Re: 'Jimmy Mack'

[John Sands]

I had the 'Jimmy Mack' 45 in 1967 and bought the 'Watchout' album, eager to hear it in stereo but was surprised to find that it was a much different version. Much slower.

Awhile later I bought a Motown hits compilation and the version on that was the slow version from "Watchout' with a clapping track added to speed it up.

Not long after I purchased another hits album and the same slower version was on that and sped up with an ever faster clapping track.

I read that the 45 version was on the Anthology which I didn't buy but I finally heard the 45 version in stereo, an extended version, on a Vandellas hits cd.

I read somewhere that the faster version was recorded in England when the group was on tour and they did it on a show and the demand for it was so great. Any truth in that and if so maybe the master for it was in England thus the slower versions were used in US compilations?

Thanks for listening.

[bradburger]

Welcome to the forum John.

To my knowledge, there were 3 versions of Jimmy Mack released, and cut nowhere but Detroit.

First was the version used for the 45 - Gordy G 7058 A or TMG 599 A in the UK.

The second was in stereo and is an alternate take that was used on the 'Watchout' L.P which is what you describe as "the slow version".

The third version was the same take as the version on the 'Watchout' L.P but with footstomps added, and appeared on 'A Collection Of 16 Big Hits' Volume 8' IIRC.

A true stereo mix of the take used for the 45 was not available until Tom Moulton did a mix for the Shout records 'Motown Box', although there were actually some unofficial ones done by those who had bought the Motown Singing Machine Karaoke CD's before that. :D

Hope this helps.

Cheers

Paul

P.S. Forgot about the Spanish version which used the same backing track as the 'Watchout' version.

[nabob]

I read somewhere that the faster version was recorded in England when the group was on tour and they did it on a show and the demand for it was so great. Any truth in that and if so maybe the master for it was in England thus the slower versions were used in US compilations?A few years back [2005], a box set of extended mixes was released in conjunction with a US Public Broadcasting System fund raising show highlighting Motown. A stereo version of Jimmy Mack was mixed from the original masters for that project. What was heard in the UK may have also come from the original master. Who knows? A friend of mine in Switzerland once purchased a CD that had many re-recorded songs by Motown and other R&B artists. Is there a possibility that this could have been the case?

[jobeterob]

I have always wondered a similar question about the song Up The Ladder to the Roof; is the 45 single version available anywhere? The 45 that I played in 1970.........I don't believe I have ever heard that version again. Or am I wrong about this?

[John Sands]

thanks for the reply. Bradburger. Thanks for your informative reply. The 16 Hits collection had the album version with an added footstomping/handclapping track which was on the beat of that version. There was definately another version of the album track with a track added but it was to the speeded up 45 version, which was obviously to make it sound like the other version, which makes me wonder why they didn't just use the 45 version. Maybe it was too much trouble to mix it in stereo.

Another question is was the 45 version the one that was supposedly recorded in 1964 but held back and if so why was it rerecorded for Watchout? Wondered about this for years.

Thanks.



Thanks

[BayouMotownMan]

The stereo jazzy version of Jimmy Mack to my memory is the original. When Berry Gordy unearthed it, he said it was a hit but needed to be re-worked. Martha was brought in for the vocal and Brian Holland added the footstomps.

A while back, and I don't remember who it was, perhaps Ralph himself, remembered walking into the snakepit and seeing Brian Holland with headsets on ferociously stomping on plywood on the tiled floor. He figured Brian had finally lost his mind. This went on to become the hit version of Jimmy Mack.

Actually the footstomps are similar to Where Did Our Love Go. Starts out 4/4 with 2/4 after the bass comes in. I never tire of the hit version of Jimmy Mack.

[John Sands]

so the 45 version is basically the same track as the Watchout version with new Martha vocal plus overdubs?

[BayouMotownMan]

Well that depends on which version of Watchout you are referring to. The stereo version has the original jazz mix. The mono version has the re-recorded hit single version.

[bradburger]

so the 45 version is basically the same track as the Watchout version with new Martha vocal plus overdubs?

No, they are two different recordings both recorded in 1964.

I don't have The Complete Motown Singles 1967, so don't have access to the session dates [[they are not in the 'Live Wire' set or 'Hitsville USA' box), so perhaps someone with this set can post them.

A quick check on the excellent Don't Forget The Motorcity [[http://www.dftmc.info/) says version 2 [LP], the 'Watchout' version, was completed on 18th June 1964, whilst version 3 [[yes, 3!), the 45 version, says completed at Hitsville Golden World on 17th January 1967.

I suppose this was most likely the footsomp overdubs.

What is interesting and is a bit of a puzzle is the DM or Duplicate Master number that's on the 45 [[V-091125).

This is how the DM codes where up to about mid 1964 IIRC, only using the mix engineers code followed by the tape reel number and position of the cut on the tape. In this case, V was Brian Hollands code letter, indicating he mixed this version.

But if the original 3 track master was bumped up to 8 track for the footstomp overdubs [[which the stereo instrumental mix on the Singing Machine Karaoke disc, & and the subsequent Tom Moulton mix sounds like it was), then a new mix would have to be created, possibly by another engineer, and therefore, I would have thought used the new DM system of producer, recording engineer, and mix engineer, [[and by that time), whether the mix was mono or stereo?

As always though, nothing was ever that simple or straight forward with Motown!

Cheers

Paul

[bradburger]

For a sanity check, here are short samples of the released versions: -

45 Mix

http://www.zshare.net/audio/94983304378b52ce/

'Watchout' version

http://www.zshare.net/audio/94983381521f944a/

'A Collection Of 16 Big Hits' version

http://www.zshare.net/audio/94983421cc4da254/

Interesting that the vocals are panned to the right on this mix.

Cheers

Paul

[BayouMotownMan]

When I first met Martha Reeves about 20 years ago I asked her about the two versions and why they were so different. She just shrugged her shoulders and said, "Producers perogative. I recorded many songs several different ways." Roz Ashford was with her on that date and didn't remember doing Jimmy Mack more than once. I am inclined to believe the backing vocals were only done once.

[reese]

When I first met Martha Reeves about 20 years ago I asked her about the two versions and why they were so different. She just shrugged her shoulders and said, "Producers perogative. I recorded many songs several different ways." Roz Ashford was with her on that date and didn't remember doing Jimmy Mack more than once. I am inclined to believe the backing vocals were only done once.

To me, it sounds as if the hit version vs the album version were done in different keys, so the backgrounds would have had to be redone as well. Perhaps Roz doesn't remember, as they must have done thousands of sessions. Or maybe one set of bakground vocals were electronicially altered to reflect the key change.

[motown_david]

Both Annette and Roz have told me they only ever did one bv session for this song. They both greceive royalites for Jimmy Mack. This was Annette's last recording session, as she was 6 months pregnant with her son at the time.

[Motown Eddie]

No, they are two different recordings both recorded in 1964.

I don't have The Complete Motown Singles 1967, so don't have access to the session dates [[they are not in the 'Live Wire' set or 'Hitsville USA' box), so perhaps someone with this set can post them.


I've got The Complete Motown Singles-1967 and the recording dates for "Jimmy Mack" are;
March 2, 1964 [[original recording) - recut March 25, 1964 and June 18, 1964 - miscellaneous overdubs for the single version added to the March 2, 1964 recording on January 17, 1967.

And according to the notes for "Jimmy Mack" from TCMS-1967, the reason that it finally saw the light of day in February, 1967 is because it was originally recorded as a potential follow up to "In My Lonely Room" in 1964 but got bumped in favor of "Dancing In The Street". By 1967, Martha Reeves was upset that Motown wasn't giving her enough attention so B.G. ordered all of the songs that she recorded out of the vaults and upon hearing "Jimmy Mack" told the company to "get this record out immediately" and scolded Billie Jean Brown [[head of Motown's quality control) for keeping "Jimmy Mack" in the vaults.

[Motown Eddie]

I had the 'Jimmy Mack' 45 in 1967 and bought the 'Watchout' album, eager to hear it in stereo but was surprised to find that it was a much different version. Much slower.

Awhile later I bought a Motown hits compilation and the version on that was the slow version from "Watchout' with a clapping track added to speed it up.

Not long after I purchased another hits album and the same slower version was on that and sped up with an ever faster clapping track.

I read that the 45 version was on the Anthology which I didn't buy but I finally heard the 45 version in stereo, an extended version, on a Vandellas hits cd.

I read somewhere that the faster version was recorded in England when the group was on tour and they did it on a show and the demand for it was so great. Any truth in that and if so maybe the master for it was in England thus the slower versions were used in US compilations?

Thanks for listening.

As someone who remembers when Martha & the Vandellas classic "Jimmy Mack" was a hit record back early 1967, I've always hated the different versions of "Jimmy Mack" in stereo on the Watchout! and Collection of 16 Big Hits-Vol, 8 LPs [[since they are remakes of the first version of the track that was released as a single in 67). The orginal single version of "Jimmy Mack" would remain in mono only until the release of The Motown Box offered a stereo version in 2005.

[marv2]

Both Annette and Roz have told me they only ever did one bv session for this song. They both greceive royalites for Jimmy Mack. This was Annette's last recording session, as she was 6 months pregnant with her son at the time.

Now that's right Motown_david. Jimmy Mack was Annette's last recording with the group even though it was released as a single several years after Betty Kelly was in the group.

[bradsupremes]

I forgot where I heard it, but I thought that the January 17, 1967 recording date was the Andantes vocals being added to the track.