The Primettes - two groups?

[ejluther]

So in my ongoing quest to catalog the complete recordings of The Supremes I have a few questions about the group[[s) calling themselves "The Primettes". Obviously I’m trying to figure out the songs with “The Primettes'” that actually are the group that became The Supremes and which ones are apparently a different group that also called themselves “The Primettes”. As far as I can tell, The Primettes who became The Supremes definitely sang on these 8 songs for the Lupine label with no question:

LONELY NIGHTS: Gene Martin & the Primettes
RETURN OF STAGGER LEE: Don Revel & the Primettes
I’LL GET ALONG [[WITHOUT YOU): Marv Johnson & the Primettes [[but sometimes credited to Al Garner/Gardner)
ALL I NEED IS YOU: Marv Johnson & the Primettes [[but sometimes credited to Al Garner/Gardner)
SEARCHING FOR MY BABY: Al Garner [[Gardner) & the Primettes
BABY WON’T YOU CHANGE YOUR MIND: Al Garner [[Gardner) & the Primettes
PRETTY BABY: The Primettes
TEARS OF SORROW: The Primettes

But I’ve also found information at various places that say The Supremes/Primettes also sang on all these songs, too, for Lupine and various other labels:

I AM HER YO-YO MAN: Eddie Floyd [[Lupine Records) http://books.google.com/books?id=f0fIGoFtdVIC&pg=PA70&lpg=PA70&dq=her+yo-yo+man+primettes+eddie+floyd+supremes&source=bl&ots=a7tvkrLRaI&sig=t7Za2JA7jL6tWeU3EikrnSQqAQg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=M9TsTqjcOe_J0AGmhfihCQ&ved=0CEAQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=her yo-yo man primettes eddie floyd supremes&f=false
LET ME BE YOUR BOY: Wilson Pickett [[Lupine/Correc-Tone Records) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1HAKeszhB0
ROLL ON: Walt Jessup [[Pussy Cat Records) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGNrzc7lpcw
PUPPET ON A STRING: Gino Washington [[Correc-Tone Records) http://dereksdaily45.blogspot.com/2009/01/gino-washington-puppet-on-string.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdcboBfNah0
JEALOUS OVER LOVE: James Dee & A Piece of the Action [[Enrica Records) http://www.soul-source.co.uk/soulforum/topic/9692-derek-pearson-mick-howard-on-ian-obengs-night/
MY PRIDE: James Dee & A Piece of the Action [[Enrica Records) http://music.msn.com/music/artist-biography/the-primettes/
BOUQUET OF FLOWERS: James Velvet [[Cub Records) http://music.msn.com/music/artist-biography/the-primettes/
WHEN I NEEDED YOU: James Velvet [[Cub Records) http://music.msn.com/music/artist-biography/the-primettes/
[[http://music.msn.com/music/artist-biography/the-primettes/)
Here's the information that started a lot of my questioning but I have to suspect that the writer has confused the two groups of Primettes:

The Primettes [[http://soulfuldetroit.com/music/artist/the-primettes/) did so many backing sessions that it's hard to track them all. They accompanied James Dee and a Piece of the Action on "My Pride"; Gene Martin on "Lonely Nights"; Don Revel on "The Return of Stagger Lee"; Wilson Pickett [[http://soulfuldetroit.com/music/artist/wilson-pickett/) on "Let Me Be Your Boy"; James Velvet on "When I Needed You," "Bouquet of Flowers," "We Belong Together," and "I'm Gonna Try"; Al Garner [[http://soulfuldetroit.com/music/artist/al-garner/) on "I'll Get Along" and "All I Need Is You"; Walt Jessup on "Roll On"; Eddie Floyd [[http://soulfuldetroit.com/music/artist/eddie-floyd/)'s sessions at Lupine; and more, all before Motown. Their labels include Lupine, Cub, Correc-Tone, and Pussy Cat.
http://www.answers.com/topic/the-primettes [[http://www.answers.com/topic/the-primettes) [[same info at the music.msn links above)

Did The Supremes/Primettes really record for all those labels as background vocalists? Or are all these records not on Lupine the other/different Primettes? If so, does anyone know anything about who they were? The only information I can find about "The Primettes" is about Diana, Mary, Flo & Barbara and virtually nothing about this other group of Primettes except the name showing up on record labels - I'm even having trouble finding information about the headliners on those records. To confuse matters even further, the "other" Primettes seemed to be recording around the same time the Supremes/Primettes were definitely doing background vocals for Lupine.

According to this poster, the James Dee records are definitely NOT The Supremes/Primettes and he doubts they're on the Velvet 45, either:

Supposedly "Bouquet Of Flowers" / "When I Needed You" features background vocals by The Primettes aka The Supremes. An answers.com page on The Primettes credits them as singing on "We Belong Together" / "I'm Gonna Try" but presumably this is wrong as yoiu explain they are two different singers - they do sound very different on the samples. There is another incorrect credit on there. The Primettes that sang on James Dee & A Piece of The Action's "My Pride" is not the Supremes but another group called the Primettes. It says so in the liner notes of a compilation CD I have. However I'm not even totally sure it's them on Bouquet & "When I Need You" as there is some spoken lines on "When I Needed You" and it doesn't sound like Diana, Mary or Flo, but they were very young. r it could be the early fourth member, Barbara Martin.

http://worldjournal-gs.blogspot.com/2007/01/jimmy-velvet-and-jimmy-velvit-singers.html [[http://worldjournal-gs.blogspot.com/2007/01/jimmy-velvet-and-jimmy-velvit-singers.html)
[[you can hear the velvet songs he mentions here: http://www.box.com/shared/2jghzj2uhg)

And this podcaster also says it's NOT the same primettes as the supremes on the record after playing James Dee's "My Pride" here [[starts right around 7:20)
http://lexjansen.com/blogs/01/?p=265

I guess the main question really is "Did the supremes/primettes ever record for any label other than Lupine and Motown?" and I figured this forum was a great place to ask it...thanks in advance.

Speaking of the Primettes:
3982

[carlo]

The Primettes were definitely on those Eddie Floyd recordings. A compilation was issued years ago with those songs on it. As for the others on your list, those are new to me. Interesting.

[ejluther]

So they are on all these Eddie Floyd recordings featured on LOOKING BACK WITH..., too? I wasn't 100% sure since they weren't credited as being on them as they were for others on the same record:
http://www.amazon.com/Looking-Back-Primettes/dp/B000006BEE

It is interesting but, like I said, I think people are confusing the two groups of Primettes and that they didn't sing for all those other labels. But I'm happy to learn otherwise, of course...

[robb_k]

3984
I believe that The Primettes/Supremes were backing ALL those cuts that were produced by Robert West [[Lupine, United Artists) and certainly, the Wilson Pickett on Correc-Tone. I'm not positive that they were the backing group on the other Correc-Tone productions listed [[Gino Washington, James Velvet). But they well could be. We have reason to believe that The Supremes were moonlighting doing backup for A&R man/producer Robert Bateman at Correc-Tone with his ALL ex-Motown staff. We think that James Velvet may have been ex-Satintone, James Ellis. Sonny Sanders, Popcorn Wylie, Janie Bradford [[AKA Nikki Todd), were all there.

"I'll Get Along" and "All I Want is You" were really sung by Al Garner [[Gardner) NOT Marv Johnson. I doubt seriously that Marv would have moonlighted back with Robert West in 1960 AFTER getting his big UA contract and hitting the big time charts. For it to have been a pre-Motown recording made with Robert West, it would have to have been recorded in 1958 [[at the same time as "My Baby-O". "I'll Get Along" sounds much better recorded, with a more sophisticated sound, and has a more modern sound to it. It sounds to me as if it were recorded in 1960. Al Gardner could sing in falsetto, too.

The Primettes were probably the background group on that one as well. The seem to have been Robert West's most used female backing group in 1960- early '62, and also Correc-Tone's in early '62.

Those cuts by Walt Jessup [[Pussy Cat) and James Dee [[Enrica) were New York productions. I am certain that the teenaged Primettes would not have gone to NY to record with a producer there. They were unknown. I wonder how that rumour started? Maybe the backing groups on those records just sound like the early Supremes?

[robb_k]

3990
I've listened to those 1965 James Dee Enrica cuts and The Walt Jessup single. That New York Primettes group has NONE of The Supremes' voices. Why would The successful 1965 Supremes moonlight in New York for a tiny NY label??? It makes no sense. The Jessup record was recorded at earliest in 1964. The '64 Supremes would NOT have moonlighted for an even tinier NY label. On this one, the voices are even more clearly NOT The Supremes. This is what happens when Internet writers don't fully research their topics and have little knowledge of their subject. This New York Primettes female backing group started LONG after Detroit's Primettes signed with Motown and changed their name.

However, it seems clear that The early Supremes at Motown DID moonlight with Robert West's Lupine Records in 1961, and with Wilbur Golden and Robert Bateman's Correc-Tone Records in 1962.

[ejluther]

Thanks for all the great information - it's much appreciated! And my confusion about the Jessup and Dee records certainly was heightened because the name "Primettes" is on the labels - thanks for the information you just posted about this other group of singers called "the primettes" - I wasn't sure of the timeline of these records and now it all makes sense.
39883989

Al Gardner could sing in falsetto, too.Well that explains why those records by him sound so different then!

Are there plenty of other records The Supremes/Primettes would have sung on besides those mentioned on this thread already? Including all the Eddie Floyd tracks included on LOOKING BACK WITH...? Or is there just no real way to know for sure? Thanks again for all the info and I'm very interested in anything else you might have to add...

[robb_k]

3991
I would guess that The Primettes/Supremes would have sung on the flip of Wilson Pickett's Correc-Tone single, which was "My Heart Belongs to You". The group sounds enough like them, and was recorded in the same session.

[ejluther]

Very good to know- thanks again [[and keep it comin')!

Robert West seems like an interesting guy - is there somewhere I could learn more about him? And what's a good place I could look to for a timeline of when these records were recorded [[and/or released)? This resource also on soulful detroit has release dates:
http://soulfuldetroit.com/web16-correctone/09/09-Recordings.htm

Does that mean The Supremes/Primettes would have also sung on Gino Washington's 1962 version of "I'm a Coward" [[assuming they are on "Puppet On A String")?

[robb_k]

3993
We have a very thorough history of Robert West's Detroit R&B/Soul production career on a "webisode" here on Soulful Detroit. Click on "Soulful Detroit Home Page" on the upper left-hand corner of this page's header, and look for "Webisodes". I forget the exact path but you will be directed. look for "Robert West".

As to other "information" listed on this thread:
I just listened to Correc-Tone's 1962 versions of "Puppet On A String" and "I'm a Coward" by Gino Washington. The female backing group does NOT sound at all like The Supremes. They sound a LOT like The Rochelles, Gino's backing group on Amon/Wand Records' 1963-1964 releases. I really doubt that The Supremes supplied backing for Gino. The female group behind James Velvet [[Correc-Tone) sounds like they COULD be The Supremes, but I can't be sure [[as I am with them backing up Wilson Pickett). I listened to Pickett's other Correc-Tone[[Robert Bateman) 1963 recordings [[on Double-L singles and album). The female back-up group on those cuts is NOT The Supremes [[in my estimation).

The Al Garner, Gene Martin, Don Revels Lupine recordings were probably backed by The Primettes in 1960- and 1961 [[probably ALL before they signed with Motown [[but, I'm not sure about The Gene Martin recording date. It may have occurred after The Supremes signed with Motown).

[ejluther]

Thanks for the info on the webisode and I'll be checking that out for sure...

And thanks again for all the other info - you're clearly got golden ears...

FYI: as you can see, this guy/blog really thinks the supremes are on the Gino records but I don't know why:
http://dereksdaily45.blogspot.com/2009/01/gino-washington-puppet-on-string.html
http://dereksdaily45.blogspot.com/2011/08/wilson-pickett-let-me-be-your-boy.html

[robb_k]

3995
The person who wrote that article doesn't have his "facts" straight. He states "Shortly after recording this record [[Gino Washington's "Puppet On A String", The Primettes changed their name to "The Supremes". That CAN'T be possible, as The Supremes signed their Motown contract in early 1961, and The Gino Washington Correc-Tone single was released in spring 1962. Clearly, The Supremes were moonlighting as background singers with Robert Bateman run Correc-Tone [[at least on the Wilson Pickett single, and likely on the James Velvet. But, I don't hear them on the Gino Washington. That's curious, as the author of that article quotes another person [[ostensibly a so-called "Supremes' expert) as saying that he hears the voices of both Mary and Flo on "Puppet on a String". That is possible. But, I don't hear them on that one-only on the Pickett and Velvet cuts.

[P-Shark: The Revenge]

And then there were the original Supremes who were a male doowop group.
I posted to the main forum
http://soulfuldetroit.com/showthread.php?4479-The-Supremes&p=82663#post82663

[ejluther]

The person who wrote that article doesn't have his "facts" straight.
That's why I'm really glad I found this forum - a lot of what you find on the web is just simply unreliable.

That's curious, as the author of that article quotes another person [[ostensibly a so-called "Supremes' expert) as saying that he hears the voices of both Mary and Flo on "Puppet on a String".
I don't see his mention of Mary or him quoting anyone else - just his own take on Flo's voice [[and dismissal of Diana's). Are you looking at something different than I am?
http://dereksdaily45.blogspot.com/2009/01/gino-washington-puppet-on-string.html

I did not know about the male Supremes, P-Shark - thanks!

[Jimi LaLumia]

someone should ask Mary Wilson, no?

[ejluther]

I'd absolutely love to hear what Mary had to say about this...

[robb_k]

That's why I'm really glad I found this forum - a lot of what you find on the web is just simply unreliable.

I don't see his mention of Mary or him quoting anyone else - just his own take on Flo's voice [[and dismissal of Diana's). Are you looking at something different than I am?
http://dereksdaily45.blogspot.com/2009/01/gino-washington-puppet-on-string.html

I did not know about the male Supremes, P-Shark - thanks!

3996
Sorry. You are correct. It is just his own take on hearing Flo's voice. I must have read that on the comments on the You-Tube page when I listened to the song, or the flip, "I'm a Coward".

You should listen to the cu on You-Tube and tell me if the background girls sound like The Supremes.

The male Supremes were an Ohio group who were brought down to New Orleans to record for Ace Records. There were also Supremes instrumental groups in the '50s and '60s.

[luke]

Mary Wilson in Only the Stong Survive docuumentary, says she and Flo went to Chicage to record behind Jerry Butler! Im surprised Berry looked the other way when they were moonlighting after they became the Supremes!!

[ejluther]

You should listen to the cu on You-Tube and tell me if the background girls sound like The Supremes.
Well, they do sound different than the background vocals on, say, Wilson Pickett's "Let Me Be Your Boy" to me, that's for sure...

Here are the links for others to check out if they like:
PUPPET ON A STRING: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdcboBfNah0
LET ME BE YOUR BOY: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1HAKeszhB0


Mary Wilson in Only the Stong Survive docuumentary, says she and Flo went to Chicage to record behind Jerry Butler!
Any idea on what songs?

[luke]

No-she gave Berry a dig and said Butler paid them more than Motown! Gordy was in the audience!

[robb_k]

3997
Starting in 1964, The Supremes were fairly entrenched at Motown. I'd guess that any Chicago moonlighting would have occurred no later than 1963, but, most probably only in 1961 and 1962.

I listened to all the Wilson Pickett, James Velvet and Gino Washington Correc-Tone cuts [[501, 502, 503), I clearly hear Diane and Flo [[and probably Mary) on the Pickett cuts. The group behind Velvet sound a lot like The Supremes/Primettes, but no distinct voices tell me for sure. The Gino Washington cuts sound like a different female group. Bateman used various female groups for backgrounds at Correc-Tone. Even The Andantes may have been one [[but not behind Washington). I think that group was the same group billed as "The Rochelles" behind him on Amon [[one year later).

[luke]

Come to think of it Mary indicated Berry did not know about it! Maybe thats why Diana didnt go!

[uptight]

Haha! You mean BG didn't know because Diana didn't go, right? LOL

[reese]

In her first book, Mary wrote that the Jerry Butler song she sang on was A TEENIE WEENIE BIT OF YOUR LOVE, produced by Curtis Mayfield.

[markdtiller]

This is a list I have, which is an amalgamation of mine and Andy Skurow's research. He was intending to put a list of confirmed backing vocal credits in the liner notes of "Meet The Supremes". To be honest it's never going to be definitive, but perhaps with the contributions of the expertise here we can get close to it. He actually got Mary Wilson to listen to a lot of the recordings to confirm whether she and the other girls contributed. He mainly used the "Motown Singles" volumes and didn't get as far as the albums for the likes of Mary Wells, for whom they did quite a few b/vs and there's certainly unreleased songs on which they id b/vs too.

DIANA ROSS & THE SUPREMES – THE BACKING VOCALS [[2 CDs)

The Primettes:
1. Tears Of Sorrow
2. Pretty Baby
3. I Found A Love – The Falcons
4. Let Me Be Your Boy – Wilson Pickett
5. I’ll Get Along Without You – Al Garner
6. I’ll Get Along – Marv Johnson
7. All I Need Is You – Marv Johnson
8. Lonely Nights – Gene Martin
9. Return Of Stagger Lee – Don Revel
10. Baby Won’t You Change Your Mind – Al Garner
11. Roll On – Walt Jessup
12. Puppet On A String – Gino Washington
13. Bouquet Of Flowers – James Velvet
14. When I Needed You – James Velvet
15. Brenda – Eddie Holland
16. Just Ain’t Enough Love – Eddie Holland

Motown Backing Vocals:
17. Itsy Bity Pity Love – Debbie Dean
18. But I’m Afraid – Debbie Dean
19. Love Me – Pete Hartfield
20. Angel In Blue – Joel Sebastian
21. Blue Cinderella - Joel Sebastian
22. Strange Love – Mary Wells
23. Come To Me – Mary Wells
24. Bad Boy - Mary Wells
25. The Day Will Come – Freddie Gorman
26. What Makes You Love Him – Sammy Ward
27. Small Sad Sam – Bob Kayli
28. Tie Me Tight – Bob Kayli
29. Whose Heart [[Are You Gonna Break Now) – Don McKenzie
30. I’ll Call You – Don McKenzie
31. The One Who Really Loves You – The Marvelettes

1. I’m Finally Through With You – Mable John
2. I’m Gonna Stay – Mary Wells
3. Big Joe Moe – Singin’ Sammy Ward
4. Everybody’s Talking About My Baby – Debbie Dean
5. What About Me – Eddie Holland
6. Sleep [[Little One) – Herman Ward
7. I’ll Cry A Million Tears – Mickey McCullers
8. Hold On Pearl – Bob Kayli
9. I’m Hooked – Bunny Paul
10. We’re Only Young Once – Bunny Paul
11. I’ll Make It Up To You Somehow – Amos Milburn
12. Back To School Again – Morocco Music Makers
13. It Should Have Been Me – Kim Weston
14. You Lost The Sweetest Boy – Mary Wells
15. My Heart Is Like A Clock - Mary Wells
16. Whisper You Love Me Boy - Mary Wells
17. What Goes Up Must Come Down – Holland Dozier
18. Honey Boy - Mary Wells
19. Not Now, I’ll Tell You Later [[Album Edit) – The Temptations
20. Can I Get A Witness – Marvin Gaye with The Temptations
21. You’re A Wonderful One - Marvin Gaye
22. Have A Little Patience And Wait - Marvin Wells
23. Set Me Free – Lee Alan
24. You’re Gonna Love My Baby – Barbara McNair
25. The Touch Of Time - Barbara McNair
26. Going To A Go Go – Brenda Holloway