Gladys Horton interview 1992 surfaced

[robbert]

Follow this link and you'll read all about it.

http://mickeynold.blogspot.com/2011/01/gladys-horton.html

[marv2]

Thanks Robbert, I will check it out.

[ladonna]

Gladys sounds terrific here; she comes across as very humble, down to earth, intelligent, and REAL. I am tempted to purchase Hip-o's The Complete Motown Albums Volume I; however, a lot of their earlier stuff is not that interesting. I am, however, totally on board for Volume II.

[kenneth]

Gladys sounds terrific here; she comes across as very humble, down to earth, intelligent, and REAL. I am tempted to purchase Hip-o's The Complete Motown Albums Volume I; however, a lot of their earlier stuff is not that interesting. I am, however, totally on board for Volume II.

Ladonna, It's a great set. Some of their early material was a little rough but there's a lot of great surprises on it, such as the live sets and a lot of the B-sides and unreleased material is great to hear. Also, for a 3-CD set it's pretty reasonably priced, I think only $40 compared to the $70 for the Supremes set. K

[ladonna]

LOL! Sold! I purchased the Deliver The Hits series for the Marvelettes and the Vandellas and while I don't listen to either package that often, I do, at times return to the one on the Marvelettes. You're right, I think I'll get Volume I, as well.

[kenneth]

LOL! Sold! I purchased the Deliver The Hits series for the Marvelettes and the Vandellas and while I don't listen to either package that often, I do, at times return to the one on the Marvelettes. You're right, I think I'll get Volume I, as well.

Hey, I hope you do. I'm sure you'd be glad you did. "Deliver" and "Live Wire" were both great sets except the big mystery on the Vandellas set is how they managed to omit "A Love Like Yours"? I hope someone's head rolled over that one!

[ladonna]

Wait a minute now; the more I listen to this interview, there is some bitterness going on there. She really is not impressed with the Motown Museum, is she? LOL!

[carlo]

Wow! Thank you VERY much Robbert for sharing this interview. Ladonna, I totally agree. While I had never really seen Gladys on TV or heard many interviews conducted with her over the years, I always could tell that she was a genuine, earthy, kind lady. God Bless her and may she rest in peace.

I am hoping to visit the Motown Museum later this summer. I really do hope they now have some sort of photo tribute of the Marvelettes? If they don't, I'm going to make sure they do.

Ladonna: I am happy to hear you purchased Forever Volume 1! You will enjoy it. :) It's good that you purchased it because once these releases are gone, they're gone...and then we always have the fans that come on here shortly afterwards, expressing how they wished they had bought the CD when it was still available.

I hope Volume 2 is still coming soon?!

[ladonna]

What is her beef with Smokey, tho?

[kenneth]

What is her beef with Smokey, tho?

She blames him early in the interview for giving use of the "Marvelettes" name to Larry Marshak. One of the early books about Motown said it was lost in a poker game. I wonder what the truth is?

[ladonna]

Hmmmm? Either way, not cool.

[carlo]

Also...where's the promised Marvelettes Anthology we were supposed to get??

[ladonna]

Is there a book; did she find a publisher?

[nabob]

. . . . . . "Deliver" and "Live Wire" were both great sets except the big mystery on the Vandellas set is how they managed to omit "A Love Like Yours"? I hope someone's head rolled over that one!Another error was using the wrong mix master for Never Leave Your Baby's Side. Fortunately, the correct mix surfaced on the Spectrum, MRV-Early Classics.

[Jimi LaLumia]

Berry Gordy and Esther should hang their heads in SHAME after listening to this, Smokey Robinson as well...DISGRACEFUL!...
and for those here who claimed that all was peaches and cream between The Marvelettes and Motown, you are hereby shut down by Miss Gladys Horton herself..
after giving the first black owned pop music label their first national #1 pop hit ever, the treatment and shunning they have recieved...
DISGRACEFUL!!!

[roger]

Fascinating interview!!

Presumably, as the interview is almost 20 years old, the issues for which she criticises the Motown Museum have now been addressed?

Roger

[kenneth]

Fascinating interview!!

Presumably, as the interview is almost 20 years old, the issues for which she criticises the Motown Museum have now been addressed?

Roger

I've never been there, but those I know who have say it still looks like a tacky thrown together affair. From what I have heard, the Motown Exhibit at the Henry Ford Museum did a much better job at spotlighting what made Motown special, than Motown did for itself. I wonder if there's a catalog available from that exhibit that could have been purchased at the time.

There's a URL for the Motown Museum but it's just a "now under construction" page. I can't find any sites showing what the museum looks like. I did find this promotional web site:

http://www.motownmuseum.com/mtmpages/index.html

It doesn't have much information, but it does have a few photos. As usual, on the "Artists" page, The Marvelettes aren't even mentioned, just as Gladys Horton complained about in the '92 interview! So doesn't appear that much has changed.

[stephanie]

We finally find out what happened I read about poker games and all of that too.! Gladys has to be telling the truth because Martha wouldnt lie about something like that and Smokey wrote some of the Marvelettes biggest hits with Wanda on lead so it wouldnt make sense that this group wouldnt be on Motown 25! Very revealing Gladys is no dummy people in the music industry think the old timers dont know about publishing and what goes on behind closed doors they know because they have been hoodwinked. What is really sad is the way Stevie W, Michael Jackson and Diana Ross are always put up front as the main moneymakers for Motown [[oh and Marvin Gaye). I remember [[was it Mary Wilson) someone said Flos face had beeen cut out of one of the pictures in the museum. I asked someone why doesnt Berry Gordy give money to the museum and maintain it and why are they always asking for donations and a friend of mine said because it doesnt make money for him. At his age how much more money does he need? I would think he would care about his legacy and then Smokey is always coming out with the same old words about the Motown family and how Berry was misrepresented in Dreamgirls and all of this. Smokey made them [[the creators of the movie) issue an apology to Berry! If he can go get the calvary to do that he could have made a simple call and see if the Marvelettes still wanted to perform. This also lets me know Motown owned their name! I know business is ugly but this was a black owned company and you would have thought that although it is not their responsibility to take care of former artists Gladys is right they should have been invited to Motown 25 and had a say in the selling or use of the name. Heck keep the name let Gladys sing and get a percentage of the show although they know she wont attact 25,000 people so they would not have made much but right is right. I have seen in countless articles [[non Motown) how popular the Marvelettes were and still are and people are always asking why Motown never honored them on that show. Its criminal Im sorry and now poor Gladys is gone. Its time to make it right with Gladys, and Katherine. and Juanita.

[Jimi LaLumia]

no one can cover Gordy's tracks on this particular atrocity;
and Smokey Robinson tries to cover up things like the "Dream Girls" mess because as VP of Motown, Smokey was PART OF IT!

[randy_russi]

It has been suggested that Smokey was jealous of the Marvelettes getting a #1 record before the Miracles. However,
"Shop Around" was the first million-seller, but missed #1 [[it went to #2). However, he did work with them and did
produce and write some hits for the Marvelettes.

[marv2]

She blames him early in the interview for giving use of the "Marvelettes" name to Larry Marshak. One of the early books about Motown said it was lost in a poker game. I wonder what the truth is?

Well, she also said in an interview, on television, in 1990 that when she was really having trouble with her career she went to Smokey for help. He basically laughed at her and said "oh so you're down? Well then stay down!" What percipated that response, she did not say. She did go on to say some pretty strong things about Smokey and his alleged treatment of his former wife Claudette Robinson. She pointed to it as an indication of Smokey's character. Again, why she brought that up, she did not say. There have been more very rough like interchanges between Gladys and Smokey over the years that we will not get into OK? LOL!!!!!

[marv2]

I've never been there, but those I know who have say it still looks like a tacky thrown together affair. From what I have heard, the Motown Exhibit at the Henry Ford Museum did a much better job at spotlighting what made Motown special, than Motown did for itself. I wonder if there's a catalog available from that exhibit that could have been purchased at the time.

There's a URL for the Motown Museum but it's just a "now under construction" page. I can't find any sites showing what the museum looks like. I did find this promotional web site:

http://www.motownmuseum.com/mtmpages/index.html

It doesn't have much information, but it does have a few photos. As usual, on the "Artists" page, The Marvelettes aren't even mentioned, just as Gladys Horton complained about in the '92 interview! So doesn't appear that much has changed.

I use to volunteer at that Museum [[1986-87) just before they got the "Historical Site" designation. It was pretty rough I have to admit. Photos were hung using scotch tape, etc LOL! Without going further, that should give you an indication of "quality" of the displays...........

[smark21]

I went to the museum a few years ago. The upstairs part with the exhibits was nothing special. What makes the museum special is once you go down the stairs and see the offices and then the climax, walking into the Snake Pit. That's what makes a visit to the Motown Museum worthwhile, not those exhibits upstairs. The exhibits might be educational for someone who knows little or nothing about Motown, but does not hold much interest for those who have some knowledge. The kids who staff the place are nice though.

[marv2]

We finally find out what happened I read about poker games and all of that too.! Gladys has to be telling the truth because Martha wouldnt lie about something like that and Smokey wrote some of the Marvelettes biggest hits with Wanda on lead so it wouldnt make sense that this group wouldnt be on Motown 25! Very revealing Gladys is no dummy people in the music industry think the old timers dont know about publishing and what goes on behind closed doors they know because they have been hoodwinked. What is really sad is the way Stevie W, Michael Jackson and Diana Ross are always put up front as the main moneymakers for Motown [[oh and Marvin Gaye). I remember [[was it Mary Wilson) someone said Flos face had beeen cut out of one of the pictures in the museum. I asked someone why doesnt Berry Gordy give money to the museum and maintain it and why are they always asking for donations and a friend of mine said because it doesnt make money for him. At his age how much more money does he need? I would think he would care about his legacy and then Smokey is always coming out with the same old words about the Motown family and how Berry was misrepresented in Dreamgirls and all of this. Smokey made them [[the creators of the movie) issue an apology to Berry! If he can go get the calvary to do that he could have made a simple call and see if the Marvelettes still wanted to perform. This also lets me know Motown owned their name! I know business is ugly but this was a black owned company and you would have thought that although it is not their responsibility to take care of former artists Gladys is right they should have been invited to Motown 25 and had a say in the selling or use of the name. Heck keep the name let Gladys sing and get a percentage of the show although they know she wont attact 25,000 people so they would not have made much but right is right. I have seen in countless articles [[non Motown) how popular the Marvelettes were and still are and people are always asking why Motown never honored them on that show. Its criminal Im sorry and now poor Gladys is gone. Its time to make it right with Gladys, and Katherine. and Juanita.



Stephanie, I will say this......Gladys was not lying! She may have been a little too forthcoming which can create problems all unto itself.

Kat told me that they were not invited to Motown 25 and when Marvin Gaye asked her why not, she didn't know.

If Mary mentioned that she saw a picture of the Supremes with Florence cut out of it. She is not lying either. Mary came to visit in late 1988 while she was starring in the play "Beehive" across the river in Windsor. That picture had been on display since 1986 by that time. You see there was a decent sized b/w picture of the Supremes arriving in Japan at the airport in 1966 that was put up on one of the display boards back in the 80's that showed a couple of Japanese record execs, Mary Wilson, then Diana Ross and more guys from Japan. A while later, I saw the original picture and Florence was standing right in the middle of that picture. Someone took a scissors and cut her right out of it and then taped the remaining photo back together showing Mary and Diane side by side! LOL! I had to move a bunch of boxes up there; some of them contained old artwork, photos etc from album covers from the sixties.

True, the Museum at that time was in dire need of funding, donations and yes folks use to always go away asking why didn't Berry pump more money into it. Well he did! The Museum was a non-profit , at least it was way back then and Mrs. Edwards was responsible for the Museum, not Berry Gordy. After enough bad reviews, he did contribute substantial funding,but the bulk of the funding had to come from donations, fundraising events, corporate contributions [[which helped when the huge exhibit at The Henry Ford Museum at Greenfield Village in Dearborn went up in 1985).

The Museum has had major renovations and addtions done since the 80's and it is very much worth visiting today.

[Jimi LaLumia]

and I believe now, more than ever, that the 70's/'new' Supremes got the Horton treatment from Day One;
they wanted to hang onto Supremes fans, but there was no desire for a Ross-less version to succeed,and obviously no intention of allowing that to happen;
we see how they roll..

[BobC]

One thing I've noticed about a lot of Motown stars is that they seem to feel that Motown, whether it be Berry Gordy, Smokey, whomever, should take care of them forever--when most left the label voluntarily and bad-mouthed Motown at every turn. I am not judging whether or not their complaints are valid--I wasn't there--but you really can't expect to leave a company, dog it, and then go running back expecting it to support you. Smokey Robinson doesn't owe anybody anything and neither does Berry Gordy. I am always amazed that somebody like Mary Wilson, for example, bad-mouthed Motown in the late 70's but stayed with the company anyway--and then was mystified as to why there was little support for the 70's Supremes. Once again, I am not judging whether or not she had legitimate gripes--but if I were Berry Gordy, and read that stuff in the press, I wouldn't be chomping at the bit to promote her. I'm just being honest here. As far as any feud between Gladys Horton and Smokey is concerned--why on earth would Smokey be jealous of her or anyone else at Motown? Smokey outlasted them all--with the exception of Stevie Wonder and Lionel Richie. Smokey was Berry's most trusted business partner--and when Smokey had a few lulls in his own career, he never dogged Motown or Berry. That says a lot about his character, IMO.

[Roberta75]

One thing I've noticed about a lot of Motown stars is that they seem to feel that Motown, whether it be Berry Gordy, Smokey, whomever, should take care of them forever--when most left the label voluntarily and bad-mouthed Motown at every turn. I am not judging whether or not their complaints are valid--I wasn't there--but you really can't expect to leave a company, dog it, and then go running back expecting it to support you. Smokey Robinson doesn't owe anybody anything and neither does Berry Gordy. I am always amazed that somebody like Mary Wilson, for example, bad-mouthed Motown in the late 70's but stayed with the company anyway--and then was mystified as to why there was little support for the 70's Supremes. Once again, I am not judging whether or not she had legitimate gripes--but if I were Berry Gordy, and read that stuff in the press, I wouldn't be chomping at the bit to promote her. I'm just being honest here. As far as any feud between Gladys Horton and Smokey is concerned--why on earth would Smokey be jealous of her or anyone else at Motown? Smokey outlasted them all--with the exception of Stevie Wonder and Lionel Richie. Smokey was Berry's most trusted business partner--and when Smokey had a few lulls in his own career, he never dogged Motown or Berry. That says a lot about his character, IMO.

Very well stated BobC. I can tell we have another voice of reason on this forum which is a welcome addition to this forum IMO.

[BobC]

Thanks, Roberta! Glad to be here. I love the Motown story! I read all the show biz memoirs--whether I was a fan of the artist or not--but Motown has the most fascinating story IMO. I've read ALL the Motown books, and if you have any critical thinking skills at all, you can figure out the truth amidst all the personal recollections. One very telling statement came from Smokey, and it was so simple and direct I am surprised it never got any attention--he said of Florence Ballard, that some people can handle fame, and others can't. It really is that simple. Fame is HARD, and once you reach the top, there is nowhere to go but down. Imagine how humiliating it must be to have once been a part of one of the greatest groups of all time, and then having to apply for a job at a MacDonalds or whatever. I would never want to be famous.

[Jimi LaLumia]

Smokey outlasted them all ,even when his records weren't selling[[which was most of the time) because he was the crow sitting on Gordy's shoulder just like in a pirate movie;
he outlasted many others because, being the crow on the shoulder, the rug wasn't pulled out from under him as it was with many others;
and spin all you want, there is no justification for what has been done to Gladys Horton and The Marvelettes...voice of reason...hmmmm

[marv2]

Jimi it was in some cases worst than we will ever know. You see there were some people, those that were right along side of Smokey and them coming up there were not in awe........

[marv2]

To learn about what things were really like, we must turn to the actual participants. I suggest you buy the new book "Hype and Soul" !

[BobC]

Jimi--tell me what exactly was "done" to Gladys? Did she not leave the group and Motown because she had a child? I quit my job a month ago--so should I go around saying my employer owes me something? They don't. Now, I will agree that it was wrong, in an ethical sense, that Gladys was not allowed to tour using her old group's name--but what contract did she sign when leaving Motown? That's what it boils down to. If she signed away rights to the name, then Gladys did it to herself. And as far as not being given her "due," I can understand that her feelings were hurt and she's entitled to feel that way. However, let's be frank here, the Marvelettes were known, really, for one big pop song and a few minor hits that only collectors and Motown fans remember today. The Supremes, Temptations, 4 Tops, Stevie Wonder, etc. all had dozens of hits, which is why they are much more famous.

I have heard Eddie Kendricks, David Ruffin, Marvin Gaye, Mary Wilson, and many other Motown artists complain that they haven't received their 'due." What does that mean, exactly? What would rectify this "due" situation, in their minds? A statue? Gladys mentions a lack of a Gold Record, but as far as I can recall, nobody at Motown got gold records. Most of these artists [[probably not Gladys, I'll admit)made millions of dollars and they blew it all. These artists were loved by millions and that love allowed all of them to continue to tour and at least make a living, decades after they were past their prime. I'm really sorry to bring a bit of reality to this situation, but I think most of these artists are lucky to have been part of the Motown mystique--how many artists from the 60's, 70's or 80's can even still tour today? Not many.

[stephanie]

BobC I agree with everything you are saying and you are right it was a job and a former employer doesnt owe you anything.
However when it comes to history the Marvelettes have been treated like s***! They have gotten more letters to be in the RRHOF than a lot of other acts [[not Motowns fault they are not there though), Gladys wasnt really asking for anything in the interview except for some recognition. I get the impression that if she had gotten some recognition from the company and being on Motown specials she wouldnt be so upset. Mary Wells gets more honor than the Marvelettes do and they are not one hit wonders either! People who were there and have seen them live actually feel they were better performers than the Supremes [[as far as dance steps that is true). If you look at their body of work and the historical aspect of this group with Motown there is NO reason why they shouldnt be on some of those specials. Many people hate their jobs and cant leave so Mary Wilson saying something is not a shock but since she is in show business I guess making a public statement is different.

[Jimi LaLumia]

The Marvelettes had many hits, but there was one hit that deserved recognition;
the first #1 Billboard pop hit in Motown's history;
can you imagine if Smokey or Ross had delivered Motown's first #1 pop hit? we'd never hear the end of it;
despite "PlayBoy","Beechwood 45789",Hunter Gets Captured By The Game","MY Baby Must Be a Magician","Don't Mess with Bill"...
"PLEASE MR.POSTMAN" and the group deserve the recognition for putting Motown on the map with radio and distributors with that first Motown #1!..
in this industry, all that ever matters is #1 breakthoughs,and no rewriting or erasing of history will ever change the facts..so tell Smokey what he can do with his once in a while hit career..

[stephanie]

Its too bad we cant bring the Brits over here they would rally around Berrys house all night until the Marvelettes got some recognition!

[BobC]

Steph--I can sympathize with that aspect of Gladys' story--the lack of recognition--but how would anyone remedy this situation? And who can do that for her group? I came to knowing Motown in the 70's, not the 60's, and frankly I never even heard of the Marvelettes until I became interested in the Motown story. I knew "Postman" but that was it. I am not knocking them--just telling the truth. While "Postman" is undeniably a great pop record, it has, to my ears, the classic girl group sound of the 50's, not so much what has come to be known as the "Motown Sound." It was the rise of HDH that really cemented Motown's unique sound in the 60's. Maybe that's why the Marvelettes aren't as known as some of the other groups. I hear a very distinct change in sound in the records released in 1964, as opposed to those released even a year or two earlier.

All I'm trying to say is that so many Motown artists complain about not getting their due--but what would make them happy? Seriously?

[skooldem1]

Funny thing is everytime I watch a show that discusses the history of Motown, or read an article or book, the Marvelettes and that song, are always mentioned.

[Jimi LaLumia]

well, I guess you never watched the ultimate Motown show, "MOTOWN 25";
you know, the top rated NBC TV special saluting the history of Motown in which The Marvelettes do not exist;
as to the guy who never heard of The Marvelettes,well, that tells you all you want to know about Motown's adroit handling of the group that gave them their first #1;
what do they want?..acknowledgement of the fact i just mentioned..
not everyone gave Motown their first national #1, which opened the doors for what followed, only THE MARVELETTES did..so quit trying to downplay something that is not downplayable..

[BobC]

I stand corrected, Jimi--I have heard "Don't Mess With Bill." BUT--I never heard any of those other records until I listened to this interview with Gladys. By the time the 70's rolled around, when so many of the classic Motown stars started to struggle, those other songs were by and large forgotten. Even on oldies stations. People my age knew "Papa Was a Rolling Stone" and "Where Did Our Love Go" but sorry, we never heard of "Too Many Fish in the Sea" or "My Baby."

Life isn't fair. Berry was holding on for dear life just juggling the careers of his biggest groups like The Supremes and Temptations--and he was doing the best he could. As soon as any group saw a flop single, they turned on Berry [[as if Berry didn't want to make money). He had to make make painful decisions. At Motown 25, Diana Ross said "It's an odd thing, but Berry has never felt appreciated," and even Mary Wilson seemed to act like she didn't know why Berry felt that way. I can understand!

[BobC]

Jimi--every Motown book I've ever read has credited "Postman" as Motown's 1st number one record.

[stephanie]

Here we go again! Skool I can have sympathy for BobC because he only knows the 70s but YOU! Oh by the way no character assassination here I like you. In your defense YES the Marvelettes are mentioned BUT what Motown special [[and yes I know Wanda and is not mentally able to participate) or anything Motown have they been asked to be a part of? I have talked to Katherine Schaffner and she wants NO money from Motown and as a matter of fact she has not been as vocal about the recognition as Gladys has been in the past and even SHE feels the Marvellettes have been overlooked. For HER to feel this way its true. Katherine has no desire to sing again or perform and yes that statement is in writing. So for her to feel this way I dont think Gladys has an unwarranted gripe.

BobC the Four Tops, Temptations, Supremes etc had a longer lasting shelf life as far as the performing aspect of the Motown groups and have been honored and remembered. Gladys kept performing until she could or needed the money or whatever but in my mind the one way this could be remedied is for Motown to acknowledge them! Maybe its too late and I am just a diehard fan on a rant but when I heard about Motown 25 and saw it you should have seen or heard the number of people asking about how come the Marvellettes were not invited? For Marvin Gaye to ask that dont you think it might be somewhat of a major factor. On a lesser scale not general publicity wise but historically why wasnt James Jamerson invited?
Did they think he was going to cause a scene or something? One of the greatest bass players in the history of not only Motown but music MOST bass players know who this man is. I really dont want to believe that story I read about Jamerson having to get a ticket from a scalper I really dont. I know some will say that Diana, and Marvin and others will bring ratings but even though Martha and Jr Walker were there did you see how long they were on stage? Give me a break they could have given Linda Ronstadt and Adam Ants time to them.! If I here one more person say that Adam Ant and Linda Ronstadt were asked so younger viewers would tune in I will croak. Even if the Marvelettes didnt sing they could have interviewed Katherine or shown her like the did Ashford and Simpson! When you know Motown history or if you were born in the 60s Mr Postman was like My Guy, it was huge! The Carpenters even redid it and the Beatles. I could see if this discussion was about the Originals or the Elgins and dont get me wrong they have their place in Motown history but this was a major group that helped to catapault Motown.

[BobC]

Fair enough. I forgot Linda R and Adam Ant were even on that show. Whose idea was that? Ugh!

[marv2]

Its too bad we cant bring the Brits over here they would rally around Berrys house all night until the Marvelettes got some recognition!

Stephanie, you'd better quit! LOL!!!!

[Roberta75]

Here we go again! Skool I can have sympathy for BobC because he only knows the 70s but YOU! Oh by the way no character assassination here I like you. In your defense YES the Marvelettes are mentioned BUT what Motown special [[and yes I know Wanda and is not mentally able to participate) or anything Motown have they been asked to be a part of? I have talked to Katherine Schaffner and she wants NO money from Motown and as a matter of fact she has not been as vocal about the recognition as Gladys has been in the past and even SHE feels the Marvellettes have been overlooked. For HER to feel this way its true. Katherine has no desire to sing again or perform and yes that statement is in writing. So for her to feel this way I dont think Gladys has an unwarranted gripe.

BobC the Four Tops, Temptations, Supremes etc had a longer lasting shelf life as far as the performing aspect of the Motown groups and have been honored and remembered. Gladys kept performing until she could or needed the money or whatever but in my mind the one way this could be remedied is for Motown to acknowledge them! Maybe its too late and I am just a diehard fan on a rant but when I heard about Motown 25 and saw it you should have seen or heard the number of people asking about how come the Marvellettes were not invited? For Marvin Gaye to ask that dont you think it might be somewhat of a major factor. On a lesser scale not general publicity wise but historically why wasnt James Jamerson invited?
Did they think he was going to cause a scene or something? One of the greatest bass players in the history of not only Motown but music MOST bass players know who this man is. I really dont want to believe that story I read about Jamerson having to get a ticket from a scalper I really dont. I know some will say that Diana, and Marvin and others will bring ratings but even though Martha and Jr Walker were there did you see how long they were on stage? Give me a break they could have given Linda Ronstadt and Adam Ants time to them.! If I here one more person say that Adam Ant and Linda Ronstadt were asked so younger viewers would tune in I will croak. Even if the Marvelettes didnt sing they could have interviewed Katherine or shown her like the did Ashford and Simpson! When you know Motown history or if you were born in the 60s Mr Postman was like My Guy, it was huge! The Carpenters even redid it and the Beatles. I could see if this discussion was about the Originals or the Elgins and dont get me wrong they have their place in Motown history but this was a major group that helped to catapault Motown.

Motown 25 was over 28 years ago. No offense but isn't it time to move on Stephanie?

[ladonna]

Good Lord people! I heard, Linda and Adam were there as part of the agreement with whichever network Motown brokered the deal with. Sentimentality is one thing, show BUSINESS is another.

[Roberta75]

Good Lord people! I heard, Linda and Adam were there as part of the agreement with whichever network Motown brokered the deal with. Sentimentality is one thing, show BUSINESS is another.

Well said ladonna.

[stephanie]

I am usually not passionate about a lot of things other than God and life [[isnt that enough) I could even care less about how likes Otis and Diana and Smokey but when it comes to history [[black history and Motown) folks need to get it right. I say this because even in politics [[ms M knows what I mean) history has been rewritten and this stuff is handed down. I dont hate Berry Gordy I dont know him and I dont dislike anyone but when you have the money, and the power and the fact that you were THERE do get it RIGHT there is no excuse Im sorry. I will give a prime example there are people NOW who think Diana Ross discovered the Jackson Five because of Motowns PR. Well of course years later it came out that she didnt that is was Bobby Taylor and Gladys Knight. If nobody finds this out in some of Diana's early stage shows she comes out and says here is a group of young boys I discovered and she sings I Want you Back. People who have not heard the truth will think SHE discovered them and it would be a false part of her and the Jacksons legacy. People think [[young kids) Diana Ross put Flo Ballard out of the Supremes and we know that is not true. If it had not been for Martin Luther King and the civil rights movement I might not be able to be typing at this computer right now or those who died for the rights of blacks. I can tell you right now there are people who dont want blacks to know their history. When Gladys talked about Smokey overstepping the decision as to why the Marvelettes were not at Motown 25 I was shocked! I didnt want that story to be true that is the first time I have heard this. If it is not true I will take back everything I said. Even Mary Wilson said in her book Supreme Faith that when she felt the Supremes were not being promoted properly she went to Smokey and he said talk to Berry. Smokey and Diana had a special in of course they were not going to feel neglected. Marv the Brits get it right and you know how analytical they are! Its not right to not have some history and acknowledgement especially when it is Motown and black history all together. Enough of my rant!

[stephanie]

Ladonna and Roberta Im not going to rant and yes I am going to let it go but this was not a variety show it was a celebration of the history of Motown. Ok a deal was brokered I didnt know that but when you have a man being honored [[this was no surprise special to him by the way) and a woman Miss DePasse who has enough pull to get on her knees and beg certain people to be there who didnt WANT to come you can pick up a phone and call a Marvellette those are my last words on this subject.

[marv2]

Steph--I can sympathize with that aspect of Gladys' story--the lack of recognition--but how would anyone remedy this situation? And who can do that for her group? I came to knowing Motown in the 70's, not the 60's, and frankly I never even heard of the Marvelettes until I became interested in the Motown story. I knew "Postman" but that was it. I am not knocking them--just telling the truth. While "Postman" is undeniably a great pop record, it has, to my ears, the classic girl group sound of the 50's, not so much what has come to be known as the "Motown Sound." It was the rise of HDH that really cemented Motown's unique sound in the 60's. Maybe that's why the Marvelettes aren't as known as some of the other groups. I hear a very distinct change in sound in the records released in 1964, as opposed to those released even a year or two earlier.

All I'm trying to say is that so many Motown artists complain about not getting their due--but what would make them happy? Seriously?

Bluntness Alert!!!!

First of all if the Marvelettes had gotten PAID, that would have been a great start. They didn't ! Oh sure they were given a few bucks and a few little diamond and gold trinkets and shit like that at company Christmas parties.

They could have been, should been invited to and all expenses paid for all of the Marvelettes to attend [[if not to perform) at those big , lavish Motown television events. They should have been introduced and acknowledged properly at Motown 25 and again at Motown Returns to The Apollo! Hell , you've seen the clips of the Marvelettes performing at the Apollo as a part of the "Motortown Revue". Those girls were working their butts off to not only please the crowd, but to also promote Motown Records! They should have been there in 1985. Hello and a special shout out to Ms. Suzanne DePasse!

They didn't even interview any of them for "Motown 40" in 1998!

I believe if Motown wanted to at that time, they could have gotten the name "Marvelettes" back and at least license it to Gladys Horton or any of the other members of the group even if they weren't going to award it to them outright. So as I see it , Gladys had many good substantial reasons to have been unhappy with the way she and the Marvelettes have been treated.

How to rectify past wrong doings now? Good question especially now that Gladys Horton and Georgette have now passed on, it doesn't matter I guess in their cases, but while all the rest are still here something should be done. How about paying them?!

[ladonna]

Ever hear the one about Lana Turner being discovered sipping a soda at Schwab's Drugs, Stephanie? That's the SHOW part of show business.

With regard to black history, isn't it more important to know that African-Americans are descendants of kings and queens, than what record was the first number one at Motown? Just sayin'.

[marv2]

Funny thing is everytime I watch a show that discusses the history of Motown, or read an article or book, the Marvelettes and that song, are always mentioned.

Skooldem, they have to mention it for historical accuracy. However not everyone has had the opportunity to read "that chapter" in Motown history. So many people don't take the time to read. You know what I'm saying.....

[marv2]

Motown 25 was over 28 years ago. No offense but isn't it time to move on Stephanie?

Nah, it ain't time yet! Move on to where? There is nothing really happening with todays music anyway. This is what we do here. We discuss the greatest period of Pop & Soul music.

[Jimi LaLumia]

if something like the internet existed in the 60's, Mr.Gordy wouldn't have been able to pull the s,,stuff that he pulled without being called on it..
the absence of social media didn't allow us to call 'foul' back then...
so I'll call it NOW!

[stephanie]

Ladonna,
I agree black history is more important but Motown is a part of black history but YES to your question. Let me give you an example of how people feel about this the second one may shock you. I interviewed Earl Young who was the main drummer on a lot of hits written by Gamble and Huff. We have spoken many times and do you know what his one wish is? To be recognized in the RRHOF as a sideman. More than anything that is his one wish so his daughter will remember his legacy.

Second one - Joey Levine who was the lead singer on bubblegum hits like 1310 Fruitgum Company and others did an interview in a magazine and claimed that he sang lead on something and Ron Dante [[lead voice of the Archies ..Sugar Sugar)
saw the article and got upset. He called Joey up and said to him "You are successful now you could have at least given me credit for singing lead on that song". Here I am thinking to myself this man is in his 50s - 60s now what does he care if someone thinks Joey Levine sang lead on some song but it was important to him! When I saw that it got me to thinking how important Motown music was to me and the history. I could care less who sang on Edison LightHouse songs or the 1910 Fruitgum company but guess what...one of the members of the 1910 Fruitgum company found some blog and said he wanted to take the time to correct incorrect information that is on the net about the group. This was some bubblegum site I found a few years ago by accident. If this had been Motown or Stax I would have been more interested but hey there are bubblegummers out there who are passionate about 1910 Fruitgum Company, Kasenetz-Katz Orchestral Circus and Edison Lighthouse and all of these studio concotions. By the way he was dispelling the rumors that they were not a real band.
I think us Motown fans are not as bad as Judy Garland fans those people will kill for their queen....LOL

This historical stuff is important to them not matter what the genre!

[kenneth]

Ladonna,
...Second one - Joey Levine who was the lead singer on bubblegum hits like 1310 Fruitgum Company and others did an interview in a magazine and claimed that he sang lead on something and Ron Dante [[lead voice of the Archies ..Sugar Sugar)
saw the article and got upset. He called Joey up and said to him "You are successful now you could have at least given me credit for singing lead on that song". Here I am thinking to myself this man is in his 50s - 60s now what does he care if someone thinks Joey Levine sang lead on some song but it was important to him! When I saw that it got me to thinking how important Motown music was to me and the history. I could care less who sang on Edison LightHouse songs or the 1910 Fruitgum company but guess what...one of the members of the 1910 Fruitgum company found some blog and said he wanted to take the time to correct incorrect information that is on the net about the group. This was some bubblegum site I found a few years ago by accident. If this had been Motown or Stax I would have been more interested but hey there are bubblegummers out there who are passionate about 1910 Fruitgum Company, Kasenetz-Katz Orchestral Circus and Edison Lighthouse and all of these studio concotions. By the way he was dispelling the rumors that they were not a real band.
I think us Motown fans are not as bad as Judy Garland fans those people will kill for their queen....LOL

This historical stuff is important to them not matter what the genre!

Joey Levine was the one with the nasal voice of 1910 Fruitgum Co.

Indeed, Ron Dante was the voice of the Archies as well as the Cuff Links [["Tracy").

Another singer, Tony Burrows, sang lead for Edison Lighthouse [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edison_Lighthouse)'s "Love Grows [[Where My Rosemary Goes) [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love_Grows_%28Where_My_Rosemary_Goes%29)" [[February 1970); White Plains [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Plains_%28band%29)' "My Baby Loves Lovin' [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Baby_Loves_Lovin%27)" [[March 1970); The Pipkins [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pipkins)' novelty song [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novelty_song) "Gimme Dat Ding [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimme_Dat_Ding_%28song%29)" [[April 1970); and The First Class [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_First_Class)' "Beach Baby [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beach_Baby)" [[July 1974). He also sang lead vocals on The Brotherhood of Man [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brotherhood_of_Man)'s "United We Stand [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_We_Stand_%28song%29)", which reached #10 on the UK charts and also reached #13 in the U.S. In fact, there's a whole CD devoted to him, mostly familiar songs, and I don't think any are credited to his real name!

[Jimi LaLumia]

can you imagine the reaction of sports fans if historical data were tampered with, when they can recite exact info from decades ago? there would be BLOOD!..
well, pop music fans are just as devoted as sports fans are,and NO ONE is re writing history on my watch..ya heard?

[Jimi LaLumia]

I can just imagine Gordy in the 60's saying 'no one's gonna care about this shit ten years from now"..'
well, if that was the case...SURPRISE!!

[kenneth]

I can just imagine Gordy in the 60's saying 'no one's gonna care about this shit ten years from now"..'
well, if that was the case...SURPRISE!!

Well, he knew enough to hang onto Jobete even when he sold Motown. That was visionary. I'm not sure if he still owns it, however.

[Jimi LaLumia]

I was refering to all the behind the scenes skull duggery and back stabbing that was in progress in the Florence Ballard/Gladys Horton era..
I know things that could buy him another castle he'd never let go of..like publishing..smart man...sometimes very nasty man..
guess to 'make it' you have to be..

[marv2]

One thing I've noticed about a lot of Motown stars is that they seem to feel that Motown, whether it be Berry Gordy, Smokey, whomever, should take care of them forever--.

Bob, you know where they got that from? HIM! Berry himself! He use to tell them that!

[marv2]

Fair enough. I forgot Linda R and Adam Ant were even on that show. Whose idea was that? Ugh!

Yeah they were on there as were T.G. Sheppard, Jose Feliciano and Charlene![[they didn't make the broadcast version however.) Rick James elected along with Gladys Knight & the Pips to not participate. I don't know what the deal was with Teena Marie.

I do know that line about having Adam Ant on would bring in younger views was bullshit. You see, I was in that 18-34 year old demographic at that time and no one I knew was anxious to see Adam Ant on a Motown music special!

[marv2]

Good Lord people! I heard, Linda and Adam were there as part of the agreement with whichever network Motown brokered the deal with. Sentimentality is one thing, show BUSINESS is another.

The network was NBC and I promise you no at NBC pushed for Adam Ant to be on that program as he was still largely unknown in America by that time having just made his television debut on American Bandstand a few months earlier in 1982! Linda Rondstat was considered only because she had some modest success covering a few of Smokey Robinson's songs. That was Motowns' and Suzanne DePasse's idea to have her on in an attempt to show Motown music's crossover and to which depths it had gone in the general American Pop Culture. Heck, they could have and should have had RARE EARTH on who were far more famous and authentic than Adam Friggin Ant! It was a dumb decision to do it that way by Suzanne DePasse in my opinion!

[marv2]

if something like the internet existed in the 60's, Mr.Gordy wouldn't have been able to pull the s,,stuff that he pulled without being called on it..
the absence of social media didn't allow us to call 'foul' back then...
so I'll call it NOW!

You're right in a lot of ways Jimi! Shit , I was grown before I learned that Florence Ballard did not quit the Supremes to start an antique business! LOL!!!!

[kenneth]

The network was NBC and I promise you no at NBC pushed for Adam Ant to be on that program as he was still largely unknown in America by that time having just made his television debut on American Bandstand a few months earlier in 1982! Linda Rondstat was considered only because she had some modest success covering a few of Smokey Robinson's songs. That was Motowns' and Suzanne DePasse's idea to have her on in an attempt to show Motown music's crossover and to which depths it had gone in the general American Pop Culture. Heck, they could have and should have had RARE EARTH on who were far more famous and authentic than Adam Friggin Ant! It was a dumb decision to do it that way by Suzanne DePasse in my opinion!

Wasn't this the special that Boy George was on as well? Or am I thinking of a different one? I forgot about Adam Ant...he typified 80s style over substance...empty glam. At least Boy George could sing though he certainly did get messed up later.

[marv2]

Well, he knew enough to hang onto Jobete even when he sold Motown. That was visionary. I'm not sure if he still owns it, however.


No, Mr. Gordy sold Jobete. He sold Motown Records in 1988 for $61 million to MCA/Boston Ventures only to have them turn around 3 years later in 1991 and sell it for $330 million to Polygram!

[marv2]

Wasn't this the special that Boy George was on as well? Or am I thinking of a different one? I forgot about Adam Ant...he typified 80s style over substance...empty glam. At least Boy George could sing though he certainly did get messed up later.

Kenneth, NO! The special you are thinking was "Motown Returns to the Apollo" from 1985 when Motown help celebrate the 50th Anniversary of the Apollo theater. You are right they had Boy George on, as well as George Michaels but at least both of them could sing! Find me someone, anyone that can name an Adam Ant song?

[kenneth]

Kenneth, NO! The special you are thinking was "Motown Returns to the Apollo" from 1985 when Motown help celebrate the 50th Anniversary of the Apollo theater. You are right they had Boy George on, as well as George Michaels but at least both of them could sing! Find me someone, anyone that can name an Adam Ant song?

I hate to say I remember one called "Puss in Boots," though I don't think [[thankfully) I ever heard it...just remembered the title. God help me.

[marv2]

We finally find out what happened I read about poker games and all of that too.! Gladys has to be telling the truth because Martha wouldnt lie about something like that and Smokey wrote some of the Marvelettes biggest hits with Wanda on lead so it wouldnt make sense that this group wouldnt be on Motown 25! Very revealing Gladys is no dummy people in the music industry think the old timers dont know about publishing and what goes on behind closed doors they know because they have been hoodwinked. What is really sad is the way Stevie W, Michael Jackson and Diana Ross are always put up front as the main moneymakers for Motown [[oh and Marvin Gaye). I remember [[was it Mary Wilson) someone said Flos face had beeen cut out of one of the pictures in the museum. I asked someone why doesnt Berry Gordy give money to the museum and maintain it and why are they always asking for donations and a friend of mine said because it doesnt make money for him. At his age how much more money does he need? I would think he would care about his legacy and then Smokey is always coming out with the same old words about the Motown family and how Berry was misrepresented in Dreamgirls and all of this. Smokey made them [[the creators of the movie) issue an apology to Berry! If he can go get the calvary to do that he could have made a simple call and see if the Marvelettes still wanted to perform. This also lets me know Motown owned their name! I know business is ugly but this was a black owned company and you would have thought that although it is not their responsibility to take care of former artists Gladys is right they should have been invited to Motown 25 and had a say in the selling or use of the name. Heck keep the name let Gladys sing and get a percentage of the show although they know she wont attact 25,000 people so they would not have made much but right is right. I have seen in countless articles [[non Motown) how popular the Marvelettes were and still are and people are always asking why Motown never honored them on that show. Its criminal Im sorry and now poor Gladys is gone. Its time to make it right with Gladys, and Katherine. and Juanita.

Stephanie, ever been curious as to why the sudden switch to Wanda Rogers singing the lead on Marvelettes records after they had been having more than a reasonable amount of success with Gladys in the lead? I know you have heard the argument as to why once hits are scored with a particular lead voice that the company mandated that that "voice" would be considered the "sound" of a particular group? Not so in the case of the Marvelettes, huh? LOL!

Haven't you ever wondered......just a little bit?

[carlo]

Marv: Berry did own the Jobete catalog for a number of years after he had sold Motown in '88. Check out this article:

http://www.nytimes.com/1997/07/02/business/berry-gordy-sells-emi-a-stake-in-catalogue-of-motown-songs.html

I believe he sold the second half of the catalog to EMI a few years ago.

[marv2]

I hate to say I remember one called "Puss in Boots," though I don't think [[thankfully) I ever heard it...just remembered the title. God help me.

You are truly blessed if you remember that, because I have NEVER heard of that song and I pretty much have listened to just about everybody in a variety of music genres over the years.

[kenneth]

You are truly blessed if you remember that, because I have NEVER heard of that song and I pretty much have listened to just about everybody in a variety of music genres over the years.

Mea culpa...!

[marv2]

Marv: Berry did own the Jobete catalog for a number of years after he had sold Motown in '88. Check out this article:

http://www.nytimes.com/1997/07/02/business/berry-gordy-sells-emi-a-stake-in-catalogue-of-motown-songs.html

I believe he sold the second half of the catalog to EMI a few years ago.


You are exactly right Carlo and THANK YOU for the link to that article

Marv

[carlo]

Stephanie: I don't mind you talking about Motown 25 at all. I don't get why some members of this forum tend to get irked when other members choose to discuss past events. The typical response I see on here over and over again is, "It's time to move on". I respectfully disagree with that. As someone else pointed out already, this forum functions to serve that very purpose...discussing the past, whether that be music, music history, etc. There are so many Supremes and Diana Ross discussions on this forum day in and day out, many of which relate to the old tired topic of "reunions", I think we should be permitted to have at least one discussion on The Marvelettes. Nothing wrong with that.

[carlo]

You are exactly right Carlo and THANK YOU for the link to that article

Marv

No problem-o!

[ladonna]

I don't think anyone feels Motown 25 shouldn't be discussed, or anything else for that matter; I think it is the bitterness that some fans express that many feel should be, by now, let go of, and moved away from; not the discussion.

[marv2]

How in the heck does those two subjects relate? How are you going to decide which historical facts are worthy of knowing and which ones are not? There is more than enough room in the realm of African American History [[which is actually an important part of American History in general) to include it all!

[marv2]

Stephanie: I don't mind you talking about Motown 25 at all. I don't get why some members of this forum tend to get irked when other members choose to discuss past events. The typical response I see on here over and over again is, "It's time to move on". I respectfully disagree with that. As someone else pointed out already, this forum functions to serve that very purpose...discussing the past, whether that be music, music history, etc. There are so many Supremes and Diana Ross discussions on this forum day in and day out, many of which relate to the old tired topic of "reunions", I think we should be permitted to have at least one discussion on The Marvelettes. Nothing wrong with that.

My Champ! You said that much better than I could have, but dont' forget I am older than you.........hehehehhe! Just kidding, you make a great point Carlo. I think folks that continually use the term, "it's time to move on" do that for selfish reason that I don't even want to waste time on trying to analyze at the moment.

[carlo]

I don't think anyone feels Motown 25 shouldn't be discussed, or anything else for that matter; I think it is the bitterness that some fans express that many feel should be, by now, let go of, and moved away from; not the discussion.

I'm not sure if I would necessarily call it "bitterness". It's an opinion. I share the same opinion as Stephanie, Marv, Jimi and others. I believe that The Marvelettes were mistreated by Motown. People can say what they want, but the writing is on the wall. The fact that Motown's pioneer group wasn't even invited to sit in the audience at Motown 25 speaks volumes. This is just one example of many.

[carlo]

Marv, earlier in the discussion you had mentioned how in the 80's there was a photo of Diana and Mary on display at the Motown Museum and Flo was cut out of the middle...it must have been the same one that was featured in the Diana Ross & the Supremes 1968 tour program. Flo was cut out of the middle to reflect the lineup change. I guess someone had the stupid idea of using that exact same photo in the museum.

[marv2]

I'm not sure if I would necessarily call it "bitterness". It's an opinion. I share the same opinion as Stephanie, Marv, Jimi and others. I believe that The Marvelettes were mistreated by Motown. People can say what they want, but the writing is on the wall. The fact that Motown's pioneer group wasn't even invited to sit in the audience at Motown 25 speaks volumes. This is just one example of many.

Here is another thing people need to consider that Glady's touched upon in that interview and that being because of the Marvelettes early success, Motown was able to afford things like Artist Development ,etc, etc that all of it's classic artists benefitted from! When Diana Ross demanded that Berry Gordy go and find Gladys Horton and make her sit upfront when the Supremes played the Copa for that first time, Diane never even gave it a thought that had it not been for Gladys and her group the Marvelettes, the Supremes may not have received that "extra polish" that allowed them to play places like the Copa with great success.

Gladys, being the kind hearted person that she was , never understood why it was so important to Diana Ross that she be present to watch Diane, Mary and Florence on their big night!

[marv2]

Marv, earlier in the discussion you had mentioned how in the 80's there was a photo of Diana and Mary on display at the Motown Museum and Flo was cut out of the middle...it must have been the same one that was featured in the Diana Ross & the Supremes 1968 tour program. Flo was cut out of the middle to reflect the lineup change. I guess someone had the stupid idea of using that exact same photo in the museum.



Carlo, I am glad you brought that up. It may have been the same picture from that tour program. I need to look at it. [[maybe you could scan it sometime, but don't go through a lot of trouble) But the "doctored" picture displayed at the museum came out of a box along with a lot other stuff left over from the graphic arts dept, or whatever they called the dept that designed the album covers in those days. I just remember we had to move a lot boxes upstairs one time. Thinking about it now, I don't know the exact person that butchered that picture,but I have a good idea when and why they did it now.

[ladonna]

I'm not sure if I would necessarily call it "bitterness". It's an opinion. I share the same opinion as Stephanie, Marv, Jimi and others. I believe that The Marvelettes were mistreated by Motown. People can say what they want, but the writing is on the wall. The fact that Motown's pioneer group wasn't even invited to sit in the audience at Motown 25 speaks volumes. This is just one example of many.





Re-read some of the posts, Carlo; there is bitterness to be found there, and for fans to be carrying it after all these years, is not healthy. Gladys stated that she wasn't bitter, and that instead it was Wanda, but after listening to that interview, I beg to differ.

[carlo]

Here is another thing people need to consider that Glady's touched upon in that interview and that being because of the Marvelettes early success, Motown was able to afford things like Artist Development ,etc, etc that all of it's classic artists benefitted from! When Diana Ross demanded that Berry Gordy go and find Gladys Horton and make her sit upfront when the Supremes played the Copa for that first time, Diane never even gave it a thought that had it not been for Gladys and her group the Marvelettes, the Supremes may not have received that "extra polish" that allowed them to play places like the Copa with great success.

Gladys, being the kind hearted person that she was , never understood why it was so important to Diana Ross that she be present to watch Diane, Mary and Florence on their big night!

Good point! Very true.

[Jimi LaLumia]

ross wanted Gladys there, and tried to get Martha Reeves there as well, to rub it in their faces..."look at ME!!"..as Mary says,"she's always been that way"..
but in effect, she was running the company, and was obviously threatened by/competitive with the other girls;
she didn't demand for Marvin Gaye,Levi Stubbs or David Ruffin to be dragged to the show

[stephanie]

When it came to Martha and the Vandellas, the Marvelettes, and other groups at Motown I dont know why Miss Ross was so eager for them to see her and what she accomplished. By this time the Supremes were at the helm at Motown and she just had to prove to them she was on top. They were no longer the no hit Supremes I think she wanted to rub it in their faces that she had Berry and could do what she wanted [[to a certain extent). Motown didnt make her this way though she was always competitive according to those who knew her and I guess it carried on into her performances and her character at Motown. One thing I will say about the Marvelettes is that you never heard anyone bad mouthing them they were pretty nice women. I wish there was footage of them performing at other clubs other than the Apollo. I have talked to two people who have seen them in the latter 60s and both parties said they were great!

[carlo]

One thing I will say about the Marvelettes is that you never heard anyone bad mouthing them they were pretty nice women.

Exactly. This is one of the reasons I like them so much.

[marv2]

ross wanted Gladys there, and tried to get Martha Reeves there as well, to rub it in their faces..."look at ME!!"..as Mary says,"she's always been that way"..
but in effect, she was running the company, and was obviously threatened by/competitive with the other girls;
she didn't demand for Marvin Gaye,Levi Stubbs or David Ruffin to be dragged to the show



Jimi, you know I had never thought about that. She didn't demand that the fellas be there [[although I can highly imagine David Ruffin telling her to flip off LOL!), it is a very interesting point you made. She apparently DID want to rub it in the faces of Gladys and Martha. Wow........

[marv2]

When it came to Martha and the Vandellas, the Marvelettes, and other groups at Motown I dont know why Miss Ross was so eager for them to see her and what she accomplished. By this time the Supremes were at the helm at Motown and she just had to prove to them she was on top. They were no longer the no hit Supremes I think she wanted to rub it in their faces that she had Berry and could do what she wanted [[to a certain extent). Motown didnt make her this way though she was always competitive according to those who knew her and I guess it carried on into her performances and her character at Motown. One thing I will say about the Marvelettes is that you never heard anyone bad mouthing them they were pretty nice women. I wish there was footage of them performing at other clubs other than the Apollo. I have talked to two people who have seen them in the latter 60s and both parties said they were great!

Stephanie, you just made me think of something. Has there or were there anything you've read or heard about the other ladies such as Mary Wells, the Marvelettes , Martha & the Vandellas or even Florence or Mary for that matter , acting like that towards fellow Motown Artists?

[marv2]

I was a kid when I got to see the Marvelettes perform. It was 1966 and by then it was just Gladys, Katherine and Wanda. I remember them singing in a park concert, City Park [[Toledo, Ohio). My brother remembers much more of that show than I do unfortunately.

[marv2]

Exactly. This is one of the reasons I like them so much.


Carlo, if you went to Detroit and went by Kat's house to see her and told her you were a big fan and really enjoyed their work......she'd bake you one of her famous pound cakes! That is how she is! Just a great ,right on lady!

[carlo]

Yeah, it's true. I heard Kat makes an amazing pound cake!

[kenneth]

It's too bad these ladies didn't have better personal management who didn't have ties to Motown. Some of the grievances are absolutely legitimate, others seem a little, shall we say, perhaps naive. The example I'm thinking of is that in Marc Taylor's book, he describes Katherine's experience writing the song "I Don't Want to Do Wrong," which Gladys Knight & the Pips recorded, and that Kat was very upset that she had to share writing credits with others who contributed very little to the song. After that she said, she never wanted to write again. It seems a shame to give up a gift like that - I mean that was a great song and could have been a second career for her - for that reason. Someone who was more connected to the music business could have advised her that this is common "stock and trade" in the industry, that producers take writers' credits, people who add a line or two take credit, and others do nothing but bargain for credit somehow. I say this is naive on her part not because it isn't a bad practice which she shouldn't have abhorred, but because if she'd had a little thicker skin or a strong management team, she could have weathered this and then gone on to greater success in the related field of songwriting.

I honestly don't know, was that really the only song she wrote as it seems to say in the book? I would hate to think so.

[mellow_q]

Kenneth,

I couldn't have said it better, and, yes, to my knowledge, that is the only song she wrote.

Marc T.

[kenneth]

Kenneth,

I couldn't have said it better, and, yes, to my knowledge, that is the only song she wrote.

Marc T.

Marc, Nice to hear from you! I loved your book. I was the reader who sent you the Law Review article about the musical group impostors. Thanks for your response, Kenneth

[Jimi LaLumia]

I've said it many times and I'll say it again:'
I love Diana Ross, she got me into Motown in the first place in 1964,as I was about to become a teenager, and I even love her combative antics, it's human nature;
but I don''t love an unfair fight, where the other parties have their hands tied behind their backs[[by Berry Gordy) because then, it's not really a fight, it's bullying..
Ross had to suffer with 'no hits" for several years while Martha and Gladys had big hits,and I'm sure the childhood trauma of never being "as good as" her sister, the doctor[[everything stems from childhood,believe me, I know) led her to not accept second best ever again...and she found a way to do that..and that drive turned her into....DIANA ROSS!!
[[but I don't like the unfair fight part of the program...not a bit)
and I don't doubt that she helped tip the scales ,unfavorably, for the other female artists at Motown, not a single doubt in my mind...
but I still love her!..what can I say..

[BobC]

I'm with you Jimi-if not for Diana Ross' "artistic temperament," Nobody'd be talking about her today! I like bad girls, anyway! I'd follow Diana Ross around, waiting for something awful to happen!

True Story: I was shoved outta the way by Diana Ross back in the 80's at a nightclub in Manhattan. I still brag to people that I've been shoved out the way by Diana Ross!

[Jimi LaLumia]

and let's face it, you know that while Taraborelli details all the shocking behavior of "Call Her Miss Ross",he lives for it; he loves every second of it..I know i do;
I remember an interview with Ru Paul where he said"I read "Call Her Miss Ross",and I loved Diana more after that, and then I read Mary Wilson's book, and I loved Diana EVEN MORE after THAT!"...
right on, Ru Paul!

[BobC]

Me too! I loved those books!

By the way, if you all haven't read Boy George's memoirs "Take it Like a Man"--you should! Lots of Motown stories in there! The book is trashy and hilarious--and his stories from "Motown Returns to the Apollo" are priceless.

[Jimi LaLumia]

while we're plugging fun, trashy books full of industry dirt[[but sadly, nothing on Motown), there's the new auto bio "Lick Me: How I Became Cherry Vanilla" by Warhol/Bowie/new wave superstar Cherry Vanilla..
try it, you'll like it..trust me..
she was the first female night club DJ in NYC in the 60's and she DOES talk about playing Marvelettes records in the big NY clubs

[BobC]

Oh goody! I'll order that book right now! Thanks for the trashy tip!

[Kamasu_Jr]

I don't think anyone feels Motown 25 shouldn't be discussed, or anything else for that matter; I think it is the bitterness that some fans express that many feel should be, by now, let go of, and moved away from; not the discussion.

Well said. Some people love to hold grudges for things they had no part of. They made Flo Ballard, the poster child of losers and victims and now it's poor Gladys Horton and the Marvelettes. The late Eddie Kendricks once said: "A lot of Motowners love to complain about what Motown didn't do for us, but they don't acknowledge what Motown did do for us..."
Some people love to complain & bitch over things they have no right to and can't change. I agree...let it go.

[Roberta75]

while we're plugging fun, trashy books full of industry dirt[[but sadly, nothing on Motown), there's the new auto bio "Lick Me: How I Became Cherry Vanilla" by Warhol/Bowie/new wave superstar Cherry Vanilla..
try it, you'll like it..trust me..
she was the first female night club DJ in NYC in the 60's and she DOES talk about playing Marvelettes records in the big NY clubs

If you enjoy a dishy, trashy but fun read I strongly urge you to purchase "The Fabulous Sylvester" by Joshua Gamson.

I grew up listening to Sylvester as my cousin was a huge fan so that made the book even more enjoyable for me.

[ladonna]

while we're plugging fun, trashy books full of industry dirt[[but sadly, nothing on Motown), there's the new auto bio "Lick Me: How I Became Cherry Vanilla" by Warhol/Bowie/new wave superstar Cherry Vanilla..
try it, you'll like it..trust me..
she was the first female night club DJ in NYC in the 60's and she DOES talk about playing Marvelettes records in the big NY clubs




Does she dish on The Supremes, Miss Ross?

[BobC]

Jimi--I just bought the book on Amazon--I'll let you know how I liked it--but I can already tell by the title and photo on the cover that I will!

Roberta--I have read one book on Sylvester [[years ago and I can't remember the title) and it was anything but funny. It was mostly about him dying of AIDS and I never realized how sheltered I was about that disease until I read that. Horrifying isn't even doing it justice. Nobody should have to suffer that fate--the poor guy. About the only nice thing I got from that book is that Sylvester always started his day playing my friend Nona Hendryx's song "Nighbird." I hope the song brought him some peace.

Ladonna--if you want some funny Diana Ross stories, get Boy George's book. It is full of Diana's "artistic temperament." Also--I know I'll get lynched for saying this--but Tony Turner's books are some of the funniest chit I have ever read in my life. I don't care if the stories are a bit...exaggerated for comedic effect. Just that one story about Florence B taking over the limousine is worth the price of the book!

[Jimi LaLumia]

I love Tony Turner,met him several times at THE BUNKHOUSE on Long Island,where I was manager and the resident DJ..
the Cherry Vanilla book is not a Motown book,but I know this inside the music biz tell all[[lots of dirt and sex-she started out as a groupie, before becoming a New Wave star,aligned with Andy Warhol and David Bowie) is right up the alley of most folks here;it's a fun,and very absorbing read..

[Roberta75]

Roberta--I have read one book on Sylvester [[years ago and I can't remember the title) and it was anything but funny. It was mostly about him dying of AIDS and I never realized how sheltered I was about that disease until I read that. Horrifying isn't even doing it justice. Nobody should have to suffer that fate--the poor guy. About the only nice thing I got from that book is that Sylvester always started his day playing my friend Nona Hendryx's song "Nighbird." I hope the song brought him some peace.

The book I am referring to was written in 1996 BobC. See reviews and synopsis below.

Imagine a pied piper singing in falsetto, wearing sequins, and leading the young people of the nation to San Francisco and on to a liberation where nothing was straight-laced or old-fashioned. And everyone, finally, was welcome--to come as themselves. This is not a fairy tale. This was real, mighty real, and disco-sensation Sylvester was the piper.

Yale-trained sociologist Joshua Gamson uses Sylvester's life to lead us through the story of the 1970s, when a generation took off its shame. Celebrity, sociology, and music history mingle in this endlessly entertaining story of a singer who embodied the freedom, spirit, and flamboyance of a golden moment in American culture.

"The Fabulous Sylvester is a well written, touching, dignified biography of a gay, black diva who never really fit into any minority but managed to achieve his dreams of stardom. Now that's what I call a man."--John Waters

"[A] superbly written, wildly entertaining, frequently hilarious, and finally bittersweet saga."--Time Out New York

"Delightful . . . I'm not sure I've ever read an account of a life that has so much sheer joy, raffishness, and humor on each page. . . . As fables go, this is a good one."--Newsday

[ladonna]

Boy George's Take it Like a Man has been ordered. Thanks for the recommendation, peeps!

[BobC]

Hey--I totally believe you, Roberta--I was just saying that I obviously read a very different bio.

[Roberta75]

Hey--I totally believe you, Roberta--I was just saying that I obviously read a very different bio.

Oh I wasn't doubting you in any way my love. I knew you must have read a different biography.

My best to you.

Roberta

[loveblind]

Gladys had been soar at Smokey for years . He basically snatched her from the forefront and put Wanda Young as lead. Gladys loved Wanda, but there was some resentment and it was hurtful for her.

[marv2]

Gladys had been soar at Smokey for years . He basically snatched her from the forefront and put Wanda Young as lead. Gladys loved Wanda, but there was some resentment and it was hurtful for her.


Loveblind you are very correct. They way it was done was rather cruel by any standards.

[rod_rick]

Loveblind you are very correct. They way it was done was rather cruel by any standards.

Did Smokey produce any songs with Gladys on lead? If not do you think Smokey was trying to have his own version of Supremes with Wanda on lead? Just a thought

[marv2]

Did Smokey produce any songs with Gladys on lead? If not do you think Smokey was trying to have his own version of Supremes with Wanda on lead? Just a thought

I don't recall if Smokey ever produced any songs with Gladys on the lead [[including album cuts). I do know that he never wrote any songs intended for Gladys to sing the lead most definitely! I do not believe Smokey had thoughts of creating his own version of the Supremes, because after all, the Supremes were his girls! There was a family thing going on there which Wanda benefitted from even though she herself did not push to become the new lead.

[theboyfromxtown]

Smokey also gave the spotlight to David Ruffin for the Temptations with "My Girl". And the results were very fruitful and was given accolades because of it.

I am sure Smokey felt he was doing the right thing by giving the spotlight to Wanda and I can well understand why Gladys might have not been entirely happy about it. With Wanda being married to Bobby, there was an additional family link through his wife which must have been hard to ignore.

The position never called for an alternative lead singer for Diana Ross in the Supremes but if the situation called for it, it would have made good sense to try either Florence or Mary.

In the cold light of day, the Marvelettes' success had cooled considerably by 1966 but "Don't Mess With Bill" changed all that. From a business point of view, it made good sense to have Wanda leading the group because it was her sound that was making the money for the company and also for the group.

I loved Gladys as the lead singer but I also loved Wanda too. I suspect most of us feel that way.

[smark21]

Did Smokey produce any songs with Gladys on lead? If not do you think Smokey was trying to have his own version of Supremes with Wanda on lead? Just a thought

Yes he did. Among them: He's a Good Guy [[Yes, he is), As Long as I Know He's Mine, and Paper Boy.

[marv2]

Yes he did. Among them: He's a Good Guy [[Yes, he is), As Long as I Know He's Mine, and Paper Boy.

Yes he did what? Produce, write or both on those songs?

[luke]

I believe in the book, Kat talks about Wanda's ego increasing as time went on, and her becoming extremely difficult for a number of reasons. The book was certainly well intentioned but not much new in it.

[captainjames]

Interesting interview with Gladys~~~
I hope Gladys was able to make peace with some her fellow Motowners before leaving us. It sounds like a lot of things were said during Gladys' exit at Motown and I hope they were able to forgive one another.

[robbert]

I doesn't seem to me many of you have an account on Facebook. If you did, you would be able to find even MORE interesting information on The Marvelettes and other Motown artists and alumni. Mr. Stephen Woods writes well, among others, and his work is always an interesting read. Just the other day he put the complete Marvelettes Story on Facebook, in several parts.

Here's the link to the page Salute to the Original Marvelettes on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/#!/groups/199531853403779/?notif_t=group_activity.

[smark21]

Yes he did what? Produce, write or both on those songs?

According to the liner notes of the Marvelettes Deliver set, Smokey Robinson wrote and produced He's a Good Guy [[Yes He Is) and As Long as I Know He's Mine, both of which were released as A-sides. Robinson produced Paper Boy and wrote the song in conjunction with Janie Bradford. So he used Gladys on lead, though obviously he employed Wanda more often. IMO, the Smokey/Wanda recordings represent one of the best producer/vocalist collaborations at Motown--the two of them just clicked musically.

[smark21]

I believe in the book, Kat talks about Wanda's ego increasing as time went on, and her becoming extremely difficult for a number of reasons. The book was certainly well intentioned but not much new in it.

One comment I remember from the book was that even after Wanda started singing leads on the A-sides, Motown always considered Gladys the leader of the group and the member they consulted with. And her departure had an impact on the group's relationship with Motown.

[Jimi LaLumia]

I just joined the Marvelettes Facebook page;
and for those on Facebook, you're more than welcome to join mine..
http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Jimi-LaLumia/182293495170473

[theboyfromxtown]

Robbert

Is it possible to copy and paste that information here for those who are not on facebook..like me!

[marv2]

According to the liner notes of the Marvelettes Deliver set, Smokey Robinson wrote and produced He's a Good Guy [[Yes He Is) and As Long as I Know He's Mine, both of which were released as A-sides. Robinson produced Paper Boy and wrote the song in conjunction with Janie Bradford. So he used Gladys on lead, though obviously he employed Wanda more often. IMO, the Smokey/Wanda recordings represent one of the best producer/vocalist collaborations at Motown--the two of them just clicked musically.


He did not write any of those songs specifically FOR Gladys Horton.

[smark21]

He did not write any of those songs specifically FOR Gladys Horton.

Fair enough, I have no proof or documentary evidence that he wrote those songs specifically for Gladys Horton. He could very well have pulled those songs out of his "trunk" when he was slated to do some sides with Gladys on lead. They are certainly among his most generic and uninteresting songs. Pleasant enough [[except for the silly and dated Paper Boy), but nothing special.

But you stated in a post above: " I do know that he never wrote any songs intended for Gladys to sing the lead most definitely!"

That's a very confident statement. What are your sources to support this assertion? Are they primary or secondary?

[marv2]

Fair enough, I have no proof or documentary evidence that he wrote those songs specifically for Gladys Horton. He could very well have pulled those songs out of his "trunk" when he was slated to do some sides with Gladys on lead. They are certainly among his most generic and uninteresting songs. Pleasant enough [[except for the silly and dated Paper Boy), but nothing special.

But you stated in a post above: " I do know that he never wrote any songs intended for Gladys to sing the lead most definitely!"

That's a very confident statement. What are your sources to support this assertion? Are they primary or secondary?


The source? Gladys Horton, "Live in LA" with Tanya Hart, 1990 BET.

[robbert]

Robbert

Is it possible to copy and paste that information here for those who are not on facebook..like me!
I will give it a try, John. Facebook can be a nasty copy&paste source, though.

[Roberta75]

The source? Gladys Horton, "Live in LA" with Tanya Hart, 1990 BET.

Could you please post the link or clip where this was said. I'd love to see, hear or read it.

Many thanks in advance.

Roberta.

[marv2]

Could you please post the link or clip where this was said. I'd love to see, hear or read it.

Many thanks in advance.

Roberta.

NO! It is on a VHS tape, in a box, in storage, somewhere with about 400-500 tapes from 80's and 90's. There is no money [[or time) in it for me to go through all that trouble. Thanks!

[Roberta75]

NO! It is on a VHS tape, in a box, in storage, somewhere with about 400-500 tapes from 80's and 90's. There is no money [[or time) in it for me to go through all that trouble. Thanks!

Thank the Lord all your tapes are archived for posterity. Have you ever considered working with a museum to do an exhibition focusing on your vast video tape collection. Maybe the Museum of Radio or Television or the Motown Museum would underwrite the exhibit. Food for thought.

I must congratulate you on your marvelous memory marv2. It's no small feat remembering a Gladys Horton quote from a 1990 interview. Well done.

Roberta

[marv2]

Thank the Lord all your tapes are archived for posterity. Have you ever considered working with a museum to do an exhibition focusing on your vast video tape collection. Maybe the Museum of Radio or Television or the Motown Museum would underwrite the exhibit. Food for thought.

I must congratulate you on your marvelous memory marv2. It's no small feat remembering a Gladys Horton quote from a 1990 interview. Well done.

Roberta

Anytime....

[smark21]

The source? Gladys Horton, "Live in LA" with Tanya Hart, 1990 BET.

OK, I believe that. Do you recall what she specifically stated? Was she upset that Smokey didn't give her the same attention as Wanda? Or do you think Smokey should have concentrated on recording songs for Gladys and kept Wanda in the background?

[smark21]

NO! It is on a VHS tape, in a box, in storage, somewhere with about 400-500 tapes from 80's and 90's. There is no money [[or time) in it for me to go through all that trouble. Thanks!

YOur storage unit must be packed. Have you thought of transferring your tapes to disc or uploading to your computer or a flash drive to better preserve them? What if a water leakage were to occur at your unit? It might destroy your tapes.

[marv2]

OK, I believe that. Do you recall what she specifically stated? Was she upset that Smokey didn't give her the same attention as Wanda? Or do you think Smokey should have concentrated on recording songs for Gladys and kept Wanda in the background?

This as close as I remember.....[[Gladys) "I went to Smokey and asked him if he could write me some songs to help me get my career back on track..... he turned me down, he never wrote a song for me!" paraphrasing here. She went on to basically say that no one from the early days would or could help her.

What shocked me about all of it and which is probably why I remember this is because years before that there was a rougher like version/ explanation as to why Smokey did not write songs with Gladys in mind. It was the "street" story that I am not posting here. LOL!

[marv2]

YOur storage unit must be packed. Have you thought of transferring your tapes to disc or uploading to your computer or a flash drive to better preserve them? What if a water leakage were to occur at your unit? It might destroy your tapes.



You have to be kidding me right? I have stuff in storage from Colorado to Boston in garage, basement, some in a house owned by my uncle in Michigan that did get water damage, to New York! This is not unique in modern America guys. LOL!

[robbert]

I'm working on my copy & paste job on a manuscript regarding The Marvelettes, written by Stephen Woods. It'll take some time. If you really can't wait, go to http://www.facebook.com/#!/groups/19...group_activity and try and look Stephen's attributions up for yourself. It'll be a labyrinth, don't say I haven't warned you...

There are several Facebook pages tributed to all sorts of Motown related persons and/or subjects. The Supremes have several pages, mind you. All with lots of pictures, often rare ones, that people bought in auctions. Also the FLOS are there with their own page.
And Blinky Williams. And Katherine Anderson Schaffner [[Marvelettes). And Martha Reeves. And Betty Kelley. And Louvain Demps [[Andantes). And Frank Wilson. And Scherrie Payne. And Mary Wilson. And Nick Ashford/Valerie Simpson. And Gladys Knight. And Jack Ashford. And Otis Williams [[Temptations). And Barbara McNair. And Clay McMurray.
And... well go see. They ALL have their own page on Facebook!

Go to Facebook and check it out!

[robbert]

Footage of Gladys Horton of The Marvelettes in the year 2000. She is interviewed about the bogus Marvelettes groups.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ub02gNrnbCM&feature=player_embedded

[motony]

I don't think Smokey purposely snatched the leads from Gladys & gave to Wanda.I think the problem was Smokey wanted a female singer to replace the loss of Mary Wells.Motown & Smokey tried with Kim Weston,Brenda Holloway & Carolyn Crawford &others & it didn't work.He always liked Wandas voice and he recorded her on"Don't Mess With Bill" .When it hit then you keep goin with what hits.

[randy_russi]

Well, Smokey first used Wanda on "You're My Remedy" in '64. Wanda and Gladys ALWAYS shared leads--B side of the
first single is led by Wanda [[So Long Baby) and Wanda did several leads on the first lp too.

[randy_russi]

By the way, in the interview it apparent Gladys is angry at Smokey, but this has NOTHING to do with Wanda singing
lead on many of his productions [[Gladys did "He's A Good Guy" and "As Long As I Know..."), she is angry that he
was responsible for Larry Marshak getting the rights to the group name.

[franjoy56]

This is the post im referring to where gladys blasts smokey gordy and motown for loosing the marvelettrs name

[midnightman]

This thread is wild. I don't even think I even seen it until today but most of the responses are nuts.

Gladys said she HEARD. Not that she knew.

BIG difference.

This is an "I heard it through the grapevine" situation... and y'all fell right into the trap. WEAK.

[midnightman]

By the way, in the interview it apparent Gladys is angry at Smokey, but this has NOTHING to do with Wanda singing
lead on many of his productions [[Gladys did "He's A Good Guy" and "As Long As I Know..."), she is angry that he
was responsible for Larry Marshak getting the rights to the group name.

First off, all the names of the groups were in control of Motown. How would Smokey easily give that up to some pool shark like Larry? This has basically been urban folklore for years but when Gladys' estate and Katherine sued, it was against Marshak. BG, Smokey and Motown weren't named in the papers.

What Gladys said doesn't mean there's proof they gave it up like that. Because that would mean Marshak OWNED the name and he didn't! That's why they were free to sue him to stop using the name against them. This is the "proof"?

Then I got a bridge to sell you in San Francisco.

[franjoy56]

what gladys had to say was legitimate and how she felt about the situation. Im just sorry gladys didn't live to see the outcome of the lawsuit filed in the estate of gladys and marvelette member Catherine. Had she lived she would have been part owner of the name.


First off, all the names of the groups were in control of Motown. How would Smokey easily give that up to some pool shark like Larry? This has basically been urban folklore for years but when Gladys' estate and Katherine sued, it was against Marshak. BG, Smokey and Motown weren't named in the papers.

What Gladys said doesn't mean there's proof they gave it up like that. Because that would mean Marshak OWNED the name and he didn't! That's why they were free to sue him to stop using the name against them. This is the "proof"?

Then I got a bridge to sell you in San Francisco.

[marv2]

This thread is wild. I don't even think I even seen it until today but most of the responses are nuts.

Gladys said she HEARD. Not that she knew.

BIG difference.

This is an "I heard it through the grapevine" situation... and y'all fell right into the trap. WEAK.

Smokey Robinson said some really trashy, lowdown stuff to Gladys Horton, to her face when she asked him why he was giving all of the leads [[meaning on the singles) to Wanda. This is not hearsay. I believed as soon as I heard it. I know how people in Detroit are or can be..........BLUNT! LOL!!!!

[marv2]

First off, all the names of the groups were in control of Motown. How would Smokey easily give that up to some pool shark like Larry? This has basically been urban folklore for years but when Gladys' estate and Katherine sued, it was against Marshak. BG, Smokey and Motown weren't named in the papers.

What Gladys said doesn't mean there's proof they gave it up like that. Because that would mean Marshak OWNED the name and he didn't! That's why they were free to sue him to stop using the name against them. This is the "proof"?

Then I got a bridge to sell you in San Francisco.

That is not true. As we have come to learn over the years, not all of the acts names were trademarked nor did Motown routinely trademark the names of all of their groups.

[marv2]

what gladys had to say was legitimate and how she felt about the situation. Im just sorry gladys didn't live to see the outcome of the lawsuit filed in the estate of gladys and marvelette member Catherine. Had she lived she would have been part owner of the name.

I agree it was sad. She worked her butt off in her later years too.

[midnightman]

The Tony Turner love in this thread lol

[franjoy56]

I remember seeing her in long island in 07 on a oldies bill billed as gladys horton of the marvelettes. I came back stage to say hello she was happy to see me it was not her best performance she seemed weak and it was the last time i saw her. I actually met her in 99 at t vghof she was a bundle of fun and information

[RanRan79]

what gladys had to say was legitimate and how she felt about the situation. Im just sorry gladys didn't live to see the outcome of the lawsuit filed in the estate of gladys and marvelette member Catherine. Had she lived she would have been part owner of the name.

It's unfortunate that Gladys allowed hearsay to dictate her feelings. As the lawsuit revealed, the Marvelettes name was never gambled away. So I think at this point shouldn't that subject be put to rest? It never happened and aren't we glad it didn't? Had Larry been lawfully given the name by Motown [[Smokey never could've given it away) there probably would have been nothing Kat could do about it. Score one for the good guys[[girls)!!!

[midnightman]

Look, people, direct the anger at just one person in this mess: LARRY MARSHAK.

And be glad the war is over and that Kat and Gladys' estate OWNS the name now. It's over.

[marv2]

I remember seeing her in long island in 07 on a oldies bill billed as gladys horton of the marvelettes. I came back stage to say hello she was happy to see me it was not her best performance she seemed weak and it was the last time i saw her. I actually met her in 99 at t vghof she was a bundle of fun and information

Gladys was a trooper. Remember she performed wearing that eye patch on one of TJ Lubinsky's PBS Specials?