Gordy passed on Aretha?

[Jimi LaLumia]

I read that here recently; lucky for Aretha that he did;
can you imagine how things would have wound up for her, she certainly wouldn't have become the "Queen Of soul", at best, she'd have wound up in a Gladys Knight type situation, and like Knight, would have fled the label first chance she got;
if Gordy had signed her, he could have kept her from deflecting the attention from Miss Ross, which Aretha certainly did in the late '60s...
I'm a Ross fan, just saying, is all..
and I love Aretha's 60's output for Atlantic Records

[arrr&bee]

I may catch some flak for this but the sixties aretha was too powerful a vocalist for motown and i think that berry know it too,now i love all the motown ladies[yes diana too]but we all know that aretha would've blown any of em away[gladys included]that's my penny's worth!!

[robb_k]

3402
I read that she and her father approached Gordy early in Tamla's history [[she had already recorded for JVB and Chess Records. Gordy turned her down. Then, supposedly, Gordy approached HER, later [[maybe just before her contract ended with Columbia?), and she turned HIM down.

[marv2]

I may catch some flak for this but the sixties aretha was too powerful a vocalist for motown and i think that berry know it too,now i love all the motown ladies[yes diana too]but we all know that aretha would've blown any of em away[gladys included]that's my penny's worth!!

You will not get any flak here, because that is the truth! All the kids in the neighborhood were in awe of Aretha's singing and that includes Smokey Robinson, Mary Wilson and Diane Ross!

[vcq]

I've recently [[re)discovered Yvonne Fair and Brenda Holloway, and in addition to the aforementioned Gladys, these ladies weren't given the sort of treatment that their careers deserved @ Motown.

[Jimi LaLumia]

I am a huge Diana Ross fan since 1964, when I was about to become a teenager, but I have no illusions that no female performer at Motown would have been ALLOWED to over shadow Miss Ross; too bad the ladies that signed with the label weren't hip enough to figure that out[[or they were just so happy to get a deal that none of the rest mattered..UNTIL they'd been signed and then, it was too late,and their lack of chart toppers at Motown made them 'box office poison' elsewhere..
I've seen this game before, in early 70's glitter/glam rock, with MainMan,the production company run by Tony[[Berry Gordy) DeFries to make David [[Diana Ross) Bowie a star,woe unto the other Mainman signees,Lou Reed,Mott The Hoople,Iggy Pop & The Stooges,Mick Ronson, Cherry Vanilla, and Wayne [[who is now Jayne) County; same script,different cast

[nabob]

Everybody seems to be forgetting that Motown was a business. Promotion was based on who would bring in the most revenue. Talent had nothing to do with promotion. Resources were scarce. The bets were placed on the favored horses.

[Jimi LaLumia]

fine,but there's a big difference between betting on a favored horse,and intentionally pulling the rug out from under the others in the race..
that's just not very good business,and everyone talked about this imbalance, from Martha Reeves and Gladys knight right up to Marvin Gaye...were they part of a conspiracy?

[daddyacey]

"I read that she and her father approached Gordy early in Tamla's history [[she had already recorded for JVB and Chess Records. Gordy turned her down. Then, supposedly, Gordy approached HER, later [[maybe just before her contract ended with Columbia?), and she turned HIM down."

I read the same type of thing , only it was that it was the Rev Franklyn that made the choice.

[roger]

Its interesting how this has now been turned into a thread discussing DIANA ROSS!!

Certainly Miss Ross was #1 in the pecking order at Motown and got the best promotion etc. but nobody forced all those people to buy those SUPREMES and DIANA ROSS records, they did so because they liked them and somehow the whole DIANA ROSS/SUPREMES package appealed to people who normally weren't too interested in Motown/R&B music. Mr Berry was smart enough to realise that.

And .. although this has come up zillions of times over the years, I have never been able to understand why Miss Knight is always brought up as an example of talent "wasted" by Motown .. when she left the label she was having one of the biggest hits of her entire career with "Neither One Of Us [[Wants To Be The First To Say Goodbye)", which on the Billboard listings got to #1 R&B and #2Pop. And I say that as someone who would rather listen to Miss Knight than Miss Ross any day of the week [[ Miss Ross does have her moments but Miss Knight could sing the telephone directory and it would still sound good to me ).

I think that if ARETHA FRANKLIN had joined Motown then she would have been in direct competition with GLADYS KNIGHT for the rootsier end of Motown's output [[ assuming that Miss Knight had already signed for the company ) and neither one of them would have benefitted .. indeed I think both of them would have wanted to be the first to say goodbye .. :)

Roger

[marv2]

fine,but there's a big difference between betting on a favored horse,and intentionally pulling the rug out from under the others in the race..
that's just not very good business,and everyone talked about this imbalance, from Martha Reeves and Gladys knight right up to Marvin Gaye...were they part of a conspiracy?

No they were not part of a conspiracy. It's just the way it was.......

[Jimi LaLumia]

as I said, I've been a devoted Ross fan since 1964, but that doesn't mean I have to wear rose colored glasses;
yes, Gladys had some big records at Motown, but there was never the resultant push ,p.r. wise,that would have accompanied those records if she'd been on RCA ,Columbia or Atlantic;
for that matter, The Marvelettes had Motown's first national #1 pop record and look what happened to them[[Miss Ross was NOT a fan);
Gordy was infatuated/in love, whatever,but that should have been the total determining factor as to how the company was rub; ah,l'amour

[Nothing But Soul]

After the Supremes had a string of number one hits and were one of the few American acts that was successfully competing with the British invasion, I think Berry Gordy decided that "The Sound of Young America" was the future of the company. Sure, he still had his Soul label for rootsier artists like Gladys Knight, Junior Walker and Shorty Long, but he really wanted to sell as many records to white kids as possible. I'm not sure that Aretha would have been a great fit for such plans. Aretha did have nine records that hit the Pop Top 10 during her first two years with Atlantic, which conincided with the heyday of soul music in America, but after that it was three years before she had another record that went to top ten on the pop charts.

[Jimi LaLumia]

As i said, I was/am an A1 Supremes/Ross fan, I was buying those records,phoning in requests at NY radio[[when "In and Out Of Love" wasn't moving up the chart fast enough at 77WABC AM in NY, I called them up and accused them of being racists...lol..I was 15 years old..and the following week, the record jumped up to #14..lol
I totally supported and craved the Rise of Ross; I just didn't know about the collateral damage until a decade or two later

[smark21]

Not everyone can be number 1. Besides what matters now is the quality of the music and the value of the work, regardless of how it charted when it first came out or what sort of promotion it received. As it turned out, things worked out very well for Aretha by not signing to Motown and her critical credibility and artistic legacy are much stronger these days than that of Diana Ross and The Supremes.

[soulster]

Jimi, I believe it was me who wrote that about how it's better that Gordy didn't get Aretha. I stand by that claim.

I'm a much bigger Aretha fan than Ross fan. Ross is no match for Aretha in any way, shape or form. They aren't even in the same class. Aretha could mop up the floor with Ross. I can put on any Aretha album on Atlantic up to 1976 and it will be like an event. And, according to Jerry Wexler, Aretha was the real producer of all those albums, as far as directing the sessions was concerned.

[soulster]

After the Supremes had a string of number one hits and were one of the few American acts that was successfully competing with the British invasion, I think Berry Gordy decided that "The Sound of Young America" was the future of the company. Sure, he still had his Soul label for rootsier artists like Gladys Knight, Junior Walker and Shorty Long, but he really wanted to sell as many records to white kids as possible. I'm not sure that Aretha would have been a great fit for such plans. Aretha did have nine records that hit the Pop Top 10 during her first two years with Atlantic, which conincided with the heyday of soul music in America, but after that it was three years before she had another record that went to top ten on the pop charts.

And, there it is: Aretha is a soul singer, and Ross is a pop singer. The Supremes songs were pop fluff, while Aretha took it home! Motown was all about selling palatable R&B to white people, and Atlantic/Stax didn't care who went along for the soul train. They did not compromise. Having said that, Both Franklin and Pickett put out some powerful pop records, "See Saw" and "Everybody Needs Somebody To Love", respectively.

[Jimi LaLumia]

Ross herself said, in a Rolling Stone interview,"Aretha has the pipes!"...so there ya go,it was no big secret; my original point was that it would have been a disaster for aretha if she'd signed up with Gordy,now knowing what his game plan was

[soulster]

"I read that she and her father approached Gordy early in Tamla's history [[she had already recorded for JVB and Chess Records. Gordy turned her down. Then, supposedly, Gordy approached HER, later [[maybe just before her contract ended with Columbia?), and she turned HIM down."

I read the same type of thing , only it was that it was the Rev Franklyn that made the choice.

What I always understood was that when her contract came up at Columbia, John Hammond wanted to keep her. Gordy wanted her, but could not compete with Atlantic's bid. The icing was that Aretha was granted some level of artistic freedom, something that Berry Gordy would never allow.

I don't see where her father would have had any power. If I understand it correctly, it was Aretha's husband Ted White who was her manager at the time, and influenced her to sign with Atlantic.

[soulster]

Everybody seems to be forgetting that Motown was a business. And Atlantic wasn't? Jerry Wexler was either also a lawyer, or was as shrewd as one, and a crafty one, at that.

[soulster]

You will not get any flak here, because that is the truth! All the kids in the neighborhood were in awe of Aretha's singing and that includes Smokey Robinson, Mary Wilson and Diane Ross!

When Aretha came out, my sister left the Supremes, and most Motown music, behind. Once Aretha Arrived, she even stopped buying most 45s. She only owned one Supremes album, but had all of the Aretha albums, and a few Temptations albums too. She got into Sly and Isley Brothers. My point is that after a certain point, as with pop/rock music, Motown was seen as innocent fluffy music in a world bogged down with Viet Nam, civil rights, assassinations, drugs, police brutality,protests, hippies, and free love. Motown no longer fit. That's why Norman Whitfield was allowed to take over the Temptations, and Gordy attempted to get socially relevant hits with the Supremes. Go back to what it was like when "Reflections" came out in 1967 sounding like The Beatles, sang about being a born of a single mother, or The Tempations sing about being on "Cloud Nine", being a drug reference. By contrast, Aretha was already there. She didn't sing about youthful issues, but she sang about the things we all deal with, mature relationship issues, and sex [[Dr. Feeeeeeelgood in the morning, indeed)!

[marv2]

When Aretha came out, my sister left the Supremes, and most Motown music, behind. Once Aretha Arrived, she even stopped buying most 45s. She only owned one Supremes album, but had all of the Aretha albums, and a few Temptations albums too. She got into Sly and Isley Brothers. My point is that after a certain point, as with pop/rock music, Motown was seen as innocent fluffy music in a world bogged down with Viet Nam, civil rights, assassinations, drugs, police brutality,protests, hippies, and free love. Motown no longer fit. That's why Norman Whitfield was allowed to take over the Temptations, and Gordy attempted to get socially relevant hits with the Supremes. Go back to what it was like when "Reflections" came out in 1967 sounding like The Beatles, sang about being a born of a single mother, or The Tempations sing about being on "Cloud Nine", being a drug reference. By contrast, Aretha was already there. She didn't sing about youthful issues, but she sang about the things we all deal with, mature relationship issues, and sex [[Dr. Feeeeeeelgood in the morning, indeed)!

Soulster, I think that was very typical [[what your sister did). Thinking back on that time now, sure Motown, the Tempts, Supremes, Stevie and Martha & Marvin were still cool, but they went way into background once Aretha hit! My mother and all her friends, relatives etc were all into music. For the women and particularly Black Women, Aretha became like their High Priestess! LOL! It was nothing to hear them "talk back to the records" when either agreeing with something Aretha was singing about or to encourage her to sing their story, because that was exactly what she was doing!

[ladonna]

Who ultimately had the bigger career; Ross or Franklin? Diana Ross simply put had wider appeal than Aretha; Gordy was right.

[marv2]

Who ultimately had the bigger career; Ross or Franklin? Diana Ross simply put had wider appeal than Aretha; Gordy was right.


I don't know. I do know this. Aretha just played Jones Beach here this past week [[some one posted the NY Times article about it). The last time Diana Ross attempt to do a concert at Jones Beach, she was cancelled due to lack of ticket sales. I believe it was that Return to Love tour.

Aretha has won 18 competitive Grammys and two honorary Grammys, to my knowledge, Diane has none. Rolling Stone magazine ranked her atop its list of The Greatest Singers of All Time, as well as the ninth greatest artist of all time. So I don't understand what you mean?

[Jimi LaLumia]

Both careers are equally huge in different ways;
the difference is that aretha is viewed as a team player[[she actually showedup to be inducted into the rock& roll hall of fame);
Ross' rep as super diva and egoist supreme has not done her too much good, nor did the doomed sub-premes tour!
however,Ross has been successfully touring the country non stop for over a year,and when I saw her in March 2010 at Radio City music Hall, the place was sold out to the rafters

[ladonna]

Awards, movie, television movies, television specials, HBO specials and record sales, aside; who has had the wider appeal? Ross is an international star, and is still going strong. Aretha, for the most part, only plays the domestic United States and her draw as a concert entertainer continue to diminish. Overall, yes, the both are huge; however, taking the entire spectrum into account, Ross has had the larger career and has enjoyed wider appeal.

[marv2]

Awards, movie, television movies, television specials, HBO specials and record sales, aside; who has had the wider appeal? Ross is an international star, and is still going strong. Aretha, for the most part, only plays the domestic United States and her draw as a concert entertainer continue to diminish. Overall, yes, the both are huge; however, taking the entire spectrum into account, Ross has had the larger career and has enjoyed wider appeal.

That's fluff, run of the mill stuff! Give me something real. Better yet, give me something I can feel, that's what Aretha did! She made an impact on American Culture!

[soulster]

Diana Ross simply put had wider appeal than Aretha

Ross may have been better know, but Franklin had more talent.

I'm not exactly sure how this turned into a pissing match.

[ladonna]

Who was more talented is subjective too. It's not a pissing contest; at least for me, but to deny that Ross has had wider appeal is laughable.

[soulster]

Awards, movie, television movies, television specials, HBO specials and record sales, aside; who has had the wider appeal? Ross is an international star, and is still going strong. Aretha, for the most part, only plays the domestic United States and her draw as a concert entertainer continue to diminish. Overall, yes, the both are huge; however, taking the entire spectrum into account, Ross has had the larger career and has enjoyed wider appeal.

No, it's about quality. Franklin, as mentioned above, is a world renowned, multi-Grammy winner, multi-talented singer and musician. Aretha is also critically acclaimed, and her catalog enjoys constant sales. And, Aretha doesn't have an ego that prevents her from having fun! She had a fun little role in the Blues Brothers Movie. Franklin was still getting hits when Ross stopped.

That's all I am going to contribute to this pissing match.

Bottom line: Gordy lost the bidding war no matter how much spin was applied to it. Had Gordy won, he would have tried to turn her into to a pop singer dinging teen toons. Franklin would have gotten frustrated. Wexler knew exactly what to do: he took her back to church, something John Hammond run Columbia Records didn't understand until it was too late.

[ladonna]

Well, the question I posed had to do with "wider appeal", and why Gordy chose to go with Ross, I will let y'all debate about the other stuff.

[soulster]

Who was more talented is subjective too. It's not a pissing contest; at least for me, but to deny that Ross has had wider appeal is laughable.

I've said all i'm going to say before this thread gets stupid with the obsessed Ross fans.

Bye!

[marv2]

No, it's about quality. Franklin, as mentioned above, is a world renowned, multi-Grammy winner, multi-talented singer and musician. Aretha is also critically acclaimed, and her catalog enjoys constant sales. And, Aretha doesn't have an ego that prevents her from having fun! She had a fun little role in the Blues Brothers Movie. Franklin was still getting hits when Ross stopped.

That's all I am going to contribute to this pissing match.

Bottom line: Gordy lost the bidding war no matter how much spin was applied to it. Had Gordy won, he would have tried to turn her into to a pop singer dinging teen toons. Franklin would have gotten frustrated. Wexler knew exactly what to do: he took her back to church, something John Hammond run Columbia Records didn't understand until it was too late.


She had a lot fun here too:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVawmqtn818

[jack020]

Stiil I think Diana sold far more records worlwide than Aretha!

[roger]

Stiil I think Diana sold far more records worlwide than Aretha!

That would certainly be true in Britain jack020.

Up to 2000 ARETHA had had one #1 hit here .. her duet with GEORGE MICHAEL .. "I Knew You Were Waiting For Me", plus two top ten entries .. "Respect" and "I Say A Little Prayer" .. three top 20 entries .. "Don't Play That Song", "Spanish Harlem" and "Who's Zooming Who" and another 16 entries in the lower part of the charts.

DIANA ROSS had had three number ones .. "Baby Love" [[ as a Supreme ), "I'm Still Waiting" and "Chain Reaction" twenty Top 10 hits, and a further nine that entered the U.K. Top 20 [[ Solo and as a Supreme ).

So Miss Franklin has had only six top 20 U.K. hits whereas Miss Ross has had thirty-two!! I think L.P. sales would be very similar.

One of the things that has held back ARETHA FRANKLIN's international career is that she doesn't seem to like to fly. I don't recall her appearing "live" in Britain in the last 40 years, if at all. DIANA ROSS regularly appears over here.

Roger

[marv2]

Stiil I think Diana sold far more records worlwide than Aretha!

Aretha has the most million-selling singles of any female artist.

[randy_russi]

Yvonne was mentioned above. She had actually been with James Brown as had
Tammi Terrell before joining Motown, although I don't think she went directly
to Motown after leaving the James Brown Revue. She didn't really get promoted
at Motown until around the mid-70s. Also, the company sent her out as an
opening act for the Jackson 5. I think they did this with Chuck Jackson too.
All those little teeny-bopper girls weren't interested in these very adult-oriented
artists.
Anyway, Yvonne also played a role in Lady Sings The Blues.

[soulster]

One of the things that has held back ARETHA FRANKLIN's international career is that she doesn't seem to like to fly. I don't recall her appearing "live" in Britain in the last 40 years, if at all. DIANA ROSS regularly appears over here.



Bingo! She has a serious fear of flying.

[144man]

Aretha did visit Britain at least once during the 60s. I saw her in London at, I think, the Astoria, Finsbury Park/Rainbow.

[thaperson]

Aretha a "team player"? lol. No ego? Come on.

I'm a huge fan of both women, but let's keep it real. Neither one of them is going to be on a stage with their peers and take a back seat. Diana's AMA appearance with Dionne and Gladys where she talked over Gladys' part on "That's What Friends are for" or Aretha taking control of the finale of "Divas Live '98 come to mind.

And as much as I love her recordings, Aretha does not have a stellar record of live performances. She's notorious for cancelling gigs, or phoning it in when she does show up. Although in her favor, she has apparently been bringing it the last seven, eight years.

[soulster]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIAA_certification

Aretha Franklin racked up 15 Gold singles as of January 2011.

Of all the charts, Diana Ross, nor do the Supremes, show up anywhere. This could be because Motown did not certify recorded works. Still...

[marv2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIAA_certification

Aretha Franklin racked up 15 Gold singles as of January 2011.

Of all the charts, Diana Ross, nor do the Supremes, show up anywhere. This could be because Motown did not certify recorded works. Still...


Verification is important. Thank you Soulster!

[marv2]

Aretha Franklin ranks #3 on the List of Best Charting Music Artists in the U.S. Diana Ross ranks #48 :



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-charting_music_artists_in_the_U.S.

[captainjames]

Its a good thing that everything happen as planned if not we would probably have never got The Supremes if Aretha had signed with Motown. Remember Berry had Mary Wells and he was happy making her a Superstar until she left.

[soulster]

Verification is important. Thank you Soulster!

More specifically, Motown was not a member of the RIAA.

[marv2]

More specifically, Motown was not a member of the RIAA.

So does that mean when folks, especially here start throwing around Motown's sales figures that it is mostly speculation or rather wishful thinking?

[soulster]

So does that mean when folks, especially here start throwing around Motown's sales figures that it is mostly speculation or rather wishful thinking?

If the sales figures aren't accurate. Problem is, until Soundscan was implemented in the early 90s, facts and figures were all over the place.

[jack020]

I was talking worldwide salesfigures, not USA alone!

[Jimi LaLumia]

Soundscan became a scam as well; I know, I owned a Billboard reporting store

[soulster]

Soundscan became a scam as well; I know, I owned a Billboard reporting store

Oh yes! They can easily be cheated too.

[macuncle]

From my understanding and being there back in the day, it was the other way around, Jimi. Gordy wanted Aretha worse than a hog wanted his slop! But Aretha didn't like the terms he had in his contract. It equated down to artist royalties. Now when she went over to Columbia Records, the contract had built-in "perks" that made Gordy's concessions very small. But Atlantic Records, under Jerry Wexler, gave Aretha a piano and said "GO" and we all know what happened after that.

[jobeterob]

Just as a matter of chart interest, Aretha Franklin is listed #16 amongst album artists; if you combine Diana Ross's numbers with the Supremes, Diana Ross comes in at #4 behind Elvis Presley, Frank Sinatra, and The Beatles. On the singles chart, if you combine Diana Ross and the Supremes, she comes in at #2, behind the Beatles. Aretha is #8 amongst singles artists.

In the bio before her chart listings in Joel Whitburn's singles book, it says "Diana would rank within the Top 5 artists of the Rock Era if her solo and Supremes hits are combined."

This is not to take anything away from Aretha, the Supremes or Diana; all 3 entities have a storied history and enjoy special niches in the history or rock and soul.

[marv2]

Nope! Can't do that legitimately........they were two separate acts! Now if the Supremes had ended when Diane left to begin a solo career, then maybe you'd have a leg to stand on. If you are going to give Diane credit for the work The Supremes did as a group, then you have to give the same credit to Florence Ballard AND Mary Wilson which we know you are not too thrilled in doing that. By your logic Florence has 10 or so number ones and Mary has 12 or 13 number ones. Which is it?