Diana and the "Diana" [[1980) album

[thaperson]

What is her opinion on the album? I know she said the lyrics were perfect for her at the time, but I get the feeling that she didn't care for the finished outcome. I know in the liner notes for the Deluxe edition, it was said that she was worried about how the public would take to it, but they did.

It's the biggest solo selling album of her career. Yet she's never delved into the album the way she has with "The Boss", "Lady". I don't think she's ever performed anything other than "Upside Down" or "Im Coming Out" in her shows, which is a shame, because there's some good material on there.

"Friend to Friend" would be perfect for her to do now. Her lower register has a richness to it that was missing on the original recording [[and I love the original)

[stephanie]

I am probably in the minority here but I never thought that this album should be Diana Ross's biggest selling album. I am a die hard so I think that honor should go to an album like Surrender. Even though she has an excellent output of material I have never considered Diana Ross [[with the exception of the Supremes) to be an album artist I have thought of her as more of a singles artist. I would rather listen to her albums with the Supremes or Surrender, Touch Me in the Morning I cant listen to that whole album. My Old Piano is the ONE song I can listen to over and over. Had it not been for the Rogers and Edwards production style which worked well for Sister Sledge and whose album I could listen to more than Diana that album lyrically would have tanked. I will give Ross credit I think her vocals save these trite songs named Upside Down and Im Coming Out. Her persona have sold these songs more than her vocal talent and I think she knows this. The gay community also pushed the sales on this album as well as the club community. Most of the people I know who bought this album were club animals or die hard Ross fans and like Ring My Bell by Anita Ward it got played so much it stuck in everyones head and moved up the charts especially since the Chic sound was popular at this time. Again I am probably in the minority here but I didnt even buy this album although I know all of the songs on it I am just not a big fan of the material.

[reese]

It seemed there was some confusion when the album came out. I think it was released, and a month went by before a single came out. Diana appeared on a Bob Hope special. The set behind her was multiple copies of the "Diana" album. And although she mentioned she had a new album out, she didn't perform anything from it.

She came to Providence, RI in September of 1980. I didn't attend the show, but I still have the review. It listed most of the songs that she performed, and the show was basicially the same as the HBO special from the previous year. She was still performing many songs from THE BOSS album, only adding UPSIDE DOWN and I'M COMING OUT to her performance. Rather strange, considering the album was an out and out smash by that time.

She might feel like me: happy that the album was a success, but not knocked out by the material. To me, after the great vocals on THE BOSS, I felt that "diana" was a letdown. Not that there weren't some good songs on it. I particularly liked TENDERNESS, GIVE UP, and NOW THAT YOU'RE GONE. I would have loved to hear any of those live. Of course, Diana might also have been pre-occupied with her upcoming departure from Motown, and didn't have time to rehearse the new material for live performance.

[stephanie]

I agree with your synopsis Reese! In the back of my mind I have always felt that the boss was a much more superior album in terms of content and Rossness if you will. I thought the cover was much more attractive as well. Like I said I think the Chic sound was the in thing then and having Ross's name attached to it and the massive promotion it got didnt hurt. I remember seeing this album in windows in all of the record stores Motown must have put a lot of money behind it because it was on the radio ALL of the time. Again Motown knew the Chic sound was hot.

[westgrandboulevard]

stephanie

The operative word you've used there is 'hot'.

A lot of people among the general public seem to gravitate to whatever single or album is selling well and/or number one seller, or is being heavily promoted.

They buy the product based on only half an interest, and maybe that's all they ever ultimately give it.

I could never see the musical value in much of 'Supremes A Go Go' album, which seemed to be just an advertisement to promote The Supremes, but that's just my own opinion. I understand it sold very well indeed!

[stephanie]

Westgrand I think More Hits and Supremes Sing HDH were much better than A Go Go and I agree. I would take A Go Go over the I Hear A Symphony album though the productions are muffled and to me its just a Ross solo fest with the eception of Hes All I got, I Hear a Symphony and Unchained Melody.
Steph

[soulster]

I don't know how DR thinks about the album, but it could very well be that it was so popular because it jammed! it was funky in all the right ways, and wasn't weighed down with a bunch of her ballads. Most importantly, it was the Chic sound, which, in 1980, was still quite popular.

My favorite tracks are:
Upside Down
Tenderness
I'm Coming Out
My Old Piano

[Jimi LaLumia]

Track for track,and vocal performance wise, I Hear A Symphony is the best Supremes album ever!

[stephanie]

1."Stranger in Paradise" [[Alexander Borodin, Robert C. Wright, George Forrest) – 3:03 Rossfest
2."Yesterday" [[John Lennon, Paul McCartney) – 2:28 - Why?
3."I Hear a Symphony" [[Holland–Dozier–Holland) – 2:41 - I have heard it better on other compilations
4."Unchained Melody" [[Alex North, Hy Zaret) – 3:47 - Nice vocals but not brought up front enough on the backgrounds
5."With a Song in My Heart" [[Richard Rodgers, Lorenz Hart) – 2:02 - Rossfest not enough background vocals
6."Without a Song" [[Vincent Youmans, Edward Eliscu, Billy Rose) – 2:59 - Rossfest
[edit] Side two1."My World Is Empty Without You" [[Holland–Dozier–Holland) – 2:33 - I have heard it better on other compilations
2."A Lover's Concerto" [[Sandy Linzer and Denny Randell) – 2:35 - The Toys version is more Motown than this one Ross has had too many elocution lessons
3."Any Girl in Love [[Knows What I'm Going Through)" [[Holland–Dozier–Holland) – 2:59 - Winner!
4."Wonderful! Wonderful!" [[Sherman Edwards, Donald Meyer, Ben Raleigh) – 2:51 - I like this better live
5."Everything is Good About You" [[James Dean, Eddie Holland) – 2:59 - Much better on other compilations like the Supremes Greatest hits and when its amplified
6."He's All I Got" [[Holland–Dozier–Holland, Dean) – 2:46 - winner!
[edit] Credits

[uptight]

I saw Ross at Pine Knob, MI in 1980 when I was a kid. Like Reese said, she was still performing pretty much the same act as on her HBO TV special. I had bought the diana album, but during the concert I attended, it was either downplayed or not mentioned at all. I really don't remember if "Upside Down" was written into the show yet. She may have closed the show with one of the tunes, but I don't remember.

Regarding the album: With that long, awkward marching drum intro to "I'm Coming Out," I was not a big fan of that tune. I remember wondering, "Ok, now when does the actual song start...?" Even "Upside Down" sounded clunky to me. When I mentioned this on SDF a few years, Bobby Eli said they may have played a written drum chart "upside-down." Eli may have been joking, but it does have that topsy turvey feel to it LOL. Only in recent years did I appreciate Tony Thompson's powerful skills as a drummer, and he passed away soon afterward.

I began to enjoy "I'm Coming Out" when Ross used it for her exciting stage entrances. And "Upside Down" grew on me after a few months or so.

I much preferred "Have Fun [[Again)," and "Tenderness." The album was kind of short -- like an EP. But I guess if she was unsure about the concept, then keeping it short and simple was the best route.

The album later released in its deluxe and expanded editions both sound horrible. The 1999 version was loud and distorted, while the "deluxe edition" lacked bass and treble). The only CD where the hit songs sound awesome is All The Great Hits, the one with the sketch of her on the beige cover.

[Jimi LaLumia]

she was still following the 'supremes game plan';
records for the kids, 'live' shows for the older crowd that didn't stay on top of every new release;
as a solo act, she wasn't exactly drawing rooms filled with the youth crowd,the record buyers

[thaperson]

I didn't realize she was still doing that act up until late 1980. But it would make sense in a way since the HBO special wasn't shown until early 1981, by which time she had started performing in the round in a more straightforward, hits driven show.

There have been clips of her from the Bob Hope show on Youtube at various times, and someone who had been in the audience once posted on one that she also peformed "I'm Coming Out" that day in the orange dress, but it never aired.

It was one of her biggest commercial peaks, and she was largely absent from the public eye, save the television special almost a year after the albums release. How many artists could sell millions of copies and get away with that nowadays?

[Glenpwood]

Diana was a bold statement for it's time that the critics ate up but frankly it's one of her duller efforts when compared to her entire catalog. The lyrics couldve been written by five year old Chudney and dont get me started on The Muppets background vocal arrangement on Have Fun Again. One of Dianas gifts as a vocalist is the emotion she puts into even the most banal lyrics but theres not much to work with here. Thank God The whole project got the Terrana touch applied to it because she was really buried in the original Chic mixes and those never would've got as high up the chart as the revised versions did. That being said I enjoy the LP but it hasn't aged well with me compared to the A&S helmed albums, TMITM, or Baby It's Me.....

[soulster]

The "diana" album is the strongest, most interesting album in her catalog. It was also the first DR album I ever owned. If it had not been for being produced by Bernard Edwards and Nile Rodgers, I never would have given it the time of day.

One thing, though: if the album had been issued with the original Bob Clearmountain mix, would it have been just as successful? We have been biased by the Russ Terrana mix now, but what if he never mixed it. Then what?

[jobeterob]

Without the Diana and Russ remixing..........the album would not have been anywhere near as successful. I was not impressed at all by the Chic mixes........buried, muffled, unclear. Berry would never have approved.

I thought there were other huge radio hits on that album.......namely Give Up. But Diana had so much going all at once, they couldn't milk it all. Upside Down jumped 49 to 10 in one week, when such jumps were unheard of on Billboard. She had 3 songs in the Pop Top 10 at once. She was committed to It's My Turn. And then Endless Love came out.

It was definitely the peak.

[reese]

I didn't realize she was still doing that act up until late 1980. But it would make sense in a way since the HBO special wasn't shown until early 1981, by which time she had started performing in the round in a more straightforward, hits driven show.

There have been clips of her from the Bob Hope show on Youtube at various times, and someone who had been in the audience once posted on one that she also peformed "I'm Coming Out" that day in the orange dress, but it never aired.

It was one of her biggest commercial peaks, and she was largely absent from the public eye, save the television special almost a year after the albums release. How many artists could sell millions of copies and get away with that nowadays?

The HBO special originally aired in late 1979 or early 1980. That's how I knew the song lineup was similar to that of the September 1980 concert that I wrote of earlier in this thread.

I remember staying up very late to listen to the FM simulcast of the HBO special, as I didn't have cable at the time. I recorded the show on an eight-track tape. When "diana" was released not long after, I used a few songs from it to fill out the tape.

[soulster]

Without the Diana and Russ remixing..........the album would not have been anywhere near as successful. I was not impressed at all by the Chic mixes........buried, muffled, unclear. Berry would never have approved.

But, how could we know that if wouldn't have been as successful. That was my point. We can never know. And, as I recall it, Barry gave her the freedom to do the project, as at the time they were looking for something that would get her back to the top of the charts, and DR was looking for something different.

[thaperson]

The HBO special originally aired in late 1979 or early 1980. That's how I knew the song lineup was similar to that of the September 1980 concert that I wrote of earlier in this thread.

I remember staying up very late to listen to the FM simulcast of the HBO special, as I didn't have cable at the time. I recorded the show on an eight-track tape. When "diana" was released not long after, I used a few songs from it to fill out the tape.

You're right. I confused it with the CBS Special.

[luke]

And dont forget the power Im Comng Out had for the gay community. And as we know she was not pleased with the initial production of the album which may have tainted her wanting to do things from it.

[florence]

One of things you can only speculate as to whether it would have been as big if not re-mixed. You can just never tell how the public is going to react.

But although it's not one of my fav albums I was just so happy to see Diana back where she belonged - at the top of the charts.

Strangely although it had two top 5 hits in Upside Down and My Old Piano plus I'm Coming Out which went top 15 but sold well as it was over the Christmas period the album only made #12 in the UK and stopped short of Platinum.

Upside Down was so unlucky not to make #1 - it was passed just at the end of the week by Abba's The Winner Takes It All on the Official UK chart. There were a number of other charts compiled at the time but their cut-off time was earlier in the week [[Wednesday/Thursday) and UD was #1 in all of them.

[smark21]

Florence, do you like music as music, or is your interest in music limited to commerce related issues?

[lakedistrictlad1]

I discovered Diana for the first time when 'Upside Down' was in the U.K charts. It was not only the first single of hers I bought - but the first Motown record I ever bought. It was that that tipped me off to the world of Motown. [[Somewhat oddly perhaps - the second Motown record I ever bought was the Supremes Live at London's Talk of the Town) So the 'Diana' album holds a very special place in my heart. Banal the lyrics may be - but the tunes are infectiously catchy. I just can't believe it is so many years ago!
p.s I also remember that while 'Diana' was number 1 in the album charts, Babs Streisand was at No.2 with 'Guilty'. My 2 favourite divas back to back at the top of the charts. I doubt I will ever see that again!!

[smark21]

I like the Diana album--it's a good album to play for a party, or working out, or cleaning, but for serious sit down listening? Perhaps for the music, but certainly not for the lyrics. I can see why, other than the hits, Diana doesn't draw upon this album for her live shows. The songs on The Boss have more to offer for a singer who wants to explore lyrics in performance.

[uptight]

While conducting research on unrelated matters, I came across the dates Ms. Ross performed at Pine Knob in MI. While the album was released in May 1980, I saw her perform at the end of July, 1980. She had to have at least performed "Upside Down" in her act by then, but I really don't remember it. When I returned to school in September, a friend asked me if she performed any of these new songs. I don't remember what my answer was. LOL

[captainjames]

All I will say is I loved this album and the cover and the inside picture. The Jeans, wet hair and no weave was a winner for me. This was Diana at her best and on her way leaving Motown. This is the only album that I played so much that I ended up buying 3 copies finally. "Friend to Friend" I felt she recorded only for me........lol. When I heard "Have Fun Again" fade and then come back in I thought how wonderful. I remember the songs on this set seemed so short so I was constantely playing over and over.

[jobeterob]

Most of these songs are not amongst my favorite Diana songs, except for Give Up.

But there is a section of Upside Down where Diana takes the song and makes it hers and makes the song move with her ~ not her with the music. And you couldn't stay still during that part of the song.

[Sugarchilehoneybaby]

Wow! I guess I'm in the minority here when I say I think "diana" was probably the most polished, commercial, and trend-setting album she ever did! I think it's a shame she never did an immediate follow-up with Nile and 'Nard, because it's clear with 20/20 hindsight that Diana + CHIC had hit upon a distinct formula that would be much-emulated, especially in the works of Jam & Lewis with Janet Jackson, and later, Ciara: a pretty voice with lots of personality riding the groove. Not taking a backseat, mind you, but literally the perfect marriage of female voice and the beat. A lot of the disco divas in the late 70s were still following the Aretha school, and thereby the voice was competing with the groove. I think "diana" paved the way for a future sound in R&B.

[Motown4Ever518]

I agree with the fact that it was/is her most polished, commercial, and trend-setting album. Having just read the new Nile Rodgers book, [[A Must Read!), as well as a recent history of Chic, [[Another Must Read!) , it appears that there was never going to be Nile/'Nard part two. Too Bad, because this is one of the 100 CD's that I would take with me to a deserted island. What blows me away is that I admit to loving the Chic sound, and Nile please don't take it personal if you are reading this, but the released version was far superior to the Chic Mix. In other words the project would not have been as successful if the original mix was released. And the opposition to the original Mix by BG, Ms. Ross among others was truly justified. In popular music, it's about the sales, art notwithstanding, the first two singles appear to have turned off Ross fans, and people who have been buying Ms. Ross albums for years as a solo artist as well as singing with the Supremes. Had they played the rest of the Album, Friend to Friend was almost worth buying the album on it's own. The majority of the consumers of this disc, may not have purchased much Diana before or since, it was aimed at a younger crowd. Which ties into your point about moving into the age of the producer and his or her sound, the best example being Jam & Lewis with Janet Jackson.

[soulster]

Sometimes the artist/writers/producers can be too close to the project to be objective about their work. I believe that this is a classic case of that. I also believe that at the time Nile & Nard could not see [[hear) that they were a bit too forceful with their production style and sound. Everything they touched up to that point sounded like it could of been on a Chic album.

[redlabs]

i liked this album alot,although not at first,but over a few months after its oroiginal release it grew on me.love MY OLD PIANO,GIVE UP,FRIEND TO FRIEND,TENDERNESS

[Sugarchilehoneybaby]

What I don't understand is why Motown stopped after just 2 singles [[in America) with this blockbuster album? Granted, "It's My Turn" was riding the charts by then, but it climbed the charts almost concurrently with I'm Coming Out. 'diana' stayed in the Top 40 until the 1st week of March 1981! It didn't even die down after the first 2 hits, so why not release at the very least, a third single? It intrigues me that there still lies in the vaults a 12" remix of Tenderness. This implies that Motown tinkered with the idea of a 3rd domestic single from the LP.

If I were BG, I would have saved the 3 new Michael Masser tracks and perhaps done an "Endless Love" album, comprised of the 2 Richie duets, the 3 new Masser tracks plus It's My Turn, and a couple of unreleased ballads -- and BAM! That could have been a final hit album for Diana at Motown. As much as I adore To Love Again, I think the timing of it was bad, and really, did we need yet one more compilation featuring TMITM and Mahogany??

I would have tried to milk 2 more hits off 'diana'.

Question for you guys: if it had been up to you, what would you have released next if you could have squeezed 2 more singles between It's My Turn and Endless Love? My picks [[for the USA) would have been Tenderness [[remixed), and Now That You're Gone. :)

[jobeterob]

One would have been Give Up.

Perhaps Now That Your Gone.

[rovereab]

Give Up backed with Now That You're Gone would have been a very powerful A and B side.

[jobeterob]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsT9REUKosg

[Hotspurman]

This album is still my favourite Diana Ross album. I interviewed her for Blues & Soul when it was released in the UK, and whilst the rest of the national media were interested in her burgeoning relationship with Gene Simmons of Kiss, I was more interested in why she had felt a need to remix the album. Bear in mind, at the time Diana's album came out, Chic were the hottest writing and production team around, not only on their own recordings but also on Sister Sledge and Norma Jean. I think Upside Down is her greatest track, although not for her singing but for the guitar work - absolute magic. Anyway, she told me she felt the original mix was a bit too much Chic and not enough Diana Ross, so they did a remix that switched the balance around. I've not yet fully played the deluxe edition with the original mixes, but will probably do so over the next week or so.

[redlabs]

i thought that MY OLD PIANO was a third single.? i remember buying the 45 back then and TENDERNESS was getting some airplay here in Baltimore. i did like GIVE UP ,that would be my other choice after PIANO

[reese]

i thought that MY OLD PIANO was a third single.? i remember buying the 45 back then and TENDERNESS was getting some airplay here in Baltimore. i did like GIVE UP ,that would be my other choice after PIANO

MY OLD PIANO was a single, and a very big hit in the UK. In America, it wasn't released as a single until Diana left Motown.

[soulster]

MY OLD PIANO was a single, and a very big hit in the UK. In America, it wasn't released as a single until Diana left Motown.

If if it was issued as a single in the U.S., it didn't chart in the Hot 100 at all. By the time a third single from that album could be issued, Motown had already moved on to "It's My Turn".

[skooldem1]

It seemed to me that back then, I'd say prior to "off the Wall" and "Thriller" that many record companies only released a single and then a follow up. Motown was always a little late with some changes in the industry. But I agree that many more singles should have been released. So many great songs. I would have released "Have fun again".

[reese]

If if it was issued as a single in the U.S., it didn't chart in the Hot 100 at all. By the time a third single from that album could be issued, Motown had already moved on to "It's My Turn".

According to the latest Taraborrellli Diana bio, it charted in the US at #109. So I guess it just "Bubbled Under".

It probably wasn't even promoted. By the time it was released in the US, Diana already had WHY DO FOOLS FALL IN LOVE out. Motown probably just released it hoping to get some quick interest since it had been a big hit in England the year before. Also, it might have brought some attention to the ALL THE GREAT HITS album, the cover of which was shown on the picture sleeve.

[soulster]

My next pick would have been either an edited version of "Tenderness" or "Now That You're Gone".


It seemed to me that back then, I'd say prior to "off the Wall" and "Thriller" that many record companies only released a single and then a follow up.

Skooldem, record companies have been issuing more than two singles from albums from at least 1975. Here are a few:

Ohio Players - "Honey": 1) Sweet Sticky Thing 2) Love Rollercoaster 3) Fopp

Fleetwood Mac - "Rumours": 1) Go Your Own Way 2) Dreams 3) Don't Stop 4) You Make Loving Fun

Boz Scaggs - "Silk Degrees": 1) It's Over 2) Lowdown 3) What Can I Say 4) Lido Shuffle

Diana Ross - S/T [[1975): 1) Theme From Mahogany [[Do You Know Where You're Going To) 2) I Thought It Took A Little Time 3) Love Hangover 4) One Love In My Lifetime

Bee Gees - "Main Course" 1) Jive Talkin' 2) Nights On Broadway 3) Fanny [[Be Tender With My Love)

Rufus Featuring Chaka Khan - "S/T" 1) Sweet Thing 2) Dance Wit Me 3) Jive Talkin'

[jobeterob]

I believe Reese is right............that My Old Piano was eventually released in the USA, but way late in the day and probably without promotion because she was already gone from Motown. I don't recall ever seeing a Billboard ad for it.

[soulster]

Yup. It Bubbled Under at #109 on Billboard. Too bad. It was a fine pick for a single.

[jobeterob]

They should have released it at the same time as It's My Turn.......flooded the market. It would have been a hit because everything she released then was a hit. And she was close to the stage that Beyonce has been at for a while...........out there so much that everyone finally gets a little bit tired of you for a while, no matter how good you are.

[soulster]

They should have released it at the same time as It's My Turn.......flooded the market. It would have been a hit because everything she released then was a hit. And she was close to the stage that Beyonce has been at for a while...........out there so much that everyone finally gets a little bit tired of you for a while, no matter how good you are.

No record company is going to issue two singles by the same artist simultaneously. They only seem to know how to promote one at a time. Not only that, from what I have read, the Motown people were never too happy with that album. To themj, it just wasn't Diana Ross, and they didn't really know how to market it. It's just fortunate that it took off anyway. I believe Motown's over-controlling philosophy, their micro-management, what worked for them in the 60s, failed them in the 80s.

[Jimi LaLumia]

My next pick would have been either an edited version of "Tenderness" or "Now That You're Gone".



Skooldem, record companies have been issuing more than two singles from albums from at least 1975. Here are a few:

Ohio Players - "Honey": 1) Sweet Sticky Thing 2) Love Rollercoaster 3) Fopp

Fleetwood Mac - "Rumours": 1) Go Your Own Way 2) Dreams 3) Don't Stop 4) You Make Loving Fun

Boz Scaggs - "Silk Degrees": 1) It's Over 2) Lowdown 3) What Can I Say 4) Lido Shuffle

Diana Ross - S/T [[1975): 1) Theme From Mahogany [[Do You Know Where You're Going To) 2) I Thought It Took A Little Time 3) Love Hangover 4) One Love In My Lifetime

Bee Gees - "Main Course" 1) Jive Talkin' 2) Nights On Broadway 3) Fanny [[Be Tender With My Love)

Rufus Featuring Chaka Khan - "S/T" 1) Sweet Thing 2) Dance Wit Me 3) Jive Talkin'
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Supremes-"Where Did our Love Go"-1) When The Lovelight Starts...2)Where Did Our love Go3)Baby Love4) Come see About Me

[soulster]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Supremes-"Where Did our Love Go"-1) When The Lovelight Starts...2)Where Did Our love Go3)Baby Love4) Come see About Me

Ummm...no. The album was issued after some of those singles were.

[Jimi LaLumia]

there were no specific rules stated..and the end result is the same, or there would have been a "Baby Love" album..

[redlabs]

i agree JIMI! great albu it was .

[Sugarchilehoneybaby]

According to the latest Taraborrellli Diana bio, it charted in the US at #109. So I guess it just "Bubbled Under".

It probably wasn't even promoted. By the time it was released in the US, Diana already had WHY DO FOOLS FALL IN LOVE out. Motown probably just released it hoping to get some quick interest since it had been a big hit in England the year before. Also, it might have brought some attention to the ALL THE GREAT HITS album, the cover of which was shown on the picture sleeve.

I bubbled under at #109 for two weeks, 1/16/82 and 1/23/82. 'Mirror Mirror' hit the Hot 100 on 1/9/82, so considering the hotness of that single, MOP didn't stand much of a chance. But lots of people do remember hearing the song on the radio!

[Sugarchilehoneybaby]

If if it was issued as a single in the U.S., it didn't chart in the Hot 100 at all. By the time a third single from that album could be issued, Motown had already moved on to "It's My Turn".

But they DID still had time to release a third single, which was why I posed the question. They could have resumed 'diana' singles after "It's My Turn", because the 'diana' LP outlasted that song.

Great choices, guys! I confess that "Give Up" is another choice for me, though I think it was used as the flip to "I'm Coming Out", so I mentally disqualified it.

'Have Fun [[Again)' is very commercial too!
*****************
NEW Question: Do you guys think that when Diana's contract came up for renewal in November 1980, and she didn't immediately re-sign, that Berry stopped promoting 'diana' so as to downplay her commercial upswing? In other words, did he not want to make her appear 'too' successful to his competitors who were now wooing his star?

[soulster]

there were no specific rules stated..and the end result is the same, or there would have been a "Baby Love" album..

My post was in response to Jimi's post about how he believed the practice of issuing more than two singles per album didn't start until Michael Jackson's "Off The Wall" or "Thriller", which was starting in 1979. I pointed out that the practice reached as far back as at least 1975. The trick is that the songs had to have been pulled off the album after it's release. I think you just found an opportunity to turn this into another Supremes thread.

[soulster]

All in all, "My Old Piano" has been recognized as a hit, single, deep cut, or otherwise. I believe it has shown up on at least one of her "best of" CDs.

[thisoldheart]

think the reason "diana" was so popular was because almost all of her other albums were a mash up of different writers and producers, and all most deffinately geared to her las vegas middle of the road audience while she was better known previously [[with the supremes) as a pop/ rock/ light r&b singer. when she hooked up with bernard & edwards she was more in touch with her hit radio sound. while the album is deffinately not a motown sound album, it appealed to contempory tastes as she once did. chic never had good lyrics, but luckily the chic sound was all about syncopation. the vocal was equal to the lead guitar and bass that rodgers and edwards provided. so the lyrics were not as important as they were with other writer/producers. personally i would not have screwed around with the original mix. bernard & edwards were at the top of their game. but, luckily ross's sharp diction worked well with both mixes. ms. ross has always needed strong writing and producing and therefore always did her best work with h/d/h, ashford & simpson, and the chic organization. she is adrift without strong outside direction.

[soulster]

I think it's simpler than that. I think it's because her previous albums before "diana" were overwrought with sappy, boring ballads, and "diana" had some funk.

[thisoldheart]

so very true, soulster! that's what i was trying to say in a diplomatic way, with a few reasons thrown in for good measure!

[soulster]

The only exceptions were "The Boss" and "Baby, It's Me".

[skooldem1]

Don't all singers need strong writing and producing? You think she always needs "outside" direction? She made the call to have the album remixed. Excellent decision by Diana- to not only seek out the CHIC organization, but to have it sound the way she wanted it to sound. This woman knows what she wants. Whether those decisions result in commercial success is secondary to her personal satisfaction with her product. I read recently on some blog/website where some musician who was working with Diana said that they were amazed at just how much she knows about what she likes and what she doesn't. They said her "ear" for music was excellent.

[soulster]

Just another reason she left Motown.

[jobeterob]

Did My Old Piano make it onto All The Great Hits?

[soulster]

Yup. Sure did.

[thisoldheart]

Don't all singers need strong writing and producing? You think she always needs "outside" direction? She made the call to have the album remixed. Excellent decision by Diana- to not only seek out the CHIC organization, but to have it sound the way she wanted it to sound. This woman knows what she wants. Whether those decisions result in commercial success is secondary to her personal satisfaction with her product. I read recently on some blog/website where some musician who was working with Diana said that they were amazed at just how much she knows about what she likes and what she doesn't. They said her "ear" for music was excellent.
i certainly don't think ms. ross "has a good ear". her career post h/d/h both with the supremes and as a solo artist is certainly more miss than hit! i do, however, think she is a very good singer and certainly an entertainer of particular note. since her first hit records it has always been almost impossible not to watch her. she has charisma. her taste in what she should be singing needs a very strong producer.

[skooldem1]

There were referring to her knowldege of "music" and how it should sound- in a live band setting.

[Sugarchilehoneybaby]

i certainly don't think ms. ross "has a good ear". her career post h/d/h both with the supremes and as a solo artist is certainly more miss than hit! i do, however, think she is a very good singer and certainly an entertainer of particular note. since her first hit records it has always been almost impossible not to watch her. she has charisma. her taste in what she should be singing needs a very strong producer.

More miss than hit? Let's be realistic. Until 1987, she'd only had FOUR singles miss the Hot 100 in her solo career. And she racked up the most #1's for a female SOLO artist, apart from The Supremes, that lasted until 1988 [[whitney).

The only serious misstep I think she made regarding an album in the 80s was with 'Eaten Alive'. If anything, THAT album was in dire need of a remix! She actually should have recut her leads, ditched Barry Gibb's backing vocals, and brought in The Waters to do new backing vox. Oh, and remixed the whole album....AND....left off the dreadful title cut....which would have necessited renaming the album itself!

If that sounds like I hate Eaten Alive [[the LP), I don't. I actually think the other 9 songs were real gems. The Gibb Bros always bring the songs! But the production lacks the warmth and beauty of Streisand's "Guilty" album. The songs deserved better.

[Sugarchilehoneybaby]

No record company is going to issue two singles by the same artist simultaneously. They only seem to know how to promote one at a time. Not only that, from what I have read, the Motown people were never too happy with that album. To themj, it just wasn't Diana Ross, and they didn't really know how to market it. It's just fortunate that it took off anyway. I believe Motown's over-controlling philosophy, their micro-management, what worked for them in the 60s, failed them in the 80s.

Releasing two singles at the same time worked for Linda Ronstadt:
15. BLUE BAYOU
Date: 9/10/1977 - Run: 84-74-64-51-40-36-32-21-16-11- 9-8-5-4-*3*-3-3- [[17 wsf)
07/01/1978: 3-13-26-41-56-98 [[23/8 wks) UK:#35/4

16. IT'S SO EASY
Date: 10/8/1977 - Run: 77-65-49-34-29-22-16- 10-9-*5*-5-5-5-15-30-57-59-97 [[18/6 wks)

[jobeterob]

Did she not have 3 singles charting for a while? Upside Down, I'm Coming and It's My Turn or was one of them Endless Love? As I recall she was Billboards #1 artist overall in 1980.

[marv2]

I am curious to know how many people in 1980 were discussing who the #1 artist overall was in 1948, 32 years earlier........

[soulster]

Releasing two singles at the same time worked for Linda Ronstadt:
15. BLUE BAYOU
Date: 9/10/1977 - Run: 84-74-64-51-40-36-32-21-16-11- 9-8-5-4-*3*-3-3- [[17 wsf)
07/01/1978: 3-13-26-41-56-98 [[23/8 wks) UK:#35/4

16. IT'S SO EASY
Date: 10/8/1977 - Run: 77-65-49-34-29-22-16- 10-9-*5*-5-5-5-15-30-57-59-97 [[18/6 wks)

You got me! :)

[RossHolloway]

I just loaded this cd and The Boss into my car this past week. The thing that really stood out is that both these albums are good because of their cohesiveness. Both albums can be played from start to finish without skipping any tracks.

[thisoldheart]

More miss than hit? Let's be realistic. Until 1987, she'd only had FOUR singles miss the Hot 100 in her solo career. And she racked up the most #1's for a female SOLO artist, apart from The Supremes, that lasted until 1988 [[whitney).

The only serious misstep I think she made regarding an album in the 80s was with 'Eaten Alive'. If anything, THAT album was in dire need of a remix! She actually should have recut her leads, ditched Barry Gibb's backing vocals, and brought in The Waters to do new backing vox. Oh, and remixed the whole album....AND....left off the dreadful title cut....which would have necessited renaming the album itself!

If that sounds like I hate Eaten Alive [[the LP), I don't. I actually think the other 9 songs were real gems. The Gibb Bros always bring the songs! But the production lacks the warmth and beauty of Streisand's "Guilty" album. The songs deserved better.
whenever i write i never take into consideration chart positions of records, record sales, or awards when considering the strength of a song or album. if i were to do that, for example, i would not be able to include two excellent supremes songs "love is like an itchin' in my heart", or "forever came today", but would have to include "endless love". charts, sales, and awards are marketing ploys to make an uninformed and lazy public buy usually inferior products. if one truly loves motown music it is impossible not to make a lengthy list of songs that never charted.

art and commerce are two usually opposing forces!

[[and please let's not start a discussion with the name whitney houston, other than to note her singular destruction of the popular ballad. there was an era prior to ms. houston when listening to a ballad was quite wonderful. since ms. houston almost every ballad must be song with such histrionics that a listener feels beaten up before the one minute mark. remember there were once subtle singers like motown's silky smooth brenda holloway. by the way, ms. houston sold records, topped charts, and won awards. ms. holloway did not!)

[jobeterob]

Chart positions never influence what you like or don't like.

But for music history, they are definitive other than in our heads.

Music history has to take into account Whitney Houston and Diana Ross. But I had to laugh at the line "her singular destruction of the popular ballad"........lol; wasn't it just the times that did that? There was a moment where the screaming and yelling at the end of the ballad were the be all and the end all of a song. Fortunately, that time seems to be completely gone again.

Whitney's voice might be gone but her position in music history is sealed.

[Hotspurman]

This probably isn't the best time to mention that I quite like Whitney and Mariah.... Although I have an unhealthy interest in the charts and sales figures and awards, it does not dictate what I like or dislike. I've now got 33,000 tracks on my ipod, and I reckon 30,000 never charted anywhere. Take GQ who hit with Disco Nights [[Rock Freak) - great track, but listen to their earlier incarnation Rhythm Makers and the album Funk Grooves. Or The Notations, Eddie Russ, Randy Brown, Donny Hathaway etc etc etc.

[thisoldheart]

Chart positions never influence what you like or don't like. But for music history, they are definitive other than in our heads.
chart possitions only define possible record sales, and perhaps the number of times a record may have been played. even those numbers are often desputable. tell me please what this has to do with the intrinsic quality of music? ... and isn't that what loving music is about?

that is where intelligent criticism comes in.

[smark21]

chart possitions only define possible record sales, and perhaps the number of times a record may have been played. even those numbers are often desputable. tell me please what this has to do with the intrinsic quality of music? ... and isn't that what loving music is about?

that is where intelligent criticism comes in.

Exactly. All sales have to do with one's place in music history is that it has to with one's place in the history of the music business, which is different from the history of music as an art form. If I recall my classical music history, Beethoven had a lot of difficulty getting commissions for his symphonies, yet his music survived the test of time while the work of the most populuar composers of his time are now forgotten. I suspect Whitney Houston and her music will be forgotten 200 years from now.

[jobeterob]

Yes, I do agree with those last two posts.

But I would add that without popularity of some significant degree, your artistry can't be appreciated even if it is superior.

[soulster]

This probably isn't the best time to mention that I quite like Whitney and Mariah.... Although I have an unhealthy interest in the charts and sales figures and awards, it does not dictate what I like or dislike. I've now got 33,000 tracks on my ipod, and I reckon 30,000 never charted anywhere. Take GQ who hit with Disco Nights [[Rock Freak) - great track, but listen to their earlier incarnation Rhythm Makers and the album Funk Grooves. Or The Notations, Eddie Russ, Randy Brown, Donny Hathaway etc etc etc.

I do enjoy chart data, but I like what I like, regardless of how well or poor a song did. Chart positions do not influence what my taste in music is, although I did listen to a lot of radio back in the day. Some may say I like top 40 because it was spoon-fed to me, but that's not it. But, unlike most of you guys, I don't get into really obscure stuff. I always felt that those who make it a point to remind everyone of how a certain artist was "better" before they got famous were somehow elitist. I'm not talking about anyone here.

I also like Whitney and Mariah.

[Sugarchilehoneybaby]

I Will Always Love You by Whitney Houston is sublime, I don't care what y'all say :) and...I would have the same opinion if it had peaked at #77.

[Sugarchilehoneybaby]

You got me! :)

;) ......................

[Hotspurman]

I wish a lot of the stuff I like wasn't obscure - it would mean more people were in to them the same way I was. I wasn't in to the Northern Soul scene, not because I doubt I'd have loved the music [[I probably would), but because I was 'down South', where most of the clubs I went to played funk music, a style I particularly liked. If I had got into Northern, I'd more than likely be skint by now, given how obsessive about music I am, having to own all of the things I like. But then again, even the style I was into had its advantages, such as getting into Crown Heights Affair and Kool & The Gang before they went overtly commerical. And there are items from their respective commercial repertoires I like, such as You Gave Me Love and Celebration respectively.

Back to Diana, however, and having finally got around to listening to the delixe edition of 'diana', I can't hear what was wrong with the original Chic mix of the album - despite what Frankie Crocker told her, it would not have ended her career. That's just a Crocker shit.

[soulster]

Well, Frankie Crocker was full of shit!:)

Overall, I also prefer the harder, raw funk jams and hot-buttered soul rather than the slick, smooth Northers-type soul. Sorry Motown, but i'd rather listen to an afternoon of Stax than Motown.

[Sugarchilehoneybaby]

I wish a lot of the stuff I like wasn't obscure - it would mean more people were in to them the same way I was. I wasn't in to the Northern Soul scene, not because I doubt I'd have loved the music [[I probably would), but because I was 'down South', where most of the clubs I went to played funk music, a style I particularly liked. If I had got into Northern, I'd more than likely be skint by now, given how obsessive about music I am, having to own all of the things I like. But then again, even the style I was into had its advantages, such as getting into Crown Heights Affair and Kool & The Gang before they went overtly commerical. And there are items from their respective commercial repertoires I like, such as You Gave Me Love and Celebration respectively.

Back to Diana, however, and having finally got around to listening to the delixe edition of 'diana', I can't hear what was wrong with the original Chic mix of the album - despite what Frankie Crocker told her, it would not have ended her career. That's just a Crocker shit.

Well, some of the vocal takes used on the Chic mixes were VERY different to the released vocal takes - though some were just as good. But specifically, the CHIC version of "My Old Piano" contains - IMO - what may have been the legendary session in which Nile and Nard told Diana that she was singing flat.

What isn't often wondered aloud is whether or not Diana re-recorded some of her vocals for the Terrana mixes. I think she "may" *possibly* have recut a couple of them. Either that, or Terrana red-edited the vocal takes to make comp vocals of each song. IF he did so, in doing that, he was keeping with the Gordy vision of how Diana should sound: crisp diction without much improvisation and riffing. Nile and Nard liked everything "raw" and organic and it sounds like they used complete vocal takes on the songs, rather than comps. I liked hearing some of her more 'raw' vocals on Give Up, Have Fun Again, etc.

It sounds like My Old Piano was pretty radically remixed, and the vocals also sound brighter. And if you listen to both mixes, the released version is sped up. I prefer the released version and can see why it hit hard in Europe, but it is VERY different from the original version, even containing new keyboard elements

I also wonder if Terrana RSO'd the final mix. That was another thing that CHIC would not have done, in keeping with their organic approach to recording. They were so tight that they didn't need it anyway.

[ejluther]

I also wonder if Terrana RSO'd the final mix.
RSO'd? What does that mean?

[Sugarchilehoneybaby]

RSO'd? What does that mean?

I might have used the wrong term, but I believe it was a practice back in the 80s whereby an engineer/mixer/producer would take "live" music, meaning all real instruments, and digitally make it the same pacing throughout the record. Does that make sense? Like, with a band like Chic, recording a take, it may not be as precise tempo-wise as a synthesized recording. Usually those subtle differences in tempo would go unnoticed to the ear.

If what I wrote is incorrect or not quite what I meant, I apologize as I am not a music expert. It's just a term I've heard and had explained to me, so I'm explaining it back second hand, and I might be a bit off.

[soulster]

Are you talking about pitch correction?

[Sugarchilehoneybaby]

Are you talking about pitch correction?
No....I guess I'm not describing what I mean very well....or if there even is such a thing as what I described. LOL! I apologize; I'm not a technician. :)