Valerie on the Tammi vocals question----At last!!!!!!!

[daddyacey]

http://soulfuldetroit.com/showthread.php?4206-New-Valerie-Simpson-Interview

Q. There are some Motown people who contend that near the end of Tammi Terrell's life [[she died in 1970 at age 24 of cancer), you had to step in and do some of her vocal parts on the albums with Marvin Gaye because she was too ill to perform. Is that true?

A. Tammi was very ill. We would have everything ready, the track and Marvin's vocal, and then I'd get her alone in the studio and we'd go line by line. There were a couple things that were tweaked, but not a lot. I couldn't just sing like Tammi. People give me the credit of thinking I could be Tammi Terrell, but it's just not true. We did some production edits to fix things, but that's about it.

"There were a couple things that were tweaked, but not a lot. We did some production edits to fix things, but that's about it."
" I'd get her alone in the studio and we'd go line by line."

I take that as she is saying in fact it was both of them. At some points Val was "punched in" , she may have emulated Tammis diction as close as possible and then they may have EQ' d and proccessed for tone.

"I couldn't just sing like Tammi. People give me the credit of thinking I could be Tammi Terrell, but it's just not true."

Words of admiration from one artist regarding anothers gift. Delivered with class and grace.
If the truth is the light ,as the saying goes, then Ms Valerie has indeed just flicked the light switch on.

[jobeterob]

I read this the other evening. I think it will be hard for some fans to accept this but the best evidence is from Valerie and this is what she says and I think we must accept it.

[mysterysinger]

Yeh Val knows her onions [[or her Onion Songs) eh?

[RossHolloway]

I read this the other evening. I think it will be hard for some fans to accept this but the best evidence is from Valerie and this is what she says and I think we must accept it.

I think Valerie has incentives [[$) to not say that its her on those songs. Listen to the album in question and songs and questions and they are not the same singers. Marvin Gaye, before he died, stated that it was Valerie Simpson on those songs. What motive would Marvin Gaye have for making that statement? If Motown could replace Mary and Florence on recordings for years and have no one the wiser, then why wouldn't they replace an ailing Tammi Terrell?

[bradsupremes]

I read this the other evening. I think it will be hard for some fans to accept this but the best evidence is from Valerie and this is what she says and I think we must accept it.

I agree with RossHolloway. Why would Marvin Gaye make up some complete lie? Out of everyone at Motown, he loved and cared for Tammi the most. Do you think he would just make up some story? I have strong feeling that Marvin wouldn't lie about these recordings. Just because Valerie says it's not her doesn't mean it's completely true and that we should accept it. Plus, take a look at the Complete Motown Singles and the recording information regarding the singles from the "Easy" album. If you notice, it tells you when Marvin recorded his leads, but nowhere does it mention Tammi's name. It just states "Vocals." Now, if you go back to the actual Marvin and Tammi singles from 1967 and 1968, you'll notice that the recording information lists when Tammi recorded her vocals. The evidence is right there.

I've come to realize that the songs people question who are on the recordings are the songs people don't want to know the complete truth. If everyone is questioning if Tammi is on the "Easy" album and that all indications point to Valerie Simpson, why should accept Valerie's defense that she isn't? The same applies to several Supremes recordings where people question whether Florence is on the songs or not. If you're questioning it, then that's saying a lot right there. Evidence is right there on the tapes.

[jobeterob]

I knew lots of people, committed fans, would never buy what Valerie said.

If this were a Court and Valerie actually testified this way, I'm pretty sure it would be accpeted; and most of the others who could comment are no longer alive. And any hearsay would be excluded.

But whether it is completely true or not is another matter; I actually fall in the same camp as Brad and Ross. Perhaps Valerie's memory isn't perfect anymore. It is also possible she feels some emotional commitment to preserving what her, Nick, Marvin and Tammi did. And I suppose it is also possible that she might have contracted to remain silent; I doubt it, but it's possible. [[If it were all done today, she would almost certainly have signed a contract agreeing to remain silent).

Quite clearly, her words won't end the debate.

[jboy88]

Actually, I read over Marvin's revelation, and his statements appeared to be more flawed than Val's! He stated that it "might" be Tammi on "I Can't Believe You Love Me", a track recorded well before the Idea of Marvin and Tammi came to be. Plus, Marvin wasn't quite mentally stable by '83, after years of drugs use. I also read that he would smoke weed in the studio during sessions, leading me to believe he may have been high during the sessions he did with Valerie standing in [[as was the case with the later Diana Ross duets)

While we're on the subject of recording info, 8 of the 10 disputed tracks were recorded in March of 1969, with all of the female vocals done the same day1 Plus, Dark side if the world, was recorded around the same time and intended for Marvin Tammi, but only Marvin's vocals were recorded! That said, if Valerie was really singing all of Tammi's parts, Why didn't she do te same for "Dark Side of the world"

Frankly, I believe that if Tammi was really too ill to record anything, the "Easy" album would of never happened! Otherwise I think we'd of lost Tammi a lot sooner!

[RossHolloway]

Actually, I read over Marvin's revelation, and his statements appeared to be more flawed than Val's! He stated that it "might" be Tammi on "I Can't Believe You Love Me", a track recorded well before the Idea of Marvin and Tammi came to be. Plus, Marvin wasn't quite mentally stable by '83, after years of drugs use. I also read that he would smoke weed in the studio during sessions, leading me to believe he may have been high during the sessions he did with Valerie standing in [[as was the case with the later Diana Ross duets)

While we're on the subject of recording info, 8 of the 10 disputed tracks were recorded in March of 1969, with all of the female vocals done the same day1 Plus, Dark side if the world, was recorded around the same time and intended for Marvin Tammi, but only Marvin's vocals were recorded! That said, if Valerie was really singing all of Tammi's parts, Why didn't she do te same for "Dark Side of the world"

Frankly, I believe that if Tammi was really too ill to record anything, the "Easy" album would of never happened! Otherwise I think we'd of lost Tammi a lot sooner!


Well look at the number of tracks that we now know are Tammi solo songs that Marvin later sung to on the Easy lp. Or what about the track We'll Be Satisfied on their anthology. That song wasn't released until well after the fact, was it just forgotten about during that time frame or was it left in the can for another reason? A couple other facts to point out: in an interview in either Ebony or Jet magazine Tammi herself stated that she hadn't recorded in about a year and a half, and yet we know that songs were being recorded and released as Marvin and Tammi songs. Also on Tammi's own anthology collection the last solo side that she recorded was in November 1967 about a month after she collapsed while performing live with MG. Why were there no other solo recordings? Tammi also had either 8 or 9 brain surgeries between late '67 and 1970. When would she have had time to recover from BRAIN SURGERY and travel to Detroit to record? Can anyone explain that to me?

[RossHolloway]

One more point: has anyone ever uploaded the Marvin and Tammi complete collection into iTunes? Did it not give anyone pause for questions when a number of songs when loaded up are credited to Marvin Gaye and VALERIE SIMPSON? The artist information would have been done by a Universal Motown producer and NOT iTunes. If Motown could substitute Mary and Florence, they why wouldn't they substitute Tammi Terrell?

[hwume]

I produced that set and I have no idea why the digital artist credits read that way. No one purposely inputted the information with Valere's name. I'll certainly check it out after the break.

[bankhousedave]

I've tried to avoid this rather macabre business over the years. Really nothing has changed here from the way it was told in Ludie's book. Tammi was in a bad way and couldn't perform as she had before the illness. Instead of standing up and shouting, Tammi had to record the way Dusty did in Memphis - a phrase at a time. Val took extra studio time to do this when everything else was down, sometimes having to edit together the bits that worked, and chop out the bits that didn't. She expressly says that people somehow think she could sing like Tammi, and she couldn't. She worked with Tammi as long as it took, without the pressure of musicians and other parties present. The result was never going to be Tammi at her vital, unique best, but it was what she could achieve. Maybe Val 'punched in' some phrases that just could not be got, but my experience from back then is that that was by no means as easy as the phrase suggests. You had some geniuses, but editing then was a physical process and, nine times out of ten, that kind of thng stood out like a sore thumb. The analogy about using backing singers such as the Andantes, to make hit records work doesn't fit into an album - any album - but one that is based on the intimate exchanges between Marvin and Tammi just doesn't add up. It didn't have the urgency of hit single material; it didn't have any need to use tracks other than those that Tammi had already recorded [[on which Marvin could be dubbed). In short, there is no logic behind the idea of Valerie singing on the final versions - and she doesn't claim she did, even in this last interview.

If Tammi sounded a bit flat [[not musically, but performance wise), who can be surprised? If she sounds more like Val - no surprises there, either - Val is a lady who knew what she wanted, as she made very clear to Jamerson, and she also was able to play like Earl Van Dyke on piano - she alone, despite some tryers.

Tammi was not written off when thiis album was made. Berry was paying all her medical bills, and clearly conceived she would get back to what she was doing. Val is a great singer, just as she is a great composer, piano player, arranger and what all else. She was an employee of Motown at this time and Tammi's mentor and friend.

Give Tammi back her legacy and last moments on the mike.

[RossHolloway]

I produced that set and I have no idea why the digital artist credits read that way. No one purposely inputted the information with Valere's name. I'll certainly check it out after the break.

HW you don't find it "strange" that songs credited to VS would appear in iTunes that way?

[jobeterob]

So nice to see someone say nice things about Berry; he gets about one nice comment on SD for every 10 comments about ripping off his artists. Thanks for the nice comment Dave ~ regarding the payment of Tammi's medical costs.

Harry gets a break??? In my world, bosses don't get breaks; they might try and take a few though and when they do, they slip into SD.

[hwume]

HW you don't find it "strange" that songs credited to VS would appear in iTunes that way?

Of course I do, hence my post. I'll see how, why & what when I get back. And now I am REALLY taking a break.

[smark21]

It's rather amusing that fans who were not there are accusing Valerie Simpson of being a liar when it comes to her answer on the question of whether Tammi sang on those last Marvin/Tammi recordings.

[luke]

Amen bankhouse Dave!! Why would Valerie not admit it if it were true? Bankhouse-why did Dusty do a phrase at a time?

[bankhousedave]

According to Jerry Wexler, it was partly in the interests of perfection, luke, but also because she was out of her comfort zone and somewhat overawed by the fact of working with people she had always held in such esteem.

[midnight johnny]

It's not at all surprising to me that Valerie, and Nick, as well as others involved in those Marvin/Valerie tracks, would be bound by Berry Gordy, by contract or otherwise, to NOT talk about Val singing on those tracks. Berry was always one to want to maintain a certain image of Motown, and he may have also been concerned about how that knowledge would affect sales, since the Marvin/Tammi brand was so successful. It doesn't have anything to do with lying...just business and image. If people remember, Tammi's first hit, with Marvin, was engineered with Marvin's vocal being added to Tammi's solo...and it was a well-kept secret for decades...and I, and I'm sure others, believed, and WANTED to believe that they recorded it together.
I think that anyone who is interested in the truth about it can put together all the more factual information, the timeline of the recordings [[some significant information revealed in the newest Tammi Solo Collection), and also compare the various vocals. And this new information about how the Marvin/ Valerie tracks were loaded to and identified on ITunes only serves to validate those of us that believe that Valerie sang on most of the tracks on "Easy" as Tammi. And I think that some folks may not want to know the truth...that it's very important for them to maintain a very sweet and romantic idea of what happened. But, for me, what happened to Tammi, was not only sweet and romantic, but very tragic and sad...and I think that it complicated Motown's plans for Tammi and Marvin. I don't think there are any liars or evil in any of this. I just think that people did what they felt they needed to...for Tammi, and for whatever other reasons they had.
...a peaceful Thanksgiving to you all...

[ejluther]

Did it not give anyone pause for questions when a number of songs when loaded up are credited to Marvin Gaye and VALERIE SIMPSON? The artist information would have been done by a Universal Motown producer and NOT iTunes. If Motown could substitute Mary and Florence, they why wouldn't they substitute Tammi Terrell?
Not always true about a UM Producer doing that. iTunes uses a database from a company called GRACENOTE for that information:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gracenote

Gracenote’s database was originally created from and continues to receive voluntary contributions from users.
This explains why often times the information from iTunes is wrong and not 100% reliable [[it's happened quite a few times to me on various releases). I'm not saying Valerie didn't sing on these songs, I'm just saying that the fact that the downloaded information via iTunes/Gracenote said she did doesn't mean anything other than someone submitted that information. And that someone could be anyone with an internet connection and not someone in a position to speak with authority on the matter.

[kenneth]

I respect Valerie Simpson. She's a huge talent, a great lady and has a vast amount of integrity. I think she is saying what she is saying, not because of past contractual obligations [[which I'm sure were in place), but to protect Tammi's legacy. At the time, I don't think any such scandal had ever been revealed, and it certainly could have damaged Motown's reputation, caused people to accuse them of "cashing in" on Tammi's death. At the very least it would have been false advertising.

Still, even when I was a teenager and heard the "Easy" album, I wondered why Tammi sounded so different. Her lightness was gone. I don't attribute it to her illness; if anything her voice was stronger. But it was forced-sounding, exaggerated. It was an impersonation. I also knew, even then, that "I Can't Believe You Love Me" was an overdubbed Tammi solo recording, and it comes out now, years later, that so was "More, More, More."

Still, even more evidence exists which convinces me it was not Tammi on the "Easy" album. She'd been ill for some time by then, and even most of the "You're All I Need" album was previously canned Tammi Solo recordings overdubbed by Marvin to turn them into duets. Not the case with "Easy." Ten out of 12 "original" tracks which she newly recorded 6 to 8 months before her untimely death is just impossible to believe. In addition, the annotations in the Complete Motown Singles box has some clues such as the credits for "The Onion Song" which show "Marvin Gaye Vocal" but instead of Tammi, just shows "Female Vocal" and "Additional Vocal" as I recall, though I'm not looking at it at the moment.

I believe Marvin had no reason to claim it was Valerie when he told this to his biographer. The fact that Simpson's words will not ever convince me that it was Tammi on the "Easy" album does nothing to dispel my belief that Simpson is a great lady who even today refuses to claim the credit which she so easily could do, after all these years. If anything, I think even more highly of her for this than I did before.

[jboy88]

Bankhouse hit it dead on,but that doesn't settle the arguement! It seems a lot of people just don't want to entertain the thought of an ailing Tammi singing even one line on the album! Because every time this thread comes up, everyone swears that it's all Val and no Tammi. But to me it goes beyond just listening to the music! You have to consider the type of person Tammi was and how determined she was to sing! And given all i've read and heard about her, I think if she didn't sing on "Good Lovin' Ain't Easy", There would of been no "Easy" album!

[midnight johnny]

I respect Valerie Simpson. She's a huge talent, a great lady and has a vast amount of integrity. I think she is saying what she is saying, not because of past contractual obligations [[which I'm sure were in place), but to protect Tammi's legacy. At the time, I don't think any such scandal had ever been revealed, and it certainly could have damaged Motown's reputation, caused people to accuse them of "cashing in" on Tammi's death. At the very least it would have been false advertising.

Still, even when I was a teenager and heard the "Easy" album, I wondered why Tammi sounded so different. Her lightness was gone. I don't attribute it to her illness; if anything her voice was stronger. But it was forced-sounding, exaggerated. It was an impersonation. I also knew, even then, that "I Can't Believe You Love Me" was an overdubbed Tammi solo recording, and it comes out now, years later, that so was "More, More, More."

Still, even more evidence exists which convinces me it was not Tammi on the "Easy" album. She'd been ill for some time by then, and even most of the "You're All I Need" album was previously canned Tammi Solo recordings overdubbed by Marvin to turn them into duets. Not the case with "Easy." Ten out of 12 "original" tracks which she newly recorded 6 to 8 months before her untimely death is just impossible to believe. In addition, the annotations in the Complete Motown Singles box has some clues such as the credits for "The Onion Song" which show "Marvin Gaye Vocal" but instead of Tammi, just shows "Female Vocal" and "Additional Vocal" as I recall, though I'm not looking at it at the moment.

I believe Marvin had no reason to claim it was Valerie when he told this to his biographer. The fact that Simpson's words will not ever convince me that it was Tammi on the "Easy" album does nothing to dispel my belief that Simpson is a great lady who even today refuses to claim the credit which she so easily could do, after all these years. If anything, I think even more highly of her for this than I did before.

Kenneth...I totally agree with you. I would only add that, to me, it was the numerous surgeries that probably impaired Tammi to the point of being unable to record. In those days, neurosurgery was much less delicate than now, and often caused serious functional impairment. Note that Tammi recorded "It's Been a Long Time Happenin'" after her "event" while on stage with Marvin, and her vocal showed absolutely no impairment. But the tracks that are thought to be done by Marvin and Valerie were done after the surgeries had started, not to mention all the "engineered" tracks that were on the "You're All I Need" and "Easy" albums.

[hwume]

Not always true about a UM Producer doing that. iTunes uses a database from a company called GRACENOTE for that information:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gracenote

This explains why often times the information from iTunes is wrong and not 100% reliable [[it's happened quite a few times to me on various releases). I'm not saying Valerie didn't sing on these songs, I'm just saying that the fact that the downloaded information via iTunes/Gracenote said she did doesn't mean anything other than someone submitted that information. And that someone could be anyone with an internet connection and not someone in a position to speak with authority on the matter.

I dug down into this and that's exactly what happened. A listener uploaded their own information to the Gracenote service and that data was accepted. This will change back to the correct artist info shortly.

[mysterysinger]

I'm stating the obvious here but in the booklet to The Complete Duets, Brian Chin states that by the time Easy was in production, Tammi was no longer strong enough to sing at all and Valerie Simpson would stand in, uncredited, for most of the LP. Marvin told Ritz that it felt strange singing to Valerie - he felt guilty.

In TCMS Val said she would stand in initially but once Marvin had his vocals down, they would bring Tammi in and record her in a different way as she wasn't well. Of course, it's possible that this inital standing in is what Marvin was referring to when he said he was singing to Val.

Surely the tapes in the vault hold the answer? You know, maybe both sets of vocals from Valerie and Tammi, if indeed that is what happened?

[thisoldheart]

all you have to do is listen to marvin & tammi's [[val) "easy", listen marvin & tammi's previous albums, and valerie simpson's "exposed". on "easy" valerie sings all tracks [[except for the two tammi overdubbed tracks). valerie usually sings less, under marvin, or mixed lower than on the previous albums. val's voice is shriller, even in her lower register. listen to the one track where valerie really does a fair amount of singing "baby i need your loving" to get the sense of her impersonation of tammi. tammi is only shrill in her highest register. val has a more earnest, gospel twang. tammi is lazier, more fun. valerie sounds much better on her solo album where she quits constraining herself for her tammi impersonation and can be her gutsy gospel self. tammi is pure fun girl pop [[just watch her tease marvin on their few tv appearances. tammi is a fantastic easy going and joyous singer. valerie is a musician and very concerned with control and her craft.

i have to say i felt betrayed by motown, especially for the release of "good lovin' ain't easy". motown fooled me on this on and i felt it was a damn fine single. that makes me realize why people here don't want to give up certain marvin and tammi tracks that are sung by val. now that i know the truth the "easy" album has grown on me as a fine marvin and valerie album. motown can call the album whatever it wants, but it will still be a great album. marvin, val, nick, and of course the money man mr. gordy were all in on this deception. i would expect marvin to be the only upfront one in the bunch. val's last statement about punching in a few lines is the closest she has come to admiting the truth. i do think that as the writer and producer she feels compelled to keep up the deception because marvin and tammi were her ticket to fame.

[jboy88]

"Good Lovin' Ain't Easy To Come By" was always my jam! When I first heard it wasn't Tammi, it was like finding out Santa Didn't exist! But I still enjoyed the song and the album! But one day Tammi's version of "This Old Heart of Mine" came up on my Itunes [[A song I hadn't heard in a while at that time) and actually thought it was Valerie, because the vocals were near perfect to that of "Good Lovin"!

[jillfoster]

Kenneth...I totally agree with you. I would only add that, to me, it was the numerous surgeries that probably impaired Tammi to the point of being unable to record. In those days, neurosurgery was much less delicate than now, and often caused serious functional impairment. Note that Tammi recorded "It's Been a Long Time Happenin'" after her "event" while on stage with Marvin, and her vocal showed absolutely no impairment. But the tracks that are thought to be done by Marvin and Valerie were done after the surgeries had started, not to mention all the "engineered" tracks that were on the "You're All I Need" and "Easy" albums.

Your'e a nurse, you should know better than this. Impairment would completely depend upon what part of the brain was affected by her tumor and subsequent surgeries. She was still able to speak to people during the whole ordeal, so the problem was obviously not the speech center of her brain. what was this I read about her being in the audience at the Apollo in the fall of 69, and singing a bit with Marvin when he came off stage and gave her a microphone?

[jboy88]

That was recalled on Tammi's "Unsung" last year! More evidences to why I don't believe Tammi was completely absent from "Easy"! Marvin was performing their duets with Carla Thomas! Tammi kept it together until they began "Your All I Need", when Tammi got up and started singing! Marvin saw Tammi and left Carla on the stage and did the song with Tammi instead, to a standing ovation!

[midnight johnny]

Your'e a nurse, you should know better than this. Impairment would completely depend upon what part of the brain was affected by her tumor and subsequent surgeries. She was still able to speak to people during the whole ordeal, so the problem was obviously not the speech center of her brain. what was this I read about her being in the audience at the Apollo in the fall of 69, and singing a bit with Marvin when he came off stage and gave her a microphone?

You'll have to come up with more than some unsubstantiated points spouted in an obnoxious way to disprove the facts.

[mysterysinger]

Just listened again to some of those suspect tracks and to be honest...I'm really no wiser, and either way, they really are great!

For a moment though I thought maybe Marvin had a stand in too -JJ.Barnes. He certainly could have done it he sounds enough like Marvin on some of his material.

Just my taste, of course, but the Diana and Marvin stuff is weaker, in every respect, to what went before.

[RossHolloway]

Mysterysinger have you listen to the Tammi Terrell Anthology? Listen to that set and then listen to the tracks in question. If you can't hear the difference then you may want to look into getting a hearing aid my friend. Saying you can't tell the difference is like saying you can't tell the difference between a song sung by the Supremes and a song sung by the Marvelettes. It's like night and day.

[thisoldheart]

exactly, RossHolloway!

[mysterysinger]

Ah now a hearing aid - actually I have to wear two [[no joke) but I won't hold it against you. But then I didn't say I couldn't hear differences, just that I'm no wiser as to whether Tammi is also in there or not as seems to be the claim at the top of the thread. I do subscribe to the view that its Val. Now as for The Marvelettes, I can't tell them from The Darnells [[well except on Come On Home). I certainly can tell the difference between Diana Ross and Brenda Holloway - one is gorgeous, sexy and talented, and the other is a former Supreme. Love em both though.

[RossHolloway]

Does anyone know where Tammi Terrell's vocals were supposedly recorded for the Easy album? The reason why I ask this question is because knowing what we know about Motown and that they recorded songs not just in Detroit but also Chicago, Los Angeles and New York, then why would Ashford & Simpson bring a frail and ailing Tammi Terrell all the way back to Detroit to record? Why wouldn't they have recorded in NYC or heck even Philadelphia where Tammi was living and recovering from her surgeries?

[motony]

If you notice the 45's beginning with "Good Lovin....:were not promoted...why?

[jboy88]

According to the TCMS 69 notes, Marvin's vocals for "Good Lovin" were done in New York so I guess Tammi's were done there as well! The rest were done at either Hitsville or Golden World! Tammi was enroute to the "Easy" sessions in Detroit, when she encountered two fans who thought she had died, So she was at least in the room when the songs were recorded!

[bankhousedave]

The evidence is coming together here, Jobete. As our legal eagle, I suggest that you declare the medical evidence inadmissable. I won't tread on your honour's toes when it comes to hearsay, but it is our submission that the vocals were recorded by the butler's wife in the library with an eight-track.

[midnight johnny]

Does anyone know where Tammi Terrell's vocals were supposedly recorded for the Easy album? The reason why I ask this question is because knowing what we know about Motown and that they recorded songs not just in Detroit but also Chicago, Los Angeles and New York, then why would Ashford & Simpson bring a frail and ailing Tammi Terrell all the way back to Detroit to record? Why wouldn't they have recorded in NYC or heck even Philadelphia where Tammi was living and recovering from her surgeries?

RossHolloway...another excellent point!

[midnight johnny]

I've tried to avoid this rather macabre business over the years. Really nothing has changed here from the way it was told in Ludie's book. Tammi was in a bad way and couldn't perform as she had before the illness. Instead of standing up and shouting, Tammi had to record the way Dusty did in Memphis - a phrase at a time. Val took extra studio time to do this when everything else was down, sometimes having to edit together the bits that worked, and chop out the bits that didn't. She expressly says that people somehow think she could sing like Tammi, and she couldn't. She worked with Tammi as long as it took, without the pressure of musicians and other parties present. The result was never going to be Tammi at her vital, unique best, but it was what she could achieve. Maybe Val 'punched in' some phrases that just could not be got, but my experience from back then is that that was by no means as easy as the phrase suggests. You had some geniuses, but editing then was a physical process and, nine times out of ten, that kind of thng stood out like a sore thumb. The analogy about using backing singers such as the Andantes, to make hit records work doesn't fit into an album - any album - but one that is based on the intimate exchanges between Marvin and Tammi just doesn't add up. It didn't have the urgency of hit single material; it didn't have any need to use tracks other than those that Tammi had already recorded [[on which Marvin could be dubbed). In short, there is no logic behind the idea of Valerie singing on the final versions - and she doesn't claim she did, even in this last interview.

If Tammi sounded a bit flat [[not musically, but performance wise), who can be surprised? If she sounds more like Val - no surprises there, either - Val is a lady who knew what she wanted, as she made very clear to Jamerson, and she also was able to play like Earl Van Dyke on piano - she alone, despite some tryers.

Tammi was not written off when thiis album was made. Berry was paying all her medical bills, and clearly conceived she would get back to what she was doing. Val is a great singer, just as she is a great composer, piano player, arranger and what all else. She was an employee of Motown at this time and Tammi's mentor and friend.

Give Tammi back her legacy and last moments on the mike.

Dave...no offense. But what you've posted here...it is more expanded and specific than anything we have ever heard, even from Valerie, and you make it sound as though it is fact. Can you say where you got this information.

And I really don't think that it mars Tammi's legacy...not to me anyway... to point out so many cracks in a very implausible story, made up to present Tammi...and Marvin in a very particular way. I'll point out yet again how Tammi's career with Marvin began with an untruth...that Tammi and Marvin recorded "ANMHE" together...instead of the fact that Marvin was engineered onto Tammi's solo track. To me, it finished the way it started...so it's not all that surprising...but very ironic. Tammi's legacy for me is in every track on which she actually sang.

[motony]

Tammi Terrell was a phoenomenal vocalist!She was before she signed to Motown.As big as Marvin & Tammi were as a duo, I find it quite starnge that the cover of "Easy" was a drawing & the LP and all 45's from it were not really promoted...because she was terminally ill. The LP & 45's were for her benefit, to help the tremendous financial burden.I sure don't think any less of anyone involved.Motown was a business but they showed they could have heart.

[luke]

Nicely said motony. Why cant we just accept what valerie says is beyond me. To honor her truth and Tammi's legacy. Such acrimony! Valerie is ok not taking credit and Tammi is dead!

[kenneth]

Tammi Terrell was a phenomenal vocalist!She was before she signed to Motown.As big as Marvin & Tammi were as a duo, I find it quite starnge that the cover of "Easy" was a drawing & the LP and all 45's from it were not really promoted...because she was terminally ill. The LP & 45's were for her benefit, to help the tremendous financial burden.I sure don't think any less of anyone involved.Motown was a business but they showed they could have heart.

Actually, I'd never thought about the album cover before, but you bring up something interesting. It's almost certain Motown had no recent studio photographs of Tammi, and we've seen how drastically her illness affected her looks, if you see those heartbreaking photos from the Ebony [[or was it Jet?) magazine someone posted a while back. She was of course still attractive but bone thin, obviously ill. Supposedly, this was from the time frame before she would have recorded "Easy." And Motown almost certainly had no recent photos of Marvin and Tammi together at the time. So the drawing, although I think it really comes off well, likely was a practical solution other than recycling an older photograph.

Likely for the same reasons, the following "Marvin Gaye and Tammi Terrell's Greatest Hits" album sported two separate photos of the singers as I recall [[I think Tammi's was a live shot) and "Marvin Gaye and His Girls" recycled a photograph, which I think was from the "United" cover. I don't believe the "Complete Duets" CD has any photos new to us, either, except maybe slightly different poses from the same sessions.

[jboy88]

Dave...no offense. But what you've posted here...it is more expanded and specific than anything we have ever heard, even from Valerie, and you make it sound as though it is fact. Can you say where you got this information.

And I really don't think that it mars Tammi's legacy...not to me anyway... to point out so many cracks in a very implausible story, made up to present Tammi...and Marvin in a very particular way. I'll point out yet again how Tammi's career with Marvin began with an untruth...that Tammi and Marvin recorded "ANMHE" together...instead of the fact that Marvin was engineered onto Tammi's solo track. To me, it finished the way it started...so it's not all that surprising...but very ironic. Tammi's legacy for me is in every track on which she actually sang.

Dave's only repeating the same points that's been brought up in the past by individuals who were close to Tammi! I'm under the impression that fans are more comfortable with it being Valerie Simpson on the album and not Tammi! And I hear all these reasons why Val's not telling the truth; contracts, money etc. What makes what Dave said anymore far-fetched?

I Knew when I signed up, that this would be discussed at least once a year! I've read all the ones in the past with basically the same thing! I can't tell everyone what to think, but I can give some ideas to think about. I love Tammi Terrell, her music gets heavy rotation on my Itunes and Val's "Exposed" is very underrated! But I really don't think Val had the capability to mimic Tammi's vocals for a whole album and I hear several parts on "Easy" that Tammi's sound on her solo work, Especially the aforementioned "This Old Heart of Mine" and "Your Precious Love" [[ the latter being my Favorite Tammi vocal with or without Marvin)!

That, and the legit facts i've read, is enough to prove my take. I've listened to the music over and over, and analyzed it from all ends! And that's what I came up with.

[RossHolloway]

Nicely said motony. Why cant we just accept what valerie says is beyond me. To honor her truth and Tammi's legacy. Such acrimony! Valerie is ok not taking credit and Tammi is dead!

For me the reason why I don't just take Valerie for her word is because I don't think she's telling the entire truth about the situation. We're all entitled to our own opinions, but we're not entitled to our own facts. I find it interesting that those people who have no doubts what so ever about Valerie's statement, willl blindly ignore all the other facts and pieces of evidence that support the opposite position. The bottom line is this: I know what Tammi Terrell's voice sounds like and I know what Valerie Simpson's voice sounds like. And that's Valerie's voice all over the Easy album. Do I think that it degrades Tammi's legacy? No, not really. Do I think that Motown was above doing something of this nature? Now knowing what we know about the background vocals of recordings done by the Supreme's, The Vandella's, The Marvelettes and the use of the The Andantes, I believe that Motown was totally capable of substituting Valerie for Tammi. 1967 showed that no one singer is bigger than their group or the company. Motown was in the business of making money and music, and in that order. I also believe that Valerie also does the vocals on a couple of tracks off the You're All I Need To Get By album.

I use to have my doubts about if it were Valerie or not, until I watched the Unsung program on Tammi Terrell. The clinching fact was the number of brain surgeries Tammi had between late 1967 and her death in early 1970. If I'm not mistaken, the program stated that she underwent 7 or 9 different brain surgeries. Are we really to believe that between operations Tammi was well enough to make repeated trips back to Detroit to record love songs? I'm not a rocket scientist, but I'm not the village igit either. That same Ebony article also quotes Tammi as saying that she had not recorded in a year in a half at the time of the article!! I would love to witness Valerie's explanation of that as well as Marvin's statements about the album. There's just too much evidence out there that says that it's not Tammi singing on those tracks, but instead it's Valerie Simpson. I think if anyone who knows the difference between Tammi and Valerie's voice and listen to those tracks with their ears and not their heart will know the truth as well.

[RBTEMPSFAN]

You are right RossHolloway. All of knew something sounded different when the Marvelettes sange When Your Young - all of the sudden, you hear beautiful background vocals that could not have been Kat and Gladys. So we just thought that the group sounded better.

Same with the Supremes on Love Child and Someday - all of the sudden, there is a sound unlike any harmony that Mary or Cindy or Flo did . We knew something was different. it took all of the later years to find out that other than the lead singers in the girl groups, anybody could be on background on any day.

The music was great - we loved it then - we still love it - but we all know the truth now.

[jobeterob]

I've read the books and listened to the records and the debate over the years........and while I know that if this were a Court hearing, if Valerie Simpson "swore" that her evidence was true, it would probably be the evidence that is accepted............ given that, when all is said is done, I believe the truth is what has been written here by RossHolloway, RBTemptsFan and Midnite Johnny.

I think Valerie is relaying the story to the best of her ability, after a long time; but we've heard screwed up versions of history from every Motown artist a dozen times; and history has a way of becoming what we want to believe.

[RossHolloway]

I've read the books and listened to the records and the debate over the years........and while I know that if this were a Court hearing, if Valerie Simpson "swore" that her evidence was true, it would probably be the evidence that is accepted............ given that, when all is said is done, I believe the truth is what has been written here by RossHolloway, RBTemptsFan and Midnite Johnny.

I think Valerie is relaying the story to the best of her ability, after a long time; but we've heard screwed up versions of history from every Motown artist a dozen times; and history has a way of becoming what we want to believe.

Well I think that Valerie's sworn testimony would be admissible into court evidence, as would all the other surrounding pieces of evidence that have been mentioned in this thread, and proper weight would be given to her statement and all the rest. But when you take all the "evidence" into consideration there can only be one true judgment: It's Valerie vocals on those tracks.

[bankhousedave]

Here's what Johnny Bristol and Louvain Demps had to say to Tammi's sister Ludie and Vickie Wright in the preparation of My Sister Tommie:

Tommie would be working with Johnny Bristol again, and Ashford and Simpson as well. My mother and I know how important it was for Tommie to complete her work. She was weak but she put her heart and soul into her work. Johnny remembers, “I worked with her when she was sick, and never once did she complain ever; never did she say she was tired or anything. She would just do it and try. She gave it her all when she was sick like she didn’t have a problem. A lot of people thought she was going to get better. She was up and in good moods while she was ill.”
Louvain Demps was in the studio during these sessions: “She was working so closely with Valerie. She gave her all and she showed up and tried. Her spirit came through. She was weak and a little different from the Tammi I knew, she was more quiet. She was not in a wheelchair or on crutches. Valerie has great insight, and greatness and spirit. They were together on it. Tammi is singing and Valerie helped her to make this happen. That was the greatest gift that Valerie could give to Tammi, because she knew—we all knew—how important it was for Tammi to finish the work. This was a woven masterpiece, and it was woven with a golden, loving and kind thread; it was woven with respect. The love of God is between the lines.”
Johnny Bristol shares his insight: “As far as the over-dubbing goes. It was blown out of proportion over the years. Val helped her vocally to get through those sessions. There was nothing to it and everyone agreed that Tammi would complete them one day. It was not a big deal at the time. I know where Tammi is singing and it’s all ok, under the circumstance it was the best thing to do for Tammi. The work was done with Tammi there. She was part of the process. It was important for Valerie to do this for Tammi. You can hear them both and it’s what needed to be done. The songs are important to her legacy and were great songs written for her and Marvin, it was a great representation of Tammi. It should be presented now in a loving light with no negatives.”

[jobeterob]

Thinking about this, Louvain could still give evidence and because she was there, it would be accepted. Johnny's portion from this book might be accepted for limited purposes; but it wouldn't be accepted totally because he isn't here for cross examination.

But I think they, especially Johnny, are saying what RossHolloway said. Louvain and Johnny are doing so with the utmost respect because they knew Tammi and know these people.

But it is wrong to think that fans who love this music and know it better than the artists at times, are being disrespectful ~ far from it ~ they love the music so much that they dissect it and the artists, with much love.

[bankhousedave]

Everyone who was there says the same thing. A number of those who were not say otherwise. I move that there's no case to answer, your worship.

[RossHolloway]

Here's what Johnny Bristol and Louvain Demps had to say to Tammi's sister Ludie and Vickie Wright in the preparation of My Sister Tommie:

Tommie would be working with Johnny Bristol again, and Ashford and Simpson as well. My mother and I know how important it was for Tommie to complete her work. She was weak but she put her heart and soul into her work. Johnny remembers, “I worked with her when she was sick, and never once did she complain ever; never did she say she was tired or anything. She would just do it and try. She gave it her all when she was sick like she didn’t have a problem. A lot of people thought she was going to get better. She was up and in good moods while she was ill.”
Louvain Demps was in the studio during these sessions: “She was working so closely with Valerie. She gave her all and she showed up and tried. Her spirit came through. She was weak and a little different from the Tammi I knew, she was more quiet. She was not in a wheelchair or on crutches. Valerie has great insight, and greatness and spirit. They were together on it. Tammi is singing and Valerie helped her to make this happen. That was the greatest gift that Valerie could give to Tammi, because she knew—we all knew—how important it was for Tammi to finish the work. This was a woven masterpiece, and it was woven with a golden, loving and kind thread; it was woven with respect. The love of God is between the lines.”
Johnny Bristol shares his insight: “As far as the over-dubbing goes. It was blown out of proportion over the years. Val helped her vocally to get through those sessions. There was nothing to it and everyone agreed that Tammi would complete them one day. It was not a big deal at the time. I know where Tammi is singing and it’s all ok, under the circumstance it was the best thing to do for Tammi. The work was done with Tammi there. She was part of the process. It was important for Valerie to do this for Tammi. You can hear them both and it’s what needed to be done. The songs are important to her legacy and were great songs written for her and Marvin, it was a great representation of Tammi. It should be presented now in a loving light with no negatives.”

This passage helps to create a picture, but doesn't provide a time frame. Were their words and description about Tammi in late 1967 or Tammi in late 1969? Was this the recording process after Tammi's first surgery or after her 7th brain surgery operation?

[jboy88]

This might help clear some things up! When "Your All I Need To Get By" was Recorded, Tammi had just recovered from her first operation! 8 of the 10 disputed tracks or "Easy" were done in March of '69 around the same timeframe implied in the Ebony article! By that time, Tammi had had 6 operation with the last one taken place two months prior. According to the DFTMC,She and Marvin did several tracks with Bristol for the "Your All I Need" album in Jan. of '68 a month after the sessions for "It's Been A Long Time Happenin'"

So Tammi didn't record as often as she did when she was healthy, but she recorded when it was convenient for her to do so. It's not like she was completely bedridden the last two years of her life.

[reese]

Johnny Bristol might be talking about the YOU'RE ALL I NEED album as opposed to EASY. The YOU'RE ALL I NEED sessions would have taken place in late '67, early '68. The liner notes even mention Tammi's illness. And even then, a lot of that album has Marvin singing to unreleased Tammi solo tracks.

But Bristol & Fuqua were out of the picture by the time the EASY album was recorded, or at least they have no productions on that album, aside from again, two songs where Marvin overdubbed his vocal onto Tammi solo recordings.

[mysterysinger]

A woven masterpiece - that's what they say.

[kenneth]

Johnny Bristol might be talking about the YOU'RE ALL I NEED album as opposed to EASY. The YOU'RE ALL I NEED sessions would have taken place in late '67, early '68. The liner notes even mention Tammi's illness. And even then, a lot of that album has Marvin singing to unreleased Tammi solo tracks.

But Bristol & Fuqua were out of the picture by the time the EASY album was recorded, or at least they have no productions on that album, aside from again, two songs where Marvin overdubbed his vocal onto Tammi solo recordings.

That's an important distinction.

All told, I just want to reiterate that none of this diminishes Simpson in anyone's eyes, that I can fathom. If anything, it elevates her wanting to keep Tammi's memory as it should have been, if not the way it was.

[thisoldheart]

well, i have spent the last two days listening to the complete tammi solo and duet recordings along with both of valerie simpson's records. i don't have any trouble telling the two apart! i wish people here could separate emotion from intellect but seeing how many divide into the pro and anti diana ross camps based on everything but miss ross's singing, i have decided that the tammi/valerie battle will continue ... i suggest listening instead of spouting! [[if you listen to everything it is very "easy" to tell who stepped into whose shoes and did a very good job at keeping tammi's legend alive.)

but while doing my studying i want to know how tammi's "can't stop now [[love is calling)" was never released as a single?! what a hit!! it is constant rotation here in my house. what a great arrangement. i hear what i suppose are the andants? but, who are those great guys backing tammi up?

[daddyacey]

I've posted this before . Maybe it will help in the timeline.
http://books.google.com/books?id=ZFDqAUi7h-QC&pg=PA94&dq=Tammi+Terrell&hl=en#v=onepage&q=Tammi%20Terrell&f=false [[http://books.google.com/books?id=ZFDqAUi7h-QC&pg=PA94&dq=Tammi+Terrell&hl=en#v=onepage&q=Tammi%20Terrell&f=false)

[phil]

but while doing my studying i want to know how tammi's "can't stop now [[love is calling)" was never released as a single?! what a hit!! it is constant rotation here in my house. what a great arrangement. i hear what i suppose are the andants? but, who are those great guys backing tammi up?

Thisoldheart, while listening to the song they reminded me of the Spinners, though not being 100% sure about this.

Wikipedia says the same, but everybody knows they sometimes [[often?) may be wrong. :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irresistible_%28Tammi_Terrell_album%29

[radionixon]

:o The Gracenote CD Database - as used by iTunes, Winamp etc - is compiled from data entered by the first fan who ever put the CD into their computer. This is the same database that used to claim the Pirates' "Mind Over Matter" from TCMS 2 was actually British rockers Johnny Kidd and the Pirates, rather than [[say) the Temptations under a different name. It's often a useful tool, but it's about as authoritative as saying something must be true because you overheard it in a bar one time. So let's put that to one side.

I'm a lawyer, and it's an instinctive reaction, when faced with two sides to a story, to start weighing and evaluating the evidence. I was going to go through all of this on Motown Junkies when we get up to Easy, but this seems as good a time as any.

THE CASE FOR TAMMI


Valerie Simpson - who has to be considered the Alpha and Omega of this question, given that [[a) she's the only person left alive who was definitely there, and [[b) in her version of the story she was with Tammi recording when nobody else was around, and therefore impossible to prove or disprove beyond what she says - has consistently and clearly denied subbing for Tammi, not only in the quote at the head of this thread [[which I can't believe some people are taking as an admission?!):


There were a couple things that were tweaked, but not a lot. I couldn't just sing like Tammi. People give me the credit of thinking I could be Tammi Terrell, but it's just not true. We did some production edits to fix things, but that's about it.

...but also in the liner notes to TCMS 9:


I’ve heard that so many times, but it’s not really true. To the extent that yes, when she was sick, I would stand in for her initially. But after we got Marvin’s part down, we would painstakingly bring her in and do her in a different kind of way because, at that juncture, she really wasn’t well. I’ve heard this all along, but I’m just not that good. I’m good, but I’m not that good.

...to the point that Valerie's story is easy [[!) enough to summarise: she says she sang some guide vocals on the tracks, as Marvin needed, but later brought Tammi in to the studio to sing "line by line". [[That, incidentally, is a description everyone who claims it was Tammi has used with surprising consistency.)

Johnny Bristol and Louvain Demps both give accounts - albeit perhaps not necessarily first-hand accounts - which jibe with Val's version. Of course, they could just be following the party line, or remembering things other people said.

Tammi's sister says she clearly recognises Tammi's voice on the disputed tracks. Loath as I am to dispute RossHolloway's ears, and without wanting to cause offence, if we're talking about the subjective quality of what other people say they can hear, I believe her claim carries more weight than Ross'.


Quite frankly, and this is subjective, I don't hear the vast differences others have claimed. Sure, you play Easy right after United, the voices don't sound quite the same. But similarly, you play Easy right after Exposed, they don't really sound the same either. And I personally hear a lot of that Easy "Tammi" voice in some of Terrell's undisputed "throatier" vocals, e.g. Hold Me Oh My Darling. But as I say, it's all subjective. I certainly don't think it's as much of a night and day difference as some posters have made out.



THE CASE AGAINST TAMMI



Marvin Gaye's direct testimony, as quoted in Divided Soul. Just as with Valerie above, this is the most important piece of evidence, and pretty damn difficult to overlook. A lot of court cases boil down to a "he said/she said" clash of stories, and so they hinge on the credibility of the witnesses and the way they give their testimony. I don't see why this should be so very different.

In this kind of analysis, any competent barrister would take Marvin's credibility and shatter it over his knee. Firstly, as has been pointed out upthread, Marvin not only made his claims ten years after the event, but ten rather eventful years - years full of personal triumph, turmoil, upheaval, and Olympic quantities of substance abuse. Easy to say he simply remembered wrong. Secondly, Marvin was also prone to giving interviews throughout the Seventies on any number of topics where he'd provide questionable information that's since been proven to be bollocks [[usually well-meaning bollocks, but still bollocks all the same - does anyone have that interview where he claimed the forthcoming Trouble Man LP would change the history of music? Or, more pertinently, do people remember when he also said there was a lot more to the story of Tammi's death than the public knew, but it would all come out?) Thirdly, Marvin had no reason to lie, but even if Marvin was telling the absolute, perfectly-remembered, cast-iron crystal-clear truth, Valerie already has an answer for that: Marvin, according to her, was simply remembering the guide vocals Valerie laid down. He didn't remember Tammi being there because, according to her, Tammi indeed wasn't there, she was brought in later, so of course Marvin doesn't remember watching Tammi record The Onion Song. Impossible to prove either way. Which brings us to the fourth big problem with Marvin's testimony versus Valerie's: Marvin isn't around to ask further questions.

In the game of "she said / he said", Valerie makes a far more persuasive witness than Marvin.

Tammi was really, really sick, such that it seems to stretch credibility she would head to the studio and sing. This is an interesting one, but as far as I understand it, and as far as the famous Ebony article linked upthread makes out, she had good days and bad days for the last three years of her life. By many accounts she at least visited Hitsville a few times in 1969 - and that Ebony article details her taking a long flight to get there - so it's not as though she was a bedridden invalid during the period the "Easy" vocal tracks were laid down. I've read she supposedly even appeared on stage in March 1969 at Seton Hall for a [[brief) interlude at a James Brown show - I'd love to know more about that. [[Is it in Ludie's book?)

The woman singing on "Easy" sounds different. I've dealt with this above, but there's still no denying there's a difference in voices. But I don't understand why some people are so quick to deny Tammi could possibly have been well enough to go to Studio A in 1969 [[despite first-hand accounts of her doing that) or even get up and move around [[despite photographic evidence to the contrary accompanying that Ebony piece), because so many bouts of brain surgery would render that impossible, but then fail to accept that same logic to explain why someone's voice might sound a bit different.

Nick Ashford's enigmatic "no comment" responses when directly asked. I've read that he supposedly admitted it was Valerie on those records all along, but I've never been able to actually pinpoint anything resembling such a quote - which would have been massive news, surely? Rather, he seems to have brushed off the question whenever it came up [[bearing in mind this only really started happening in the mid-80s following the publication of Divided Soul). This seems to have been construed as an admission of guilt, but it's clearly no such thing - it's easy to impute *any* motivation to someone's keeping silent, but none of them count for anything in the eyes of the law.

Valerie Simpson's testimony should be disregarded because she has a vested interest in keeping the lie going, in order to [[protect Tammi's legacy / keep to a contractual agreement / make Motown look better / DELETE AS APPROPRIATE). This one I've never really got. Motown were never known for their scrupulous contractual dealings. Plenty of tell-all "warts and all" books about the company's dark secrets have emerged in the last 20 years. In the 80s, Motown was beseiged by lawsuits from disgruntled former artists, songwriters and producers. I don't understand why we're meant to believe that Motown screwed over almost everyone they ever came into contact with in one way or another, but that they stuck loyally to some shady deal they struck with Valerie to keep quiet forever, and that Valerie was happy to go along with it, even after moving to Warners and Capitol. [[I certainly can't imagine the financial rewards from such a pact being enough to outweigh the royalties she'd be due for 40 years of airplay.) The only plausible reason she'd stick to a lie would be to protect Tammi, but I don't understand why that would be the case; nobody's denied the Andantes stood in for any number of other Motown acts, for instance, or continued to claim that it was really Martha Reeves and not Syreeta who sang on "I Can't Dance...". Why should Tammi have been treated any differently?


We'll never know for sure. I think the case for Tammi is much stronger than the case against, and ultimately if the only reliable source says it was Tammi, that's good enough for me. [[Similarly if Val had come out and said "Yeah, it was me all along, sorry everyone", that would convince me too - presumably it would have been taken more seriously here...?) It's also tempting to go with Terry Wilson's theory, that Val recorded the guide tracks, Tammi came in to record a few lines here and there, and Motown went with the best take from either vocalist. But ultimately, when there's only one remaining credible first-hand witness and her story is impossible to disprove [[or prove, short of some studio documentation and photographic evidence of Tammi recording the songs in question, and even then that wouldn't silence all doubts), there's absolutely no way for us to ever know for sure.

[kenneth]

Besides my own ears, which even as a 13 year old I wondered why she sounded so different and strange [[I remember thinking it was almost a Mae West impersonation, I found it so exaggerated), there are a few things not addressed in the above attorney's analysis. It's very difficult to believe that Tammi would have the stamina to record 10 new original recordings when even "You're All I Need" had to be put together with a great deal of Tammi solo recordings augmented by Marvin vocals to turn them into duets. That she could suddenly record a whole album with a little "tweaking" by Simpson...I just don't buy it, Counselor.

But as I've said repeatedly, it does nothing to diminish Valerie Simpson in my eyes. If anything, it elevates her further. I don't believe she's saying anything out of a contractual obligation. I believe it's to protect Tammi's legacy. Maybe I should shut up and do the same, but I have my ears to tell me it's just not the same girl.

[radionixon]

Rebuttal: "Suddenly" is a stretch nobody's making - the accounts, if we're to believe them, use words like "painstaking", "line by line", "laborious"... it's not as if anyone's claiming she suddenly leapt up from her sickbed. [[Not now, anyway - I don't know what the party line was in 1969.) "You're All I Need" made perfect sense - Motown had several hit Marvin & Tammi singles, needed a new LP, saw delays in Tammi being able to record new material, saw huge stack of unreleased or overlooked Tammi solo tracks [[some of them fantastic songs that would work perfectly as duets, even if they weren't originally conceived that way)... what's not to understand? [[This was Motown, remember - they'd have released an LP of Stevie Wonder's farts if they thought it would go gold.) There was no need in 1968 to drag Tammi through that drawn-out process, not while there were enough killer tracks in the can that could be hastily [[and beautifully!) repurposed. None of that says anything about how much recording Tammi did or was capable of doing in 1968 or 1969, however much we'd like to read into it.

As for the last sentence, there's no reason for anyone to "shut up", but your ears aren't calibrated the same as my ears or anyone else's ears, otherwise we'd all buy the same records [[hands up everyone else who thinks "Easy" sounds like "almost a Mae West impersonation"...? No, thought not.) We all hear slightly different things; what you and Ross Holloway hear as irrefutable proof it's Valerie, Ludie Montgomery hears as irrefutable proof it's Tammi, and I personally can't really tell enough of a difference to claim either way. If it is Valerie, she did a good enough impression to fool enough people that Marvin's "revelation" still seems to have been a major shock.

[kenneth]

Okay. You're not in Court. Rest your case.

[radionixon]

It's a discussion forum, isn't it?

[kenneth]

Well, your "legal analysis" is couched as if it's a discussion, but you quickly seem to want to get snarky, as in your "everyone raise their hands" comment. Do you think your being an attorney makes your opinion any more valid than anyone else's, Sir? In any event, I'm done with this "discussion."

[radionixon]

What the heck? No, I don't think that being a lawyer makes my opinion any more valid than anyone else's [[if you've ever seen my site, you'll know I bend over backwards to make sure everyone's voice is heard) - and the 'hands up' thing wasn't meant to be "snarky" at all, just an illustration of how we're all hearing different things, which is what makes the world go round. Sorry if it came across as rude, I thought your first reply was going to be the start of a long and friendly discussion [[you seemed to be writing in a sort of jokey tone), so I'm a little surprised by the turn this seems to have taken...?

[jobeterob]

The lawyer in me almost always comes down where Paul Nixon came down; there's the way the case would fall if we are being realistic as lawyers.

I have to say when I read the Ross Holloway style arguments, I'm nearly convinced.

So few of the legal cases against Motown were successful; basically most of the artists, producers, and writers never really signed on for a lot of money and spent everything they got......sadly, factually, there's never been much there to be successful with; I don't think that is popular but I believe it to be true.

[rovereab]

Where the song "You're All I Need" is concerned, would Marvin have said quietly at one point [[easy to hear on the stereo mix) "Tammi listen" if it was not Tammi? I say this as in older threads a contrast was drawn with the new songs on the Easy album where they do not sing their names as on the their first and second album together.

Perhaps they only sung each other's names when recording together and that when it came to the Easy sessions they recorded the songs separately.

[psychedelic jacques]

I haven't really followed this thread closely, but found radionixon's evaluation just what is needed - an objective, forensic weighing up of the evidence. More basically, it also referred to "the disputed tracks", and i'm not sure exactly which ones they are anymore, or indeed if there is a uniform consensus in the 'Valerie as singer' camp as to which they are. So, apologies if they were clearly listed upthread, but can someone just list for me exactly which tracks are considered the disputed ones?

thanks.

[RossHolloway]

WHO DARES DISPUTE MY WORD!!! BRING THEM TO ME!!!!

But seriously, I have a very difficult time believing that anyone who has played the Tammi Terrell's Anthology and knows the quality, texture and nuances of her voice and still claim that they can't tell the difference between the two voices and tracks in questions either aren't listening or need to get their hearing checked. Perhaps I've just listened to and have studied Tammi's voice more and can pick out the sutleties in her voice more and can recoginze the nuances and I know Valerie Simpson's voice and it's qualities and characteristics and once you know the difference then the tracks on Easy become quite obvious. It's like listening to an early Supreme's record where they are harmonizing, and still being able to pick out Diana's, Mary's and Florence's individual voices, even though they are mixed and blended in together...Either you know someone's voice or you don't...

And while I don't have as much spare time as Radionixon has to write a dissertation on the subject. I will take the time to point out some curious flaws in his "analysis". With respect to the quote attributed to Tammi's sister, I just wonder what type of answer we would get from her under cross-examination. I'm hesitant to give her quote any type of meaningful weight without knowing the exact question that was asked and I'd like to know her full quote and not the edited quote that Radionixon provided above. It's important to study things in context and not just a short snippet of perhaps a longer sentance or statement. Radio refers to the Ebony article and pulls quotes from there, but fails to mention the part where Tammi herself says that she has not recorded in a YEAR AND A HALF. I find it curious that he would just leave out that part of the story. Or maybe he thinks that Tammi is telling a lie as well.. Or maybe that bit of information just didn't fit in with his narrative.... Also if my memory serves me correctly, in Divided Soul doesn't Marvin Gaye also pull out the Easy album and play it for David Ritz and points out the exact songs that Valerie sings on. And doesn't Marvin also state that Motown convinced him to go along with Valerie singing so that Tammi would have an income to pay her medical bills? Why would Marvin say something of this nature that could have potential negative raminifactions for his own career? What motive would Marvin have for making that statment if it wasn't true? By all accounts Marvin had deep feelings for Tammi and cared for her very much. Why would he just make those statements, against his own self-interest and against Tammi's interest? Radionixon calls into question Marvin's veracity, but questions no one elses. Interesting...

He also states that Valerie doesn't have a motive for keeping the story alive. Well I'll give you two: money and Milli Vanilli. How much money has Valerie made from the Marvin and Tammi duets? Would the public stop buying not only the Easy album, if the public knew that it was not Tammi singing those songs, but would it also impact the sales of the United and the You're All I Need To Get By albums as well? Would it turn into a Milli Vanilli or Blackbox type situation, where those groups were quite popular and selling a ton of records..until it was exposed that the people we saw in the videos were not the actual singers, but rather studio singers doing the vocals. After that no one wanted to listen to their music, muchless buy their songs or albums. Nobody likes to be defrauded.

One other elephant sized detail that Radio glosses over is the fact that Tammi had SIX brain opertions at the time of the Ebony article. SIX BRAIN OPERATIONS!!! And I think either two or three more before she died. But Valerie, Motown and Radionixon want us all to believe that Tammi some how righted herself long enough to fly back and forth to Detroit to sing love songs, painstakingly and line by line? Right... Let me just say that I've never had brain surgery, so I don't know what the recovery period is like. But I can tell you that I've had plenty of head colds, and with them I've usually feeling like crap and out of commission for like a week at a time. Now I can only imagine what it would have been like to have brain surgery in the late 1960's and how long it would have kept me out of commission, or Tammi in this case, much less after SIX BRAIN SURGERIES. It just defies common sense. One useful bit of information, that we will probably never know, but would definitely shed light on the whole affair would be the exact date of Tammi's surgeries, and then match those dates up against the alleged recording dates. Morbid, I know, but I'm just saying what others refuse to write.

The last thing that I'd like to point out [[again) is that Motown had a track record of substituting singers on records. If Motown did it with the Supreme's, their top selling and most popular group, then why wouldn't they do it with Tammi Terrell, if they thought they could get away with it? And didn't they have Richard Street singing behind the curtains for Paul Wiliams during live concerts? I don't think this point can either be overlooked or glossed over.

Finally, I hope no one takes offense to anything that I've written in any of my posts, they are not meant to offend anyone. Do I question the listening abilities of some folks and their ability to reason to with facts and logic? Yes, indeed. lol. Now question me again and I'll send Dick and Liz Cheney over to your house to destroy your computer. [[and I'm not kidding!) You've all been warned!!

[radionixon]

:) Now, THAT'S what I'm talking about!

Some really good points.* There's definitely a case to be made for both sides of the argument - I hope I didn't come across as though I was trying to say "Ha, you're obviously wrong, and here's 10,000 words explaining why!" - that's not me.* I still do feel that one side of the argument stacks up more strongly than the other based on what we've got, but as I said a few times, I don't think we'll ever really know the truth.* There's no Judo Argument here, no one piece of evidence that anyone can point to and say "see, this PROVES it!", hence the ongoing discussion.

[[And it is a discussion - when I'm baldly stating my opinions, they're just that, opinions.* I don't have the desire or the ability to sh[[o)ut down a debate!)

In order to respond, I think it'll be illustrative to go back to that Ebony article, because I believe it goes towards a few of the points you raise.* In the prologue, the journalist [[not Tammi herself) does indeed state: "Tammi Terrell, bound for Detroit and her first recording date in nearly two years...", but this is referring to the airplane incident in the opening paragraphs, rather than when the article was written [[which was "approximately six months after her sixth and final operation", according to the text itself - given the article was published in November '69, you can come up with a few plausible ballpark dates for both the writing, and Tammi's surgeries).* The article <i>then</i> goes on to state: "Plagued by physical and emotional breakdowns, she has been in and out of the hospital at least four times in the past six months. Unable to accept night club or theater engagements, she has concentrated her efforts on <b>recording and song writing.</b>" [[my emphasis)

Now, admittedly this is flimsy evidence at best, but it's evidence nonetheless - evidence she was <i>trying</i> to do some recording even after her sixth surgery.* The Ebony article is most interesting to me because of the picture it paints of Tammi's health after her six operations; she was in pain, she didn't have full use of her arms and legs, but equally she wasn't completely incapacitated either.* I've never met anyone suffering from brain cancer, but I've read "cancer diaries" from the likes of Ivan Noble and Steven Wells, and they were as articulate and personable as ever literally right up until the end, so I don't think it's so very unlikely she was still trying to work at such a late stage.* I think it does terminal cancer sufferers in general a bit of a disservice to suggest Tammi's gravely serious condition flatly precluded any travel or studio work.

In terms of otherwise cherry-picking evidence, I'd like to underline that I'd question <em>everybody's</em> veracity on this one - I don't assume that Valerie's version is the right one, I just point out that as things stand, it's by far the most convincing.* The trouble is that Valerie's story [[which could easily have been invented after the fact - I don't have a date for the first time she gave her guide vocals/line-by-line explanation, not sure if anyone else does?) pre-emptively neutralises Marvin's story by giving a plausible explanation as to why Marvin may have remembered wrong [[i.e. he remembered Valerie doing guide vocals and got his memories mixed up), and Marvin isn't here to answer back.* All we can do is weigh up the evidence as it stands, which by nature favours Valerie.* I don't claim Marvin is lying [[he is my favourite Motown artist!), just that on the balance of probabilities, I believe he was remembering wrong.

The Milli Vanilli argument is a very good one, and something I hadn't really considered before.* The possibility of a confession causing sales to nosedive is pretty strong motivation, for sure.* Having said that, nobody's disputing it's Marvin Gaye on those records rather than, say, JJ Barnes, so it's not a perfect comparison.* Plus, the cat's been out of the bag on this particular conspiracy theory for a long time already [[genuine question: did Motown seek to stop Divided Soul going to print?), and UMG haven't exactly been careful about sticking to the party line.* The Gracenote CD database error above is clearly derived from the liner notes to <i>The Complete Duets</i> CD, an official release from 2001 - and, unless I'm mistaken, the only way to buy any of the three Marvin & Tammi albums in full these days? - whose liner notes state unambiguously that it's Valerie and not Tammi on the later recordings [[based on Marvin's "revelation" rather than any new insider knowledge).* The compilation continues to sell regardless - though I agree it's legitimate to wonder if that would have been the case had the cover stated "Marvin Gaye and Tammi Terrell and Valerie Simpson" in big letters instead.* Food for thought!

Ultimately, the evidence just isn't there to definitively support either argument, and so it'll come down to what people want to believe.* I appreciate you think the best evidence of all is what's on the records, but I still feel this is completely subjective - though I could be in a tiny minority on that one [[it wouldn't be the first time!).* I'd ask everyone reading this: ignoring the fact that the vocalist on Easy sounds a bit different to the "golden age" Tammi we know, was your first reaction on hearing that LP "They've replaced Tammi!"?* Did anyone identify Valerie Simpson's voice before Divided Soul?* Not trying to make a point, I'm genuinely curious.

Sorry, this turned out really long again, didn't it?

[radionixon]

Posting this from a train on my phone, no idea what's with all the asterisks!?

[jboy88]

Radio Nixon opened up on a lot of things that I too have acknowledged in my study! I read over his revelation in "Divided Soul" and saw That there wasn't alot of intimate details about Tammi. Plus, he stated that the "Easy" album was done to give Tammi's family more income, which doesn't add up since Mr. Gordy was already paying for the medical bills.

The fact that Ludie herself says that it's Tammi on the recordings carries alot of weight! as some might recall, some of Michael Jackson's recordings on the "Michael" album were also debated for authenticity. And several close family members spoke out and said it wasn't him! Even his son Prince, who was there when they were recorded, said that only some lines were used but the rest wasn't him!

The bottomline though is that no matter how much evidence is presented, I think a lot of fans [[i'm not naming names) are keep finding more ways to scrape off Tammi from the "Easy" album. And I can understand why. It's good music, but it just doesn't move us the way it did when Tammi had her full stamina. Plus, it's not easy to imagine her working through all she had to deal with. That's personally how I felt for some time after i accepted Valerie's story. But at the same time, it makes me happy to know that Tammi was making the most of the little time she had left on this earth! And it only makes me appreciate her that much more.

[144man]

I bought "Easy" when it first came out, and it didn't even cross my mind that it might not be Tammi singing, and I don't remember anyone else questioning it at the time. Did we all have cloth ears?

[ejluther]

This thread is very interesting and a good read all around. Having just rewatched the UNSUNG episode on Tammi [[what a great series that is), I'm just sad her life and singing ended so early. The section where they talk about Marvin and her singing together for the last time [[he from the stage and her from the audience) is just heartbreaking. As for who's actually singing on the disputed tracks, all I know is that to my ears the voice simply does not sound like the same Tammi as before, even if it is coming from the same woman. Knowing how sick she was for so much of her short life only makes her talent and star quality all the more wondrous...

[midnight johnny]

....The fact that Ludie herself says that it's Tammi on the recordings carries alot of weight! as some might recall, some of Michael Jackson's recordings on the "Michael" album were also debated for authenticity. And several close family members spoke out and said it wasn't him! Even his son Prince, who was there when they were recorded, said that only some lines were used but the rest wasn't him!

The bottomline though is that no matter how much evidence is presented, I think a lot of fans [[i'm not naming names) are keep finding more ways to scrape off Tammi from the "Easy" album. And I can understand why. It's good music, but it just doesn't move us the way it did when Tammi had her full stamina. Plus, it's not easy to imagine her working through all she had to deal with. That personally how I felt for some time after i accepted Valerie's story. But at the same time, it make me happy to know that Tammi was making the most of the little time she had left on this earth! And it only makes me appreciate her that much more.

"Scrape Off"? I'm not even sure what your point with that comment is. That Ludie insists that it is Tammi on "Easy"...
and she insisted during my interview with her on the show, carries no weight whatsoever. Ludie wasn't present during the recordings, and I would say has a bit of a vested interest in helping to maintain the legend. It's still laughable to me that the evidence is on the album "Easy" itself. If one would merely listen to the tracks "in question" and the ones that Marvin was engineered onto and listen to the difference in the female voices.

[midnight johnny]

I bought "Easy" when it first came out, and it didn't even cross my mind that it might not be Tammi singing, and I don't remember anyone else questioning it at the time. Did we all have cloth ears?

When I first got "Easy" [[ I don't mean that literally [[*smile), I could hear something was clearly different, although, at the time, I wrote it off as Tammi's voice changing related to her illness.

[thisoldheart]

i don't quite get the line of reasoning that people have who express worries about tammi terrell's legacy. so she didn't sing on the single "good loving at easy" and most of the "easy" album ... does that ruin her career? no! of course not. who here doesn't think that had she been in good health tammi wouldn't have nailed the "easy" sessions? i have never read a bad word about tammi's voice or spunky stage persona. healthy, she was a little dynamo and one of the few new rising stars at motown. there is no reason to be protective of her. her legacy was made long before the "easy" fiasco [[of which she would have been the only innocent party because of the state of her fragile health.) motown's actions only put the company in a bad light ... but then the company was running as many record companies ran then. the person i have the most questions about are the real intentions of valerie simpson.

i waiver between trying to understand how valerie would write, produce, and sing on the "easy" album. was she was overly interested in furthering her carreer with her biggest act at that time? or did the whole messy situation just roll out of her control? once valerie was in deep it makes sense that she cover her actions with a stories that never actually say, "i never sang under tammi terrell's name".

remember, valerie was a formidable and forceful presence in the studio. she wasn't fooling around at motown, and it isn't surprising with the exit of holland,dozier,&holland and the split of the supremes that she ended up with barry gordy's ticket to hollywood, diana ross! i always read carefully between the lines of everything simpson says about the gaye/terrell "easy" sessions. she always seem too suspiciously coy to me. it is almost as if she knows it is in her best interest to say she didn't do tammi's parts, but yet valerie wants some recognition for what is probably one of the more cohesive albums of its time at motown [[minus, of course, the two songs that are from older tammi sessions and feel out of place on "easy"). valerie does deserve credit for this album. it is good. valerie's voice is great, and a careful reading of what terrell might have done had she been healthy enough to sing. too bad that the album was produced under such difficult, stressful and secretive conditions. the "easy" sessions turned out to be anything but!

everyone was driven at motown, some more than others. simpson certainly was. ms. terrell, in this last year of her life, had more compelling concerns.

[jboy88]

I only say scrape off because whenever this topic comes up, I read a bunch of theories as to why Valerie Simpson doesn't admit to doing all the vocals. It's all a case of one-sided selective exposure. Rather than say I think Val sings this but it could be Tammi, it's "Val's under contract or some other type of claim!

[midnight johnny]

I think it's natural to speculate and to wonder why she wouldn't speak the truth, when it is so very clear that it not only isn't Tammi but IS Valerie.

[RossHolloway]

I still stand by all my previous statements. In fact after re-reading the statements by Johnny Bristol and Valerie Simpson herself, I'm even more convinced that it's Valerie's voice. Can someone define what a "rich tapestry" is exactly?

[thisoldheart]

it means simpson stitched her voice over tammi's ... if, in fact, tammi was in any shape to sing a single note!

[Kamasu_Jr]

I think Valerie has incentives [[$) to not say that its her on those songs. Listen to the album in question and songs and questions and they are not the same singers. Marvin Gaye, before he died, stated that it was Valerie Simpson on those songs. What motive would Marvin Gaye have for making that statement? If Motown could replace Mary and Florence on recordings for years and have no one the wiser, then why wouldn't they replace an ailing Tammi Terrell?

I agree. What reason would Marvin Gaye have had to lie? He was in a confessional mood at the time he was interviewed by David Ritz. I believe he was free from Motown and wanted to set the record straight. I'm not sure what Motown and Valerie Simpson's motives or incentives were in replacing Tammi Terrell and denying that Valerie sang on those records. Maybe they meant well and are protecting Tammi's legacy. But it's Valerie Simpson on many of those duets, no punching in or tweaking was involved. You can't fool my ears.

[midnightman]

Dag, I missed this discussion but I have to say, someone would have to have been REALLY STRONG to, after going through six brain operations, somehow manage to come to Detroit and sing at a recording studio. At this point, I don't think saying it's Valerie singing on those records would hurt Tammi's reputation at all. If anything, it actually strengthens it.

[RossHolloway]

Dag, I missed this discussion but I have to say, someone would have to have been REALLY STRONG to, after going through six brain operations, somehow manage to come to Detroit and sing at a recording studio. At this point, I don't think saying it's Valerie singing on those records would hurt Tammi's reputation at all. If anything, it actually strengthens it.

I think there were 9 surgeries in total for Tammi.

[Jimi LaLumia]

Motown wanted to protect it's own mythology..
they also told us all those 1960's Diana Ross records were by The Supremes [[Love Child, Someday We'll Be Together, The Composer, No Matter What Sign You Are, etc..)

[kenneth]

I bought "Easy" when it first came out, and it didn't even cross my mind that it might not be Tammi singing, and I don't remember anyone else questioning it at the time. Did we all have cloth ears?

I definitely thought she sounded different. I think I was 12 at the time. To me, the voice had an exaggerated forced quality, almost like a Mae West impersonation. Of course, being 12 and unfamiliar with what shenanigans could be going on, you're right, it never crossed my mind that it might not be Tammi singing. But of course I was still years away from even ever hearing about the Andantes!

And even back then it was obvious to me that on a couple tracks they were just Tammi solo vocals with Marvin's voice added.

Midnight Johnny is right, a good listen to the LP is quite revealing.

[luke]

Great input radionixon. I dont understand why some dismiss Valerie as perpetuating falsehoods. It clearly wouldnt hurt her to say it was her if that was the truth.

[franjoy56]

Great input radionixon. I dont understand why some dismiss Valerie as perpetuating falsehoods. It clearly wouldnt hurt her to say it was her if that was the truth.

I say give Tammi her props, and give her the mike in her last days as it was previously stated I hear her on all the hits:

Your All I Need to get by, Ain't No Mountain HIgh Enough,
Ain't Nothing Like the Real Thing, Your Precious Love, If I Could Build My Whole World Around You, And with that said Marvin and Tammi Terrell were the greatest Pop Soul Duo that has not been touched since.

[LuvHangOva]

I was flabbergasted when I listened very carefully to You're All I Need To Get By yesterday and realized that it's Valerie Simpson's voice!!! It's not my favorite "Marvin/Tammi" record ... that would be "Your Precious Love", so I hadn't listened closely or sung along with YAINTGB very often. It was immediately apparent to me hat instead of Tammi's high, thin, reedy [[but infinitely charismatic) voice it was the richer, more colorful, gospel inflected [[but less charismatic, less unique) voice of Miss Simpson.

I'm sorry, but I don't buy this charade. The texture of the two voices is not the same. Neither is the diction. Tammi had a very strong [[or "strawng") southern twang in her delivery that is missing in Valerie's imitation. Check out Tammi's twang on the word "enough" in "Ain't No Mountain High Enu-u-uff" for example. That along with the fact that Val's voice is smoother, more nuanced and controlled than the thin, high, reedy and to me, much more captivating and interesting voice of Tammi Terrell was all the proof I needed when I listened. There is more "depth" to Val's voice but I prefer Tammi's. I just let my ears tell me.

[SatansBlues]

What a great discussion.

[jboy88]

I remember this thread occurred while I was taking Mass Comm 101 in college. There I learned the concept of Selective Exposure, where a person only takes in information that aligns with their own opinions or beliefs. I say this discussion, more often than not, fit the definition to a T. Several well thought out and written posts are met with disdain and criticism, while post like “ears don’t lie” are met with high regard.

[SatansBlues]

I remember this thread occurred while I was taking Mass Comm 101 in college. There I learned the concept of Selective Exposure, where a person only takes in information that aligns with their own opinions or beliefs. I say this discussion, more often than not, fit the definition to a T. Several well thought out and written posts are met with disdain and criticism, while post like “ears don’t lie” are met with high regard.

And some posts are the equivalent of republican climate deniers...

[jobeterob]

So many old timers gone - some so connected with Motown - sad, such a shame

[Ollie9]

Motown wanted to protect it's own mythology..
they also told us all those 1960's Diana Ross records were by The Supremes [[Love Child, Someday We'll Be Together, The Composer, No Matter What Sign You Are, etc..)

I truly believe it’s as simple as that Jimi and the fact Valerie was under contract to Motown.
I still love the album be it TT or VS singing. My ears tell me it’s Valerie Simpson on the majority of those “Easy” tracks doing an extremely good impression. Either way it’s still a superb album. :)

[thanxal]

So many old timers gone - some so connected with Motown - sad, such a shame
It is so sad. I remember lurking for at least two years before joining and reading with delight so many different people who had a variety of insights who were directly in the know.

I wonder what could have driven them away?

[paul_nixon]

It is so sad. I remember lurking for at least two years before joining and reading with delight so many different people who had a variety of insights who were directly in the know.

I wonder what could have driven them away?

I think you just gotta use your ears and your intelligence and in the long run what does it matter they were and still are great records

[midnightman]

I was flabbergasted when I listened very carefully to You're All I Need To Get By yesterday and realized that it's Valerie Simpson's voice!!! It's not my favorite "Marvin/Tammi" record ... that would be "Your Precious Love", so I hadn't listened closely or sung along with YAINTGB very often. It was immediately apparent to me hat instead of Tammi's high, thin, reedy [[but infinitely charismatic) voice it was the richer, more colorful, gospel inflected [[but less charismatic, less unique) voice of Miss Simpson.

I'm sorry, but I don't buy this charade. The texture of the two voices is not the same. Neither is the diction. Tammi had a very strong [[or "strawng") southern twang in her delivery that is missing in Valerie's imitation. Check out Tammi's twang on the word "enough" in "Ain't No Mountain High Enu-u-uff" for example. That along with the fact that Val's voice is smoother, more nuanced and controlled than the thin, high, reedy and to me, much more captivating and interesting voice of Tammi Terrell was all the proof I needed when I listened. There is more "depth" to Val's voice but I prefer Tammi's. I just let my ears tell me.

Marvin never said that was Valerie on YAINTGB though...

[TammiTerrellFan]

My 1st M&T was their greatest hits, even then I knew there was a difference in the female voice on some of the tracks..But after doing some research.on Tammi I just thought it was because of her declining health. If Tammi only was able to sing a line or 2 at a time, as Valerie has said did happen, then of course it would effect the sound of the performance..in some instances on You're All I Need, I hear the Easy Tammi voice on the title track! But there are parts on YAINTGB where MG says Tammi's name. Pretty confusing to me

[SatansBlues]

Here's another interesting piece to the puzzle. It's another solo track that Tammi did in May 1966 where Marvin Gaye's vocals are added way after the fact. DFTM indicates that this manufactured duet was completed in March 1968. Anyone else find it interesting that this track was done so early in 1968, even before the true nature of Tammi's illness was unknown?


https://youtu.be/Hulm3szuMB0

[reese]

Here's another interesting piece to the puzzle. It's another solo track that Tammi did in May 1966 where Marvin Gaye's vocals are added way after the fact. DFTM indicates that this manufactured duet was completed in March 1968. Anyone else find it interesting that this track was done so early in 1968, even before the true nature of Tammi's illness was unknown?


https://youtu.be/Hulm3szuMB0

Quite a few of the Marvin and Tammi duets on the UNITED and YOU'RE ALL I NEED albums were originally Tammi solos that Marvin later added his vocals to. So that started even before Tammi's collapse on stage in 1967.

Not sure of the timeline but by early 1968, Tammi may have already been operated on at least once. Her illness is referenced in the liner notes to the YOU'RE ALL I NEED album, which was released in August 1968. So by that point, there might have been more of a need for Marvin to overdub on Tammi's older recordings.

[mysterysinger]

On YAINTGB it's a mixture of Tammi and Valerie. That's the blend of voices that Valerie referred to once. Tammi sings some lines, Valerie others [[where more power is needed). I found that hard to believe at first but seems obvious now.

[SatansBlues]

On YAINTGB it's a mixture of Tammi and Valerie. That's the blend of voices that Valerie referred to once. Tammi sings some lines, Valerie others [[where more power is needed). I found that hard to believe at first but seems obvious now.
I think on YAINTGB that it's actually more Valerie than it is Tammi. I use to think that it was Tammi singing at the very beginning of the song and that Valerie came in around the 43-second mark and sang the rest of the song. But after re-listening to the first 90 seconds of the track several times in a row, I'm now beginning to think that it's actually Valerie singing very low and soft in her Tammi voice and Tammi's not on the record at all.

[jboy88]

I think on YAINTGB that it's actually more Valerie than it is Tammi. I use to think that it was Tammi singing at the very beginning of the song and that Valerie came in around the 43-second mark and sang the rest of the song. But after re-listening to the first 90 seconds of the track several times in a row, I'm now beginning to think that it's actually Valerie singing very low and soft in her Tammi voice and Tammi's not on the record at all.
This is what I meant 9 years ago when I said people are trying to “Scrape off Tammi”. Marvin himself never claimed Valerie sang on YAINTGB yet some people still insist otherwise.

[SatansBlues]

I don’t think Marvin Gaye ever specified what tracks Valerie stepped in for Tammi. I don’t think anyone is trying to erase Tammi from songs, we’re having a discussion and people are just discussing the facts and music.

It’s my understanding that there are other unreleased tapes of Tammi attempting to sing. An individual who heard those tapes described Tammi’s voice as being frail and was convinced that it is indeed Valerie on the songs in question.

[reese]

I don’t think Marvin Gaye ever specified what tracks Valerie stepped in for Tammi. I don’t think anyone is trying to erase Tammi from songs, we’re having a discussion and people are just discussing the facts and music.

It’s my understanding that there are other unreleased tapes of Tammi attempting to sing. An individual who heard those tapes described Tammi’s voice as being frail and was convinced that it is indeed Valerie on the songs in question.

In DIVIDED SOUL, Marvin specifically mentioned the EASY album as an example of Valerie subbing for Tammi.

Another Marvin bio subsequently published by MOJO Books [[I believe) brought up the question of whether Valerie subbed on the single YOU'RE ALL I NEED TO GET BY as well. But Marvin didn't mention that one.

[TammiTerrellFan]

I went to the site DFTMC and looked the M&T Easy tracks up. Ludie Montgomery says Tammi had her 8th brain surgery in January 1970. So Tammi had possibly had 6 surgeries by the time Tammi recorded her vocals for that album. Can't really see her being able to go into a recording studio and take hours to record any vocals. Unless ?

[captainjames]

Interesting topic to revisit again; I think Valerie worked with Marvin on the songs and that is why Marvin said what he did. I think Tammi was brought in the studio later and Valerie's tapes or dubs were used to help Tammi through the songs so it look they [[Marvin and Tammie were in the studio at the same time). Valerie and Nick used Tammie words line by line or word by word similar to what was done with Touch Me in the Morning. What you get is sometime just Val. There is probably only one person alive today that knows this.

[blackguy69]

I’m sorry but comparing the 3 songs that Tammi did sing compared to the rest and it sounds very different.

Interesting topic to revisit again; I think Valerie worked with Marvin on the songs and that is why Marvin said what he did. I think Tammi was brought in the studio later and Valerie's tapes or dubs were used to help Tammi through the songs so it look they [[Marvin and Tammie were in the studio at the same time). Valerie and Nick used Tammie words line by line or word by word similar to what was done with Touch Me in the Morning. What you get is sometime just Val. There is probably only one person alive today that knows this.

[midnightman]

That was not Valerie on You're All I Need to Get By. I'll go to the afterlife believing that.

You know what I think now? David Ritz misconstrued Marvin's words about the "Easy" sessions. Marvin probably did tell him what songs Tammi sung on "Easy". It's also probable Tammi and Valerie shared vocals on a couple of songs. But I can tell Tammi was on a good chunk of "Easy" [["Good Lovin' Ain't Easy..." is definitely Tammi).

We can probably settle the dispute here by putting in the dates of WHEN Tammi had surgery on her brain.

I think the first surgery was January 1968? The last one [[this one to just ease the pain as Tammi was clearly dying) was January 1970. So what happened in between these dates? And then we can go over "Easy" session dates and see if it makes sense. Obviously, she was there when N&V and Marvin worked on the album.

[TammiTerrellFan]

Val is the only one of the 4 major players still alive so I'm starting to believe that she brought Tammi in and got what she could from her. It's still a good album.

[SatansBlues]

That was not Valerie on You're All I Need to Get By. I'll go to the afterlife believing that.

You know what I think now? David Ritz misconstrued Marvin's words about the "Easy" sessions. Marvin probably did tell him what songs Tammi sung on "Easy". It's also probable Tammi and Valerie shared vocals on a couple of songs. But I can tell Tammi was on a good chunk of "Easy" [["Good Lovin' Ain't Easy..." is definitely Tammi).

We can probably settle the dispute here by putting in the dates of WHEN Tammi had surgery on her brain.

I think the first surgery was January 1968? The last one [[this one to just ease the pain as Tammi was clearly dying) was January 1970. So what happened in between these dates? And then we can go over "Easy" session dates and see if it makes sense. Obviously, she was there when N&V and Marvin worked on the album.
Good Lovin Ain't Easy, to my ears, is definitely Valerie Simpson. The track was finished in November 1968. Tammi herself is quoted in a magazine article published in November of '69, as saying that she had not been to Detroit to record in a year in a half. Aren't all of the tracks in question all produced by Ashford & Simpson? Things that make you go hmmmmm.

[SatansBlues]

Val is the only one of the 4 major players still alive so I'm starting to believe that she brought Tammi in and got what she could from her. It's still a good album.

Has Berry Gordy ever been asked the question? He would have had to sign off on using Valerie on the recordings in question?

[rovereab]

For me, a key reason to think it's Tammi on YAINTGB is that Marvin mentions her name, "Tammi listen". I don't think that he would have mentioned her name on a song where Valerie is singing or where he is duetising a solo recorded Tammi song.

[paul_nixon]

For me, a key reason to think it's Tammi on YAINTGB is that Marvin mentions her name, "Tammi listen". I don't think that he would have mentioned her name on a song where Valerie is singing or where he is duetising a solo recorded Tammi song.

Maybe he recorded his part first as he often did expecting Tammi to fill in around his vocals later....just a thought

[rovereab]

Maybe he recorded his part first as he often did expecting Tammi to fill in around his vocals later....just a thought

Are you aware of other songs recorded in that sequence Paul where he mentions Tammi's name?

[paul_nixon]

Are you aware of other songs recorded in that sequence Paul where he mentions Tammi's name?

No but the vocals were possibly recorded separately who knows and does it matter now all these years later?

[reachoutuk]

I've been following this thread for a while, and there is nothing of note that I can add to the debate, plus my lack of knowledge and the inability of my ears to note subtle changes would clearly prevent me. This is my own personal view and is not meant to try to influence or disagree with anyone else. Over the past few days I have listened to the CD twofer "United / You're All I Need" issued in the UK, the double CD "The Complete Duets", plus "Come On And See Me".

Probably you are all correct in various ways, and I understand to get to the truth and the final answer would be very satisfying. However, for what it's worth, in my fantasy world I would like to think that Tammi gave all she could, the Motown "family" came together and used whatever they could and Valerie filled in wherever and whenever necessary to complete the project and provide a final and lasting tribute and memorial to Tammi.

In no way am I saying that I am right, but for me some mysteries are never meant to be solved but we are all free to come to our own independent conclusions. I will continue to follow this thread and perhaps one day the full facts will appear, but in the meantime I am happy to have and listen to "Easy" based on my own, perhaps inadequate, understanding.

Please accept that I don't intend to step on anybody elses toes or views.

[SatansBlues]

Maybe he recorded his part first as he often did expecting Tammi to fill in around his vocals later....just a thought
Paul have you heard ALL of Tammi's recordings?

[SatansBlues]

I've been following this thread for a while, and there is nothing of note that I can add to the debate, plus my lack of knowledge and the inability of my ears to note subtle changes would clearly prevent me. This is my own personal view and is not meant to try to influence or disagree with anyone else. Over the past few days I have listened to the CD twofer "United / You're All I Need" issued in the UK, the double CD "The Complete Duets", plus "Come On And See Me".

Probably you are all correct in various ways, and I understand to get to the truth and the final answer would be very satisfying. However, for what it's worth, in my fantasy world I would like to think that Tammi gave all she could, the Motown "family" came together and used whatever they could and Valerie filled in wherever and whenever necessary to complete the project and provide a final and lasting tribute and memorial to Tammi.

In no way am I saying that I am right, but for me some mysteries are never meant to be solved but we are all free to come to our own independent conclusions. I will continue to follow this thread and perhaps one day the full facts will appear, but in the meantime I am happy to have and listen to "Easy" based on my own, perhaps inadequate, understanding.

Please accept that I don't intend to step on anybody elses toes or views.
You do not need to apologize for voicing your opinion. There's an interesting "note" in DFTMC for the song I'm Your Puppet, a song on the Easy album. Thoughts?

[TammiTerrellFan]

Wow it does say Valerie under female vocal

[reachoutuk]

You do not need to apologize for voicing your opinion. There's an interesting "note" in DFTMC for the song I'm Your Puppet, a song on the Easy album. Thoughts?

Thank you for this information. I've checked all the other entries from "Easy" on DFTMC and it seems that "I'm Your Puppet" is the only track where Valerie is mentioned.

I'm relatively new to Valerie's songs apart from those which appeared on the later Complete Motown Singles and a couple of tracks on MU 1967 and 1969 [[plus "The Key To The Kingdom"). It wasn't until I saw on the COM5 thread which was issued on the Caroline label, that there were the two albums on one CD by Valerie also on Caroline. I've only had it a couple of weeks but perhaps over time, if I listen particularly to "Exposed" I will get to know her voice better.

You asked me for my thoughts! Well, I listened To "I'm Your Puppet" followed by "More, More, More". In the latter Marvin sings Tammi's name, so assuming that it is Tammi singing, then I tried to draw a comparison. I felt that Valerie's voice was slightly smoother but I preferred Tammi's voice which I thought had a slightly rougher throatier edge to it. That may well put me in a minority of one as far as that description is concerned, but I'm still learning! Thank you for steering me in this direction.

[jboy88]

It should be noted that only “I’m Your Puppet” has the VS note. The rest of the “Easy” tracks don’t have that. It’s possible, emphasis on possible, that Val only sang for Tammi just for that one song and that may managed to get at least a couple of lines from Tammi on the others. If you listen to the mono version of “Satistfied Feelin’”, you hear two female voices from the second verse on. I believe one is Tammi and the other is Valerie in her natural voice singing in tandem to help smooth things out.

[jboy88]

Thank you for this information. I've checked all the other entries from "Easy" on DFTMC and it seems that "I'm Your Puppet" is the only track where Valerie is mentioned.

I'm relatively new to Valerie's songs apart from those which appeared on the later Complete Motown Singles and a couple of tracks on MU 1967 and 1969 [[plus "The Key To The Kingdom"). It wasn't until I saw on the COM5 thread which was issued on the Caroline label, that there were the two albums on one CD by Valerie also on Caroline. I've only had it a couple of weeks but perhaps over time, if I listen particularly to "Exposed" I will get to know her voice better.

You asked me for my thoughts! Well, I listened To "I'm Your Puppet" followed by "More, More, More". In the latter Marvin sings Tammi's name, so assuming that it is Tammi singing, then I tried to draw a comparison. I felt that Valerie's voice was slightly smoother but I preferred Tammi's voice which I thought had a slightly rougher throatier edge to it. That may well put me in a minority of one as far as that description is concerned, but I'm still learning! Thank you for steering me in this direction.

More, More,More is definitely Tammi! It was initially a solo recording but Marvin was dubbed in to make it a duet. Even though they were cut years apart, it has the same energy as the tracks that are genuine duets.

[rovereab]

With all of this debate, I need to remind myself that Tammi was reportedly taken to Motown's recording studios in a wheelchair to record YAINTGB. That determination prevailed even later when she was reported being seen on a bus heading to the studios for, presumable recordings for Easy.

The strength and determination of this young, hugely talented and beautiful singer is staggering. It's not surprising she might have needed a little help from Val, especially if the reports are true of her suffering from aspects of paralysis.

Despite all of this, we are left with some of the best duets ever recorded by two artists who deserved so much better in their lives.

For me, YAINTGB is the pinnacle of their achievement and I am sure the song will be played by many generations to come.

What a tragic loss to us all.

[SatansBlues]

Thank you for this information. I've checked all the other entries from "Easy" on DFTMC and it seems that "I'm Your Puppet" is the only track where Valerie is mentioned.

I'm relatively new to Valerie's songs apart from those which appeared on the later Complete Motown Singles and a couple of tracks on MU 1967 and 1969 [[plus "The Key To The Kingdom"). It wasn't until I saw on the COM5 thread which was issued on the Caroline label, that there were the two albums on one CD by Valerie also on Caroline. I've only had it a couple of weeks but perhaps over time, if I listen particularly to "Exposed" I will get to know her voice better.

You asked me for my thoughts! Well, I listened To "I'm Your Puppet" followed by "More, More, More". In the latter Marvin sings Tammi's name, so assuming that it is Tammi singing, then I tried to draw a comparison. I felt that Valerie's voice was slightly smoother but I preferred Tammi's voice which I thought had a slightly rougher throatier edge to it. That may well put me in a minority of one as far as that description is concerned, but I'm still learning! Thank you for steering me in this direction.
I always thought that it was interesting that most, if not all, of the songs on Easy were "completed" on the same day. And if I'm not mistaken all of the songs that are not former TT solo recordings are also produced by A&S.

[SatansBlues]

It should be noted that only “I’m Your Puppet” has the VS note. The rest of the “Easy” tracks don’t have that. It’s possible that Val only sang for Tammi just for that one song and that may managed to get at least a couple of lines from Tammi on the others. If you listen to the mono version of “Satistfied Feelin’”, you hear two female voices from the second verse on. I believe one is Tammi and the other is Valerie in her natural voice singing in tandem to help smooth things out.
So stated another way, VS was capable of singing and sounding exactly like Tammi, to the point where she could have done the same on other Marvin and Tammi recordings?

[jboy88]

So stated another way, VS was capable of singing and sounding exactly like Tammi, to the point where she could have done the same on other Marvin and Tammi recordings?
I said it was possible, not a concrete fact. Just like it’s possible that people who have access to the tracks can’t agree on who’s vocals they are either. Most of the liner notes on more recent sets leave it to the listener to decide.

[jobeterob]

I think it was long ago concluded that Valerie Simpson is on some or many or a lot of the Gaye/Terrell songs.

Just as it was unthinkable for years that Andantes and a dozen other background singers took the place of or augmented Mary Cindy and Florence, the same happened with Terrell and Simpson.

As the years go by, it means little to me; the songs are still the songs as they always were.

One of the Motown executives told me 10 years or so ago that it is best not to ask too many questions about these issues unless you are prepared for answers you might not want to hear.

[midnightman]

Maybe he recorded his part first as he often did expecting Tammi to fill in around his vocals later....just a thought

According to Valerie and Nick, Marvin & Tammi recorded the song in the studio LIVE so no.

[midnightman]

It should be noted that only “I’m Your Puppet” has the VS note. The rest of the “Easy” tracks don’t have that. It’s possible, emphasis on possible, that Val only sang for Tammi just for that one song and that may managed to get at least a couple of lines from Tammi on the others. If you listen to the mono version of “Satistfied Feelin’”, you hear two female voices from the second verse on. I believe one is Tammi and the other is Valerie in her natural voice singing in tandem to help smooth things out.

That's quite plausible. Tammi and Valerie have distinctive vocals that make them different. In most of "Easy", I hear Tammi mostly. I could say VS may have been on TWO songs. Maybe.

[paul_nixon]

According to Valerie and Nick, Marvin & Tammi recorded the song in the studio LIVE so no.

the question is now answered and put to bed - so the thread should be closed

[SatansBlues]

That's quite plausible. Tammi and Valerie have distinctive vocals that make them different. In most of "Easy", I hear Tammi mostly. I could say VS may have been on TWO songs. Maybe.

What two songs do you think that Valerie S. may be singing on?