Do you think if New Jack Swing never existed soul music would still be soulful?

[homebody]

The Laface era pretty much ruined everything meaning singing R&B over rap tracks like tyring to look "hard" while singing soul.Teddy Riley started the whole thing,I bet he regrets it but he didn't start the whole notion because even before "I want her" songs from full force or even some groups were adding hip hop to it but it wasn't going to the genre like actually trying to be like rap.I like Teena Marie "Square Biz" and "I feel for you" by Chaka Khan but the hip hop style R&B is too sexual I mean look at TLC their songs were a little over sexual and "hes mine" by mokenstef these are from the 90's and there have always been sex in rhythm and blues no doubt but to be overtly sexual instead of singing tradtional rhythm and blues maybe adding a little modern feeling but new jack swing was almost like hiphop or rather pop rap with singing on it and it sucked.music is evolving thats why I didn't complain about contemporary R&B meaning like in the early 80's because it still had real singing and over though it was more technical with synthesizers it still had a "soul felling" thats why when they say old school R&B 60's to 80's is because thats when R&B was the best but late 80's/90's was more urban and a little too sexual I mean some times they got mistaken for being rappers but I wish New jack swing never existed.

[paladin]

WTF ?:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes :

[soulster]

Soul music is still soulful. You give waaaaay too much attention to new jack swing. It was a fad that lasted a good four years. The first new jack artist, Keith Sweat, is still with us, and sound just as soulful as ever. Teddy Reily, the architect of new jack swing is still a very successful producer, writer, arranger, and artist. Babyface and L.A. Reid are record label executives. Reid is the CEO and chairman of the Epic Label Group. NJS produced many great artists and music. Bobby Brown, Guy, and Keith Sweat were all at the forefront of it. Artists like Michael Jackson benefited from their production.

Of course, all things must end, and NJS gave way to rap. R&B may have gotten married, but it still exists, happily, too. I may have had a problem early on with rapping in the middle of R&B songs, but i've gotten used to it. I'm 48, and grew up with the greats like Ray Charles, Lou Rawls, Nancy Wilson, Dinah Washington, Jackie Wilson, Al Green, Etta James, and the rest, but have always kept my ear to the street. I think it's better to, instead of limit oneself musically, to expand one's palate. There's just too much music out there to limit myself to one era or type of music. I am a traditional musician, and for musicians to remain creative, one must keep an open mind. That's how I can enjoy much of today's music in addition to all the stuff I grew up with.

[daddyacey]

:D @ Paladin
To understand the origin of NJS you have to go back to the late 70's early 80's. Then you had Rap/Hip-Hop which was based on R&B and Dance/Disco which was also based on R&B. Disco delt a fatal blow to the identity of R&B with the addition of "Pop like" elements ,aimed at a wider multi cultural audience. That along with the increased use of "sampling" gave rise to the NJS. NJS was the way that musicians were able to stay in the creative process and avoid being thrust into obscurity by the sampling craze. If you listen to NJS you will see that it basically uses the elements of R&B tracks that were used as samples , only played live. Those elements specificly being the beats and rythums of R&B ,being interpreted by persons that were musicians ,that did not want to be restricted by sampling and had creative ideas that went beyond the sounds that sampling offered. With the great Disco backlash of the late 70's-early 80's ,a R&B void was created. NJS was a return to musicians and writers being a major source in the creation of a R&B/Dance genre that was killed off in the general mass media with the death of R&B/Disco. R&B/Dance/Rap and Hip-Hop were created in the urban "Hood's" of N.Y.C and as they became popular in the mass commercial media, we in the "Hood" had already moved on to other developments. NJS being one of them. NJS developed in Harlem USA was the cultural expression of musicians that incorporated R&B/Dance and Rap in a live setting, not restricted by the use of samples and expanded by new beats and written materials.Many NJS tracks are based on R&B sources. For example En Vouge's "Hold On" ,based on JB's "Payback" bass line. Also to be considered is the technolgy of the period ,the drum machines ,keyboards ,midi. NJS also brought back the ballard which was totally abandoned in the Dance/Disco era. NJS is a genre that if anything, revived the presence of R&B/Dance. You can dance and listen to NJS ,unlike the crap that is around today As for sexual content ,well you have to consider that the generation that spawned NJS was the offspring of those who lived thru the sexual revolution of the late 60's -70's ,and just as we took it a bit further back then ,they in turn took it further still. In studying of the progression of Black music and music in general people tend to not consider the social aspect of society in general,the change in attitudes and it's influence on culture ,music ,film etc.
NJS is an offshoot of R&B ,to be considered as a product off a time period rather than compared to classic R&B. IMO...................Some NJS I like ,some NJS I don't. " one must keep an open mind. That's how I can enjoy much of today's music in addition to all the stuff I grew up with. "

[splanky]

As often the case, daddyacey nails it. I think it's a waste of time and energy trying to erase the past from our public
or even private memories. I don't like a musical style, I don't listen to it. What kind of made me curious about the original
posting is the repeated mentioning of music being too sexual...Huh?..Though I do not like the blatant use of profanity in
current hiphop, eg Lil Wayne and his peers, tell me please: When has popular music NOT been frequently sexual?...

[paladin]

Well thought out reply DA, I understand completely, but I'm in tune with Splanky on this one. I gave up a long time ago trying to figure out what someone is saying when their writing style is incoherent or thoughts intentionally fractured all over the place. I realize that people express themselves differently in this medium but I am not about to take a leap of faith and start contributing to threads that I suspect are not what they seem. I may be wrong but I've been down this road before and it didn't end well. Time will tell, but I will say this, I am constantly reminded of the stylings of The Three Billy Goats Gruff and MJ4ever and I can only hope that I'm wrong. This author may have legitimate concerns but most of the topics I've seen have a hint of sensationalism attached and we have quite a bit of that. See ya'll around.

PS: if you wished something never existed because it was sexual in nature, do you also regret the day you were born ?

[soulster]

Disco delt a fatal blow to the identity of R&B with the addition of "Pop like" elements ,aimed at a wider multi cultural audience.

But, that was being done all the way back to the early 60s with groups like The Drifters and The Shrirelles. It was nothing new by the 70s.

[soulster]

As often the case, daddyacey nails it. I think it's a waste of time and energy trying to erase the past from our public
or even private memories. I don't like a musical style, I don't listen to it. What kind of made me curious about the original
posting is the repeated mentioning of music being too sexual...Huh?..Though I do not like the blatant use of profanity in
current hiphop, eg Lil Wayne and his peers, tell me please: When has popular music NOT been frequently sexual?...

Well, I don't think daddy nailed it. Far from it, IMO.

Sexual? That is charge that could have been made in the 20s and 30s! There is nothing new under the sun.

[tamla617]

thats what splanky is saying about sex in music

[marv2]

"music is evolving thats why I didn't complain about contemporary R&B meaning like in the early 80's because it still had real singing and over though it was more technical with synthesizers it still had a "soul felling" thats why when they say old school R&B 60's to 80's is because thats when R&B was the best but late 80's/90's was more urban and a little too sexual I mean some times they got mistaken for being rappers but I wish New jack swing never existed."


This has to be the longest sentence I've ever read!

Marv

[marv2]

WTF ?:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes :

My thoughts exactly!

[marv2]

As often the case, daddyacey nails it. I think it's a waste of time and energy trying to erase the past from our public
or even private memories. I don't like a musical style, I don't listen to it. What kind of made me curious about the original
posting is the repeated mentioning of music being too sexual...Huh?..Though I do not like the blatant use of profanity in
current hiphop, eg Lil Wayne and his peers, tell me please: When has popular music NOT been frequently sexual?...

Great point Splanky! Remember the old 50's song "Sixty Minute Man" or how about "Rock With Me Annie"? It's always been a prominent subject matter in R&B / Rock Music.

[splanky]

Sorry, guys, household chores day:)...
Anyhoo, soulster, I couldn't see anything wrong with daddyacey's breakdown but I did
have a couple of problems with yours. First of all New Jack didn't give way to Rap, Rap
was already on the scene when it came along. As a matter of fact Rap as we know it today, and I'm not alluding to George Clinton, Isaac Hayes, Jamaican toasting or Muhammad Ali's poems as many are wont to, but in time, to a beat straight out rapping
was rapidly becoming popular in the street, at block parties and house parties before any of the first string charters got a record deal. I'd come outta the army and back to New York and I said to myself Wow, this sh*t is really catching on. I was a hard core funker then but I enjoyed the skills of the battling MCs backed by nothing but a guy behind a turntable. This was in 1978/79. Later in 1980 the singer now known as Angie Stone was in an all female crew called The Sequence hit with Funk You Up which I cannot hear without remembering she used to live in a housing project only a steps away from my cousin in Columbia, SC. She was Angie B. then. Second, New Jack lasted
a little longer than the four years you gave it. Charted hits of various artists put the figure at more like eight or nine years. I was never a really big fan of the genre but I did like some of it and I think it deserves it's respect and place in the development timeline
of black music in this country and popular music in general...

[smark21]

Well, I don't think daddy nailed it. Far from it, IMO.

Sexual? That is charge that could have been made in the 20s and 30s! There is nothing new under the sun.

Or Prince's lyrics some of the most explicit predated the rise of NJS by a few years.

[paladin]

NJS was some of the liveliest "club music" ever made, Keith Sweat's I Want her Album was simply brilliant, Johnny Kemp's "Just Got Paid" had people jamming the dance floor in droves as did many of Guys/Teddy Riley's efforts. Like others I liked some of it, others I didn't but the impact of NJS was significant, its just another form of musical evolution. If you wait long enough it'll change again, like tommorrow........

Madison Time-Bus Stop-Electric Slide, that ought to cover 50 years of evolution...............

[soulster]

have a couple of problems with yours. First of all New Jack didn't give way to Rap,

No, I did not say that! You misunderstood! What I meant is that rap was dominant. The fad of NJS fell out of favor, probably because rap was so popular. Trust me! I know better! I was in high school when Sugarhill Gang and Kurtis Blow were just starting to get national attention. That was in 1979.


Second, New Jack lasted
a little longer than the four years you gave it. Charted hits of various artists put the figure at more like eight or nine years. I was never a really big fan of the genre but I did like some of it and I think it deserves it's respect and place in the development timeline

Examples?

[homebody]

I guess you right that maybe everything happens,new jack swing fell out of favor and then hip hip soul came out after that no one ever dissed another sub genre like they did disco,new jack swing cause some rappers got into a fight in the early 90's I over this.

[soulster]

I guess you right that maybe everything happens,new jack swing fell out of favor and then hip hip soul came out after that no one ever dissed another sub genre like they did disco,new jack swing cause some rappers got into a fight in the early 90's I over this.

Ummmm...rap is still heavily dissed by all kinds of people, many of whom are on this forum!

Rappers did not start killing each other over rap styles. Those guys were thugs, pure and simple. Any disagreements on rap styles, like the East Coast vs. West Coast thing was all for play.

[splanky]

soulster, maybe I did misunderstand you about your statement "New Jack gave way to rap"....anyway like I said I've never been a big fan of the genre though I did like Keith
Sweat's I Want Her. Then too some stuff from Guy [[Aaron Hall reminded me of Charlie Wilson of The Gap Band), Bobby Brown, Bell Biv Davoe, Troop and my favorite of the genre Tone Tony Toni [[ sorry I can't remember exactly the spelling). I remember back
in the 90's being at the African American Day Parade in Harlem and seeing a bunch of
young girls go bazerk bumrushing and screaming behind this one float and I wondered
"who the hell is on that?'" When it stopped at a cross street I saw it was Montell Jordan
who hit with This Is How We Do It. Funny thing I remember most about that day is I was the only one among the crowd I was standing in who cheered George Clinton. He
smiled and flashed the P right back at me...

[soulster]

Well Splank, can't always blame the young folks for not knowing who the pioneers are.

I wasn't fanatical about any music of the early 90s. I just listened to what I liked, be it rap, rock, pop, or NJS. To me, it was all just music.

[splanky]

soulster said:

Well Splank, can't always blame the young folks for not knowing who the pioneers are.

That's true, poppy, but I was standing with a group of people my age and older[[:...

[juicefree20]

No, I don't think so at all.

if you think back to what was said about much of the music of the 70s which we regards as classics, many critics & lay persons labeled that music as "crap" & not of the standard set by the music of the 50s & 60s.

The truth of the matter is that each generation finds & or creates music which sings to their hearts & sensibilities. It's not their grand parents music, it'snot their mother, father or uncle Joe's music. It's their music & that's how it's been since the day of the bobbysoxers.

Though few want to admit it, it was the same for most of us during the Disco era. We wanted something fresh, something new & a lot of us were seduced by those swirling strings & 2minute intros & some of the most insanely vapid lyrics imaginable.

In truth, this was a natural progression or regression if you will. And truthfully, most music has always been a reflection of the times which birthed it. We're looking at 2 generations of damn near everything being dumbed-down. 2 generations of kids whom have been assaulted with inane, plastic crap at every corner. Actually, I'd argue that it was my generation, the DJ as a singular producer which has contributed mightily to what we see today.

I'd argue that some of the DJs/producers took music & began producing music based upon their own particular bent & sensibilities. Notice how many "Disco Divas" gained prominence during the dance era from the 70 forward? And their producers were all men, many of whom took away the emphasis from the male & placed it squarely on the female powerhouses.

Once rap entered the picture & even more than that,the workstation which allowed guys who were more into grooves than melody & harmonies to become wildly famous, the die was somewhat cast. I believe that the problem stems from music becoming more hook & groove oriented than it is melodic. If you listen to the average popular producer discuss music today, rarely will you hear them speak in terms of melody being the foundation. First & foremost, it's always the beat that's discussed. Melody & harmony seem to be secondary considerations these days.Which goes back tomy dumbing-down theory.

Listen to many of the harmonies or melodies these days & I'm referring to MAINSTREAM hits. Most of them are so damn simplistic, that they make "Mary Had A Little Lamb" sound like a Beethoven symphony. Listen to the crap by Nicky Minaj or the odious warblings by Lil' Wayne or even Kanye & that speaks for itself. At least Kanye turns a clever phrase & I can appreciate that.

But just as with the insanity of many Disco songs, these kids today are simply reflecting what society's become & computers & the ability to construct a beat with a hook & some sing-songy vocal phrases seem to be enough to create a hit.

I'd argue that if times were different, the music would be different as well. But in an era which has given us such meaningful shows like "The Biggest Loser" & "Jersey Shore", vapidity rules the day. With various "entertainment" mediums constantly & continually pushing the envelop further down into the sewer, this shouldn't be surprising in the least, but rather somewhat a self-fulfilling prophecy.

If you eat nothing but garbage all day for over a span of decades, there should be an expectation of at least a little constipation settling in.

[soulster]

I don't totally agree with your personal opinion concerning the general quality of today's music, Juice, one factor that is responsible for the state of today's music is the almost non-existent budget today's music makers have. They are almost forced to utilize computers to save money. Not to say that the people creating music today have little or no talent, but assembling a song in Pro Tools and the like is so damned fast and easy that anyone could do it on their laptop.