that the men, writers, producers, managers [[husbands) controlled everything.

[thisoldheart]

I think alot of this was the thought process of the day[[the 60's) and that the women in music wasn't thought of so much as a career & that the men, writers, producers, managers [[husbands) controlled everything.

the supremes #1's album is from this decade. i fear the unthoughtful packaging on classic records [[and i might add DVD's) is because some 20 year old intern is in charge and doesn't know a damn thing about music history!

[luke]

You said it Jill. And now we find out more info about an Andante on Stop in the name of Love-50 years later-y then y now?? Im kind of reaching my limit. Why but stuff that all the Supremes arent on or others are added to?

[stephanie]

I was thinking about this yesterday when I was listening to this wonderful collection. I hear Mary and Flo and one Andante.

[soulballad]

I had always thought I heard Jackie because her deep voice can be easily picked out on most of the songs that she sang on. To my ears I hear Florence on the top harmony, Mary in the middle and Jackie filling out the bottom harmony. There are some additional oooohs that are probably Marlene and Louvaine but those are barely audible. The funny thing is there was a recent thread on here mentioning a lot of the songs that the Primettes/Supremes sang backup on for other artists. They sang on sooo many songs of theirs and others. Now here are my questions. The Motown singles box states that it was Marlene who sang with Flo and Mary on Stop. Who wrote these notes? Do "they" not really know the difference between the ladies. If that's the case then why should we belive anything that's written because it might change based on the opinon of who's writing it regardless of if it's true or not. Why put in print that Flo and Mary and one Andante sang on the released version and then print that it was the Andantes on the hit version and now we're getting yet another twist. I tend to believe that the old machine is very well at work here. A lot of good things have come about in the last ten years and some great music but the old Motown mentality is still in place in many ways imo.

[stephanie]

Soulballad the 3 people who would know the answers to these questions are HDH and I wonder if they prefer not to talk about it or why they have not been asked. Surely they would remember. The Supremes and Andantes have been on so many recordings I would not expect them to remember every single session they did.

[jobeterob]

Thanks for your participation Andy; logical, rational, honest and very reasonable.

[jobeterob]

Andy, if you read this, there is one more question I wonder if you could answer; your booklet says Florence Ballard was at the sessions for Reflections but it doesn't say she sang on the single.

Can you say if she did?

Some people that listen closely are sure she wasn't; I have no idea from what I hear on that song.

[marv2]

Andy, if you read this, there is one more question I wonder if you could answer; your booklet says Florence Ballard was at the sessions for Reflections but it doesn't say she sang on the single.

Can you say if she did?

Some people that listen closely are sure she wasn't; I have no idea from what I hear on that song.


Nah, she came to the session and just sat around and did her nails.

[luke]

LOLOL Marv--and well said Bob C!

[marv2]

LOLOL Marv--and well said Bob C!

Happy New Year Luke! hehehehehehehe!

[luke]

Have a great new year Marv! And by the way it's MR Luke. :)

[ejluther]

These type of decisions are why some fans would consider certain things to be a slap in the face. another example, the #1's cover with the chopped off heads... when for the last 50 years of photography, society at large has joked and laughed at amateur family members taking pictures and cutting the top of people's heads off. Things like these are the reason fans feel the way they do, I think it's obvious to most.

I just wanted to also point out that the back cover of the ELV1S [[#1) CD also featured a chopped-off photo:
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51vUm%2BYQ7EL._SS400_.jpg
I think that's what The Supremes' No. 1's was going for, too. After all, the entire project was inspired by that CD [[as was The Beatles' #1 - which, by the way, was the best selling CD of the decade)...

[jobeterob]

Well the ultimate trickery and fraud might be Right On.

At least with Diana Ross, everyone knew she was out front and the background was secondary. But with Right On, we didn't realize the Supremes would still be off singing with Diana Ross and making money, while Jean was recording the album with the Andantes.

Thankfully, this appears to have changed for the final albums from the 70's Supremes.

[mwmr]

I do not think using other backing vocalists was a wise move by Berry Gordy..i actually think its deceitful and very dishonest.He duped and hoodwinked the fans, for whatever his reason, and thats not nice.

People ought supremes records thinking thats what they were getting when they celearly werent. These days I'd sue his ass off for misrepresenttion and trading standards [[Millie Vanillie anyone?)

Its also insulting to Mary and Flo..and then Cindy..3 competant singers.

If I'd have been MW/CB i would have refused to gon on tv and mime to a record i wasnt on.

Chart history shows the later singles which MW/CB are not on performed very badly.

[Penny]

AVON Penny here. I need to weight in a bit. The Andantes were just one more piece of the successful Motown machine. They were used many, many times and for many reasons. I am okay with that. When I hear the music I hear the group members singing and when I am really lucky I can pick out some other voices and now I know who they belong too. They were great songs....timeless songs and they are that way because so many SUPER talents worked on them. Enjoy the music. I do! Especially while soaking in Skin So Soft in the tub.

Penny:eek:

[mwmr]

and which version of Stop! ,on which cd set actually features MW/FB then??

[jobeterob]

MWMr has probably hit on why this is a hot subject 40 years later ~ it is viewed as an insult, I suppose ~ to Mary, Florence's memory, Cindy, the hardcore fans that know all of this, and to Diana and Jean Terrell; who knows what any of these people knew although I suppose they must have known their own voices and known when they weren't there. It seems to me this was the kind of thing Jean was occasionally talking about.

It was so clear looking back that there were additions to Someday We'll Be Together, but we just accepted it as it was at the time and it did work for Motown ~ Love Child and Someday We'll be Together are the Supremes biggest hits; or among Diana's or whomever.

And it was only the 45 version of Stop in the Name of Love that we have verification of the wipe on.

[144man]

There's not a lot of point in judging what was common practice in the past by presentday standards.

[ralpht]

Penny has the right idea. I've said it before, and I'll repeat: all is not what it may seem in any facet of the entertainment business. Motown was no different in that it simply tried to put out the best product possible. If that meant bringing in some back-up singers, so be it. As long as the artists were able to perform live and satisfy, then why not?

[marv2]

In the booklet that goes with the Supremes Singles Collection, it says there are no Supremes on

1. Stop in the Name of Love - that the Andantes have the released version

2. In and Out of Love - the Supremes vocals were replaced with the Andantes for the released version

3. No Supremes on any of the cuts on Merry Christmas - it's all the Andantes and children.

As time goes on, it is starting to appear that the group really was Diana Ross and some backup singers that we formed a connection to but weren't really on a lot of the records - nothing after the Reflections time period and questions raised about a number of songs prior to that period - You Can't Hurry Love, Reflections.

Kind of big surprise to me; I listen to the songs on the singles collection which has excellent sound and for all those years, I was convinced I was hearing Mary, Florence and Cindy.

[[courtesy of Fran) Here is what is said [[in reference to "Stop In the Name of Love") in the Complete Motown singles collection for 1965 "HDH devised all the ingredients for this production Diana's captivating lead the perky retorts from Mary and Flo" and a little help from the Andantes' Marlene Barrow,

[jobeterob]

So..............I have a question.

Last night, again, Andy and George said, again, that the single released version of Stop in the Name of Love features Diana Ross and the Andantes.

They reiterated there was no disrespect to any Supremes intended, but occasionally, they point out what they discover and set out the facts.

They confirmed there are other takes of the song featuring Mary Wilson and Florence Ballard, just not the single version.

Doesn't it compromise the credibility of some of our posters who continually deny what we were told by people with access to the vaults, who won't listen in the face of irrefutable evidence?

Whenever we see the words "he's lying", that's a clue. It's probably the bang on truth.

[franjoy56]

Again on the anniversary of Flo's death i have to weigh in on this foolish issue of
people insisting Mary Wilson and Florence Ballard are not on the released version of
Stop in the name of love, I think it is full of baloney, no disrespect to Andy or George Solomon, I clearly hear Florence Ballard on the single, i also hear two alto voices one must be Mary and the other one of the Andantes. I think for people to insist Mary and Flo are not on the song is disrespectful and i am sure Diana herself would think so. Why would they replace Mary and Flo completely when they were on a hot streak with three number one's previously, yes i can understand them adding voices behind Mary and Flo to fill out the sound which by the way was not on the three previous singles nor would it be featured on Back in my arms again [[mary and Flo) is beyond me, it simply does not make sense. I am sure if the Supremes were replaced completely n this song you would have heard about this long ago. Stop downgradin the the importance of the Supremes they were a group and if the andantes are on the released version of sitnol they are not there without mary and flo, by the way I like the unreleased version on the box set better the background vocals of Mary and Flo sound smoother and certainly would have flown up the charts just as fast.

[marv2]

Again on the anniversary of Flo's death i have to weigh in on this foolish issue of
people insisting Mary Wilson and Florence Ballard are not on the released version of
Stop in the name of love, I think it is full of baloney, no disrespect to Andy or George Solomon, I clearly hear Florence Ballard on the single, i also hear two alto voices one must be Mary and the other one of the Andantes. I think for people to insist Mary and Flo are not on the song is disrespectful and i am sure Diana herself would think so. Why would they replace Mary and Flo completely when they were on a hot streak with three number one's previously, yes i can understand them adding voices behind Mary and Flo to fill out the sound which by the way was not on the three previous singles nor would it be featured on Back in my arms again [[mary and Flo) is beyond me, it simply does not make sense. I am sure if the Supremes were replaced completely n this song you would have heard about this long ago. Stop downgradin the the importance of the Supremes they were a group and if the andantes are on the released version of sitnol they are not there without mary and flo, by the way I like the unreleased version on the box set better the background vocals of Mary and Flo sound smoother and certainly would have flown up the charts just as fast.

Great post Fran and thank you for also remembering Florence today. I will never forget the moment I heard the news, where I was and what I was doing. I can also hear both Mary and Florence on that record. Maybe they released different versions with each pressing back then? Doesn't really matter because it is Mary and Flo and Diane singing.

[jobeterob]

Fran, just last night again George and Andy confirmed this.

They have the logs note, the masters, have separated the vocals and they said while there is a version with the Supremes on it, the 45 that was released was Diana and the Andantes.

Unfortunately, this is fact; disliked by a few, but fact.

Did you not listen to Andy and George on Midnight Johnny's show? One of the best shows. Scherrie and Susaye and Jean Terrell have been on before.

You've got to listen.

The show will be available in podcast soon MJ says.............so you can hear it for yourself.

[robbert]

I love the discussions on this "professional" level.

I don't have to repeat what many of you have already said.
I might add that I, like Brad, do "know" my Supremes voices. I was there, standing next to them when they were singing LIVE in The Netherlands, in 1965 [[DMF) and in 1968 [[DMC). I've been to their sound- and camera rehearsals. I know Florence's high pitched sound, the rough [[slightly nasal) edge on that voice, as opposed to the smooth edge on Mary's. Cindy's soprano was not outstanding - at least in comparison with Flo's highly distinctive sound. Cindy just didn't have that distinction.

I've also been on the wrong foot all those years about who is singing what. But the WHY question came long after DRATS had disbanded. I have been listening to all those album tracks in the sixties and sometimes thought: How clever can they make them sound! Those technicians must have doubled them!

How true that would appear to be. But nevertheless, I still love my girls. All of them. The divas and the non-divas. And by saying that I mean Diana, Mary, Florence and Cindy.

[stingbeelee]

It is also a fact that The Complete Motown singles Vol 5 used as their primary sources 'The Hitsville Session Logbooks, The Motown Library Tape Filing Card Index, The Motown 45 RPM Label Copy Files, The Jobete Music Company Catalog January 1959 - March 31, 1967.
And yet it is now said that the Complete Motown Singles data, in this matter, is incorrect.
If both of these projects used the same source information, how can they come to two different conclusions?
The Complete Motown Singles collection, as reported on this forum over the years, was a monumental task, took hundreds, if not thousands of man hours, no documents untouched, all sources verified, and they stated that Mary, Flo and Marlene Borrow sang on Stop! as indicated by the sources above.
And yet, after millions of copies of Stop!, thousands of listenings by compilists who put these recordings on CD, dozens of re-mixes by engineers on years of CDs, and forty seven years after it was recorded, it is now stated that it was the Andantes who sang on the released version? I have a hard time believing it. I am not saying they are wrong or liers, but I am shaking my head.
And so yes, the sources I mentioned are facts too, whether they are liked or not.

[marv2]

It is also a fact that The Complete Motown singles Vol 5 used as their primary sources 'The Hitsville Session Logbooks, The Motown Library Tape Filing Card Index, The Motown 45 RPM Label Copy Files, The Jobete Music Company Catalog January 1959 - March 31, 1967.
And yet it is now said that the Complete Motown Singles data, in this matter, is incorrect.
If both of these projects used the same source information, how can they come to two different conclusions?
The Complete Motown Singles collection, as reported on this forum over the years, was a monumental task, took hundreds, if not thousands of man hours, no documents untouched, all sources verified, and they stated that Mary, Flo and Marlene Borrow sang on Stop! as indicated by the sources above.
And yet, after millions of copies of Stop!, thousands of listenings by compilists who put these recordings on CD, dozens of re-mixes by engineers on years of CDs, and forty seven years after it was recorded, it is now stated that it was the Andantes who sang on the released version? I have a hard time believing it. I am not saying they are wrong or liers, but I am shaking my head.
And so yes, the sources I mentioned are facts too, whether they are liked or not.

Thank you for this Stingbeelee!

[bradsupremes]

It is also a fact that The Complete Motown singles Vol 5 used as their primary sources 'The Hitsville Session Logbooks, The Motown Library Tape Filing Card Index, The Motown 45 RPM Label Copy Files, The Jobete Music Company Catalog January 1959 - March 31, 1967.
And yet it is now said that the Complete Motown Singles data, in this matter, is incorrect.
If both of these projects used the same source information, how can they come to two different conclusions?
The Complete Motown Singles collection, as reported on this forum over the years, was a monumental task, took hundreds, if not thousands of man hours, no documents untouched, all sources verified, and they stated that Mary, Flo and Marlene Borrow sang on Stop! as indicated by the sources above.
And yet, after millions of copies of Stop!, thousands of listenings by compilists who put these recordings on CD, dozens of re-mixes by engineers on years of CDs, and forty seven years after it was recorded, it is now stated that it was the Andantes who sang on the released version? I have a hard time believing it. I am not saying they are wrong or liers, but I am shaking my head.
And so yes, the sources I mentioned are facts too, whether they are liked or not.

You're missing one thing.....the multitrack tapes. They tell a completely different story...

[jobeterob]

Brad is much better at this than I am...............but what he has written above is what I recall Andy and George said on Tuesday night.

Robbert, as usual, is correct. Keeping this professional is what we want to do. It is not about irrational emotionalism or demeaning anyone. It is about history; the same history as 3 girls created on Ed Sullivan in December, 1964. That's what Brad is giving you.

It is that same history and the same love for Motown, Berry, Diana, Florence, Mary & Cindy that leads people to leave SD and ignore certain posters who don't have that same love and respect.

[jillfoster]

You're missing one thing.....the multitrack tapes. They tell a completely different story...


Brad, they had the damned multitracks when they compiled the complete motown singles! The problem here is that TWO OFFICIAL Motown releases are giving contradictory information, when they were researched and released less than 5 years from each other. Obviously, one of them is wrong. And what do the multi track tapes tell, then? Do they tell that some people don't know what Flo's voice sounds like?

[jillfoster]

For some reason Andy thinks it;s not them because the vocal on Mary and Flo on the multi track doesn't sound exactly like the live vocal on the Hollywood Palace [[He's stated this) Well compare ANOTHER live vocal to the isolated vocal on the multi track... and tell me what you all hear:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7t_l2rws-8


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yPcoS7Y38Q

[stingbeelee]

Hi bradsupremes;
I do not have the Supremes single collection, so does it state that they sourced the material from the master tapes?
I am also wondering that if the logs, notes, the indexes, etc. have stated Mary, Flo and Marlene for so long, could they be incorrect?
Are the compliers stating that from listening, they have determined that it is the Andantes?
I have to pick this conversation up in the morning, it is an interesting thread to me.

[jillfoster]

Well, Stingbee, we know that that not all notations were correct in the tape vaults, after all... Flo's "O Holy night" stated on the tape can that there were no vocals. And I think that yes.... they are just making these determinations from listening..... but it wouldn't surprise me if certain members of the Andantes aren't planting these opinions in these guys' minds. I DO hear an Andante on there... I've said that...but not instead of, in addition to.

[ivyfield]

I am sorry I do not hear Mary on "Stop" or "Reflections".
Showbiz stories eh? I remember the very first time I met Mary properly and we had time to sit and chat. I asked 'Do you remember the reflections recording session?' and she said 'Of course!' Hmmm... but after reading all this fascinating stuff I wonder if she actually was there. You've got to give it to those Andate ladies - they did a bloody good job! Must admit I did question many of the album tracks after Flo had gone. It just didn't sound the same but hey, did it really matter? I mean, there's lots of bands/groups still out there using 'extra talent' to pad out their product. Away from the Supremes for a second, I remember reading an interview with Dennis Edwards in 1976 for the LP 'The Temptations do The Temptations' where he said there were a lot of session singers on that album. Some days he'd go into the studio with other singers and he'd be the only Temptation there! It's still one of my favourite albums tho...

[Constantin]

Away from the Supremes for a second, I remember reading an interview with Dennis Edwards in 1976 for the LP 'The Temptations do The Temptations' where he said there were a lot of session singers on that album. Some days he'd go into the studio with other singers and he'd be the only Temptation there! It's still one of my favourite albums tho...

One of the worse: "We Are Family" is just Kathy Sledge with Chic vocalists. Her sisters are nowhere to be found. Nevertheless it's a great record.

Actually the vast majority of buyers doesn't care about who is singing :-)

[marv2]

Showbiz stories eh? I remember the very first time I met Mary properly and we had time to sit and chat. I asked 'Do you remember the reflections recording session?' and she said 'Of course!' Hmmm... but after reading all this fascinating stuff I wonder if she actually was there. You've got to give it to those Andate ladies - they did a bloody good job! Must admit I did question many of the album tracks after Flo had gone. It just didn't sound the same but hey, did it really matter? I mean, there's lots of bands/groups still out there using 'extra talent' to pad out their product. Away from the Supremes for a second, I remember reading an interview with Dennis Edwards in 1976 for the LP 'The Temptations do The Temptations' where he said there were a lot of session singers on that album. Some days he'd go into the studio with other singers and he'd be the only Temptation there! It's still one of my favourite albums tho...

Bulls% hit about "if she was there..." You can hear her right on the record. You can hear her even more clearly on that #1's Collection that came out several years ago. She and Florence are singing on most all of the important records.

[marv2]

Brad, they had the damned multitracks when they compiled the complete motown singles! The problem here is that TWO OFFICIAL Motown releases are giving contradictory information, when they were researched and released less than 5 years from each other. Obviously, one of them is wrong. And what do the multi track tapes tell, then? Do they tell that some people don't know what Flo's voice sounds like?

Thank you also Jill! The bottomline is Mary, Diane and Flo and perhaps one additional vocalist is on this record. This thread really didn't need to happen because I've always knew and recognized the three Original Supremes voices .

[captainjames]

Thanks Andy
That puts it in perspective for me. It is what it is !!!



The Supremes story is a very complicated one, and when discussing who sang on which records, it is sensitive not only to the Supremes, but to the Andantes, and to the fans. What we report may be loved by many, and in some situations, may not be popular, but it is always important that we tell the truth. Our motivation is that of preserving the Supremes legacy, not diminishing it. If we report a kind word about one Supreme, Mary, Flo or Diana, it is often misconstrued as a slap to the other two ladies. On any project I work on, I can assure you that this is not, and will never be the case. I support them, and I love them, both professionally and personally.

There’s a recent thread about what songs are Tammi Terrell, and what songs are Valerie Simpson. The thread is long and the argument is interesting, but the truth can be found in the research, and in listening to the isolated vocals on the multi-tracks. However, the answers we could give, in the Tammi scenario, in the Supremes scenario, or in other artists scenarios may not be what fans want to hear. I’d rather tell the truth, for myself, and for an accurate history, than to be popular. And at the end of the day, all I can do is present the facts, even if they are conflicting, and if there is no clear answer, the listener can be the judge. Sometimes we have an answer, sometimes we don’t.

The Supremes/Andantes situation does exist, but it has absolutely been blown out of proportion. The Supremes background vocals by Mary and Flo, are on most of their records leading up to Flo’s departure. But there are some they are not on, pure and simple. Mary Wilson has acknowledged this, Florence Ballard in interviews acknowledged this, Diana Ross has acknowledged this.

As one learns the Supremes voices, it becomes more clear when you hear them. Once you learn the Andantes voices, the picture comes right into focus. And if you’re lucky enough to see the Motown session logs and tape cards, or get to hear the isolated vocals, there becomes no doubt when you hear the Supremes, the Andantes, or both.

When I am asked, I often give fans one example to listen to. There are many, but here is my favorite one. Listen to the Supremes version of “Fancy Passes” [[issued on Never-Before-Released-Masters and the same version is the bonus track version issued on There’s A Place For Us). Mary and Flo have a spoken passage. If you know their voices from this song, you’ll also know that when you hear the same spoken passage in the Barbara McNair version, that those girls are the Andantes. Listen to the same parts, learn the two different sets of vocals. Now go listen to other Supremes songs you may have in question.

Stop! In The Name Of Love is the latest hot topic, so I’ll acknowledge it here. Listen to the alternate from disc 2 of More Hits, also in a different mix on the box set. Now listen to the live versions on At The Copa, or the video from the Hollywood Palace. They are all consistent. Now listen to the released “hit” version. The voice you are hearing, is Jackie Hicks. Go back to McNair’s Fancy Passes, you’ll hear Jackie there. You’ll hear her on Run Run Run. But you’ll also hear her clearly on Ask The Lonely by the Four Tops, I Heard It Through The Grapevine by Marvin Gaye and dozens of other non-Supremes songs

I’m sure that regardless of what I could say, some will argue forever. I respect everyone’s opinions. But, it is what it is. More importantly, this is not the first time this information has been suggested, discussed or challenged. Nor will it be the last. I can only confirm what I know.

This does not, and will not tarnish the Supremes reputation as the greatest female group of all-time. The roads they paved for others must be acknowledged and respected. What they accomplished has never been duplicated.

I’ll save the discussion about every other Supremes song for another day. If they weren’t on a particular song, well, it is what it is. They’re still on literally hundreds of other songs. Mary Wilson is still singing these hits today, Diana Ross is still singing this hits today. Diana and Mary’s legacies separately, and together as the Supremes, with Florence [[and Cindy, respectfully) will last long after we’re all gone. I personally love them, they are incredible women. The people I work with love them too, as I know all of you do as well. I have nothing but love and respect for each of these ladies, for all nine of them actually, and will continue to support what they did, and continue to do. I hope you will also.

[marv2]

Well, Stingbee, we know that that not all notations were correct in the tape vaults, after all... Flo's "O Holy night" stated on the tape can that there were no vocals. And I think that yes.... they are just making these determinations from listening..... but it wouldn't surprise me if certain members of the Andantes aren't planting these opinions in these guys' minds. I DO hear an Andante on there... I've said that...but not instead of, in addition to.

Are you telling me that the superb recording of Florence Ballard singing "O Holy Night" was cataloged and shelved as not having any vocals on it? Is this why we did not get to hear it for over 30 years? That is incredible! It was the best Christmas song The Supremes ever recorded. As I said some time ago, if Marlene and them are claiming too much credit now all these years later, I am not buying it period. They cannot remember everything right from 45-50 years ago.

[bradsupremes]

Brad, they had the damned multitracks when they compiled the complete motown singles! The problem here is that TWO OFFICIAL Motown releases are giving contradictory information, when they were researched and released less than 5 years from each other. Obviously, one of them is wrong. And what do the multi track tapes tell, then? Do they tell that some people don't know what Flo's voice sounds like?

I highly doubt that when they were doing the Complete Motown Singles that they ordered all of the multitracks for all of the songs and used those. What they most likely used were duplicate masters or the masters on which the particular mix that was used for the single was on. Those masters, especially in the 60's, were mono. So it was a mono mix. That's much different than the multitrack tape on which was recording all of the vocals, instruments, etc. They are two different things. When you are doing something as big as the Complete Motown Singles, I don't think Harry, Andy, etc. had time to sit down and mix/master each and every multitrack tape. All they needed was the mix used for the single, so that's what they went to.

I think you've be very surprised what's on those multitrack tapes especially when things are isolated on their own...

[George Solomon]

There was no reason to pull the multitrack tapes for The Complete Motown Singles or Diana Ross & The Supremes Singles Collection. We used only original mixes and the multitracks are only necessary for remixing a song. We were working on More Hits By The Supremes and The Singles Collection at the same time and were doing new mixes of several songs for More Hits. That is when we discovered some new information about back up vocals and after much deliberation adjusted the liner notes to both collections.
I truly believe that in the future there's no need to clarify who is doing back up vocals. It's more important to just enjoy the music.

[captainjames]

Thanks a million George
Now we have heard from Andy and George
Nuff said !!
the end


There was no reason to pull the multitrack tapes for The Complete Motown Singles or Diana Ross & The Supremes Singles Collection. We used only original mixes and the multitracks are only necessary for remixing a song. We were working on More Hits By The Supremes and The Singles Collection at the same time and were doing new mixes of several songs for More Hits. That is when we discovered some new information about back up vocals and after much deliberation adjusted the liner notes to both collections.
I truly believe that in the future there's no need to clarify who is doing back up vocals. It's more important to just enjoy the music.

[stingbeelee]

I believe that George and Andy have done yeomen's jobs over the years to bring us Motown treasures, and I thank them from the bottom of my heart for this.
For myself, I have to do quite a bit of research and investigation at my job. Things to me are just not adding up. Notwithstanding that, I am not going to go back and forth with George and Andy on who sang backgrounds on this record. I believe that the statement of only Andantes on this record, [[after the postings on this forum), to be inconclusive.
I believe that on the commercial record, the personnel singing are Diana, Flo, Mary and Marlene.
It is still, and will always be, a wonderful record, and the first few bars of Stop! are to this day, jawdropping. It's a great record anyway you look at it.

[soulballad]

My opinon of this is If we keep getting "new" information printed regardless if it's true or not and if it's not in favor of the group, then the legacy of the Supremes will falter and evaporate and sales of their catalog will also go away. BTW this is not good for Diana Ross or for Motown because then it raises a LOT of other questions. Up to this point the loyal fans have stuck by motown and bought all of the releases but over the last 10 to 15 years [[on these boards in particular) It has not been about music at all and it has lessened the whole Motown experience.

No matter if the information that's been recently released is true or not, it's has been put out there and that can cause doubt in some. So at this point it doesn't matter if "Motown" includes their opinion of who sang on what in the future releases the damage is done! Motives and credibility will be questioned for all parties involved.

[skooldem1]

It's safe to say that Diana Ross won't be affected. She is singing lead on all those songs. The fact of the matter is Mary and Florence sing on MOST on those songs. There are some songs where one or both of the ladies singing backup were replaced- or songs that had other singers in addition to Mary and Flo. But that happens across the board, with many record companies. It is really not a shocking as some make it seem. Mary Wilson, Florence Ballard, and Cindy Birdsong fans are blowing this all out of proportion.

[marv2]

My opinon of this is If we keep getting "new" information printed regardless if it's true or not and if it's not in favor of the group, then the legacy of the Supremes will falter and evaporate and sales of their catalog will also go away. BTW this is not good for Diana Ross or for Motown because then it raises a LOT of other questions. Up to this point the loyal fans have stuck by motown and bought all of the releases but over the last 10 to 15 years [[on these boards in particular) It has not been about music at all and it has lessened the whole Motown experience.

No matter if the information that's been recently released is true or not, it's has been put out there and that can cause doubt in some. So at this point it doesn't matter if "Motown" includes their opinion of who sang on what in the future releases the damage is done! Motives and credibility will be questioned for all parties involved.

Very well said and a more than reasonable, different angle to all of this.
Not much can be said at this point in time that is going to change one iota what I believe, so enjoy mary, flo and diane the supremes!

[TheMotownManiac]

Dear George,

There are a few people who, because they want things a certain way, will always insist on it. I know a man who had a heart attack because his insurance converted to an HMO and he refused to get a referral - thinking it was Hilary Clinton's health care reform in action. He lost his periphieral vision for life. Please don't punish the vast majority who, like Andy said, want the truth about the music that we love. I don't care who is on Stop! I only know I bought it the day it came out and still play it. For the record, I don't hear Mary OR Flo on it, and cetainly, have always missed Flo on You Can't hurry Love. I have a friend who says The Andantes were so incredibly talented, that they could pass for Supremes, Marvelettes and Vandellas. I concur. Mary & Flo were talented, but they weren't always what the producers wanted. What's the big deal? I applaud your work, say Bravo! and send my best wishes to those so obviously upset, first we have to deal with no Santa Claus, and now THIS!

[honest man]

Ha funny enough been listening to Marvelettes vol 2 never knew Flo, Cindy ,Mary had also sang backup with the Marvelettes,cheers.

[TheMotownManiac]

Except most people don't care. So Mary & Flo aren't on Stop! - who cares? They aren't on Love Child - who cares? It's still their biggest selling single of all time. It's the music - The supremes, in all of their incarnations, included The Andantes or other session singers. Mary tried to paint a false conspiracy theory in her feebly facted bio, claiming that Motown began using The Andantes after Flo left o get the public used to just Diana's voice. I laughed at that notion then, and now that we know the A's were on early hits and entire LP's in 1965, that shoots Mary's credibility AND motivations to hell. This does nothing to lessen The Motown Experience for me - it enhances it. I'm fascinated by the work put into the music we all hold so dear. I'm sure Stop! would have been just as big or close if Mary & Flo were on it, but HDH felt differently at the time of creation. I hope you will come to love the music for how it sounds - not the mechanics behind it.

[TheMotownManiac]

Brilliant! Thank you. Thank you for all of your hard work, and putting the truth above the fiction.

[marv2]

Except most people don't care. So Mary & Flo aren't on Stop! - who cares? They aren't on Love Child - who cares? It's still their biggest selling single of all time. It's the music - The supremes, in all of their incarnations, included The Andantes or other session singers. Mary tried to paint a false conspiracy theory in her feebly facted bio, claiming that Motown began using The Andantes after Flo left o get the public used to just Diana's voice. I laughed at that notion then, and now that we know the A's were on early hits and entire LP's in 1965, that shoots Mary's credibility AND motivations to hell. This does nothing to lessen The Motown Experience for me - it enhances it. I'm fascinated by the work put into the music we all hold so dear. I'm sure Stop! would have been just as big or close if Mary & Flo were on it, but HDH felt differently at the time of creation. I hope you will come to love the music for how it sounds - not the mechanics behind it.

But they ARE on "Stop In the Name of Love" and now see, you done gave yourself away when you described Mary Wilson's New York Times Bestseller and the all time best selling music relate biography, "Dreamgirl, My Life As A Supreme" as her "feebly facted bio.

I think you set a new all time World record for losing you public credibility here with just your third posting. Now I know how to view your comments from here on! Thanks. LOL!

[marv2]

Oh and for the record. According the Supremes contracts, it was illegal for Motown to replace her, Florence or Diane on recordings by the Supremes or in stage performances if either were physically able to perform/sing. It all came out in court in 1977. No conspiracy theories just the fact that Motown was in breach of contract when they recorded "Love Child", "Someday We'll Be Together". They said nothing about "Stop In the Name of Love", because Mary and Florence are on that record.

[honest man]

themotownmaniac well said could not have put it better, what a sellout-loser. cheers.

[marv2]

Now, that is who I'd like to hear from regarding this near worn out subject, the Holland Brothers and Lamont Dozier. They were there!

[Roberta75]

There was no reason to pull the multitrack tapes for The Complete Motown Singles or Diana Ross & The Supremes Singles Collection. We used only original mixes and the multitracks are only necessary for remixing a song. We were working on More Hits By The Supremes and The Singles Collection at the same time and were doing new mixes of several songs for More Hits. That is when we discovered some new information about back up vocals and after much deliberation adjusted the liner notes to both collections.
I truly believe that in the future there's no need to clarify who is doing back up vocals. It's more important to just enjoy the music.

And there you have it folks.

Thank you George.

Roberta

[marv2]

And there you have it folks.

Thank you George.

Roberta

You got nothing! That's just his opinion.

[jillfoster]

And there you have it folks.

Thank you George.

Roberta

It's not a "There You Have It" situation when someone whose hearing may or not be accurate says something that is completely subjective. I've heard people say all KINDS of things, I've heard John Perrone say with complete certainty that Cindy is not singing the operatic intro in "The Loving Country", and we all know that's totally untrue. We HAVE the isolated background vocals, but not EACH vocalist isolated. When 3 people are singing together, sometimes people's judgement can be thrown off as to who is in the mix. And singers don't always sound EXACTLY the same on every song. If one of the HOLLANDS makes that statement, then I will accept it as fact.

[Roberta75]

It's not a "There You Have It" situation when someone whose hearing may or not be accurate says something that is completely subjective. I've heard people say all KINDS of things, I've heard John Perrone say with complete certainty that Cindy is not singing the operatic intro in "The Loving Country", and we all know that's totally untrue. We HAVE the isolated background vocals, but not EACH vocalist isolated. When 3 people are singing together, sometimes people's judgement can be thrown off as to who is in the mix. And singers don't always sound EXACTLY the same on every song. If one of the HOLLANDS makes that statement, then I will accept it as fact.

It's "There you have it" for me.

End of story.

[jobeterob]

Thanks George.

I know you guys who actually work on these projects have some reluctance to enter the fray and bring rationality and facts into the mix of high anxiety and emotion. I respect you greatly for setting the record straight.

If the doubters/haters can't take it from George and Andy, they couldn't take it from Berry, Mary and Diana, or even Diane.

But deep down, you know the man has served you the final goods and Roberta is right ~ it's a done story. And Motown Maniac is also right..............who cares?

Mary is not laying awake at night over this and Diane doesn't know and Diana doesn't care; too busy on the tour.

[carole cucumber]

Oh and for the record. According the Supremes contracts, it was illegal for Motown to replace her, Florence or Diane on recordings by the Supremes or in stage performances if either were physically able to perform/sing. It all came out in court in 1977. No conspiracy theories just the fact that Motown was in breach of contract when they recorded "Love Child", "Someday We'll Be Together". They said nothing about "Stop In the Name of Love", because Mary and Florence are on that record. Marv ,
Don't your 'they' mean Mary & Motown?
Perhaps "they" said nothing about "Stop In The Name Of Love" , because Mary and Flo recorded vocals which may have been used on one version and not the other. Mary may not have been listening all that closely to notice/ distinguish on which version the Andantes were added/ replaced the Supremes. If Mary didn't notice, she wouldn't bring the song up in any lawsuit.
"Love Child" and "Someday We'll Be Together" are an entirely different issue- Mary knows that she was not on either; Cindy also knows the same. Mary brought these up, cause she knew for sure!
Therefore, Marv, your argument on this post is like comparing apples and oranges and not all that effective.

[soulballad]

I don't have a problem with truth. In fact if HDH stated some facts I could accept it and move on. Anyone other than HDH or Diana or Mary is just offering an opinon pure and simple!

[HowieP]

Love Factory The History Of Holland Dozier Holland by Howard Priestley, the book I started many years back and [[hopefully) as accurate a history as I could write is now available on Kindle.

[marv2]

I don't have a problem with truth. In fact if HDH stated some facts I could accept it and move on. Anyone other than HDH or Diana or Mary is just offering an opinon pure and simple!


I am of this same opinion.

[marv2]

Marv ,
Don't your 'they' mean Mary & Motown?
Perhaps "they" said nothing about "Stop In The Name Of Love" , because Mary and Flo recorded vocals which may have been used on one version and not the other. Mary may not have been listening all that closely to notice/ distinguish on which version the Andantes were added/ replaced the Supremes. If Mary didn't notice, she wouldn't bring the song up in any lawsuit.
"Love Child" and "Someday We'll Be Together" are an entirely different issue- Mary knows that she was not on either; Cindy also knows the same. Mary brought these up, cause she knew for sure!
Therefore, Marv, your argument on this post is like comparing apples and oranges and not all that effective.

I stand by everything in my original post!

[marv2]

Love Factory The History Of Holland Dozier Holland by Howard Priestley, the book I started many years back and [[hopefully) as accurate a history as I could write is now available on Kindle.

Howie thanks. Could you provide a link to "Kindle"?

[marv2]

It's not a "There You Have It" situation when someone whose hearing may or not be accurate says something that is completely subjective. I've heard people say all KINDS of things, I've heard John Perrone say with complete certainty that Cindy is not singing the operatic intro in "The Loving Country", and we all know that's totally untrue. We HAVE the isolated background vocals, but not EACH vocalist isolated. When 3 people are singing together, sometimes people's judgement can be thrown off as to who is in the mix. And singers don't always sound EXACTLY the same on every song. If one of the HOLLANDS makes that statement, then I will accept it as fact.

Yes. Get Eddie and Brian and also Lamont to tell me and I might believe it. Other than that you are wasting my time.

[supremester]

Oh, it's still feebly facted because even IF they are on Stop!, they are not on many, many other recordings from 1965 and beyond, and Mary knows this. Still, she chose to say it was a conspiracy after Flo left, claimed they performed on shows they didn't yada yada. as you said, it was years ago - how could Mary remember every detail? Anyway, what do you care about Mary - she asked you publicly and privately to stop your mudslinging and yet you continue. Mary is doing her Lena Horne show in Las Vegas in May - are you going? It should be good.

[marv2]

Thanks George.

I know you guys who actually work on these projects have some reluctance to enter the fray and bring rationality and facts into the mix of high anxiety and emotion. I respect you greatly for setting the record straight.

If the doubters/haters can't take it from George and Andy, they couldn't take it from Berry, Mary and Diana, or even Diane.

But deep down, you know the man has served you the final goods and Roberta is right ~ it's a done story. And Motown Maniac is also right..............who cares?

Mary is not laying awake at night over this and Diane doesn't know and Diana doesn't care; too busy on the tour.

I don't believe anything that I didn't already believe in 1965 when I first heard this record. All I see is some words on the internet. I have ears [[that have been checked during a recent physical) that are still very good and I believe them,not what I am reading here. Get the Holland Brothers or just drop the subject.

Oh yeah Mary Wilson will be playing the Rrazz Room again with "Upclose" and in Vegas with "The Lena Horne Project". She also recently served as a mentor to Jordan Sparks for the upcoming film "Sparkle" starring the greatest female singer that ever recorded, Ms. Whitney Houston!

[marv2]

Oh, it's still feebly facted because even IF they are on Stop!, they are not on many, many other recordings from 1965 and beyond, and Mary knows this. Still, she chose to say it was a conspiracy after Flo left, claimed they performed on shows they didn't yada yada. as you said, it was years ago - how could Mary remember every detail? Anyway, what do you care about Mary - she asked you publicly and privately to stop your mudslinging and yet you continue. Mary is doing her Lena Horne show in Las Vegas in May - are you going? It should be good.

Blather, blather.....blather! and I just posted about Mary's upcoming appearance in Vegs in May. I don't know if I will go yet. Are you going to Norwins Supremes Convention in D.C.? You, it will be great and I am sure there will be a few folks there that would to meet you........

[marv2]

Oh, it's still feebly facted because even IF they are on Stop!, they are not on many, many other recordings from 1965 and beyond, and Mary knows this. Still, she chose to say it was a conspiracy after Flo left, claimed they performed on shows they didn't yada yada. as you said, it was years ago - how could Mary remember every detail? Anyway, what do you care about Mary - she asked you publicly and privately to stop your mudslinging and yet you continue. Mary is doing her Lena Horne show in Las Vegas in May - are you going? It should be good.

Yeah it was years ago, but by the time Mary wrote her book 26 years ago, it was far more recent than it is now!

[supremester]

You are wasting your breath. He won't give in because he doesn't want to. He doesn't care what the facts are - he does care about image. Which is why he spends countless hours online bashing Diana Ross and praising Mary. It would be admirable if he stuck to the truth and was classy about it, but he uses foul language, homophobic slurs and false information to bolster his claim. Even his Yahoo Mary Group is down to just a very few participants because of the negativity and falsehoods. He says Mary and he are friends and that they talk etc. I sent her a lot of those instances and she didn't even know who he was, asked for a photo and claimed never to have been to his group. When a member invited her there to see what was going on, he banned him for interfering. But have no fear. All of his claims are being supplied to Mary with an invitation here so she, personally, can address all this pettiness [[her word) and hopefully put an end to it all. She is very, very unhappy with the negativity directed toward Diana by a few of her fans and wants us all to live in peace as we enter our golden years. The words are Reach Out and Touch [[Somebody's Hand)......... make this world a better place, if you can!

[supremester]

Oh yes, I will be there and am looking forward to meeting everyone!

[marv2]

You are wasting your breath. He won't give in because he doesn't want to. He doesn't care what the facts are - he does care about image. Which is why he spends countless hours online bashing Diana Ross and praising Mary. It would be admirable if he stuck to the truth and was classy about it, but he uses foul language, homophobic slurs and false information to bolster his claim. Even his Yahoo Mary Group is down to just a very few participants because of the negativity and falsehoods. He says Mary and he are friends and that they talk etc. I sent her a lot of those instances and she didn't even know who he was, asked for a photo and claimed never to have been to his group. When a member invited her there to see what was going on, he banned him for interfering. But have no fear. All of his claims are being supplied to Mary with an invitation here so she, personally, can address all this pettiness [[her word) and hopefully put an end to it all. She is very, very unhappy with the negativity directed toward Diana by a few of her fans and wants us all to live in peace as we enter our golden years. The words are Reach Out and Touch [[Somebody's Hand)......... make this world a better place, if you can!

Until you can bring me the Holland Brothers and Lamont, this topic/issue is dead!

[atcsm]

I sense some sarcasm in the comment about people wanting to meet him. Since you are hostile towards him, I'm assuming that you are promoting violence [[not your first time).

Blather, blather.....blather! and I just posted about Mary's upcoming appearance in Vegs in May. I don't know if I will go yet. Are you going to Norwins Supremes Convention in D.C.? You, it will be great and I am sure there will be a few folks there that would to meet you........

[atcsm]

Have you figured out what a "Kindle" is yet?

Howie thanks. Could you provide a link to "Kindle"?

[soulster]

I like the Supremes' records. I consider the mono hit single "You Keep Me Hanging On" perhaps the best pop song of the 60s. I don't know or care who actually sang the backgrounds. I just like the song. That guitar figure on the intro and throughout the song is killer!

[jillfoster]

Thanks George.

I know you guys who actually work on these projects have some reluctance to enter the fray and bring rationality and facts into the mix of high anxiety and emotion. I respect you greatly for setting the record straight.

If the doubters/haters can't take it from George and Andy, they couldn't take it from Berry, Mary and Diana, or even Diane.

But deep down, you know the man has served you the final goods and Roberta is right ~ it's a done story. And Motown Maniac is also right..............who cares?

Mary is not laying awake at night over this and Diane doesn't know and Diana doesn't care; too busy on the tour.

There's no rationality and fact in someone's subjective opinion, it is someone saying that THEY think it's Andantes, and not Mary and Flo. Like I said, if the INDIVIDUAL backgrounds were separated, then the evidence would be obvious, but when three women are singing together, it's harder to tell. Did you just ignore the video clip comparison I posted earlier? Here's another:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7t_l2rws-8


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eN-hcWau2wU&feature=related

[marv2]

There's no rationality and fact in someone's subjective opinion, it is someone saying that THEY think it's Andantes, and not Mary and Flo. Like I said, if the INDIVIDUAL backgrounds were separated, then the evidence would be obvious, but when three women are singing together, it's harder to tell. Did you just ignore the video clip comparison I posted earlier? Here's another:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7t_l2rws-8


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eN-hcWau2wU&feature=related

That is definitely Florence Ballard, Mary Wilson, Diana Ross singing on that record. Thanks Jill. Now until the Holland Brothers and Lamont Dozier tells us differently, then anything else is just the opinion of someone else that was not even in the studio that day and clearly do not know the voices of the Supremes very well.

[atcsm]

We'll give him the weekend to discover what a Kindle is, ok?

[jillfoster]

That is definitely Florence Ballard, Mary Wilson, Diana Ross singing on that record. Thanks Jill. Now until the Holland Brothers and Lamont Dozier tells us differently, then anything else is just the opinion of someone else that was not even in the studio that day and clearly do not know the voices of the Supremes very well.

when you directly compare the first 10 seconds of those clips, I think it's quite obvious they are the same, with one extra voice added on the first clip. My main issue is this. If I were George or Andy, I would not have presented this information as FACT unless you talked to the people who were THERE and confirmed it. Those clips I posted above cast serious doubt on their statements. I don't think their intentions are bad, just the opposite.. I've seen both of them post for years, and they are not shit stirrers by any means. I just think they heard something, have ran with it without THOROUGHLY vetting their information. simple as that. I DID just listen to the alternate version on the box set, and YES... the backgrounds are different, the extra voice or voices are not there. But Flo and Mary's voices are clearly on BOTH versions... with the released version containing extra voices to beef it up.

[jillfoster]

And let's also keep in mind that not every singer sings a song the exact same way every time. Flo, in particular would change up her part on "Stop" on many occasions, like this one:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBDnGhv2bv8

[jillfoster]

We'll give him the weekend to discover what a Kindle is, ok?

How about we give you the weekend to learn how to not act like a complete turd when people are trying to have a serious technical discussion?

[franjoy56]

George and solomon have done good work to bring supremes fans tracks we have never heard and we do appreciate their efforts however, I have to agree with the conclusion that we insist that the record released on Feb 8, 1965 feature mary and Flo with other voice or voices with the supremes, but i think the bottom line is hearing it from hdh

or Mary Wilson, since they were the ones involved in the background recording of the song and Mary would certainly remember that since it was one of their biggest hits, but here is another theory

if it is true mary and flo are alone in the bkg on where did our love go, baby love, come see about me and back in my arms again, why would they replace them on sitnof which was recorded after all of the others, and before another all supremes single nothing but heartaches the only theory i see is that that they wanted the sound fuller by adding the extra [[voice). I will try to reach Mary when she is off tour and "gently" poise the question to her, i do have her email address until i hear otherwise its the supremes to my ears.

[supremester]

Marv and I do not usually get along. He kicked me out of MWOS for saying I liked the background on Love Child. In Stirfry, he commented that my friend that passed of AIDS deserved what he got for being a sexual deviant and wished the same fate for me. [[It's all in the archives.) Even with that knowledge, I doubt he was meaning violence. Violence? This is 2012. Violence because we differ on background voices? LOL it can't be possible. I know I'm new here, but has anyone disagreed so vehemently about an art form that they'd resort to even inferring violence?


I sense some sarcasm in the comment about people wanting to meet him. Since you are hostile towards him, I'm assuming that you are promoting violence [[not your first time).

[HowieP]

Hi, Kindle is the new way of getting books electronically instead of the old paper way. The link to it is http://www.amazon.co.uk/Love-Factory-ebook/dp/B007C92CTY

I know it can limit how people buy things but it also allows you to self-publish, which again, can arguably open the market up to any rubbish. I hope mine isn't in that category. I'm 400 pages into another book Blueprint: A History of Funk and have written and drawn 2 parts of a 4 part comic book mini-series called Soul Man which attemots to tell the story of Soul in a fictional setting called Soul City, USA. Catch me also on Phoenix Radio, Thursday evenings 8 til 10pm [[UK time) for Soul City...2 hours of classic funk and soul. www.phoenixfm.co.uk [[http://www.phoenixfm.co.uk)

[carole cucumber]

Frank Wilson, one of the writers and producers of 'Love Child' believed that Mary, Cindy & the Andantes was on 'Love Child'. Do all songwriters/producers always remember everything? Even HDH?

[marv2]

George and solomon have done good work to bring supremes fans tracks we have never heard and we do appreciate their efforts however, I have to agree with the conclusion that we insist that the record released on Feb 8, 1965 feature mary and Flo with other voice or voices with the supremes, but i think the bottom line is hearing it from hdh

or Mary Wilson, since they were the ones involved in the background recording of the song and Mary would certainly remember that since it was one of their biggest hits, but here is another theory

if it is true mary and flo are alone in the bkg on where did our love go, baby love, come see about me and back in my arms again, why would they replace them on sitnof which was recorded after all of the others, and before another all supremes single nothing but heartaches the only theory i see is that that they wanted the sound fuller by adding the extra [[voice). I will try to reach Mary when she is off tour and "gently" poise the question to her, i do have her email address until i hear otherwise its the supremes to my ears.

Great points Fran. Yes those guys have done a great job releasing and re-releasing a lot of the old material [[I look forward to some on the Four Tops), but I would have to hear directly from Eddie, Brian and Lamont and perhaps other Motown personnel that were there. Mary has already said that she is on all of those records, so I am not going to bother her with this stuff again.....but Fran, YOU can ask her if you like, hehehehehehe.... I have to laugh because it's always been the Supremes to my ears until after Florence and HDH left and Motown started producing those dull, mediocre records with the bland, colorless background vocals in the late sixties.

[marv2]

Frank Wilson, one of the writers and producers of 'Love Child' believed that Mary, Cindy & the Andantes was on 'Love Child'. Do all songwriters/producers always remember everything? Even HDH?
I don't know. I do know this and that there is this woman, this musician by the name of Carol Kaye that swears that she is the one playing that famous funky bassline on Stevie Wonder's 1967 hit, "I Was Made to Love Her". There is a great clip of him performing it on Youtube. There was also a year long discussion started by some guy in favor of Ms. Kaye's claim. After a little research, we learned that the Holland Brothers and a few others confirmed that it was the legendary James Jamerson playing on that record and not Kaye! They went as far as to sign an affidavitt [[sp?) stating that and commented further that Ms. Kaye was not in the studio or even in Detroit the day they recorded that record.

So yeah, for ME, it would have to be a similar situation before I would even entertain the thought that Florence Ballard, Diana Ross and Mary Wilson are not singing together on the record, "Stop In the Name of Love".

[marv2]

Hi, Kindle is the new way of getting books electronically instead of the old paper way. The link to it is http://www.amazon.co.uk/Love-Factory-ebook/dp/B007C92CTY

I know it can limit how people buy things but it also allows you to self-publish, which again, can arguably open the market up to any rubbish. I hope mine isn't in that category. I'm 400 pages into another book Blueprint: A History of Funk and have written and drawn 2 parts of a 4 part comic book mini-series called Soul Man which attemots to tell the story of Soul in a fictional setting called Soul City, USA. Catch me also on Phoenix Radio, Thursday evenings 8 til 10pm [[UK time) for Soul City...2 hours of classic funk and soul. www.phoenixfm.co.uk [[http://www.phoenixfm.co.uk)

Thank you for that information.

[ejluther]

Frank Wilson, one of the writers and producers of 'Love Child' believed that Mary, Cindy & the Andantes was on 'Love Child'.
While every case is different, Mary herself says that she's not singing on "Love Child" in her book, DREAMGIRL...

[jobeterob]

When it is Andy and George, it is like the Motown Gods have spoken.

Even Marv bows to Andrew, George, as well as his Dear Diane.

[marv2]

When it is Andy and George, it is like the Motown Gods have spoken.

Even Marv bows to Andrew, George, as well as his Dear Diane.

It's too early in the day to be drinking Rob.....put it down.

[franjoy56]

Thanks Marv, I won't ask Mary this question since she already answered it to you in what you say, and they cannot take away what the supremes have don for us, and yes when Flo left the sound definetely changed. Do you remember how great they sounded on a bit of liverpool, more hits, sam cooke, and where did our love go, cwp and at the copa, after this it was different I hear a symphony onward had a different flavor to it mary and flo being pushed back in the music mix but it was still supreme until the very last note on the Happening.. Rogers and Hart was somewhat interesting as well. but it fell into the after I hear a symphony sound, notice how different Flo sounds on a lot of those tracks.

[marv2]

Thanks Marv, I won't ask Mary this question since she already answered it to you in what you say, and they cannot take away what the supremes have don for us, and yes when Flo left the sound definetely changed. Do you remember how great they sounded on a bit of liverpool, more hits, sam cooke, and where did our love go, cwp and at the copa, after this it was different I hear a symphony onward had a different flavor to it mary and flo being pushed back in the music mix but it was still supreme until the very last note on the Happening.. Rogers and Hart was somewhat interesting as well. but it fell into the after I hear a symphony sound, notice how different Flo sounds on a lot of those tracks.

All I ever needed to hear was "Come See About Me" to be permanently convinced that they were great! Then, years later, "Stoned Love" cemented the idea for me that they were the greatest female recording group at of all time!

[marv2]

Thanks Marv, I won't ask Mary this question since she already answered it to you in what you say, and they cannot take away what the supremes have don for us, and yes when Flo left the sound definetely changed. Do you remember how great they sounded on a bit of liverpool, more hits, sam cooke, and where did our love go, cwp and at the copa, after this it was different I hear a symphony onward had a different flavor to it mary and flo being pushed back in the music mix but it was still supreme until the very last note on the Happening.. Rogers and Hart was somewhat interesting as well. but it fell into the after I hear a symphony sound, notice how different Flo sounds on a lot of those tracks.

I certainly remember Fran and the different flavor you mentioned starting with the "I Hear A Symphony" album, is they started burying Mary and Flo in the mix, so much so until you almost had to strain or turn it up very loud to hear them. When they performed those songs live and on television, they sounded so much better, more soulful, vibrant, etc.

"The Happening" is when they sounded like a group again. It wouldn't be until "Up the Ladder to the Roof" was released did we, the people that were around me at that time started paying attention to the Supremes again as serious musical artists.

[atcsm]

to quote the ladies
Oh, I'm all alone now
No love to shield me
Try in a world that's...
A distorted reality

with distorted realiy being the money shot.................asshole


I certainly remember Fran and the different flavor you mentioned starting with the "I Hear A Symphony" album, is they started burying Mary and Flo in the mix, so much so until you almost had to strain or turn it up very loud to hear them. When they performed those songs live and on television, they sounded so much better, more soulful, vibrant, etc.

"The Happening" is when they sounded like a group again. It wouldn't be until "Up the Ladder to the Roof" was released did we, the people that were around me at that time started paying attention to the Supremes again as serious musical artists.

[jobeterob]

How many songs on Right On had Supremes and how many had Andantes again?

Jean Terrell did more with the Andantes on that album than Diana did with the Andantes in the final few albums.

Have we ever weighed that equation?

Motown was equal opportunity. No short changing Jean.