"stop! in the name"of love" question

[thisoldheart]

i just received the nicely packaged "50th anniversary singles collection. here is my question to you wonderful motown experts [[i am sadly a life long motown fanatic, but no expert!):

the written entry for the single "stop! i the name of love" says this: "diana, mary, and florence recorded the song but four days later the tune was recut with the andantes. this became the released version that received a grammy nomination for best contemporary rock & roll performance by a group. it lost to "flowers on the wall" by the statler brothers."

does this mean the 45 i bought in 6th grade has only ross and the andantes, ross with mary and flo augmented by the andantes, or did the grammy nominated version come from the version on either the mono or stereo version on "more hits by the supremes"???

so, my questions in a nutshell experts: who is singing on the 45, and if different than the mono or stereo l.p. version of "more hits" who sings on the album mono and/or stereo versions, if different???

... and a related question not specific to my "stop! in the name if love" question. why so damn many versions?! until i started reading the more carefully annotated notes on latter anthology releases, i never noticed that i was often listening to two different versions. i had most all motown singles and some albums in my grade school and high school buying days and listened to both the single and mono album versions until i had to buy another copy because i had wore a groove so deep the disc was unlististenable.

hope you all note i have tried to be as clear as i can in my questions because i felt the notes for the single i am asking about was ambiguous. if i not being clear enough, ask me what you need to know to clearly answer my question. god is in the details!

[ejluther]

Great question - there seem to be SO many versions of Supremes' songs around that it's simultaneously exciting/frustrating to try and keep track of them all. As for STOP!..., I had no idea there was even a possibility of Flo & Mary not being on it. I haven't gotten my copy of this box set in the mail yet - does the song/the backing vocals sound different to you at all?

And as for The Andantes - they sang background for lots of different Motown groups, yes? Not just The Supremes? If so, what other backup vocalists did they "stand in" for? People like The Vandellas and The Marvellettes? And why exactly did they do this? Was it just for simplicity's sake? Or something about the way they specifically sounded? And when they did do it, the "real" members of the groups still got any royalties then? For instance, I've always assumed Mary and Cindy would have gotten royalties for "Love Child" even though they didn't sing on it but, as well all know, assuming things is not the same as knowing them.

[randy_russi]

Well, it's hard to say, but who wrote the liner notes for the 50th Anniversary CD set? I know there was a different version
that had never been released which appeared on the Supremes box set a few years back. I always thought all versions
sounded as if Mary and Florence are doing the backups; perhaps enhanced by the Andantes.

[ejluther]

One other question about The Andantes; I always thought their doing background vocals for the "real" groups was something that started happening later in the 60's but it appears that's wrong - Wikipedia, for what it's worth*, says they started doing it in 1962. Wikipedia also says they only did backing tracks for 6 Supremes' singles:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Andantes


They appeared as backing vocalists on six singles for Diana Ross & the Supremes:

"In and Out of Love [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_and_out_of_Love_[[The_Supremes_song))"
"Forever Came Today [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forever_Came_Today)"
"Love Child [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love_Child_[[song))"
"I'm Livin' in Shame [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I%27m_Livin%27_in_Shame)"
"The Composer [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Composer)"
"No Matter What Sign You Are [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Matter_What_Sign_You_Are)"
Of course, that doesn't include all the album tracks they might have/apparently did [[the bulk of MERRY CHRISTMAS, for example). Wikipedia also says this that I didn't know 'Barrow also substituted for Florence Ballard [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florence_Ballard) of The Supremes in concert on several occasions.' I thought it happened once or twice but "several occasions"? Is that right?

Again, why use The Andantes instead of the "real" singers? I hope this isn't a touchy subject for some weird reason - I'm honestly just curious about it.

*I realize Wikipedia is hardly the most trustworthy site out there, but often times they are correct and it's a place to start.

[reese]

In the notes for THE COMPLETE MOTOWN SINGLES: 1965, it says that Andante Marlene Barrow sang along with Mary and Flo on STOP!

[RossHolloway]

If I'm remembering correctly Motown Andy also said the Andantes are on When The Lovelight Starts Shining, they are in the background and used for sweetining the background along with Mary and Florence.

[BayouMotownMan]

I will go with the TCMS accounting, I definitely hear Flo on Stop! If anything there may be one other voice.

Eddie Holland himself jumps on to many of the backing tracks the Supremes recorded. You can hear him on Send Me No Flowers, I'm In Love Again and Always In My Heart

[kenneth]

Again, why use The Andantes instead of the "real" singers? I hope this isn't a touchy subject for some weird reason - I'm honestly just curious about it.

The usual reason given is that the studio could have mucho backing tracks ready to go which were somewhat "in the can" except for lead vocals. This gave the producers more time to record while the groups were out on the road touring, and also gave the production team more flexibility in trying out different lead singers [[Diane of the Supremes, Martha of the Vandellas) on top of the backing tracks. As Motown was wont to do, they often recorded the same song with different singers in deciding which would get to have the single release. This use of the Andantes as "anonymous" background vocalists is part of the Motown legend and why they're often compared to the Detroit assembly line manufacturing process. I never had any idea who the Andantes were or that they were singing on all these tracks and I must say to learn that, it was somewhat disappointing. Certainly now, the Supremes tracks with Mary and [[especially) Flo have quite a different sound than the usually nondescript backups by the Andantes.

[ejluther]

Certainly now, the Supremes tracks with Mary and [[especially) Flo have quite a different sound than the usually nondescript backups by the Andantes.
They really do. Thanks for all the info - it makes me sad that, once they decided who was going to release the single/song, they just didn't re-record/use the backing tracks with the "right" singers. If nothing else, it obviously couldn't have been good for the morale of the backup singers themselves to not even been on the very records that bear their names. I know much of the entertainment industry is smoke & mirrors like this stuff but that doesn't mean we have to like it.

This use of the Andantes as "anonymous" background vocalists is part of the Motown legend and why they're often compared to the Detroit assembly line manufacturing process.
Good point - I wonder how and why this practice got revealed in the first place? I imagine Motown didn't want to publicize that the singers on the labels weren't always on the song.

[reese]

They really do. Thanks for all the info - it makes me sad that, once they decided who was going to release the single/song, they just didn't re-record/use the backing tracks with the "right" singers. If nothing else, it obviously couldn't have been good for the morale of the backup singers themselves to not even been on the very records that bear their names. I know much of the entertainment industry is smoke & mirrors like this stuff but that doesn't mean we have to like it.

Good point - I wonder how and why this practice got revealed in the first place? I imagine Motown didn't want to publicize that the singers on the labels weren't always on the song.

I figured it out myself just by listening to the background vocals. It always intrigued how some of the early background vocals for the Supremes, Vandellas, and Marvelettes sounded raw and distinctive, and then really polished as the years went on. At first, I just assumed that the voices became more mature as time went on. Then one day a light bulb went off, and I just realized it wasn't them.

The first place I remember seeing this in print was in Peter Benjaminson's book THE STORY OF MOTOWN from 1979. But I don't recall him calling the Andantes by name, only referring to them as anonymous background singers.

[soulballad]

I remember an interview that Mary did a while ago where she stated that their sound was never the same after Barbara left because with Barbara they could create the three part harmonies that sounded full. Right after Barbara left Diana was used in the background along with Flo and Mary. Also as mentioned above sometimes HDH sang with the group adding their vocals to Supremes and Vandellas tracks [[HDH is on the Vandellas "A Love Like Yours".) Having said all of this I'm pretty sure Florence is doing the top harmony with Mary on the middle harmony and a third singer on the bottom on "Stop". I always thought that the deep voice that I heard on "Stop" was Jackie Hicks and not Marlene as Jackie was always the deeper alto voice. Jackie's is the voice you hear on Junior Walkers "What Does It Take To Win Your Love". I hear a similar combination of voices on "Any Girl In Love" from The I hear A Symphony album. It was stated that it's the Andantes alone on the song but I'm hearing at least four voices with Florence being one of them. If you listen to Kim's version you get to hear the Andantes alone. It's interesting to to know what when on in the studio to produce a certain sound.

[RossHolloway]

At this point in time, for me at least, I find it interesting in the same way I find it interesting what musicians played on what songs. I fully understand why the producers did what they did in using the Andantes, but at the end of the day, a great song is still a great song.

[skooldem1]

I agree, a good song is a good song, and Diana Ross recorded some great songs under the guise of "The Supremes". I don't worry too much about these things. Flo and Mary certainly didn't have a problem collecting royalty checks for songs that Diana Ross recorded, so why should fans be upset? I have always said, be careful of what you wish for. For years Supreme fans have always wanted to let everyone know just how important background vocals were to these classic hits- to the point of pushing up bg vocals on youtube clips, etc. Only to find out it wasn't even Flo, Mary and Cindy on alot of those songs. In wanting to diminish Diana's importance to the group and increase the importance of others, I imagine it must be a big let down to find out in the end that its ALL DIANA. Perhaps Diana wasn't as delusional as some tried to paint her when she said "Mary is out there singing MY songs".

[soulballad]

Another thing to keep in mind is nobody thought these songs would last for 50 plus years so it was not a big deal at the time. Another truth that has come to light is that a lot of the singles really didn't sell as much as originally thought, so therefore the royalties were not that great. It was all hype which is what most of the entertainment business is. This is something that Diana and Mary figured out later on when the money wasn't there. I think Florence had a better idea of what was really happening. Only the writers and producers did okay but even they got the short end of the stick. Groups like the Supremes made their money by touring and personal appearences which quicky evaporated into the "companies" account.

[BayouMotownMan]

Any Girl In Love? I've listened to the Supremes and Kim Weston's version hundreds of times and do not hear Florence

[skooldem1]

Were some here actually fooled by the "Million Selling..." advertisements?? The Supremes were the most successful American group in the 60's. Don't know how much they sold, but its far more than anyone else. The numbers I've seen recently look about right. Great numbers, but a let down for those who actually believed that every "million selling hit" actually sold that much.

[motony]

the singles sold MORE then what was reported as they did NOT want to pay the proper royalties.I knew many people at the top distribotors in the country in the late 60's early 70's [[Schwartz Bros in Washington & Tone In Miami) and they said Motown sold BIG not counting the bootleggers.Motown sold more 45's then all the other major labels.Schwartz Bros was big in the Washington, Philly Baltimore ect. Tone for the majority of the Southeast.Motown was not alone in shorting royalties to artists.I've seen several of these newer releases crediting "Andantes" for stuff they did not do like maybe a track was recorded with anonomous backgrounds & then those were erased or lowered when the group came in.Listen to Mary Wells version of "Whisper You Love Me Boy" & "He Holds His Own" & then listen to the Supremes version.Marys sounds like the Andantes but the Supremes could be a mix. What do you think?If Motown wasn't selling BIG they sure would not have had the money to do different versions & to keep recording artists that were not selling.

[kenneth]

the singles sold MORE then what was reported as they did NOT want to pay the proper royalties.I knew many people at the top distribotors in the country in the late 60's early 70's [[Schwartz Bros in Washington & Tone In Miami) and they said Motown sold BIG not counting the bootleggers.Motown sold more 45's then all the other major labels.Schwartz Bros was big in the Washington, Philly Baltimore ect. Tone for the majority of the Southeast.Motown was not alone in shorting royalties to artists.I've seen several of these newer releases crediting "Andantes" for stuff they did not do like maybe a track was recorded with anonomous backgrounds & then those were erased or lowered when the group came in.Listen to Mary Wells version of "Whisper You Love Me Boy" & "He Holds His Own" & then listen to the Supremes version.Marys sounds like the Andantes but the Supremes could be a mix. What do you think?If Motown wasn't selling BIG they sure would not have had the money to do different versions & to keep recording artists that were not selling.

Also, Motown didn't allow their sales to be audited by the RIAA; hence, why they do not have official gold records. They sometimes say this was a gold record, or whatever, but it's just their own claim, not one given to them by the RIAA for certified sales. I think it was in Mary's first book where she said someone at Motown used to just spray paint a 45 with gold paint and present it to them for photo ops. So cheesy!

[motony]

I read a statement from Phil Spector in the early 70's where he said that for Motown to have the hits that they had they must be recording non-stop 24 hrs a day.Ofcourse, they were.

[RossHolloway]

Would people love Stop! In the Name of Love if it only sold 500k copies or would they love it more if it sold 5 million copies? A great song is a great song regardless of how many copies it sells.

[motony]

there are millions of great songs that didn't sell 5,000 copies but the fact is selling records is the business of the record company, artists, writers & producers & the connected employees.Just think of all the people that were employed in the record business that the new technology put out of business...not to mention the thousands in retail.

[roger]

Would people love Stop! In the Name of Love if it only sold 500k copies or would they love it more if it sold 5 million copies? A great song is a great song regardless of how many copies it sells.

I think some people in Britain would have loved it more if it had sold only 500 copies .. that would make it an "undiscovered rarity" and a "secret sound" .. LOL :)

I'm not sure what the UK sales actually were, but they must have been well into the hundred thousands as it reached #7 in 1965 and the British charts were always based on reported sales.

Roger

[motony]

roger, I heard back in the day[[the 60's) that a huge seller in England or UK would sell 250,000.copies.This is for 45RPM singles.

[marv2]

Well, it's hard to say, but who wrote the liner notes for the 50th Anniversary CD set? I know there was a different version
that had never been released which appeared on the Supremes box set a few years back. I always thought all versions
sounded as if Mary and Florence are doing the backups; perhaps enhanced by the Andantes.

Mary says that it is herself and Florence Ballard singing the backups on "Stop In the Name of Love" and no one else.

[marv2]

I agree, a good song is a good song, and Diana Ross recorded some great songs under the guise of "The Supremes". I don't worry too much about these things. Flo and Mary certainly didn't have a problem collecting royalty checks for songs that Diana Ross recorded, so why should fans be upset? I have always said, be careful of what you wish for. For years Supreme fans have always wanted to let everyone know just how important background vocals were to these classic hits- to the point of pushing up bg vocals on youtube clips, etc. Only to find out it wasn't even Flo, Mary and Cindy on alot of those songs. In wanting to diminish Diana's importance to the group and increase the importance of others, I imagine it must be a big let down to find out in the end that its ALL DIANA. Perhaps Diana wasn't as delusional as some tried to paint her when she said "Mary is out there singing MY songs".

Please, let's not even go there. It was never all Diane. When she made that statement to Barbara Walters she inadvertently cut her own throat in front of a national audience. Mary and Florence are on 85-90 per cent of those songs and all of the early hits. The last two hits used session singers such as the Andantes for convenience purposes.

[skooldem1]

Here is the acapella version of Stop! In the name of Love.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7t_l2rws-8

[Jimi LaLumia]

it would be a massive fraud on the part of Motown to reveal, for whatever reasons, that
The Supremes" was actually a "Milli Vanilli" scam, and it does Ross no favors that she needed The andantes to fill out her rough edges; as a Supremes fan since 1964, these revelations become more and more degrading to fans of "the group"[[as compared to fans of just "the songs"),and obviously Motown knew that the 'brand' was terribly inportant , which is why the charade was continued when Jean Terrell stepped in..

[roger]

roger, I heard back in the day[[the 60's) that a huge seller in England or UK would sell 250,000.copies.This is for 45RPM singles.

That sounds about right for the end of the '60s Motony .. Back around 1969/70 I used to get Record Mirror Magazine, their singles chart would mark records that had been awarded "silver discs" which I believe meant they had sold 250,000 .. typically records needed to be in the top three for a few weeks to sell that amount. Sales of 45s in Britain would have been higher when "Stop In The Name Of Love" was a hit in 1965 as there was a big decline in the 1967/8 period when a lot of music fans took to buying LPs instead.

Roger

[Jimi LaLumia]

of course the size of England vs. the size of the U.S. means the #s could never be the same for gold or platinum,they obviously had to be adjusted;
as the lovely Cherry Vanilla once said, "Having a hit in England is like having a hit in New Jersey"[[I'm sure she meant in terms of size of the population)

[midnight johnny]

This is quite an amazing thread.....

[nabob]

Good point - I wonder how and why this practice [of using the Andantes for background vocals] got revealed in the first place? I imagine Motown didn't want to publicize that the singers on the labels weren't always on the song.Would it have been any different than Darlene Love actually singing so many songs that were credited to other artists? or later Martha Wash? or Milli Vanillie fronting for some one else?

[luke]

Is it definite Mary and Flo not on In and Out? I thought the Andantes were added. Flo said she distinctly remembers being on Forever Came Today! Im very surprised about Stop! Im sure Flo is in there somewhere. And Ive always said Where did our Loove Go sounds like a duet with Diana and Mary! I heard a live In and Out and Mary and Cindy sound exactly like the record only a bit more distinctive. And Cindy has said she was very upset she and Mary not used on some recordings.

[midnight johnny]

Keep in mind that Mary can record background; Flo can record background. Mary and/or Flo can be erased and someone else can come in and record a new background vocal. If the song is recorded once....many mixes can be created with any singers on the track that are desired. We KNOW that Motown was capable of any sort of sleight-of-hand....Marvin being engineered onto Tammi's solo tracks, Valerie taking the place of Tammi unbeknownst to the public.

[kenneth]

Would it have been any different than Darlene Love actually singing so many songs that were credited to other artists? or later Martha Wash? or Milli Vanillie fronting for some one else?

Nothing is as sucky as that Milli Vannilli...a well deserved embarrassment to the Grammys who are so quick to label the latest craze "artist of the year" or "song of the year." Sad story, naturally for the two guys who, even though they were part of the fraud, still didn't deserve the hateful backlash that resulted.

[thisoldheart]

let me jump back into the topic i started!!! i didn't mean to place any judgement call on "stop! in the name of love"! i love it no matter who the hell is singing on it. my question is just who is singing on it! if any of you have the new singles set. read the entry and tell me what the writer means by the statement i originally quoted.

i have a degree in art history. correct attribution is very important in the art world. work is frequently very hard to give correct credit. however, it seems that the further we move from forward in time, the more information seems to creep out. is the new info correct, or just as unreliable as it was in 1965?

sooooo ... does anybody really know the correct attribution to this 45? i wanna know from a historical point of view! i am not one who participates in the continual ross vs wilson battles!!

[Jimi LaLumia]

Yes, it is diifferent because The Supremes were the #1 american 'group" of the 60's,[[it would be like finding out that The beatles didn't sing on their records), not to mention the civil rights sisterhood breakthough that the 'group' was supposed to represent..why not have just made it the Diana Ross show from "Where Did Our Love Go" instead of the sham of it all?[[I'm still a fan of Ross, and a fan of the 'idea' of the 'group', but this is still disgusting to find out,as the story continues to unfold)

[midnight johnny]

i am not one who participates in the continual ross vs wilson battles!!


That may be...but bringing up ANYTHING "Supreme" is an open invitation to some....

[thisoldheart]

That may be...but bringing up ANYTHING "Supreme" is an open invitation to some....
i can see that! ... and that is precisely what i want to avoid! ... just the facts ... if known ... or rumour if a source is stated ... not opinion. and NO supreme wars, please!!

peace & love!

[RossHolloway]

i can see that! ... and that is precisely what i want to avoid! ... just the facts ... if known ... or rumour if a source is stated ... not opinion. and NO supreme wars, please!!

peace & love!


Did you listen to the acapella clip on Youtube? What do your ears tell you?

P.S. Don't feed the trolls, they're like stray cats, once you do they'll never go away.

[Jimi LaLumia]

well, I'm hoping it's not true: I want to read this "Stop' story for myself when the box arrives here in the next day or two

[uptight]

Even if Flo remembers singing on a song like "Forever Came Today," it doesn't mean her vocal track was used on the released record. And other voices could have been blended with her track. The a cappella version of "Stop!" has so many voices you can see that it is difficult for some to pick out Flo's. I believe I hear Flo in "Stop" with extra voices like an Andante or Mary.

The Supremes were a stage act. And the Andantes were used in the studio to give the records a fuller sound. As paid staff in the Hitsville studio, The Andantes focused on creating harmonies for the records that the stage acts had little or no time to work out. Both sets of women had their respective jobs to do.

[luke]

Flo remembered being on Forever... I thought the Andantes were ADDED to In and Out..

[Jimi LaLumia]

as uptight said, she may remember cutting a vocal for it, but that does not mean that others didn't as well, and the question is about the final,released product..oh well, I still love the records, regardless..

[motony]

IMHO this "use" of Andantes on the female groups records is overblown, it didn't start til the mid-60's.Motown as a business did hold grudges & in later years look at the artists that sued for continuing royalties or sued when they left like Mary Wells & Florence Ballard so it was important business wise to minimize the role of these artists.Those Andantes did not sing on the earlier Martha & the Vandellas records that were big hits or Marvelettes records that were big hits[[61-64).In essence I'm sayin the company over the years due to lawsuits ect has wanted to minimize the importance of the individual artists.I never hear anyone complain about the Andantes esp Louvain being on all the Four Tops hits.

[motony]

thanks Skooldem for posting the accapella version sure sounds like Florence & Mary to me

[marv2]

Yes, it is diifferent because The Supremes were the #1 american 'group" of the 60's,[[it would be like finding out that The beatles didn't sing on their records), not to mention the civil rights sisterhood breakthough that the 'group' was supposed to represent..why not have just made it the Diana Ross show from "Where Did Our Love Go" instead of the sham of it all?[[I'm still a fan of Ross, and a fan of the 'idea' of the 'group', but this is still disgusting to find out,as the story continues to unfold)

Because that would have been a lie [[i.e. Diana Ross show,etc). I just told you Mary and Florence are on most of the records released by the Original Supremes. Let's not change the facts.

[bradsupremes]

If I remember correctly, the story about Florence saying she sang on "Forever Came Today" came from Tony Turner's book. I only take that with a grain of salt.

There is no way Florence ever recorded "Forever Came Today." The instrumental track was recorded in Los Angeles on April 20, 1967. The track at the time was assigned to the Miracles, not the Supremes. It's not until December of 1967 when additional overdubs were added to the track which included Diana's lead vocal on December 20th and then the Andantes' background vocals recorded on January 6 and 23, 1968. I assume the background vocals recorded on January 6th were the ones used on the Greatest Hits Japanese Quad album whereas the January 23rd date were the vocals used on the 45 and all releases after.

I always assumed that it was Mary, Florence and the Andantes on "In And Out of Love" where their vocal tracks were mixed together. Now, I'm beginning to think Mary and Florence's track was either erased or the Andantes were dubbed over onto their track making it impossible to distinguish the ladies.

[marv2]

You see those three chicks standing behind Marvin and Kim? Those were the Andantes. This is how they pretty much recorded in those days.....everyone there together. This is 1966. Later on, they changed the process:

[marv2]

Here is the acapella version of Stop! In the name of Love.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7t_l2rws-8

....and there you have it! That is Mary Wilson and Florence Ballard singing on that record as clear as day!

[marv2]

IMHO this "use" of Andantes on the female groups records is overblown, it didn't start til the mid-60's.Motown as a business did hold grudges & in later years look at the artists that sued for continuing royalties or sued when they left like Mary Wells & Florence Ballard so it was important business wise to minimize the role of these artists.Those Andantes did not sing on the earlier Martha & the Vandellas records that were big hits or Marvelettes records that were big hits[[61-64).In essence I'm sayin the company over the years due to lawsuits ect has wanted to minimize the importance of the individual artists.I never hear anyone complain about the Andantes esp Louvain being on all the Four Tops hits.

People are making a bigger deal out of use of the Andantes to round out the sound a producer may have wanted on SOME recordings. Now I wished Mary had never put that in her book regarding "Love Child" and "Someday" because now you have a handful of folks taking that little tidbit and S-T-R-E-C-T-H-I-N-G it to the point of where they are "hearing things", voices that are not even there!

[marv2]

i just received the nicely packaged "50th anniversary singles collection. here is my question to you wonderful motown experts [[i am sadly a life long motown fanatic, but no expert!):

the written entry for the single "stop! i the name of love" says this: "diana, mary, and florence recorded the song but four days later the tune was recut with the andantes. this became the released version that received a grammy nomination for best contemporary rock & roll performance by a group. it lost to "flowers on the wall" by the statler brothers."

does this mean the 45 i bought in 6th grade has only ross and the andantes, ross with mary and flo augmented by the andantes, or did the grammy nominated version come from the version on either the mono or stereo version on "more hits by the supremes"???

so, my questions in a nutshell experts: who is singing on the 45, and if different than the mono or stereo l.p. version of "more hits" who sings on the album mono and/or stereo versions, if different???

... and a related question not specific to my "stop! in the name if love" question. why so damn many versions?! until i started reading the more carefully annotated notes on latter anthology releases, i never noticed that i was often listening to two different versions. i had most all motown singles and some albums in my grade school and high school buying days and listened to both the single and mono album versions until i had to buy another copy because i had wore a groove so deep the disc was unlististenable.

hope you all note i have tried to be as clear as i can in my questions because i felt the notes for the single i am asking about was ambiguous. if i not being clear enough, ask me what you need to know to clearly answer my question. god is in the details!

thisoldheart, who ever wrote that got it wrong. The only "experts" are those that were at those recording sessions. There is a guy on Youtube that still swears that it was Carol Kaye playing on Stevie Wonder's " I Was Made To Love Her", even after those that were at the session confirmed that it was James Jamerson!

[pj1]

Well, it's hard to say, but who wrote the liner notes for the 50th Anniversary CD set? I know there was a different version
that had never been released which appeared on the Supremes box set a few years back. I always thought all versions
sounded as if Mary and Florence are doing the backups; perhaps enhanced by the Andantes.

If one listens to the alternate version of "Stop! In The Name Of Love" [[Disc 1, Track 19)
that appears on the 2000 Supreme box set, you will definitely hear Flo loud and clear carrying the background vocals. Contrasted to "Where Did Our Love Go" [[Mary's voice prominent in background), one might wonder where Mary went here.
Next listen to the live version [[Bonus disc [In Person An Evening With The Supremes, Track 4), and one hears a blend of Flo and Mary in the background.
Finish with the Motown/The Singing Machine [[Karaoke Disc 6, Track 1) Multiplex: With Lead Vocals. The voice that I always assumed was Flo's [[in this, the hit version) doesn't sound the same as in the first [[alternate) version. The timbre is definitely different.

[luke]

Now Marv dont be so silly. Just because you hear Mary clearly on Where Did Our Love Go and Flo on You Keep Me Hangin On etc etc - and unlike the other female groups they also had leads and people like Annie Lennox have called their harmonies "brilliant" in Rollling Stone this year....lets just rewrite history.

[marv2]

Now Marv dont be so silly. Just because you hear Mary clearly on Where Did Our Love Go and Flo on You Keep Me Hangin On etc etc - and unlike the other female groups they also had leads and people like Annie Lennox have called their harmonies "brilliant" in Rollling Stone this year....lets just rewrite history.

Okey Dokey, Luke! hehehehehehehe........! I am itching to text "somebody" just for reconfirmation! LOL!!!!

[luke]

Im sure someone may be very surpised to hear about this!! Maybe the Andantes helped them do the hand movements for Stop too! Check that out too please.

[midnight johnny]

Im sure someone may be very surpised to hear about this!! Maybe the Andantes helped them do the hand movements for Stop too! Check that out too please.

I'm reading a book right now that says Cholly Atkins said he did it...but that was challenged....saying Paul Williams taught them that move.

[marv2]

Im sure someone may be very surpised to hear about this!! Maybe the Andantes helped them do the hand movements for Stop too! Check that out too please.

Agitated is more like it..........! hehehehehehe......

[marv2]

I'm reading a book right now that says Cholly Atkins said he did it...but that was challenged....saying Paul Williams taught them that move.

It was Paul and Melvin originally that came up with the Policemen's "stop" gesture during that tour of the U.K. where they appeared on "Ready, Steady, Go"! Cholly, refined it by adding the finger snaps and the "funky four corners" type move you see them doing on "T.C.B."

[thisoldheart]

now fellow soulfuldetroiters: methinks you are straying too far off my very specific questions!! to answer one question someone asked in this thread, here are the credits from the just issued singles collection:

"track annotations and essays by george solomon ans andrew skurow, edited and revised from the original research and authorship by keith hughes and bill dahl for the complete motown single series."

try and stay on track experts. you are making this old head of mine spin!

[roger]

of course the size of England vs. the size of the U.S. means the #s could never be the same for gold or platinum,they obviously had to be adjusted;
as the lovely Cherry Vanilla once said, "Having a hit in England is like having a hit in New Jersey"[[I'm sure she meant in terms of size of the population)

Well Jimi .. having read about the "Obesity Epidemic" I suspect that the population in New Jersey is typically larger than that in England .. :)

Seriously though, I remember seing a news item in 1968/9 stating that the US population had just passed 200 Million .. at the time the UK population was just over 50 Million [[about 40 Million in England, about 6 million in Scotland, about 3 million in Wales and about one and a half million in Northern Ireland) .. so there were roughly four times as many people in the US as in the UK at that time .. so selling 250,000 in the UK in the mid/late '60s would be roughly equivelent to selling a Million in the US.

Roger

[roger]

thisoldheart, who ever wrote that got it wrong. The only "experts" are those that were at those recording sessions. There is a guy on Youtube that still swears that it was Carol Kaye playing on Stevie Wonder's " I Was Made To Love Her", even after those that were at the session confirmed that it was James Jamerson!

Indeed!! And even though the session details are well documented and even though the Deluxe CD issue of "Standing In the Shadows Of Motown" in 2004 included the backing track of "I Was Made To Love Her" as "JAMES JAMERSON's signature bass performance" there are still those who insist he didn't play on it. We certainly live in a bizarre world.

Roger

[roger]

now fellow soulfuldetroiters: methinks you are straying too far off my very specific questions!! to answer one question someone asked in this thread, here are the credits from the just issued singles collection:

"track annotations and essays by george solomon ans andrew skurow, edited and revised from the original research and authorship by keith hughes and bill dahl for the complete motown single series."

try and stay on track experts. you are making this old head of mine spin!

Well, thisoldheart .. I guess my last two posts were a bit "off topic" but I've just been checking the write up for the track in The Complete Motown Singles Volume 5 and it states the backing singers as Mary, Flo and [[Andante) Marlene Barrow.

It also has two mixes of the song .. the promo version issued to radio and the commercially available single .. though the exact differences between the two are not documented, and having given the two versions a casual listen I can't hear any obvious difference.

Hope your head isn't spinning too much now.

Roger

[florence]

Well Jimi .. having read about the "Obesity Epidemic" I suspect that the population in New Jersey is typically larger than that in England .. :)

Seriously though, I remember seing a news item in 1968/9 stating that the US population had just passed 200 Million .. at the time the UK population was just over 50 Million [[about 40 Million in England, about 6 million in Scotland, about 3 million in Wales and about one and a half million in Northern Ireland) .. so there were roughly four times as many people in the US as in the UK at that time .. so selling 250,000 in the UK in the mid/late '60s would be roughly equivelent to selling a Million in the US.

Roger

Estimate of Stop! In The Name Of Love in UK by Sireblogger of havenforum.co.uk - 175k approx.

[Jimi LaLumia]

which,for the UK, is a major hit..

[pj1]

now fellow soulfuldetroiters: methinks you are straying too far off my very specific questions!! to answer one question someone asked in this thread, here are the credits from the just issued singles collection:

"track annotations and essays by george solomon ans andrew skurow, edited and revised from the original research and authorship by keith hughes and bill dahl for the complete motown single series."

try and stay on track experts. you are making this old head of mine spin!

I hope that George or Andy will chime in here and clarify. It's likely that they've listened to the multi-tracks of the different versions and can say just who is on which version- the 2000 box set alternate, the single version, and [[the as yet unreleased) version 1 soon to appear on disc 2 of the Expanded Edition of More Hits.
As I don't have the 50th anniversary set, I've referenced TCMS Vol. 5, wherein it states that the track was recorded January 5,1965; Supremes recorded Jan 7 & 11, 1965.
There is definitely a 4 day difference between the 2 dates when vocals were recorded. The single was released relatively quickly on Feb 8, 1965.

[roger]

which,for the UK, is a major hit..

Indeed!! But roughly equivelent to a record selling around 700,000 copies in the US at that time if population differences are factored in.

There are three other things that immediately come to mind when trying to compare US snd UK sales in the '60s ..

Firstly, in the UK people didn't generally have as much disposable income as in the US. I believe that is still the case though the disparity is no where near as great as it was in the '60s. This meant that sales on "luxury" items like records were less. [[ Were records really "luxuries" .. I thought they were necessities .. :) )

Secondly, the UK is much more compact than the US .. England is approximately the same size as US States such as Illinois or Mississippi, and even when the other parts of the UK .. Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland .. are added in, the total area is still not quite as great as that of the State of Wyoming. This means that there aren't the same distribution issues as in the US and radio stations can cover a large portion of the country with one transmitter. This meant that a "hit" record tended to hit the entire country at the same time whereas in the US a record could be a Top 10 hit in [[say) Philadelphia but totally unknown in [[say) Chicago.

Thirdly, back in the '60s the UK population was a lot more homogenous than the US .. leaving aside obvious racial/ethnic differences we had no radio stations that had a non "mainstream" format .. no "Jazz" Radio, no "Country" radio, no "R&B" radio etc.

I suspect that these last two differences actually boosted sales of "hits" as there would be more consunsus amongst record buyers in the UK as to what was "In".

Back in the early '70s it was generally reckoned that with sales of 30,000 a record could be expected to get in the UK Top 40, though there were plenty of instances of records selling over 50,000 without managing to chart .. typically Reggae releases that sold heavily in London and amongst West-Indian communities .. or "Northern Soul" reissues that sold by the truckload in the North West of England and surrounding regions without creating much interest in London!! But then these "non charting" big sellers would get very little of the airplay that would have been necessary to break them nationally.

I've read that some of EVIE SAND's releases managed to sell about 200,000 copies in the New York/New Jersey/Connecticut area without managing to break into the national US charts as published by Billboard etc. so on that basis the idea of a "Hit" in England being roughly equivelent to having a "Hit" in New Jersey is not too much of an exaggeration!!

Roger

[marv2]

now fellow soulfuldetroiters: methinks you are straying too far off my very specific questions!! to answer one question someone asked in this thread, here are the credits from the just issued singles collection:

"track annotations and essays by george solomon ans andrew skurow, edited and revised from the original research and authorship by keith hughes and bill dahl for the complete motown single series."

try and stay on track experts. you are making this old head of mine spin!


Well aren't we done with this question by now? How much more can we beat it? LOL!

[kenneth]

Interesting to listen to the accapella track. The backgrounds definitely sound like the girls, you can hear Flo certainly though Mary is not so prominent, but that does end up giving it the usual sound as Mary was the light alto. However, the "oohs" at the beginning of the second and third verses definitely sound like different singers. They have an ethereal sound nothing like the Supremes and their recorded vocals, brief as they are, definitely sound "dropped in" to the mix. I've not a trained ear for these things, but that's my thought on the subject. I think the most prominent backgrounds are the girls, but there's a couple embellishments by the Andantes.

[luke]

Marv-many people have also made this mistake--listen very closely to Back In My Arms Again and you may hear Diana singing how can Marlene tell me what to do cause she lost her love so true and Lou she dont know cause the boy she loves is a romeo------------wishful thinking for people who hear Mary and Flo's names!!

[ejluther]

I assume the background vocals recorded on January 6th were the ones used on the Greatest Hits Japanese Quad album whereas the January 23rd date were the vocals used on the 45 and all releases after.
Is that because the backing vocals on the Quad LP are markedly different? I have a CD copy of that album that I'll have to dig out and check...

[juicefree20]

As far as scrubbing vocals from backgrounds, it wasn't something that was made common knowledge back then & for very obvious reasons. But whether scrubbing tracks or simply having others do vocals while omitting group members, this is a practice which has only come to light within the past 10 - 15 years.

I also agree with the statement about Milli Vanilli being unjustly punished once the jig was up, but with one qualifier...While the others whose vocals were scrubbed or simply sat it out while others sang their vocals, those artists still had to replicate those vocals LIVE in performance. That's why Milli Vanilli were so vilified. The reaction against them was due to people feeling as though they were trying to trick them. Had they gone on stage & actually SANG those parts, the backlash likely wouldn't have been so bad. Notice that no one protested when Henry Fambrough had to lip-synch the lines sang by Barbara Ingram on national TV because he actually sang those lines in live performances. He didn't lip-synch them when performing live. Milli Vanilli did & not merely for just a couple of lines in a 3 minute song, but did so for complete performances.

If everyone got up in arms over vocal lines not being sung by group members on actual recordings, but rather by others, recent revelations indicate that a whole lot of fans would be distressed by knowing that what they believed that they were hearing wasn't ALL of their favorite members recording live, but rather others singing on that Memorex.

[skooldem1]

I have always felt that with any "group" recording, it is always just the lead singer [[the identifiable voice) and then session singers in the back. When R&B Vocal groups were "in" in the 90's is when I started to really take notice of this practice. None of the groups sounded the same live. The Supremes however were more than a "stage" act as they were called earlier in this thread. They were all around entertainers. To even mention them in the same sentence as Milli Vanilli is insulting. The Supremes could sing- all of them- and they did on TV and in concert. They were a true vocal group.

[bradsupremes]

Is that because the backing vocals on the Quad LP are markedly different? I have a CD copy of that album that I'll have to dig out and check...

Yes, they are different background vocals. If you listen to the Quad LP and the single, you can easily tell the difference. They almost sounds like demo/scratch background vocals. It's the Andantes, but they aren't singing with the same power and emotion like they do on the single/album version. Plus there are spots in the song on the Quad LP version where they don't sing. It's possible that Quality Control wasn't satisfied with the first version of background vocals so they went back into the studio to recorded a new set.

[thisoldheart]

i do thank you all [[even those of you who love to stroll off on tangents)! what i am gathering by reading the entire thread is that their is no definate answer. nobody here was present during the recording, mixing, and various other stops "stop!" took on its way to the pressed 45 i bought oh so many years ago.

i do wanna say that i am relatively new to posting here, but have visited this site for a much longer time. i do so wish that when a person asks a very specific question, the return answers could at least try and stick to what people know about the question. one thing i find frustrating is all the battles between in this particular case are the off subject wars that flare up between the ross, wilson, and ballard contingencies.

i find the history of the process of how motown churned out such an amazing body of work in such a relatively short amount of time very interesting. i also get very excited when i hear new information that helps explain or fill in the details. history is continually being rewritten as new information comes forward. i hope none of us are afraid of a more accurate history of motown. we should be embracing all of the talented people that bought such a wonderful body of work to the world!!!

thanks gang, you and this site are amazing!

[skooldem1]

It's not the best quality, but here is someone spinning the 45 RPM of "Stop".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wknqW-YnQ2I

[kenneth]

i do wanna say that i am relatively new to posting here, but have visited this site for a much longer time. i do so wish that when a person asks a very specific question the return answers could at least try and stick to what they know about the question. one thing i find frustrating is all the battles between in this particular case the ross, wilson

I think you better not expect too much on either of those requests...especially that last one...!

[marv2]

Marv-many people have also made this mistake--listen very closely to Back In My Arms Again and you may hear Diana singing how can Marlene tell me what to do cause she lost her love so true and Lou she dont know cause the boy she loves is a romeo------------wishful thinking for people who hear Mary and Flo's names!!

Luke, thank you for that because I was never quite sure if she was singing "Mary" or "Marlene"! I always knew she was singing "Lou" because that was the fat chick that worked at the bakery down on Woodward Ave in the sixties that made the doughnuts and sang at Motown on the side.

[uptight]

Thisoldheart, you do understand how tame this thread it, right? LOL. I hope we can keep it this way [[knock on wood).

[marv2]

Here the girls are one more time singing it live on British television. They sound like the same voices on that acappella version posted earlier here:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JC-MDYopSoA

[milven]

That was live? There must have been a two second delay in the satellite feed from England to here cause the sound ain't in sync to their lips

[kenneth]

That was live? There must have been a two second delay in the satellite feed from England to here cause the sound ain't in sync to their lips

No, it's a result of the transfer to digital. It's fairly common when these old captures get placed into a digital format. The sound and image seem easy to get out of sync. I've always wondered if it's because the video source [[the original film or video) has some "hiccups" in it whereas the sound usually transfers in a smoother fashion. Maybe one of our video experts can tell us why.

[uptight]

Remember the early days of uploading clips to YouTube when viewers used to question whether a live singing performance was lip-sync'd because of this hiccup? It was common for the sync to drift when transferring analog videotapes to digital using consumer equipment. "She must be lip-sync'ing..." "No, she isn't...," the argument went. LOL

As distorted as the audio is, the Ready Steady Go clip does sound close to the record. Since they are singing live to track, you have to wonder if the studio background vocals were left intact on this backing track.

Also, distortion on R&B records with 1960s technology can be considered part of the Rock n Roll experience, but it makes it very difficult for even diehard fans to distinguish the voices. These voices can be either buried in the mix or faded in and out with each other, depending on how clever the engineers or producers wanted to be get with blending them.

[John Sands]

Speaking of alternate versions of Supremes tracks, the alternate versions of 'Stop in the Name of Love' and 'Love is Here and Now You're Gone' on the box set are actually earlier takes of Diana's vocal, and inferior to the released versions, and have the same background vocal track, or that's what it seems like to me. I'm assuming that what others refer to as the box set is the one that's pink. It's nice having the alternate takes but what po'd me was that the released versions were not included on the set.

Seems the same on the 'alternate' versiosn of 'Back in My Arms Again' and 'Can't Hurry Love' on 'Lost and Found' with a different Diana vocal but the same background tracks.

Am I correct that the basic instrumental track on 'It's All Your Fault' on 'Lost and Found' is the track used on 'Baby Love'?

[kenneth]

Speaking of alternate versions of Supremes tracks, the alternate versions of 'Stop in the Name of Love' and 'Love is Here and Now You're Gone' on the box set are actually earlier takes of Diana's vocal, and inferior to the released versions, and have the same background vocal track, or that's what it seems like to me. I'm assuming that what others refer to as the box set is the one that's pink. It's nice having the alternate takes but what po'd me was that the released versions were not included on the set.

I know! I hate when they do that. Alternates are fine as additional bonus tracks, or on a Lost & Found set because you're buying it for unreleased material, but when they replace the hit version with an inferior alternate like on the 2000 Box Set, it's maddening. I thought that version of "Stop!" on the box set vastly inferior to the released version and couldn't believe they left off the hit in favor of that version.

[Laurel]

I love Stop in the Name of Love. I remember back in the 60's me and my friends would sing into our hairbrushes and do the Stop move. It was so silly but so much fun! Did anyone else here do that?

[kenneth]

I love Stop in the Name of Love. I remember back in the 60's me and my friends would sing into our hairbrushes and do the Stop move. It was so silly but so much fun! Did anyone else here do that?

You can bet 99% of those on this site did that, and probably 50% of everyone else!!!

[Jimi LaLumia]

I STILL do!!!..aren't we supposed to?.........lol

[uptight]

I enjoyed the alternate versions included on the boxed set, even though "Stop!" was an earlier, rougher version. You can experience how the tune evolved. Boxed sets are rarely "greatest hits" packages. They are supposed to be more special, since there are plenty of "greatest hits"-type CDs available on the market already. How can you hate that..?

[kenneth]

I enjoyed the alternate versions included on the boxed set, even though "Stop!" was an earlier, rougher version. You can experience how the tune evolved. Boxed sets are rarely "greatest hits" packages. They are supposed to be more special, since there are plenty of "greatest hits"-type CDs available on the market already. How can you hate that..?

As a bonus track, it'd be fine. But as the only version on the set...no.

[ejluther]

I agree, uptight - it never bothered me because I already several copies of STOP!... on other CDs. I think of all box sets as being for just such a fan - in fact, I can't think of a single box set I have that doesn't do a similar thing by mixing in unreleased/live versions of familiar songs instead of the "real" version, etc. Of course, maybe there are box sets [[rather than "greatest hits" collections) out there like that and I just don't happen to own those. And while I can easily understand wanting the original/known version, too, I personally would rather have the one I don't have, than the one I do have multiple times. In a perfect world, I suppose you could have both but then the set itself would become pretty huge and even more expensive, I suppose. I really liked the bonus live disc that come with The Supremes Box Set that compiled live versions of the hits through the years and put them together. Maybe something like that would be a good template for a box set - a disc with the "regular" hits, and then a disc with different versions of all those same songs? Separate them rather than mixing them together? Of course, with digital technology you can easily make your own versions of CDs any which way you like so that's good...


And Ive always said Where did our Loove Go sounds like a duet with Diana and Mary!
In the new Singles Box Set the notes mention how Flo is heard much more distinctly on the German version of WDOLG...


and there you have it! That is Mary Wilson and Florence Ballard singing on that record as clear as day!
The problem with using the accapella version as proof is who know if those are the vocals from the single version [[the point of the original question on this thread)? Regardless, I just got the box set and listened to the track in question and it sure sounds like I can hear Flo & Mary in there but, then again, I always thought I could.

[huntergettingcaptured]

I figured it out myself just by listening to the background vocals. It always intrigued how some of the early background vocals for the Supremes, Vandellas, and Marvelettes sounded raw and distinctive, and then really polished as the years went on. At first, I just assumed that the voices became more mature as time went on. Then one day a light bulb went off, and I just realized it wasn't them.

The first place I remember seeing this in print was in Peter Benjaminson's book THE STORY OF MOTOWN from 1979. But I don't recall him calling the Andantes by name, only referring to them as anonymous background singers.


I had to laugh, a laugh of recognition, because you detail exactly the same thing I went through. I started collecting Motown records and albums and wondered why with the later recordings, the backing vocals sounded amazingly different. I thought, like you, "oh, the singers were maturing and their voices were just getting super polished!" Yeah, I had my "AH-HA" moment too later on as I learned more about "The Motown Way."

[brothadc]

Listening to the a capella mix of "Stop! In The Name Of Love" one can clearly hear that there are three people singing the background vocals. Those "ooos" on the second and third verses are three part harmony, and there's no way possible that just two people can sing three notes. Florence's voice can definitely be heard in all of the rest of the background parts, but I think the reason that Mary's voice is not as easily detected is because it isn't just Florence and Mary. Even though all of the other background parts are in unison, it does sound like more than two voices. Also, I'd be willing to bet that for that performance all of the vocals, the lead and the background vocals, were recorded at the same time and are all on one track. Usually on the karaoke versions on Motown's The Singing Machine, for every song there's a version with all of the music and all of the background vocals panned to the left channel and the lead vocal isolated and panned to the right channel, and a second version with a stereo mix of the music and background vocals with no lead vocal. For the karaoke versions of "Stop! In The Name Of Love", the first version is a mix with all of just the music panned to the left channel, and the same a capella mix posted on this thread with all of the vocals, lead and backgrounds, on the right channel. The second version is a hot mess! First of all, it isn't the original stereo mix of the music, but a half ass attempt of a stereo mix. The vibes, the sax, and the organ are slightly panned to the left and everything else isn't panned at all but is dead center. On the backgrounds in that mix, the only background vocals that don't include Diana are the ones in the intro where she didn't sing. There are no background vocals on the main parts of the verses. No "baby baby baby...", or "ah ah ah ah...". The "think it over[[s)" that close out the first and second verses were sampled from the end of one of the hooks and flown in, but each time they are out of sync. At the end of the first verse the "think it over[[s)" are clearly ahead of the beat and at the end of the second verse they are clearly behind the beat. The choruses after the first and second verses are the choruses that were sung in those spots with Diana singing lead over the backgrounds. The chorus after the third verse is actually the chorus after the second verse which was sampled then flown in repeatedly for the vamp, obviously because ordinarily on the vamp Diana beaks away from singing the hook with the backgrounds and begins doing her ad libs. Seems to me that all of the vocals [[as I mentioned) must have done in the same take and are all one track. Either that, or if they didn't all do it in the same take the vocals were at some point mixed down to one track and multi-tracks of the vocals no longer exist, which I find hard to believe. I've never ever heard the lead and background vocals of that performance separate from one another so it seems apparent that Diana, Mary, Florence, and at least one Andante recorded the song all at the same time and that's who's on the record.

[Jimi LaLumia]

OMG!...paragraphs,please...

[RossHolloway]

OMG!...paragraphs,please...

It's too early on Monday morning to laugh lol

[uptight]

OMG!...paragraphs,please...

I know, right? LOL

[blueskies]

OMG!...paragraphs,please...

Yea....thought I was reading War and Peace!

[smark21]

At what point did Motown start recording the backing vocals as a separate track? I wonder if Diana ever joined Mary and Flo [[and perhaps Andantes) on the backing vocals to beef up the sound? I recall in Mary's book Supreme Faith that Jean joined Mary and Cindy on the backing vocals of Up the Ladder to the Roof.

[franjoy56]

I totally agree about the third girl being used on Stop in the Name of Love, Flo and Mary are definetly there, I was also told Any Girl in Love was the Andantes, but I replied saying that I hear Florence Ballard on the refrain repsonses, so with reading this response I say thank you. Flo's voice is very easy to pick out it was so there: makes me cry sometimmmmes, and she was a major part of the Supremes vocals wihether the Andantes are ther or not. I am curious to know what songs Marlene Barrow sub for flo on in the studio.

I remember an interview that Mary did a while ago where she stated that their sound was never the same after Barbara left because with Barbara they could create the three part harmonies that sounded full. Right after Barbara left Diana was used in the background along with Flo and Mary. Also as mentioned above sometimes HDH sang with the group adding their vocals to Supremes and Vandellas tracks [[HDH is on the Vandellas "A Love Like Yours".) Having said all of this I'm pretty sure Florence is doing the top harmony with Mary on the middle harmony and a third singer on the bottom on "Stop". I always thought that the deep voice that I heard on "Stop" was Jackie Hicks and not Marlene as Jackie was always the deeper alto voice. Jackie's is the voice you hear on Junior Walkers "What Does It Take To Win Your Love". I hear a similar combination of voices on "Any Girl In Love" from The I hear A Symphony album. It was stated that it's the Andantes alone on the song but I'm hearing at least four voices with Florence being one of them. If you listen to Kim's version you get to hear the Andantes alone. It's interesting to to know what when on in the studio to produce a certain sound.