The Supremes with Marlene Barrow!

[marv2]

For those of you interested, here is a rare picture of Marlene Barrow of the Andantes performing with Mary Wilson and Diana Ross as the Supremes! Ok, all at once..... Oooooh, Aaaaaahh!!!! LOL!!!:

[reese]

This is a nice shot. Looks like Jack Ashford alongside as well. Looking at the dresses, it would place this performance much earlier than I would have expected. But I guess that's shouldn't be too surprising.

[skooldem1]

Talk about rare...that is RARE. Great find Marv.

[marv2]

Talk about rare...that is RARE. Great find Marv.

It is one of my favorite shots now.

[johnjeb]

WOW! Thanks for posting, marv.

[marv2]

WOW! Thanks for posting, marv.

You are welcome! This is what this forum is for!

[Jimi LaLumia]

fabulous!!

[blueskies]

Wow....loved Mary's look then....esp. the big hair...how cool was that! Is Marlene Barrow still with us and what does she look like now?

[ajk93]

Nice One Marv!

[juicefree20]

I don't remember ever seeing this one before. I wonder if Jack has this one. I didn't think that there were too many pictures left that most fans hadn't seen. Very, very retro, all that's missing are a couple of naugahyde couches!

Good catch Marv!

[marv2]

I don't remember ever seeing this one before. I wonder if Jack has this one. I didn't think that there were too many pictures left that most fans hadn't seen. Very, very retro, all that's missing are a couple of naugahyde couches!

Good catch Marv!

Juice, you know where a lot of these came from? When they demolished the old Donovan Building in Detroit which was Motowns "second home", they just left piles of old files, pictures, album jackets, memos, cancelled checks etc,etc lying in the rubble. Some ahead thinking individuals went and combed through that "garbage" and collected alot of great memoribilia[[sp?)! I noticed the same thing when they demolished my old Elementary School in Nov. '06. Lots of text books, desk, furniture were just left in the pile of rubble.

[TMSG]

Great picture, When was this taken and, pardon my ignorance, but why is Marlene Barrow in the line up.

[randy_russi]

I don't know the location, but Marlene substituted for Florence as she was very sick with the flu, or so it was said.

[motony]

I think that was a private party in Detroit.I remember something about this on the forum before.

[bradsupremes]

Marlene Barrow subbed for Flo in early 1966 when Florence was sick. I don't think Berry believed she was sick so Marlene was sent out. This picture is most likely from the first time Marlene subbed for Florence when they performed for a private party at a country club in Detroit. After that, I believe Diana, Mary and Marlene did a series of one nighters and an engagement at Blinstrub's in Boston. Berry was going to keep Marlene on for the Copa engagement to teach Florence a lesson, but Jules Podell was adamant that Florence be there.

Marlene also subbed for Florence in several recording sessions and then on tour again in early 1967 when the troubles with Florence got really serious.

[ejluther]

Marlene Barrow subbed for Flo in early 1966 when Florence was sick. I don't think Berry believed she was sick so Marlene was sent out.
Because if he had believed Flo was really sick they would have canceled the show? And sending Marlene out was a message of sorts to Flo about being replaceable [[not to mention a message to just about everyone else at Motown about being replaceable)? No matter what else happened, it's pretty clear Flo was having a hard time keeping up with the pace of The Supremes. It was pretty staggering how much and how hard those ladies worked back in the day...

[randy_russi]

Sick or not, they would never cancel the show. Too much money was being made! A group can go on where a solo artist
can't if they're really sick.

[skooldem1]

Seems as if she was always a problem, I am suprised she lasted as long as she did.

[REDHOT]

Yes,Thanks Marv2,now i know,we[[supremes fans) haven't seen everything.
Please stay positive

[marv2]

Yes,Thanks Marv2,now i know,we[[supremes fans) haven't seen everything.
Please stay positive

You're welcome! This is further proof of what Mary Wilson said in her book was true!

[nabob]

Because if he had believed Flo was really sick they would have canceled the show? And sending Marlene out was a message of sorts to Flo about being replaceable [[not to mention a message to just about everyone else at Motown about being replaceable)? No matter what else happened, it's pretty clear Flo was having a hard time keeping up with the pace of The Supremes. It was pretty staggering how much and how hard those ladies worked back in the day...Remember that these "girls" were only 20 years old when fame landed in their laps. They have to be commended for handling it as well as they did - even Flo. How many of us could have been troopers for three hectic years at that age?

[jobeterob]

All of these posts kind of "tee up" with Marlene doing the background vocals with Mary Wilson on You Can't Hurry Love ~ which Marlene insists were her in the book Vickie wrote. Maybe. Or maybe it's a mix of heaven knows who.

[juicefree20]

Marv,

I can't believe that they would've left such history lying around for the garbage.

It's one thing to read how boxes of records at Chess were boxed up & trashed, but they had went through bankruptcy & there was no attachment, nor concern about what was being done away with.

But MOTOWN?!?!

Unthinkable!

[juicefree20]

Nabob,

I've seen people lose their minds over a value pack at KFC, so you know that most of us, myself included might've absolutely lost our minds trying to handle that fame. As as I've always been a private person, I know that I wouldn't responded well to the demands & intrusion of fans.

Though anatomically impossible, I wouldn't have wanted to be in their shoes, nor that of any entertainer, much less a global phenomenon for more that about a week before I'd have been ready to say the hell with it.

People only seem to see the glitz & glamour, but also seem to take for granted the price that fame exacts & requires.

They are definitely to be commended. They could've done far worse & the burden of trying to be all things to all people had to have been difficult & given the circumstances & the times in which they achieved what they did, they deserve a lot of respect & credit because people have spit the bit while enduring far less than these ladies did.

[luke]

Wow fantastic Marv; some gigs were cancelled as I recall from one of the books-in fact a whole tour of Sweden was I believeas Flo was ill. I thought Andy debunked the Marlene subbing for Flo in studio[[not talking about the Andantes as a group). I think he is the authority on this.

[marv2]

All of these posts kind of "tee up" with Marlene doing the background vocals with Mary Wilson on You Can't Hurry Love ~ which Marlene insists were her in the book Vickie wrote. Maybe. Or maybe it's a mix of heaven knows who.


Not necessarily true at all! Using that logic, then Cindy Birdsong would have been on much more recordings with "Diana Ross & the Supremes" than she was during the 1967-69 period since she was seen and it has been documented performing on stage with Mary Wilson and Diana Ross. Flo had some problems, but she was a huge part of the Supremes and their legacy!

[marv2]

Marv,

I can't believe that they would've left such history lying around for the garbage.

It's one thing to read how boxes of records at Chess were boxed up & trashed, but they had went through bankruptcy & there was no attachment, nor concern about what was being done away with.

But MOTOWN?!?!

Unthinkable!

Oh yeah they would! This is America! We walk all over our history all the time to get to the Mall or to build one! LOL! Coming from my family I can say in earnest that this is true. My Mom swept away hundreds of comic books, sports cards [[baseball, football and basketball...) that would have been worth a fortune to day, but to her they were cluttering up her house! Luckily, they saved most of the records and albums.

This is true especially when it came to Motown and Detroit in general. That stuff that was left over in the Donovan Building for years after Motown moved out West just sat there until the building was demolished a few years ago. Some of the content found in the rubble has shown up on Ebay and other online auction sites. I remember during my volunteer days at the Hitsville Museum coming across all sorts of "prized" memorabilia just squashed into old dusty boxes. That stuff had been there for years!

[marv2]

Wow fantastic Marv; some gigs were cancelled as I recall from one of the books-in fact a whole tour of Sweden was I believeas Flo was ill. I thought Andy debunked the Marlene subbing for Flo in studio[[not talking about the Andantes as a group). I think he is the authority on this.

Yes, you are right. I remember several years ago Andy confirmed what I had been saying for years regarding "My World Is Empty Without" in particular and that was there were only Mary, Diana and Florence on that record! The "urban myth" was that it was Mary, Diana and Marlene on it because Flo somehow missed the session.

[jobeterob]

Andy has said not to ask who is the backup on YCHL and confirms they did not replicate the background live............which perhaps makes Marlene's version correct.

[jillfoster]

Berry was proably pessimistic about Flo being sick because from all accounts she had "walking pneumonia" which is a bugger to shake, in his simpleton ignorance, he thought if your'e sick, you get well in a week or two, and that's it... anything longer, and your'e faking it, [[unless it's cancer or something). In this day and age, you take a Z-pack and it knocks it out cold... but they didn't have such things in those days. You can hack and cough your guts out for 2 months with that stuff.

[bradsupremes]

Why would Marlene lie about subbing for Florence in the studio? The several songs from 1966 where people debate whether Florence is on the track or not are the songs I have a good belief that Marlene is on. If you can hear Mary, but you can't hear Florence then that's saying something...

[marv2]

Why would Marlene lie about subbing for Florence in the studio? The several songs from 1966 where people debate whether Florence is on the track or not are the songs I have a good belief that Marlene is on. If you can hear Mary, but you can't hear Florence then that's saying something...

She was not necessarily lying, but Motown had a practice of producing multiple recordings of the songs. Marlene may have sang on many songs that were used to teach the artists the songs when they came in from the road. That does not mean that what she and the Andantes recorded was released as finished product. ..... esssentially demos.

[marv2]

Why would Marlene lie about subbing for Florence in the studio? The several songs from 1966 where people debate whether Florence is on the track or not are the songs I have a good belief that Marlene is on. If you can hear Mary, but you can't hear Florence then that's saying something...

Well Brad, on their first number one hit, "Where Did Our Love Go?", I only ever heard Mary Wilson and Diana Ross on that record. To this day, I only hear their voices, but others have sworn that Florence is on there and that she is standing a ways back from the mic in the studio. I never tried listening to the song using special equipment or whatever. Just the turntable, speakers or on the radio. I couldn't really hear Florence that well on "My World Is Empty Without You" and then along came the Motown remix project around 2003 or 2004 and I could hear Florence very well on the remix.

[luke]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDwkIh6cY7k you can sure here Flo on this!

[stephanie]

Oh God Luke I JUST posted this and gave it its own thread you must have been reading my mind! Do we Supremes fans have ESP? This is so strange,

[Jimi LaLumia]

selling The Supremes image, the last thing Motown would have wanted is a photo history of Supremes fill ins; it would be like George harrison having a fill in at a Beatles gig or recording session; I've always been pro Flo, but I never knew how rampant this was, and how it endangered the on going business of "The Supremes", in which light, I now understand why Mary Wilson took the stance that she did, and even why Ross could havbe been described in Tarraborelli's book as 'giddy' when a new permanent Supreme[[Cindy) was inducted;
from that viewpoint, it's not so much about being 'nasty' as it was about the on going business of The Supremes, which Ross, Wilson and Gordy were still gung ho about;
sadly, poor Florence had taken a different psychological direction, with the fate of a million dollar group on the line..
I'm learning so much on this board, sometimes maybe more than I wanted to...lol..but I'm sticking around..

[luke]

Wow Stephanie-as peter bejamin says-go with the flo!

[Jimi LaLumia]

Andy has said not to ask who is the backup on YCHL and confirms they did not replicate the background live............which perhaps makes Marlene's version correct.

so mysterious...why would Andy say not to ask?...I think most of us have been 'getting the picture' in recent weeks ..yikes!!

[marv2]

selling The Supremes image, the last thing Motown would have wanted is a photo history of Supremes fill ins; it would be like George harrison having a fill in at a Beatles gig or recording session; I've always been pro Flo, but I never knew how rampant this was, and how it endangered the on going business of "The Supremes", in which light, I now understand why Mary Wilson took the stance that she did, and even why Ross could havbe been described in Tarraborelli's book as 'giddy' when a new permanent Supreme[[Cindy) was inducted;
from that viewpoint, it's not so much about being 'nasty' as it was about the on going business of The Supremes, which Ross, Wilson and Gordy were still gung ho about;
sadly, poor Florence had taken a different psychological direction, with the fate of a million dollar group on the line..
I'm learning so much on this board, sometimes maybe more than I wanted to...lol..but I'm sticking around..

Jimi, I hear what you are saying, but don't worry we will never get to the "real uglies" of the situation on this board! LOL!!!! Oh and trust me there are things that you just dont want to know or need to know, I mean not just you, but in general. There is a lot that has never been printed in books and probably for the best.

[marv2]

so mysterious...why would Andy say not to ask?...I think most of us have been 'getting the picture' in recent weeks ..yikes!!

Yeah, but just don't get the wrong picture. IF you really want to open up a big old can of worms, then ask him to deep research some of Ashford & Simpson's productions with specific emphasis on the "Simpson" part of the involvement........!

[marv2]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDwkIh6cY7k you can sure here Flo on this!



I've enjoyed that clip for a while. Very creative, entertaining and enlightening all at the same time. Thank you Luke for bring it back to my attention.

[uptight]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDwkIh6cY7k you can sure here Flo on this!

Luke, that mashup video is an interesting piece of... work. Flo's voice sounds like it comes from an audiotaped interview or something instead of a studio recording.

[jobeterob]

Andy said........be careful what questions you ask, because you might not like the answer. This was in the day when there was shock over who was on Love Child still and we didn't know the Andantes were even on Run Run Run.

I believe Brad recently researched this You Cant Hurry Love question and he knows the details pretty well; I dont know them but he recently posted all the details on a thread. He might post the details again. What I enjoyed about his previous post is that it's not like it's sacreligious; it is just what happened and he just spelled out the facts if you listen to the recording.

I agree with Jim; Berry, Diana and Mary knew not to screw around when times were good; and as all of them found out, the good times and the hits don't last forever. Poor Flo just couldn't get her head around to all of that.

[marv2]

Oh God Luke I JUST posted this and gave it its own thread you must have been reading my mind! Do we Supremes fans have ESP? This is so strange,

Stephanie you too? I have to check out your thread as well.

[marv2]

Andy said........be careful what questions you ask, because you might not like the answer. This was in the day when there was shock over who was on Love Child still and we didn't know the Andantes were even on Run Run Run.

I believe Brad recently researched this You Cant Hurry Love question and he knows the details pretty well; I dont know them but he recently posted all the details on a thread. He might post the details again. What I enjoyed about his previous post is that it's not like it's sacreligious; it is just what happened and he just spelled out the facts if you listen to the recording.

I agree with Jim; Berry, Diana and Mary knew not to screw around when times were good; and as all of them found out, the good times and the hits don't last forever. Poor Flo just couldn't get her head around to all of that.

Nah,nah, nah, nah. There was never any shock over who was on "Love Child" in 1968 or in all the years following the release of that record. We didn't know a thing about it until late 1986 when Mary Wilson published her autobiography , "Dreamgirl, My Life As A Supreme" because that was the first time the subject was ever talked about publicly by anyone from Motown. It is still not a shock to most people because they just listen to it for what it is....music. Most people still assume that it is the Supremes [[i.e. Mary Wilson and Cindy Birdsong) singing in the background. I think I recall Deke Richards, one of the writers and producers of the song saying here that even he assumed it was Mary and Cindy on the record as he always made a point to use them on any productions he was involved in for the Supremes.

I guess I just look at it this way. The Andantes, just like the Funk Brothers , the Originals or whomever they used in the studio to give a record a certain sound that the producer was after, they just went with it. The comment about the Andantes even being on the song "Run, Run, Run" along with Florence, Mary ,Diana and a host of others means nothing. Anyone listening to the song know that those gruff, masculine voices in the background could not be coming from the Supremes. They were used to give the song a certain effect. That's what the Andantes were used for at Motown....instrumentation!

Almost anyone that was at Motown during the early years will tell you that they all chipped in and helped out on each others records. That's why you have the Supremes as back up on records by Mary Wells, Marvin Gaye, Smokey & the Miracles among others. I loved Marvin Gayes' "Can I Get A Witness" on which you can clearly hear Florence Ballard over and above the male backing voices. You have Mary Wilson singing on the Miracles "Mickey's Monkey" and just listen to Marvin's "Wonderful One" and the ladies you hear are Florence, Diane and Mary doing the backgrounds.

I guess my point is, what is the big deal? Maybe I am missing something?

[marv2]

Andy said........be careful what questions you ask, because you might not like the answer. This was in the day when there was shock over who was on Love Child still and we didn't know the Andantes were even on Run Run Run.

I believe Brad recently researched this You Cant Hurry Love question and he knows the details pretty well; I dont know them but he recently posted all the details on a thread. He might post the details again. What I enjoyed about his previous post is that it's not like it's sacreligious; it is just what happened and he just spelled out the facts if you listen to the recording.

I agree with Jim; Berry, Diana and Mary knew not to screw around when times were good; and as all of them found out, the good times and the hits don't last forever. Poor Flo just couldn't get her head around to all of that.


Oh and another thing. All this talk about "Florence couldn't get her head around to all of that....blah,blah,blah...." Some of you are talking as if Florence Ballard was crazy or something. She was not. She knew what she was doing pretty much. She was also not at all that much different from most everyday people. I still believe her response to what was going on regarding her situation with the Supremes and Motown was the typical human reaction! I am not going to go back over all of what we have since learned about her last years with the Supremes and the complex relationship she had with Berry Gordy, Mary and Diane. I just know that many people would not have been happy with the situation and would have responded negatively to it, so all this talk about Flo's inability to "get her head around it " is bullshit. Any one of you would have had the same normal human reaction towards being in that environment. You may have acted out somewhat differently than Flo did, but you would have done something! Why else do you think the public that learned of Florence's story overwhelmingly emphasize with her plight? Everything else that has been said since February 1976 is viewed with suspicion, skepticism and as nothing more than damage control from others.

[juicefree20]

I have to agree with Andy because the truth is that one of the hardest things for many people to accept is the truth.

Last night, I ran across a site which was dedicated to Frankie Lymon & the stuff that I read over there sounded like what I would imagine Sybil having a conversation with all 16 of her selves would've sounded like. Just downright weird to think that adults actually think more immaturely than the average 4th grader & write & speak just as irrationally as a child sometimes does.

I understand their being upset with the movie & how it played out because they turned that sad situation into a big joke. But these folks wanted to argue with facts which came from Richard Barrett, Jimmy Castor & people whom were actually there.

My point is that people who think like this & are obsessed to the point that folks like this are, simply dont want to hear anything but that which supports their particular train of thought, especially if it fits a conspiracy theory. Some folks SAY that they want to hear the truth, but when you tell them, they get mad & would shout down Jesus himself if what they hear doesn't match what they [[people whom weren't even there) what they believe the truth to have been. Truth has never truly been a desired commodity & the truth has been the cause of death of many, from Jesus right down to the so-called "snitch down the block whom wants to rid their block of miscreants.

Peoronally, I believe that more than a few of them are in serious need of therapy because they seem to live not in the outpost up ahead known as the Twilight Zone, but rather in the land of the terminally deluded.

[juicefree20]

I also agree with you Marv because even though I believe that for the purposes intended that the correct choice was made, I also know that I wouldn't have appreciated being in that situation. I also know that eventually, I'd have blown my top because its just not an easy thing to find oneself being being moved into the background when you feel as though you don't deserve to be.

In order to be successful & to have the nerve to perform on any stage,be it sports, business & especially music, one has to have a certain amount of ego & that ego is such that one has to regard themselves as being the equal of anyone & everyone else. Show me an entertainer who doesn't have this mindset & I'll show you someone who will never reach their potential, no matter how much talent they may happen to possess.

Some people are more pliable, realistic & are content to shift to a different role for the greater good. Most others aren't & if they believe that they're not getting a fair shake will react from the range of pouting, arguing, fighting & in some cases, worse than that. Especially if they believe that they're being betrayed.

Now do I believe that she reacted in a way that was in her best interests? I guess that's not for me to say, but history would indicate that the answer is "NO". When all is said & done, I believe that she miscalculated & that they would come around to appreciating her talent & when they didn't, she felt as though someone would stand up for her & to right the slight, so to speak.

I just don't believe that she believed that they would've been so business-like & would remember the good-old days & not replace her. Unfortunately, both she & David Ruffin learned that sentiment & business dont necessarily go hand-in-hand. I can only add that I wish that she had chosen to handle it differently, as I believe that the lesson as per the career of Mary Wells should've made her consider that the world outside of Motown was likely even more treacherous than what was going on inside of Motown.

Unfortunately, The Spinners & Isleys aside, that's a lesson that quite a few others learned the hard way.

[Jimi LaLumia]

Unfortunately, The Spinners & Isleys aside, that's a lesson that quite a few others learned the hard way.

Don't forget The Four Tops[[Keeper Of The Castle, Ain't No Woman Like The One I got, etc), Gladys Knight & the Pips[[I've Got To Use My Imagination,Midnight Train To Georgia,etc) Michael Jackson & The Jackson 5 [[on Epic) ,Marvin Gaye[[Sexual Healing), lots of folks did well after leaving Motown..even Diana Ross!!

[marv2]

Unfortunately, The Spinners & Isleys aside, that's a lesson that quite a few others learned the hard way.

Don't forget The Four Tops[[Keeper Of The Castle, Ain't No Woman Like The One I got, etc), Gladys Knight & the Pips[[I've Got To Use My Imagination,Midnight Train To Georgia,etc) Michael Jackson & The Jackson 5 [[on Epic) ,Marvin Gaye[[Sexual Healing), lots of folks did well after leaving Motown..even Diana Ross!!


They did alright for a while [[Diana Ross, in particular, for a short while). Had they left Motown in the 60's, it might have been a different story. By the time the artists that mentioned left, the "Motown Sound" was no longer as popular as it once was.

[Jimi LaLumia]

Michael Jackson did quite alright for a long while....lol..Gordy must still be flipping to this very day!!!..#1 album ever!!!

[marv2]

Michael Jackson did quite alright for a long while....lol..Gordy must still be flipping to this very day!!!..#1 album ever!!!

I believe Berry was really proud of Michael Jackson. He was one of the few that transcended record labels, companies etc.

[Jimi LaLumia]

and Motown made a ton $$$$$$ on back catalog sales when the MJ Epic machine kicked into gear...

[Roberta75]

Michael Jackson did quite alright for a long while....lol..Gordy must still be flipping to this very day!!!..#1 album ever!!!

I very much doubt that Berry Gordy is sitting around today thinking about the money he lost when MJ went to Epic and Sony.

[marv2]

and Motown made a ton $$$$$$ on back catalog sales when the MJ Epic machine kicked into gear...

I KNOW that's right!!!!

[rod_rick]

Hey Marv
I think the issue of Mary and indy not being on Love Child was raised when Mary brought her lawsuit against Motown in the late 77 78. If I'm not mistaken it was published in Soul magazine. I have the issue when i get sometime I will double check.

[jobeterob]

I don't remember when the information on Love Child first came out but I know I didn't really believe it. Now it's so very clear that it isn't any Supremes. But the Someday We'll Be Together recording is remarkable to think we bought it; I remember I thought Mary was doing the Johnny Bristol lines...........well, she has kind of a deep voice!

[marv2]

Hey Marv
I think the issue of Mary and indy not being on Love Child was raised when Mary brought her lawsuit against Motown in the late 77 78. If I'm not mistaken it was published in Soul magazine. I have the issue when i get sometime I will double check.

Rod_rick, you are exactly right! I was going to mention that during the lawsuit brought by Marko A. Turk in 1977 on behalf of Mary Wilson, in the complaint she alledged that Motown had illegally [[according to her contract) replaced her on Supremes recordings [[citing "Love Child" and "Someday We'll Be Together"). The main thrust of the complaint was that Mary was underage when she signed with Motown in 1961 and her Mom could neither read or write at the time! However, the issue over Mary and Cindy not being on Love Child was not known to the general public until it was written about in "Dreamgirl, My Life As A Supreme". I know Soul magazine was popular among it's niche market, the book was a general market publication and that is when most heard of this.

[marv2]

I don't remember when the information on Love Child first came out but I know I didn't really believe it. Now it's so very clear that it isn't any Supremes. But the Someday We'll Be Together recording is remarkable to think we bought it; I remember I thought Mary was doing the Johnny Bristol lines...........well, she has kind of a deep voice!

"Dreamgirl, My Life As A Supreme" was released in October 1986, 18 years after "Love Child" was released. No one was talking about "Love Child" much at all during that 18 year span! LOL!!!

[luke]

And relatedly I told Cindy personally at the Waldorf in 1968 that I loved the fact that she and Mary were more audible on No Matter Waht Sign You Are!! She smiled and said thank you. Shows how much the general public knew!!

[jobeterob]

I bet the Supremes themselves either just believed they were on most of the songs or never even knew it was an issue. But most likely they were never told in the early songs or did not realize other people were singing with them.

Until today, I never realized how little Flo was on Where Did Our Love Go. I'm gathering from Rod they just repeated what they recorded again and again.

All very interesting.

[Jimi LaLumia]

please,really?..
of course they knew what they were and weren't on,who was or wasn't hitting what notes,what their own voices sound like
...do you think they'd tell the fans at the time, or even after that"the record says the Supremes but I'm not really singing on it"...
this explains the frustration that Mary Wilson must have felt and the crisis of confidence she suffered at one time, the doubt that was planted about her singing ability,which led to her actions at Motown:25 and the Dreamgirls book, which revealed at least some of the truth..I now doubt that the full truth will ever be revealed,which is probably just as well, as insiders advise us not to ask who is actualy singing on records like YCHL, which at that time was supposedly just the three...

[rod_rick]

I bet the Supremes themselves either just believed they were on most of the songs or never even knew it was an issue. But most likely they were never told in the early songs or did not realize other people were singing with them.

Until today, I never realized how little Flo was on Where Did Our Love Go. I'm gathering from Rod they just repeated what they recorded again and again.

All very interesting.

Hey Rob
That's on that singing machine Motown kareoke cd. Because of the way some of the songs were recorded back then there were a lot of bleeding into other microphones. On that same cd, there are no background vocals for Baby Love, all the vocals are on one version then there is just an instrumental track with no vocals at all. Mary and Florence are singing their baby baby where did our love go form start to finish on the original track.

[luke]

Duh, yes I know. Cindy had to play dumb and the public never knew-my point.

[marv2]

And relatedly I told Cindy personally at the Waldorf in 1968 that I loved the fact that she and Mary were more audible on No Matter Waht Sign You Are!! She smiled and said thank you. Shows how much the general public knew!!

Uh huh! See what I am saying? I don't even think the artist remember all the recordings they did and when they did them! It was work!

[marv2]

Duh, yes I know. Cindy had to play dumb and the public never knew-my point.

She knew one thing..........she had to go out there and sell it!

[johnjeb]

I don't remember when the information on Love Child first came out but I know I didn't really believe it. Now it's so very clear that it isn't any Supremes. But the Someday We'll Be Together recording is remarkable to think we bought it; I remember I thought Mary was doing the Johnny Bristol lines...........well, she has kind of a deep voice!

jobeterob, I just assumed it was Mary, also. Never gave it much thought at the time. I did see them lipsynch to "Someday..." on Hollywood Palace and Mary visibly lipsynchs to Johnny Birstols's vocals, although she doesn't look too pleased. I guess that was good enough for me - I figured it was Mary.

[detmotownguy]

Nah,nah, nah, nah. There was never any shock over who was on "Love Child" in 1968 or in all the years following the release of that record. We didn't know a thing about it until late 1986 when Mary Wilson published her autobiography , "Dreamgirl, My Life As A Supreme" because that was the first time the subject was ever talked about publicly by anyone from Motown. It is still not a shock to most people because they just listen to it for what it is....music. Most people still assume that it is the Supremes [[i.e. Mary Wilson and Cindy Birdsong) singing in the background. I think I recall Deke Richards, one of the writers and producers of the song saying here that even he assumed it was Mary and Cindy on the record as he always made a point to use them on any productions he was involved in for the Supremes.

I guess I just look at it this way. The Andantes, just like the Funk Brothers , the Originals or whomever they used in the studio to give a record a certain sound that the producer was after, they just went with it. The comment about the Andantes even being on the song "Run, Run, Run" along with Florence, Mary ,Diana and a host of others means nothing. Anyone listening to the song know that those gruff, masculine voices in the background could not be coming from the Supremes. They were used to give the song a certain effect. That's what the Andantes were used for at Motown....instrumentation!

Almost anyone that was at Motown during the early years will tell you that they all chipped in and helped out on each others records. That's why you have the Supremes as back up on records by Mary Wells, Marvin Gaye, Smokey & the Miracles among others. I loved Marvin Gayes' "Can I Get A Witness" on which you can clearly hear Florence Ballard over and above the male backing voices. You have Mary Wilson singing on the Miracles "Mickey's Monkey" and just listen to Marvin's "Wonderful One" and the ladies you hear are Florence, Diane and Mary doing the backgrounds.

I guess my point is, what is the big deal? Maybe I am missing something?

Hi Marv:
Good explanation, "They were used to give the song a certain effect. That's what the Andantes were used for at Motown....instrumentation"!

[marv2]

Hi Marv:
Good explanation, "They were used to give the song a certain effect. That's what the Andantes were used for at Motown....instrumentation"!

Thanks Detmotownguy. I doubt the Andantes would argue that summation either. I am sure they are proud of their work.

[franjoy56]

What tracks did Marlene record in the studio in Flo's place besides You Can't Hurry Love
and the infamous tale of My World is empty without you, I don't believe Marlene's image would have stood up as a permanenet fill in but Cindy definetly had the look and was the perfect choice. And yes Flo, put up with a lot of mess, and it is a wonder she was able to hang in their as long as she did, but on stage she was always on from what i'v seen. especially with the new Ed Sullivan show and other supremes clips from the 60's



Marlene Barrow subbed for Flo in early 1966 when Florence was sick. I don't think Berry believed she was sick so Marlene was sent out. This picture is most likely from the first time Marlene subbed for Florence when they performed for a private party at a country club in Detroit. After that, I believe Diana, Mary and Marlene did a series of one nighters and an engagement at Blinstrub's in Boston. Berry was going to keep Marlene on for the Copa engagement to teach Florence a lesson, but Jules Podell was adamant that Florence be there.

Marlene also subbed for Florence in several recording sessions and then on tour again in early 1967 when the troubles with Florence got really serious.