The Supremes Merry Christmas

[carlo]

I am confused. The Andantes sing in the background on this album. It's been said that Mary and Flo were on vacation and Diana went off on her own to record an entire Christmas album. The liner notes of the 1999 release state that vocals were recorded in Detroit in September of 1965. If Mary and Flo were "not available", then how is it that Flo managed to record two solo's? Did she record her vocals for "Silent Night" and "O Holy Night" after the September recording sessions? The theory does not make sense to me. How could Flo not be available to sing in the background with Mary, yet she was available to sing lead on two songs for the album?

It's a pity that at least one of her solo's were not included on the original album. I've always enjoyed her two Christmas songs and I would have taken her version of "Silent Night" over the "Children's Christmas Song" or "Twinkle Twinkle Little Me" any day.

[luke]

As with RTL. if Berry/Diana wanted them on there theyd be on there!!

[Jimi LaLumia]

it seems that where the studio was concerned "The Supremes" were on vacation more than they were off vacation,and were primarily [[or primettes-rily) needed for live concerts and tv shows...
and now we understand why Miss Ross was always complaining that she did all the work...cos apparently,she DID!

[reese]

The timeline in the recent MORE HITS reissue shows a very packed schedule. Motown most likely wanted to make sure the album was done ASAP, and ready for the upcoming Xmas season.

Diana recorded four leads on September 9th, and Flo recorded her two leads on the same date. After they left the studio, the Andantes recorded background vocals on that date, and again on September 16th. Diana recorded the rest of her leads on September 14 and 15.

During this same period, the girls had gigs on September 9 in Detroit, September 10 in Philly, and September 17 - 26 in San Jose. September 9 was a very busy day, with a Michigan State Fair gig as well as Diana and Flo recording. After all this, they still had to get to Philly. So most likely, the tight schedule probably was a factor in producer Harvey Fuqua doing the backgrounds with the Andantes. I suppose he didn't feel the need to get the entire group back in on September 14 and 15. Maybe he wanted to have continuity in sound. Or maybe they were prepping for the San Jose opening.

I suppose the period between September 11 - 16 could be considered vacation days.

[honest man]

I think the original album was fine as it was, fun -happy as a xmas was-is supposed to be,the Flo Ballard songs are durges as much as i appreciate them as a 50 plus adult back then they would be so depressing to young people, Motown knew best and released the best tracks for the album, chee.rs

[Jimi LaLumia]

agreed; and while I have been part of the 'poor Flo" brigade, she wasn't exactly 'show bizzy" the way Miss Ross has always been,which is what a Merry Christmas album requires;
they were, indeed, durges;
and as far as I can see, by the time of this album, it was already "the Diana Ross show" which, at the age of 13, was exactly what I wanted, although I loved that Mary and Flo were along for the ride,just as the other Miracles were alongside Smokey, the other Vandellas were alongside Martha, etc..

[honest man]

Jim i always enjoy your post s breath of fresh air, funnily enough today i was playing a mixed motown xmas cd i put the 2 flo songs in the mix otherwise they would never be played, my wife commented and said how depressing the cd was, and would i change it, for phil spector or something, that's nearly 50 years later, cheers.

[carlo]

agreed; and while I have been part of the 'poor Flo" brigade, she wasn't exactly 'show bizzy" the way Miss Ross has always been,which is what a Merry Christmas album requires;
they were, indeed, durges;
and as far as I can see, by the time of this album, it was already "the Diana Ross show" which, at the age of 13, was exactly what I wanted, although I loved that Mary and Flo were along for the ride,just as the other Miracles were alongside Smokey, the other Vandellas were alongside Martha, etc..

Well then I guess it all comes down to what kind of fan you are. If you're more of a Diana Ross fan, then of course you would have enjoyed seeing/hearing more of her in The Supremes. However, there are fans like myself who consider Mary and Flo to be as significant as Diana and those are the fans who appreciate hearing Mary and Flo's leads and solo work. It's a matter of personal preference.

[Jimi LaLumia]

well, Ross WAS the LEAD SINGER of the group...anything on the borders of that does not change this fact, even though Ross didn't found the group, during their Motown career, she was clearly designated, and Mary and Flo may not have been happy about that, but they did stay and took the money[[Flo not quite as long)..we can romanticise all we ant, but Diana Ross has always been the face and voice of The [[60's) Supremes//

[carlo]

Romanticize? All I said is that I appreciate Mary and Flo as much as Diana. I don't see any problem with that.

[luke]

Exactly and well said Carlo!! The face of the Supremes were three women. All their faces are on the albums. Even Berry Gordy said Mary Wilson was the heart and soul of the Supremes. She was one of three.

[Jimi LaLumia]

ve enjoyed seeing/hearing more of her in The Supremes. However, there are fans like myself who consider Mary and Flo to be as significant as Diana .......


actually, you said they are considered as SIGNIFICANT as the lead singer, and that is, indeed, borderline..
but,whatever makes you happy..

[carlo]

Yes, that is exactly what I said, Jimi. There ARE fans including myself who DO consider Mary and Flo to be as significant as Diana. It's not romanticizing. It's a fact. Sorry if you don't like it.

By the same token, there are fans who think Diana is/was the only important one in The Supremes. I can respect that [[even though I don't necessarily agree with that). To each their own. It doesn't mean someone is right or wrong, it's just a matter of one's own preference, IMO.

[carlo]

The face of the Supremes were three women. All their faces are on the albums. Even Berry Gordy said Mary Wilson was the heart and soul of the Supremes. She was one of three.

Exactly. I totally agree.

[bradsupremes]

actually, you said they are considered as SIGNIFICANT as the lead singer, and that is, indeed, borderline..
but,whatever makes you happy..

They were just as significant as Diana. The Supremes wouldn't be where they are if it wasn't for Diana and Diana wouldn't be anywhere she is if it wasn't for the Supremes. All three were extremely important regardless if they sand lead or background. They needed each other for success.

[blueskies]

If it weren't for Mary and Flo, I seriously doubt if I would have given Ross a second look/listen.

[Jimi LaLumia]

I am a devoted Supremes fan as well, but before I ever saw them, I heard Ross' voice in 1964 on a car radio, "Where Did Our Love Go", I was 13, and I was SOLD..
time spent here on SDF informs me that the voices that I thought were Mary and Flo very often were not, and that has let some air out of the balloon for me; they carried on like they were "the" voices when all the time, they knew they weren't;
so what does that make them, window dressing for album covers? Milli and Vanilli?
I am still a fan of the group, but I'm looking with different eyes now, and have developed a different understanding of Diana Ross as a result..what can I tell you..very disappointing

[nabob]

They were just as significant as Diana. The Supremes wouldn't be where they are if it wasn't for Diana and Diana wouldn't be anywhere she is if it wasn't for the Supremes. All three were extremely important regardless if they sand lead or background. They needed each other for success.I hear you on this!!!! While I do have a favorite, all three are the Supremes to me - not one of them is more important than the other two.

[Jimi LaLumia]

what about poor Cindy? how dare you nasty boys to exclude Cindy from your 'whatever' party!!!...lol

[johnjeb]

It's a pity that at least one of her solo's were not included on the original album. I've always enjoyed her two Christmas songs and I would have taken her version of "Silent Night" over the "Children's Christmas Song" or "Twinkle Twinkle Little Me" any day.

The pity is that two of your least favorite songs from the album were the ones chosen for the single! lol

Both of these songs are my mother's favorites. I agree with you on "Children's Christmas Song" but I absolutely love the mono version of "Twinkle, Twinkle Little Me". The album does have something for everyone and has been a family favorite since it's release in 1965. My mother feels it isn't Christmas until she hears this album. After Andy, Johnny, Dean, Bing, Frank and Nat, of course!

I would have preferred "Silent Night" over "Joy To The World" for the album closer. I agree that Flo's Christmas songs were stilted and uninspiring, but they were religious songs and it was 1965! I think if she had done a few more takes they would have gotten a better performance from her. Even Diana's unreleased Christmas songs seem dull to me. Overall, I think they chose wisely for the album tracks. It is disappointing, though, to learn that The Andantes did the backgrounds for this album

As much as Diana Ross was front and center for me during the 60s, Mary, Florence and Cindy added that visual touch of magic. I saw Diana in October. As thrilled as I was in seeing and hearing her sing Supremes songs in full, I must admit that watching just Diana sing these songs without her two cohorts by her side, to give a visual balance to the music, got a bit monotonous. That was the beauty of watching The Supremes on TV and LIVE onstage. As exciting as Diana was, The Supremes added something special with their subtle choreography and charm, and of course their singing.

[floyjoy678]

It made sense to me when I found out that the Andantes did the backgrounds for this album, I think Diana revealed this sometime in the late 60s during an interview. I always thought that Mary and Flo were mixed in with the Andantes on "Rudolph" and "Santa Claus" but listening to the album this year I really don't think they were on this album at all, aside from Flo and her two solos. Even "Silent Night" has the Andantes backing up Flo.

[jobeterob]

I love Flo's O Holy Night and never thought of it as a dirge; Silent Night is a dirge by anyone.

What is unique about SD is that all the young people out there.......if they know Supremes, they think it was Diana Ross and a couple other women. And on SD, people talk about the real women and the Andantes............everyone else asks "what's an andante?"

Looking back on it, for me there was the time of the Supremes........when Diana sang lead and Mary and especially, Florence were there.

Then there was Diana Ross and the Andantes and I didn't like those songs much except for Love Child; I was glad when Motown ditched the Andantes for the Waters sisters and pulled Diana out of it all thereafter.

And the third era was Ross herself, hits, movies and duets.

[selinasian]

Diane Lewis sang a lot of the background vocals on 'Merry Christmas' according to Louvain's tome.

[smark21]

The people in North Korea just got word that The Andantes were singing back up on Merry Christmas, not Mary and Flo.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSWN6Qj98Iw&feature=player_embedded#!

[Jimi LaLumia]

Mr.Gordy would do very well over there as Supreme Ruler..

[carlo]

Wow........

[Jimi LaLumia]

it's a joke...SUPREME ruler...get it???...lol..lighten up already..

[jobeterob]

No no no..............Jimi...............they realize there is no reunion, at least not of any Supremes. Some of them think they should not have posted ugly things on websites and Youtube.

[bradsupremes]

The people in North Korea just got word that The Andantes were singing back up on Merry Christmas, not Mary and Flo.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSWN6Qj98Iw&feature=player_embedded#!

LOLOLOLOL!!! That gave me a good laugh!

[REDHOT]

I never believed that story,about the reason they[[Motown) used The Andantes on The Christmas Album ,was because Mary and Florence went on Vacation,and the hard working Diana stayed,and recorded a Christmas Album,all by herself,i just don't buy it.[[sorry)
Please stay positive

[milven]

it's a joke...SUPREME ruler...get it???...lol..lighten up already..

I got it. Now someone better tell Rick Perry. When he heard that the Supreme ruler was dead, he said, "Wow! I didn't even know Diana was sick !". :):rolleyes:

On a more serious note, I have been hearing these who's better and who's more responsible for the group's success for decades. It's interesting to read the theads, but it has all been said before and it keeps my blood pressure down if I just read and don't participate.

Still fun to read others opinions and thoughts.

Okay ! Ya got me. I'll add one comment. It is overstating to say that the Supremes did a Milli Vanilli. The performing group did not lip sync. I was stunned to learn that the only Supreme on many of the records was Diana. But weren't the Crystals worse. At least for a time, didn't they have one group singing and one group performing ?

[carlo]

it's a joke...SUPREME ruler...get it???...lol..lighten up already..

I was saying "Wow...." to the video. Hard to believe...

[motony]

First of all thanks for the laugh with those North Koreans and "Dear Leader"... Supreme Ruler, Jimi I love your humor. Anyway, Motown as a business might have been recording a Christmas LP & then said hey lest just make it for the Supremes since they are selling so great & thats why Andantes are on there.Motown would not have spent the money to fly the whole group back to finish a Christmas LP or redo tracks . They would do what was more cost effective. Those North Koreans are really wailin because Pink Lady cancelled their tour.

[smark21]

When Merry Christmas was reissued on CD a few years back, the booklet included some comments by Mary Wilson. Pretty much all she talked about was what outfits they decided to wear for the cover shoot and then about how good she feels when she hears the songs when out Christmas shopping.

[motony]

well, maybe again the use of the Andantes has been overstated.I swear those North Koreans are bad actors.

[franjoy56]

First of all for those who think Diana and the Andantes recorded the whole Christmas album without mary and flo, i say boo hooo, i don't belive it, I played the album tonite and I am not an expert, but I clearly hear Mary and Flo on Santa Clause is coming to town, and Rudlolph the Red nose rheindeer, maybe little birght star, The andantes are definetly there but As far as Flo's two solo's "O HOly Night" is fabulous, and may i say whose bright idea was it to leave that off the album, "Silent Night" is good but not as good as O HOly NIght, and that track is a lot better than the stuff Diana has on the Christmas album. The one thing that is certain is that the Supremes and the Supremes Mary Wilson and Florence ballard are featured on the backgrounds of the five #1 songs they recorded that really mattered without assistance from the andantes thank you very much, although its documented on stop in the name of love there is one Andante singing with Mary and Flo, it is still Supreme, and this is what the supremes were three girls who were Supreme, thank you very much Diana for YOUR input as lead singer of the Supremes but lets not forget the image and singing of the Supremes whether the andantes are singing with or without them, the andantes did more singing on the Marvelettes and Vandellas records during this period, and it wasn't until Flo left that the Andantes really stepped it up a notch, and by then the Supremes were no longer the Supremes as we knew them, it was Diana and The Andantes, and four flop singles to boot between 68 and 69, by this time it was time for Diana to go and the group needed JEAN.

[franjoy56]

Does any such as Jobete or any insider at Motown have the scoop on just which tracks Mary and Flo sing on in the bkgrnd on the Merry Christmas album, I am sure about two tracks on side 2.

[reese]

When Merry Christmas was reissued on CD a few years back, the booklet included some comments by Mary Wilson. Pretty much all she talked about was what outfits they decided to wear for the cover shoot and then about how good she feels when she hears the songs when out Christmas shopping.

I remember reading that, and then thinking how Mary was somewhat confused. In the same booklet, she mentions how Motown set up a photo shoot of them around an Xmas tree, with a record player and empty gift boxes. But this shoot actually occured a year earlier, and in England, I believe.

Of course, the group did so much in such a short period of time that it would be hard not to confuse events or timelines. And maybe there are some Mary and Flo backgrounds on the Xmas album. The timeline listed in the MORE HITS certainly suggests it could be possible, although it clearly states that this was the only time that Mary and Flo were replaced for an entire album.

[Roger Polhill]

According to the liner notes on the extended "Merry Christmas" the backing vocals to "Twinkle Twinkle Little Me" were provided by Berry`children Joy, Berry and Terry plus Diana`s brother Chico.

[jobeterob]

I dont have it with me but in the new CD, The Diana Ross and the Supremes Complete Singles, in the section regarding the two Christmas singles, I believe it says the Andantes are on all of the album except for one cut ~ and it was either Twinkle Twinkle Little Me or the flip side.

It also makes reference to Florence recording O Holy Night and Silent Night and I believe it said they were solos; no one was behind her.

[jobeterob]

I read this again last nite; the 50th Anniversary Singles Collection says:

From the Supremes Merry Christmas, which otherwise includes traditional holiday favorites like White Christmas, is the Jobete copyright Children's Christmas Song. Diana's little brother Chico, age 9 and Berry's children, 11 year old Joy, 10 year old Berry IV and 9 yr old Terry, each get a a name check from Diana along with a request to join in the chorus. All of the rest of the albums backup vocals were supplied by the Andantes with help from Pat Lewis.

During the album sessions Florence recorded lead vocals on Silent Night and Oh Holy Night. For the latter she was technically solo - her only solo recording at Motown - as the song features no backup vocals. Neither performance was included on the LP and were not issued at all for several years.

[reese]

I read this again last nite; the 50th Anniversary Singles Collection says:

From the Supremes Merry Christmas, which otherwise includes traditional holiday favorites like White Christmas, is the Jobete copyright Children's Christmas Song. Diana's little brother Chico, age 9 and Berry's children, 11 year old Joy, 10 year old Berry IV and 9 yr old Terry, each get a a name check from Diana along with a request to join in the chorus. All of the rest of the albums backup vocals were supplied by the Andantes with help from Pat Lewis.

During the album sessions Florence recorded lead vocals on Silent Night and Oh Holy Night. For the latter she was technically solo - her only solo recording at Motown - as the song features no backup vocals. Neither performance was included on the LP and were not issued at all for several years.

Even though Diana mentions Joy, Berry, Terry, and Chico during the song, I always thought the bakground vocals sounded like they were done by adults trying to mimic kids. Especially at the end when they are all shouting "Merry Christmas, everybody!"

[jobeterob]

I expect the Andantes are behind the vocal with the children. I will listen tonight and see what I hear.

The Singles Collection also divulges that the released version of Stop in the Name of Love has the Andantes on it. Mary and Flo recorded it as well but the Andantes got the released version.

More and more of this all the time...............

[blueskies]

The Singles Collection also divulges that the released version of Stop in the Name of Love has the Andantes on it. Mary and Flo recorded it as well but the Andantes got the released version.

Dear Lord.................this keeps getting worse.

[bradsupremes]

And Florence isn't on "Reflections"..........

[Jimi LaLumia]

as I said, I'm a devoted Supremes fan from the age of 13 in 1964, but I fully understand where Diana Ross is coming from for the first time...with some exceptions, they all were, indeed, HER records...period..end of conversation...and Mary and Flo were not on vacation...who still believes that?....

[jobeterob]

Brad.............in the Singles Collection, it says that Florence took part in the sessions although by the time of the release, she had been officially let go.

But I suppose just because she took part in the sessions may not mean she is on the song.

[floyjoy678]

In my opinion that is Florence on "Reflections" her voice was definitely not the same as it was 2 years before that with the combination of getting older, smoking cigs and drinking her voice was bound to sound different. The voice on "Reflections" sounds like the same one to me on the recording of the Copa in '67. I think by 1967 Flo was singing in falsetto if this makes sense to anybody. A couple years later Flo admitted herslef that she was no longer a soprano, she was an alto.

[jobeterob]

I listened and there are definitely female voices in the background of The Children's Christmas Song.

I listened and don't hear Florence on Reflections but the background on Reflections is hardly there; whereas on Going Down for the Third Time, she is definitely there.

I notice the singles collection says In and Out of Love was Florences final session with the Supremes but it says that Mary and Florence's track was overdubbed with the Andantes the following day.

I wonder if any of these tracks overdubbed with the Andantes have the old tracks with Mary and Florence laying in a vault somewhere.

[jobeterob]

Here's the wording from the Singles Collection about The Children's Christmas Song:

From the Supremes Merry Christmas, which otherwise includes traditional holiday favorites like White Christmas, is the Jobete copyright Children's Christmas Song. Diana's little brother Chico, age 9 and Berry's children, 11 year old Joy, 10 year old Berry IV and 9 yr old Terry, each get a a name check from Diana along with a request to join in the chorus. All of the rest of the album's backup vocals were supplied by the Andantes with help from Pat Lewis.

During the album sessions Florence recorded lead vocals on Silent Night and Oh Holy Night. For the latter she was technically solo - her only solo recording at Motown - as the song features no backup vocals. Neither performance was included on the LP and were not issued at all for several years.

[thisoldheart]

will someone explain to me their love for all of motown's christmas, show tune, t.v. special lp's, bit o liverpool, c&w, etc albums. the motown sound for me has always been the stellar work done in the studio, usually on singles, and occasionally on albums and unreleased tracks. no funk bros., no great in house song writers and producers, no great singers = no motown for me. the motown sound, like phil spector productions, is purely a studio concoction for me. where did i go wrong?! help!

[144man]

will someone explain to me their love for all of motown's christmas, show tune, t.v. special lp's, bit o liverpool, c&w, etc albums. the motown sound for me has always been the stellar work done in the studio, usually on singles, and occasionally on albums and unreleased tracks. no funk bros., no great in house song writers and producers, no great singers = no motown for me. the motown sound, like phil spector productions, is purely a studio concoction for me. where did i go wrong?! help!

Somewhat reluctantly, I more or less agree with you.

[redlabs]

i do not care for all the extras such as BIT OF LIVERPOOL, FUNNY GIRL etc but i do like some of the recordings including Supremes Merry Christmas

[smark21]

will someone explain to me their love for all of motown's christmas, show tune, t.v. special lp's, bit o liverpool, c&w, etc albums. the motown sound for me has always been the stellar work done in the studio, usually on singles, and occasionally on albums and unreleased tracks. no funk bros., no great in house song writers and producers, no great singers = no motown for me. the motown sound, like phil spector productions, is purely a studio concoction for me. where did i go wrong?! help!

There's some decent material on the special material albums, but those albums were such blatant commercial pandering projects.

[thisoldheart]

There's some decent material on the special material albums, but those albums were such blatant commercial pandering projects.
yes, and that is my objection. a pure money venture. none of the real sound of motown. motown never made an album like "a christmas gift for you" probably the only christmas album made with the same attention phil spector gave to his regular projects. motown has always had that small annoying need to be accepted in the supper club set when they were already proven hit makers. after a certain date [[say post aretha at atlantic) their whole glittery stage persona was embarrassing compared to the high quality of music they were releasing. the temps may have tried to sound like sly, but they sure didn't have the hip look of sly. i swear someone needs to write a serious critique of the entire motown rise and fall.

[Roger Polhill]

I must agree that some projects were so non Motown and somewhat hard to justify to us purists but Berry Gordy wanted respectability for his artists which he thought was the supper club circuit and Broadway, fair enough.What annoyed me more was the indecent haste in performing the hits in live shows and the normal speed portrayed "adult" songs.Why was this, surely the audience went to hear the hits like on their records.Of course the "sound" is wrong because the Funks are seldom backing and the touring band can`t cut it so well.I buy everything released on Motown till 1971 so I guess I`m one of the mugs.

[Glenpwood]

Motown may have pandered to the parents by doing the Copa circuit and standards LPs but they also pandered to the kids with the idea that if they liked a sound once lets do a poor knockoff of it and no one will notice with the singles too. Go play "I Can't Help Myself" then "It's The Same Old Song" for example. Most of the Motown acts follow ups to smashes retain certain sounds from the prior hit. It's all a matter of taste at the end of the day. I'm glad we have those albums because it helps disproves the old myth that pop singers have no vocal versatility. Diana Ross would've never done Lady Sings The Blues/Billie Holiday if she hadn't first proves she could handle Rodgers & Hart.

[Jimi LaLumia]

well, at least they were brazen enough to say "It's The Same old Song"...lol
I liked Funny Girl and almost everything except "Liverpool",which just sounds 'off' from start to finish to my ears anyway..
Miss Ross shines in a spectacular fashion on "Funny Girl",an amazing album,and these type of things were used to penetrate the white mainstream,and to insinuate that all people of color don't enjoy Broadway tunes or didn't aspire to frequent places like the Copa is just racist idiocy..