Article: The death of R & B groups

[tsull1]

Interesting take here:

http://www.npr.org/2011/08/18/139748186/the-death-of-r-b-groups

I listened to the link on group, Ahmir, the most popular soul group on YouTube apparently. My take on them: The singing is fine, the music and arrangement not so much. I'm tired of computerization in my music, no definition of horns, drums, and guitars, just noise.

Someone needs to bring back the music first, then add the front men and women groups. MFSB and Funk Brothers helped make the world go round in a good way.

[RossHolloway]

Did the author of that article just notice this disappearance? This trend started happening over 10 years ago for what ever reason. I just think music both evolves and goes in cycles. I think people just crave new and inventive artists, regardless of it's a solo act or group. We're just in a moment where solo singers and rappers are the thing and they seem to collaborate on each others projects way more than at any other time in music [[which I have no problem with). Give it some time and I'm sure the music scene will once again be dominated by groups, but I also think those groups have to come with something new and different than the traditional groups of the past.

[ralpht]

Tsull,
You might want to check out Abraham Wilson's "Smooth" double CD found on CDBaby or Amazon. We did our best to stick to
"old school" production. I'm just sayin'..................

[soulster]

I'd like to see a return to the time when the music itself - not the vocals, were important.

[homebody]

I think new jack swing ruined R&B I mean yes its danceable but it also led to hip hop soul which was more sexual.

[marv2]

Interesting take here:

http://www.npr.org/2011/08/18/139748186/the-death-of-r-b-groups

I listened to the link on group, Ahmir, the most popular soul group on YouTube apparently. My take on them: The singing is fine, the music and arrangement not so much. I'm tired of computerization in my music, no definition of horns, drums, and guitars, just noise.

Someone needs to bring back the music first, then add the front men and women groups. MFSB and Funk Brothers helped make the world go round in a good way.



I agree! They could start by bringing music education back to Public Schools.

[smark21]

Oddly enough, in this week's Billboard top ten album charts, making its debut on the chart is a teen r and b quartet called Mindless Behavior. Here's the story:

http://new.music.yahoo.com/blogs/chart_watch/74416/week-ending-sept-25-2011-albums-three-records-fall/

[soulster]

I agree! They could start by bringing music education back to Public Schools.

In this political climate? Good luck with that! If the radical right keeps getting into office, you can probably kiss all arts in schools goodbye.

[soulster]

I think new jack swing ruined R&B I mean yes its danceable but it also led to hip hop soul which was more sexual.

Hip hop was around looong before new jack swing. New jack swing is just an off-shoot of hip-hop blended with R&B.

[tsull1]

I still think it starts with the instruments -- and I'm not talking about computers and synthesizers. There's a huge difference. It's like tasting home made food vs. fast food. There's no comparison, one is great, the fast food is awful and bad for you.

You need to have real horns played by real musicians. Real guitars, real bass, real drums, real keyboards -- played by real, talented, experienced musicians. I'll never waver from that. Yes, I have some CD's with much computerization and other stuff. Sometimes it's OK -- like fast food -- but it shouldn't be all the time. Get back to real music ... then add the quality voices.

[tsull1]

Tsull,
You might want to check out Abraham Wilson's "Smooth" double CD found on CDBaby or Amazon. We did our best to stick to
"old school" production. I'm just sayin'..................

Listening to it on Amazon, good stuff from Mr. Wilson ... I'll be getting this.

[ms_m]

I still think it starts with the instruments -- and I'm not talking about computers and synthesizers. There's a huge difference. It's like tasting home made food vs. fast food. There's no comparison, one is great, the fast food is awful and bad for you.

You need to have real horns played by real musicians. Real guitars, real bass, real drums, real keyboards -- played by real, talented, experienced musicians. I'll never waver from that. Yes, I have some CD's with much computerization and other stuff. Sometimes it's OK -- like fast food -- but it shouldn't be all the time. Get back to real music ... then add the quality voices.


So I'm guessing the following are not nourishing to you since synths and or computers are often featured in their music [[and THEY are the ones playing those dreadful things)...LOL

Stevie Wonder
Earth, Wind & Fire
George Duke
Chick Corea
Joe Zawinul
Herbie Hancock
Michael Jackson
Janet Jackson
Lenny Kravitz
Santana
RONNIE MCNEIR

[soulster]

I still think it starts with the instruments -- and I'm not talking about computers and synthesizers. There's a huge difference. It's like tasting home made food vs. fast food. There's no comparison, one is great, the fast food is awful and bad for you.

You need to have real horns played by real musicians. Real guitars, real bass, real drums, real keyboards -- played by real, talented, experienced musicians. I'll never waver from that. Yes, I have some CD's with much computerization and other stuff. Sometimes it's OK -- like fast food -- but it shouldn't be all the time. Get back to real music ...

Yup yup! However, for me, the vocals aren't quite that important. There have been some great songs with lousy singers. "Everlasting Love" by Carl carlton comes to mind.

[ms_m]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyWMK7f5f6g

...and Mo also is a gifted bass player, trumpet player and a virtuoso on classical piano

All the real instruments in the world would sound like crap without a true musician

[ms_m]

“What is music to you? What would you be without music? Music is everything. Nature is music [[cicadas in the tropical night). The sea is music, the wind is music. The rain drumming on the roof and the storm raging in the sky are music. Music is the oldest entity. The scope of music is immense and infinite. It is the ‘esperanto’ of the world.”

Duke Ellington


Tsull, music is a highly subjective art form. For me, it’s all about “feeling” either I feel it or I don’t. It doesn’t matter if the person is playing a synthesizer or a Bosendorfer; a Ludwig Drum kit or their mamas, pots and pans.

I’ve had this conversation so many times I really don’ want to repeat it but the truth is, if you don’t like something, don’t listen but anyone who thinks good, great and awesome music is dead....is nuts or deaf. IMHO

[tsull1]

Ms M, I like those artists you mentioned, but I can't take some of the over-synthed/computerized stuff. I was listening to a Spinners late 80's album the other day, long after Thom Bell and MFSB were ditched. It just wasn't the same. To me it wasn't. I know others have different feelings about it, so be it. I can take some in small doses. I like Michael Jackson, but I liked the Motown stuff better.

I guess because I played tenor sax all through high school and my dad was an avid jazz fan. I got hooked on real instruments and an authentic style. It doesn't mean everyone has to have that, but I think it's a better sound.

At the Hall & Oates show I went to last month, Daryl was really getting on the sound guys and one guy kept having to go on stage to tweak things -- in the middle of songs. John didn't like the sound either. About song five they got the sound right. A friend of mine who didn't go and doesn't have much of an ear asked me, "Could you tell the difference?" I said, "Damn straight! The concert really got good after that. The tin-sound went away."

Not bragging, but I take pride in my musical ear. It's not perfect but I know what I like and what I don't. Different strokes for different folks. People listen to music in different ways. Like I said, I can take some of the unauthentic stuff, but it's a short-cut.

I was raised on real instruments played by real people. I'm biased towards that -- even if Stevie Wonder wants to start punching buttons. I think authentic music is bigger than even Stevie Wonder and I'm not going to change on that.

[soulster]

But, you can't beat stuff like "Superstition"!

[ms_m]

I never asked you to change Tsull and as far as who you grew up with, I will bet you a dime to a doughnut I'm older than you.

You're missing the point Tsull .

Your musical taste is your musical taste and no one would ever dispute that but implying an entire genre, or musical expression or whatever sucks simply because you don't like it is not being fair to many extremely talented musicians out here.

You didn't say you like Stevie Wonder but the implication was, synthesized music sucks... even though Stevie is the king of synthesizers. You didn't say you liked Herbie Hancock but the implication was, computerized music sucks.....do you have any idea how far back Herbie's love of music and computers go?

Tsull, it's not what you say sometimes but the way you say it....without even realizing or possibly thinking you do a lot to undermine what a lot of us out here are trying to promote.....I'm just sayin'

[daddyacey]

R&B Groups??? There aint been any R&B "GROUPS" ,as in self contained instrumental and vocal since what? ,The Time? ,SOS Band ,Atlantic Starr , or male singing groups, Boys To Men ,New Addition ,Guy ,Blackstreet or the only competant vocal instumental group worthy of merit ,MINT-CONDITION . Them boys are Baadd , period................... Girl groups,??? not since S.W.V. ,Destinys Child and the stellar En-Vouge. Todays mind set is "all about me". The concept of the "Collective" group has given way to the "Calabo" of "Me's". Idol /X-Factor/Americas Got Talent ,"ME"....SAD.

[soulster]

Except for the retro 60s R&B bands like the Dap Kings, the only self-contained band that has even come close to R&B is Maroon5.

[tsull1]

Ms. M, I said I have many albums with synth music, but like fast food, I can't listen to it all the time.

The reason I admire real musicians is because of the hard work that went into it. I'm not sure what instruments you've played, but when I practiced the sax for a long time, my mouth hurt and my head hurt from all the thinking of following the sheet music. It took WORK.

Now I know I couldn't arrange anything that Stevie Wonder put up there, but I do know that if someone told me to punch a button labeled "trumpets" I could do that. But could I play the trumpet like Miles Davis? No. Why? Because Miles is a genius and obviously worked hard at it.

I know you love synth music Ms. M. so be it, but it will be a sad day when a concert is a person punching buttons with no musicians and no singers and we've lost authenticity. I'm not sure why you embrace that and get on people who do not embrace that. I know others who love electronic, house, synth, so be it. I don't and I don't understand why you always jump me when I say I don't like synth music. You're not changing my mind on it, I like real, authentic music best.

Yes, I have some Michael Jackson, tons of EWF, plenty of synth music. And in comparing EWF before they found synth and afterwards, I opt for the authentic early stuff. With MJ, I liked the real music before the synth. It's just the way it is. I'm not sure why you always get on my case about this. For the last time: I favor authentic music with real horns, real musicians, and real talent. How in the freaking world is that an insult to anyone?!!

[ms_m]

I play piano Tsull. At least I use to. Don't tickle the ivories anymore because I really need a new piano and that's pretty low on my things to buy list.

Tsull, many musicians or what you call "real musicians" are some of the most creative people on the planet to me. A lot of the ones I've been fortunate enough to know are always looking for news ways to create. If that means adding a tech sound, that's what they do.

Again, music is subjective. I know straight ahead jazz critics that think and or thought bop was crap and there are people here on SDF who cringe at the sound of smooth jazz.

People like, what they like but I personally believe in giving musicians the freedom to create in any way they see fit. I may like it, I may not but I will always respect what they do as long as it's coming from a place of honesty.

So let's agree to disagree. You do you and I'll do me.

Take care Tsull, it's always a pleasure sparring with you.:)

[tsull1]

Thanks for the nice reply to my heated response :>). In my earlier posts I didn't mean to insult those who put the synth in their music. However, I think we are losing something more and more each year when we go away from instruments and musicians. I have more than my share of albums with synth/computerization in it. I'm listening to some later Rose Royce right now, like it a lot, plenty of computerization in it.

I did buy Herbie Hancock's tremendous album of Joni Mitchell songs, liked it very much. Not sure how much computerization he put in it, didn't sound like much. It's one of my favorite albums.

Peace. :>)

* Edit: This is an example of a flat-out unreal song that could be better with a real drummer [[they're lip syncing here ... so be it) ... we have one of the greatest groups of all-time with a flat-out, unreal lead in Ali Ollie ... the disco/computer drum beat is OK, but what if a Funk Brother or someone similar was pounding those skins? :>)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPUsQDm-HQY&feature=BFa&list=PL82057C5932849973&lf=rellist

[soulster]

Stevie used real horn sections until the 80s.

No need to get upset, Tsull1! It's all about opinions, and yours is as valid as anyone's.

[ms_m]

I have more than my share of albums with synth/computerization in it. I'm listening to some later Rose Royce right now, like it a lot, plenty of computerization in it.

Exactly! Now we're on the same page. Simply because it's a synth or computerized doesn't necessarily make it bad. It's about the musicians behind it.

A lot of the [[crapy) stuff you're talking about is not created by true musicians, They couldn't play an instrument if their life depended on it. They can't read music and wouldn't know a half note from a torn piece of paper.

That's one of the differences in what we grew up with and what you hear on the radio today...but with that said, the music you want can not be found on terrestrial radio as a general rule. Most of the time you will not even find it in a main stream brick and mortar store but that doesn't mean real music or good music isn't out here. It simply means you [[collective you) are not hearing it most of the time... but it IS out there....trust:cool:

[stephanie]

The soul groups are still out there they are not being promoted! I am not fan of synth but when it is done right it is compelling like Roger and Zapp, Thomas Dolby, John Paul Jones, Devo, Kraftwerk, Gary Numan....etc. My gut tells me well I KNOW these guys dont RELY on it they are true musicians and can go back to regular music when they need to [[Stevie Wonder being a prime example) Some groups it was their thing like Devo and Kraftwerk but they didnt last long and it didnt become a genre. KC and the Sunshine Band and James Brown had the same sound but the instruments [[horns, bass..etc) were so compelling and the stage shows were so good you didnt care. I cant even imagine Chaka and Rufus or some other acts going synth! Giorgio Moroder comes to mind when I hear I Feel Love by Donna Summer but the mixing was so awesome it was a musical journey. Autotune and this stuff that is out now is so juvenile that even synth has become ugly to me I guess its cheaper for the record company. Rock has not died they still promote IT I think RandB should be promoted.

[juicefree20]

For better or worse, it comes down to economics & education.

For example, many of us hate the idea of synths & electronics infiltrating the music & I can understand that. However, who employed synths more than Stevie Wonder when he was crafting all of those classics from 1971 forward? How about Herbie Hancock & about 100 other great groups?

So it's not so much a matter of too much electronics, but I'd argue that it's a matter of knowing & understanding how to play & utilize those electronics effectively. In the hands of an ARTIST like Stevie, those synths were like a soul that breathed. Take that same TONTO setup & put them in the hands of someone who's not a true practitioner of the art & you get a totally different result.

Perhaps it's more a matter of skill & execution because I've never heard anyone complain about the way that Stevie, Bernie Worrell & the other cats used that same technology to perfection.

Just a thought.

[soulster]

I cant even imagine Chaka and Rufus or some other acts going synth!

Actually, they did! The addition of of David "Hawk" Wollinski in the late 70s had a lot to do with that. They put out an album "Party 'Till You're Broke" in the early 80s [[without Chaka) that was typical dance R&B of the time, and, aside from perhaps the drums and some guitar, their final hit "Ain't Nobody" was almost all keyboards.


For better or worse, it comes down to economics & education.

For example, many of us hate the idea of synths & electronics infiltrating the music & I can understand that. However, who employed synths more than Stevie Wonder when he was crafting all of those classics from 1971 forward? How about Herbie Hancock & about 100 other great groups?

So it's not so much a matter of too much electronics, but I'd argue that it's a matter of knowing & understanding how to play & utilize those electronics effectively. In the hands of an ARTIST like Stevie, those synths were like a soul that breathed. Take that same TONTO setup & put them in the hands of someone who's not a true practitioner of the art & you get a totally different result.

Perhaps it's more a matter of skill & execution because I've never heard anyone complain about the way that Stevie, Bernie Worrell & the other cats used that same technology to perfection.

Just a thought.

And a thought that's on the the mark!