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marybrewster
08-23-2010, 09:50 PM
The story goes that Motown/Berry wanted to send Diana and the Supremes off on a high note; they needed that elusive Number One hit.

If "Someday" would have failed, was there a backup plan for another single that might hit? Would Diana and the Supremes (or the Andantes?) have gone back into the studio to record another single/LP? What direction, musically, would DRATS have gone? I can't see Diana in the same style as Jean, so I'm doubtful songs like "Ladder" and "EGTRTL" would have made it on to Diana's plate. Maybe Diana would have just gone solo anyway?

marv2
08-23-2010, 10:48 PM
I don't know about all that, but I have heard that if the Ross solo career fizzled early on, there was a back up plan to put her back into the Supremes.

captainjames
08-24-2010, 08:39 AM
I am not sure where you heard this plan to put Diana back into the Supremes because Berry had laid a roadmap for her career almost from the beginning and it was to include movies and at one time broadway. The big screen was his ultimate goal and dream. Now I am not sure if he would have lifted her from the group without another hit record if Someday failed but, keep in mind, it was being pushed as Diana swan song from the group so there was not a lot of turnng back after this. Berry was going to make sure "Someday" was a hit if he had to go and buy a million copies himself.

captainjames
08-24-2010, 08:45 AM
.............and how fitting "Someday" was as Diana final Supreme number. I would hate to think that Diana left on "No Matter What Sign You Are". Although, I am not exact to the true last song I like to think "Forever Came Today" was Flo last number and "I'm Gonna Let My Heart Do The Walking" as Mary final song.

RossHolloway
08-24-2010, 09:37 AM
I've always thought Ain't No Mountain High Enough with DMC would have been a great swan song

skooldem1
08-24-2010, 12:02 PM
Diana said that when she made the decision to leave, there was no going back. She wasn't going to change her mind and want back in. She had to live with the decision she made.

nomis
08-24-2010, 09:28 PM
Diana wanted out and she wasnt even speaking to Mary and Cindy in those final months - all three have confirmed it in interviews and books.If they hadnt found Someday I think Berry would have pulled her out of the group anyway,She was deeply,deeply unhappy in The Supremes.
Aint No Monutain would have worked as a great final song,Funny how Berry wasnt keen on it as a single or Reach out either.I cant see Diana going back to The Supremes if the hits didnt come,But anythings possible at Motown! Berry had wanted her solo as early as '66 but Diana held back -but 69 she was over it,she felt betrayed by Mary and Cindy and they felt the same to her,ny all accounts it wasnt a healthy atmosphere at all and any problem Diana had became Berrys.In his mind she was a solo star already as the Supremes didnt sing on any of the singles since In and Out of Love (not including The tempation duets).
I dont know if Flo sang on Forever - the logs for this track are missing information the 2000 box set left the question open,we only have Turners account that Flo was adamant she sang on the track,I believe Turners story is true that Flo believed she sang on it- but the log information for the session dosent explain the mystery.

luke
08-24-2010, 09:44 PM
No way would Berry have let Diana leave Supremes without hit--he kept her in AFTER No Matter, Someday, Composer etc He wanted a hit even though she wanted to leave-Im sure for her sake-not Mary and Cindys. She would then start at the top. And Im sure there WAS a back up plan. Oh Miss Ross just wanted some solo experience for awhile and still may again and....He was very nervous when he had to beg people to come to fill up her first solo engagement and when the Supremes initially hit much bigger than Diana.

nomis
08-24-2010, 10:31 PM
"Someday' was a solo Diana song anyway so technically its a moot point..

bradsupremes
08-25-2010, 12:23 AM
Regarding "Forever Came Today," the instrumental track was recorded in LA in April 1967. No vocals were recorded until December. That would mean that there was no way that Florence could have sung on the track. There were two different background vocal tracks recorded. One was the "demo" version with one of the Andantes singing really deep - it appeared on the Japanese Greatest Hits Quad album. The other background vocal track is the one that we are all familiar with - the one used on the single and album. Both are the Andantes, no Supremes.

"These Things Will Keep Me Loving You" was planned as Diana's debut single, but was pushed back to a B-Side, then replaced and ended up being an album track. Interestingly enough, "These Things Will Keep Me Loving You" was originally assigned for the Supremes to record. However, it was re-assigned to Diana a few days after the instrumental track was completed. With the growing success of "Someday We'll Be Together" by November 1969, I have a theory that "These Things Will Keep Me Loving You" was originally intended to be the Supremes first single after Diana. With it's similarities to "Someday We'll Be Together," it would have served as transition from Diana to Jean while keeping Johnny Bristol's guide as a connection in both songs. However, someone at Motown (most likely Berry) thought it would be a better idea for the song to be Diana's debut single and her transition from the Supremes to solo artist instead of the song being a transition of lead singers in the Supremes.

ExGuyParis
08-25-2010, 01:05 AM
Diana wanted out and she wasnt even speaking to Mary and Cindy in those final months - all three have confirmed it in interviews and books.If they hadnt found Someday I think Berry would have pulled her out of the group anyway,She was deeply,deeply unhappy in The Supremes.


I think I remember reading once upon a time that Someday was intended to be a solo Ross record (as recorded, with the Andantes) but the last few Supremes singles failed to peak... so it became a Supremes song.

The last time I saw D & the Supremes at the Latin Casino, I talked with Cindy and Mary after the show, and it was clear they were unhappy in the Supremes as well. They told me that Diana & Berry were staying in a different hotel, and they were angry about that... and the Cindy & Mary were no longer sharing a dressing room with Diana. There was no clue about those emotions during the performance, though!

nomis
08-25-2010, 01:14 AM
Thanks for clearing that up about "Forever" Brad.

captainjames
08-25-2010, 08:26 AM
Lifting Diana from the SUPREMES was all about timing and when Berry felt comfortable enough to do it. Diana was miserable in the group up to the point where she said at the Frontier Hotel......"This Is It Gil" and breathed a sigh of relief. The whole point became a real big misunderstanding inside the group and they were not smart enough to sit down and talk it through. Berry could have really had two empires if he thought it through long enough. However, being a boss and feeling unappreciated for what he felt he had done made it a bit jagged. It's all good though because the real star as much as we like to down play it was Diana.

That being said in regard to The Supremes (Andantes) swan song with Diana, I really thought it would have been "Love Child". No matter how you slice it that song is a Diana Ross solo song too. However, as I said before I think Berry was still going for the face/name recognition thing and so came specials like TCB and GIT. Berry was not dumb in what and where he was going with Motown and Diana and that can not be argued by the history of a little black owned company from the streets of Detroit.

If Berry thought and knew how to take the Temptations, The Supremes, The Marvelettes, Martha and the Vandellas, Marvin Gaye, Stevie Wonder, The Velvelettes, The Monitors, The Spinners, The Four Tops, The Elgins, Blinky, etc through that same train wreck he would have done it.

daviddh
08-25-2010, 10:12 AM
also, after the departure of Florence and HDH, motown felt that the Supremes would not recover so REFLECTIONS was planned to be the last single [at that time] and Flo was going to be brought back for a farewell tour or shows. Diana didnt feel she was ready and she also felt an obligation to Mary wilson so she stayed until her contract with the supremes [january 13 1970] was completed. i dont think diana would have stayed one way or another. her contract was up .

daviddh
08-25-2010, 10:28 AM
i think the Supremes saga played out the way it should have. even if Flo would have stayed ,would things been different? i don't think it would have as HDH left a few months later and then Diana 2 years later. if you look at the Supremes as a whole and not a era or break them down into group members......they had a nice run ,...even though they were hit by several blows including the forementioned above. the group continued on during these difficult times and usually came out on top or near the top even with Jean Terrell in the 70s. even the loss of producer Frank Wilson the group bounced back with the Smokey lp a year later. it really wasnt until motown closed down the detroit location and moved everything to LA that things changed [1973].
i think things would have been the same no matter what or who.

marv2
08-25-2010, 10:54 AM
Captainjames why do you keep saying it was the Andantes on "the Supremes swansong"? It was not. It was Maxine and Julia Waters, along with Johnny Bristol.

captainjames
08-25-2010, 12:16 PM
Oh honestly I don't really care if it was The Waters, The Andantes, The Blackberries or Rocky and Bullwinkle. All I know is that it was not Flo, Mary and Cindy on those records.

captainjames
08-25-2010, 12:22 PM
Here is Mary saying it is one of her favorite Supreme songs but "Diana's Swansong".

marv2
08-25-2010, 01:18 PM
Just give credit where it is due.

captainjames
08-25-2010, 02:03 PM
Ok sorry I will; here goes
The majority of the songs sung by The Supremes and Diana Ross and The Supremes were actually solos by Diana and didn't include any other Supreme. There ....credit given.

ExGuyParis
08-25-2010, 02:17 PM
Sometimes I step back and ponder in amazement how a group that disbanded more than 40 years ago still prompts so much emotion! Then I dive right back in.

525

1382hitsville
08-25-2010, 02:45 PM
In November 1969 Diana started recording with producer Bones Howe at the suggestion from Shelly Berger. Bones was very succesful with The Fifth Dimension, the thought was to go outside the company (Motown) to do something completely different for Diana's first album. They recorded Time And Love, Stoney End, The Interim and Love's Lines, Angles and Rhymes. Diana and Berry weren't sure about this and we all know the first album was made by Ashford & Simpson (they started recording for solo material also November 1969.

Jean later dubbed the vocals for Time And Love for the post Diana Supremes album Touch.

marv2
08-25-2010, 03:18 PM
Captainjames, you are giving out misinformation that can be easily disputed. If you don't want to be serious, then I will it here and go on.

marv2
08-25-2010, 03:21 PM
1382hitsville, yeah. Here's an interesting "duet", "comparison" of the two recordings you mentioned. Here's Jean/Supremes and Diana Ross singing "Time and Love".


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5V7Qh_lMao

Livingallalone
08-25-2010, 04:18 PM
Oh honestly I don't really care if it was The Waters, The Andantes, The Blackberries or Rocky and Bullwinkle. All I know is that it was not Flo, Mary and Cindy on those records.


LOL now that made me laugh.....Rocky and Bullwinkle!!!!!!

sophisticated_soul
08-25-2010, 04:31 PM
It was NOT Rocky and Bullwinkle. That's and urban legend. It was Boris & Natasha! LOL!

captainjames
08-25-2010, 04:35 PM
Oh shoot I forgot to put the link in
Here is Mary saying it is one of her favorite Supreme songs but "Diana's Swansong".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p058fsBrLjw

marv2
08-25-2010, 04:47 PM
Wonderful clip Captainjames. I was in the audience that night when they filmed at Westbury. Sang it Mary!

captainjames
08-25-2010, 05:28 PM
Then you should have heard her say it was "Diana's Swan Song"

MissLish
08-25-2010, 05:54 PM
Captainjames, you are giving out misinformation that can be easily disputed. If you don't want to be serious, then I will it here and go on.



Taken seriously? Do you mean as seriously as you are taken marv2? You and your top secret Motown 50 special? When did it air?

jonc
08-25-2010, 06:14 PM
Taken seriously? Do you mean as seriously as you are taken marv2? You and your top secret Motown 50 special? When did it air?


LMFAO. Or Marv2's trip to the "Albany Institute of History & Art" to see Mary's gown collection three weeks after it had left town. They ought to call him Lilac cause he can lie like hell.

captainjames
08-25-2010, 09:29 PM
Misslish and Jonc------now that was Hilarious !!!!!

nomis
08-25-2010, 10:15 PM
Exguyparis - you asked a good question - why does it prompt so much emotion ? - i can only speak for myself but this is why i find The Supremes story so facinating - Take The Beatles - they were in chart terms,The Supremes only peer - every detail of their career has been written about in microscopic detail - not so The Supremes.
To me the Supremes is a big jigsaw puzzle of a story with facts only coming to light now,40 years on...
Ex guy you posted a picture of the Ice Capades ad from '67 - There has never been a listing of what they performed on this show and a few others - Americas biggest group on National TV and there is no public documentation of some apperances,As a historian that wets my appetite..
take the period we are talking about on this thread - the release of "Someday' -the girls appeared at this time on The Tonight show (along with The palace & sullivan) - I assume they performed "Someday" on Carson show - but I dont know for sure -Ive never read a single line about anything to do with this important tv booking - no author has mentioned it,no one on this forum has ever answered questions Ive asked about it -Thats what keeps me interested in the story I believe that the collecting of data on their work,as opposed to the scandal,will reinforce just how important these ladies were to the civil rights movement...every time I learn something new about their work,however trivial,It teaches me that there is always something new to learn..aside from the great music thats what keeps me a fan...

luke
08-26-2010, 09:48 AM
Time for ignore button--thanks Ralph! Pretty soon it will be total pleasure to read posts! Thanks for Waters info Marv. Mis-info becomes fact if not addressed. I wonder why the Waters were selected and not the Andantes?

marv2
08-26-2010, 10:00 AM
Luke, the ignore button is a wonderful tool! I employed it the day we moved over to the new forum, hehehehehe.....

You are welcome. They may have used the Waters because a portion of the record was done on the West Coast and they sound terrific! Singer-actress Merry Clayton mentioned that she is also on the background of "Someday We'll Be Together".

luke
08-26-2010, 10:05 AM
One of the Ikettes also said she was in background. Has Andy or anyone addressed this?

marv2
08-26-2010, 10:34 AM
That would be a good question. It does sound like a small gospel choir on that song. It still sounded good when performed live with just Mary and Cindy doing the harmonies and responses. Andy, where are you? LOL!

captainjames
08-26-2010, 11:51 AM
Misslish and Jonc let us chat offline ----

midnightman
08-26-2010, 12:37 PM
When it comes to the Supremes, Motown was in a mess trying to set things up. The Andantes probably weren't able to do the sessions so Berry or whoever was a Motown staffer got the Waters to do it. After "Someday", they became one of the most prolific vocal session groups of the '70s. They're the ones going soprano on Michael Jackson's (or excuse me, the Jacksons') "Heartbreak Hotel" though technically only Michael (and Tito) were featured on the song (though the Jacksons are each credited for percussion).

I'm thinking Mary performs the song because it's what people associate with the Supremes. However, technically both "Love Child" and "Someday" are Diana solo records.

nomis
08-26-2010, 01:21 PM
thanks midnightman I will re-listen to "heartbreak hotel" and see if I can spot them...

captainjames
08-26-2010, 01:34 PM
Midnightman that was very well said !!!

sup_fan
08-26-2010, 02:12 PM
i understand that people get upset when they learn mary, flo and/or cindy aren't on the records. in general i too would prefer them to be on them. however i do not consider Someday or Love Child Diana solo ventures. no record, no matter how good, is a hit w/o promotion. just look at most of the 70s sups material and you'll see what happens to great songs that don't get promotion. so even though M, C and F might not be on the vinyl, they more than did their share of promoting and pushing the material live, in interview and on tv.

smark21
08-26-2010, 06:34 PM
i understand that people get upset when they learn mary, flo and/or cindy aren't on the records. in general i too would prefer them to be on them. however i do not consider Someday or Love Child Diana solo ventures. no record, no matter how good, is a hit w/o promotion. just look at most of the 70s sups material and you'll see what happens to great songs that don't get promotion. so even though M, C and F might not be on the vinyl, they more than did their share of promoting and pushing the material live, in interview and on tv.

NOt to mention the vocal arrangement on Love Child and Someday involve some significant background vocal action, not just a few atmospheric oohs and ahhs buried in the mix. Whoever may have been singing on those songs, the record comes across as being by a vocal group, not a soloist.

marv2
08-26-2010, 06:41 PM
I have to agree with sup_fan, those are Supremes records. That's what it said on the label and that's who I saw perform them on TV. On the album covers there were pictures of Mary Wilson, Florence and later Cindy Birdsong, along with Diana Ross. those were used for more than just to contain the disk, they were used to promote the recording. That's why I bought them (it said "The Supremes"). I would not have bought a record back then of "Diana Ross all by herself..."

For close to 20 years, I and just about everyone else on Earth believed that all three Supremes sang on ALL of the recordings ( it's just a small handful where that may not have been the case). Until Mary Wilson's book came out where she explained things about a few of their recordings. Up until then, no one had said anything to the contrary.

sup_fan is right , Mary , Florence and later Cindy worked and made those records number one! They were the ones that sang them to us live in concert and on television. Didn't see Diane doing them by herself..........

marv2
08-26-2010, 07:29 PM
One of the Ikettes also said she was in background. Has Andy or anyone addressed this?

Luke, that would be Robbie Montgomery. I believe she told this to our KevGo during an interview he conducted with her some time back.

captainjames
08-26-2010, 07:30 PM
Midnightman I remember hearing back in the day that Berry put the so called "Clan" up in a hotel and told them not to come out until they had a hit record. Berry Gordy really wanted to lift Diana from the group bad. When "Love Child" took off I wonder why he changed his mind. In fact after listenting to that album I remember thinking...............hmmmmmm I don't hear a ot of Mary and Cindy on here.

captainjames
08-26-2010, 07:35 PM
However as I am sitting here listening to different recordings, Diana never sounded better than when Nick and Val where under her. I can just imagine Nick in the studio saying "You better sing that song girl" hahahaha.

skooldem1
08-26-2010, 07:53 PM
Speaking of "Someday" and "Love Child".."Diana Ross" is now credited with those songs on the billboard chart bringing her to 8 number ones. Its tricky, the Supremes are also credited. The reason is because they were released as Diana Ross AND The Supremes.

midnightman
08-26-2010, 08:39 PM
Midnightman I remember hearing back in the day that Berry put the so called "Clan" up in a hotel and told them not to come out until they had a hit record. Berry Gordy really wanted to lift Diana from the group bad. When "Love Child" took off I wonder why he changed his mind. In fact after listenting to that album I remember thinking...............hmmmmmm I don't hear a ot of Mary and Cindy on here.

That's something I don't get either... =/

midnightman
08-26-2010, 08:40 PM
Speaking of "Someday" and "Love Child".."Diana Ross" is now credited with those songs on the billboard chart bringing her to 8 number ones. Its tricky, the Supremes are also credited. The reason is because they were released as Diana Ross AND The Supremes.

I wonder if Chaka Khan got co-credit with the hits with Rufus... I think I'm sure she's credited with the hits alongside Rufus if that's the case with Diana Ross AND the Supremes. Weird.

midnightman
08-26-2010, 08:41 PM
Oddly while Mary Wilson is still singing "Someday", Diana has but all kept it from her set list since the '70s. I guess it's something we'll never fully understand but as long as the Supremes as a group can brag that it's their hit (as is "Love Child") then so be it.

skooldem1
08-26-2010, 08:44 PM
Midnightman I remember hearing back in the day that Berry put the so called "Clan" up in a hotel and told them not to come out until they had a hit record. Berry Gordy really wanted to lift Diana from the group bad. When "Love Child" took off I wonder why he changed his mind. In fact after listenting to that album I remember thinking...............hmmmmmm I don't hear a ot of Mary and Cindy on here.

Maybe he hadn't found a suitable replacement yet.

skooldem1
08-26-2010, 08:49 PM
I wonder if Chaka Khan got co-credit with the hits with Rufus... I think I'm sure she's credited with the hits alongside Rufus if that's the case with Diana Ross AND the Supremes. Weird.

Were the earlier hits released under Rufus or Rufus featuring Chaka Khan? I'd think any thing released under "Rufus featuring", she would. In Diana's case, the Supremes are still credited with 12. Nothing really changed except for the fact that technically she is credited with 8. She doesn't claim it, and critics don't every quote this. But I did read this in Billboard a couple of years ago when they had made changes in how they tabulate things.

jobeterob
08-26-2010, 09:35 PM
A few years back Billboard re-did their credits and all "name" artists were credited with the #1's - but you had to be named on the record label.

They still have this odd situation existing where "The Supremes" were listed on the label, get credit for the #1 or Top 10, but didn't actually sing on the record. Unless you start to include Marlene Barrow, the Andantes, the Waters, Rocky & Bullwinkle, Elegant Soul and John Lester as Supremes - and of course, we do! The Lord knows there were many Supremes.

nomis
08-26-2010, 10:20 PM
It was a telling moment in '93 when Diana told Oprah she didnt think Cindy was an "Official" supreme - yes there was many Supremes - but at that moment in her life Diana certainly didnt think there was...
I remember the last time this subject came up on this forum (of should Cindy and Mary be credited for songs they didnt sing).
I think some older members here believe that seeing as the girls lip synched and sang them in concert they belong to them...I used to think it was a deception on Gordys part to the public..but Ive mellowed now - Diana dosent ask for credit as a solo artist and Marv recently explained to me as for "Love Child" Mary and Cindy where not even asked to particapate in the recording..but I still stand by the point that if Flo had been still in the group there wouldnt be Diana solo "Supremes" hits -she would have never have put up with it she got extra vocals removed from "the Happening'..so she had strong opinions about extra voices on hits...

pj1
08-26-2010, 11:03 PM
They may have used the Waters because a portion of the record was done on the West Coast and they sound terrific! Singer-actress Merry Clayton mentioned that she is also on the background of "Someday We'll Be Together".

Reading what has been revealed in recent years, the scenario takes a few right turns. Johnny Bristol: the MGM Collection states 'By 1969, Bristol was itching to parlay his gold-plated studio credentials into a return to the front line. :OK, now's a good time for Jackey and I to get started again" he told himself, " so I actually re-cut 'Someday We'll Be together for Jackey and I' Bristol and Beavers had, with Fuqua , originally written, recorded and released their version of the song on Tri-Phi in 1961. Eight years later, when the remake didn't pan out for them, Bristol took it to Junior Walker, looking for a follow-up to 'What Does It Take'. The saxman passed. Then Berry Gordy got wind of it. He said, according to Bristol, "Look, I hear this song for Diana Ross" Added Johnny, 'At the time, you didn't argue with him".
Whether the backgrounds were recorded for the Jackey and Johnny remake, Jr. Walker follow-up, or the Diana version (originally earmarked to be her first solo single until Shelly Berger convinced Berry to release it as a Diana Ross & the Supremes single) has never been stated in this or other accounts of recent years. The Complete Motown Singles Collection: Vol9: 1969 lists the track as being recorded on June 13, 1969 and assigned to Junior Walker; additional recording dates unknown. The song was released on October 14, 1969.

pj1
08-26-2010, 11:22 PM
and Marv recently explained to me as for "Love Child" Mary and Cindy where not even asked to particapate in the recording..but I still stand by the point that if Flo had been still in the group there wouldnt be Diana solo "Supremes" hits -she would have never have put up with it she got extra vocals removed from "the Happening'..so she had strong opinions about extra voices on hits...

Mary Wilson revealed in 'DreamGirl My Life As A Supreme" that Berry had wanted she and Cindy to be on the new single (then not yet fully written) (Love Child). This was likely motivated by the decreasing chart position of the singles featuring the Andates in the background, 'Forever Came Today' and Nick Ashford & Valerie Simpson, 'Some Things You Never Get Used To' . However, Mary insisted that she needed a real vacation and left against Berry's wishes. She went to LA, found a home to buy in Hollywood Hills, spent time in Mexico with Duke Fakir (of the Four Tops) whose marriage had just ended, and then returned to Detroit. When she got back the single had already been recorded. It is said that although the production staff still wanted to invite Cindy to be on the recording, Berry nixed it, since Mary was unavailable.
Flo wasn't as successful with 'In And Out Of Love' . She & Mary recorded their backgrounds on June 12, 1967, the same day that Diana recorded her lead. On Jun 13, 1967, the Andantes over-dubbbed their vocals on Mary & Flo's track.

marv2
08-27-2010, 12:06 AM
From "Dreamgirl, My Life As A Supreme", Page 221 , paragraph 4........

"I found my home, a large modern place in the Hollywood Hills, complete with pool and sauna, and we had a wonderful time in Mexico. I came back to Detroit refreshed and ready to get to work, only to find that they had gone ahead and recorded the new song without me. Berry had wanted a song written, so Pam Sawyer, R. Dean Taylor, Frank Wilson and Deke Richards had composed "Love Child". Although I was angry and hurt by being left out, I did like the song. Though it's storyline was not autobiographical for any of us, we knew girlfriends and relatives who had babies out of wedlock, and we knew what a hardship it was. "Love Child" was quite explicit, and the message was, I felt, important. It would be our only number-one record in 1968, and the first major hit I had not sung on. "

The above is what was in Mary's book , verbatim! Just prior to the above paragraph, Mary and Berry were having a conversation about Mary wanting to go to LA to take care of some personal business and as a vacation and Berry is characterizing the situation in Detroit as one where they are getting ready to write and record a new single for the Supremes. Mary says that they didn't need her there while they were writing and that she would only be gone a week and couldn't they wait until she got back? So the facts are she did not refuse to record "Love Child" (the song didn't even have a name yet), they did it behind her back anyway! This all came out in the lawsuit of 1977! It should also be noted that in her original contract with Motown Records, Mary Wilson could not refuse to participate as a member of the Supremes ( i.e. recording sessions, performances, personal appearances,etc.) on the other hand Motown could not replace her legally in recording sessions, performances etc ,etc if she was not ill and physically able to work. Guess what? By Motown recording songs such as "Love Child " and "Someday We'll Be Together" without the services of Mary Wilson, they in fact did replace her on those recordings and they were in breach of contract! But that is just getting boggled down in more things we really don't need to know, right? LOL!

nomis
08-27-2010, 12:22 AM
Great post Marv,you told me the same thing the other week when I brought up Love Child,you expanded on more details here,very interesting...

marv2
08-27-2010, 12:31 AM
Nomis you are very welcome. What we cannot convey here is what was going on in Berry Gordy's mind at the time. He could be very cunning no doubt, however he was the BOSS and if he had said "Look Mary, I need you here in Detroit, postpone your trip to LA" she would not have liked it, but she would have done it, no doubt! Recording a Supremes record without the Supremes was meant to be a message directed at Mary and Cindy.

pj1
08-27-2010, 01:17 AM
Some additional food for thought regarding 'Love Child' - Prior to Marv's verbatim, Mary writes : 'Things were changing, and I felt like I was in limbo. I had no real home and felt that I needed to get away. I said to Berry ''I need a vacation- a real one. Not one of those little breaks you give us , where we still have to come in to record and do publicity. I've been working too hard.''
"Mary, you had better work while you can " he replied in that paternal voice he liked to use. "There may come a day when you wish you had taken advantage of every working day offered to you."
"But, Berry, I deserve a real vacation."
"Mary, we're getting ready to write and record a new single. Don't you want to be on it? It could be important."
" I'm going for only a week, and you know I have business on the West Coast. Can't you wait until I get back to record? I'm not a writer; you don't need me for that anyway."
My arguments didn't seem to be working. Berry acted as if I were doing something foolish, but he knew that I knew that they didn't need me to write a song. This was just a game. I took time off and went to Los Angeles to take care of some details regarding my upcoming move there and then went to Acapulco. Duke's marriage had ended, so we decided to give it one more chance just to see if we could make things work.
I found my home........ the first major hit I had not sung on."
The Complete Motown Singles Collection Vol 8 sets the scene- Friday, September 13, 1968 R.Dean Taylor, Frank Wilson, Deke Richards, Pam Sawyer, Henry Cosby checked into Detroit's Pontchartrain Hotel and are told by Berry Gordy that they were not to leave until they had written the next million seller. After several ideas were tried and rejected Pam Sawyer introduced the child born out of wedlock theme. Frank Wilson relates that Berry Gordy dropped by and loved Pam's idea. Pam & R. Dean work on lyrics, Frank & R .Dean do chord structure and melody. On Tuesday, September 17, the song is completed and the participants rush straight to the studio for a 3 hour recording session for the basic track. Strings are recorded at Golden World on Wednesday. On Thursday, Syreeta records the demo lead and the Andantes the background vocals. Deke Richards recalls that at first Diana passed on the song but did in fact record a lead on Thursday. On Friday , September 20 , Diana returns to the studio and records additional lead vocals.
Frank Wilson has stated " I thought we had Mary, Cindy and the Andantes on that record. If [Mary and Cindy] are not on it, it was because we were on a bullet train".
It appears that the writers knew that they had come up with something special and wanted to get it out to the public as soon as possible.

MissLish
08-27-2010, 08:08 AM
Yes; lettuce..

MissLish
08-27-2010, 08:12 AM
Time for ignore button--thanks Ralph! Pretty soon it will be total pleasure to read posts! Thanks for Waters info Marv. Mis-info becomes fact if not addressed. I wonder why the Waters were selected and not the Andantes?


Mis-information? Like Marv2's super secret Motown 50 special Luke? Is that what you meant, my darling? Miss Lish musta missed it. Now do tell, dear; did you enjoy it? Was it all that we had imagined it would be? If you don't mind, would you be kind enough to post a review? Apparently, Marv2 is still sworn to secrecy; he hasn't uttered a word about it since announcing it all those months ago.

Glenpwood
08-27-2010, 11:37 AM
Diana is credited for 8 number ones because someone wrote in several years back to chart beat when Fred Bronson was running the column and pled the case they are solo records since Mary and Cindy are absent. Of course if there so willing to bend the rules they should credit Diana with 20 number ones since she had 12 as a Supremes, 5 solo, 1 with Lionel Richie and has 2 uncredited vocal turns (We Are The World & Mo Money Mo Problems). I do remember someone writing in after the switch and pointing out that Yesterday is technically a solo Paul McCartney song but they weren't willing to switch that....

marybrewster
08-27-2010, 11:52 AM
Someone asked whatever happened to the Supremes plaquette that was at the Frontier Hotel. That's a good question. I've been to Vegas several times and was at the Frontier in 1993-1994-1995 (somewhere around there). I searched high and low for that thing; couldn't find it. My guess? A fan "borrowed" it. :)

jonc
08-27-2010, 12:02 PM
Mis-information? Like Marv2's super secret Motown 50 special Luke? Is that what you meant, my darling? Miss Lish musta missed it. Now do tell, dear; did you enjoy it? Was it all that we had imagined it would be? If you don't mind, would you be kind enough to post a review? Apparently, Marv2 is still sworn to secrecy; he hasn't uttered a word about it since announcing it all those months ago.

I respectfully request that you PLEASE STAY POSITIVE Miss Lish. Marv2 is probably still editing his hush hush Motown Anniversary "network" TV Special and under a studio embargo. Another scenario could be that Marv2 may be holding back the special to air in conjunction with the upcoming Mary Wilson new CD. If Marv2 said he was working on a "Motown Anniversary "network" TV Special" then who are we to question him. I'm sure it will air in the not too distant future.

whitesoxx
08-27-2010, 12:42 PM
Jonc, you crack me up :-)

midnightman
08-27-2010, 01:46 PM
Were the earlier hits released under Rufus or Rufus featuring Chaka Khan? I'd think any thing released under "Rufus featuring", she would. In Diana's case, the Supremes are still credited with 12. Nothing really changed except for the fact that technically she is credited with 8. She doesn't claim it, and critics don't every quote this. But I did read this in Billboard a couple of years ago when they had made changes in how they tabulate things.

I think after 1974 everything they released was as "Rufus featuring Chaka Khan".

skooldem1
08-27-2010, 01:49 PM
Diana is credited for 8 number ones because someone wrote in several years back to chart beat when Fred Bronson was running the column and pled the case they are solo records since Mary and Cindy are absent. Of course if there so willing to bend the rules they should credit Diana with 20 number ones since she had 12 as a Supremes, 5 solo, 1 with Lionel Richie and has 2 uncredited vocal turns (We Are The World & Mo Money Mo Problems). I do remember someone writing in after the switch and pointing out that Yesterday is technically a solo Paul McCartney song but they weren't willing to switch that....

This change in their rules was in place. The rule was not changed for her. Again, it has nothing to do with who did or didn't sing in the background. Its all about billing. Hence the change.

midnightman
08-27-2010, 01:59 PM
The Supremes' situation, IMHO, I don't think was as unique as some would make it out to be. You could say Motown overworked the Andantes in a way since they not only had to add backgrounds to the Supremes' works from 1967 to 1969 but they also were called on to overdub for the Marvelettes and the Vandellas though it's often debated the actual group members of the Marvelettes and Vandellas were on the same recordings though the latter-day Vandellas sung on the group's last two records before disbanding. We also gotta understand someone like Mary didn't wanna be pushed around while Diana Ross being the LEAD SINGER really had no choice in the matter. If Berry told her that he had discovered "Mary Had a Little Lamb" and figured Diana could turn it into a hit he would convince her to sing it and if Mary and Cindy weren't available he put anybody behind it and have Motown issue it as a Diana Ross and the Supremes single. Oddly sales for them didn't quite recover after the 1964-1967 heyday due to changing musical scenes and the exit of Holland-Dozier-Holland so they had to rely on creating their mainstream image while most of their records suffered when they were "Diana Ross & the Supremes". While "Love Child" was definitely intended for the Supremes, "Someday" almost never was. I think Shelly not only decided to use the song as the final "Supremes single" with Diana but also did it just in case if the record was released as a Diana solo single and it didn't do as well, it wouldn't have looked good in the press in terms of Diana's emerging solo career. People kinda overlooked the difficulty Motown had with establishing Diana as a solo artist to the public. That's why they added in extra stuff (discovering the Jackson 5, performing solo on variety specials, etc.) to boost her marketing wise.

pj1
08-27-2010, 02:47 PM
While "Love Child" was definitely intended for the Supremes, "Someday" almost never was. I think Shelly not only decided to use the song as the final "Supremes single" with Diana but also did it just in case if the record was released as a Diana solo single and it didn't do as well, it wouldn't have looked good in the press in terms of Diana's emerging solo career. People kinda overlooked the difficulty Motown had with establishing Diana as a solo artist to the public. That's why they added in extra stuff (discovering the Jackson 5, performing solo on variety specials, etc.) to boost her marketing wise.

Shelly also added this little twist in the Complete Motown Singles Vol.9 :1969
" During this time, Mr. Gordy, in his own little suite of offices across the street from our main office at 6464 Sunset Boulevard, played me 'Someday We'll Be Together' . He said it was Diana Ross's first solo single. 'My God' , I said, 'you can't put that out as her first single. That is a number one record! That story- 'Someday We'll Be Together'- don't you want the Supremes to go out on a number one record?'
'But its not a Supremes record ', he said. 'Johnny Bristol's on it....' I reminded Berry it's a Supremes record if we say its a Supremes record.
'Well what are we gonna do with Diana?', he asked me. 'She's going to be really upset.'
We had been talking about the Jackson 5's debut album. I ponted to a mock-up and said 'Why don't we have the cover say ' Diana Ross Presents the Jackson 5?' It puts her in a different catagory' And that's what we did."

MissLish
08-27-2010, 03:39 PM
Ooooowhahoooo! Now that is a juicy little tidbit pj1! Thanks for sharing. LOLOLOLOL!

jeff9nyc
08-27-2010, 03:53 PM
I think I remember reading once upon a time that Someday was intended to be a solo Ross record (as recorded, with the Andantes) but the last few Supremes singles failed to peak... so it became a Supremes song.

The last time I saw D & the Supremes at the Latin Casino, I talked with Cindy and Mary after the show, and it was clear they were unhappy in the Supremes as well. They told me that Diana & Berry were staying in a different hotel, and they were angry about that... and the Cindy & Mary were no longer sharing a dressing room with Diana. There was no clue about those emotions during the performance, though!

I've ben luck enough to have been around to see (or not see) The Supremes at some very interesting times in their history. The first was at the Latin Casino in March of '67, the week "The Happening" was released. One of the last gigs before Flo left.(There are pictures of Flo and her boyfriend at the Rickshaw Inn in Peter Benjamin's book from that gig.) The next time was August '67 at Steel Pier, one of the first gigs with Cindy. (The gig that ExGuyParis posted pictures from in the gold gowns.) The in June of '68, I was going to see them at the Latin Casino as a birthday gift, but Diana's dogs ate poison in the dressing room 2 nights before I was to go and they canceled the gig. I was beyond devastated. I kept thinking she would come back. I kept wondering if I was dreaming. I hard time for a 14 year old who lived for his "girls."

jeff9nyc
08-27-2010, 03:55 PM
Ooops...before your write, the last gig I was scheduled to see was in June of '69, not '68. That's the one ExGuyParis is referring to also. Can't believe we never ran into each other being at so many of the same gigs. I was also at Madison Square Garden during THAT gig in '77. I couldn't believe what I was witnessing. It was harsh to say the least.

MissLish
08-27-2010, 07:16 PM
What happened in 1977 at MSG?

nomis
08-27-2010, 07:19 PM
Pj1 - I loved that quote from Berry - "well what are we gonna do with Diana?" he asked "She going to be really upset."....this is were Diana took more control in their relationship....she wanted Reach Out as the first single and the companies marketing team & Berry nold her no.....she got her first single choice..Berry doubted Aint No Moutains potential....she got her secound single choice..the stage shows were lavish theatrical presentations from her imagination....

Midnightman - I loved what you wrote - "We also gotta understand someone like Mary didnt wanna be pushed around while Diana Ross being the LEAD SINGER really had no choice in the subject..." Man I started to laugh out loud at work when I read that - in a few sentences you managed encapuslate just how pissed off Mary was...Thats a big turning point in Mary becoming hostile to the changes in the group ...suddenely Flo was gone and now Mary was being aloof to Diana.

Jeff 9nyc -If I had been a fan around the time of the Latin Casino cancellations it would have devasted my world as well...

rubcale
10-01-2010, 01:45 PM
Speaking of "Someday" and "Love Child".."Diana Ross" is now credited with those songs on the billboard chart bringing her to 8 number ones. Its tricky, the Supremes are also credited. The reason is because they were released as Diana Ross AND The Supremes.

And to complicate matters even further we know that Mary and Cindy didn't actually sing on ANY singles after Florence left!

marybrewster
10-01-2010, 02:03 PM
And to complicate matters even further we know that Mary and Cindy didn't actually sing on ANY singles after Florence left!

Which actually isn't true: "I'm Gonna Make You Love Me" with the Temptations was released as a single.

jobeterob
10-01-2010, 05:06 PM
The Madison Square Garden concert in 1977 is probably a reference to the Supremes being booed when they were on an oldies show and came out singing disco - maybe they tried something from Mary Scherrie and Susaye.

topdiva1
10-01-2010, 08:33 PM
And to complicate matters even further we know that Mary and Cindy didn't actually sing on ANY singles after Florence left!


So is Mary a liar - you speak as if you REALLY KNOW - that is dangerous.

nomis
10-01-2010, 08:48 PM
Mary and Cindy only sang on temptation duet singles-no one on SDF has ever said different,It happened,its history build a bridge and move on they sang on album cuts,television and on stage..the notes in the supremes box set explains all this

MissLish
10-02-2010, 12:20 AM
So is Mary a liar - you speak as if you REALLY KNOW - that is dangerous.




Mary has lied before TopDiva; just as we all have. Telling lies doesn't necessairily make one a "liar"; however, habitually doing so, certainly does. No lives or limbs will be lost from participating in any of these threads; calm down dear; its only entertainment.

nomis
10-02-2010, 05:19 AM
yeah..when did Mary have to lie?Shes Miss Mary Wilson of the highest order-shes loved a wonderful life people love Miss Mary Wilson for who she is a good homegirl..just read a book on Warhol and the last thing he was reading in the hospital before he died was Dreamgirl..Her blend with Flo on "Im In Love" has to be the best harmony in the whole word..precise perfection from a living legend..Marys lived her life making other people happy,,I think many things about mary Wilson but she aint a lair !!!!

rubcale
10-02-2010, 07:20 AM
also, after the departure of Florence and HDH, motown felt that the Supremes would not recover so REFLECTIONS was planned to be the last single [at that time] and Flo was going to be brought back for a farewell tour or shows. Diana didnt feel she was ready and she also felt an obligation to Mary wilson so she stayed until her contract with the supremes [january 13 1970] was completed. i dont think diana would have stayed one way or another. her contract was up .

I thought it was "You Keep Me Hanging On?"

midnightman
10-02-2010, 06:48 PM
^ I don't think it was that song since Florence wasn't in danger of losing her spot...yet.

I think it goes to show that Shelly Berger played a part in making it sound that besides from the Temptations recordings that Mary and Cindy recorded any new songs with Diana - they didn't. Also if Mary said she wanted a break rather than contribute to "Love Child" due to Berry's demand then she had as much to do with the decision Berry went with.

Plus the Supremes needed a song like "Love Child" considering how Aretha Franklin's sudden rise to fame following the releases of "I Never Loved a Man" and "Respect" had suddenly made the Supremes old hat in the world of what was deemed "rock and roll music" at the time (especially in the soul market).

Back on "Someday", I don't think it would've failed either way. Each version of the song is nice.