An extended tape of Michael Jackson rambling incoherently was played in court.

[Roberta75]

Terribly tragic and very disturbing. What a shame.

http://www.tmz.com/videos/0_06dasz11

[smark21]

Even at 50 years old he's still going on about how he had no childhood. I wonder if anyone in his life ever told him to stop whining and get over it and that there were plenty of children who had harder childhoods than he did and manage to get on with their lives? Michael must have been really boring and tedious to be around sometimes.

[Roberta75]

Even at 50 years old he's still going on about how he had no childhood. I wonder if anyone in his life ever told him to stop whining and get over it and that there were plenty of children who had harder childhoods than he did and manage to get on with their lives? Michael must have been really boring and tedious to be around sometimes.

People who are high on drugs usually are boring and tedious.

[RossHolloway]

A better question is why was the doctor recording Michael and did Michael know he was being recorded while under the influence of the doctors medicine?

[jobeterob]

Dr. Murray is another example of the bad kind of people that addicts surround themselves with. He was doing this for money; he knew he had an addict of the worst kind on his hands and he was trying to cover his ass with the recordings. Now they've come back to bite him. What a sordid affair. This is going to be interesting watching the defence try and tear this apart.

I wonder if Conrad Murray has already turned over whatever assets he had to his lawyer for fees! I hope so because he doesn't deserve a penny.

Michael Jackson had an unimaginably tragic last few years; it's amazing that he marries Elvis Presley's daughter in some kind of sham marriage and then proceeds to have a life even worse than Elvis.

This is so tragic. I hope none of the rest of the Jacksons are living this way.

[Roberta75]

Dr. Murray is another example of the bad kind of people that addicts surround themselves with. He was doing this for money; he knew he had an addict of the worst kind on his hands and he was trying to cover his ass with the recordings. Now they've come back to bite him. What a sordid affair. This is going to be interesting watching the defence try and tear this apart.

I wonder if Conrad Murray has already turned over whatever assets he had to his lawyer for fees! I hope so because he doesn't deserve a penny.

Michael Jackson had an unimaginably tragic last few years; it's amazing that he marries Elvis Presley's daughter in some kind of sham marriage and then proceeds to have a life even worse than Elvis.

This is so tragic. I hope none of the rest of the Jacksons are living this way.

Very true jobeterob but if it wasn't Dr. Murray it would have been some other unethical, greedy, star struck doctor. The sad thing is Michael Jackson has probably been "doctor shopping" for decades to feed his habit.

[jobeterob]

You are very right; I bet you he never serves a day in jail whether he is convicted or not.

The real problem is that he was dealing with an addict and he did not have the common sense required to say "I'm not getting mixed up with this no matter who this guy is."

[BayouMotownMan]

Although I think Dr. Murray is negligent, I feel MJ's family was even more negligent. They all knew something was going on, his mother at least should have gotten a court order to protect her son. It can be done.

As far as the other Jackson's being as messed-up as Michael, in their own ways they are. Success came too soon and too young for them. They were very, very sheltered in Gary, IN, and had an abusive father. They were not emotionally prepared to handle all of this. Their education levels are virtually non-existent. One magazine printed a written note in the 90s that Michael had sent them and it was very revelatory as to his level of competance. Jermaine's new book in audio form is being read by his son. I couldn't help but wonder if Jermaine actually could read it himself. You know he had a slew of ghost-writers.

But whatever the cost they paid, they were the best of the best when they performed together. It was always magic, but little Michael made them what they are.

[BobC]

But Rick--Jermaine was just on TV two nights ago saying MJ wasn't a drug addict. Maybe Michael was just over-tired on these tapes and needed a little nap-time. And maybe those 40-50 prescription drug bottles, half of which I've never even heard of, above MJ's bed were for someone else.

Uhg. When I heard that tape, and learned that MJ was peeing uncontrollably while under sedation from Propofol, any last speck of mercy I might have had for Conrad Murray evaporated. He is a murderer, as far as I am concerned. MJ had disowned most of his family, with the exception of Janet and Katherine, decades ago. They had no control over Michael--Michael didn't listen to anybody. While I agree that the Jackson are all messed up in their own ways, I have it on very good authority that Janet and Katherine BOTH tried to hold an intervention with Michael but MJ got word of it and took off. Nobody could find him. He was moving around all over the world, dodging creditors and lawyers wanting to serve him papers.

It will be interesting to see where Elizabeth Taylor plays into all this.

[BayouMotownMan]

I won't say Murray is a murderer. Opportunistic and careless? Yes. That alone should strip him of treating any further patients. I don't think he intended to kill MJ. I think he got distracted from doing a procedure he shouldn't have been allowed to do in the first place. It was far too risky.

Jermaine has denied that Michael is a drug addict and has denied that Michael is eccentric. Michael Jackson and any connection to him meant money to his siblings [[except for Janet). I don't doubt that Jermaine loved Michael but I am sure there were jealousy issues. Jermaine halfway got a solo career started, the others couldn't get decent record deals. Have you heard LaToya "sing?" It will make you a Yoko Ono fan

[skooldem1]

How can Jermaine say Michael wasn't an addict? Didn't Janet and Katherine say they staged an intervention? Didn't Michael himself say he had a problem and was seeking help in the 90's?

[BobC]

Well we part ways here. I agree he was both careless and opportunistic, and I don't believe for a second he meant to kill Michael [[although his siblings will allege this to try to extort money out of all the people surrounding MJ at the time)--but the degree of carelessness here goes far beyond the pale. If you repeatedly get behind the wheel drunk, get several DWI's, and then run somebody down, it is vehicular homicide. If you repeatedly into bar fights and finally kill somebody, you can be charged with second degree murder. Now in Murray's case the prosecutors were afraid they couldn't prove second degree murder, so they went for manslaughter--but putting that sheer amount of Propofol into MJ's system over and over again, along with 40-50 other sedatives on various occasions, is to me, no different than putting a bullet in his head.

[Roberta75]

But Rick--Jermaine was just on TV two nights ago saying MJ wasn't a drug addict. Maybe Michael was just over-tired on these tapes and needed a little nap-time. And maybe those 40-50 prescription drug bottles, half of which I've never even heard of, above MJ's bed were for someone else.

Uhg. When I heard that tape, and learned that MJ was peeing uncontrollably while under sedation from Propofol, any last speck of mercy I might have had for Conrad Murray evaporated. He is a murderer, as far as I am concerned. MJ had disowned most of his family, with the exception of Janet and Katherine, decades ago. They had no control over Michael--Michael didn't listen to anybody. While I agree that the Jackson are all messed up in their own ways, I have it on very good authority that Janet and Katherine BOTH tried to hold an intervention with Michael but MJ got word of it and took off. Nobody could find him. He was moving around all over the world, dodging creditors and lawyers wanting to serve him papers.

It will be interesting to see where Elizabeth Taylor plays into all this.

Elizabeth Taylor has passed on so I don't see her name being relevant to to his case. Miss Taylor may have introduced Michael Jackson to Dr. Arnold Klein who was allegedly over prescribing prescription drugs to Mr. Jackson but the judge has clearly stated the only doctor on trial in this case is Conrad Murray. Besides you can lead a horse to water but you can't force it to drink.

Dr. Murray did not murder Michael Jackson. Murray was greedy, sloppy and unethical but he didn't deliberately kill him IMO.

Michael played Russian roulette with drugs for decades and the final spin proved to be fatal.

[BobC]

Murder does not have to be deliberate.

[BobC]

PS: I never said anything about Elizabeth or any other doctors being charged. I am just wondering if it will ever come out about how she figures into all this mess. ET went to MJ's rescue during his first bout with drugs, but she was also the one, as you said, who introduced MJ to Klein the candy man. And Klein was a big enabler to both of them.

[BayouMotownMan]

Bob I am not excusing Dr. Murray, he should go to jail. I am hoping for that. I especially don't buy his defense that Michael injected the propofil himself when Murray stepped out of the room. That ludicrous. And if that DID happen, again, he shouldn't have left Michael at all.

I think the intervention attempt happened in the 90s. Of late, Michael distanced his family so much that nobody knew what was going on in detail, but they, as Jermaine has said, knew something was wrong. They have said he was in the hands of wrong doers. They should have done more.

I don't see Taylor factoring into this either. She has been in declining health herself for years. She too likely didn't know the extent of MJs drug usage. I feel, from the evidence I've heard SO FAR, that the propofil didn't come into play until just before his death. And did you see the amount of that stuff the doctor ordered? Enough the kill entire families. I guess they were planning to tour with this stuff.

It's still incredibly sad

[BobC]

I hear ya. And yes, I saw how much Propofol he ordered--which is why I feel this case rises beyond manslaughter and into second or third degree murder territory.

I can see I have not been clear about what I'm interested in regarding Taylor. What I mean is this--it has come to light that Klein prescribed tons of prescriptions to MJ under false names, and for years, Taylor was getting her drugs through him too. Both Taylor and Michael lied through their teeth many times--saying they were never addicted, or kicked the drugs when they had not. I can't believe Klein has not been charged with anything yet--and when and if he is, I want to know the REAL story about Klein and Taylor bringing MJ to him. Sorry--but I am a little jaded and don't believe for a second that it had to do with skin conditions. I didn't mean to give the impression that Taylor had anything to do with Propofol and Murray. Sometimes my posting doesn't keep up with what's in my brain.

[BayouMotownMan]

Bob I think MJs addiction to pain medication began after the Pepsi commercial when his hair caught fire. The burns were significant and the reconstruction of his scalp quite painful. Those close to MJ said he never took medications of any kind before that. Jehovah Witnesses are pretty tough about booze and pills.

To me the curious thing is the Lisa Marie connection. When he kissed her onstage at that awards ceremony it was so staged that it was comical.

[jobeterob]

The trouble with suggestions about what SHOULD happen is that the Prosecution must PROVE BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT any charges ~ they need to prove intent ~ and that is often difficult.

[BayouMotownMan]

Well, if the good doctor DOES walk I think only a total fool will solicit his services. The fall-out will still be there

[smark21]

Well we part ways here. I agree he was both careless and opportunistic, and I don't believe for a second he meant to kill Michael [[although his siblings will allege this to try to extort money out of all the people surrounding MJ at the time)--but the degree of carelessness here goes far beyond the pale. If you repeatedly get behind the wheel drunk, get several DWI's, and then run somebody down, it is vehicular homicide. If you repeatedly into bar fights and finally kill somebody, you can be charged with second degree murder. Now in Murray's case the prosecutors were afraid they couldn't prove second degree murder, so they went for manslaughter--but putting that sheer amount of Propofol into MJ's system over and over again, along with 40-50 other sedatives on various occasions, is to me, no different than putting a bullet in his head.

I'll try to find it, but the other day I saw an article in the LA Times, I believe, in which several doctors treating Michael, including Dr. Murray, placed prescription requests to be filled for Michael using 4 or 5 different psedudonyms for Michael. Let's face it: Michael was doctor shopping for unethical practioneers to feed his prescription pill addiction. Michael wanted enablers, not help. Ultimately it's the addict him/herself who has to say, I need help, if they are going to get treatment.

[BobC]

Rick--there is no serious debate over when MJ's drug addiction started. Of all the rock/soul/whatever super stars, the Jacksons were one of the few groups from that time that were [[probably) drug free. I believe that. I really do. But so what? That doesn't mean anything today. The evidence is clear. MJ was a far gone drug addict

[Roberta75]

PS: I never said anything about Elizabeth or any other doctors being charged. I am just wondering if it will ever come out about how she figures into all this mess. ET went to MJ's rescue during his first bout with drugs, but she was also the one, as you said, who introduced MJ to Klein the candy man. And Klein was a big enabler to both of them.

Sadly, the judge made it really clear that Arnold Klein is not on trail [[he should be) and therefore any reference to his over filling Michael Jackson's prescriptions is inadmissible in the Conrad Murray trial.

[jobeterob]

I can't follow the trial but from what you guys write, it's just losers surrounded by losers.

[kenneth]

Sadly, the judge made it really clear that Arnold Klein is not on trail [[he should be) and therefore any reference to his over filling Michael Jackson's prescriptions is inadmissible in the Conrad Murray trial.

Is that true, Roberta75? I would think some of that information might be admissible to show all that MJ had available to him at the time of his death. But I am only watching the highlights of the trial, not the live stream.

Today might be interesting as it is Dr. Murray's taped statements to the LAPD after MJ's death and [[I think) before he got "lawyered up."

[BobC]

Roberta--I know he isn't going on trial for Jackson's death but I cannot believe Klein is not being investigated for his Candy Man actions for years

[BayouMotownMan]

I can understand the reason Klein is not up for charges yet, but could be in the future. When a patient is doctor shopping he usually keeps each doctor in the dark as to what was previously prescribed. Murray probably knew of all of this but can easily say he wasn't aware

[Roberta75]

Roberta--I know he isn't going on trial for Jackson's death but I cannot believe Klein is not being investigated for his Candy Man actions for years

Klein should be investigated IMO BobC.

[Roberta75]

Is that true, Roberta75? I would think some of that information might be admissible to show all that MJ had available to him at the time of his death. But I am only watching the highlights of the trial, not the live stream.

Today might be interesting as it is Dr. Murray's taped statements to the LAPD after MJ's death and [[I think) before he got "lawyered up."

Murray's attorneys brought up Arnold Klein early on in the trial kenneth and the judge said this trial was about Conrad Murray and what happened the day MJ died.

[dianesfan_1965]

Have you heard LaToya "sing?" It will make you a Yoko Ono fan

"Walking On Thin Ice" was a great song. The B-52's have always said that they styled some of their songs after Yoko.

[BobC]

Rick--I just about levitated off the sofa when I saw Lisa Marie and MJ kissed--It was like he was kissing a plank of wood! Today, Lisa wonders what MJ's real motivations were for marrying her.

[kenneth]

I can understand the reason Klein is not up for charges yet, but could be in the future. When a patient is doctor shopping he usually keeps each doctor in the dark as to what was previously prescribed. Murray probably knew of all of this but can easily say he wasn't aware

I think they'll get to that. Didn't some of Anna Nicole Smith's doctors get charged with over prescribing? I can't remember exactly, and so many of those things get reversed on Appeal though the reversals hardly make the news.

[Roberta75]

Rick--I just about levitated off the sofa when I saw Lisa Marie and MJ kissed--It was like he was kissing a plank of wood! Today, Lisa wonders what MJ's real motivations were for marrying her.

LOL. And what was Lisa Marie on when she accepted his proposal?

[BayouMotownMan]

Although Lisa Marie hasn't officially said this, I think the whole purpose behind the Jackson/Presley marriage was damage control to MJs career. Paying off the family who made the first sexual impropriety allegations hurt Jackson's persona, it was seen largely as an admission of guilt. That was a door that never closed for Michael.

It was also speculated that Presley was wanting to start a solo recording career of her own, and who better could assist with that than MJ. It was a short 18 month marriage. There was lot of speculation then as it is now whether that marriage was truly consummated. According to Presley, it was. The truth has always hidden well in MJs life

[captainjames]

This is how I remember it as it was told to me. Honestly, the first time I heard it I said WTF ? and I still do.


Although Lisa Marie hasn't officially said this, I think the whole purpose behind the Jackson/Presley marriage was damage control to MJs career. Paying off the family who made the first sexual impropriety allegations hurt Jackson's persona, it was seen largely as an admission of guilt. That was a door that never closed for Michael.

It was also speculated that Presley was wanting to start a solo recording career of her own, and who better could assist with that than MJ. It was a short 18 month marriage. There was lot of speculation then as it is now whether that marriage was truly consummated. According to Presley, it was. The truth has always hidden well in MJs life

[daddyacey]

What was the point in Murray recording M.J. in the first place? He was up to no good from the giddy up. He should fry ,plain and simple. Asshole.

[jaybs]

Last nights tape of Murray was as rambling as sadly Michael's was. I have watched all the court case nearly so far in the UK and compared to such high courts in the UK it comes over as so amateur! in fact all of the defence come over more like used car salesman than lawyers? Also I could never see any judge here in the UK allowing the rambling from legal teams and the many pregnant pauses as they are simply so disorganised!

[smark21]

What was the point in Murray recording M.J. in the first place? He was up to no good from the giddy up. He should fry ,plain and simple. Asshole.

He was pre-emptively covering his ass....not that I can blame him too much given what a drug addicted wreck his patient was. Unfortunately Michael, who could afford the best medical care out there, didn't want a quality doctor, he wanted an enabler so as a result his physicians came from the gutter.

[BobC]

Rick--I agree with you on the theory of Lisa wanting MJ to help her get a record deal, and MJ wanting her for damage control--but you are leaving out a part of the story. Before she married MJ, Lisa woke up one morning after a days long drug/alcohol binge, and found herself surrounded in her home by drug addicts she didn't even know. That's when she realized she had to get clean and she went straight to the Scientologists, begging for help. Scientologists are always on the prowl for gullible, wealthy celebrities. They sucked Lisa in, and probably got a lot of money out of her--then they set their sights on Michael Jackson, using Lisa to get to him. Lisa took MJ to a few meetings, but MJ just wasn't interested. He sensed they were after his money--with good reason. So I believe the whole Scientology thing played a role in that marriage happening. It's really hard to tell who was using whom.

Did you all see MJ had a porcelain doll in bed with him when he died? Frikkin' creepy. He also had five different drugs in his bloodstream, according to the autopsy. But yeah Jermaine was right--MJ wasn't a drug addict.

Roberta--one of the most bizarre things about Klein, is that he has made many, many incriminating statements about himself to the press. He just keeps talking. I can't believe how stupid he is. His lawyer--if he has one--must be peeing his pants right now. I have to believe detectives are investigating him--how could they not be?

Rick--I remember that note Michael wrote to the press and you are right--the education level displayed there was somewhere around 5th grade level. It always surprises me when certain people can speak fairly well, but cannot write a coherent sentence. It's like something gets lost in the translation. I don't think any of the Jacksons got a very good education, despite the tutors that went on the road with the group.

[BobC]

Smark--I don't think that's true. Why would Murray tape record a drugged out MJ--when he was the one supplying lethal amounts of drugs to Michael? There is no question in my mind that Murray was planning to blackmail Michael with those tapes. Murray had a habit of leaving $1000 tips for waitresses and strippers and such, along with his phone number, and he was also "keeping" at least one "actress" in a very expensive apartment. His extravagant spending put him in dire financial straights, and after seeing what he was willing to do to Michael for money, then blackmail is hardly out of the question. I think Murray, after the tour was over and that money stream dried up, was going to go to MJ and threaten to release the tapes to the media. It's the only scenario that makes sense in my mind. Michael dying threw the whole plan into a tailspin, IMO.

[BobC]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2045737/Conrad-Murray-trial-Michael-Jacksons-doll-drug-stash-shown-jurors.html

[jaybs]

It always surprises me when certain people can speak fairly well, but cannot write a coherent sentence. It's like something gets lost in the translation. I don't think any of the Jacksons got a very good education, despite the tutors that went on the road with the group.

I managed a Boy Band for several year and the lead singer was exactly the opposite, he could not write a letter to someone it would read like a young child, but he could knock out lyrics and melody's in minutes, one a few years back was for Russell Watson the opera? singer it was done as a duet.

Something does not sit right about Murray, as others have said I never thought that the tape conversation with Michael could have been for use as blackmail.

What do others feel about the defence team? as I said earlier in the thread from someone who has done jury duty now three times in the UK, I have never seen so amateur presentation and preparation.

There seems no doubt that Murray sold his soul just for the money and the very least I feel is that the American Medical Council should ban him for life for practising for be a willing party to supply and administrate a drug in such environment without the expertise and essential equipment.

I was brought up in a family that the Daily Mail was our daily delivered newspaper and when I moved out I continued to take it but now it is such a joke it is nothing more that an right wing gutter press tabloid, with such as the concentration on the doll in the bedroom and many readers who respond on the internet site seem to be real loony tunes!

[Roberta75]

Rick--I agree with you on the theory of Lisa wanting MJ to help her get a record deal, and MJ wanting her for damage control--but you are leaving out a part of the story. Before she married MJ, Lisa woke up one morning after a days long drug/alcohol binge, and found herself surrounded in her home by drug addicts she didn't even know. That's when she realized she had to get clean and she went straight to the Scientologists, begging for help. Scientologists are always on the prowl for gullible, wealthy celebrities. They sucked Lisa in, and probably got a lot of money out of her--then they set their sights on Michael Jackson, using Lisa to get to him. Lisa took MJ to a few meetings, but MJ just wasn't interested. He sensed they were after his money--with good reason. So I believe the whole Scientology thing played a role in that marriage happening. It's really hard to tell who was using whom.

Did you all see MJ had a porcelain doll in bed with him when he died? Frikkin' creepy. He also had five different drugs in his bloodstream, according to the autopsy. But yeah Jermaine was right--MJ wasn't a drug addict.

Roberta--one of the most bizarre things about Klein, is that he has made many, many incriminating statements about himself to the press. He just keeps talking. I can't believe how stupid he is. His lawyer--if he has one--must be peeing his pants right now. I have to believe detectives are investigating him--how could they not be?

Rick--I remember that note Michael wrote to the press and you are right--the education level displayed there was somewhere around 5th grade level. It always surprises me when certain people can speak fairly well, but cannot write a coherent sentence. It's like something gets lost in the translation. I don't think any of the Jacksons got a very good education, despite the tutors that went on the road with the group.

Arnold Klein is no better than Conrad Murray and should be investigated and charged, but Michael Jackson was a chronic drug addict and had probably been seeing dozens of unethical, greedy star struck doctors for decades. I have a feeling it will be a hung jury and Murray will walk. If this is the case the Jackson family will more than likely sue him civilly where you only need a preponderance of the evidence for a guilty verdict, even with reasonable doubt. Hopefully those tapes of a slurred drugged out Michael that were played in court will end Jermaine's ridiculous chanting "Michael was not an addict" on all future chat shows he's booked on.

The doctor who was charged for excessively prescribing prescription drugs to Anna Nicole Smith was acquitted and look at the state Miss Smith was in for the last 15 years of her life.

[Penny]

I love Michael's music but that Jackson Family has and is just one big train wreck.:D

[BobC]

Sadly you might be right, Roberta. Seems like anyone with even a tiny degree of fame, or infamy, walks these days. And I know you're right that MJ had been an addict for a long time and used multiple doctors--but Klein seemed to enjoy his job as drug supplier and I really hate how he does interviews with that S-eating smile on his flabby face. I can' stand that guy. At least Conrad Murray has the sense to keep his yap shut. I'm not absolving Michael of his role in all this, but he has already paid the ultimate price. Now it's his enabler's turn.

Jay--I cannot believe how shabby that defense lawyer is. His questions are so incoherent that half of them get tossed by the judge, with good reason. True Crime is one of my hobbies--reading about it, not doing it--and he is about the worst defense attorney I've ever seen. That being said, he successfully defended another doctor in a Propofol case a while ago, and that scares me.

[juicefree20]

As for Yoko Ono & her vocal stylings, I couldn't listen to her "Beautiful Boy" nor "Walikng On Thin Ice" even if they were in braille.

I'd rather listen to a Little Wayne/Pat Boone rap collaboration with Lady GaGa bringing up the rear wearing a skirt made of rat entrails.

Yes, Yoko's voice disturbs me that badly!

[marv2]

As for Yoko Ono & her vocal stylings, I couldn't listen to her "Beautiful Boy" nor "Walikng On Thin Ice" even if they were in braille.

I'd rather listen to a Little Wayne/Pat Boone rap collaboration with Lady GaGa bringing up the rear wearing a skirt made of rat entrails.

Yes, Yoko's voice disturbs me that badly!

Juice! What's up man? !!!

[jaybs]

Jay--I cannot believe how shabby that defense lawyer is. His questions are so incoherent that half of them get tossed by the judge, with good reason. True Crime is one of my hobbies--reading about it, not doing it--and he is about the worst defense attorney I've ever seen. That being said, he successfully defended another doctor in a Propofol case a while ago, and that scares me.

BobC what you say really does concern me! but last night it seemed to be made quite clear there is no possible way MJ could have taken the extra medication himself and all in a 2 minute timeline the Murray admits to! of course he seems friendly in the taped interview, that was set up by his lawyers and they were with him trying to present him in a good light, but in my opinion he scored few points.

I just Trust he will be at least struck off by the equivalent of our UK Medical Council for gross incompetency as per the use of Propofol, I am sure he can't state he sold his soul for cash $$$ supplying such amounts and administrating it when he clearly did not have the necessary vital support equipment full relevant experience.

[Roberta75]

They showed a very disturbing autopsy photo a naked Michael Jackson in court yesterday. Sadly the photo has now been leaked to all of the media.