Supremes sales figures

[luke]

I have no idea if accurate but I wonder about sales figures for Liverpool and My World is Empty on first view. http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/77079

[Jimi LaLumia]

Interesting..are these cumulative figures as of a certain date after several decades had passed[[combined vinyl, cassette, cd?)

[ajk93]

These have come up so many times. Some figures are very believable to me, but others seem
oddly low.

Luke: I feel that judging the chart rankings of both Liverpool and My World, the figures seem accurate.
When comparing them to other major hit albums/singles, it seems like a logical ratio. I know chart
success does not however always mean major sales.

This always fascinates me---Motown's sales. For an act as big as The Supremes [[2nd only to The Beatles),
who had 12 number one singles, countless TV appearences, and a diverse fan base, their sales must be
well above the numbers shown. I would suspect that by comparing them to other acts, their sales to be
easily at 250 Million worldwide. That puts them fairly close to an act like ABBA or Mariah Carey. Current
artist's sales are much higher. But at a quarter of a billion [[1/4 of The Beatles or Elvis) and just ahead of
The Stones [[200 Million), I feel that would be fairly accurate. They never appear on best selling artist lists, in
fact the only time I believe I saw a figure mentioned in an article it stated 20 Million worldwide sales. And this
was not too long ago!

[Jimi LaLumia]

thanks to Gordy not using the RIAA in the 60s and 70s, most likely to avoid showing what was and wasn't actually selling;those certifications were great PR tools for boosting a group's image in the industry and with the public

[jobeterob]

I have some Soundscan figures from Diana Ross that have been posted on here a couple of times. I can post them again if new people would like.

Thanks for posting this Luke. It would be very interesting to know where the figures came from.

Some of them seem a little high to me; sales figures peaked in the 1990's but were much lower in the 1960's and 1970's and have fallen dramatically in recent years.

It was fairly well documented at Motown that Diana Ross and the Supremes Join the Temptations outsold TCB ~ and I believe that fact was repeated in some of the recent reissues.

Rick/BayouMan has interesting opinions based on his knowledge about this subject; maybe he will post.

The Supremes were commonly thought to have sold about 50 million records and Diana's advertising routinely says she has sold more than 100 million records ~ I assume that incorporates the Supremes total.

[copley]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_girl_groups

[redlabs]

in the 60s ,many record companies did not use RIAA,[even RCA] that showcased Elvis Presley. why would a record company need anothe rco to do an audit when they probably had in house people to do it already. over the years in bacame common practice to use RIAA. i have no doubt the Supremes sold millions.

[Jimi LaLumia]

because it added to hype and prestige, which is obviously what has hurt Motown stars in that regard; MJ's enitre 80's career,let's face it, was based on RIAA certifications that were trumpeted all over the media; an 'independant' outside certification/award always adds a luster and believablity that the label awarding to itself never does..and that's why the 'smart money' used the RIAA[[and vice versa)..Gordy was long term foolish in this regard

[luke]

Good points ajk-I think that 20 million was for albums only. These figure come out to roughly 64 million, not counting 70s Supremes sales or more recent cd compilations. I hope Mary and Diana are getting accurate accountings!! PS Does anyone know what sales were for the 2000 Supremes box set?

[redlabs]

mary had stated at one point in the 80s she and diana were getting 100,000 in royalties per year. if i remember correctly.

[BayouMotownMan]

Those numbers are surely cumulative figures, but I don't know what of. There is no way that My World sold that many records. It was more like 500,000 copies. Motown's auditing back then was purely manual and mistakes abounded. There was no Soundscan then.

[redlabs]

just an after thought, remember rock and roll was young then [1956] and motown started in 1959. it may seem strange but motown was just starting out as many record compnies were and i am sure knowing what we or BG knows now ,he probably would have used RIAA. but you know what they say about hindsight. it easy to say they should have now. but that was 50 years ago.

[luke]

So to provide people with proper royalties just who keeps accurate sales figures now?

[Jimi LaLumia]

as a teenage fan, I would read of The Beatles and The Stones getting their RIAA certs, it was a very big hoopla deal; by the time The Supremes were riding high, Gordy could have done this, but he didn't,and it's everyone's loss now..

[redlabs]

agreed Jim. it does make it official doesnt it. have to loook up RIAA whan they started.

[RossHolloway]

I remember watching a tv piece about Motown from around 1965 that stated their annual sales were 10 million dollars. That's a lot of records.

Another point to consider is maybe Berry Gordy didn't want outside interest in his companys business. Didn't Motown pay the artist and writers/producers based off of sales figures? So if they weren't really asking for specific numbers, who does it benefit to say a record sold 500,000 copies when it really sold 1.5Million copies? Think about it...

[Jimi LaLumia]

I have and I'm sure many of the artists have as well

[ajk93]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_girl_groups

There's that 20 Million I was refering to. NO WAY do I believe that! 29 studio albums would equate
to sales of less than 700,000 WORLDWIDE on average if you use the 20,000,000.

[jobeterob]

Luke, the record company provides the figures to the artist. Motown myth has it that these are the figures that pissed off Diana Ross and caused her to leave Motown; and also Jean Terrell and Gladys Knight. Maybe all 3 thought they were being lied to.

But the RIAA business was all a sham too; both Whitney Houston and Michael Jackson had albums that shipped 5 million and returned 4.5 of them.

Sadly, I think the truth about Motown record sales are that perhaps Berry knows; and perhaps no one knows anymore. Berry won't know after 1986.

There was always a fear that Motown wasn't selling anything like it was thought to be selling; and that sales of some of the other groups were very small compared to the Supremes.

I heard an interview with Jerry Wexler where he said Aretha Franklin was more of a turntable artist and "artist's artist" rather than a sales artist; he said there was only one Platinum album.........the Gospel Album.

Randy said Mary and Diana were making $85,000 a year on royalties in the 80's. I bet they are not making $10,000 a year from the sale of Supremes songs these days.

[jobeterob]

Title Year to Date Retail to Date

14 Greatest Hits 11 16916
Aint No Mtn. High Enough 38 5138
All The Great Love Songs 49 49
All The Great Hits 44908 268132
All The Great Love Songs 66 5914
Anthology 971 73708
Anthology: Best of 25 51
Baby It's Me 5 346
Best Years of My Life - Single 5 9103
Bottom Line - Single 0 2
Boss 49 5650
Diana Extended 38 38
Diana's Duets 17 3559
Diana Ross 338 6148
Diana 432 7573
Diana/Boss 0 839
Diana Ross Live 894 78918
Diana Extended/The Remixes 1211 68931
Eaten Alive 79 79
Eaten Alive 33 1449
Endless Love 99 1726
Evening With 514 11663
Force Behind the Power 168 98695
Forever Diana 802 70159
Gone - Single 13 4805
Greatest Hits Live 136 136
Greatest Hits The RCA Years 3132 11247
Greatest Hits 212 83270
Hits of - Volume 1 22 275
Hits of 6 511
I Will Survive - Import - Single 3 1536
If You're Not Gonna Love Me Right - Single 0 40
Live At Caesar's Palace 144 7760
Love Hangover 89 - Single 0 62
One Woman - The Ultimate Collection 30622 196712
Red Hot Rhythm & Blues 10 685
Ross 0 242
Silk Electric 60 60
Silk Electric 11 1906
Surrender 0 312
Surrender/Ain't No Mtn. High Enough 1 469
Swept Away 8 8728
Take Me Higher - Single 45 37855
Take Me Higher 2783 101684
This House - Single 0 67
Touch Me In The Morning 164 4871
Touch Me In The Morning/Baby It's Me 0 606
Visions of Love - Video 0 0
Visions of Love - Video 6 69
Visions of Diana Ross - Video 94 3755
Voice of Love 33 33
Voice of the Heart -Single 62 6725
Waiting in the Wings - Single 0 903
Why Do Fools Fall In Love 5 5
When You Tell Me That You Love Me 0 16906
Why Do Fools Fall In Love 1168 7477
Workin Overtime 49 3238
You're Gonna Love It - Single 0 4137

Total Albums 89204 1,155,368

Total Singles 128 82141

Total Music Video 100 3824

All references are to albums/cds unless otherwise stated.

I know there are some duplications but that's the way the report was.

[jobeterob]

Someone was looking for a Soundscan report; here is one from October 18, 1998, listing sales for the year to date and retail to date, which would be from 1991 when Soundscan was started. And remember, Soundscan is just a sample.

[gordy_hunk]

Jobeterob gave a lengthy list, but I haven't a clue what it means.

For example:

All The Great Hits 44908 268132
When You Tell Me That You Love Me 0 16906

Total Albums 89204 1,155,368

If as the heading suggests title [[all the great hits), year to date [[44908?) and retail to date [[268132 - copies actually sold), but then I become confused, so does this list suggest that the total albums sold by Diana Ross since 1970 is just over 1 million? [[I assume that this must be just for the USA and doesn't include anywhere else). Surely even in the USA she has sold over a million albums in 41 years of being a solo performer? What does the 89204 mean?

[jobeterob]

The list, I believe, says:

The year to date was the year 1998, up to October.

And the retail to date means that from 1991 to October, 1998, the Soundscan sample totalled that amount.

It was USA only. And it was those 7 years only; and it is the Soundscan sample only.

So, it did mean from 1991 to 1998, Soundscan recorded 268,132 copies of All the Great Hits being sold and that 44,908 of those were sold in 1998.

[florence]

Thanks for the Soundscan figures, jobeterob.

Make interesting reading.

[florence]

I have no idea if accurate but I wonder about sales figures for Liverpool and My World is Empty on first view. http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/77079

Ah - the eternal question: what were Diana and The Supremes' record sales?

If there's one thing in my life I'd love to know this is it!!

Any information from Motown in the 60s and 70s is probably gone now and with the lax accounting and bookkeeping plus the failure to make Certification claims for many years it's impossible to know with any degree of certainty.

There have been many and varied claims including the one above. I personally believe those figures are grossly over-inflated but I have no proof.

The ones made by J> Randy Taraborrelli in his 1989 biography on Diana are massively lower than these but for me have a whiff of accuracy - but who knows?

Anyway, here are links to estimates of album sales for Diana and The Supremes including duets and collaborations made by mjdangerous of havenforum.co.uk.

I believe they are pretty accurate but again you cannot be 100% sure - they certainly make interesting reading


Diana breakdown: http://fanofmusic.free.fr/ajax.php?m=Charts&s=BestSellers&p=BestSellers&Act=52
The Supremes: http://fanofmusic.free.fr/ajax.php?m=Charts&s=BestSellers&p=BestSellers&Act=212

Under the picture, you can click on radio button "Including related Albums" then on "OK" just under, to reach all collaboration albums as well [[for example the Supremes & the Four Tops).

[florence]

It was fairly well documented at Motown that Diana Ross and the Supremes Join the Temptations outsold TCB ~ and I believe that fact was repeated in some of the recent reissues.

Hmmmm.................in the list of estimates which I just posted mjd has TCB at higher sales in the US than Join.

Can you remember where you got that info from, jobeterobe?

[RossHolloway]

I'm not sure I can really believe those figures...

[marv2]

Luke, the record company provides the figures to the artist. Motown myth has it that these are the figures that pissed off Diana Ross and caused her to leave Motown; and also Jean Terrell and Gladys Knight. Maybe all 3 thought they were being lied to.

But the RIAA business was all a sham too; both Whitney Houston and Michael Jackson had albums that shipped 5 million and returned 4.5 of them.

Sadly, I think the truth about Motown record sales are that perhaps Berry knows; and perhaps no one knows anymore. Berry won't know after 1986.

There was always a fear that Motown wasn't selling anything like it was thought to be selling; and that sales of some of the other groups were very small compared to the Supremes.

I heard an interview with Jerry Wexler where he said Aretha Franklin was more of a turntable artist and "artist's artist" rather than a sales artist; he said there was only one Platinum album.........the Gospel Album.

Randy said Mary and Diana were making $85,000 a year on royalties in the 80's. I bet they are not making $10,000 a year from the sale of Supremes songs these days.


Aretha said that and she was ONLY referring to her Columbia Records years. She was as hit record selling artist from there on in..........from the time she signed with Atlantic Records. Randy was wrong with his statement of royalties paid in the 80's. It was quite better than that as I have heard from the horse's mouths.........

[luke]

But the artists can bring in outsiders for an independent accounting. Correct?

[Jimi LaLumia]

not at Motown....the deck of cards was rigged

[marv2]

But the artists can bring in outsiders for an independent accounting. Correct?

Yes they could, but then they ran the very real risk of finding themselves without a recording contract. I wonder if things are better now for the artists that can sell their product direct?

[jobeterob]

I agree, not at Motown was their any independant accounting.......not other than by Court Order and I don't believe there was ever a file where it actually occurred. And yes, all those records are heaven knows where now and access is probably very restricted.

I think in the liner notes to the Deluxe Edition, it may say Join the Temptations outsold TCB.

But somebody like Barney Ales or Mike Roshkind says they would see the sales figures come in each week and Join the Temptations outsold TCB but TCB got the higher chart numbers.

I don't really think the figures listed here are accurate but I don't think Randy's figures were either; Randy dropped almost all his sales figures for his redone book from a couple years back - his autobiography of Diana Ross; I suspect he realized his figures were suspect.

[jobeterob]

Thanks Florence for those lists; those lists look as accurate as any I've seen.

But it does show TCB ahead of Join the Tempts and it seems a little low for I Love You.

But generally, 60's sales weren't up there with later decades.

Well done finding that.

[jobeterob]

Diana Ross




Filter Albums Solo Albums only
Including related Albums
--------------------------------------- Sales minimum - none Albums over 500,000 Albums over 1,000,000 Albums over 2,000,000 Albums over 5,000,000 Albums over 10,000,000
---------------------------------------

The Supremes
Meet The Supremes 1962 Type Studio Album
Langage English
America
US 100,000 Rank AT #1734
Europe
Europe 100,000 Rank AT #1328
- UK 40,000 Rank AT #1164
World
World 250,000 Rank AT #3146

The Supremes
A Bit Of Liverpool 1964 Type Studio Album
Langage English
America
US 175,000 Rank AT #1578
World
World 250,000 Rank AT #3147

The Supremes
Where Did Our Love Go 1964 Type Studio Album
Langage English
America
US 1,000,000 Rank AT #881
Europe
Europe 200,000 Rank AT #1130
- Germany 75,000 Rank AT #686
World
World 1,400,000 Rank AT #1987

The Supremes
We Remember Sam Cooke 1965 Type Cover
Langage English
America
US 90,000 Rank AT #1767
World
World 100,000 Rank AT #3469

The Supremes
Supremes Live At The Copa 1965 Type Live
Langage English
America
US 500,000 Rank AT #1210
World
World 650,000 Rank AT #2596

The Supremes
More Hits By The Supremes 1965 Type Studio Album
Langage English
America
US 400,000 Rank AT #1285
World
World 550,000 Rank AT #2709

The Supremes
The Supremes Sing Country Western & Pop 1965 Type Cover
Langage English
America
US 40,000 Rank AT #1828
World
World 50,000 Rank AT #3514

The Supremes
I Hear A Symphony 1965 Type Studio Album
Langage English
America
US 600,000 Rank AT #1126
World
World 750,000 Rank AT #2490

The Supremes
Merry Christmas 1965 Type Holiday
Langage English
America
US 1,000,000 Rank AT #882
World
World 1,400,000 Rank AT #1988

The Supremes
Supremes A' Go-Go 1966 Type Studio Album
Langage English
America
US 1,000,000 Rank AT #883
Europe
Europe 120,000 Rank AT #1280
- UK 60,000 Rank AT #1059
World
World 1,300,000 Rank AT #2065

The Supremes
Supremes Sing Rodgers And Hart 1967 Type Studio Album
Langage English
America
US 250,000 Rank AT #1455
Europe
Europe 80,000 Rank AT #1370
- UK 40,000 Rank AT #1165
World
World 350,000 Rank AT #2975

Diana Ross & The Supremes
Diana Ross & The Supremes Greatest Hits 1967 Type Compilation
Langage English
America
US 3,500,000 Rank AT #261
Europe
Europe 1,200,000 Rank AT #486
- UK 600,000 Rank AT #295
World
World 5,600,000 Rank AT #661

The Supremes
Supremes Sing Holland-Dozier-Holland 1967 Type Studio Album
Langage English
America
US 400,000 Rank AT #1286
Europe
Europe 100,000 Rank AT #1329
- UK 50,000 Rank AT #1116
World
World 550,000 Rank AT #2710

[jobeterob]

Diana Ross & The Supremes & The Temptations
TCB 1968 Type Duets
Langage English
America
US 950,000 Rank AT #904
Canada 75,000 Rank AT #802
Europe
Europe 160,000 Rank AT #1188
- UK 100,000 Rank AT #943
World
World 1,300,000 Rank AT #2066

Diana Ross & The Supremes & The Temptations
Diana Ross & The Supremes Join The Temptations 1968 Type Duets
Langage English
America
US 750,000 Rank AT #1010
Canada 60,000 Rank AT #847
Europe
Europe 320,000 Rank AT #941
- UK 225,000 Rank AT #600
World
World 1,200,000 Rank AT #2135

Diana Ross & The Supremes
Live At London's Talk Of The Town 1968 Type Live
Langage English
America
US 250,000 Rank AT #1456
Europe
Europe 180,000 Rank AT #1163
- UK 100,000 Rank AT #942
World
World 500,000 Rank AT #2811

Diana Ross & The Supremes
Love Child 1968 Type Studio Album
Langage English
America
US 400,000 Rank AT #1287
Canada 50,000 Rank AT #902
Europe
Europe 100,000 Rank AT #1330
- UK 50,000 Rank AT #1117
World
World 600,000 Rank AT #2679

Diana Ross & The Supremes
Sing & Perform Funny Girl 1968 Type Cover
Langage English
America
US 80,000 Rank AT #1773
World
World 100,000 Rank AT #3470

Diana Ross & The Supremes
Reflections 1968 Type Studio Album
Langage English
America
US 300,000 Rank AT #1394
Europe
Europe 50,000 Rank AT #1434
- UK 20,000 Rank AT #1279
World
World 400,000 Rank AT #2943

Diana Ross & The Supremes & The Temptations
Together 1969 Type Duets
Langage English
America
US 300,000 Rank AT #1395
Canada 25,000 Rank AT #1004
Europe
Europe 70,000 Rank AT #1383
- UK 40,000 Rank AT #1166
World
World 450,000 Rank AT #2843

Diana Ross & The Supremes
Cream Of The Crop 1969 Type Studio Album
Langage English
America
US 300,000 Rank AT #1396
Canada 25,000 Rank AT #1005
Europe
Europe 70,000 Rank AT #1384
- UK 40,000 Rank AT #1167
World
World 450,000 Rank AT #2844

Diana Ross & The Supremes
Let The Sunshine In 1969 Type Studio Album
Langage English
America
US 250,000 Rank AT #1457
Canada 20,000 Rank AT #1029
World
World 350,000 Rank AT #2976

Diana Ross & The Supremes & The Temptations
On Broadway 1969 Type Duets
Langage English
America
US 300,000 Rank AT #1397
World
World 400,000 Rank AT #2944

Diana Ross
Everything Is Everything 1970 Type Studio Album
Langage English
America
US 350,000 Rank AT #1327
Canada 25,000 Rank AT #999
Europe
Europe 100,000 Rank AT #1325
- UK 50,000 Rank AT #1111
World
World 550,000 Rank AT #2691

Diana Ross & The Supremes
Greatest Hits Vol III 1970 Type Compilation
Langage English
America
US 1,500,000 Rank AT #623
Canada 125,000 Rank AT #610
World
World 2,000,000 Rank AT #1608

Diana Ross

[jobeterob]

Diana Ross
Diana Ross 1970 Type Studio Album
Langage English
America
US 700,000 Rank AT #1061
Canada 60,000 Rank AT #846
Europe
Europe 160,000 Rank AT #1185
- UK 75,000 Rank AT #1014
World
World 1,100,000 Rank AT #2159

Diana Ross & The Supremes
Farewell 1970 Type Live
Langage English
America
US 300,000 Rank AT #1398
Canada 40,000 Rank AT #938
World
World 400,000 Rank AT #2945

Diana Ross
Surrender 1971 Type Studio Album
Langage English
America
US 400,000 Rank AT #1283
Canada 40,000 Rank AT #935
Europe
Europe 80,000 Rank AT #1369
- UK 40,000 Rank AT #1160
World
World 600,000 Rank AT #2615

Diana Ross
Diana! 1971 Type Soundtrack
Langage English
Europe
Europe 200,000 Rank AT #1126
- UK 150,000 Rank AT #777
World
World 200,000 Rank AT #3185

Diana Ross
I'm Still Waiting 1971 Type Compilation
Langage English
America
US 250,000 Rank AT #1454
Canada 25,000 Rank AT #1000
World
World 350,000 Rank AT #2960

Diana Ross
Lady Sings The Blues 1972 Type Soundtrack
Langage English
America
US 2,000,000 Rank AT #483
Canada 150,000 Rank AT #556
Oceania
Australia 35,000 Rank AT #679
Europe
Europe 450,000 Rank AT #830
- UK 200,000 Rank AT #669
- Spain 75,000 Rank AT #347
World
World 2,900,000 Rank AT #1240

Diana Ross
Greatest Hits 1972 Type Compilation
Langage English
Europe
Europe 300,000 Rank AT #980
- UK 250,000 Rank AT #581
World
World 300,000 Rank AT #3000

Diana Ross
Touch Me In The Morning 1973 Type Studio Album
Langage English
America
US 1,300,000 Rank AT #722
Canada 120,000 Rank AT #623
Asia
Japan 50,000 Rank AT #698
Oceania
Australia 20,000 Rank AT #770
Europe
Europe 450,000 Rank AT #831
- UK 320,000 Rank AT #488
World
World 2,100,000 Rank AT #1525

Diana Ross
Last Time I Saw Him 1973 Type Studio Album
Langage English
America
US 350,000 Rank AT #1328
Canada 25,000 Rank AT #1002
Asia
Japan 60,000 Rank AT #673
Oceania
Australia 5,000 Rank AT #885
Europe
Europe 50,000 Rank AT #1429
- UK 25,000 Rank AT #1249
World
World 550,000 Rank AT #2690

Diana Ross & Marvin Gaye
Together At Last / Diana And Marvin 1973 Type Duets
Langage English
America
US 1,000,000 Rank AT #878
Canada 25,000 Rank AT #1001
Oceania
Australia 20,000 Rank AT #764
Europe
Europe 600,000 Rank AT #732
- UK 425,000 Rank AT #397
World
World 1,800,000 Rank AT #1657

Diana Ross
Diana Ross Live At Caesars Palace 1974 Type Live
Langage English
America
US 450,000 Rank AT #1239
Canada 50,000 Rank AT #898
Oceania
Australia 5,000 Rank AT #878
Europe
Europe 180,000 Rank AT #1161
- UK 75,000 Rank AT #1015
World
World 700,000 Rank AT #2506

Diana Ross & The Supremes

[jobeterob]

Diana Ross & The Supremes
Anthology 1974 Type Compilation
Langage English
America
US 800,000 Rank AT #995
World
World 1,200,000 Rank AT #2136

Diana Ross
Best Collection 1974 Type Compilation
Langage English
Asia
Japan 75,000 Rank AT #637
World
World 100,000 Rank AT #3424

Diana Ross
Mahogany 1975 Type Soundtrack
Langage English
America
US 900,000 Rank AT #939
Canada 100,000 Rank AT #710
Europe
Europe 450,000 Rank AT #832
- UK 50,000 Rank AT #1112
- Italy 150,000 Rank AT #308
- Netherland 50,000 Rank AT #432
World
World 1,600,000 Rank AT #1780

Diana Ross
Diana Ross' Greatest Hits 1976 Type Compilation
Langage English
America
US 1,500,000 Rank AT #622
Canada 175,000 Rank AT #479
Oceania
Australia 100,000 Rank AT #379
Europe
Europe 950,000 Rank AT #568
- UK 550,000 Rank AT #315
World
World 3,100,000 Rank AT #1186

Diana Ross
Diana Ross 1976 Type Studio Album
Langage English
America
US 1,600,000 Rank AT #584
Canada 175,000 Rank AT #478
Asia
Japan 100,000 Rank AT #538
Oceania
Australia 25,000 Rank AT #733
Europe
Europe 810,000 Rank AT #615
- UK 260,000 Rank AT #545
- France 80,000 Rank AT #576
- Sweden 25,000 Rank AT #542
- Netherland 100,000 Rank AT #260
World
World 3,000,000 Rank AT #1216

Diana Ross
Baby It's Me 1977 Type Studio Album
Langage English
America
US 700,000 Rank AT #1062
Canada 75,000 Rank AT #800
Oceania
Australia 5,000 Rank AT #872
Europe
Europe 160,000 Rank AT #1187
- UK 100,000 Rank AT #938
World
World 1,000,000 Rank AT #2246

The Supremes
20 Golden Greats 1977 Type Compilation
Langage English
Europe
Europe 1,350,000 Rank AT #449
- UK 1,150,000 Rank AT #153
World
World 1,400,000 Rank AT #1989

Diana Ross
An Evening With Diana Ross 1977 Type Live
Langage English
America
US 400,000 Rank AT #1284
Canada 40,000 Rank AT #936
Europe
Europe 160,000 Rank AT #1186
- UK 100,000 Rank AT #937
World
World 650,000 Rank AT #2580

[jobeterob]

Diana Ross
Ross 1978 Type Studio Album
Langage English
America
US 350,000 Rank AT #1329
Canada 30,000 Rank AT #976
Asia
Japan 30,000 Rank AT #807
Oceania
Australia 5,000 Rank AT #871
Europe
Europe 150,000 Rank AT #1224
- UK 50,000 Rank AT #1113
World
World 600,000 Rank AT #2614

The Supremes
At Their Best 1978 Type Compilation
Langage English
America
US 250,000 Rank AT #1459
World
World 400,000 Rank AT #2947

Diana Ross
The Wiz 1978 Type Soundtrack
Langage English
America
US 850,000 Rank AT #959
Canada 50,000 Rank AT #899
World
World 1,000,000 Rank AT #2245

Diana Ross
The Boss 1979 Type Studio Album
Langage English
America
US 1,000,000 Rank AT #879
Canada 50,000 Rank AT #900
Asia
Japan 20,000 Rank AT #834
Europe
Europe 150,000 Rank AT #1225
- UK 40,000 Rank AT #1161
- Sweden 5,000 Rank AT #698
World
World 1,300,000 Rank AT #2013

Diana Ross
20 Golden Greatest 1979 Type Compilation
Langage English
Oceania
New Zealand 20,000 Rank AT #375
Europe
Europe 1,380,000 Rank AT #440
- UK 600,000 Rank AT #293
- Germany 300,000 Rank AT #310
- Netherland 160,000 Rank AT #134
World
World 1,500,000 Rank AT #1898

Diana Ross
Diana 1980 Type Studio Album
Langage English
America
US 2,400,000 Rank AT #418
Canada 160,000 Rank AT #491
Asia
Japan 200,000 Rank AT #386
Oceania
Australia 70,000 Rank AT #529
Europe
Europe 2,070,000 Rank AT #287
- UK 275,000 Rank AT #538
- France 250,000 Rank AT #270
- Germany 300,000 Rank AT #312
- Italy 225,000 Rank AT #199
- Sweden 175,000 Rank AT #73
- Netherland 90,000 Rank AT #288
- Austria 25,000 Rank AT #317
World
World 5,200,000 Rank AT #712

Diana Ross
To Love Again 1981 Type Compilation
Langage English
America
US 500,000 Rank AT #1207
Asia
Japan 40,000 Rank AT #740
Oceania
Australia 5,000 Rank AT #870
Europe
Europe 240,000 Rank AT #1059
- UK 75,000 Rank AT #1017
- Germany 40,000 Rank AT #802
- Sweden 10,000 Rank AT #657
- Netherland 15,000 Rank AT #691
World
World 900,000 Rank AT #2381

Diana Ross
Why Do Fools Fall In Love 1981 Type Studio Album
Langage English
America
US 1,400,000 Rank AT #666
Canada 80,000 Rank AT #753
Asia
Japan 150,000 Rank AT #424
Oceania
Australia 20,000 Rank AT #774
Europe
Europe 880,000 Rank AT #594
- UK 275,000 Rank AT #539
- Sweden 90,000 Rank AT #194
- Netherland 130,000 Rank AT #177
- Finland 30,000 Rank AT #130
World
World 2,900,000 Rank AT #1262

[jobeterob]

Diana Ross & Lionel Richie
Endless Love 1981 Type Soundtrack
Langage English
America
US 1,000,000 Rank AT #880
Canada 75,000 Rank AT #801
Europe
Europe 100,000 Rank AT #1326
- UK 75,000 Rank AT #1016
World
World 1,300,000 Rank AT #2056

Diana Ross
All The Great Hits 1981 Type Compilation
Langage English
America
US 2,000,000 Rank AT #484
Canada 150,000 Rank AT #557
Europe
Europe 950,000 Rank AT #569
- UK 450,000 Rank AT #388
- Italy 100,000 Rank AT #433
- Netherland 45,000 Rank AT #466
World
World 3,600,000 Rank AT #1062

Diana Ross
Silk Electric 1982 Type Studio Album
Langage English
America
US 750,000 Rank AT #1009
Canada 50,000 Rank AT #901
Asia
Japan 50,000 Rank AT #684
Oceania
Australia 5,000 Rank AT #868
Europe
Europe 450,000 Rank AT #833
- UK 100,000 Rank AT #939
- Spain 60,000 Rank AT #371
- Sweden 75,000 Rank AT #236
- Netherland 25,000 Rank AT #573
World
World 1,500,000 Rank AT #1904

Diana Ross
Love Songs 1982 Type Compilation
Langage English
Europe
Europe 750,000 Rank AT #650
- UK 500,000 Rank AT #347
- Netherland 65,000 Rank AT #370
- Switzerland 25,000 Rank AT #441
World
World 800,000 Rank AT #2475

Diana Ross
Diana's Duets 1982 Type Compilation
Langage English
Europe
Europe 140,000 Rank AT #1245
- UK 100,000 Rank AT #940
World
World 150,000 Rank AT #3378

Diana Ross
Ross 1983 Type Studio Album
Langage English
America
US 350,000 Rank AT #1330
Canada 20,000 Rank AT #1028
Asia
Japan 70,000 Rank AT #651
Oceania
Australia 5,000 Rank AT #866
Europe
Europe 300,000 Rank AT #981
- UK 50,000 Rank AT #1114
- Germany 60,000 Rank AT #712
- Sweden 50,000 Rank AT #362
- Netherland 15,000 Rank AT #692
World
World 900,000 Rank AT #2380

Diana Ross
Diana Ross Anthology 1983 Type Compilation
Langage English
America
US 500,000 Rank AT #1208
Canada 30,000 Rank AT #977
Europe
Europe 150,000 Rank AT #1226
- UK 60,000 Rank AT #1057
World
World 800,000 Rank AT #2474

Diana Ross
Swept Away 1984 Type Studio Album
Langage English
America
US 950,000 Rank AT #903
Canada 80,000 Rank AT #754
Asia
Japan 70,000 Rank AT #646
Oceania
Australia 5,000 Rank AT #873
Europe
Europe 420,000 Rank AT #854
- UK 50,000 Rank AT #1115
- Germany 100,000 Rank AT #628
- Sweden 30,000 Rank AT #502
- Netherland 25,000 Rank AT #578
- Switzerland 20,000 Rank AT #455
- Austria 10,000 Rank AT #486
World
World 1,700,000 Rank AT #1763

Diana Ross
Portrait 1984 Type Compilation
Langage English
Oceania
Australia 10,000 Rank AT #855
Europe
Europe 400,000 Rank AT #877
- UK 300,000 Rank AT #522
World
World 450,000 Rank AT #2842

Diana Ross
Eaten Alive 1985 Type Studio Album
Langage English
America
US 450,000 Rank AT #1240
Canada 40,000 Rank AT #937
Asia
Japan 70,000 Rank AT #645
Oceania
Australia 50,000 Rank AT #613
Europe
Europe 660,000 Rank AT #689
- UK 150,000 Rank AT #778
- Germany 125,000 Rank AT #548
- Italy 80,000 Rank AT #447
- Sweden 60,000 Rank AT #283
- Netherland 20,000 Rank AT #681
- Switzerland 25,000 Rank AT #430
- Austria 15,000 Rank AT #463
World
World 1,500,000 Rank AT #1903

Diana Ross & The Supremes
Great Songs & Performances, 25th Anniversary 1986 Type Compilation
Langage English
America
US 800,000 Rank AT #996
World
World 1,000,000 Rank AT #2300

Diana Ross & Michael Jackson & Stevie Wonder & Gladys Knight
Their Very Best Back To Back 1986 Type Compilation
Langage English
Europe
Europe 150,000 Rank AT #1205
- UK 125,000 Rank AT #836
World
World 150,000 Rank AT #3336

Diana Ross & Michael Jackson
Love Songs 1987 Type Compilation
Langage English
Oceania
Australia 10,000 Rank AT #851
Europe
Europe 700,000 Rank AT #667
- UK 545,000 Rank AT #317
World
World 800,000 Rank AT #2454

Diana Ross
Red Hot Rhythm & Blues 1987 Type Studio Album
Langage English
America
US 280,000 Rank AT #1406
Canada 25,000 Rank AT #1003
Asia
Japan 40,000 Rank AT #749
Europe
Europe 170,000 Rank AT #1172
- UK 40,000 Rank AT #1162
- Germany 35,000 Rank AT #812
- Sweden 15,000 Rank AT #614
- Netherland 10,000 Rank AT #747
- Switzerland 10,000 Rank AT #538
World
World 600,000 Rank AT #2678

The Supremes
Love Supreme 1988 Type Compilation
Langage English
Europe
Europe 200,000 Rank AT #1131
- UK 150,000 Rank AT #782
World
World 200,000 Rank AT #3298

Diana Ross
Workin' Overtime 1989 Type Studio Album
Langage English
America
US 120,000 Rank AT #1672
Canada 10,000 Rank AT #1068
Asia
Japan 20,000 Rank AT #836
Oceania
Australia 5,000 Rank AT #874
Europe
Europe 200,000 Rank AT #1127
- UK 80,000 Rank AT #989
- Germany 30,000 Rank AT #823
- Sweden 15,000 Rank AT #612
- Netherland 10,000 Rank AT #759
World
World 400,000 Rank AT #2941

Diana Ross
Greatest Hits Live 1989 Type Compilation
Langage English
Europe
Europe 230,000 Rank AT #1064
- UK 150,000 Rank AT #779
- Netherland 20,000 Rank AT #669
World
World 400,000 Rank AT #294

[jobeterob]

Diana Ross
The Force Behind The Power 1991 Type Studio Album
Langage English
America
US 125,000 Rank AT #1663
Asia
Japan 200,000 Rank AT #385
Europe
Europe 760,000 Rank AT #644
- UK 600,000 Rank AT #294
- Sweden 10,000 Rank AT #642
- Netherland 30,000 Rank AT #553
- Switzerland 5,000 Rank AT #605
World
World 1,400,000 Rank AT #1986

Diana Ross
Motown's Greatest Hits 1992 Type Compilation
Langage English
Europe
Europe 400,000 Rank AT #878
- UK 175,000 Rank AT #704
- Italy 60,000 Rank AT #514
World
World 500,000 Rank AT #2810

Diana Ross
That's Why I Call You My Friend 1992 Type Compilation
Langage English
Asia
Japan 100,000 Rank AT #532
World
World 100,000 Rank AT #3465

Diana Ross
Live, Stolen Moments 1993 Type Live
Langage English
America
US 100,000 Rank AT #1730
Asia
Japan 25,000 Rank AT #824
Europe
Europe 50,000 Rank AT #1431
- UK 30,000 Rank AT #1202
World
World 200,000 Rank AT #3289

Diana Ross & Placido Domingo & Jose Carreras
Christmas In Vienna 1993 Type Live
Langage English
America
US 150,000 Rank AT #1621
Europe
Europe 920,000 Rank AT #578
- UK 60,000 Rank AT #1058
- France 50,000 Rank AT #708
- Germany 350,000 Rank AT #253
- Sweden 50,000 Rank AT #356
- Netherland 40,000 Rank AT #492
- Switzerland 30,000 Rank AT #366
- Austria 55,000 Rank AT #150
World
World 1,300,000 Rank AT #2064

Diana Ross
All The Great Love Songs 1993 Type Compilation
Langage English
America
US 10,000 Rank AT #1842
Europe
Europe 50,000 Rank AT #1430
- UK 30,000 Rank AT #1201
World
World 100,000 Rank AT #3463

Diana Ross
One Woman ? Ultimate Collection 1993 Type Compilation
Langage English
Asia
Japan 150,000 Rank AT #426
Europe
Europe 2,680,000 Rank AT #210
- UK 1,650,000 Rank AT #88
- France 350,000 Rank AT #179
- Germany 125,000 Rank AT #558
- Spain 75,000 Rank AT #354
- Netherland 50,000 Rank AT #420
World
World 3,100,000 Rank AT #1206

Diana Ross
Forever Diana: Musical Memories 1993 Type Compilation
Langage English
America
US 100,000 Rank AT #1729
World
World 100,000 Rank AT #3464

Diana Ross
A Very Special Selection 1994 Type Holiday
Langage English
Asia
Japan 50,000 Rank AT #691
Europe
Europe 200,000 Rank AT #1128
- UK 150,000 Rank AT #780
- Netherland 5,000 Rank AT #829
World
World 300,000 Rank AT #3093

Diana Ross
Diana Extended - The Remixes 1994 Type Remix
Langage English
America
US 100,000 Rank AT #1731
Europe
Europe 70,000 Rank AT #1382
- UK 30,000 Rank AT #1203
World
World 200,000 Rank AT #3290

Diana Ross
Take Me Higher 1995 Type Studio Album
Langage English
America
US 150,000 Rank AT #1622
Asia
Japan 80,000 Rank AT #600
Europe
Europe 200,000 Rank AT #1129
- UK 70,000 Rank AT #1037
- Germany 50,000 Rank AT #773
- Netherland 10,000 Rank AT #757
- Austria 5,000 Rank AT #563
World
World 400,000 Rank AT #2942

Diana Ross
Voice Of Love 1996 Type Compilation
Langage English
Asia
Japan 30,000 Rank AT #789
Europe
Europe 180,000 Rank AT #1162
- UK 150,000 Rank AT #781
World
World 250,000 Rank AT #3145

Diana Ross
A Gift Of Love 1997 Type Compilation
Langage English
Asia
Japan 75,000 Rank AT #634
World
World 100,000 Rank AT #3466

Diana Ross
You Keep Me Hanging On 1997 Type Compilation
Langage English
Europe
Europe 130,000 Rank AT #1253
- UK 100,000 Rank AT #941
World
World 200,000 Rank AT #3291

The Supremes
40 Golden Motown Greats 1998 Type Compilation
Langage English
Europe
Europe 200,000 Rank AT #1132
- UK 150,000 Rank AT #783
World
World 200,000 Rank AT #3299

Diana Ross
Every Day Is A New Day 1999 Type Studio Album
Langage English
America
US 100,000 Rank AT #1732
Asia
Japan 20,000 Rank AT #837
Europe
Europe 60,000 Rank AT #1407
- UK 40,000 Rank AT #1163
World
World 200,000 Rank AT #3292

Diana Ross
Love And Life, Very Best 2001 Type Compilation
Langage English
America
Brazil 10,000 Rank AT #287
Asia
Japan 100,000 Rank AT #541
Europe
Europe 450,000 Rank AT #834
- UK 200,000 Rank AT #670
- France 75,000 Rank AT #606
- Sweden 20,000 Rank AT #562
World
World 650,000 Rank AT #2595

Diana Ross & The Supremes
The No 1's 2004 Type Compilation
Langage English
America
US 500,000 Rank AT #1209
Europe
Europe 350,000 Rank AT #917
- UK 220,000 Rank AT #607
World
World 1,000,000 Rank AT #2299

Diana Ross
Blue 2006 Type Bootleg
Langage English
America
US 50,000 Rank AT #1808
Brazil 2,000 Rank AT #337
World
World 100,000 Rank AT #3467

Diana Ross
I Love You 2006 Type Studio Album
Langage English
America
US 100,000 Rank AT #1733
Brazil 3,500 Rank AT #327
Europe
Europe 40,000 Rank AT #1452
- UK 20,000 Rank AT #1278
- France 3,000 Rank AT #880
- Italy 4,000 Rank AT #786
- Netherland 2,000 Rank AT #850
World
World 200,000 Rank AT #3293

Diana Ross
Love From... 2006 Type Compilation
Langage English
Europe
Europe 50,000 Rank AT #1432
- UK 30,000 Rank AT #1204
World
World 50,000 Rank AT #3513

Diana Ross
The Definitive Collection 2007 Type Compilation
Langage English
America
US 80,000 Rank AT #1772
Europe
Europe 90,000 Rank AT #1353
- Netherland 20,000 Rank AT #649
World
World 200,000 Rank AT #3294

Diana Ross & The Supremes
Love Is In Our Hearts - The Love Collection 2007 Type Compilation
Langage English
Europe
Europe 100,000 Rank AT #1327
- UK 30,000 Rank AT #1205
World
World 150,000 Rank AT #3379

Diana Ross & The Supremes
The Definitive Collection 2009 Type Compilation
Langage English
America
US 50,000 Rank AT #1809
Europe
Europe 50,000 Rank AT #1433
- Italy 2,000 Rank AT #795
World
World 100,000 Rank AT #3468

Sales of additional minor releases 4,000,000

Diana Ross - Worldwide total sales 89,700,000

[Jimi LaLumia]

have NO idea what any of the above means, how to read it...but thanks for sharing...lol[[rank?..World?)

[marv2]

have NO idea what any of the above means, how to read it...but thanks for sharing...lol[[rank?..World?)

hehehheehhehehe......HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! LOL!

[jobeterob]

Diana Ross
All The Great Hits 1981 Type Compilation
Langage English
America
US 2,000,000 Rank AT #484
Canada 150,000 Rank AT #557
Europe
Europe 950,000 Rank AT #569
- UK 450,000 Rank AT #388
- Italy 100,000 Rank AT #433
- Netherland 45,000 Rank AT #466
World
World 3,600,000 Rank AT #1062

As an example, the above is the sales for All The Great Hits; they say it sold 2 Million copies in the USA, 150,000 in Canada, 950,000 in Europe [[composed of 450,000 in the UK, 100,000 in Italy, 45,000 in the Netherlands) for an approximate total of 3,600,000 sales.

Now whether of not this is all somewhat accurate is another matter.

[Jimi LaLumia]

gotcha..thanks..I should have been able to figure that out...and that's since the day of release, or only since the Soundscan era?

[motony]

I knew a guy in the 70's that worked at Schwartz Bros. Distributors in the D.C. area , in the 60's and he said Motown 45's outsold others by far & he said that didn't even count the bootlegs[[ones pressed & sold on the side,off the books).

[jobeterob]

Don't know where these figures came from; they are from the website referred to us by Florence.

[florence]

Don't know where these figures came from; they are from the website referred to us by Florence.

This is a site by mjdangerous, a French guy who compiles album sales figures using info from all round the world.

As far as the UK market is concerned his figures seem pretty realistic. He has for example included amounts for Club sales a phenomena in the UK in the 80s and 90s whose figures would not be reflected in the charts but obviously in shipments. These music clubs sold significant amounts of albums particularly for MOR artists which although officially classed as R&B/Soul, Diana would more or less be regarded as in the UK.

Sometimes the chart performance at first glance wouldn't appear to match the sales but for example an album even at the bottom of the UK charts during Nov/Dec could shift tens of thousnads of copies.

All The Great Hits for example in 1981 never got higher than #21 but it was over Christmas and it spent another 6 months in the lower regions of the chart - at 3 or 4k a week those all add up. Obviouslt when a record is released it could ship massively and then many copies could be returned but when an albun like this gets certified Platinum a few years after it is released it is pretty certain id did sell those copies.

Baby It's Me is another album which looks to have high estimates for the UK since it never even charted but again it was in the top 200 albums in the monthly charts in the UK in Oct/Nov/Dec 1977 and in December those would be good sales. The album had shipped 86k by the end of the year buty then there could have been returns.

On the whole I believe his figures for the UK are pretty good and on that basis I think those for other markets probably are too.

But then again who knows? I think the one thing we can all agree on for Diana and The Supremes is that it is almost impossible to be sure of the correct figures for their sales

[jobeterob]

These figures are as reasonable as any I've seen.

It also shows where record companies keep releasing more compilations, more Greatest Hits packages.

[copley]

Thanks Florence for those lists; those lists look as accurate as any I've seen.

But it does show TCB ahead of Join the Tempts and it seems a little low for I Love You.

But generally, 60's sales weren't up there with later decades.

Well done finding that.

I've just had a look at the figures and as far as the UK sales go the figures are total rubbish. I have no idea who put them together or what their source was but it's way over what the actual sales would have been! 'Ross '78' sold 50k and it never even charted! I don't think so. 'Silk Electric' peaked at #33 and sold 100K!!! If that was the case it would been at #1. The US figures are not much better. 'I'm Still Waiting' managed to sell 250k which amazing considering it was never issued there! I would not put any credence on this site at all!

[florence]

I've just had a look at the figures and as far as the UK sales go the figures are total rubbish. I have no idea who put them together or what their source was but it's way over what the actual sales would have been! 'Ross '78' sold 50k and it never even charted! I don't think so. 'Silk Electric' peaked at #33 and sold 100K!!! If that was the case it would been at #1. The US figures are not much better. 'I'm Still Waiting' managed to sell 250k which amazing considering it was never issued there! I would not put any credence on this site at all!

I can't say these figures are accurate although they seem reasonable based on the fact that the UK figures DO seem to add up.

Just how much do you know about the UK market?

I don't know a lot but I have seen some EMI figures.

Albums in the chart over Christmas can sell significant amounts in the lower regions of the charts, also Diana sold a lot of albums through Music Clubs in the UK where sales were never counted towards the charts.

Whatever the chart position [[#33) Silk Electric released October 1982 was in the lower half of the chart over the Christmas period. Documentation from EMI show that at the end of March 1983 they had sold 98,000 copies [[although the total for March was NIL!).

Baby It's Me didn't even make the official chart in the UK but interestingly in Oct, Nov and Dec 1977 it was in the monthly top 200 [[compiled for the Industry). In Nov and Dec that would be a reasonably significant amount. At the end of the year EMI had sold 86,462 copies.

Many of Diana's albums in the UK were released near the Christmas period and her hits compilation albums always sold steadily even after they had left the chart. In the 80s particularly several of these are to be found in the yearly top 1000 despite not having charted.

I wrote to mjdnagerous about the I'm Still Waiting anomoly and there is an error there caused by the album being retitled for the UK market. It has to be fixed.

I don't believe the UK figures are that far out.

[helga]

I doubt these are true sales figures. If anything, they indicate how many copies were shipped to the record stores, but not how many copies were purchased by consumers.

[jobeterob]

Well, thanks Florence for the site; as others have said, who knows. Anything is possible. We all know chart position doesn't often mean alot. Christmas sales do mean something. Shipments don't mean they all sold.

[copley]

Florence, we are going to have to agree to disagree over these figures which have no bearing in reality whatsoever. I know a lot about the UK market as I live there and have followed sales trends/charts since the late '60's. I can't prove it but then neither can it be disproved - 'Silk Electric' has not sold 100K in the UK. It's not just Supremes & Diana Ross figures that are inaccurate, figures for many other artists that I looked at are also way out! I've showed this to friends in the business and their reaction was to laugh. The compiler needs to back up these figures with accurate sources otherwise they are totally meaning less.

[Strange]

Having looked at that site too Copley it certainly seems to be the figment of someone's wildest imaginations!

The more recent estimates might be better as they seem to be in-line with the official figures we can all access but few of us bother to tally [[at least for so many acts). But the historical information just has to be complete guesses, and certainly without any explanation as to the method or reasoning it is no more than a great read/good laugh depending on your view of the totals given.

It would be good to get the author to defend it though as I don't like to knock so much work out-of-hand.

[Bokiluis]

This seems about right in my understanding. Record companies often had to give away a good number of albums/singles to the record retail chains to offset the costs of advertising and promotion. So say for example, Tower Records ran a national ad for the "Love Child" album, most likely, labels gave the wholesale costs of product to pay for those ads. So if it costs $25k to run national ads on the "Love Child" album, Motown would give them $25k worth of "Love Child" albums to pay for it. Those copies, known as "free goods", could not be calculated for royalties because they were free. So often, those records would sell thousands more than what the RIAA figures were. It was customary for most labels to do business that way. But it was also one of the reasons why Motown probably didn't like RIAA reps looking into their accounting practices. But understand, that was how most of the labels paid for advertising or at least supplemented ad costs with these goods.

[Strange]

What you say about free copies is true enough Bokiluis, but the RIAA allow them to be counted in the shipments that go towards the certification level.

Quite simply the old sales figures given for the Supremes on here [[and on that Fan of Music site generally that Florence linked to), are far too high. Common sense tells us that and so too does the reality of what sold best at the time - the Beatles and Elvis. They have been subjected to plenty of audits and sales trawls that show million selling singles were not easy to come by even in the States, nevermind multi-million sellers.

And for whatever reason, the Motown sound didn't really transfer into mega-sales overseas and would have represented 20% of the US total at best [[except for the odd exception) in the sixties.