Stereo "Love Child": Where's the snare slam on the intro???

[soulster]

On both stereo mixes of "Love Child", the snare slam is pretty much gone. It is definitely not what the producers were looking for. I have no idea why it's not there on the stereo mix.

Are there any Motown engineers who can give us a clue as to why?

[Kraig Diesel]

Never noticed it until you said it now...yeah, it's awkward and missing that punch that kicks off the song....

[stopinthenameoflove]

the best stereo version of love child I have is on a CD single for 'The Best Years of My Life'. I think it was promoting the Forever Diana box set. Now that set has been panned for it's sound issues - but on this single the snare drum intro REALLY jumps out!

[soulster]

the best stereo version of love child I have is on a CD single for 'The Best Years of My Life'. I think it was promoting the Forever Diana box set. Now that set has been panned for it's sound issues - but on this single the snare drum intro REALLY jumps out!


That's because they used the MONO mix on that box, which has it. What i'm wondering about is why the stereo mix doesn't have it.

BTW, that box is so horrible that I got rid of it as soon as I bought it. It sounds like someone played the mono tapes on a badly aligned stereo tape deck.

[stopinthenameoflove]

That's because they used the MONO mix on that box, which has it. What i'm wondering about is why the stereo mix doesn't have it.

BTW, that box is so horrible that I got rid of it as soon as I bought it. It sounds like someone played the mono tapes on a badly aligned stereo tape deck.

I just listed again on my good hi-fi - and of course you are right!. And having looked out the box for the first time in tears, how plasticy is it? Ugh!

[stephanie]

Be careful Soulster someone will accuse you of saying Diana Ross is not a good producer!

[soulster]

Be careful Soulster someone will accuse you of saying Diana Ross is not a good producer!

Artists are rarely ever capable of producing their own compilations. In the case of Ross, the problem is that she does not have technical experience for finding the best tapes or making decisions about sound quality. The proof is that box.

[soulster]

I just listed again on my good hi-fi - and of course you are right!. And having looked out the box for the first time in tears, how plasticy is it? Ugh!

Not only that, many of the songs are faded early, probably in an effort to cover up the fact that bad tapes were used. The sound is dull, probably the result of trying to use EQ to filter out the hiss from the high-generation tapes. There's extra compression and riding gain. The list goes on.

If I were to assemble a boxed set of my recorded legacy, and I did not have the technical chops, I would pick someone who has a good track record for reissues. There were many out there at the time. Again, Bill Inglot would have been a good choice, as he had been working on Motown catalogs and getting their vault in shape. Lee Hershberg, Joseph Palmaccio, Suha Gur, Danny Cavacco, among several others, that could have done the job right.

[robbert]

Didn't buy the box, didn't miss out. Good.

Are we talking about the same snare drum hit here? Mine is at about 00:46, between Diana's "...take a look at me!..." and "..."Started my life... I get the impression others' hit is in the intro...?

Deke Richards [[co-writer/producer) of Love Child has extensively written regarding 'his snare drum item'. The one at 00:46, that is. And how he tells Berry Gordy how he [[BG) forgot to emphasize that hit in Berry's version of the mix. . Deke's contributions must be somewhere in the SDF vault.

In the 45 mix [[mono) the 00:46 hit on the snare drum is loud and dry/sharp - and it makes my day, every time I play the song. In most stero versions, if not all stereo versions, the hit is there, but is not loud enough in the mix to make the same impression as it does in the mono mix. Remember it was 1968 and well mixed stereo albums were less important than hit singles.

[jillfoster]

Not only that, many of the songs are faded early, probably in an effort to cover up the fact that bad tapes were used. The sound is dull, probably the result of trying to use EQ to filter out the hiss from the high-generation tapes. There's extra compression and riding gain. The list goes on.

If I were to assemble a boxed set of my recorded legacy, and I did not have the technical chops, I would pick someone who has a good track record for reissues. There were many out there at the time. Again, Bill Inglot would have been a good choice, as he had been working on Motown catalogs and getting their vault in shape. Lee Hershberg, Joseph Palmaccio, Suha Gur, Danny Cavacco, among several others, that could have done the job right.

Sorry, but I think Suha Gur's work sucks in a really BIG way. He really fucked up Flo's album. And don't get me started on what he did to the Number ones CD, The horns on the Happening are like nails on a chalkboard, heaven's to mergatroid that man needs to see an otologist. Gavin Lurssen, on the other hand, walks on water in the reissue department. His work on the Joey Heatherton album as well as the Olivia Newton John Greatest hits was phenomenal, and i'm SO glad that Hip-o gave the Grass Roots "Leaving It All Behind" to him, it's such a good album, and one of the best reissues in my collection [[I have copy #1, BTW! )

[soulster]

Sorry, but I think Suha Gur's work sucks in a really BIG way. He really fucked up Flo's album. And don't get me started on what he did to the Number ones CD, The horns on the Happening are like nails on a chalkboard, heaven's to mergatroid that man needs to see an otologist.

Suha Gur is only the engineer. The producer is the one who tells the engineer what to do. Do not blame the engineer. It's the producer's fault. Any producer will tell you that. The other things that affect the sound are the converters.

[kenneth]

Sorry, but I think Suha Gur's work sucks in a really BIG way. He really fucked up Flo's album. And don't get me started on what he did to the Number ones CD, The horns on the Happening are like nails on a chalkboard, heaven's to mergatroid that man needs to see an otologist. Gavin Lurssen, on the other hand, walks on water in the reissue department. His work on the Joey Heatherton album as well as the Olivia Newton John Greatest hits was phenomenal, and i'm SO glad that Hip-o gave the Grass Roots "Leaving It All Behind" to him, it's such a good album, and one of the best reissues in my collection [[I have copy #1, BTW! )

Okay Jillfoster...you better qualify your liking a Joey Heatherton album...I mean, really...! Connie Stevens, Olivia Newton-John, I can understand...but Joey Heatherton? Explain that one to me, please!

[jillfoster]

Okay Jillfoster...you better qualify your liking a Joey Heatherton album...I mean, really...! Connie Stevens, Olivia Newton-John, I can understand...but Joey Heatherton? Explain that one to me, please!

Oh please!!! She's a really good singer! Much better than Connie Stevens, to be sure. and the album is really good, great production:
the song starts at 2:05-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xa9mcKKzV0U

[marv2]

Be careful Soulster someone will accuse you of saying Diana Ross is not a good producer!


Aww, Stephanie, you know Diane is good at everything.

[marv2]

Artists are rarely ever capable of producing their own compilations. In the case of Ross, the problem is that she does not have technical experience for finding the best tapes or making decisions about sound quality. The proof is that box.

But they showed her producing her record "Mirror, Mirror" that time on "20/20". Remember that?

[marv2]

Yeah, they are all nice, but none of them can compare to the one and only........Lola Heatherton!!!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qn2zTMJn4Fc&feature=related

[smark21]

Well here's a mono vs. stereo vs. Vegas versions to compare:

Mono--takes 45 seconds for the music to start: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zG4-_98uDS8

Stereo: Another intro to wade through: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4Ib36_gTJU

From the Farewell show: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plRjfnqT6eI

[soulster]

But they showed her producing her record "Mirror, Mirror" that time on "20/20". Remember that?

No, because i'm not a crazed fan who hangs on everything she does. I do not remember ever seeing that broadcast.

I'm not saying she's a bad record producer. Her work on RCA is evidence that she is capable as long as she doesn't become overindulgent, as she usually does. But, she had help from her engineer Ray Chew. However, when it comes to reissue packages, it's a whole 'nother thing. It's not original material, and requires someone with knowledge of the more technical stuff of working with old tapes.

[marv2]

[QUOTE=soulster;62880]No, because i'm not a crazed fan who hangs on everything she does. I do not remember ever seeing that broadcast.


Look, Soulster, I was making a joke.....being sarcastic. I know Diane ain't no producer.

[ladonna]

No, because i'm not a crazed fan who hangs on everything she does. I do not remember ever seeing that broadcast.

I'm not saying she's a bad record producer. Her work on RCA is evidence that she is capable as long as she doesn't become overindulgent, as she usually does. But, she had help from her engineer Ray Chew. However, when it comes to reissue packages, it's a whole 'nother thing. It's not original material, and requires someone with knowledge of the more technical stuff of working with old tapes.



Where is the "snare slam" that is so controversial. LOL! Seriously, an entire thread devoted to this? I've gotta hear this now, when does the "snare slam" take place on the YouTube mono version of this? Can someone pinpoint the time frame, for me? Thank you.

[soulster]

[QUOTE=soulster;62880]No, because i'm not a crazed fan who hangs on everything she does. I do not remember ever seeing that broadcast.


Look, Soulster, I was making a joke.....being sarcastic. I know Diane ain't no producer.

Huh? Chill! I took no offense at what you wrote.

[soulster]

Where is the "snare slam" that is so controversial. LOL! Seriously, an entire thread devoted to this? I've gotta hear this now, when does the "snare slam" take place on the YouTube mono version of this? Can someone pinpoint the time frame, for me? Thank you.

I'm in the middle of recording an album on this computer. Give me a few minutes and i'll put up a sample of what I mean.

[soulster]

Here's the sample of the intro to the mono single mix of "Love Child". This is the way it is on the 45.

http://db.tt/5K14uNe

By the way, this was taken from the first Hitsville USA box, disc three. It was mastered correctly by Bill Inglot and Dan Hersh.

[marv2]

[QUOTE=marv2;62881]

Huh? Chill! I took no offense at what you wrote.


Ok cool then.

[marv2]

Here's the sample of the intro to the mono single mix of "Love Child". This is the way it is on the 45.

http://db.tt/5K14uNe


You know it is kind of funny that this subject came up. I hadn't really notice the abscence of the stark drumbeat just before the vocals begin on the mono version until. My parents had the album and we , the kids had the 45 which I now understand was the mono version. I have heard the version on the album more than the 45 version and I can tell now where that small part of the recording was smoothed out on the album. Both sound good to me.

[soulster]

You know it is kind of funny that this subject came up. I hadn't really notice the abscence of the stark drumbeat just before the vocals begin on the mono version until. My parents had the album and we , the kids had the 45 which I now understand was the mono version. I have heard the version on the album more than the 45 version and I can tell now where that small part of the recording was smoothed out on the album. Both sound good to me.

With most 60s and early 70s mono mixes, they weren't just mono, but the mono mixes were mixed very differently than the stereo. I could pull up many examples of this stuff. I mean, did you remember that the bass cuts out on the intro of "You Can't Hurry Love", that the "Hey hey hey's" on The Temptations' "My Girl" are buried on the stereo mix, or that "Ball Of Confusion" uses different vocal tracks in spots, and the effects are different in the mono 45? How about how the Jackson 5's "Who's Lovin' You" on the 45 cuts out the rest of the brothers and the strings are waaay down in the mix...and runs longer. Jimmy Ruffin's "I've Passed This Way Before" in stereo is missing the entire orchestra and background singers.

In short, people who only listened to Motown albums aren't even hearing the hits! Don't let me get started on Atlantic, Stax, or even the Beatles!

[kenneth]

With most 60s and early 70s mono mixes, they weren't just mono, but the mono mixes were mixed very differently than the stereo. I could pull up many examples of this stuff. I mean, did you remember that the bass cuts out on the intro of "You Can't Hurry Love", that the "Hey hey hey's" on The Temptations' "My Girl" are buried on the stereo mix, or that "Ball Of Confusion" uses different vocal tracks in spots, and the effects are different in the mono 45? How about how the Jackson 5's "Who's Lovin' You" on the 45 cuts out the rest of the brothers and the strings are waaay down in the mix...and runs longer. Jimmy Ruffin's "I've Passed This Way Before" in stereo is missing the entire orchestra and background singers.

In short, people who only listened to Motown albums aren't even hearing the hits! Don't let me get started on Atlantic, Stax, or even the Beatles!

I always liked the 45 mixes best, and even when I was young I knew the difference. The Mono mixes of the Marvelettes "You're My Remedy" and "Danger Heartbreak Dead Ahead" were far punchier and urgent sounding than the Stereo LP mixes. "Remedy" also had kind of an echo/reverb placed onto Wanda Young's lead vocal, and "Danger" had a lot more of Ivy Jo Hunter's great piano work way up front.

At least the earlier "Greatest Hits" LPs were better than the later "Anthologys." Those contained really muddy sounding mixes far inferior than on the prior LPs. I guess the Powers That Be knew we would buy anything. Unfortunately, I think they were right about that a lot of the time!

[jillfoster]

and holy Toledo... the mono single mix of the Mamas and the Papas "Words Of Love" makes the stereo version sound like ca-ca. Since Cass' voice is kept at full volume on the last note till the cold ending, and the stereo mix fades the last note, taking away every drop of it's punch. If that was Lou Adler's idea to fade that, he must have been drinking that day.

[kenneth]

and holy Toledo... the mono single mix of the Mamas and the Papas "Words Of Love" makes the stereo version sound like ca-ca. Since Cass' voice is kept at full volume on the last note till the cold ending, and the stereo mix fades the last note, taking away every drop of it's punch. If that was Lou Adler's idea to fade that, he must have been drinking that day.

Love that song! One of my favorites by the Mamas and Papas. Well, Jillfoster, I may just have to check out that Joey Heatherton LP. You and I seem to like a lot of the same music.

[smark21]

Here's the sample of the intro to the mono single mix of "Love Child". This is the way it is on the 45.

http://db.tt/5K14uNe

By the way, this was taken from the first Hitsville USA box, disc three. It was mastered correctly by Bill Inglot and Dan Hersh.

When I bought that box set, it was the first time I had heard that version/mix of Love Child and it made a difference. Has a lot more punch than the stereo version and when I uploaded songs to my first ipod years later, I made sure that was the version of Love Child that would be on it. Going by the responses in this thread, it's interesting what people hear and don't hear when they listen to a recording.

[soulster]

and holy Toledo... the mono single mix of the Mamas and the Papas "Words Of Love" makes the stereo version sound like ca-ca. Since Cass' voice is kept at full volume on the last note till the cold ending, and the stereo mix fades the last note, taking away every drop of it's punch. If that was Lou Adler's idea to fade that, he must have been drinking that day.

Most people today really bash the stereo mix of "I Saw Her Again", and I know why, but that is the one Mamas and Papas song I prefer in stereo.

[Sotosound]

I'm guessing that the snare drum on [[I think) the fifth beat of the intro of "Love Child" is missing from the stereo mix because it's not part of the original multitrack and was, instead, added later during the mixing of the single.

If it had been on the original multitrack it would probably have turned up on the new mix used on Number Ones. Ditto the stab of horns punched in at the start of the single mix of "You Can't Hurry Love".

I say this because some of the remixes on Number Ones seem like attempts to bring some of the elements of the original single mixes into a more modern 21st century context. The Number Ones mix of "Reflections" brings the electric piano right up front as per the single. The Number Ones mix of "Someday We'll Be Together" EQ's the bass line in the same warm and all-encompassing way as the original single whereas the original stereo mix doesn't do this, making the intro on that version sound a bit empty. The snare drum and stab of horns are, however, notable in their absence.

I also think that some of the electronic sounds on "Reflections" weren't on the original multitrack. OK, they ended up in both the original mono and stereo mixes, but if you listen to the new mix used on Number Ones there's a bit of phasing / flanging where these electronic sounds appear behind the vocals, almost as though they had to play the original stereo mix alongside the multitrack just to get these sounds onto the finished mix.:)

[Sotosound]

Most people today really bash the stereo mix of "I Saw Her Again", and I know why, but that is the one Mamas and Papas song I prefer in stereo.

I like both versions. The stereo mix is more clean and open and gives us the full-length recording, including the instrumental break in the middle. The single mix provides a more aggressive punch but does sound a bit dry and grainy to my ears, possibly because it's seriously bouncing in the red.

[marv2]

Here's the sample of the intro to the mono single mix of "Love Child". This is the way it is on the 45.

http://db.tt/5K14uNe

By the way, this was taken from the first Hitsville USA box, disc three. It was mastered correctly by Bill Inglot and Dan Hersh.


It's the drum and the tamborine coming down on the same beat that gives it a unique sound.

[ladonna]

Here's the sample of the intro to the mono single mix of "Love Child". This is the way it is on the 45.

http://db.tt/5K14uNe

By the way, this was taken from the first Hitsville USA box, disc three. It was mastered correctly by Bill Inglot and Dan Hersh.




Very interesting! Thank you for doing that.

There are some true audiophiles on this list. What type of equipment do y'all use to listen to music?

[soulster]

I'm guessing that the snare drum on [[I think) the fifth beat of the intro of "Love Child" is missing from the stereo mix because it's not part of the original multitrack and was, instead, added later during the mixing of the single.

That's what i'm wondering too. I would just like an answer from someone who was there.


Ditto the stab of horns punched in at the start of the single mix of "You Can't Hurry Love".

But, the horns are there on the stereo mix too. Listen to it!


I say this because some of the remixes on Number Ones seem like attempts to bring some of the elements of the original single mixes into a more modern 21st century context. The Number Ones mix of "Reflections" brings the electric piano right up front as per the single. The Number Ones mix of "Someday We'll Be Together" EQ's the bass line in the same warm and all-encompassing way as the original single whereas the original stereo mix doesn't do this, making the intro on that version sound a bit empty. The snare drum and stab of horns are, however, notable in their absence.

I do not use the #1 CD as a reference for stereo because they are modern remixes. I use the 60s stereo mixes as reference. For some songs, there are two 60s stereo mixes.


I also think that some of the electronic sounds on "Reflections" weren't on the original multitrack. OK, they ended up in both the original mono and stereo mixes, but if you listen to the new mix used on Number Ones there's a bit of phasing / flanging where these electronic sounds appear behind the vocals, almost as though they had to play the original stereo mix alongside the multitrack just to get these sounds onto the finished mix.:)

Again, I do not consider the #1 CD as a legitimate reference for stereo mixes.

[soulster]

I like both versions. The stereo mix is more clean and open and gives us the full-length recording, including the instrumental break in the middle. The single mix provides a more aggressive punch but does sound a bit dry and grainy to my ears, possibly because it's seriously bouncing in the red.

The stereo mix has many flaws. Since the mono mix was the hit, it is the reference. The stereo mix has too much reverb added which drowns out the vocals. The drums are too soft, and the rest of the instrumentation is also too distant as a result of the reverb.

The mono mix is dry because there was no reverb added.

[soulster]

Very interesting! Thank you for doing that.

I'm just shocked that people here never noticed it, when that snare drum hit is as clear as day.


There are some true audiophiles on this list. What type of equipment do y'all use to listen to music?


I just have a mid-fi, computer-based stereo system. That is, I hooked up my computer audiophile soundcard to the big stereo. I have all my CDs, CD-Rs, downloads, and needledrops ripped to my hard drives, which is also part of a server. I also have an audiophile-grade turntable and phono stage. I currently use Polk Audio speakers, but whan I get some spending cash, i'll get some studio monitors. I have a nice CD player, but it rarely ever gets used. Why, when I have all mu music on hard drives?

[kenneth]

Similar problems exist if you line up the single vs. Stereo mixes of "I'm Ready for Love" by Martha and the Vandellas. The drums on the single are way more in your face and there's way more urgency in the single version; it almost becomes an MOR hit in the LP [[Stereo) version, although the addition of the background vocals on the bridge is nice.

That's what was so great about the "Live Wire," "Deliver" and "Looking Back" sets in the 90s. They were remasters of all the single versions, nicely done in my opinion. Of course, Hip-O is doing this with the Marvelettes and their other sets as well, whenever disc space permits!

[ladonna]

Very interesting! Thank you for doing that.

There are some true audiophiles on this list. What type of equipment do y'all use to listen to music?




I have no idea what you've just said, but thank you for sharing. ;o)

[BayouMotownMan]

Good ear Soulster. If you highlight that one channel that has the snare, I think it's there on the intro no matter how faint. It's all about the mixing.

I like the stereo version best I must admit. The piano and strings are clearer. We've all heard the different mixes and I'd have to say the released version was Ross's best vocal. She had some real fire in her voice. And those Andantes just walked away with it on just the AHHHHH's. I was broken hearted to find out in the 70s that it wasn't Mary and Cindy.

[jillfoster]

Very interesting! Thank you for doing that.

There are some true audiophiles on this list. What type of equipment do y'all use to listen to music?

That is an easy question to answer, this is what I have [[Except I have FOUR speakers, so I can use the Quad matrix)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzThH91TSvY&feature=related

That setup [[especially with the four speakers) was a pricey setup in it's day. Regular retail with the four speakers was around 1,000$. and in 1978 money, that was quite a bit. But it's worth every penny.

[ladonna]

That's a nice set, jillfoster; really digging on the turntable! Groovy! lol

[daddyacey]

Now see , because of this thread I have to pull all the versions I have of this track and see what you all are talking about. I too have a 4 channel set up ,but with a center channel and a sub woofer, using 4 stereo intergrated amps.All the speakers are 3 way,front and rear with the center channel using a pair of 2 way with built in sub woofers ,powered with thier own amp. Even with all of that I feel the best listening environment is a good pair of headphones in straight up stereo or mono. I don't have the #1's CD ,but I do have the original vinyl LP,Anthology LP and The Supremes 2000 Box and maybe the 45 single. My weekend is set...... thank yall very much:D:D.

[uptight]

Also, they took advantage of tape saturation for the 45 mix. The intro sounds like snare, kick and tambourine boosted way into the red, leaving the tape saturation to absorb it like compression. I've always noticed the diff between the 45 and stereo LP version, but I won't say one is better than the other. I enjoy both for different reasons.

Jill, that commercial makes me want to rush to JC Penney's and buy a quad system. Impressive.

[Sotosound]

But, the horns are there on the stereo mix too. Listen to it! .

I had a good listen last night [[as I have on occasions for many years), and again this morning. What I can hear on the stereo mixes [[original and Number 1's) are two or three guitars [[Joe Messina, Robert White and possibly Eddie Willis) playing the same chord at exactly the same time, as only they can do.... but no horns.

This double or triple guitar whammy, however, doesn't have the same impact as a stab of horns right in your face, and I suspect that HDH realised this and did something about it for the single release.

It would also be interesting to hear what other readers ears tell them......

[theboyfromxtown]

"I suspect that HDH realised this and did something about it for the single release."



Why do you say HDH?

[westgrandboulevard]

theboyfromxtown

That was my first thought too...but looking back through the thread, I think Sotosound is referring to 'You Can't Hurry Love'......[[or possibly 'Reflections...) - ?

[theboyfromxtown]

theboyfromxtown

That was my first thought too...but looking back through the thread, I think Sotosound is referring to 'You Can't Hurry Love'......[[or possibly 'Reflections...) - ?


That makes sense to me now. Thank you WGB.

[soulster]

I had a good listen last night [[as I have on occasions for many years), and again this morning. What I can hear on the stereo mixes [[original and Number 1's) are two or three guitars [[Joe Messina, Robert White and possibly Eddie Willis) playing the same chord at exactly the same time, as only they can do.... but no horns.

This double or triple guitar whammy, however, doesn't have the same impact as a stab of horns right in your face .

Yeah, I know. But, someone said it was horns, and I just went with it as a way to describe the sound. But, you must know that the mono single was mixed and released first, not after the stereo. Back in those days, the mono mix was always more important than the stereo. They spent time on the mono mixes.

[Sotosound]

Yeah, I know. But, someone said it was horns, and I just went with it as a way to describe the sound. But, you must know that the mono single was mixed and released first, not after the stereo. Back in those days, the mono mix was always more important than the stereo. They spent time on the mono mixes.

And thank heavens that they did as they left us with a wonderful legacy that still keeps people such as us occupied 45 years on.

Also, apologies to theboyfromxtown for not making it clear that I was discussing "You Can't Hurry Love".

Now it's time for me to go and listen to the four different mixes of "Love Child" that I have........ :)

[soulster]

And thank heavens that they did as they left us with a wonderful legacy that still keeps people such as us occupied 45 years on.

Also, apologies to theboyfromxtown for not making it clear that I was discussing "You Can't Hurry Love".

Now it's time for me to go and listen to the four different mixes of "Love Child" that I have........ :)

I think it was only mixed three times: the mono, 60s stereo, and the 2000 whatever remix.

[Sotosound]

I think it was only mixed three times: the mono, 60s stereo, and the 2000 whatever remix.

There's an additional mono mix of "Love Child" on The Complete Motown Singles Volume 8 [[1968) with an alternative vocal track. [[Amazon calls it the stereo album version, which it isn't). When I heard it for the first time I understood why it didn't get released.

The TCMS collections are great for things like that. There's a true mono mix of the Isleys' "This Old Heart Of Mine" on there as well and, again, I can understand why they went with the mix that we all know and love [[which is a fold-down of a unique stereo mix that never saw the light of day in stereo until a couple of years ago).

The other side of the TCMS collections, however, is that they're a very expensive way to satisfy momentary curiosity.

[soulster]

Ah! I don't have that TCMS volume.

[Sotosound]

I listened again to both versions of "I Saw Her Again" by the Mamas and Papas today.

My system's been upgraded since I last gave this track some serious attention and the graininess of the mono version [[an original UK RCA Victor 45) isn't there any more, meaning that I was previously probably hearing an artefact of my old system. In fact, its sounded a lot sweeter and more detailed this time.

On the stereo mix, I found that Denny Doherty's vocal starts out too quiet and you can almost see the mixing engineer pushing the slider up after the first line as Denny's vocal suddenly gets a bit louder.

What's really wonderful is that the stereo mix is so much of its time, using the whole stereo sound field from far left to far right in a way that disappeared once stereo became the norm but radio and a lot of domestic record players were still mono, with no guarantee that both stereo channels would be reproduced.

[[I myself had a Supraphon mono gramophone that only played back one channel and I hate to think what the crystal cartridge and cheap stylus did to some of my records.)

You can also hear the various vocal threads far more clearly in stereo. Perhaps this means that the stereo mix is for listening to and the mono mix is for grooving to.

Regarding "Love Child", I can hear the snare slam on both mono mixes, but on the stereo mix it just isn't there.

What is there, however, is a floor tom slam that has its own impact on any decent stereo sound system. Since this was, however, recorded about a year before everybody started sticking blankets inside floor toms to create the now over-familiar heavy drum sound initially beloved of rock drummers, then used by Motown and then adapted for disco, the floor tom slam wasn't something that would translate well to AM radio. Perhaps this is why the snare slam was punched in.

[soulster]

One of these days i'll have to sit down and insert that snare hit in the stereo mix.

[Sotosound]

One of these days i'll have to sit down and insert that snare hit in the stereo mix.

And I know that you, Soulster, can do that if anyone can.

[tomato tom]

Now I know why I HAVE to have the 45, the 12", the stereo album version, the DJ Promo mono version, the CD version.....My partner cannot understand why I have the same songs so many times on different formats. Try explaining to a non believer! I sometimes worry myself! Why?..But WE understand,,,,[[yes?)..Paulo xxx

[westgrandboulevard]

Paulo

Oh yes, WE do all understand [[also having non believers for partners, too!)

It explains why we have no money, and where it all went over the years...LOL

[Sotosound]

Now I know why I HAVE to have the 45, the 12", the stereo album version, the DJ Promo mono version, the CD version.....My partner cannot understand why I have the same songs so many times on different formats. Try explaining to a non believer! I sometimes worry myself! Why?..But WE understand,,,,[[yes?)..Paulo xxx

And we now have the Internet that allows us to link up with others who understand.

This is actually a wonderful thing that we should all be grateful for. And it has happened in our lifetime.

[[And I'm not talking about Marvin's album which, incidentally I have on vinyl, on CD.....):)

[bradburger]

Just been digging through my archives and found the very detailed thread posted on the old forum by Deke Richards on how Love Child came about.

I won't post up the whole article though, although it's a great read, it is rather long. So I thought I'd post the part where he describes the mixing sessions as it is more relevent, and might be of interest to those following this thread.

PART 1


When it was time for the Background vocals, whatever input and ideas we had, were noted. However, Frank took charge here with the Andantes. Frank always had a great feel for background parts. The 'buzz' was spreading through the company that this new group called 'The Clan' was getting ready to unveil their creation for all to hear. All we needed now was to mix it. The next QC meeting was only a day away. There was just no way we could have it ready by then. Berry was loaded down and behind with some company business. Of course this record was serious business as well, but there were other important matters for him to deal with. However, the Sales Dept. was climbing the walls and Billie Jean was telling him we have to come out with something, like now. She said she had one or two things she was going to play in the meeting. Berry really felt bad about this. I could tell he did NOT want to wait one more week till the next QC meeting. As we walked down the hall after leaving his office, I suddenly blurted out, "Berry, I can do this. Let me mix the record tonight and I'll have it ready for the QC meeting tomorrow." He stopped dead in his tracks and looked at me. "Are you sure", Berry said. "I mean are you SURE you do it?” "Yes!” I said. "I know I can. I can pull this off. I know every part of this record like the back of my hand." Berry hesitated for a moment, then turned and said, "Let's go, I 'm going to call Billie Jean right now".

We went back to his office. He called Billie Jean and told her, "We want mixing time tonight. We're going to have it ready for the meeting tomorrow". Done. BJ set up the time and there was no turning back now. As Berry and I left his office the second time, he was smiling. We bumped into Frank and Hank in the hall. "Deke's gonna mix 'Love Child' for us tonight. We're going to play it at the QC meeting tomorrow morning." Hank had a semi-blank look on his face. "Don't worry", said Berry. "Deke's got us covered". I was all set to go and showed up at the mixing room at 6pm. It was just the two of us, the engineer and myself. Hold on a minute! How could everything be so right, and then suddenly go so wrong? In less than 24hrs, I went from Berry Gordy's 'Golden Boy', to 'Mr. Bad Guy'. Little did I know, I would be responsible for the attempted assassination of 'Love Child' and 'The Clan'. I was about to experience the most embarrassing moment of my life.
It was like a bad dream. It was like . . . the beginning of the end of Deke.

To be continued in THE FINAL CHAPTER . . . "The Miracle Mix"

Hi Soulkiddies. It's time for the FINAL CHAPTER. Here is the conclusion of . . .

Part VII

The Miracle Mix

A normal mixing session would run 1-2 hours. If the record, or producer was important, then of course it could go longer When it came to 'Love Child', I didn't know how long we were scheduled for, but we obviously had carte blanche. So Ed started doing the normal set-up, as I went over my notes of all the parts of the production. There were a lot of miscellaneous things to keep track of while mixing, i.e. low levels on this track, a mistake on that track, a breath or bad punch-in on Diana's track, etc. He did a number of mixes but always missed something. Even with some limiting here, and some compression there, it soon became clear to both of us. This was a job for more than one pair of hands on the console.

We split up the 'watch out for' list between us and started to mix again, together. I must admit there were a few early mixes that didn't sound bad. However, this mix was too important. I had to come up with a mix that was w-a-y beyond something that 'didn't sound bad'. I kept thinking to myself, "Everyone in that QC meeting has to fall over like bowling pins when they hear it. They have to love this record. 'Love Child' has to get a unanimous hands up reaction to be the new single for Diana. Keep in mind; this project had been under raps, so no one had heard anything yet. The anticipation was overwhelming. The fact is, in some circles, 'The Clan' with it's secret project, was looked upon as a bit of a joke. We all knew this kind of stuff drifted down the halls like cigarette smoke coming from underneath closed doors. After all, think about who was in the group. Hank had some credibility, but the rest of us have any real serious track record. Even with Berry in the group, didn't change it much. I think many had given up hope on him every writing another classic.

Mix, after mix, after mix was completed and played back. Sometimes, it came so close. It was Midnight and I was still excited and feeling fine. Ed was really into it as well, so we kept going. We were going to get this baby if it killed us. Well, it almost did. At about 3:00 in the morning, it seemed like we had it between 2 different mixes. So, we decided to make a splice and put them together. We tried it in a couple of different places. There was too much tambourine on one mix, and it just called your attention to the splice. The other splice point had a similar problem. We had spent almost 45 minutes trying out the 2 different takes and the 2 different splice points. I could feel that Ed was starting to fade a bit. We started to mix again. It was now 4:00 am.

We mixed for another hour. Keep in mind an hour disappears like a shot in the dark, when you're mixing. There are false starts, and places where a cue is missed, playbacks, etc. You might end up with 4 or 5 mixes. During these mixes little things got tweaked up, i.e. a little more echo on Diana, a little more edge on the snare, a little fattening up of the acoustic guitar. At any rate we finally came up with another mix close to 6:00 am. We both made all the cues perfect; it looked like we had a winner. We played it back. DAMN. One of us, while reaching for one of the cues, had bumped the master fader. You could hear it as plain as day. There was no way this was going to fly, I thought to myself. All we had to do was make one more mix, and we would have been home free. We started up again, but we just missed little things in each mix. After about ten or so of these, I just knew Ed was starting to lose it. Now the clock seemed to start ticking in double time.

Every time I looked up another 30 minutes had disappeared. Whoops, I just lost the tambourine, and then there too much echo on the snare, and finally the Background vocal sounded dull. These all got fixed and we continued. It was now 7:00am. I knew it was time to start counting backwards. I thought, "The meeting starts at 10:00 am. I have to cut the acetate. That would take 30 minutes, with the paperwork, etc. It would take me 30 minutes to take a 'bird bath', change clothes, and freshen up. I had to add travelling time from the studio to my hotel and from the hotel to downtown. [[You have to remember, the offices had now moved, and were no longer at Hitsville.) That was another 30 minutes. There was 1-1/2 hrs. Right there. So, I had until 8:30 at the latest to finish the mix, not one minute later. I couldn't be late for the QC meeting, period. That gave me 1-1/2 hours before I had to walk out the door. On top of that, the final mix had to be leadered, logged etc.

[bradburger]

Continued....

PART 2


Billie Jean got into her office at 9:00am, sometimes earlier on a QC meeting day. I thought I better make the call. "What?” you're still there? You've been there all night? Damn, Deke!” BJ said. "Look, BJ we've had a tuff time with this, and I know right now I'll be running late. That's why I called. I'll need to have the Disc Mastering Room waiting for me when I get there.” I said. [[The Disc Mastering Room is where we cut the acetates.) Now I know, if Berry wasn't involved in this project, just what Billie Jean would have said to me. I'm sure she had to really bite her tongue. I knew I was going to hear about this at some point down the line. "All right, but get your butt in gear!", she said, then hung up. With that out of the way it was time to get back to the mix. 1 hour and 20 minutes to go, that's it. We made another one, but something sounded strange. During the mix, Ed took muted something and forgot to put it back on. Unfortunately, that was straw that broke the Camel's back. Ed was tired and pissed. He was so cool until then, so I never knew it was building up inside of him. He wanted to call it off. I said, "Come on Ed, we're almost there". Begging and pleading would have done no good at this point. I could see, he was wasted. I said, "OK, take a break, I can handle it. I'll keep going." By now, I knew all of the changes by heart. I had to keep my concentration, but I kept on going. Ed stepped in from outside and made a comment while I was playing back a mix. I made the adjustment or change and kept going. 49 minutes . . . 27 minutes . . . 16 minutes and then with only 12 minutes to go, I got it. I cut and spliced in the head and tail leaders and almost put half of my finger inside that mix as well. Razor blades can bite you, when you're trying to work at 90 mph. I grabbed my stuff and with only 4 minutes to spare, I was out the door at 8:26. I did it!

I raced to the hotel, cleaned up and continued on to the office downtown. I ran in, jumped on the elevator and got inside the Mastering Room at 9:20. The engineer was waiting for me. He cut the disc, and I took the stairs just in case the elevator was crowded. When I got in the hall, I saw Hank and Frank. "BG was looking for you. Have you got it?” they asked. "Right here", I said. We walked down the hall and into the meeting. I saw Billie Jean and Berry seated at the tables at the end of the room, the two turntables sitting on the table in front of them. The meeting hadn't begun. Various producers and others from A&R and sales were sitting in the fold up chairs that filled the room to capacity. Besides Hank and Frank, Pam and R. Dean were also there. There was Johnny Bristol & Harvey Fuqua, Ivy Joe Hunter, Norman Whitfield, Clay McMurray and more. Even VP-by-day Smokey Robinson, who didn't always come, showed up. [[I'm sure Berry asked him to make it on this so-called special occasion.)

I walked up to the end of the room and calmly handed the acetate to Berry, almost interrupting his conversation with Billie Jean.
She barely looked up; just long enough to give me a stern look. There was no 'hello' or 'good morning'. I turned and went to a chair that Hank had saved for me on the end. Normally, I always sat in the back of the room. It was fun back there. Besides, if your record was a 'bomb', you didn't feel everyone's eyes looking at you from behind.
However, Hank and Frank got us all seats in the middle of the room. Oh well, I thought, today . . . so what? Berry called the meeting to order. The first acetate was placed on Turntable A. It was played, voted on, comments made, graded and then on to the next. If a record got a majority of hands up, it could almost be considered the next release. About 4-6 sides were played, then Berry in a low-key style, introduced the next record he was going to play. He wanted it to be the last record played in the meeting. There were a few words about the new producing team, but our names were not mentioned. Everyone knew what they were getting ready to hear. It was ours. It was 'The Clan'. It was 'Love Child'. Everyone looked over at me and smiled, and I returned the gesture. Berry slowly lowered the needle on the beginning grooves. From the moment it started, you could hear a pin drop. The first thing that happened was Berry looked up directly at me. I felt the eyes of Hank and Frank as well looking at me as well. The record almost sounded like some kind of a joke. It was thin and you could barely hear Jamerson on the bass. Diana's voice had too much edge and way too much echo. At first I thought the cartridge on the turntable just blew out. For me, listening to this record continue for almost 3 minutes, was nothing short of pure torture. My God, I thought what happened?

As the record was beginning to fade, Berry lifted the needle. He was smiling and almost everyone in the room was laughing or giggling. It had to be the most embarrassing moment of my entire life. Berry was laughing himself, jokingly said, "I'm going to have to have a long talk with 'our mixer', Deke Richards. We are going to have to go and do another mix on this, and resubmit it in the next meeting." Then he continued with a humorous line or two, that was probably very funny to everyone but me. Then he said he wanted to meet with "The Clan" after the meeting was over. I could barely stand it. I just couldn't believe what had happened. My whole world had just turned upside down. The meeting ended and some of the producers made cracks to me on their way out the door. People were filing out the door. Hank looked at me and said, "What did you do, man?” I overheard someone else say, "Well, THAT was a big mistake". I could see Billie Jean was still giggling and laughing. While Berry was talking to her, he motioned to us to follow him as we all walked out the door. I thought to myself, I had it all in the palm of my hand, and I blew it. It was all over now.

We all stopped in the hall and Berry said he had Billie Jean schedule some mixing time and was going to go upstairs to mix at 6pm. I remember one the guys telling me, "Why don't you go back to the hotel now and get some rest? You look like you could use it." I just stood there still stunned for a second, as they continued to walk down the hall. "No! Wait a minute", I shouted as I shuffled up to the group. "I want to mix this again". There were a number of comments firing all at once. All I can tell you is, none of those talking approved of my request. "Look", I said. "I blew it, I know that, but making me stay away is not going to change anything or make it better. Berry, I've GOT to know HOW I screwed up so badly. I've got to make it right. Please, man." Then it was quiet for a second. Berry said, "It's OK Deke, go home, go back to the hotel". "Berry", I said again, "I NEED to do this. I want to learn. I really want to be a good mixer. Let me work with you." There was another moment of silence. I glanced at each of the group, but their eyes were fixed on Berry. I felt so bad for everyone, but I knew they all thought I single-handedly tried to assassinate "The Clan" and "Love Child" at the same time. Now we were all looking at Berry, waiting for his answer. "All right, you can come. Just meet me at the Mastering Room upstairs tonight at 6. Right now, I want you to go back to the hotel and get some rest. You look like hell". "I'll be there", I said, and walked away, leaving them all standing in the hall. I'm sure a few more things were said after I walked away, none of it very good. However, I couldn't blame them; and at the same time I couldn't let it get to me. I knew 2 important things. I just got a second chance, and I was NOT going to blow it. I was going be a winner. Nothing was going to stop me from doing that.

Russ Terrana was the engineer assigned to meet us in the Mastering Room that night. I liked Russ. He was a sharp, quick thinking, knowledgeable engineer, with a sense of humour. Russ had everything set up and ready to go, including the ID tapes for the tracks at the base of each fader. Berry immediately sat down at the console, and Russ stood to his left. I stood to the right of Berry, but in more front of him. I didn't want to be looking over his shoulder. I hate that, myself. I wanted him to be able to see me at all times. He started to run down the tape and get a feel for the balance and the levels on each track. I watched every single move Berry made that night, but I never got on the console. He never asked to play the mix I brought to the meeting, even for comparison. That let me know, just how bad it really was. We stayed only until about 9:00pm. Berry had made a few mixes and I asked for a 7 1/2" i.p.s copy for myself. "Why?” he said. "I want to study it.” I said. Berry told Russ he wanted to come back tomorrow night.

[bradburger]

Continued....

PART 3


Day 2 started about the same. Berry sat down at the console, Russ and I stood. He would ask for this echo or reverb and use terminologies I was not familiar with. When I saw a moment I wouldn't break his concentration, I started to ask questions. What is this? What does that do? Why use this instead of that? Etc. Then I'd leave him alone and just listen and study what was happening to the sound. I waited for him to miss one thing that I believed was important, or would sound better another way. [[Note: I may have totally screwed up the mix that everyone heard, but I LIVED with that 8-Track Master tape for 14 hours. I knew where all the little problem areas were.) However, I wanted him do his mix and not be interrupted. At the same time, it wasn't my place, not yet anyway. I waited patiently to hear 4 little words. Russ was helping him with compression and limiting, etc. Then after the 5th mix, he was smiling confidently and then turned to me at last and said:

BG-"What do you think? [[BINGO! Those 4 little words were music to my ears.)
DR-"There was a snare beat you keep missing just before the second verse."
BG-"Where?” he said in a tone that was a little like "What are you talking about".
DR-"Play it back from the first chorus and I'll show you." When it came to the part, I said "THERE". [[I still refrained from touching the faders since he was at the controls. I just had to be patient.)
BG-"Yea? So . . .? What?"
DR-"I thought you heard it"
BG-"Heard what?" [[This seemed like a little bit of a 'cat and mouse' game, but I didn't want to push him. Finally, he said:
BG-"What are you talking about? Show me!"
That did it.
DR-"Do you mind?"
BG-"Here, sit down". He got up and I sat down.

This would be better anyway, I thought. With him standing, he could just listen and hear the difference. I had Russ play the tape from the first chorus again. I let it play the way once through just the way he had it mixed it. "Now," I said, "check this out!" I asked Russ to rewind the tape and play it again. This time when it came to the part just before the second verse [[Diana is singing, 'different from the rest') I slammed up the fader on the snare for a split second. WAP! Berry said, "That's great, play it again". Now he was watching my hands on the faders. I did it again. "Excellent!" he said, then I started to get up and Berry said, "No, stay here. Russ, get us another chair." From that point on, we were inseparable at the console.
Side by side we mixed for hours at a time. I soaked up every little bit of knowledge I could from Berry like a sponge. I even stayed after Berry left and continued to mix a few. I even spent time talking to Russ.

He would show me the correct use and application for various types of echo and reverb, limiters and compressors, etc. I remember when BG and I were mixing, the rest of 'The Clan' stopped by at different times to check on Berry and 'The Bad Guy'. However, the ice had begun to melt. Everyone could see I was going to make sure it was right this time. You could just tell, this record was going to be great. Then, something strange happened. I had started early on one session, and had made a few changes and found another 'goodie' [[Note: 'Goodies' were the great little parts in the track or production, that were just lying there, waiting to be found and then featured in the final mix so they would stand out). Berry walked in and just listened to what I was doing, instead of sitting down at the console.

He said:

BG-"Did you put that on tape?”
DR-"Yes"
BG-"Well let me hear it back". [[When the playback was done, he smiled.)
BG-Almost, but you forgot one thing". [[He seemed so proud as if to say 'Got Cha!" He made another mix as I watched. Then, we played it back.)
BG-See? You forgot to bring up the strings there?
DR-You're right. Not bad, but . . . you blew it!”
BG-"Bull Sh--! Where?"
DR-Move over a minute. [[I made a mix an showed him another 'goodie'.)
BG-Damn. That's good.

Well, it was like this. The two of us in friendly combat, shooting each other down, picking each other up, right down to the end of the line. There were times we felt we had the final mixes. Berry ordered acetates cut. Then, we went down to QC room and played them back on the turntables. Acetates had white labels with all the info regarding the mix. The title was followed by the mixing engineers initials in parenthesis, then the date, master number, etc. One acetate was placed on each turntable. This process was called 'A-B-ing". We would cue up both turntables, let them go and switch between the output of Turntable "A" and Turntable "B". Then these acetates were given grades just like in a QC meeting. 1 to10, 10 being the best. Most of the final mixes [[acetates) brought to the QC room to check out, consisted of one done by each of us. There were some that were even done by both of us together. Those acetates had both of our initials typed on them as mixing engineers. i.e. [[BG/DR). We intensely competed 'to the death'; or should I say, ' for the life' of the next Diana Ross and The Supremes release.

He knew deep inside, how I felt. I would have given anything to undue the wrong I had done that one black day when I walked into the QC meeting with that first mix of "Love Child". We had such great fun working together. I was working beside one of my idols. I had learned so much; it was time for me to give back. I even taught my 'teacher' a few tricks. We used to laugh and joke when the he was grading our acetates on the turntable. "Well, this one sounds good [[referring to my mix), but this one has this little ‘goodie’. Etc. [[Referring to his mix.) Then he would write the grade in pencil on the label. "I'm going to give this one [[mine) a "8". However, this one [[his) I have to give an "8-1/4". I would shoot back, laughing so hard, "What? Hey, come on man, where did you get that "1/4" crap! Let's go back down, I can beat that one". Back down to the room we'd go, both squeezing a little more 'juice' out of the tape and into the mix.

When it was finally over, we sat in the QC room, our acetates on the turntables. Berry always put his on the left and mine on the right. We both swore this would be the last. Back and forth, back and forth he switched the monitor from Turntable 'A' to Turntable 'B'.

'Mine has got the guitar lick here, but yours has got that string gliss", he said as we both laughed. "I don't care BG, you call it.” I said. I felt confident that both mixes were just as great. "Well, I'm going to give this one a "9" [[referring to my mix the right) and THIS one [[referring to his mix on the left) a "9 3/4". That was it. It was over. "Mark down the mix, and give Billie Jean the number. Then, have a couple more acetates cut for me." Berry started to leave, and then he turned to me, shook my hand and said, "Deke, you were a 'dead man'. Everyone in the group was out for your blood, but you came back! You did one hell of a job". We congratulated each other, said good-bye and then Berry walked out the door. I just stood there for a minute, alone in the room. The memories of that fateful day I came to the QC meeting with that 1st mix of "Love Child" flashing in front of my eyes. I walked over to the desk and picked up both the discs off the turntables, and walked over to the door. I turned and took one more look at the empty room and I began to see ghosts of all the producers talking and laughing in their seats. It was almost like a kid's classroom before the teacher walks in. I had a feeling this room would haunt me the rest of my life. It was starting to already. My chest swelled and let go one last sigh of relief. Then I turned off the lights, and walked out the door.

The End? …. Not quite.

I kept those 2 final acetates for myself to remind me of this special moment in my life. When I finally got ready to leave Detroit to go back to LA, I looked at the discs one more time before I put them in my bag. I laughed to myself as I looked at the grades Berry had written on our final mixes: "9" on my mix and a "9 3/4" on his mix. Then, I saw something that suddenly put me in a sort of trance. I had to look twice. Examining the discs carefully, I discovered that the mixing engineers initials on both discs were the same [[DR). In other words, the 2 final mixes that Berry graded that day, were both in fact, my mixes. Was this some mild form of 'Sweet Revenge'? No, not at all. Let's just call it a miracle. Until now, it is the one secret I have kept to myself all these years. I never even told Berry.

___________________________________________

I hope you enjoyed taking this ride with me down Memory Lane.

Thank you all, so much . . .

[soulster]

Duuude! Bradburger! Thanks for finding that! I'll read it as soon as I get the chance!

[soulster]

Well, here's the result I came up with. I took that snare hit and the strings, three beats, from the mono mix, EQ'ed it to more closely match the stereo mix from the 20th Century Masters CD, and added it to the right channel. The result is that it still doesn't have the power that the mono has, and part of that is because of the equalization. I could have added some bite to that slam, but then it wouldn't have matched the rest of the mix.

The drums on the stereo mix are all on the right channel, which further diminishes the impact. Also, the drums are mixed so low on the stereo mix that they are almost non-existent! In other words, the 1968 stereo mix stinks.

I listened to the remix on the #1 CD [[yes, I have it anyway), and the drums are a tad louder, but still have no impact. I'll stick with enjoying the mono mix. It has balls.

So, anyway, here's the result of my effort: http://db.tt/rFCcx0B

[Sotosound]

Now I can hear the snare slam. And it's done so well you'd never know that it was added 43 years later!

Brilliant!

And you've now also answered the question that you posed as you opened this thread.

The answer is "Right here."

[robbert]

It seems to me that a lot of whole and half misunderstandings have occured. All I can do is repeat what I wrote on August 17:

Are we talking about the same snare drum hit here? Mine is at about 00:46, between Diana's "...take a look at me!..." and "..."Started my life... I get the impression others' hit is in the intro...?

Deke Richards [[co-writer/producer) of Love Child has extensively written regarding 'his snare drum item'. The one at 00:46, that is. And how he told Berry Gordy how he [[BG) forgot to emphasize that hit in Berry's version of the mix. . Deke's contributions must be somewhere in the SDF vault.

In the 45 mix [[mono) the 00:46 hit on the snare drum is loud and dry/sharp - and it makes my day, every time I play the song. In most stero versions, if not all stereo versions, the hit is there, but is not loud enough in the mix to make the same impression as it does in the mono mix. Remember it was 1968 and well mixed stereo albums were less important than hit singles.

Just now I saw that the Deke Richard Story was reprinted. I hope everything is cleared up now?

[soulster]

Are we talking about the same snare drum hit here? I get the impression others' hit is in the intro...?


That's what I started this thread about. ^ Did you even bother to listen to the two samples I posted?

[ladonna]

It seems to me that a lot of whole and half misunderstandings have occured. All I can do is repeat what I wrote on August 17:

Are we talking about the same snare drum hit here? Mine is at about 00:46, between Diana's "...take a look at me!..." and "..."Started my life... I get the impression others' hit is in the intro...?

Deke Richards [[co-writer/producer) of Love Child has extensively written regarding 'his snare drum item'. The one at 00:46, that is. And how he told Berry Gordy how he [[BG) forgot to emphasize that hit in Berry's version of the mix. . Deke's contributions must be somewhere in the SDF vault.

In the 45 mix [[mono) the 00:46 hit on the snare drum is loud and dry/sharp - and it makes my day, every time I play the song. In most stero versions, if not all stereo versions, the hit is there, but is not loud enough in the mix to make the same impression as it does in the mono mix. Remember it was 1968 and well mixed stereo albums were less important than hit singles.

Just now I saw that the Deke Richard Story was reprinted. I hope everything is cleared up now?




If you scroll up and listen to the two samples soulster posted, it is very apparent which is what.

[bob_olhsson]

FWIW that snare crack was a fader move on the drum track. Berry tried a number of different levels looking for the right one to start the record off with a bang. It sounds like it got missed on the stereo mix.

Prior to 1969 or so stereo had the same status in pop music as 5.1 mixes of stereo albums have today. With a very few exceptions you really want the mono versions.

[rovereab]

Have SDFers ever noticed that on the mono mix you can hardly hear Diana sing the "I" of "I started school......" whereas it is very clear on the stereo mix.

Eamonn

[soulster]

FWIW that snare crack was a fader move on the drum track. Berry tried a number of different levels looking for the right one to start the record off with a bang. It sounds like it got missed on the stereo mix.

Prior to 1969 or so stereo had the same status in pop music as 5.1 mixes of stereo albums have today. With a very few exceptions you really want the mono versions.


Thanks Bob! I was hoping you would respond. Yes, this is one of the reasons I almost always prefer the mono mixes over stereo. But, it does amaze me how so many people don't notice these things. I guess all they listen for are the vocals and lyrics.

[mysterysinger]

Mono versions may be generally superior but you've gotta hear Third Finger Left Hand in stereo on the Dance Party / Watchout 2fer. Love it.

[Sotosound]

FWIW that snare crack was a fader move on the drum track. Berry tried a number of different levels looking for the right one to start the record off with a bang. It sounds like it got missed on the stereo mix.

Prior to 1969 or so stereo had the same status in pop music as 5.1 mixes of stereo albums have today. With a very few exceptions you really want the mono versions.

Just back from a holiday in Portugal to have a 42 year-old mystery solved just like that!!!! Many thanks to Bob for the explanation and many thanks to Soulster for posing the question.

[soulster]

As I mentioned above, I tried to get that snare louder with little luck. Back to MONO!