DRATS Progression

[RanRan79]

Piggybacking off of the conversation about DRATS progression and regression from "Love Child" to "The Composer", here's a question:
so does the group continue with this "heavy" material for the duration of DRATS, or should they have transitioned to less heavy but not any less "adult"? And if so, what did they record in 1969 that fit this transition? Is there anything that other artists recorded during this time that you think would have been a great fit for DRATS as a single?

Obviously "Someday We'll Be Together" was intended for Diana's solo career, but it was the perfect sound for DRATS IMO. But between "Love Child" and "Someday", there's room for four or five singles, what do they fill it with?

[reese]

I don't know if I would have had them continue with the "heavy" material. But I think a sense of maturity could have been explored. They were now seasoned young women, miles away from WHERE DID OUR LOVE GO. There was some material recorded during those last years that I think might have done well if they had been released, if only as album tracks.

Unreleased [at the time] material such as STORMY, SWEET THING, THOSE PRECIOUS MEMORIES, IN THE EVENING OF OUR LOVE, WISH I KNEW, and BELIEVE IN ME could have made the LET THE SUNSHINE IN and CREAM OF THE CROP better instead of the disappointment they are to some fans.

[sup_fan]

yeah i don't think the group should have continued with gloom and doom. they would have needed to mix things up. Look what they did with the Temps duet? that was really the first time to mega-groups had joined together [[pun intended lol). it wasn't heavy but it was certainly powerful and big impact

i think the follow up to Love Child should have been Evening Train. yes it was a heavier piece, more soulful. i think it certainly shared elements with LC but without being a silly copy like Shame.

after that, there would have been room for another 2 or maybe 3 songs before Someday. and i'm keeping the same general timeline, even if one of these songs was a hit.

Wish i knew
you gave me love
discover me
can't you see it's me
you're gonna hear from me
I'm so glad i got somebody

[sup_fan]

on the Diana Ross Project website, the author just gushes about Does Your Mama Know About Me? while it's never been a favorite of mine, i do at least think the production and singing is extremely well done.

the original had only just charted recently, so i get it why motown didn't release the Sups version. but the Vancouver's barely made it into the top 30 and that hardly made a huge impression on the US public. perhaps the Sups version could have worked. the lush backing track is definitely right up their alley.

[Boogiedown]

no I think they should have done something really cutting edge like team up with other Motown super groups

oh wait they did do that ....

[sup_fan]

no I think they should have done something really cutting edge like team up with other Motown super groups

oh wait they did eventually do that ....

haha if people at motown had been actually planning things out properly, they would have held IGMYLM for a month or two and then released it after C9 and LC were through. start 1969 off with this massive hit. it would easily have gone #1 it LC and Grapevine weren't in the way.

then maybe release Evening Train, Why must we fall in love and then You Gave Me Love. and finally Someday

[marybrewster]

DRATS scored big with Love Child and later, to a certain degree, I'm Living In Shame. Both are "message" or "story" songs; both could have been made into a TV movie, much like Ode to Billie Joe or Harper Valley PTA.

What about songs like How Long Has that Evening Train Been Gone? or Does Your Mama Know About Me? Maybe Keep an Eye?

[mowsville]

I think sup-fan has got it spot on

[danman869]

There were at least three versions of "I'm So Glad I Got Somebody [Like You Around]" recorded and the released version was #3. I'd love to hear what the other versions sounded like! It was much more funky and soulful than most Supremes songs up to that point. Just wish Mary and Cindy could've been featured in the background [on the released version] instead of The Andantes.

I think "Evening Train" could've been a good choice for a LC follow-up single, too. Again, just wish Mary and Cindy had been used/audible in the background.

[bradsupremes]

I think "Evening Train" could've been a good choice for a LC follow-up single, too. Again, just wish Mary and Cindy had been used/audible in the background.

I'm fairly certain Mary [[and probably Cindy) is on "Evening Train." Ever since I was a kid, I heard her in the mix and to this day I still hear her. The Andantes are definitely in the mix, but I wouldn't be surprised if they had Mary and Cindy singing with them. It wouldn't be the first time.

[TheMotownManiac]

haha if people at motown had been actually planning things out properly, they would have held IGMYLM for a month or two and then released it after C9 and LC were through. start 1969 off with this massive hit. it would easily have gone #1 it LC and Grapevine weren't in the way.

then maybe release Evening Train, Why must we fall in love and then You Gave Me Love. and finally Someday

Motown didn’t have a choice because radio stations already playing IGMYLM And Marvin’s Grapevine so the sales department had to go with that but I don’t think love child had any negative affect on IGMLYM because it absolutely scorched up the chart and, in its fifth week, it swapped places with love child from number seven to number three. Interestingly, while the Supremes had two singles in the top 10, they also had three albums in the top 16 and five albums in the top 58. That’s remarkable. In mid January IGMYLM over took Grapevine in sales, and topped the charts at record, world, end cashbox, but could not overcome the amazing radio saturation of Grapevine affecting the Billboard chart. And you can’t blame program directors, grapevine sounded amazing on the radio - especially in the car.

It wasn’t the same for ode to Billie, Joe and Reflections, Billie Joe was a great record, and a very strong record, but reflections just wasn’t strong enough to beat it. It’s quite possible, had it got number one in sales, that it might have pushed it to number one billboard.

Baby Love and come see about me were both in the top 10 at the same time. Both went to number one but I’ve always felt that baby love chart positions. Were compromised by the early release of come to see about me. Maybe even a fifth week at number one. Not long ago I saw an interview where I think it was Lamont Dozier, musing that, same thought.

[TheMotownManiac]

I'm fairly certain Mary [[and probably Cindy) is on "Evening Train." Ever since I was a kid, I heard her in the mix and to this day I still hear her. The Andantes are definitely in the mix, but I wouldn't be surprised if they had Mary and Cindy singing with them. It wouldn't be the first time.

I agree - I’m certain I hear Mary there.

[TheMotownManiac]

There is nothing the Supremes recorded after love child that I would put out as a 45 until Someday. They got by with I’m living in shame because it was released with the group white hot:two platinum singles in the top 10, three albums in the top 15 so naturally, it got a lot of adds instantly. Plus, as sappy and corny as it is, even with the low grade production, it still pushes some of the correct buttons for Pop radio: the lyrics are easy to follow and tell a story, the melody is simple and hummable and easy on the ears, so I can see a certain element, enjoying it enough to keep it from flopping. But without its recent Pedegree, I think you’d be looking at number 27.

I don’t know that I would try to stick with a certain vein, heavy/not heavy….. except that I would like them radio friendly. Which, evidently at Motown at the time, was very difficult to achieve. Look what Berry Gordy had to do to get love child. There is so little effort in the follow up sessions. I think they should’ve brought in outside producers for the last year of their flag ship group and spare them the embarrassment of releasing records that don’t do well and that most people don’t like.

I don’t think evening train would have a chance on the radio. It’s much too hard to follow. It’s one thing to listen to the album while lying on your bed, but hanging out with friends, being at a party or hearing it in the car does not allow the kind of concentration needed to get into the lyric. It would probably get some adds because of the Supremes name, but I’m sure it would die very quickly.

There’s also a lot of talk of does your mama know about me. I think the nucleus is there for a great record that could go all the way, but a completely different production. I don’t like the one they did. they should’ve rested her voice before recording it and I think the track fights her vocal all the way through the song. the production is OK for an album cut, but it needs a much slicker, listenable vision to give this song the worthwhile chance it deserves. I think it has the possibility to be very big and something the group could be proud of. I much prefer Bobby’s version.

I am aware that I lament the lack of material at that company frequently, but since there seems to be no decent new material, it bears, repeating. Right at W. Grand Blvd., there are great songs, or songs that could have a great commercial appeal with better production. Look how Vanilla Fudge successfully reimagined you keep me hanging on. Songs I would suggest:

When I’m gone - great song that I think Brenda would hit big with, I just think it needed a more modern arrangement.

Something about you-everything is in the music and lyrics and the production but the great Levi was straining too hard on this one. Modernize the arrangement and add Ross’ cool, deft touch I think would make it a slam dunk.

danger, heartbreak, dead ahead- I think all the ingredients are there for a huge hit with a more modern arrangement.

honey love: like danger, these lyrics are just perfect for top 40. It’s got that quote a little bit of you – a little bit of me “bitch that works so well on radio. It would need a better arrangement and I know that Diana could nail the vocal.

When you’re young and in love- it’s been done and it’s been done but I still don’t think it’s been done correctly, and I really don’t care for Wanda’s vocal. I see great potential here.

I also think that it might be possible to reimagine into hit status:
Going down for the third time
Shake me wake me

I would love it if the group put out a wonderful, meaningful, socially conscious album that was a huge hit. But I settle for a succession of top 10 records that actually deserve to be there.

[Motown Eddie]

Baby Love and come see about me were both in the top 10 at the same time. Both went to number one but I’ve always felt that baby love chart positions. Were compromised by the early release of come to see about me. Maybe even a fifth week at number one. Not long ago I saw an interview where I think it was Lamont Dozier, musing that, same thought.

Yes, "Baby Love" might have spent another week at Number One but Motown had to rush release "Come See About Me" in order to fight off Nella Dodd's remake of the song. However, The Supremes still had three back to back Number One hits in 1964; setting the group up for Bigger & Better things.

[BayouMotownMan]

It's interesting that the DRATS "Progression" was derailed almost immediately after the name change took effect. Each single and lp did worse than the previous for over a year.

Berry Gordy was surely panicking, as was Ross, when radio programmers had a rather negative outlook on this name change. I can well remember the pre-Love Child records being played with DJs still saying "The Supremes" as the record faded on air. I remember some saying "That's the Supremes and Diana Ross." No one at Motown expected this backlash.

Gordy was always a gambler, and he did it again in the summer of 1968. DRATS were booked on Sullivan for late September so he locked up his best writers [[minus Smokey and Whitfield) into a Detroit hotel with the order not to emerge until they had a hit on Ross. After several mixes, Love Child was born and all parties involved knew it was a hit. DRATS had already recorded the TCB special with the Tempts and Gordy knew both groups had to have big hit records by the December air date to attract viewers. Therefore Motown PR went into overdrive promoting Love Child and Cloud 9. It worked beautifully even though radio programmers also took to Stevie and Marvin's new singles which took a bit out of the sails of Love and Cloud. Nevertheless, Motown went into December 1968 with two major hits on DRATS and the Tempts, a milestone, heavily viewed TV special on both groups, and lps selling like crazy on their duets.

This renewed interest in the new Tempts [[with Dennis Edwards) and DRATS carried over well into 1969 and beyond for the Tempts, but DRATS cooled quickly. The problem here was that no one at Motown could capture the group into a hit sound that HDH did prior. So DRATS flapped around for much of 1969. Gordy was so panicked over getting the group back on top so he could pull Diana out that he yanked Smokey's The Composer as it was heading for a certain Top 20 showing in favor of his own No Matter What Sign You Are, which made a dismal showing. This was one time Gordy gambled and lost. As the summer of 1969 came to a close, his star was cold again. Another duet lp with the Tempts didn't help and the Broadway special was not well received.

As someone said earlier, Johnny Bristol's Someday We'll Be Together was being held back for Diana's solo debut. But nobody at Motown was coming up with anything that had hit potential on Ross going into the fall of 1969 and Gordy was now determined that his unhappy star was to be launched as a soloist at year's end. They were once again booked for Sullivan in late December as the headlining act in a special celebrating Sixties music. Gordy needed a major hit for this to be Diana's swan song. Therefore Someday was moved up to be the final single for DRATS. That gamble also paid off.

For the next three years Diana Ross was hit and miss on the charts as a soloist. After Remember Me she went into the doldrums as she got pregnant and started preparing for LSTB. Her ABC tv special didn't do well. In late 1972 Diana was the coldest she had been since 1963 when the movie was issued. LSTB single handedly revived Diana's career, sunk the Ross-less Supremes who had been more consistent hitmakers than Ross, and launched Diana Ross into the superstardom she continues to enjoy.

[sup_fan]

Maniac - i just went back and looked over the dates. you're right, IGMYLM was released just a week prior to LC peaking on the charts. so you're right they really didn't overlap, other than LC was so incredibly strong it lingered in the upper reaches of the charts.

perhaps IGMYLM and Reflections could have made that last final push to Billboard 1 had there been a timely tv performance. The girls didn't do Reflections on tv until the Hollywood Palace show at the end of Sept and the song peaked at the beginning of Sept.

i know i'm overly focusing on these small details - i just want the girls to have more #1s lol

[marybrewster]

It's interesting that SO MUCH was put into "Love Child"; locking writers in a hotel room until they came up with a hit seems a little drastic and dramatic, ESPECIALLY with what followed. Why wasn't as much thought put into the subsequent singles? So much effort into "Love Child".....to have "Shame", "Sign", and "Composer" to follow? Wasn't Berry once quoted that "Motown only releases #1 records"? He surely couldn't have thought the 1969 singles were hits?

And what exactly changed from the 1968/1969 singles that DRATS were releasing to the 1970/71/72/73 singles that Diana was releasing? The backgrounds were still heavy, giving the "Supremes" feel. She and Berry and Motown relied heavily on the sound that the public had been accustomed to. That's why often "Mountain" is credited to DRATS or the Supremes. Nothing changed. Diana's "solo" career didn't start until well after LSTB.

[blackguy69]

I’ve always said Diana’s first 3 albums could easily been labeled as Supremes albums

It's interesting that SO MUCH was put into "Love Child"; locking writers in a hotel room until they came up with a hit seems a little drastic and dramatic, ESPECIALLY with what followed. Why wasn't as much thought put into the subsequent singles? So much effort into "Love Child".....to have "Shame", "Sign", and "Composer" to follow? Wasn't Berry once quoted that "Motown only releases #1 records"? He surely couldn't have thought the 1969 singles were hits?

And what exactly changed from the 1968/1969 singles that DRATS were releasing to the 1970/71/72/73 singles that Diana was releasing? The backgrounds were still heavy, giving the "Supremes" feel. She and Berry and Motown relied heavily on the sound that the public had been accustomed to. That's why often "Mountain" is credited to DRATS or the Supremes. Nothing changed. Diana's "solo" career didn't start until well after LSTB.

[sup_fan]

It's interesting that SO MUCH was put into "Love Child"; locking writers in a hotel room until they came up with a hit seems a little drastic and dramatic, ESPECIALLY with what followed. Why wasn't as much thought put into the subsequent singles? So much effort into "Love Child".....to have "Shame", "Sign", and "Composer" to follow? Wasn't Berry once quoted that "Motown only releases #1 records"? He surely couldn't have thought the 1969 singles were hits?

And what exactly changed from the 1968/1969 singles that DRATS were releasing to the 1970/71/72/73 singles that Diana was releasing? The backgrounds were still heavy, giving the "Supremes" feel. She and Berry and Motown relied heavily on the sound that the public had been accustomed to. That's why often "Mountain" is credited to DRATS or the Supremes. Nothing changed. Diana's "solo" career didn't start until well after LSTB.

as Bayou pointed out, the panic of early 68 was offset by the huge hits of late 68 [[LC, IGMYLM, the tv special, etc). I would assume they released Shame not to necessarily make a huge hit or statement [[like they did with LC) but to simply cash in on LC. i don't know that they especially cared if it hit #1 so long as it sold well. and given it's chart position of 10, i'd assume it sold sufficiently well enough.

seems like panic set in again in spring 69. at this point, the whole focus would be to announce her departure. but to do that, they needed another mega hit. I can't imagine ANYONE thought Composer would be that. and Berry should have been savvy enough to know that Sign wouldn't be the all-encompassing swan song. i can see him thinking it would be a hit but that THAT big of a hit. unless was truly was dazzled by his own image. if Sign had gone to #9 or 12 or something, i wonder if they would have thought that was big enough of a hit. i would think the demand would be for a #1 and i can't believe anyone was dumb enough to hear Sign as a #1 mega hit. even with all of the hoopla around Aquarius.

diana was doing a ton of recording on her own and so rather than needing to pull another LC and lock people in the hotel, they would have most likely used one of those tracks instead of Someday. maybe the Bones Howe stuff? would Time and Love or Stoney End be something they might have used? Mountain would have certainly been a dynamic send-off but it wasn't recorded until later in the A&S sessions i thought

[Thornton]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who hears Mary on Evening Train. Sometimes it feels like wishful thinking when I can hear Mary and Cindy's vocals somewhere in the background on songs that feature The Andantes.

[TheMotownManiac]

https://soulfuldetroit.com/blob:https://soulfuldetroit.com/0cb363cc-01a9-48e2-9fc0-d32f5c5a29a6

[Ollie9]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who hears Mary on Evening Train. Sometimes it feels like wishful thinking when I can hear Mary and Cindy's vocals somewhere in the background on songs that feature The Andantes.

I can hear Mary’s voice in there as well.

[TheMotownManiac]

It's interesting that the DRATS "Progression" was derailed almost immediately after the name change took effect. Each single and lp did worse than the previous for over a year.

Berry Gordy was surely panicking, as was Ross, when radio programmers had a rather negative outlook on this name change. I can well remember the pre-Love Child records being played with DJs still saying "The Supremes" as the record faded on air. I remember some saying "That's the Supremes and Diana Ross." No one at Motown expected this backlash.

Gordy was always a gambler, and he did it again in the summer of 1968. DRATS were booked on Sullivan for late September so he locked up his best writers [[minus Smokey and Whitfield) into a Detroit hotel with the order not to emerge until they had a hit on Ross. After several mixes, Love Child was born and all parties involved knew it was a hit. DRATS had already recorded the TCB special with the Tempts and Gordy knew both groups had to have big hit records by the December air date to attract viewers. Therefore Motown PR went into overdrive promoting Love Child and Cloud 9. It worked beautifully even though radio programmers also took to Stevie and Marvin's new singles which took a bit out of the sails of Love and Cloud. Nevertheless, Motown went into December 1968 with two major hits on DRATS and the Tempts, a milestone, heavily viewed TV special on both groups, and lps selling like crazy on their duets.

This renewed interest in the new Tempts [[with Dennis Edwards) and DRATS carried over well into 1969 and beyond for the Tempts, but DRATS cooled quickly. The problem here was that no one at Motown could capture the group into a hit sound that HDH did prior. So DRATS flapped around for much of 1969. Gordy was so panicked over getting the group back on top so he could pull Diana out that he yanked Smokey's The Composer as it was heading for a certain Top 20 showing in favor of his own No Matter What Sign You Are, which made a dismal showing. This was one time Gordy gambled and lost. As the summer of 1969 came to a close, his star was cold again. Another duet lp with the Tempts didn't help and the Broadway special was not well received.

As someone said earlier, Johnny Bristol's Someday We'll Be Together was being held back for Diana's solo debut. But nobody at Motown was coming up with anything that had hit potential on Ross going into the fall of 1969 and Gordy was now determined that his unhappy star was to be launched as a soloist at year's end. They were once again booked for Sullivan in late December as the headlining act in a special celebrating Sixties music. Gordy needed a major hit for this to be Diana's swan song. Therefore Someday was moved up to be the final single for DRATS. That gamble also paid off.

For the next three years Diana Ross was hit and miss on the charts as a soloist. After Remember Me she went into the doldrums as she got pregnant and started preparing for LSTB. Her ABC tv special didn't do well. In late 1972 Diana was the coldest she had been since 1963 when the movie was issued. LSTB single handedly revived Diana's career, sunk the Ross-less Supremes who had been more consistent hitmakers than Ross, and launched Diana Ross into the superstardom she continues to enjoy.

I have to say, I do not agree with you about the backlash. There probably was some. However, the first single to bear the name change was a radio smash all summer into the fall and went to number two. The tepid follow up also went to the top 10. I don’t see that as signs of a backlash, quite the contrary, as an ordinary record, like in and out of love, making it into the top 10 at all. The first album to bear the name change was the greatest hits which sold like gangbusters, was Motown’s all time biggest selling album until songs in the key of life, knocked Sergeant peppers out of the number one spot and stayed there for over a month. I don’t see backlash there. Now the following two singles did not do well, but they weren’t radio friendly singles. Forever came today was wonderful, but it was too heavy for radio. And some things you never get used to is a mediocre song with undistinguishable lyrics in its hook. I believe that’s why those failed. I believe they failed because they were crappy records Radio wise and not the name change. The reflections album did quite respectably - charting over a half a year, considering the hodgepodge of material and the weak singles. By the end of 1968 Diana Ross and the Supremes had five albums in the top 56. That’s almost 10% of the chart product. That’s an amazing achievement. I’m sure it has been bettered, but I don’t know where and by who. Clearly, the public was not having a problem with the name change to any discernible degree.
Motown didn’t have to do much PR for love child, it bolted out of the gate and zoomed to the top three in nearly record form. When a record is that killer, it needs very little PR. The record stores in St. Louis were going through stacks of them. Deke Richards told me the happiest moments of his career were love child and I want you back. He said they knew the day it was released that love child was going all the way, but it was quite a while before they knew I want you back was going to hit and he was really worried.

I don’t see the summer of 1969 as bleakly as you do. The group was generating its best reviews ever at its debut at the Waldorf, Ditto, their last stand at the Copa. They were still selling out all around the country. They were out of the top 10 for eight months, that’s all. Meanwhile, it was business as usual, and they had a slam dunk number one for ross to debut with and Gordy was signing big contracts right and left for diana’s solo services on stage. I don’t think they were worried much in the summer about the group. Of course he wanted a hit record on the girls badly, but when you are still packing venues with flop records out, you know your act is strong and solid. He had the disintegration of the Temptations, the new Supremes, diana ross, solo, launching the Jackson 5 and Martha Reeves, trying to kill her self to deal with. The man had things to do. They put together a fairly decent TV special in on Broadway, on paper that is. The dismal result play some more George Schlatter‘s fault, and Barry’s bag of tacky taste.
It’s true that ross’ recording career before Lady sings The blues was hit and miss, it was also that way after Lady sings the blues. The movie catapulted her to a level I don’t think anybody ever even really dreamed of. Except maybe her lol. Her special generated rave reviews. And it’s true that her recording career was the coldest in the fall of 1972. You are leaving out the fact that she had not had a release for over a year. Although the ones prior to that were certainly disappointments.

I also disagree with you That lady sings the blues had anything to do whatsoever with the fall of the new Supremes. From the get go, their album sales were rapidly dwindling, they also were becoming hit and miss, and before lady sings the blues came out, they had already been shown the door in Las Vegas with no gigs scheduled anywhere after the end of their initial three-year contract. That had nothing to do with Lady sings the blues. They were hurt by the same the same thing Diana‘s solo career was hurt by: not enough good material at the company, plus, they did lose their star attraction and two years later had yet another personnel change. The public just moved on. Honey cone and 3 degrees featured fresh, happening looks and sounds and made the group still wearing diana ross‘s old dresses seem less exciting.

[floyjoy678]

Yeah I hear Mary and Cindy on certain parts of the song too. Whenever I read it was just the Andantes, I was like "are they sure about that?".

[Thornton]

Yeah I hear Mary and Cindy on certain parts of the song too. Whenever I read it was just the Andantes, I was like "are they sure about that?".

I agree. Unless the person making the claim had access to the session logs, I think a lot of people go off what they do or don't hear. I'm always hearing new things on Motown tracks after decades of listening.

[bradsupremes]

Yeah I hear Mary and Cindy on certain parts of the song too. Whenever I read it was just the Andantes, I was like "are they sure about that?".

Another great example is "The Weight." For a long time I assumed it was just the Andantes, but if you listen closely the ladies are actually doing 5-part harmony. The background vocals were recorded May 2, 1969 and in that same session they did "Stubborn Kind Of Fellow," "I'll Be Doggone," and "Sing A Simple Song." And we know Mary and Cindy are on those songs.

[jobeterob]

I have to say, I do not agree with you about the backlash. There probably was some. However, the first single to bear the name change was a radio smash all summer into the fall and went to number two. The tepid follow up also went to the top 10. I don’t see that as signs of a backlash, quite the contrary, as an ordinary record, like in and out of love, making it into the top 10 at all. The first album to bear the name change was the greatest hits which sold like gangbusters, was Motown’s all time biggest selling album until songs in the key of life, knocked Sergeant peppers out of the number one spot and stayed there for over a month. I don’t see backlash there. Now the following two singles did not do well, but they weren’t radio friendly singles. Forever came today was wonderful, but it was too heavy for radio. And some things you never get used to is a mediocre song with undistinguishable lyrics in its hook. I believe that’s why those failed. I believe they failed because they were crappy records Radio wise and not the name change. The reflections album did quite respectably - charting over a half a year, considering the hodgepodge of material and the weak singles. By the end of 1968 Diana Ross and the Supremes had five albums in the top 56. That’s almost 10% of the chart product. That’s an amazing achievement. I’m sure it has been bettered, but I don’t know where and by who. Clearly, the public was not having a problem with the name change to any discernible degree.
Motown didn’t have to do much PR for love child, it bolted out of the gate and zoomed to the top three in nearly record form. When a record is that killer, it needs very little PR. The record stores in St. Louis were going through stacks of them. Deke Richards told me the happiest moments of his career were love child and I want you back. He said they knew the day it was released that love child was going all the way, but it was quite a while before they knew I want you back was going to hit and he was really worried.

I don’t see the summer of 1969 as bleak as you do. The group was generating its best reviews ever at its debut at the Waldorf, Ditto, their last stand at the Copa. They were still selling out all around the country. They were out of the top 10 for eight months, that’s all. Meanwhile, it was business as usual, and they had a slam dunk number one for ross to debut with and Gordy was signing big contracts right and left for diana’s solo services on stage. I don’t think they were worried much in the summer. Of course he wanted a hit record on the girls badly, but when you are still packing venues with flop records out, you know your act is strong and solid.
It’s true that ross’ recording career before Lady sings The blues was hit and miss, it was also that way after Lady sings the blues. The movie catapulted her to a level I don’t think anybody ever even really dreamed of. Except maybe her lol. Her special generated rave reviews. And it’s true that her recording career was the coldest in the fall of 1972. You are leaving out the fact that she had not had a release for over a year. Although the ones prior to that were certainly disappointments.

I also disagree with you. That lady sings the blues had anything to do whatsoever with the fall of the new Supremes. From the get go, there album sales were rapidly dwindling, they also were becoming hit and miss, and before lady sings the blues came out, they had already been shown the door in Las Vegas with no gigs scheduled anywhere after the end of their initial three-year contract. That had nothing to do with Lady sings the blues whatsoever. They were hurt by the same the same thing Diana‘s solo career was hurt by: not enough good material at the company, plus, they did lose their star attraction and two years later had yet another personnel change. The public just moved on. Honey cone and 3 degrees featured fresh, happening looks and sounds and made the group still wearing diana ross‘s old dresses seem less exciting.

Mary Wilson said none of the post Diana albums sold well and as time went on, the sales slipped further.

I don’t think there was much backlash early on - fans hoped for big hits from both and Diana did deliver Mountain and was the #1 female vocalist of 1971 according to Billboard.

The backlash and animosity developed more seriously around Motown 25 when Diana had become an enormous superstar and it was very clear that Mary Wilson would not get a record contract with a major label nor would she have any hits; and she was pissed and started to publicly say so.

And things went from bad to worse with RTL and the betrayal, jealousy, anger, divadom, and ego became legendary.

I think Janie Bradford spelled it out eloquently in the Women of Motown.

[jobeterob]

https://youtu.be/_Ryr7_G55ck?si=WueqGxr6DTSuBInp

Listen from 18 minutes to 19 minutes

https://youtu.be/_Ryr7_G55ck?si=WueqGxr6DTSuBInp

[vgalindo]

It's interesting that the DRATS "Progression" was derailed almost immediately after the name change took effect. Each single and lp did worse than the previous for over a year.

Berry Gordy was surely panicking, as was Ross, when radio programmers had a rather negative outlook on this name change. I can well remember the pre-Love Child records being played with DJs still saying "The Supremes" as the record faded on air. I remember some saying "That's the Supremes and Diana Ross." No one at Motown expected this backlash.

Gordy was always a gambler, and he did it again in the summer of 1968. DRATS were booked on Sullivan for late September so he locked up his best writers [[minus Smokey and Whitfield) into a Detroit hotel with the order not to emerge until they had a hit on Ross. After several mixes, Love Child was born and all parties involved knew it was a hit. DRATS had already recorded the TCB special with the Tempts and Gordy knew both groups had to have big hit records by the December air date to attract viewers. Therefore Motown PR went into overdrive promoting Love Child and Cloud 9. It worked beautifully even though radio programmers also took to Stevie and Marvin's new singles which took a bit out of the sails of Love and Cloud. Nevertheless, Motown went into December 1968 with two major hits on DRATS and the Tempts, a milestone, heavily viewed TV special on both groups, and lps selling like crazy on their duets.

This renewed interest in the new Tempts [[with Dennis Edwards) and DRATS carried over well into 1969 and beyond for the Tempts, but DRATS cooled quickly. The problem here was that no one at Motown could capture the group into a hit sound that HDH did prior. So DRATS flapped around for much of 1969. Gordy was so panicked over getting the group back on top so he could pull Diana out that he yanked Smokey's The Composer as it was heading for a certain Top 20 showing in favor of his own No Matter What Sign You Are, which made a dismal showing. This was one time Gordy gambled and lost. As the summer of 1969 came to a close, his star was cold again. Another duet lp with the Tempts didn't help and the Broadway special was not well received.

As someone said earlier, Johnny Bristol's Someday We'll Be Together was being held back for Diana's solo debut. But nobody at Motown was coming up with anything that had hit potential on Ross going into the fall of 1969 and Gordy was now determined that his unhappy star was to be launched as a soloist at year's end. They were once again booked for Sullivan in late December as the headlining act in a special celebrating Sixties music. Gordy needed a major hit for this to be Diana's swan song. Therefore Someday was moved up to be the final single for DRATS. That gamble also paid off.

For the next three years Diana Ross was hit and miss on the charts as a soloist. After Remember Me she went into the doldrums as she got pregnant and started preparing for LSTB. Her ABC tv special didn't do well. In late 1972 Diana was the coldest she had been since 1963 when the movie was issued. LSTB single handedly revived Diana's career, sunk the Ross-less Supremes who had been more consistent hitmakers than Ross, and launched Diana Ross into the superstardom she continues to enjoy.
I always read that her ABC television special was a Neilsons rating success? This is the first time hearing that it didn’t do good.

[Ollie9]

Mary Wilson said none of the post Diana albums sold well and as time went on, the sales slipped further.

I don’t think there was much backlash early on - fans hoped for big hits from both and Diana did deliver Mountain and was the #1 female vocalist of 1971 according to Billboard.

The backlash and animosity developed more seriously around Motown 25 when Diana had become an enormous superstar and it was very clear that Mary Wilson would not get a record contract with a major label nor would she have any hits; and she was pissed and started to publicly say so.

And things went from bad to worse with RTL and the betrayal, jealousy, anger, divadom, and ego became legendary.

I think Janie Bradford spelled it out eloquently in the Women of Motown.

I agree in that the animosity seemed to get worse after Mary was manhandled on stage and publicly complained about it. Being treated as the hired help during RTL negotiations didn’t really help matters and the rest as they say is history. All rather sad, but both women managed to finally move on in the end being the all important thing.

[jim aka jtigre99]

I think that by the time they became DRATS, they had evolved into something other than charting with hit songs-they had started to become an institution. Still, Gordy had the plan to make Ross a solo and the songs were just not hitting the charts like they did when HDH was writing for DMF. When songs just weren't making the top 10 like they had been, Gordy wanted to make sure they had hits so that Diana didn't look like she was deserting a sinking ship and the possible backlash for that.
Some of the songs were too frantic in sound like Somethings and Composer,you could barely catch your breath listening to them and it was just not a natural evolution of their carefully crafted sound. With Love Child and Someday, they were just so much better songs than the other tunes. The group also went back to the sound that was more recognizable when Ross left with Ladder and Stoned Love.
Much like Love Child and Someday, Lady helped Ross get back on track after her glorious Ain't No Mountain she didn't light the charts up until Lady and Touch Me in the Morning. It was clear the Motown Machine was working overtime to continue to elevate Ross while the Supremes became journeywomen singers.
Some of the DRATS tunes remind me of the 72-73 Supremes, I read an article on Facebook where Jean said she started to sing in the mold of the group when she first started but then decided artistically she wanted to express herself during the time of IGIMTM and Bad Weather and we see how that departure from their sound did, much like some DRATS tunes just not becoming big hits.
Like I think, by 1968 they were more becoming a showbiz institution and #1 hits were not as necessary to maintain their stature. Unlike by 1973, where Mary was with 2 new girls with a departure from their sound and without 2 of the originals and the lead singer of many #1 hits, well, that progression didn't work unlike the 1968 grouping.

[sup_fan]

I always read that her ABC television special was a Neilsons rating success? This is the first time hearing that it didn’t do good.

my guess is there are multiple ways to define "good." on one hand it probably had pretty solid Neilsons. and it also had that silent movie segment with Diana doing those characters and this helped lead to her casting in LSTB.

on the flip side, it probably further segmented her away from the youth market. this was basically Vegas done on a tv special. the glitz and excessive glamor, the corny skits, etc. the 60s saw a HUGE explosion of the youth market and how lucrative that was. motown missed out on that in many ways in the later 60s and into the 70s. motown was still focusing on MOR and Queen of the House and wigs and tuxedos and all. the 14 - 29 year old audience wasn't interested in that any more. there were so many new genres of music and artists. motown was no longer as "cool" as it was in the mid 60s. this tv special did nothing to change Diana's image in those regards. therefore you didn't have teens and college kids looking for her Surrender album or the singles. they also ignored EIE

[sup_fan]

https://youtu.be/_Ryr7_G55ck?si=WueqGxr6DTSuBInp

Listen from 18 minutes to 19 minutes

https://youtu.be/_Ryr7_G55ck?si=WueqGxr6DTSuBInp

Janie is just great - she didn't try to say "no berry or diana are perfect and made 0 mistakes" but she tried to call out that they worked exceptionally hard, had the talent. tried to take the sensationalism out of this [[and with Geraldo in the 80s that's no small feat! lol)

[marybrewster]

Janie is just great - she didn't try to say "no berry or diana are perfect and made 0 mistakes" but she tried to call out that they worked exceptionally hard, had the talent. tried to take the sensationalism out of this [[and with Geraldo in the 80s that's no small feat! lol)

Interesting to hear Janine say that "Diana has and ego and money"......and "she's always had an ego."

[marybrewster]

According to WIKI, "Diana!" hit #17 of the Top 20 for shows the week it aired, and recieved Emmy nominations for Diana and Bob Mackie.

[sup_fan]

Interesting to hear Janine say that "Diana has and ego and money"......and "she's always had an ego."

and i think teachers, students and others have said she always has had an ego. even when she was poor and in the projects. fame and money didn't make her personality. she was apparently always this contrary persona

[jobeterob]

What I enjoy about Janie is she is straightforward and intelligent and made herself a success.

But what she says is that Diana worked hard and became famous and had money and thus was a target and if you aren’t shown as much love as her, that’s for you to deal with, not her.

All these very famous people become targets - Especially women and maybe especially black women, like Beyoncé and I think they generally adopt the same approach - they never respond to much of it.

[TheMotownManiac]

Mary Wilson said none of the post Diana albums sold well and as time went on, the sales slipped further.

I don’t think there was much backlash early on - fans hoped for big hits from both and Diana did deliver Mountain and was the #1 female vocalist of 1971 according to Billboard.

The backlash and animosity developed more seriously around Motown 25 when Diana had become an enormous superstar and it was very clear that Mary Wilson would not get a record contract with a major label nor would she have any hits; and she was pissed and started to publicly say so.

And things went from bad to worse with RTL and the betrayal, jealousy, anger, divadom, and ego became legendary.

I think Janie Bradford spelled it out eloquently in the Women of Motown.

all but a select few had moved on from mary wilson by 1980. I think very very very few people cared if she got a recording contract or not. That was proven by her Motown album, which garnered very little interest, even though it was high profile in the bars, and in record stores. Sam Goody, had a poster in a couple stores in St. Louis, and in the more gay, friendly, independent stores there was an album cover on the wall that was a little bit bigger than a regular album cover. It had a chance to take off enough to gauge interest in her, and there was very little. Not enough for Motown to want to do a second album, and they needed income. Nobody outside of that little niche cared at all until after her book came out, and she made diana to be a monster, and she the victim of the monster. she did a beautiful job of building her brand, but still not enough to get a deal and I really don’t think anybody was losing sleep over it.

and, although I understand why, she did what she did, diana really miss played her hand during RTL. She should have been forthright with the press from the very beginning stating something to the effect that she had absolutely nothing to do with the deals that Mary and Cindy had with the promoters because she felt it would be cleaner that way. When the 20 million fable reared its ugly head, Diana should’ve just come out and said that’s a lie, it’s absolutely nothing like that, it would be impossible to do if it was like that and show her contract. That would’ve taken the wind out of Mary’s sails, and the public would understand why diana did not want to tour with her after making up such a big load of crap . Instead, diana came out of it looking very badly. but I didn’t see much of a backlash at radio city. She’s recognized as a national treasure, and being treated as such deservedly.

[Ollie9]

all but a select few had moved on from mary wilson by 1980. I think very very very few people cared if she got a recording contract or not. That was proven by her Motown album, which garnered very little interest, even though it was high profile in the bars, and in record stores. Sam Goody, had a poster in a couple stores in St. Louis, and in the more gay, friendly, independent stores there was an album cover on the wall that was a little bit bigger than a regular album cover. It had a chance to take off enough to gauge interest in her, and there was very little. Not enough for Motown to want to do a second album, and they needed income. Nobody outside of that little niche cared at all until after her book came out, and she made diana to be a monster, and she the victim of the monster. she did a beautiful job of building her brand, but still not enough to get a deal and I really don’t think anybody was losing sleep over it.

and, although I understand why, she did what she did, diana really miss played her hand during RTL. She should have been forthright with the press from the very beginning stating something to the effect that she had absolutely nothing to do with the deals that Mary and Cindy had with the promoters because she felt it would be cleaner that way. When the 20 million fable reared its ugly head, Diana should’ve just come out and said that’s a lie, it’s absolutely nothing like that, it would be impossible to do if it was like that and show her contract. That would’ve taken the wind out of Mary’s sails, and the public would understand why diana did not want to tour with her after making up such a big load of crap . Instead, diana came out of it looking very badly. but I didn’t see much of a backlash at radio city. She’s recognized as a national treasure, and being treated as such deservedly.

It makes one weep lol.

[RanRan79]

I'm fairly certain Mary [[and probably Cindy) is on "Evening Train." Ever since I was a kid, I heard her in the mix and to this day I still hear her. The Andantes are definitely in the mix, but I wouldn't be surprised if they had Mary and Cindy singing with them. It wouldn't be the first time.

I think the low voice might be Mary too. I don't think Cindy is the high voice.

[RanRan79]

What I enjoy about Janie is she is straightforward and intelligent and made herself a success.

But what she says is that Diana worked hard and became famous and had money and thus was a target and if you aren’t shown as much love as her, that’s for you to deal with, not her.

All these very famous people become targets - Especially women and maybe especially black women, like Beyoncé and I think they generally adopt the same approach - they never respond to much of it.

Agreed. Successful people are always targets. However, we can't pretend like some of the backlash Diana got from her peers had to do with how she treated them rather than how big she got. I think if the Diana Ross story had ended with those first five number ones and we never heard from her or the Supremes again, some of her peers would have harbored issues regarding their interactions with her. Being successful and driven is not an excuse for having a nasty attitude or disregarding the feelings of others. The generous, giving, loving side of Diana Ross is rarely discussed because it doesn't fit the image of the violative diva the public prefers to think she is. But that nasty side of her wasn't made up in response to her success. I've said before, if Diana didn't always like what some people had to say about her, if she wanted to take issue with it, she should have looked in the mirror.

[sup_fan]

What I enjoy about Janie is she is straightforward and intelligent and made herself a success.

But what she says is that Diana worked hard and became famous and had money and thus was a target and if you aren’t shown as much love as her, that’s for you to deal with, not her.

All these very famous people become targets - Especially women and maybe especially black women, like Beyoncé and I think they generally adopt the same approach - they never respond to much of it.

agreed - that mountain is twice as steep for a black woman. i don't think anyone would say [[diana included) that she wasn't without fault or that other decisions could be made. but i agree and respect her general assertion that she wouldn't change a thing. at the end of the day, she seems satisfied with how things have turned out.

[sup_fan]

all but a select few had moved on from mary wilson by 1980. I think very very very few people cared if she got a recording contract or not. That was proven by her Motown album, which garnered very little interest, even though it was high profile in the bars, and in record stores. Sam Goody, had a poster in a couple stores in St. Louis, and in the more gay, friendly, independent stores there was an album cover on the wall that was a little bit bigger than a regular album cover. It had a chance to take off enough to gauge interest in her, and there was very little. Not enough for Motown to want to do a second album, and they needed income. Nobody outside of that little niche cared at all until after her book came out, and she made diana to be a monster, and she the victim of the monster. she did a beautiful job of building her brand, but still not enough to get a deal and I really don’t think anybody was losing sleep over it.

and, although I understand why, she did what she did, diana really miss played her hand during RTL. She should have been forthright with the press from the very beginning stating something to the effect that she had absolutely nothing to do with the deals that Mary and Cindy had with the promoters because she felt it would be cleaner that way. When the 20 million fable reared its ugly head, Diana should’ve just come out and said that’s a lie, it’s absolutely nothing like that, it would be impossible to do if it was like that and show her contract. That would’ve taken the wind out of Mary’s sails, and the public would understand why diana did not want to tour with her after making up such a big load of crap . Instead, diana came out of it looking very badly. but I didn’t see much of a backlash at radio city. She’s recognized as a national treasure, and being treated as such deservedly.

agree

by 1980, motown was pretty much "oldies." sure there were still some current hit-makers but when you said "motown", people mostly meant the years of 64 - 67. similar to what would become the Big Chill soundtrack. that would also mean that a lot of the 70s music started to slip away from the broader public consciousness. the 70s sups. the four tops and their wonderful Still Water album. Thelma houston, the undisputed truth, etc.

Mary wilson really didn't have a long-term image based solely on her 60s role, much because the group was repositioned as "DIANA ROSS and..." So yeah. by the time a solo album was released, no one cared. and it was a solo album that was frankly ill-conceived. none of the material is of a quality that warranted anything significant and pretty much none of the material was really in her wheelhouse.

i'm assuming that in 1973 when J and L left, mary had to at least give SOME thought to a solo career and possibly not at motown. if another label had expressed serious interest in her as a solo artist, i'd have to think she would have instantly left the label. same in 1977/78. i don't know if no other label was interested or if things couldn't be worked out, but obviously nothing else happened. and then in 1980 after she was released, nothing happened. and then after Dreamgirl was published, nothing happened. there frankly just wasn't a market for a Mary Wilson product, outside of a small and loyal fan base. so a revised product of "mary wilson who was undermined by Diana Ross" was released and that seemed to click to some degree

[sup_fan]

and, although I understand why, she did what she did, diana really miss played her hand during RTL. She should have been forthright with the press from the very beginning stating something to the effect that she had absolutely nothing to do with the deals that Mary and Cindy had with the promoters because she felt it would be cleaner that way. When the 20 million fable reared its ugly head, Diana should’ve just come out and said that’s a lie, it’s absolutely nothing like that, it would be impossible to do if it was like that and show her contract. That would’ve taken the wind out of Mary’s sails, and the public would understand why diana did not want to tour with her after making up such a big load of crap . Instead, diana came out of it looking very badly. but I didn’t see much of a backlash at radio city. She’s recognized as a national treasure, and being treated as such deservedly.

Diana's 20/20 interview after mary's was pretty much a disaster. i do give credit to Diana for at least making an attempt to give a rebuttal to claims. in the past she had really just stuck with the "i won't acknowledge that nonsense" approach and while there's some admiration for taking the high ground, i do think it hurt her. but in Diana's interview with Barbara, she came across as defensive, unprepared and anxious. Mary just came across as wildly bitter in her interview. So in the end, both did serious damage to their own brands and to the legacy/brand of The Supremes

[jobeterob]

Diana's 20/20 interview after mary's was pretty much a disaster. i do give credit to Diana for at least making an attempt to give a rebuttal to claims. in the past she had really just stuck with the "i won't acknowledge that nonsense" approach and while there's some admiration for taking the high ground, i do think it hurt her. but in Diana's interview with Barbara, she came across as defensive, unprepared and anxious. Mary just came across as wildly bitter in her interview. So in the end, both did serious damage to their own brands and to the legacy/brand of The Supremes

I remember articles saying damage had been done to everything Supreme - Bookings and money decreased and Mary had to compete with the FLO’s as well and that caused more friction.

Now that all is said and done Diana is regarded by the public as an icon and a national treasure. I think the public has a high regard for the Supremes and their work but the sound remembered is only Diana with some background singers and it’s somewhat known it wasn’t only Supremes in that background. I am not sure if Cindy has a large legacy but amongst fans she is the “kind” Supreme, the warm Supreme and perhaps one that got the shaft. Mary has a legacy larger than Cindy and it would be as a fighter that was a Supreme and tried to keep the Supremes and their name alive.

[Ollie9]

I remember articles saying damage had been done to everything Supreme - Bookings and money decreased and Mary had to compete with the FLO’s as well and that caused more friction.

Now that all is said and done Diana is regarded by the public as an icon and a national treasure. I think the public has a high regard for the Supremes and their work but the sound remembered is only Diana with some background singers and it’s somewhat known it wasn’t only Supremes in that background. I am not sure if Cindy has a large legacy but amongst fans she is the “kind” Supreme, the warm Supreme and perhaps one that got the shaft. Mary has a legacy larger than Cindy and it would be as a fighter that was a Supreme and tried to keep the Supremes and their name alive.

Even now, i very much doubt the majority of general public are aware that it wasn’t always Supremes featured on background.
Agree that Diana at nearly 80 is held in far higher esteem now than when younger. If she lives till 90 she might almost be considered royal.
Although it didn’t equate to album sales, Mary was much loved by industry folk and fans alike as proved by the massive amount of tributes she received upon her death.

[thommg]

all but a select few had moved on from mary wilson by 1980. I think very very very few people cared if she got a recording contract or not. That was proven by her Motown album, which garnered very little interest, even though it was high profile in the bars, and in record stores. Sam Goody, had a poster in a couple stores in St. Louis, and in the more gay, friendly, independent stores there was an album cover on the wall that was a little bit bigger than a regular album cover.

This may have been true in St. Louis, but in the Washington DC area there were no posters, no displays and Mary's album was not even in the New releases rack. You had to go to The Supremes section [[she did not even have her own at that time in most stores) and see if they had a copy. Red Hot was played in the discos, but it seemed to be filler rather than one of those songs that got everyone moving. Her album did not get any great promotion. I do agree they were not the correct songs for her. They didn't do anything to establish her voice in the listeners ear.

[marybrewster]

I remember articles saying damage had been done to everything Supreme - Bookings and money decreased and Mary had to compete with the FLO’s as well and that caused more friction.

Now that all is said and done Diana is regarded by the public as an icon and a national treasure. I think the public has a high regard for the Supremes and their work but the sound remembered is only Diana with some background singers and it’s somewhat known it wasn’t only Supremes in that background. I am not sure if Cindy has a large legacy but amongst fans she is the “kind” Supreme, the warm Supreme and perhaps one that got the shaft. Mary has a legacy larger than Cindy and it would be as a fighter that was a Supreme and tried to keep the Supremes and their name alive.

Did Mary REALLY have to compete with the FLOs though? Prior to Covid, Mary seemed steadily booked and blessed, where the FLOs, even to this day, seem to only have a handful of bookings each year.

[marybrewster]

agree

by 1980, motown was pretty much "oldies." sure there were still some current hit-makers but when you said "motown", people mostly meant the years of 64 - 67. similar to what would become the Big Chill soundtrack. that would also mean that a lot of the 70s music started to slip away from the broader public consciousness. the 70s sups. the four tops and their wonderful Still Water album. Thelma houston, the undisputed truth, etc.

Mary wilson really didn't have a long-term image based solely on her 60s role, much because the group was repositioned as "DIANA ROSS and..." So yeah. by the time a solo album was released, no one cared. and it was a solo album that was frankly ill-conceived. none of the material is of a quality that warranted anything significant and pretty much none of the material was really in her wheelhouse.

i'm assuming that in 1973 when J and L left, mary had to at least give SOME thought to a solo career and possibly not at motown. if another label had expressed serious interest in her as a solo artist, i'd have to think she would have instantly left the label. same in 1977/78. i don't know if no other label was interested or if things couldn't be worked out, but obviously nothing else happened. and then in 1980 after she was released, nothing happened. and then after Dreamgirl was published, nothing happened. there frankly just wasn't a market for a Mary Wilson product, outside of a small and loyal fan base. so a revised product of "mary wilson who was undermined by Diana Ross" was released and that seemed to click to some degree

I've often wondered why Mary wanted that elusive recording contract. Other than "One Night With You" and "Turn Around", nothing she recorded from 1979 until her death was all that exciting or showcased her true talents. Mary was, more than anything, an entertainer and carved out a pretty decent 40 year "solo" career.

[sup_fan]

This may have been true in St. Louis, but in the Washington DC area there were no posters, no displays and Mary's album was not even in the New releases rack. You had to go to The Supremes section [[she did not even have her own at that time in most stores) and see if they had a copy. Red Hot was played in the discos, but it seemed to be filler rather than one of those songs that got everyone moving. Her album did not get any great promotion. I do agree they were not the correct songs for her. They didn't do anything to establish her voice in the listeners ear.

although in Mary's book she mentions hearing Red Hot in discos all over, there was really no significant club action. at least according to the billboard dance charts. the supremes had negligible promotion from Motown but the dj in the clubs still supported the girls and played their music. they had dance hit after dance hit [[problem is it just didn't really help them jump over to pop chart hit). Given the amount of music the clubs used of the supremes, you'd think there'd be SOME action around Red Hot or other cuts on Mary's album. a dj could have easily teed it up by saying "here's the former supreme Mary wilson!" but they didn't. and IMO it's because the music was less than subpar.

[sup_fan]

I've often wondered why Mary wanted that elusive recording contract. Other than "One Night With You" and "Turn Around", nothing she recorded from 1979 until her death was all that exciting or showcased her true talents. Mary was, more than anything, an entertainer and carved out a pretty decent 40 year "solo" career.

i've long wondered why Mary continued to chase after that elusive "pop star" idea. sure it's the more lucrative but by 1979 she should have had some degree of self awareness about her abilities and where her vocal strengths were. and pop music really wasn't it. plus she was 35 in 1979 which is getting quite old to be a pop star, much less trying to launch a pop career.

although probably significantly less money, something like an Anita Baker or a jazz singer would have been glorious for her. a beautiful way to highlight her talents.

as for your comments on the FLOs, to be honest, i don't really know much about their careers. seems though that they've had significant enough bookings. i don't know how much more or less than Mary's. but to the general public, they're probably rather interchangeable. it probably would have been best to join forces. person conflicts aside, for mary, scherrie, lynda or whatever grouping could have had ALL of the oldies circuit. plus it wasn't SO many bookings that they couldn't still have had time for individual projects. mary could have still done the plays she was in. they certainly could have collaborated and made things better for all.

[thommg]

I've often wondered why Mary wanted that elusive recording contract. Other than "One Night With You" and "Turn Around", nothing she recorded from 1979 until her death was all that exciting or showcased her true talents. Mary was, more than anything, an entertainer and carved out a pretty decent 40 year "solo" career.

I very much enjoyed her Walk The Line cd, with the exception of Bodyguard which was not in a good range for her and seemed out of place on the recording. I've gone back to that multiple time, most recently when her Motown Anthology was released.

[daviddh]

For me it was about production. Some of the songs were cheesy and far below par..
I did like No Matter What Sign ,but think it was dated for 1969 but may have worked a year earlier....but now with Jimmie Hendrix and the doors on scene..these songs were just to lite..
To many gems on LC that went unnoticed..I would have went with a few of these gems.
You Gave Me Love.
Beginning of The end Of Love was a gem that remained in the vaults way to long.
Not sure who was calling the shots but, something or somebody was making poor choices in my opinion..
One of the reasons why I was hoping universal would finish the expanded editions.

[Thornton]

For me it was about production. Some of the songs were cheesy and far below par..
I did like No Matter What Sign ,but think it was dated for 1969 but may have worked a year earlier....but now with Jimmie Hendrix and the doors on scene..these songs were just to lite..
To many gems on LC that went unnoticed..I would have went with a few of these gems.
You Gave Me Love.
Beginning of The end Of Love was a gem that remained in the vaults way to long.
Not sure who was calling the shots but, something or somebody was making poor choices in my opinion..
One of the reasons why I was hoping universal would finish the expanded editions.

Couldn't agree more. So many good songs left in the vaults. You're Gonna Hear from Me, Beginning of the End of Love, Am I Asking Too Much, and Stormy all come to mind.

[jim aka jtigre99]

I think for Mary to have gone solo in 1979 while disco was reigning Supreme was definitely the wrong time with the wrong material. Mary didn't start to do her Up Close show until much later in life and even then she had to add some Supremes songs to the show. In essence, Mary was a pop star as a member of the Supremes until about 1973 when the group hit hard times.
I know that when Diana went solo in 1970 that there was no way they were also going to have Mary as a solo artist. Other labels many years later allowed group members to have a solo project while still being a member of the group. Had Motown done that for Mary while giving her soul ballads and perhaps duets with other male Motown artists like Eddie Kendricks on ballads she could have emerged as Motown's premier female soul balladeer.
I guess Mary's stardom was always tied to the Supremes and that was pop stardom. Her personae changed during DRATS when she went from being the cool, sexy one with a calm demeanor to a bubbly personality. I can only guess it was far more lucrative to try to attain pop stardom but I always wondered why she didn't follow the Sade/Anita Baker/Roberta Flack route as her voice would have been perfect for that type of material. Motown must have really played with her confidence, IMHO.

[marybrewster]

i've long wondered why Mary continued to chase after that elusive "pop star" idea. sure it's the more lucrative but by 1979 she should have had some degree of self awareness about her abilities and where her vocal strengths were. and pop music really wasn't it. plus she was 35 in 1979 which is getting quite old to be a pop star, much less trying to launch a pop career.

although probably significantly less money, something like an Anita Baker or a jazz singer would have been glorious for her. a beautiful way to highlight her talents.

as for your comments on the FLOs, to be honest, i don't really know much about their careers. seems though that they've had significant enough bookings. i don't know how much more or less than Mary's. but to the general public, they're probably rather interchangeable. it probably would have been best to join forces. person conflicts aside, for mary, scherrie, lynda or whatever grouping could have had ALL of the oldies circuit. plus it wasn't SO many bookings that they couldn't still have had time for individual projects. mary could have still done the plays she was in. they certainly could have collaborated and made things better for all.

Interestingly enough, it appears Lynda performed a "solo" set yesterday with Pam and Joyce Wilson on backup. They all look great! But if we're calling a spade a spade, isn't that "basically" another FLOs lineup, competing with Scherrie and Susaye?

[jobeterob]

i've long wondered why Mary continued to chase after that elusive "pop star" idea. sure it's the more lucrative but by 1979 she should have had some degree of self awareness about her abilities and where her vocal strengths were. and pop music really wasn't it. plus she was 35 in 1979 which is getting quite old to be a pop star, much less trying to launch a pop career.

although probably significantly less money, something like an Anita Baker or a jazz singer would have been glorious for her. a beautiful way to highlight her talents.

as for your comments on the FLOs, to be honest, i don't really know much about their careers. seems though that they've had significant enough bookings. i don't know how much more or less than Mary's. but to the general public, they're probably rather interchangeable. it probably would have been best to join forces. person conflicts aside, for mary, scherrie, lynda or whatever grouping could have had ALL of the oldies circuit. plus it wasn't SO many bookings that they couldn't still have had time for individual projects. mary could have still done the plays she was in. they certainly could have collaborated and made things better for all.

Joining forces would have been logical and rational but none of the decisions that were made by Mary and/or Pedro were logical or rational; they appeared to be driven by emotion or wild eyed dreams.

[midnightman]

It's really something when you think that as SOON as the name change happened, the group began struggling HEAVILY. They had Reflections and In and Out of Love in the top ten but this was from a group who just months earlier had had number one hits with Love Is Here and Now You're Gone and The Happening but with the name change and Flo's exit, Motown was stuck.

Like you go from a group that between WDOLG and IAOOL was spotless almost:
10 number ones
14 top fives
14 top tens
15 top twenty hits

To AFTER 1967, it was this:
2 number ones
3 top fives
4 top tens
9 top 40s

With some songs barely clinging to the top 40 and at least one missing it altogether.

Combine that with changing times, the growing independence of some Motown acts [[namely Marvin & Stevie) and their show overshadowing the music, it was clear they were far from the group that had dazzled the world between 1964-67.

[Ollie9]

For me it was about production. Some of the songs were cheesy and far below par..
I did like No Matter What Sign ,but think it was dated for 1969 but may have worked a year earlier....but now with Jimmie Hendrix and the doors on scene..these songs were just to lite..
To many gems on LC that went unnoticed..I would have went with a few of these gems.
You Gave Me Love.
Beginning of The end Of Love was a gem that remained in the vaults way to long.
Not sure who was calling the shots but, something or somebody was making poor choices in my opinion..
One of the reasons why I was hoping universal would finish the expanded editions.

Agree regarding The Beginning Of The End Of Love” being a gem. It was certainly worthy of single consideration yet never even released.
Does anyone have a recording date for the song?.

[RanRan79]

Joining the FLOS meant Mary would have been sharing a third of the profits. True, it also meant she would only be paying for a third of the expenses, but depending on how much the profits from a FLOS gig would be, it still might have been more profitable to be a solo act than a member of the group.

And again, because it bears repeating, as a solo artist you only have to deal with yourself. Mary had been singing partners with eight other women from the time she was about 14 up until she was 33. Diana could only stomach five singing partners from 14 to 25, and she was sick of it. I imagine Mary was the same way.

Mary's problem was her lack of self awareness [[the same issue Diana had going into RCA) and lack of a management team geared toward maximizing her opportunities. Those two things were never going to be assets for Mary after leaving the Supremes, and especially after leaving Motown. When you think of some of the people who got shoved down our throats in the 80s, and then think of Mary Wilson, and come up with Mary didn't have the talent, star power, etc to make it, it boggles my mind. But she was out there alone and apparently didn't have a clue about what to do. I still have yet to hear the name of even one person who was managing her during this time.

I say kudos to Mary for at least recognizing that she was good on her own. She did rely way too much on the Supremes, but that was her legacy, more than anyone else's, aside from Diana and Florence, and her right. Taking everything into account, I think she was happier having the stage to herself, rather than touring again with Jean, Lynda, Scherrie or Susaye, when things could have gotten sticky.

I also don't believe for one moment that the FLOS booked more or better gigs than Mary Wilson, not in the US.

[RanRan79]

I really don't think the name change from Supremes to DRATS made much of a difference to their success. I think if it were going to be a big issue, the public really would have turned "Reflections" off as soon as they found out it was a DRATS single. I agree with others that it all came down to the quality of music. The songs that hit, sounded like hits. The songs that didn't, don't. I'm on the fence with "Sign". I agree with others that there were better singles buried on albums and left in the vault, although I'm not sure I'm convinced that there were any monster hits left in the can.

[RanRan79]

I've often wondered why Mary wanted that elusive recording contract. Other than "One Night With You" and "Turn Around", nothing she recorded from 1979 until her death was all that exciting or showcased her true talents. Mary was, more than anything, an entertainer and carved out a pretty decent 40 year "solo" career.

Money. If the recording contract was with a record label that knew exactly what to do with her, and she had management who knew exactly how to market her, it could have been a much more lucrative money stream than her touring set.

In actuality, Mary may have wanted a recording contract, but there's very little evidence that she actively sought one out. I've always believed that had she constantly knocked on doors, some would have opened. So many artists have stories about shopping demos around and going on audition after audition to get a break. Mary shopped her GD demos for a time, but when she writes about that time, by then the demos sounded dated IMO and didn't do her the favors they might have had she shopped them immediately after leaving Motown.

Because of her age, Mary was always going to have an uphill climb, but it wasn't unachievable. Unfortunately, for whatever reason, she chose not to bring in anyone who could help her with this. Her loss.

But I agree, without it, she did carve out a pretty decent post Supremes career. She may not have been making Diana Ross money, but I bet she was making more than most of her peers in the "former group" category. And after her initial money issues when she finally had the courage to leave Pedro, we never heard about Mary struggling financially.

[mowsville]

The Beginning Of The End Of Love was recorded 26th March 1968

[marybrewster]

Money. If the recording contract was with a record label that knew exactly what to do with her, and she had management who knew exactly how to market her, it could have been a much more lucrative money stream than her touring set.

In actuality, Mary may have wanted a recording contract, but there's very little evidence that she actively sought one out. I've always believed that had she constantly knocked on doors, some would have opened. So many artists have stories about shopping demos around and going on audition after audition to get a break. Mary shopped her GD demos for a time, but when she writes about that time, by then the demos sounded dated IMO and didn't do her the favors they might have had she shopped them immediately after leaving Motown.

Because of her age, Mary was always going to have an uphill climb, but it wasn't unachievable. Unfortunately, for whatever reason, she chose not to bring in anyone who could help her with this. Her loss.

But I agree, without it, she did carve out a pretty decent post Supremes career. She may not have been making Diana Ross money, but I bet she was making more than most of her peers in the "former group" category. And after her initial money issues when she finally had the courage to leave Pedro, we never heard about Mary struggling financially.

Which is funny because now, my understanding, is that the money is in touring, not recording.

[marybrewster]

Money. If the recording contract was with a record label that knew exactly what to do with her, and she had management who knew exactly how to market her, it could have been a much more lucrative money stream than her touring set.

In actuality, Mary may have wanted a recording contract, but there's very little evidence that she actively sought one out. I've always believed that had she constantly knocked on doors, some would have opened. So many artists have stories about shopping demos around and going on audition after audition to get a break. Mary shopped her GD demos for a time, but when she writes about that time, by then the demos sounded dated IMO and didn't do her the favors they might have had she shopped them immediately after leaving Motown.

Because of her age, Mary was always going to have an uphill climb, but it wasn't unachievable. Unfortunately, for whatever reason, she chose not to bring in anyone who could help her with this. Her loss.

But I agree, without it, she did carve out a pretty decent post Supremes career. She may not have been making Diana Ross money, but I bet she was making more than most of her peers in the "former group" category. And after her initial money issues when she finally had the courage to leave Pedro, we never heard about Mary struggling financially.

And I also agree, to a large point, that Mary was more bark than bite. Did she REALLY want a recording contract? You can't tell me that there weren't at least several offers to her over the years, especially after DREAMGIRL and RTL, for at least curiosity sake. If Nedra Talley could get a record deal, no reason why Mary couldn't.

[RanRan79]

Which is funny because now, my understanding, is that the money is in touring, not recording.

Yeah, now that seems to be the case, especially for artists that may not write and produce their own material.

Did Mary ever dabble in songwriting?

[RanRan79]

And I also agree, to a large point, that Mary was more bark than bite. Did she REALLY want a recording contract? You can't tell me that there weren't at least several offers to her over the years, especially after DREAMGIRL and RTL, for at least curiosity sake. If Nedra Talley could get a record deal, no reason why Mary couldn't.

I think she really wanted a contract. I just don't think she was savvy enough to get it. Think about it: Mary was a social butterfly. She had friends all over the place, all over the business. Singers, writers, producers, record execs...Mary was extremely popular. And with maybe the exception of her friendship with Marla Gibbs giving her the opportunity to appear on 227, Mary didn't seem to use any of those connects to further her career. Insane.

To be fair, though, Mary did eventually sign with CEO Records. And then the label went belly up the day of or before her album hit the street, or something like that. There was interest from Atlantic Records, where Mary cut four or five songs. What happened with that, no one seems to know.

Ian Levine was interested in Mary, but that isn't saying much. He was interested in anybody connected to Motown. Word on the street is that he tried to get the blind girl who won the Sing Supremes record contest back in the 60s to join a revamped Supremes.

She also had some releases on some other labels throughout the 90s. If there were people interested in Mary in the 90s, when she was much older and in a whole other category than she would have been in the 80s, surely had she knocked on the right doors in the 80s something would have happened. Would she have had a Tina Turner or Patti Labelle re-emergence? Probably not. Those two were a bit of anomaly in the business at that point, me thinks. But she could have done something.

[RanRan79]

The 80s were up in the air with regards to how Mary could have carved out a place for herself beyond an "oldies act". How she didn't see what changing lanes did for Natalie Cole in the 90s is mind boggling. Mary has stated many times how much she loved jazz. Seems like I recall her saying that jazz was the bulk of what she listened to [[as an adult). That jazzy direction was tailor made for Mary. Instead, she was recording stuff like "U". No self awareness at all. Same with Diana. Had she used the 90s as a transition from whatever she was in the 80s to a mellow songstress, ala Stolen Moments, rather than doing "Take Me Higher" [[although I love the song), I think her musical legacy could have continued on high notes.

I can't help but wonder if Berry's smothering of the Supremes contributed to their inability to figure out who they truly were as artists. I fear had she lived, or had she continued to forge a singing career after ABC, that Florence may have been in the same position. Many critiques have been made about even those ABC sessions and how wrong much of the material was for Florence. Perhaps some of that was her own doing, not knowing exactly what she should be doing on account of Gordy basically telling the three of them who they were. Once allowed to figure it out for themselves, they were like deer in the headlights. Just a thought.

[reese]

Yeah, now that seems to be the case, especially for artists that may not write and produce their own material.

Did Mary ever dabble in songwriting?

I believe Mary co-wrote at least one song with her friend Brenda Russell.

[sup_fan]

in terms of why Mary didn't ever get a solo contract somewhere other than motown? of course i don't know exactly. when she was leaving the Sups in late 77, my guesses would be:

1. by 1978 she was probably just too old for other labels. she was in her mid 30s and there were SO many younger potential artists to sign.

2. her voice wasn't suited for disco which was king in 78.

3. You had some gigolo managing her named Pedro. any label boss would probably be wary

4. track record - the group didn't just disband. it sort of crashed and burned. the madison square garden fiasco. the horrible Caesar's Palace gig. plus only a blip or two of real action on the disco charts and nothing on R&B or pop.

5. rumors - i would guess that people in the industry talk. if mary was trying to get a deal with label X, i'm sure someone there would have had knowledge of people at motown or would be chatting at a reception at some industry function. word spreads. and the major problems Mary and Pedro caused for motown plus the terrible intra-group relations would have been discussed over cocktails.

then in the early 80s when she left motown and in the mid 80s when she published Dreamgirls, the reasons probably included:

1. too old - she was approaching/well into her 40s.

2. mary wilson's voice is just not a pop voice - Mary's just doesn't have that flexibility in her voice like a Natalie Cole or the Pointers. mary is more like an Anite Baker or Sade. but mary is nearly 15 years old than Anita and Sade

3. history - sometimes major successes can be a burden. mary will always be associated as a supreme. a lot of people are just not willing to allow someone to expand beyond that. they're forever locked in that role or image.

[TheMotownManiac]

It's really something when you think that as SOON as the name change happened, the group began struggling HEAVILY. They had Reflections and In and Out of Love in the top ten but this was from a group who just months earlier had had number one hits with Love Is Here and Now You're Gone and The Happening but with the name change and Flo's exit, Motown was stuck.

Like you go from a group that between WDOLG and IAOOL was spotless almost:
10 number ones
14 top fives
14 top tens
15 top twenty hits

To AFTER 1967, it was this:
2 number ones
3 top fives
4 top tens
9 top 40s

With some songs barely clinging to the top 40 and at least one missing it altogether.

Combine that with changing times, the growing independence of some Motown acts [[namely Marvin & Stevie) and their show overshadowing the music, it was clear they were far from the group that had dazzled the world between 1964-67.

have you ever heard of Holland Dozier Holland? They wrote and produced the 10 Supremes records that went to number one before Florence left. They also wrote and produced all the top tens before Florence left. They also wrote and produced the first two top, tens before Florence left. And then they left a Motown. Martha and the Vandellas never had another top 10. The Four Tops never had another top 10 at Motown. Holland Dozier and Holland were responsible for almost all of the top 10 product of both of those groups as well as the Supremes. If you’re going to compare before, and after, you might also want to include what it is you’re comparing. You keep me hanging on versus a Composer. stop in the name of love versus some things you never get used to. You can’t hurry love versus the weight. Baby love versus no matter what sign you are. The Happening versus forever came today. Do you think that the material that was released before and after Florence left it’s fairly similar and it’s quality and radio friendly attributes? Sam might argue that the records recorded after Florence left the group or a giant step down from what they recorded prior to that, which, if true, might have an impact on the sales. I could be wrong. Maybe the composer and the weight and some things you never get used to would’ve been top 10 records.

[sup_fan]

have you ever heard of Holland Dozier Holland? They wrote and produced the 10 Supremes records that went to number one before Florence left. They also wrote and produced all the top tens before Florence left. They also wrote and produced the first two top, tens before Florence left. And then they left a Motown. Martha and the Vandellas never had another top 10. The Four Tops never had another top 10 at Motown. Holland Dozier and Holland were responsible for almost all of the top 10 product of both of those groups as well as the Supremes. If you’re going to compare before, and after, you might also want to include what it is you’re comparing. You keep me hanging on versus a Composer. stop in the name of love versus some things you never get used to. You can’t hurry love versus the weight. Baby love versus no matter what sign you are. The Happening versus forever came today. Do you think that the material that was released before and after Florence left it’s fairly similar and it’s quality and radio friendly attributes? Sam might argue that the records recorded after Florence left the group or a giant step down from what they recorded prior to that, which, if true, might have an impact on the sales. I could be wrong. Maybe the composer and the weight and some things you never get used to would’ve been top 10 records.

i think there are a whole range of reasons as to why the group's chart performance dropped. sure 1 huge reason was HDH's departure. but it's not like HDH waxed nothing but #1s AFTER they left motown. sure there was definitely some good music at Invictus but it seems much of their magic was gone too. which brings up the question - had they stayed at motown would their run have continued?

after "the summer of love" in 67, the growing unrest and riots with students, Woodstock and so many other influences, the younger generation wanted something different that what most of motown was releasing. motown didn't keep up with the times, at least not to the degree they had before. Motown defined music trends in the years 64 - 67. they followed music trends from 68 on.

we've also talked about how much quality work the girls recorded. when they recorded YCHL and YKMHO, they also recorded Going Down 3rd Time, There's No Stopping Us, Mother Dear #3, Love is Here, Shake Me Wake Me, refelctions, Misery Makes it's Heart, Then, I Guess I'll always love you, going all the way to true love, come on and see me, in and out of love, the happening, all i know about you. all of this was [[more or less) recorded within the span of 12 - 18 months. any of these tunes could have been singles. and while it's true that YCHL and the other big hits really did stand out of the crowd even among these superstar recordings, every one of these is lightyears better than Composer or much of the stuff they did in 68 and 69. all of the people involved had just reached their zenith and you can't expect that to last forever.

[BayouMotownMan]

Interestingly enough, it appears Lynda performed a "solo" set yesterday with Pam and Joyce Wilson on backup. They all look great! But if we're calling a spade a spade, isn't that "basically" another FLOs lineup, competing with Scherrie and Susaye?

No it is not. This was a Lynda Laurence solo show with backing vocalists, totally different from the FLOs act which is a Supremes tribute act.

[Glenpwood]

If the Diana! TV special flopped in the ratings it might have been because ABC ran it at 10:00 PM on a Sunday night. Not actually the right time slot for the J5 fans to be up watching when they have school in the morning.

[sup_fan]

If the Diana! TV special flopped in the ratings it might have been because ABC ran it at 10:00 PM on a Sunday night. Not actually the right time slot for the J5 fans to be up watching when they have school in the morning.

i wonder if that was possibly done to accommodate time zones. 10 EST, 9 CST, 8 MST, 7 PST?

[Glenpwood]

i wonder if that was possibly done to accommodate time zones. 10 EST, 9 CST, 8 MST, 7 PST?

In those days, that only happened for live events like The Oscars. That special was obviously pre-taped. It sounds to me like ABC wanted to burn it off for some reason. Typically, a special like that would be run at 8 or 9 PM. I don't recall anything in it that wasn't family friendly.

[marybrewster]

i think there are a whole range of reasons as to why the group's chart performance dropped. sure 1 huge reason was HDH's departure. but it's not like HDH waxed nothing but #1s AFTER they left motown. sure there was definitely some good music at Invictus but it seems much of their magic was gone too. which brings up the question - had they stayed at motown would their run have continued?

after "the summer of love" in 67, the growing unrest and riots with students, Woodstock and so many other influences, the younger generation wanted something different that what most of motown was releasing. motown didn't keep up with the times, at least not to the degree they had before. Motown defined music trends in the years 64 - 67. they followed music trends from 68 on.

we've also talked about how much quality work the girls recorded. when they recorded YCHL and YKMHO, they also recorded Going Down 3rd Time, There's No Stopping Us, Mother Dear #3, Love is Here, Shake Me Wake Me, refelctions, Misery Makes it's Heart, Then, I Guess I'll always love you, going all the way to true love, come on and see me, in and out of love, the happening, all i know about you. all of this was [[more or less) recorded within the span of 12 - 18 months. any of these tunes could have been singles. and while it's true that YCHL and the other big hits really did stand out of the crowd even among these superstar recordings, every one of these is lightyears better than Composer or much of the stuff they did in 68 and 69. all of the people involved had just reached their zenith and you can't expect that to last forever.

The biggest reason was the focus of the DRATS shifted, and thus began the PUSH to get Diana into the small screen stratosphere; let's do TCB, let's do GIT, let's get her some speaking lines on Tarzan, let's pair her up with Dinah and Lucy, let's have her host Hollywood Palace, and then it was like, oh shite, we better release some records.

[sup_fan]

The biggest reason was the focus of the DRATS shifted, and thus began the PUSH to get Diana into the small screen stratosphere; let's do TCB, let's do GIT, let's get her some speaking lines on Tarzan, let's pair her up with Dinah and Lucy, let's have her host Hollywood Palace, and then it was like, oh shite, we better release some records.

i think that's part of it but if we look across the material they recorded, they just didn't really have the goods. very few of them are compelling. but at the same time listen to Sugar and Spice or Natural Resources by MRATV, Four Top Now! or Soul Spin, or marvelettes In Full Bloom. none of these were a level of quality that prior material was

seems like the Temps were holding their own with the new Whitfield stuff. i'm not as familiar with their material as other groups but i thought i read Cloud Nine had that amazing title track but the rest of the lp wasn't really the same. but later lps really raised the bar

[daviddh]

Been a while since I read this but
In regards to Mary and Ian Motorcity..
Ian wrote about it somewhere, thought it was here not sure but as I recall ...
He wanted Mary on board for an album.she wanted money up front, like 50 grand...he paid..he got one song ,Oo Child and she took off
No album..they folded..
Maybe someone else can fill in the blanks

[marybrewster]

Been a while since I read this but
In regards to Mary and Ian Motorcity..
Ian wrote about it somewhere, thought it was here not sure but as I recall ...
He wanted Mary on board for an album.she wanted money up front, like 50 grand...he paid..he got one song ,Oo Child and she took off
No album..they folded..
Maybe someone else can fill in the blanks

From what I recall, Ian Levine started NIGHTMARE RECORDS in 1987 to record on Kim Weston. Weston connected Levine to Mary, who recorded "Don't Get Mad, Get Even". Levine later went on to recruit over 100 former Motown stars.

In 1989, Levine offered Mary a contract, now under Motor City Records, and she recorded OOH CHILD. Around this time, Levine was busy recording Jean, Lynda, and Scherrie, but struggled to find distributors for his product. He managed to get a hit, on all people, with Frances Nero. But Nero immediately started questioning her royalties which disillusioned many of the artists, including Mary, that he had signed.

Mary, being business savvy, saw this as a sign to look elsewhere and started shopping OOH CHILD, resulting in a contract with CEO. Claiming that Levine was too busy recording other artists with questionable ethics regarding future payment, Mary hired a new manager who got her out of her Levine contract and kept her signing bonus.

Levine, at least in my opinion, was too ambitious, promising success to too many artists that hadn't had hits in years.

[Spreadinglove21]

I think the extent of the artistic vision that Diana and Mary had for their careers is along the lines of: Singing popular songs [[preferably hits they made) to the best of their abilities while wearing glamorous clothes and making as much money as possible. Later Diana added wanting to sing songs that were positive and uplifting.

[BayouMotownMan]

It didn't flop it just didn't attract the viewership TCB did or what Gordy wanted for Diana. I would better myself to call the special a mild success. I don't think it won its time slot, but I can't remember for sure.

Actually none of Diana's tv specials, including 1977 and 1981 were huge ratings winners.

Disgustingly Out Of Darkness did poorly in the ratings as well. Her last movie Double Platinum did much better, but one has to wonder if that was because of Brandy, who was a much hotter artist at the time. The ratings should have been reversed, OOD almost superceded LSTB in terms of Ross's acting abilities. A brilliant, heart-wrenching performance.

I have no idea why she stopped making TV film.

[BayouMotownMan]

As far as when was the opportune time for Mary to go solo, hindsight is always perfect vision.

The time to make a break is when your group is hot, such as what Diana did with Someday We'll Be Together.

With this philosophy I think the best time for Mary to have made the solo move would have been after the release of the Floy Joy lp. She had major hit records after Ross left and became more visible in the act itself. During the following two singles off the FJ lp, which didn't do well, it would have been a good time for Mary to issue a solo lp in an effort to test the waters.

When a group member waits until their group is cold to go solo it's basically like starting all over again. Jean Terrell waited five years to issue a solo lp. Sorry Jean, but the record buying public had forgotten you by then. Likewise with Mary in 1979, the group was dead and buried and she was associated with that. So launching her solo career then, as I said, was like starting all over, as though they had never been popular recording artists.

But Motown would have none of that

[RanRan79]

Disgustingly Out Of Darkness did poorly in the ratings as well. Her last movie Double Platinum did much better, but one has to wonder if that was because of Brandy, who was a much hotter artist at the time.

Really? One has to wonder?:p I'd wager about 99 percent of the viewing audience was because of Brandy.


The ratings should have been reversed, OOD almost superceded LSTB in terms of Ross's acting abilities. A brilliant, heart-wrenching performance.

I'm actually going to go further than that and say Out of Darkness was Diana's best acting ever. I've actually cooled off of her LSTB performance. She was unquestionably good, but when I watch it now, I'm not quite as impressed as I once was. I think her singing and connection with the music is what really makes LSTB worthwhile, not so much her acting. Out of Darkness was so unexpected. I don't think anyone saw it coming, that Diana would even portray a character with those issues. She played that part brilliantly. I think she deserved an Emmy for Out of Darkness more than she deserved an Oscar for LSTB.


I have no idea why she stopped making TV film.

Same reason she stopped making quality music...too much work involved.

[RanRan79]

As far as when was the opportune time for Mary to go solo, hindsight is always perfect vision.

The time to make a break is when your group is hot, such as what Diana did with Someday We'll Be Together.

With this philosophy I think the best time for Mary to have made the solo move would have been after the release of the Floy Joy lp. She had major hit records after Ross left and became more visible in the act itself. During the following two singles off the FJ lp, which didn't do well, it would have been a good time for Mary to issue a solo lp in an effort to test the waters.

When a group member waits until their group is cold to go solo it's basically like starting all over again. Jean Terrell waited five years to issue a solo lp. Sorry Jean, but the record buying public had forgotten you by then. Likewise with Mary in 1979, the group was dead and buried and she was associated with that. So launching her solo career then, as I said, was like starting all over, as though they had never been popular recording artists.

But Motown would have none of that

I absolutely agree and have made those points before myself. The only problem was Mary's self doubt. Had she had the confidence of a Diana or Florence, there's no telling how different the Mary story is. Yes, Mary was always a confident performer. But I think that confidence relied on her sharing the stage with Diana and Florence, and then later the replacements. Diana and Flo were confident enough to stand onstage alone and do what they do. Mary played the scared game, stayed at the fair too long, and a lot of options she would have had, dried up.

[RanRan79]

From what I recall, Ian Levine started NIGHTMARE RECORDS in 1987 to record on Kim Weston. Weston connected Levine to Mary, who recorded "Don't Get Mad, Get Even". Levine later went on to recruit over 100 former Motown stars.

In 1989, Levine offered Mary a contract, now under Motor City Records, and she recorded OOH CHILD. Around this time, Levine was busy recording Jean, Lynda, and Scherrie, but struggled to find distributors for his product. He managed to get a hit, on all people, with Frances Nero. But Nero immediately started questioning her royalties which disillusioned many of the artists, including Mary, that he had signed.

Mary, being business savvy, saw this as a sign to look elsewhere and started shopping OOH CHILD, resulting in a contract with CEO. Claiming that Levine was too busy recording other artists with questionable ethics regarding future payment, Mary hired a new manager who got her out of her Levine contract and kept her signing bonus.

Levine, at least in my opinion, was too ambitious, promising success to too many artists that hadn't had hits in years.

I applaud Ian for the idea. The execution, on the other hand, was atrocious. It's sad that he was the one who thought of this. Had Motown been smart, in the wake of Motown 25's success, and as the 80s wore on and the 60s nostalgia was through the roof, it would have created a sub-label where it re-signed a lot of those old Motown artists. Perhaps in Motown's hands, regrouped Marvelettes, Contours, Velvelettes, and folks like Kim Weston, Brenda Holloway, Jimmy Ruffin, could have been paired with a retro but current sound, which honestly was all the rage, and yielded far, far, far better quality material than what Ian gave to these legends.

Of course, there's almost zero chance Mary or Jean would have had anything to do with official Motown product at that point.

[marybrewster]

It didn't flop it just didn't attract the viewership TCB did or what Gordy wanted for Diana. I would better myself to call the special a mild success. I don't think it won its time slot, but I can't remember for sure.

Actually none of Diana's tv specials, including 1977 and 1981 were huge ratings winners.

Disgustingly Out Of Darkness did poorly in the ratings as well. Her last movie Double Platinum did much better, but one has to wonder if that was because of Brandy, who was a much hotter artist at the time. The ratings should have been reversed, OOD almost superceded LSTB in terms of Ross's acting abilities. A brilliant, heart-wrenching performance.

I have no idea why she stopped making TV film.

I thought I had heard that Diana was contracted for three tv films; Out of Darkness in 1994, Double Platinum in 1999. Not sure what the third was to be.

[sansradio]

I thought I had heard that Diana was contracted for three tv films; Out of Darkness in 1994, Double Platinum in 1999. Not sure what the third was to be.

I wonder if it was to be Hot Snow, the Valaida Snow biopic that never was...

[sup_fan]

my guess is the fact that OOD was so well done and then so underappreciated had much to do with her interest in continuing to pursue projects. she invested so much of herself in that role and so much time. it also required so much time aware from her family.

i'm not meaning to say that Diana would only do things that generate tons of awards but to have such a work be ignored by the Emmys, the viewing public, etc had to be wildly discouraging.

[Boogiedown]

i'm not meaning to say that Diana would only do things that generate tons of awards but to have such a work be ignored by the Emmys, the viewing public, etc had to be wildly discouraging.

yes Tracee is still distraught over crap like not being invited onto late nite gossip shows.

[midnightman]

I definitely watched Double Platinum cause Brandy was on it. ;) I mean it did get me to buy Diana's album.

But it seems it didn't motivate anyone else besides the diehards [[which I am not) and besides it probably only helped Brandy, I think I actually bought Never Say Never BECAUSE of the movie since it had the song "Happy" on it [[I already was familiar with "Have You Ever").

And I bought EDIAND mainly cause I believed Brandy would be on it [[they even sang it together on Oprah IIRC) and was soooo disappointed when she wasn't.

Out of Darkness was so random - despite the good reviews, so I'm sure few really paid attention to it.

[midnightman]

I thought I had heard that Diana was contracted for three tv films; Out of Darkness in 1994, Double Platinum in 1999. Not sure what the third was to be.

Only one I can recall was Motown 40 that she hosted for ABC [[all three programs aired on ABC). But I don't know if that counted. It seems after OOD, the ABC deal either went kaput or was finished. IDK.

[midnightman]

It didn't flop it just didn't attract the viewership TCB did or what Gordy wanted for Diana. I would better myself to call the special a mild success. I don't think it won its time slot, but I can't remember for sure.

Actually none of Diana's tv specials, including 1977 and 1981 were huge ratings winners.

Disgustingly Out Of Darkness did poorly in the ratings as well. Her last movie Double Platinum did much better, but one has to wonder if that was because of Brandy, who was a much hotter artist at the time. The ratings should have been reversed, OOD almost superceded LSTB in terms of Ross's acting abilities. A brilliant, heart-wrenching performance.

I have no idea why she stopped making TV film.

You forgot to mention the soundtrack to the "Diana!" TV special actually wasn't too successful. It only reached number 46 on the Billboard 200, a far cry from the DRATS/Temptations first TV special's soundtrack to TCB, which reached number 1 and this was three years later. Then again, the album to the DRATS/Tempts' Broadway TV special, "GIT", didn't do so hot either [[only reaching the bottom of the top 40 at number 38).

I reckon you COULD call it a moderate success: Diana got an Emmy nomination allegedly from it. Oddly enough the only Emmy she got a nod on.

As for why she stopped making TV films. Well after her marriage to Arne fell apart and then all her demons coming to surface, I don't think she was in the mood to do anything else, and then the RTL debacle nearly destroyed her for good. So after that, she decided "screw it".

[midnightman]

I really don't think the name change from Supremes to DRATS made much of a difference to their success. I think if it were going to be a big issue, the public really would have turned "Reflections" off as soon as they found out it was a DRATS single. I agree with others that it all came down to the quality of music. The songs that hit, sounded like hits. The songs that didn't, don't. I'm on the fence with "Sign". I agree with others that there were better singles buried on albums and left in the vault, although I'm not sure I'm convinced that there were any monster hits left in the can.

Well we have to think that Reflections hit because it was the Supremes [[Diana, Mary and a departing Flo) and HDH at the peak of their powers. In and Out of Love being successful just off their name but not well enough as Reflections.

Afterwards, with HDH gone and Motown reeling, no one knew what to do with them. They got lucky with Love Child because the music scene had drastically changed to grittier soul, including the psychedelic sound from Sly but, besides from Livin' in Shame and I'm Gonna Make You Love Me, the magic was gone.

[daviddh]

The third movie was to be Hot Snow...
I think I read someone was paid to write a script ,took the money n ran.
The project fell apart.

[jobeterob]

Well we have to think that Reflections hit because it was the Supremes [[Diana, Mary and a departing Flo) and HDH at the peak of their powers. In and Out of Love being successful just off their name but not well enough as Reflections.

Afterwards, with HDH gone and Motown reeling, no one knew what to do with them. They got lucky with Love Child because the music scene had drastically changed to grittier soul, including the psychedelic sound from Sly but, besides from Livin' in Shame and I'm Gonna Make You Love Me, the magic was gone.

But within a year it was back with Someday We’ll Be Together

All this is relative. A #9 or number 20 hit for Diana or the Supremes is a flop but it’s big for Bobby Taylor and the Vancouvers and the New Supremes and the originals etc

[midnightman]

have you ever heard of Holland Dozier Holland? They wrote and produced the 10 Supremes records that went to number one before Florence left. They also wrote and produced all the top tens before Florence left. They also wrote and produced the first two top, tens before Florence left. And then they left a Motown. Martha and the Vandellas never had another top 10. The Four Tops never had another top 10 at Motown. Holland Dozier and Holland were responsible for almost all of the top 10 product of both of those groups as well as the Supremes. If you’re going to compare before, and after, you might also want to include what it is you’re comparing. You keep me hanging on versus a Composer. stop in the name of love versus some things you never get used to. You can’t hurry love versus the weight. Baby love versus no matter what sign you are. The Happening versus forever came today. Do you think that the material that was released before and after Florence left it’s fairly similar and it’s quality and radio friendly attributes? Sam might argue that the records recorded after Florence left the group or a giant step down from what they recorded prior to that, which, if true, might have an impact on the sales. I could be wrong. Maybe the composer and the weight and some things you never get used to would’ve been top 10 records.

There was no way songs like The Composer or The Weight would've been top ten hits. Motown was basically looking at the post-Flo DRATS as a Vegas/casino/show business act than a musical one.

[midnightman]

But within a year it was back with Someday We’ll Be Together

All this is relative. A #9 or number 20 hit for Diana or the Supremes is a flop but it’s big for Bobby Taylor and the Vancouvers and the New Supremes and the originals etc

I purposely didn't mention SWBT because of the history behind it almost being a Diana solo. I mean she had to leave the Supremes with a bang some kind of way!

[floyjoy678]

I purposely didn't mention SWBT because of the history behind it almost being a Diana solo. I mean she had to leave the Supremes with a bang some kind of way!

I also wouldn't be surprised if Someday hit big because it was advertised as Diana's swan song with the Supremes. It also was released at the right time: the end of the sixties.

[RanRan79]

I wonder if it was to be Hot Snow, the Valaida Snow biopic that never was...

Diana was supposed to star in some kind of May/December romance movie with Blair Underwood in the mid 90s. I wonder if this was under her or from an outside offer.

[RanRan79]

I also wouldn't be surprised if Someday hit big because it was advertised as Diana's swan song with the Supremes. It also was released at the right time: the end of the sixties.

I think "Someday" was just destined for what it became. Everything aligned up right.

First and foremost, it's just a damn great song, no matter what. The track is brilliant. Diana's lead is terrific, and Johnny's inclusion sent everything over the top.

The message of the song was very personal to a lot of people. The war was waging. Sons, brothers, husbands, friends were going off, many never coming back. "Someday" hit a lot of people where it counted.

It was a great mood to end a turbulent, noteworthy decade. Absolutely perfect.

And then there's the group itself. Diana moving on, the Supremes moving on, the hopeful futures of both. "Someday We'll Be Together" just made all the sense in the world.

[sup_fan]

well they do say that timing is key. a sound, a style - these'll very likely have different impacts at different times. i'm sure some of the sentimentality helped drive Someday up the charts. but it is just a high quality song. very different from the other Supremes material

[jobeterob]

I've often wondered why Mary wanted that elusive recording contract. Other than "One Night With You" and "Turn Around", nothing she recorded from 1979 until her death was all that exciting or showcased her true talents. Mary was, more than anything, an entertainer and carved out a pretty decent 40 year "solo" career.

It would have meant more money in that era and it may have made her an in demand star again

[Boogiedown]

.....someday we'll to be together ......suuure:rolleyes: .....just like we're "together" on this release ....:p


Diana has no intention of ever getting within a 100 feet again of these broads ....


her acting now in full swing and at its best on this recording ....

[sup_fan]

.....someday we'll to be together ......suuure:rolleyes: .....just like we're "together" on this release ....:p


Diana has no intention of ever getting within a 100 feet again of these broads ....


her acting now in full swing and at its best on this recording ....

hey - i bet in 1968 she never dreamed of having a love child. but then fast forward several years...

[Boogiedown]

oh my !!:eek:!!

[jobeterob]

hey - i bet in 1968 she never dreamed of having a love child. but then fast forward several years...

But it didn’t have to bear a name of shame

[floyjoy678]

It's not a bad song. I think it would have worked as Diana's solo debut as well to be honest. Although if you ask me, she should have went solo after Love Child. That was her big chance to take the leap and I'm surprised it wasn't taken advantage of.

[sup_fan]

It's not a bad song. I think it would have worked as Diana's solo debut as well to be honest. Although if you ask me, she should have went solo after Love Child. That was her big chance to take the leap and I'm surprised it wasn't taken advantage of.

my guess is that there just wasn't enough accomplished yet. Berry wanted to set her up for movies, hollywood, broadway. She was excellent on TCB which could have been her finale, send-off. But even though GIT sucked as a special, she really came into her own as the Mistress of Ceremonies, leading the whole event. plus they wanted to further cement her in tv gigs by herself, bigger club events. They created the whole Sunshine segment of the show - would love to know when it was added and when they started to do the audience participation.

[reese]

They created the whole Sunshine segment of the show - would love to know when it was added and when they started to do the audience participation.

I think audience participation might have started with LOVE CHILD. On THE HOLLYWOOD PALACE, during their performance of the song, Diana called children on stage to do the latest dances. I've also seen photos of her doing this at various concerts.

LET THE SUNSHINE IN might have been added after LIKE HEP, but I don't know that for sure.

[sup_fan]

I think audience participation might have started with LOVE CHILD. On THE HOLLYWOOD PALACE, during their performance of the song, Diana called children on stage to do the latest dances. I've also seen photos of her doing this at various concerts.

LET THE SUNSHINE IN might have been added after LIKE HEP, but I don't know that for sure.

good point! just saw the HP clip again and thought the same thing. plus it was great for Diana's public persona - interacting all nice with the kids and all. it was a rather fun segment on the tv show.

the LTSI album was originally to be released at No Matter What Sign You Are and there are mockups of the original art. when Sign failed, my guess is that they changed the lp title to the more recognizable Sunshine. the LTSI track on the album is a shortened version of the one from Like Hep. I don't know if they had always intended to include the song or if, when redoing the album title, they added it

[reese]

the LTSI album was originally to be released at No Matter What Sign You Are and there are mockups of the original art. when Sign failed, my guess is that they changed the lp title to the more recognizable Sunshine. the LTSI track on the album is a shortened version of the one from Like Hep. I don't know if they had always intended to include the song or if, when redoing the album title, they added it

I wouldn't be surprised if they always intended to include it, as they also had Dinah Shore write the liner notes, in which she referenced LIKE HEP.

[Boogiedown]

hey - i bet in 1968 she never dreamed of having a love child. but then fast forward several years...

well and then she recorded I'M COMING OUT and a few years later .... ...???

[blackguy69]

Doubt the name change of the album was because of the failure of NMWSYA seeing it was released on May 6 and the album was released on May 26. I’m guessing the name change was in effort to cash in on the psychedelic faze at Motown.
good point! just saw the HP clip again and thought the same thing. plus it was great for Diana's public persona - interacting all nice with the kids and all. it was a rather fun segment on the tv show.

the LTSI album was originally to be released at No Matter What Sign You Are and there are mockups of the original art. when Sign failed, my guess is that they changed the lp title to the more recognizable Sunshine. the LTSI track on the album is a shortened version of the one from Like Hep. I don't know if they had always intended to include the song or if, when redoing the album title, they added it

[midnightman]

well they do say that timing is key. a sound, a style - these'll very likely have different impacts at different times. i'm sure some of the sentimentality helped drive Someday up the charts. but it is just a high quality song. very different from the other Supremes material

Yeah definitely timing cause if it wasn't pegged as the "final" Supremes song and just another single to release, it would've probably suffered a similar fate as The Composer but as RanRan said the song's message definitely related to the times, especially those still fighting at Vietnam at the time.

[midnightman]

It's not a bad song. I think it would have worked as Diana's solo debut as well to be honest. Although if you ask me, she should have went solo after Love Child. That was her big chance to take the leap and I'm surprised it wasn't taken advantage of.

It wouldn't have worked. Berry tried to have Diana leave in 1967 but after he had Marlene Barrow replace Flo before the Copacabana only to be told by the manager to bring Flo back so he realized it wasn't the time. 1969 was the right time for Diana to do like Snagglepuss and make an exit from the Supremes, stage left. Lol

[midnightman]

The third movie was to be Hot Snow...
I think I read someone was paid to write a script ,took the money n ran.
The project fell apart.

Oh was it? Hmm, then that just tells me after that happened, Diana and ABC just simply parted ways?

[midnightman]

I also wouldn't be surprised if Someday hit big because it was advertised as Diana's swan song with the Supremes. It also was released at the right time: the end of the sixties.

Yeah that's pretty much why it succeeded though the news of Diana leaving wasn't as a stunning announcement as the Beatles' breakup left but still devastating [[devastating enough for Luther Vandross to nearly repeat twelfth grade when he heard Diana was leaving. ;)).

[Levi Stubbs Tears]

68/69 was just a car crash.

Diana was supposedly Berry's #1 priority but the Motown strategy seemed to be 'just keep throwing darts and maybe one will land in the bullseye'.

The only non-Temptation singles worthy of release after the H-D-H material ran out were Love Child, Someday and probably No Matter which deserved to do better on the charts.

Even with the Tempts, Hitsville US made some bad decisions. Once again Motown UK [[well, EMI) chose better single releases [[eg 'I Second That Emotion' rather than 'The Weight').

[Ollie9]

68/69 was just a car crash.

Diana was supposedly Berry's #1 priority but the Motown strategy seemed to be 'just keep throwing darts and maybe one will land in the bullseye'.

The only non-Temptation singles worthy of release after the H-D-H material ran out were Love Child, Someday and probably No Matter which deserved to do better on the charts.

Even with the Tempts, Hitsville US made some bad decisions. Once again Motown UK [[well, EMI) chose better single releases [[eg 'I Second That Emotion' rather than 'The Weight').

I agree regarding “No Matter What Sign You Are”. It was a catchy little number that really should have gone at least top twenty. I prefer it to “Forever Came Today” and “Composer”.
“The Weight” along with “Run Run Run” has to be two of the worst Supremes single choices ever.

[daviddh]

I think, as I recall, maybe George or Andy can jump in here ..
The Mamas and Pappas had fired Michelle from the group and went on tour...
The fans revolted, and they cancelled the rest of the tour .
When they returned home , Michelle was brought back, but ,like the Supremes only lasted two more years.. I think by 1970 ,they were done.
I think I read when BG found out about fans protesting the groups firing of Michelle he regretted his decision.
The plan was to bring Florence back, but I think she declined to return.
The original plan was a farewell tour after Reflections.
Flo was gone
HDH was gone
Motown was freaking out.

[daviddh]

Can't believe BG let HDH go
No plan B.
All the hits they wrote and produced.
Somebody was out to lunch.
Year after year, so many artist would leave as contracts were coming up for renewal.

[RanRan79]

I think I read when BG found out about fans protesting the groups firing of Michelle he regretted his decision.
The plan was to bring Florence back, but I think she declined to return.
The original plan was a farewell tour after Reflections.
Flo was gone
HDH was gone
Motown was freaking out.

Not disputing that you read that, but this never happened.

Once Flo was gone, she was gone. Gordy floated the idea of Diana leaving the group in 66 and wisely determined Diana was not ready. Plans were set in motion to turn the Supremes into DRATS. DRATS was a test run for Diana Ross' solo career. There's no way Gordy thought this test would be a few months. Chances are he had already mapped out Diana remaining with the group for the duration of the decade.

[RanRan79]

Can't believe BG let HDH go
No plan B.
All the hits they wrote and produced.
Somebody was out to lunch.
Year after year, so many artist would leave as contracts were coming up for renewal.

Absolutely agree about there not being a plan B. Whenever the writing was on the wall, Gordy should have gone into overdrive, pairing the group up with it's next hit writers and producers so that in the event things didn't work out with HDH, the Supremes wouldn't be left floundering.

[TheMotownManiac]

This may have been true in St. Louis, but in the Washington DC area there were no posters, no displays and Mary's album was not even in the New releases rack. You had to go to The Supremes section [[she did not even have her own at that time in most stores) and see if they had a copy. Red Hot was played in the discos, but it seemed to be filler rather than one of those songs that got everyone moving. Her album did not get any great promotion. I do agree they were not the correct songs for her. They didn't do anything to establish her voice in the listeners ear.

The promotional material got sent to the stores, if the stores put them up or not, it’s up to them for the most part. I have a feeling whoever worked this area was aggressive because it was up in several stores. I was quite impressed how much visibility it was getting for an album that I knew wasn’t gonna go anywhere. I have friends all over the country that saw the promotional material. And somewho never did. I never thought it was a bad album, but I thought it was a Nothing album. And of course she didn’t have her own section because she was basically unknown and completely unproven and artists with one release generally went in the alphabetical’s. Even Martha usually did not have her own bin, unless they were mixing her with a Vandellas. However, most stores at that time were not carrying anything by the Vandellas, so she just got filed under R. Even though she had multiple releases in the 70s, they were always discontinued and long gone before the next one came out, so there was nothing to put in her section.

either way, it’s a sad tale. Mary trying to make her livelihood in an industry that was not welcoming her, yet she knew she was talented. Motown playing games with her, assuming they were, wasn’t helpful. If her album had shown signs of life, they would’ve followed it up. And as we’ve sent a million times, when she got her show together with the correct material, she was very good.

[TheMotownManiac]

Not disputing that you read that, but this never happened.

Once Flo was gone, she was gone. Gordy floated the idea of Diana leaving the group in 66 and wisely determined Diana was not ready. Plans were set in motion to turn the Supremes into DRATS. DRATS was a test run for Diana Ross' solo career. There's no way Gordy thought this test would be a few months. Chances are he had already mapped out Diana remaining with the group for the duration of the decade.

I think you nailed it perfectly.

[TheMotownManiac]

Yeah that's pretty much why it succeeded though the news of Diana leaving wasn't as a stunning announcement as the Beatles' breakup left but still devastating [[devastating enough for Luther Vandross to nearly repeat twelfth grade when he heard Diana was leaving. ;)).

you are leaving out the fact that it is a fantastic 45. It was perfect and it sounded perfect on the radio. People don’t buy records because it’s at the right time of the year or the right time of the decade they part with their heart into money, because they want to put the record on their spindle and listen to it over and over again. The record stormed out of the gate and zooming up the chart weeks before the announcement. Platinum 45s were rare back, then just like they are now, and it got a lot of support from radio because it was getting a lot of fan reaction. Four weeks number one on the R&B chart.

[marybrewster]

The promotional material got sent to the stores, if the stores put them up or not, it’s up to them for the most part. I have a feeling whoever worked this area was aggressive because it was up in several stores. I was quite impressed how much visibility it was getting for an album that I knew wasn’t gonna go anywhere. I have friends all over the country that saw the promotional material. And somewho never did. I never thought it was a bad album, but I thought it was a Nothing album. And of course she didn’t have her own section because she was basically unknown and completely unproven and artists with one release generally went in the alphabetical’s. Even Martha usually did not have her own bin, unless they were mixing her with a Vandellas. However, most stores at that time were not carrying anything by the Vandellas, so she just got filed under R. Even though she had multiple releases in the 70s, they were always discontinued and long gone before the next one came out, so there was nothing to put in her section.

either way, it’s a sad tale. Mary trying to make her livelihood in an industry that was not welcoming her, yet she knew she was talented. Motown playing games with her, assuming they were, wasn’t helpful. If her album had shown signs of life, they would’ve followed it up. And as we’ve sent a million times, when she got her show together with the correct material, she was very good.

In my humble opinion, two things happened:

RED HOT just wasn't a great representation of who Mary Wilson, singer, was. Not only that, but it just wasn't a great song, period. I've always thought MIDNIGHT DANCER was much stronger and more reflective of the disco counterparts being released at the time.

Also, by the end of 1979, when MARY WILSON was released, disco was on the way out. If you look at the Billboard Charts, NO MORE TEARS hit in late 1979, and FUNKYTOWN hit in the summer of 1980; everything else that hit #1 wouldn't be anything I'd consider "disco". Not to mention the big DEATH TO DISCO in the summer of 1979.

Would Mary fared better if her solo lp was released a year earlier? Or what if she'd waited out the disco craze and released something highlighting her rocker/ballad abilities in 1980?

It's definitely grown on me over the years, but MARY WILSON just isn't Mary Wilson.

[Boogiedown]

You can't blame the rock centered music industry for hating a new genre that threatened to over take their very livelihood, but if they were resistant to playing even the best that disco had to offer, they sure weren't eager to bother with yet another disco tune that was being received as inferior even within the disco arena.

There were plenty of female talents who gave disco their all who went unnoticed pop wise .....Linda Clifford, Loleatta Holloway, Grace Jones , Claudja Barry, Madleen Kane on and on ....

So no, doing half-assed disco wasn't going to cut it from any angle, no matter who you were or had been ... ....


POPS WE LOVE YOU making the same point as well ....

[RanRan79]

In my humble opinion, two things happened:

RED HOT just wasn't a great representation of who Mary Wilson, singer, was. Not only that, but it just wasn't a great song, period. I've always thought MIDNIGHT DANCER was much stronger and more reflective of the disco counterparts being released at the time.

Also, by the end of 1979, when MARY WILSON was released, disco was on the way out. If you look at the Billboard Charts, NO MORE TEARS hit in late 1979, and FUNKYTOWN hit in the summer of 1980; everything else that hit #1 wouldn't be anything I'd consider "disco". Not to mention the big DEATH TO DISCO in the summer of 1979.

Would Mary fared better if her solo lp was released a year earlier? Or what if she'd waited out the disco craze and released something highlighting her rocker/ballad abilities in 1980?

It's definitely grown on me over the years, but MARY WILSON just isn't Mary Wilson.

It's possible Mary's album would have done better in 1978, but doubtful. I also don't buy the backlash and downward trend of disco impacting the album either. I really think it just came down to the album not being anything special. I agree about "Midnight Dancer" being the single over "Red Hot". I also put my money on "Pick Up the Pieces" being Mary's best bet for a hit single of all the songs she recorded for the album. But listening to the lp, there isn't a single song that screams "monster hit". The album as constructed was probably never going to do Mary many favors, regardless of how much promotion was given, what year it was released, and the public's feelings about disco.

I do think in Smokey's hands, he may have been able to craft her a winner. I think his style of music was well suited to Mary's strengths. Might have been interesting if she could have hooked up with Lamont Dozier. I can't recall what the deal was with the Holland brothers by this point, but since they had produced a couple of great Mary leads on those last two albums, pairing them up for a full project where they could concentrate on Mary may have proved fruitful also.

Her GD tracks in 1980 definitely show signs that the completed projected very well could have gone on to present Mary Wilson without the Supremes baggage.

[marybrewster]

It's possible Mary's album would have done better in 1978, but doubtful. I also don't buy the backlash and downward trend of disco impacting the album either. I really think it just came down to the album not being anything special. I agree about "Midnight Dancer" being the single over "Red Hot". I also put my money on "Pick Up the Pieces" being Mary's best bet for a hit single of all the songs she recorded for the album. But listening to the lp, there isn't a single song that screams "monster hit". The album as constructed was probably never going to do Mary many favors, regardless of how much promotion was given, what year it was released, and the public's feelings about disco.

I do think in Smokey's hands, he may have been able to craft her a winner. I think his style of music was well suited to Mary's strengths. Might have been interesting if she could have hooked up with Lamont Dozier. I can't recall what the deal was with the Holland brothers by this point, but since they had produced a couple of great Mary leads on those last two albums, pairing them up for a full project where they could concentrate on Mary may have proved fruitful also.

Her GD tracks in 1980 definitely show signs that the completed projected very well could have gone on to present Mary Wilson without the Supremes baggage.

The other elephant in the room is that Mary's contract for a solo album was Motown's way of getting out a lawsuit with her. They were NEVER going to support this project 100%. They were NEVER going to promote to the extent of a "new" artist. They were going through the motions with EVERY intention to drop her as soon as they could. How foolish of Mary for not seeing what was so obvious.

What would make interesting conversation is: what if Mary would have hit? Would there have been a second release?

[Motown Eddie]

The other elephant in the room is that Mary's contract for a solo album was Motown's way of getting out a lawsuit with her. They were NEVER going to support this project 100%. They were NEVER going to promote to the extent of a "new" artist. They were going through the motions with EVERY intention to drop her as soon as they could. How foolish of Mary for not seeing what was so obvious.

What would make interesting conversation is: what if Mary would have hit? Would there have been a second release?

It's very possible that if Mary Wilson's LP was a hit [or produced a hit single], Motown would've given her a second release. One thing to consider is that Motown Records was in deep financial trouble at the end of the '70s thanks in part to all of the Artists that left the company [not to mention that both Diana Ross & Marvin Gaye would also be leaving at the start of the '80s] so they needed all the help they could get. Unfortunately, Mary's LP flopped and gave Motown an excuse to drop her from the label.

[jim aka jtigre99]

Mary had always stated that she felt she sang ballads best. Her 1979 debut was filled with disco. There were other songs that may have done better than Red Hot-such as I Love a Warm Summer Night, Pick Up The Pieces, Midnight Dancer and You're The Light That Guides My Way. None of them would have really been a hit but how foolish that Motown didn't see the potential of the 4 songs she recorded for her second LP. Mary was in desperate financial straits so she signed even though the company clearly signed her so she could drop her lawsuit. Disco wasn't Mary's forte but she definitely planned to do something else, when she found out how little Motown thought of her when she was dropped after presenting songs that actually were far better than her debut and possible hits.

[sup_fan]

The promotional material got sent to the stores, if the stores put them up or not, it’s up to them for the most part. I have a feeling whoever worked this area was aggressive because it was up in several stores. I was quite impressed how much visibility it was getting for an album that I knew wasn’t gonna go anywhere. I have friends all over the country that saw the promotional material. And somewho never did. I never thought it was a bad album, but I thought it was a Nothing album. And of course she didn’t have her own section because she was basically unknown and completely unproven and artists with one release generally went in the alphabetical’s. Even Martha usually did not have her own bin, unless they were mixing her with a Vandellas. However, most stores at that time were not carrying anything by the Vandellas, so she just got filed under R. Even though she had multiple releases in the 70s, they were always discontinued and long gone before the next one came out, so there was nothing to put in her section.

either way, it’s a sad tale. Mary trying to make her livelihood in an industry that was not welcoming her, yet she knew she was talented. Motown playing games with her, assuming they were, wasn’t helpful. If her album had shown signs of life, they would’ve followed it up. And as we’ve sent a million times, when she got her show together with the correct material, she was very good.

i wonder if even she had had a hit if motown would have kept her. berry was 100% done with her and wanted her gone. i would assume he even wanted her punished for all of the angst she'd stirred up with the Sups and with the lawsuit. even when Mary had had a hit while in the Sups [[floy joy) they had no interest in following up or doing anything with her. when she wanted to reform the group after J and L left and be the lead singer, motown wasn't interested. and there was NO way berry was gonna let her be the lead after Diana left. for whatever reason, motown never had 1 iota of interest in her voice. whether it was 1962, 1967, 1970, 1972, 1974, 1978 or 1980.

[bradsupremes]

i wonder if even she had had a hit if motown would have kept her. berry was 100% done with her and wanted her gone. i would assume he even wanted her punished for all of the angst she'd stirred up with the Sups and with the lawsuit. even when Mary had had a hit while in the Sups [[floy joy) they had no interest in following up or doing anything with her. when she wanted to reform the group after J and L left and be the lead singer, motown wasn't interested. and there was NO way berry was gonna let her be the lead after Diana left. for whatever reason, motown never had 1 iota of interest in her voice. whether it was 1962, 1967, 1970, 1972, 1974, 1978 or 1980.

As previously pointed out, Motown of 1980 was a lot different from Motown of 1972. A lot of acts had left between that time [[Four Tops, Gladys, Jacksons, Marvin and Diana had it with Berry were out the door, Temptations left for a brief period). Motown was struggling hit wise so it wouldn’t surprise me if Mary had a huge hit from her first album that Motown would have asked for a second album and more material. Despite the personal grudges, this was a business and if a product from your brand is making money, you keep it and get as much out of it as possible.

I understand why Motown dropped her after the first album flopped but they were incredibly foolish to not see the potential in those four tracks with Gus Dudgeon. If Mary was ever going to have a hit, it was with those songs. “Love Talk” and “Save Me” would have been solid R&B hits.

[sup_fan]

As previously pointed out, Motown of 1980 was a lot different from Motown of 1972. A lot of acts had left between that time [[Four Tops, Gladys, Jacksons, Marvin and Diana had it with Berry were out the door, Temptations left for a brief period). Motown was struggling hit wise so it wouldn’t surprise me if Mary had a huge hit from her first album that Motown would have asked for a second album and more material. Despite the personal grudges, this was a business and if a product from your brand is making money, you keep it and get as much out of it as possible.

I understand why Motown dropped her after the first album flopped but they were incredibly foolish to not see the potential in those four tracks with Gus Dudgeon. If Mary was ever going to have a hit, it was with those songs. “Love Talk” and “Save Me” would have been solid R&B hits.

but motown similarly tossed aside david ruffin and martha in the late 60s when motown was highly vulnerable due to the loss of HDH. both of those artists had a mountain of problems and issues and I've always thought that was one of the big reasons why their careers went cold. Imagine if Motown had brought in Richard Perry to do that amazing solo album on Martha? that's probably some of her best singing EVER but motown had no vision or interest in her. and she was a hell of a lot more bankable than Mary Wilson

[jobeterob]

These posts are making me wonder about some of the negativity that comes from some of these singers, some of whom were very successful.

The worst was Aretha Franklin and it might be somewhat understandable because she had babies as a child and a fractured family and difficult upbringing.

The next worse is Gladys Knight and I don’t know what causes her to seem unhappy.

But occasionally, it sounds like Mary Wilson was also pissed off enough at Motown and Pedro and Berry and Diana and the FLOS and no recording contract and no hits etc.

Success doesn’t bring happiness and all of these women had levels of success. Some it doesn’t even bring financial security but it appears Mary at least had a proper Will which Aretha Franklin couldn’t manage.

[sup_fan]

These posts are making me wonder about some of the negativity that comes from some of these singers, some of whom were very successful.

The worst was Aretha Franklin and it might be somewhat understandable because she had babies as a child and a fractured family and difficult upbringing.

The next worse is Gladys Knight and I don’t know what causes her to seem unhappy.

But occasionally, it sounds like Mary Wilson was also pissed off enough at Motown and Pedro and Berry and Diana and the FLOS and no recording contract and no hits etc.

Success doesn’t bring happiness and all of these women had levels of success. Some it doesn’t even bring financial security but it appears Mary at least had a proper Will which Aretha Franklin couldn’t manage.

Randy made a comment in one of the books that Mary was known to make foolish business decisions. I don't know why Berry really never any 1 glip of interest in Mary as a singer. some have said her voice wasn't commercial enough. some have said all mary wanted to do was party and didn't work [[back in the 60s). some have said her voice was more suited to other non-pop genres. my guess is that it was a combination of events and circumstances that pretty much brought about the situation at motown of their have 0 interest in her. by the time she was personally ready for a solo career, she was frankly too old to probably interest other labels.

so now you're professional life has been greatly curtailed. partly by your choices and partly by choices made outside of your control. of course that'll cause quite a bit of unhappiness and bitterness.

mary also jumped onto the 80s bandwagon of penning a sensational "Tell All" book. she certainly wasn't the only one to do so. but she definitely took on an approach of "being the victim" and she created a bit of a brand for herself around this.

[marybrewster]

Randy made a comment in one of the books that Mary was known to make foolish business decisions. I don't know why Berry really never any 1 glip of interest in Mary as a singer. some have said her voice wasn't commercial enough. some have said all mary wanted to do was party and didn't work [[back in the 60s). some have said her voice was more suited to other non-pop genres. my guess is that it was a combination of events and circumstances that pretty much brought about the situation at motown of their have 0 interest in her. by the time she was personally ready for a solo career, she was frankly too old to probably interest other labels.

so now you're professional life has been greatly curtailed. partly by your choices and partly by choices made outside of your control. of course that'll cause quite a bit of unhappiness and bitterness.

mary also jumped onto the 80s bandwagon of penning a sensational "Tell All" book. she certainly wasn't the only one to do so. but she definitely took on an approach of "being the victim" and she created a bit of a brand for herself around this.

Wasn't Mary THE bandwagon though?

[Ollie9]

i wonder if even she had had a hit if motown would have kept her. berry was 100% done with her and wanted her gone. i would assume he even wanted her punished for all of the angst she'd stirred up with the Sups and with the lawsuit. even when Mary had had a hit while in the Sups [[floy joy) they had no interest in following up or doing anything with her. when she wanted to reform the group after J and L left and be the lead singer, motown wasn't interested. and there was NO way berry was gonna let her be the lead after Diana left. for whatever reason, motown never had 1 iota of interest in her voice. whether it was 1962, 1967, 1970, 1972, 1974, 1978 or 1980.

I agree. BG knew that as a solo Mary’s voice held limited pop potential and wanted rid no matter what. I think the only thing that might have changed his mind would have been a massive as opposed to minor hit. Remaining with the label really was a total waste of her time and talent.
Signing with a jazz label was the way to go, a genre of music where her voice really does sound special.

[RanRan79]

These posts are making me wonder about some of the negativity that comes from some of these singers, some of whom were very successful.

The worst was Aretha Franklin and it might be somewhat understandable because she had babies as a child and a fractured family and difficult upbringing.

The next worse is Gladys Knight and I don’t know what causes her to seem unhappy.

But occasionally, it sounds like Mary Wilson was also pissed off enough at Motown and Pedro and Berry and Diana and the FLOS and no recording contract and no hits etc.

Success doesn’t bring happiness and all of these women had levels of success. Some it doesn’t even bring financial security but it appears Mary at least had a proper Will which Aretha Franklin couldn’t manage.

Isn't that life, though? Of course money doesn't make people happy, even though we often think it does. Look at Diana. All those stories about her nastiness toward other people, even though she was seemingly sitting on top of the world. And who can forget her drowning her sorrows in alcohol and then getting behind the wheel, putting not only her life but the lives of others in mortal danger.

These people are human and subject to human emotions and flaws and all of that. They all have issues. I don't believe for one moment that Aretha spent every day upset and angry. I still don't believe Gladys is this unhappy person you seem to think she is. Mary was pissed at times, and in many ways rightfully so, but she sure did seem to swing on out of here, on top of the world, hitless but very much loved.

They live life. None of them are perfect. They all have good and bad days. And I'd venture that more often than not, these folks are giving less attention to the negativity we the public seem to think they sit in hour after hour, day after day.

[RanRan79]

Wasn't Mary THE bandwagon though?

I think the trend started before her book. Hers was certainly among the gold standard of the so called genre.

[RanRan79]

I agree. BG knew that as a solo Mary’s voice held limited pop potential and wanted rid no matter what. I think the only thing that might have changed his mind would have been a massive as opposed to minor hit. Remaining with the label really was a total waste of her time and talent.
Signing with a jazz label was the way to go, a genre of music where her voice really does sound special.

I think Gordy just simply didn't care for Mary's voice enough to take an interest. I don't think pop appeal or any of that had anything to do with it, especially when you consider the various voices that he signed to Motown throughout its history. Remember, Mary was a Motown artist because she signed with the Supremes. And we all know Diana was the one Berry was the biggest fan of. Believe it or not, he also seemed to dig Florence as a singer more than Mary, producing a few early tunes on her, including their second single, and greenlighting her "People" lead for years, while Mary got part of "Enjoy Yourself" for a limited run until "Can't Take My Eyes Off of You" years later. There's no evidence Berry was the least bit concerned with Mary, aside from the one time he produced "Baby Don't Go". Perhaps he just didn't care for her singing. After all, he has opinions just like the rest of us.

Mary's early solo turn was wasted at Motown, agreed. I think those GD tracks showcase someone who didn't have to turn to jazz at that point. She was capable of making "pop" records if she was paired with someone who could play up her strengths, like any other artist. Mary's jazz mistake was not turning to that direction in the 90s when any kind of "pop" career chance was pretty much firmly in her rear view mirror. But like Diana, she couldn't let it go.

Just think of the kind of musical legacy Mary could have left behind had she turned in that direction.

[Ollie9]

I think Gordy just simply didn't care for Mary's voice enough to take an interest. I don't think pop appeal or any of that had anything to do with it, especially when you consider the various voices that he signed to Motown throughout its history. Remember, Mary was a Motown artist because she signed with the Supremes. And we all know Diana was the one Berry was the biggest fan of. Believe it or not, he also seemed to dig Florence as a singer more than Mary, producing a few early tunes on her, including their second single, and greenlighting her "People" lead for years, while Mary got part of "Enjoy Yourself" for a limited run until "Can't Take My Eyes Off of You" years later. There's no evidence Berry was the least bit concerned with Mary, aside from the one time he produced "Baby Don't Go". Perhaps he just didn't care for her singing. After all, he has opinions just like the rest of us.

Mary's early solo turn was wasted at Motown, agreed. I think those GD tracks showcase someone who didn't have to turn to jazz at that point. She was capable of making "pop" records if she was paired with someone who could play up her strengths, like any other artist. Mary's jazz mistake was not turning to that direction in the 90s when any kind of "pop" career chance was pretty much firmly in her rear view mirror. But like Diana, she couldn't let it go.

Just think of the kind of musical legacy Mary could have left behind had she turned in that direction.

I think one of, if not the major stumbling block for Mary would simply have been her age. Thirty four is a little long in the tooth to be starting a solo career in the competitive world of pop, with jazz or easy listening offing more opportunities.
It might have served her better either remaining with the Supremes for a couple more years or leaving alongside Jean and Linda though i consider that would have been a huge gamble.

[sup_fan]

Wasn't Mary THE bandwagon though?

i'm not sure of all of the books but Call Her Miss Ross, Raynoma's book, Tony Turner's book. and those are just the motown ones. let's not forget the mega book of Mommie Dearest!! lol and then there was Bette Davis' daughter's book. i'm sure there were lots of others. this was the age of the tabloid press so "tabloid books" were a hot thing too.

[sup_fan]

so we all seem to agree that mary's solo deal with motown was never probably going to amount to much. we know she was trying to get a new deal with other labels but it never seemed to come to be. at least with any large label that could have really done something.

in 1980 she did the 4 tracks with Gus Dudgeon and i agree with everyone that those were some of her best songs. Green River is rather terrible but whatever. Save Me was absolutely an excellent production and could have been a hit.

my question is then after motown dropped her, why didn't she sign with Gus and Rocket Records? Gus was a MAJOR producer at the time. this wasn't some fly by night shop or some random record guy. there were lots of artists on the label and anyone with an ear would have heard something strong with Save Me and You Danced My Heart. There had to be something else blocking this. mary had the tapes for these songs. going to any other label could have been an option because she had the finished product in her hands. any label could have at least gotten the rights to the song and released it, testing the waters to see if they could get anything in return after having put up next to nothing in terms of costs. but 0 did this.

Mary had a good voice, was a proven entertainer. was she simply demanding the sky in terms of the deal? was she just some insane batshit crazy woman in the studio and burned her reputation [[i doubt this seriously)? was she doing too much coke [[even if this is true which i doubt she's hardly different than most musicians)? did she have a manager negotiating her deal that was just poison?

[RanRan79]

I don't think she was doing much of anything. I don't believe she had a manager, at least not one worth anything. She mentions in her book that she shopped the demos around, but if I'm not mistaken, the point where she mentions this is like two years after the demos were recorded. By then music had changed drastically. Her demos sounded dated.

I also imagine that when she got booted from Motown, it probably took her at least a couple years to really get herself together. Remember she also left Pedro, had to borrow money for a down payment on a home, she had three children she had to take care of [[four if Willie was still with her). Jump starting a music career is really a single woman's domain. It's so much harder on those with small children at home. So there is that.

But overall I think Mary suffered from bad luck and a horrible case of not having direction. She was older than most labels tended to get excited over and she came with baggage. There's also issues with Motown to consider. Gordy was angry enough with Diana to put plans into motion of "sabotaging" her career at RCA by releasing competing Ross products. Could he have been pissed enough at Mary to spread the word in the industry not to touch her? I wouldn't bet against it.

I've pointed it out before, Mary was not one for taking risks. People who don't take risks in the music business tend to be the ones who get overlooked and forgotten. Even taking the Motown solo deal was Mary playing it safe. She had to know that Motown wasn't going to be any more in her corner than they were when she was with the Supremes, in those last days. But that was safer than putting herself out there for other labels to take a crack at. Her self confidence issues were still plaguing her into the 80s, so there was probably some fear of rejection. But you can't fear rejection in the music business if you want results.

Mary appears to never have been able to really figure out how to sale herself and that was to her detriment.

[RanRan79]

Mary made a brief mention of coke in her second book, how it was in the discos and everybody was doing it. The next time we hear about Mary and cocaine is Tall Tales writing about it. As far as I'm concerned, there's no evidence Mary was an addict because Tall Tales is no reliable source.

[Ollie9]

so we all seem to agree that mary's solo deal with motown was never probably going to amount to much. we know she was trying to get a new deal with other labels but it never seemed to come to be. at least with any large label that could have really done something.

in 1980 she did the 4 tracks with Gus Dudgeon and i agree with everyone that those were some of her best songs. Green River is rather terrible but whatever. Save Me was absolutely an excellent production and could have been a hit.

my question is then after motown dropped her, why didn't she sign with Gus and Rocket Records? Gus was a MAJOR producer at the time. this wasn't some fly by night shop or some random record guy. there were lots of artists on the label and anyone with an ear would have heard something strong with Save Me and You Danced My Heart. There had to be something else blocking this. mary had the tapes for these songs. going to any other label could have been an option because she had the finished product in her hands. any label could have at least gotten the rights to the song and released it, testing the waters to see if they could get anything in return after having put up next to nothing in terms of costs. but 0 did this.

Mary had a good voice, was a proven entertainer. was she simply demanding the sky in terms of the deal? was she just some insane batshit crazy woman in the studio and burned her reputation [[i doubt this seriously)? was she doing too much coke [[even if this is true which i doubt she's hardly different than most musicians)? did she have a manager negotiating her deal that was just poison?

For all our speculation, perhaps it really was simply a case of no label willing to take the risk, at least singing those type of songs.
I think the Gus Dudgeon tracks quite dated for that time period, sounding more 77/78. Even more so when compared to say “The Boss” album. Would anyone seriously have rushed to buy a song with cheesy lyrics such as “You Danced My Heart Around The Stars” during the early 80’s. Personally i think no.

[reese]

i'm not sure of all of the books but Call Her Miss Ross, Raynoma's book, Tony Turner's book. and those are just the motown ones. let's not forget the mega book of Mommie Dearest!! lol and then there was Bette Davis' daughter's book. i'm sure there were lots of others. this was the age of the tabloid press so "tabloid books" were a hot thing too.

Kitty Kelley did a bunch of them, on people like Jackie Onassis and Frank Sinatra.

[RanRan79]

Would anyone seriously have rushed to buy a song with cheesy lyrics such as “You Danced My Heart Around The Stars” during the early 80’s. Personally i think no.

Certainly not the crowd that bought the poignant "Upside down, boy you turn me inside out and round and round".:p

Sappy, melodramatic, cheesy ballads were all the rage at the time.

"Lady, I'm your knight in shining armor, and I love you. You have made me what I am, and I am yours..." so says one of the biggest hits of the 80s.

Yeah, surely "You danced my heart around the stars. Each day you carry me so far, beyond what any earthly dream can be..." was far too cheesy for the early 80s crew. Not.:cool:

[sup_fan]

Certainly not the crowd that bought the poignant "Upside down, boy you turn me inside out and round and round".:p

Sappy, melodramatic, cheesy ballads were all the rage at the time.

"Lady, I'm your knight in shining armor, and I love you. You have made me what I am, and I am yours..." so says one of the biggest hits of the 80s.

Yeah, surely "You danced my heart around the stars. Each day you carry me so far, beyond what any earthly dream can be..." was far too cheesy for the early 80s crew. Not.:cool:

i agree - i think Stars and Save Me sounded quite current in 1980. mega-cheese love ballads have pretty much ALWAYS been popular. lol the 80s certainly had their share. pretty much every song Air Supply sang and they were HUGE in the early 80s

[Ollie9]

Certainly not the crowd that bought the poignant "Upside down, boy you turn me inside out and round and round".:p

Sappy, melodramatic, cheesy ballads were all the rage at the time.

"Lady, I'm your knight in shining armor, and I love you. You have made me what I am, and I am yours..." so says one of the biggest hits of the 80s.

Yeah, surely "You danced my heart around the stars. Each day you carry me so far, beyond what any earthly dream can be..." was far too cheesy for the early 80s crew. Not.:cool:

Don’t agree.
“Upside Down” was simplistic as opposed to cheesy. This being an important difference.
“Lady was a little cheesy around the edges, but never as Mills & Boon sounding as ‘dancing someone’s heart around the stars’. It might have done well in 75 with a colossal amount of airplay, but is not something i would ever have purchased. :eek:

[sup_fan]

Upside Down is a totally different song. it's about the texture and sound. the simplistic lyric can be deceiving. it's very true that there are only a handful of notes in the melody line and nothing too challenging in terms of the words. but that doesn't mean it's an EASY song to sing and to deliver. the singer has to actually work to pull this song off by figuring out what to do with such simplicity. How many times have we heard this song sung at Karaoke or by friends in the car and it's ghastly. it's not like the song is "hard." and look at Beyonce at the Divas concert. frankly i think her performance failed too. she tried to soul it all up and it doesn't work

regarding Dance around the Stars, there are 10,000,000 ballads out there with over wrought lyrics and melodramatic tendencies. most "power ballads" utilize this. I don't see Dance as being any more of a culprit of this than pretty much any other. it's meant to be over the top.

Save Me tells a story that is compelling - two people meeting across the crowd, being attracted to each other but stuck at this event/party. and wanting to escape together. Mary's vocals are exciting, powerful. this is some of her best singing on a non-ballad song.

[marybrewster]

Dreamgirl was 1986
Call Her Miss Ross was 1989
Berry, Motown, and Me was 1990
All That Glittered was 1990
Deliver Us From Temptation was 1992
Confessions of a Motown Diva was 1994
To Be Loved was 1994
TEMPTATIONS was 1998

I think it's safe to say Mary kicked open the door for MANY of the Motown books that came after her.

[marybrewster]

And yes, Mommie Dearest, My Mother's Keeper, and Kitty Kelley's books on Jackie, Liz, Frank, and Nancy Reagan may have come out BEFORE Dreamgirl.....but those were biographies. Mary's autobiography was one of the first to spill all the tea from the inside.

[sup_fan]

And yes, Mommie Dearest, My Mother's Keeper, and Kitty Kelley's books on Jackie, Liz, Frank, and Nancy Reagan may have come out BEFORE Dreamgirl.....but those were biographies. Mary's autobiography was one of the first to spill all the tea from the inside.

what i was referring to was the more salacious approach to writing. this over the top approach seems to be something the evolved more in the later 70s and through the 80s.

Mommie Dearest was most certainly an autobiography as was My Mother's Keeper. both were written by the children about their lives with their moms. sure it's a different perspective and relationship. mother/child, star/family member versus being one of 1 singers in a group.

another interesting perspective is Randy's books versus Mary's book. Randy wrote a Diana bio around 84, then CHMR in 90 or so and then his updated Diana bio around early 00s. very different tones, data points, etc. the basic rationalization of why the 2nd and 3rd books are so different is randy attributes that to being in a different time, different environment, different data, etc.

mary republished her books at added an final section. but it doesn't appear she changed anything in her first two books. different time, different data, different place could apply here too.

[jobeterob]

Mary was made to spice up her book by the publisher

Randy was somewhat embarrassed by CHMR so fixed it all up in the update.

There were a couple items that stuck out to me in Randy’s books. He deleted all his sales information in his second book which made it seem his initial information was unreliable. And I suppose continuing sales could have turned the information erroneous.

He also said that “in the process, Mary Wilson lost Diana Ross forever”. I guess he may have been referring to M25 or just in general, but in the long run, the statement was accurate and the fans got nothing but a picture.

But most of these groups end up fighting and dislike each other; just the guys that use their upper heads and like money seem to get over it. Like Rollings Stones especially and maybe Destiny’s Child

[Ollie9]

I would far sooner a candid book from Diana than any concert announcements or new cd. Perhaps that milestone birthday next year will revive her interest.

[reese]

Dreamgirl was 1986
Call Her Miss Ross was 1989
Berry, Motown, and Me was 1990
All That Glittered was 1990
Deliver Us From Temptation was 1992
Confessions of a Motown Diva was 1994
To Be Loved was 1994
TEMPTATIONS was 1998

I think it's safe to say Mary kicked open the door for MANY of the Motown books that came after her.

I'm sure the success of Mary's first book made publishers eager to get on the Motown gravy train. But aside from CALL HER MISS ROSS, I don't know if any of the rest were particularly successful. I assume the Temptations book might have gotten renewed interest after their successful mini-series.

TEMPTATIONS was released in 1988.

Also, SMOKEY: INSIDE MY LIFE was released in 1989.

And of course, Mary's SUPREME FAITH in 1990.

[jim aka jtigre99]

I personally never found Dreamgirl to be anything like a "Diana Dearest". I think Mary's publisher's wanted to highlight the sensational but Mary wrote in terms as this was their 3 different personalities. Yes, they did love each other but there were different facets of each that bothered each other. It was understandable that Diana was laser focused on herself and making a career as a star. What she did may have caused problems for the other group members but Mary never wrote that it was malicious on Diana's part. Florence had the trauma of rape and this caused her to be distrustful. Flo ended up acting out when she saw Diana moved to the foreground and feeling she was being overlooked. This caused her pain. Mary admits she was a bit of a chicken and she held back how she felt because she was dealing with her own insecurities. I don't think Mary wrote opinions in Dreamgirl but more wrote about facts. I think her publishers wanted to focus on facts that were more sensational. I don't see the tone of Dreamgirl as malicious. I actually preferred Supreme Faith because it felt so much more a personal and human story relating to Mary's struggles with Motown, Berry, with the group and her private life.
The 1980's were certainly a different time with all of those books. Today, it is all online and nothing in these books would merit what we see everyday on Reddit,Tik Tok, Twitter[[or X) and Facebook. I think today people delve into much more personal information on enteratiners that Dreamgirl would look like nothing today.

[RanRan79]

I personally never found Dreamgirl to be anything like a "Diana Dearest". I think Mary's publisher's wanted to highlight the sensational but Mary wrote in terms as this was their 3 different personalities. Yes, they did love each other but there were different facets of each that bothered each other. It was understandable that Diana was laser focused on herself and making a career as a star. What she did may have caused problems for the other group members but Mary never wrote that it was malicious on Diana's part. Florence had the trauma of rape and this caused her to be distrustful. Flo ended up acting out when she saw Diana moved to the foreground and feeling she was being overlooked. This caused her pain. Mary admits she was a bit of a chicken and she held back how she felt because she was dealing with her own insecurities. I don't think Mary wrote opinions in Dreamgirl but more wrote about facts. I think her publishers wanted to focus on facts that were more sensational. I don't see the tone of Dreamgirl as malicious. I actually preferred Supreme Faith because it felt so much more a personal and human story relating to Mary's struggles with Motown, Berry, with the group and her private life.
The 1980's were certainly a different time with all of those books. Today, it is all online and nothing in these books would merit what we see everyday on Reddit,Tik Tok, Twitter[[or X) and Facebook. I think today people delve into much more personal information on enteratiners that Dreamgirl would look like nothing today.

I'm mostly inclined to agree here. While I don't think Mary's book is perfect, I do not read it with a "Diana Dearest" vibe, as you put it. While one could argue that some of what Mary wrote did imply that Diana was malicious at certain times, I think if you really pay attention, most, if not all of it, painted the picture of an insecure young lady, under a tremendous amount of pressure to succeed- to be the best, even- and she did things to further herself along, sometimes at the expense of others. She also lashed out at others, as people under pressure will sometimes do, and of course being in a group or entourage with the same people 24/7, those are the ones who get the bulk of the wrath.

With everything I've read about Diana Ross over the years, the more I realize Mary's first book could have been a HUGE hit piece on Diana, if that's truly where she was going. Mary apparently left out a ton of juicy details she could have used if she really wanted to make Diana look like the Wicked Witch of Detroit.

A lot is made of Mary's books, that it's one sided, etc. But whose POV was she supposed to use in writing her books, Diana's?:p And lets be real, if Diana had jumped on the "tell all" bandwagon with her book, no Rosser would bat an eye if Diana wrote about how Flo and Mary sometimes made her feel, the things they said to her face and behind her back, any of the ways she felt they may have tried to malign her trajectory. So I don't know why it was so bad for Mary to write about the same things as it related to her experience with Diana.

I will say there were times in the first book where it was clear Mary had been holding stuff in- insignificant stuff, IMO- and she tossed it in the book as digs at Diana. The story about Diana flirting with Mary's fiance; or the one about Diana taking the couch at Mary's relatives' home without offering to trade off with Mary, while Mary slept on the floor; Diana going off on Mary about eating too slowly, immediately come to mind. Yes, they paint a picture of someone who crossed lines or disregarded the feelings of others. But it was so long ago.

Diana could have squared all of this away in the wake of the first book's release with one simple press release:

"As a young lady trying to find my way in the world, I sometimes did things and said things that hurt others' feelings. Many of these moments occurred within the Supremes. We were all three trying to navigate a unique situation that we weren't prepared to handle mentally and emotionally. For my part in anyone's hurt feelings, I apologize. Specifically to Mary Wilson, if she feels that I spent time actively pushing her aside, I sincerely apologize, as that was never my intention. When things cool down, Mary and I will discuss things and figure out where to go from there."

[sup_fan]

does anyone know what other hits or major artists Gus worked on? i know he did a lot but what else was he doing around the time he did those tracks with Mary? be interesting to speculate if some of those might have worked for mary to flesh out a full album

[jim aka jtigre99]

I will say there were times in the first book where it was clear Mary had been holding stuff in- insignificant stuff, IMO- and she tossed it in the book as digs at Diana. The story about Diana flirting with Mary's fiance; or the one about Diana taking the couch at Mary's relatives' home without offering to trade off with Mary, while Mary slept on the floor; Diana going off on Mary about eating too slowly, immediately come to mind. Yes, they paint a picture of someone who crossed lines or disregarded the feelings of others. But it was so long ago.

Diana could have squared all of this away in the wake of the first book's release with one simple press release:

"As a young lady trying to find my way in the world, I sometimes did things and said things that hurt others' feelings. Many of these moments occurred within the Supremes. We were all three trying to navigate a unique situation that we weren't prepared to handle mentally and emotionally. For my part in anyone's hurt feelings, I apologize. Specifically to Mary Wilson, if she feels that I spent time actively pushing her aside, I sincerely apologize, as that was never my intention. When things cool down, Mary and I will discuss things and figure out where to go from there."
Yes, I agree in that I always wondered why so many people got so upset. Mary clearly left out anything truly damaging and some of the things she included were little things we all might get upset about with friends. Some of the things seemed rather petty and didn't paint either in a bad light.
I only wish Diana would have responded to Dreamgirl in that way. By not responding she caused some to feel she was even more difficult than presented in the book, while others felt that they must have been all lies and it would be beneath her dignity to reply. Diana shouldn't have dismissed Mary so easily. Had they spoke and perhaps talked things out the results would have been more positive. That kind of press release would have not only helped Diana's reputation but also did a little to heal the friendship of Diana and Mary. I really wish she had done something like that press release.

[reese]

does anyone know what other hits or major artists Gus worked on? i know he did a lot but what else was he doing around the time he did those tracks with Mary? be interesting to speculate if some of those might have worked for mary to flesh out a full album

He did a lot a work with Elton John[GOODBYE YELLOW BRICK ROAD] and David Bowie [SPACE ODDITY], amongst many others.

[reese]

Diana could have squared all of this away in the wake of the first book's release with one simple press release:

"As a young lady trying to find my way in the world, I sometimes did things and said things that hurt others' feelings. Many of these moments occurred within the Supremes. We were all three trying to navigate a unique situation that we weren't prepared to handle mentally and emotionally. For my part in anyone's hurt feelings, I apologize. Specifically to Mary Wilson, if she feels that I spent time actively pushing her aside, I sincerely apologize, as that was never my intention. When things cool down, Mary and I will discuss things and figure out where to go from there."

You should go into PR, Ran Ran. This is a great release. :D

At the time of DREAMGIRL, it might have been nice if Diana did such a thing. But she was newly married and about to become pregnant. She might have thought that taking the high road was the best thing. I do remember her saying to US Magazine that she felt Mary was entitled to her opinion but it was completely different from how she saw things but she didn't bear ill will.

Unfortunately, DREAMGIRL opened the door for many other books with Diana stories. Even Brenda Lee saw fit to include her less than fond memories of Diana in her book while Glen Campbell actually went the other way in his.

[marybrewster]

does anyone know what other hits or major artists Gus worked on? i know he did a lot but what else was he doing around the time he did those tracks with Mary? be interesting to speculate if some of those might have worked for mary to flesh out a full album

I believe Gus had previously worked with Elton John. Makes you wonder if Mary had met Gus during the TOUCH years; didn't Elton write the liner notes?

[reese]

I believe Gus had previously worked with Elton John. Makes you wonder if Mary had met Gus during the TOUCH years; didn't Elton write the liner notes?

Elton did write the notes for TOUCH. I think one book attributed that to his becoming friendly with Cindy when his band Bluesology did backup for the Bluebelles during their trip to England.

[marybrewster]

I'm mostly inclined to agree here. While I don't think Mary's book is perfect, I do not read it with a "Diana Dearest" vibe, as you put it. While one could argue that some of what Mary wrote did imply that Diana was malicious at certain times, I think if you really pay attention, most, if not all of it, painted the picture of an insecure young lady, under a tremendous amount of pressure to succeed- to be the best, even- and she did things to further herself along, sometimes at the expense of others. She also lashed out at others, as people under pressure will sometimes do, and of course being in a group or entourage with the same people 24/7, those are the ones who get the bulk of the wrath.

With everything I've read about Diana Ross over the years, the more I realize Mary's first book could have been a HUGE hit piece on Diana, if that's truly where she was going. Mary apparently left out a ton of juicy details she could have used if she really wanted to make Diana look like the Wicked Witch of Detroit.

A lot is made of Mary's books, that it's one sided, etc. But whose POV was she supposed to use in writing her books, Diana's?:p And lets be real, if Diana had jumped on the "tell all" bandwagon with her book, no Rosser would bat an eye if Diana wrote about how Flo and Mary sometimes made her feel, the things they said to her face and behind her back, any of the ways she felt they may have tried to malign her trajectory. So I don't know why it was so bad for Mary to write about the same things as it related to her experience with Diana.

I will say there were times in the first book where it was clear Mary had been holding stuff in- insignificant stuff, IMO- and she tossed it in the book as digs at Diana. The story about Diana flirting with Mary's fiance; or the one about Diana taking the couch at Mary's relatives' home without offering to trade off with Mary, while Mary slept on the floor; Diana going off on Mary about eating too slowly, immediately come to mind. Yes, they paint a picture of someone who crossed lines or disregarded the feelings of others. But it was so long ago.

Diana could have squared all of this away in the wake of the first book's release with one simple press release:

"As a young lady trying to find my way in the world, I sometimes did things and said things that hurt others' feelings. Many of these moments occurred within the Supremes. We were all three trying to navigate a unique situation that we weren't prepared to handle mentally and emotionally. For my part in anyone's hurt feelings, I apologize. Specifically to Mary Wilson, if she feels that I spent time actively pushing her aside, I sincerely apologize, as that was never my intention. When things cool down, Mary and I will discuss things and figure out where to go from there."

Does anyone know when it was public knowledge that Rhonda Ross was Diana and Berry's? I don't recall reading it in DREAMGIRL. Now THAT ALONE would have been scandalous.

[sansradio]

Does anyone know when it was public knowledge that Rhonda Ross was Diana and Berry's? I don't recall reading it in DREAMGIRL. Now THAT ALONE would have been scandalous.

It had been common knowledge since the beginning, especially in the African-American community. But the first public acknowledgement I recall was in Raynoma's book.

[Boogiedown]

Diana could have squared all of this away in the wake of the first book's release with one simple press release:

"As a young lady trying to find my way in the world, I sometimes did things and said things that hurt others' feelings. Many of these moments occurred within the Supremes. We were all three trying to navigate a unique situation that we weren't prepared to handle mentally and emotionally. For my part in anyone's hurt feelings, I apologize. Specifically to Mary Wilson, if she feels that I spent time actively pushing her aside, I sincerely apologize, as that was never my intention. When things cool down, Mary and I will discuss things and figure out where to go from there."

And how do you know pushing her away was never her intention?? Apologies aren't about press releases just to make you look good. And you have to own your bad behavior, not apologize that the other person "felt" some kind of way because of them .

IF Diana really felt bad or really cared , your conclusion that she should have called Mary and said, "whoa, was I really that bad.? I didn't realize, but I see now I did some bad stuff and I'm sorry." --- that would've gone a long ways.

OR it might have gone like this:

Diana: "Girl what's the big idea of citing those little incidences about me in that horrible book of yours ?"

Mary: "Well they're all true aren't they ?"

Diana: "That not the point, how dare you write about them and make them public!! I'll never forgive you. Besides, what about all the horrible, terrible stuff YOU did to me !!?"

Mary: "Oh hell, I thought you called to apologize and iron things out. You know what, go on and write your own lil' book then." click.

hee haw!

[marybrewster]

It had been common knowledge since the beginning, especially in the African-American community. But the first public acknowledgement I recall was in Raynoma's book.

I think you'd have to be blind to not know Rhonda's was Berry's. So to my point, DREAMGIRL could have been much more "Diana Dearest" but Mary didn't spill the t.

[reese]

I think you'd have to be blind to not know Rhonda's was Berry's. So to my point, DREAMGIRL could have been much more "Diana Dearest" but Mary didn't spill the t.

As it was, Mary told some business that she didn't need to, like the affairs with Smokey and Brian Holland. But at least, she didn't go into Rhonda's paternity. As it happened after the 60s, there would have been no reason to get into that anyway.

But I really felt Raynoma was low to confirm Rhonda's paternity for publication. It wasn't her business and it had no bearing on her life. Her book was just as juicy with all of her Berry revelations. It didn't need any more spice.

According to J. Randy, Diana was in some salon when Raynoma appeared on the Joan Rivers show and dropped the bomb about Rhonda. Supposedly she got the hell out of there and was so hurt that she pulled out of possibly hosting MOTOWN 30.

[sup_fan]

in regards to Mary's books, i think the problem is she gives a rather unbalanced recap of Diana's actions. she took the time to remember pretty trivial slights, like when Diana made mary sleep on the floor while she took the couch. And yet she doesn't mention stories that others have shared about how BOTH D and M really fought to help flo and smooth things over, or the times D,M and C had laughs and fun. surely it wasn't gloom and doom every day. so there's a long laundry list of Diana being snippy and a bitch and next to nothing of anything nice she ever did.

so if you're listing a myriad of the bad and little to nothing of the good, it's pretty clear what the intent was.

[Boogiedown]

in regards to Mary's books, i think the problem is she gives a rather unbalanced recap of Diana's actions. she took the time to remember pretty trivial slights, like when Diana made mary sleep on the floor while she took the couch..

Sometimes a certain incident encapsulates a bigger picture. Don't recall the details here ...but if Diana "made" Mary sleep on the floor ....yep that's pretty crummy and illustrates who between them she thought was more entitled.

So how did it go down??
"There's only one couch and I'm taking it" ----
"Mary [I have a bad back or whatever] , do you mind if I have the couch?" --- sought permission, negotiated , connived.
"Well there's only one couch , let's flip for it! " with Diana winning --- equitable approach
"Tell you what, why don't we both sleep on the floor." wow, Mother Teresa moment with Mary then saying, no that's silly Diane , you have the couch ....

[marybrewster]

As it was, Mary told some business that she didn't need to, like the affairs with Smokey and Brian Holland. But at least, she didn't go into Rhonda's paternity. As it happened after the 60s, there would have been no reason to get into that anyway.

But I really felt Raynoma was low to confirm Rhonda's paternity for publication. It wasn't her business and it had no bearing on her life. Her book was just as juicy with all of her Berry revelations. It didn't need any more spice.

According to J. Randy, Diana was in some salon when Raynoma appeared on the Joan Rivers show and dropped the bomb about Rhonda. Supposedly she got the hell out of there and was so hurt that she pulled out of possibly hosting MOTOWN 30.

I agree that it was definitely in poor taste to mention Diana's conquests; if anything she might have eluded without naming names.....although didn't Smokey recently mention in an interview that he had been in the kip with Diana? Not sure what angle he was going for with 60 year old news.

Raynoma's revelation was definitely the low of lows. But sex and scandal sells. Regardless, it sounds like EVERYONE at Motown was doing the snake dance in the sheets.

I know some have questioned Mary divulging Flo's rape. While that's a sensitive subject, I do think it's critical to the story. Clearly that event was a pivotal moment in Flo's life. It wasn't until years later that in another book [[?) that her rapist was called out by name.

[reese]

I agree that it was definitely in poor taste to mention Diana's conquests; if anything she might have eluded without naming names.....although didn't Smokey recently mention in an interview that he had been in the kip with Diana? Not sure what angle he was going for with 60 year old news.

Raynoma's revelation was definitely the low of lows. But sex and scandal sells. Regardless, it sounds like EVERYONE at Motown was doing the snake dance in the sheets.

I know some have questioned Mary divulging Flo's rape. While that's a sensitive subject, I do think it's critical to the story. Clearly that event was a pivotal moment in Flo's life. It wasn't until years later that in another book [[?) that her rapist was called out by name.

Recently Smokey admitted to having an affair with Diana but only because the interviewer lied to him, saying that Diana discussed it in her book, which wasn't true. Before that, Smokey either said they were friends or that he had dated Diana before Berry did. I suppose now Smokey might feel that it has been over 60 years, who the hell cares?

In a Players article, Mary said that Flo's family wasn't happy with the rape revelation and I can understand that. But otherwise, Mary would have painted a picture of Flo as a woman who just had a drinking problem because of not getting to sing lead when Flo had issues much deeper than that. So even though it wasn't her news to share, I understand why Mary did it.

Peter Benjamin's book named the assailant but he noted that Flo never discussed that with him. He got the name from one of Flo's nieces.

[sup_fan]

i believe the rape went to court and flo actually testified. therefore the rapist would be named as part of the public record. it's also a huge credit to flo that she was willing and able to do this. confronting your assailant can be a wildly traumatizing event, reliving the pain and fear. many victims simply cannot bring themselves to do this. for flo to do so, shows real strength of character [[please note this isn't meant to infer that those that cannot do so are weak or at fault)

[RanRan79]

Yes, I agree in that I always wondered why so many people got so upset. Mary clearly left out anything truly damaging and some of the things she included were little things we all might get upset about with friends. Some of the things seemed rather petty and didn't paint either in a bad light.
I only wish Diana would have responded to Dreamgirl in that way. By not responding she caused some to feel she was even more difficult than presented in the book, while others felt that they must have been all lies and it would be beneath her dignity to reply. Diana shouldn't have dismissed Mary so easily. Had they spoke and perhaps talked things out the results would have been more positive. That kind of press release would have not only helped Diana's reputation but also did a little to heal the friendship of Diana and Mary. I really wish she had done something like that press release.

I think Mary was really the first person to go on record about the fact that Diana could be difficult to deal with. The rumors were already out there. The perception of her as a "bitch" was already a thing. Mary basically just confirmed it, and the confirmation had weight because she was one of the Supremes.

The whole thing was messed up because of their psyches. Mary grew up being someone who buried her feelings in order to keep things from getting out of control. This is something seen quite commonly in the mental health field. So many people suppressing their emotions in order to placate other people. When it came to Diana and even Florence, and probably especially Berry, Mary would choose to swallow her anger and hurt because of where she saw herself on the Supremes totem pole. She only really risked the wrath of Florence when Mary realized that Flo was on her way out anyway. So Mary basically stored up a ton of animosity about things said and done as it related to Diana and it all came tumbling out in a book. I think both she and Diana would have been better served if Mary had gotten in Diana's face and let her know in no uncertain terms that she didn't like it when Diana said...or she didn't like it when Diana did... Perhaps Diana might- might- have thought twice about anything she might do or say that rubbed her friend the wrong way.

On the flip, Diana had no problem letting her feelings out. What she did have a problem with was not acknowledging how her actions or words may have made other people feel. All these years and Diana has never seemed to publicly acknowledge her role in why some people who know her have had issues with her, be it the past or present. I don't believe anyone should spend their lives ruminating over someone else's inability to get over the past, but it does say something about character when you accept accountability. Diana got angry at Mary for Dreamgirl and other stuff, but never once accepted that some of this was her very own fault. Mary is often accused of having a victim mentality. I'd wager Diana also has had one where this issue is concerned. It's always "Everybody's being mean to me and saying bad things about me" rather than acknowledging what might have led up to those things being said or the treatment she's getting.

[RanRan79]

You should go into PR, Ran Ran. This is a great release. :D

At the time of DREAMGIRL, it might have been nice if Diana did such a thing. But she was newly married and about to become pregnant. She might have thought that taking the high road was the best thing. I do remember her saying to US Magazine that she felt Mary was entitled to her opinion but it was completely different from how she saw things but she didn't bear ill will.

Unfortunately, DREAMGIRL opened the door for many other books with Diana stories. Even Brenda Lee saw fit to include her less than fond memories of Diana in her book while Glen Campbell actually went the other way in his.

What the heck did Brenda Lee have to say about Diana Ross? Same for Glen? I haven't read their books. Wouldn't have even thought Diana would be a topic for either of them.

Anyway, thanks for the compliment Reese!

Diana was always letting these stories hang in the air. One can take the high road and still acknowledge the issue on the table. Now I would never suggest that Diana go public every single time someone had something to say, but I would think when you really cared about someone, as we assume she did care for Mary, if she read Dreamgirl [[I've heard she didn't, but I've never believed it for a second), to read it and think "That's Mary's opinion" rather than "I didn't mean it that way" or even "I had nothing to do with that, it was Berry!", it points to a bigger issue with her that she just didn't get how her actions impacted other people.

It's like the bully who looks back at him/herself and thinks the wedgies, toilet swirlies, and crude nicknames was all in good fun, not realizing that those things made kids want to end their own lives, or gave them complexes when dealing with other people going forward. Diana looks back and sees herself and the fun she was having. If Mary was unhappy it was all Mary's fault. I'm guessing.:cool:

[RanRan79]

Does anyone know when it was public knowledge that Rhonda Ross was Diana and Berry's? I don't recall reading it in DREAMGIRL. Now THAT ALONE would have been scandalous.

Yup, if Mary was trying to win the big one, all she had to do was expose that nugget.

[RanRan79]

As it was, Mary told some business that she didn't need to, like the affairs with Smokey and Brian Holland. But at least, she didn't go into Rhonda's paternity. As it happened after the 60s, there would have been no reason to get into that anyway.

But I really felt Raynoma was low to confirm Rhonda's paternity for publication. It wasn't her business and it had no bearing on her life. Her book was just as juicy with all of her Berry revelations. It didn't need any more spice.

According to J. Randy, Diana was in some salon when Raynoma appeared on the Joan Rivers show and dropped the bomb about Rhonda. Supposedly she got the hell out of there and was so hurt that she pulled out of possibly hosting MOTOWN 30.

Raynoma is and was disgusting for that one. I wonder if she ever apologized to Diana and Rhonda about that.

My biggest issue with Dreamgirl was Mary's disclosures of Diana's relationships. Because the relationship with Gordy had a huge impact on the group, that was inevitable to be written about. But whatever Diana was up to with Smokey, with Brian Holland, with that White dude from the east coast, that was not Mary's business to tell, and if I were Diana I would be pissed about that and would have let Mary know it.

Mary also needed to take some accountability. Writing that book, especially knowing how Diana is, Mary knew it could cause issues between them, perhaps irreparably. She shows up at Diana's show with Turkessa and then feels some type of way when Diana is like "Bitch please". She couldn't have been that dumb. And I don't blame Diana at all for ghosting Mary for revealing her private life.

Let's be real, the story of Mary Wilson would probably have only done marginally well had she left out Diana's behavior and Flo's issues. Had Mary written about her own exploits during the 60s, in addition to the issues within the group and so forth, she would have still had a bestseller on her hands and she didn't need to dip into Diana's love life to do it. Yet still, in light of further information, we know Mary didn't include everything she could have about Diana's love life. Not one mention of Diana and Eddie in her book.

[RanRan79]

I know some have questioned Mary divulging Flo's rape. While that's a sensitive subject, I do think it's critical to the story. Clearly that event was a pivotal moment in Flo's life. It wasn't until years later that in another book [[?) that her rapist was called out by name.

Yeah, I think even this was included to make the book more sensational, but it also served a bigger purpose, as for those who wanted to better understand what Flo might have been going through, it was a revelation that gave insight into how Flo could go from Point A to Point B.

[RanRan79]

Recently Smokey admitted to having an affair with Diana but only because the interviewer lied to him, saying that Diana discussed it in her book, which wasn't true. Before that, Smokey either said they were friends or that he had dated Diana before Berry did. I suppose now Smokey might feel that it has been over 60 years, who the hell cares?

In a Players article, Mary said that Flo's family wasn't happy with the rape revelation and I can understand that. But otherwise, Mary would have painted a picture of Flo as a woman who just had a drinking problem because of not getting to sing lead when Flo had issues much deeper than that. So even though it wasn't her news to share, I understand why Mary did it.

Peter Benjamin's book named the assailant but he noted that Flo never discussed that with him. He got the name from one of Flo's nieces.

I didn't realize Smokey had been duped. I just assumed that he decided to talk about 60 year old stuff that neither he nor Diana probably care about at this stage of their lives.

I thought it was one of Flo's sisters who told Benjaminson who Flo's rapist was.

[RanRan79]

i believe the rape went to court and flo actually testified. therefore the rapist would be named as part of the public record. it's also a huge credit to flo that she was willing and able to do this. confronting your assailant can be a wildly traumatizing event, reliving the pain and fear. many victims simply cannot bring themselves to do this. for flo to do so, shows real strength of character [[please note this isn't meant to infer that those that cannot do so are weak or at fault)

Except, according to Maxine, this never happened. The only justice Florence received was when her family went out and whooped his butt. Where Mary got this information from is a big question. I suspect two things:

1) Flo's brother was a cop, so it's possible that at some point Flo may have gone in to speak with the police but for whatever reason the subject was dropped. [[Perhaps she chose not to put herself through any further humiliation that would have come with court proceedings.) Mary might remember this as Flo testifying.

2) Flo lied and said she testified and told Mary the dude was convicted. Perhaps it was her way of taking some control back, even if it was made up. Mary did say that Flo never revealed his name, so Mary wouldn't have known if he was locked up or not.

But Maxine was adamant that the trash who raped Flo didn't get anything other than a beat down.

Btw, even if Flo did go to court, it would have been a case involving a minor, at which point her name would not be in a public record. The rapist, being of age, would have been public, but not his victim.

[marybrewster]

Raynoma is and was disgusting for that one. I wonder if she ever apologized to Diana and Rhonda about that.

My biggest issue with Dreamgirl was Mary's disclosures of Diana's relationships. Because the relationship with Gordy had a huge impact on the group, that was inevitable to be written about. But whatever Diana was up to with Smokey, with Brian Holland, with that White dude from the east coast, that was not Mary's business to tell, and if I were Diana I would be pissed about that and would have let Mary know it.

Mary also needed to take some accountability. Writing that book, especially knowing how Diana is, Mary knew it could cause issues between them, perhaps irreparably. She shows up at Diana's show with Turkessa and then feels some type of way when Diana is like "Bitch please". She couldn't have been that dumb. And I don't blame Diana at all for ghosting Mary for revealing her private life.

Let's be real, the story of Mary Wilson would probably have only done marginally well had she left out Diana's behavior and Flo's issues. Had Mary written about her own exploits during the 60s, in addition to the issues within the group and so forth, she would have still had a bestseller on her hands and she didn't need to dip into Diana's love life to do it. Yet still, in light of further information, we know Mary didn't include everything she could have about Diana's love life. Not one mention of Diana and Eddie in her book.

The story of Mary bringing Turkessa to a Diana concert; that's always given me a chuckle. Wasn't that when Mary parked around the corner then traipsed through the bushes with a twig in her wig to get to the red carpet? I think the quote was "A tear fell down Turkessa's cheek; all she wanted to do was see her Godmommy Diane". Mary sure could tell a whopper, honey!

[reese]

What the heck did Brenda Lee have to say about Diana Ross? Same for Glen? I haven't read their books. Wouldn't have even thought Diana would be a topic for either of them.

Anyway, thanks for the compliment Reese!

Diana was always letting these stories hang in the air. One can take the high road and still acknowledge the issue on the table. Now I would never suggest that Diana go public every single time someone had something to say, but I would think when you really cared about someone, as we assume she did care for Mary, if she read Dreamgirl [[I've heard she didn't, but I've never believed it for a second), to read it and think "That's Mary's opinion" rather than "I didn't mean it that way" or even "I had nothing to do with that, it was Berry!", it points to a bigger issue with her that she just didn't get how her actions impacted other people.

It's like the bully who looks back at him/herself and thinks the wedgies, toilet swirlies, and crude nicknames was all in good fun, not realizing that those things made kids want to end their own lives, or gave them complexes when dealing with other people going forward. Diana looks back and sees herself and the fun she was having. If Mary was unhappy it was all Mary's fault. I'm guessing.:cool:

As I recall, Brenda spoke about performing at the same Billboard convention as the Supremes and wrote that while Mary and Flo were nice, Diana wasn't.

I haven't read his book in a while. But I believe Glen said how impressed he was when they worked on SHINDIG! together and he didn't know why people talked badly about her.

[reese]

I didn't realize Smokey had been duped. I just assumed that he decided to talk about 60 year old stuff that neither he nor Diana probably care about at this stage of their lives.

I thought it was one of Flo's sisters who told Benjaminson who Flo's rapist was.

I just looked in the book and he said it was a niece.

[jobeterob]

The story of Mary bringing Turkessa to a Diana concert; that's always given me a chuckle. Wasn't that when Mary parked around the corner then traipsed through the bushes with a twig in her wig to get to the red carpet? I think the quote was "A tear fell down Turkessa's cheek; all she wanted to do was see her Godmommy Diane". Mary sure could tell a whopper, honey!

You have a rhymy smiley way with words that dig a little, lol

But I think the “twig in the wig” is from Motown 25. In order to make an entrance where they would be recognized, I think Cindy’s husband got them to cut through some bushes and appear in a certain spot while he yelled “Look it’s a couple of the Supremes!”

[Ollie9]

Yup, if Mary was trying to win the big one, all she had to do was expose that nugget.

Very true. If Diana hadn’t acted indifferent when Mary first informed her of plans for a book its focus might have been quite different.
It seems these women made a point of never taking time out in their oh so busy lives to have a professional discussion about anything of importance ever. You couldn’t make it up.

[RanRan79]

The story of Mary bringing Turkessa to a Diana concert; that's always given me a chuckle. Wasn't that when Mary parked around the corner then traipsed through the bushes with a twig in her wig to get to the red carpet? I think the quote was "A tear fell down Turkessa's cheek; all she wanted to do was see her Godmommy Diane". Mary sure could tell a whopper, honey!

Lol No, that was Motown 25, and was a JRT story. I have no doubt that Mary and Cindy may have had to endure the humiliation of some kind of second class Motown citizenship that night, forcing them to go some round about way to get to the red carpet, but I've never believed that two former Supremes- especially Mary and Cindy- would squeeze through bushes in their finery to do it.

The Turkessa episode was during the Working Overtime tour, I think.

[RanRan79]

As I recall, Brenda spoke about performing at the same Billboard convention as the Supremes and wrote that while Mary and Flo were nice, Diana wasn't.

I haven't read his book in a while. But I believe Glen said how impressed he was when they worked on SHINDIG! together and he didn't know why people talked badly about her.

Just goes to show that not everyone's experience with any particular person is the same.

[RanRan79]

I just looked in the book and he said it was a niece.

Yeah, that's my fault. If Reese said it was a niece, I'm the idiot for questioning our human Supremes Encyclopedia. Lesson learned.

Hey, if you ever do take my suggestion and pile all of your Supremes knowledge into a book, may I suggest The Supremes Encyclopedia as a title?:cool:

[RanRan79]

Very true. If Diana hadn’t acted indifferent when Mary first informed her of plans for a book its focus might have been quite different.
It seems these women made a point of never taking time out in their oh so busy lives to have a professional discussion about anything of importance ever. You couldn’t make it up.

That's a good point too. Unfortunately, I think if Diana had to go down memory lane with Mary, they very well would have ended up confronting certain issues, including Florence, and I'm betting Diana was extremely uncomfortable with that.

It appears that Diana had a habit of dismissing Mary whenever she felt like it, and then feels blindsided when Mary decides to do what Mary decides to do.

Ultimately, this was not a conventional friendship. These were basically two family members with completely different lives, moving in different directions, who couldn't deny their need to reconnect on occasion. Like a lot of relatives, they gather together for a quick meal or a party, maybe a short phone call or visit, but as Diana once said, they don't talk about "the heart". Friends get into this kind of stuff. Friends communicate. Mary and Diana were no longer friends. Hadn't been friends in a very long time. But they were forever bonded together, and that was something they couldn't shake loose. [[See what I did there?:cool:)

[reese]

The story of Mary bringing Turkessa to a Diana concert; that's always given me a chuckle. Wasn't that when Mary parked around the corner then traipsed through the bushes with a twig in her wig to get to the red carpet? I think the quote was "A tear fell down Turkessa's cheek; all she wanted to do was see her Godmommy Diane". Mary sure could tell a whopper, honey!


J. Randy wrote that Mary wanted to attend Diana's 1981 Forum concert but couldn't get tickets from Diana's office. A friend secured tickets from director Steve Binder's office for Mary and some other friends. When they arrived at the Forum, they didn't have a VIP parking pass and had to park in a Holiday Inn lot several thousand feet away. Supposedly, to get to the Forum, Mary and friends had to use a shortcut and "traipse through weeds and bushes."

As Ran Ran noted, the incident with Mary and Turkessa not being received backstage happened at the Universal Ampitheatre during Diana's Workin' Overtime engagement in 1989.

[reese]

Yeah, that's my fault. If Reese said it was a niece, I'm the idiot for questioning our human Supremes Encyclopedia. Lesson learned.

Hey, if you ever do take my suggestion and pile all of your Supremes knowledge into a book, may I suggest The Supremes Encyclopedia as a title?:cool:

I'll give you credit for the title. :D

[sup_fan]

That's a good point too. Unfortunately, I think if Diana had to go down memory lane with Mary, they very well would have ended up confronting certain issues, including Florence, and I'm betting Diana was extremely uncomfortable with that.

It appears that Diana had a habit of dismissing Mary whenever she felt like it, and then feels blindsided when Mary decides to do what Mary decides to do.

Ultimately, this was not a conventional friendship. These were basically two family members with completely different lives, moving in different directions, who couldn't deny their need to reconnect on occasion. Like a lot of relatives, they gather together for a quick meal or a party, maybe a short phone call or visit, but as Diana once said, they don't talk about "the heart". Friends get into this kind of stuff. Friends communicate. Mary and Diana were no longer friends. Hadn't been friends in a very long time. But they were forever bonded together, and that was something they couldn't shake loose. [[See what I did there?:cool:)

how many of us have friendships the endure for 30, 40 years? how many of you have extremely close friendships with people from jr high? people come and go from your life. sure it's possible - i have a handful that i'm still quite close with. some where we'd drifted apart over the years and then reconnected. but it's more typical that people grow apart. and this isn't the result of some heinous act one of the people committed. it's just that as you grow up, you go down different paths, your personalities diverge.

we've talked about how different the 3 supremes were from each other, in terms of personality. so even though they had similar careers, it's quite possible that D and M just grew apart. they liked different things, had different points of view, different focuses. that could very well explain why they might have had less in common.

also they were just busy - they were heavily involved in their own careers, marriages, motherhood, their own personal issues. it seems that both remained relatively supportive of the other during their 70s careers. Diana would attend and support the girls, there are stories of mary attending shows too. diana was immediately there at her opening.

[marybrewster]

You have a rhymy smiley way with words that dig a little, lol

But I think the “twig in the wig” is from Motown 25. In order to make an entrance where they would be recognized, I think Cindy’s husband got them to cut through some bushes and appear in a certain spot while he yelled “Look it’s a couple of the Supremes!”

I love Mary, and her flair for the dramatic. Check her out singing "Ave Maria" sometime, LOL!

There's a little bit of ridiculousness that some of these stories are still being told 30, 40, 50, and 60 years later. Sometimes you gotta spicen them up a bit to keep them relevant and interesting. But like anyone else, sometimes they change over the years, like "telephone"! Oh well. At least I didn't say Diana pushed Mary into the bushes. ;)

[marybrewster]

J. Randy wrote that Mary wanted to attend Diana's 1981 Forum concert but couldn't get tickets from Diana's office. A friend secured tickets from director Steve Binder's office for Mary and some other friends. When they arrived at the Forum, they didn't have a VIP parking pass and had to park in a Holiday Inn lot several thousand feet away. Supposedly, to get to the Forum, Mary and friends had to use a shortcut and "traipse through weeds and bushes."

As Ran Ran noted, the incident with Mary and Turkessa not being received backstage happened at the Universal Ampitheatre during Diana's Workin' Overtime engagement in 1989.

Thank you reese.

[sup_fan]

also i'm still laughing to myself over the "twig in the wig" line!! lol

if i remember the story correctly, it wasn't totally that motown was giving them the shaft. it was that they parked in a parking lot and then wanted to go walk the red carpet. in order to do so, they had to walk around the building and apparently traipse through some bushes. when they approached the red carpet, no one really seemed to notice them until one of their escorts hollered out "look! it's two of the supremes!!"

my guess is motown had planned who would be arriving by chauffer-driven car to the red carpet point. usually those are not just open for any random person to drive up to. and my guess is M and C didn't make the cut to be part of that.

the story also made is sound like mary was NOT waiting for cindy lol and cindy had to sort of hurry along to catch up. i can see mary not worrying 1 bit if cindy had made it through the landscape lol. mary was a shark when it came to PR - she could smell a whiff of Entertainment Tonight crew from about 500 miles away, like a shark can smell 1 tiny drop of blood on the other side of the ocean

[lucky2012]

Lol. These posts about Mary's flair for the dramatic are very entertaining and made me snort my coffee a few times. :D

[RanRan79]

how many of us have friendships the endure for 30, 40 years? how many of you have extremely close friendships with people from jr high? people come and go from your life. sure it's possible - i have a handful that i'm still quite close with. some where we'd drifted apart over the years and then reconnected. but it's more typical that people grow apart. and this isn't the result of some heinous act one of the people committed. it's just that as you grow up, you go down different paths, your personalities diverge.

we've talked about how different the 3 supremes were from each other, in terms of personality. so even though they had similar careers, it's quite possible that D and M just grew apart. they liked different things, had different points of view, different focuses. that could very well explain why they might have had less in common.

also they were just busy - they were heavily involved in their own careers, marriages, motherhood, their own personal issues. it seems that both remained relatively supportive of the other during their 70s careers. Diana would attend and support the girls, there are stories of mary attending shows too. diana was immediately there at her opening.

Quite a few people I know have had friendships that lasted that long, from that far back. It's not exactly unusual. However, your point is still valid and is connected to mine. I think it's entirely possible that had the Primettes gone the way of hundreds of other local teen groups [[getting together to rehearse, doing talent shows, parties and then ultimately disbanding without any real success) Mary and Diana may have continued to be friends up through the end of high school. I could see them going to college and losing touch. I could also see them staying around the neighborhood and simply growing apart like a lot of friends end up doing.

Mary and Diana never had the "luxury" of growing apart and remaining a memory for the other. The Supremes made them forever linked to the world. They couldn't escape it. Plus, because they did spend so much time together when the Supremes became a phenomenon, Flo, Diana and Mary were far beyond just friends. Even their families were hooked up together. So in real life this was never going to be a normal friends grow apart type of situation. Like I said before, they were like family.

It's like the cousins who grow up together, spending time at Big Mama's, having fun, creating memories, but once they are older, adults, different interests, different locations, different lives, there isn't much togetherness. The bond is the past, not necessarily the present. That's what Diana and Mary had, a bond of the past.

[RanRan79]

I love Mary, and her flair for the dramatic. Check her out singing "Ave Maria" sometime, LOL!

There's a little bit of ridiculousness that some of these stories are still being told 30, 40, 50, and 60 years later. Sometimes you gotta spicen them up a bit to keep them relevant and interesting. But like anyone else, sometimes they change over the years, like "telephone"! Oh well. At least I didn't say Diana pushed Mary into the bushes. ;)

One thing I don't miss about Mary is her Florence impression on "Ave Maria". I can imagine Flo hearing that and going "If this heifer don't stop...I don't sound like that!":cool:

Supposedly there is a leaked early draft of Supreme Faith where Mary writes: "Diana ran out of the auditorium, covered in a huge mink, and as if we were in a Detroit Lions game, shoulder checked me into the evergreens planted outside. As quick as she appeared, she disappeared back into the auditorium. As usual, we never spoke about this. The next time I saw her was during the show when she came over to sing 'Reach Out and Touch'. We stood together, one of my best friends, a sister, I had known since we were kids and sang 'Reach out and touch somebody's hand, make this world a better place if you can.' The crowd went wild. No one was the wiser that an hour before, I was picking twigs out of my wig from where my friend tossed me into the bushes."

The editor cut it for accuracy reasons.:cool:

[sup_fan]

Quite a few people I know have had friendships that lasted that long, from that far back. It's not exactly unusual. However, your point is still valid and is connected to mine. I think it's entirely possible that had the Primettes gone the way of hundreds of other local teen groups [[getting together to rehearse, doing talent shows, parties and then ultimately disbanding without any real success) Mary and Diana may have continued to be friends up through the end of high school. I could see them going to college and losing touch. I could also see them staying around the neighborhood and simply growing apart like a lot of friends end up doing.

Mary and Diana never had the "luxury" of growing apart and remaining a memory for the other. The Supremes made them forever linked to the world. They couldn't escape it. Plus, because they did spend so much time together when the Supremes became a phenomenon, Flo, Diana and Mary were far beyond just friends. Even their families were hooked up together. So in real life this was never going to be a normal friends grow apart type of situation. Like I said before, they were like family.

It's like the cousins who grow up together, spending time at Big Mama's, having fun, creating memories, but once they are older, adults, different interests, different locations, different lives, there isn't much togetherness. The bond is the past, not necessarily the present. That's what Diana and Mary had, a bond of the past.

exactly - this isn't to say it's impossible to have decades-long friendships. it's just saying that as time goes on, people evolve change and mature. and those paths of change might mean that people that used to be the best of friends just don't have as much in common or shared any more. it's not that something bad happened, or that they hate each other. just that their paths are divergent.

[sup_fan]

One thing I don't miss about Mary is her Florence impression on "Ave Maria". I can imagine Flo hearing that and going "If this heifer don't stop...I don't sound like that!":cool:

Supposedly there is a leaked early draft of Supreme Faith where Mary writes: "Diana ran out of the auditorium, covered in a huge mink, and as if we were in a Detroit Lions game, shoulder checked me into the evergreens planted outside. As quick as she appeared, she disappeared back into the auditorium. As usual, we never spoke about this. The next time I saw her was during the show when she came over to sing 'Reach Out and Touch'. We stood together, one of my best friends, a sister, I had known since we were kids and sang 'Reach out and touch somebody's hand, make this world a better place if you can.' The crowd went wild. No one was the wiser that an hour before, I was picking twigs out of my wig from where my friend tossed me into the bushes."

The editor cut it for accuracy reasons.:cool:

hahaha yes!! that ave maria impression was SOOOOOOOO painful lol.

[RanRan79]

also i'm still laughing to myself over the "twig in the wig" line!! lol

if i remember the story correctly, it wasn't totally that motown was giving them the shaft. it was that they parked in a parking lot and then wanted to go walk the red carpet. in order to do so, they had to walk around the building and apparently traipse through some bushes. when they approached the red carpet, no one really seemed to notice them until one of their escorts hollered out "look! it's two of the supremes!!"

my guess is motown had planned who would be arriving by chauffer-driven car to the red carpet point. usually those are not just open for any random person to drive up to. and my guess is M and C didn't make the cut to be part of that.

the story also made is sound like mary was NOT waiting for cindy lol and cindy had to sort of hurry along to catch up. i can see mary not worrying 1 bit if cindy had made it through the landscape lol. mary was a shark when it came to PR - she could smell a whiff of Entertainment Tonight crew from about 500 miles away, like a shark can smell 1 tiny drop of blood on the other side of the ocean

Whatever the situation, Mary and Cindy should never have been treated as less than the stars that they were. Motown had a bad habit of doing people this way. Interesting that there was probably no one at the show who was there to see Tito Jackson, but I bet there was never a question about him getting the same star treatment as his brothers. [[And I don't say that to shade Tito. He's actually one of my favorite Jacksons.)

Mary never missed an opportunity to get in front of a camera. She was a born ham, which makes her inability to make her career take off beyond what it ultimately was, such a shame. She was born to entertain.

Too bad we didn't get more Mary Youtube videos like the last one she did. I find that when Mary is being interviewed two bad things happen: 1) The interviewer always asks the same five questions as every other interviewer before them, and 2) Mary is all over the place, jumping from one memory to another, talking at rapid speed because she's pressed for time. I'm betting the YT vids might have allowed her to go into stuff she doesn't often get asked about and would have allowed her time to tell it at a normal speed and concentrate on what she's saying, versus constantly thinking "how much time do I have?".

[RanRan79]

hahaha yes!! that ave maria impression was SOOOOOOOO painful lol.

Yes it was!!:D

Would've been interesting to hear what Flo actually did sound like singing the song.

[Spreadinglove21]

The new girl group oral history book But Will You Love Me Tomorrow has a couple of stories that are new [[to me at least) of Ross behaving badly back in the day.

One of the Dixie Cups recalls on the Dick Clark tour in 1964 that backstage one night shortly before the Supremes were to go on stage, Diana said something "nasty" to Flo and next thing they were having a fist fight with Mary begging them to stop as they were about to go on stage.

Also on Dick Clark tour, there were a few occasions when they had an afternoon off and could go shopping in the town they were in. Diana would split off from the other girls and shop alone. Later the girls would back at hotel share what they bought. Diana rarely joined those sessions but when she did, if she found out one of the other girls had bought something similar to what she bought Diana would throw a tantrum and throw away or destroy the item she bought that the same girl had also bought.

LaLa Brooks talked about clashing with Diana on that tour as well. Apparently the last straw was when Diana made fun of the condition of the Crystals' shoes they wore when they performed and LaLa decided to fight her. Diana sent Flo and her mother to where they were supposed to fight. LaLa noted that Diana's mother looked ashamed and embarrassed by the way her daughter behaved on the tour, and also decided she wasn't going to fight Flo as Flo was bigger than her and unlike Diana Flo was genuinely "Detroit-Detroit tough".

[marybrewster]

I think it boils down to perception:

Diana Ross saw Mary Wilson as a former coworker that shared a 10 year working relationship. Mary Wilson saw Diana Ross as a sister that shared a bond that lasted a lifetime.

Diana's Supremes career is one small ripple in a giant pond. Mary Wilson was THE Supreme, a giant ripple in a small pond.

[Ollie9]

The new girl group oral history book But Will You Love Me Tomorrow has a couple of stories that are new [[to me at least) of Ross behaving badly back in the day.

One of the Dixie Cups recalls on the Dick Clark tour in 1964 that backstage one night shortly before the Supremes were to go on stage, Diana said something "nasty" to Flo and next thing they were having a fist fight with Mary begging them to stop as they were about to go on stage.

Also on Dick Clark tour, there were a few occasions when they had an afternoon off and could go shopping in the town they were in. Diana would split off from the other girls and shop alone. Later the girls would back at hotel share what they bought. Diana rarely joined those sessions but when she did, if she found out one of the other girls had bought something similar to what she bought Diana would throw a tantrum and throw away or destroy the item she bought that the same girl had also bought.

LaLa Brooks talked about clashing with Diana on that tour as well. Apparently the last straw was when Diana made fun of the condition of the Crystals' shoes they wore when they performed and LaLa decided to fight her. Diana sent Flo and her mother to where they were supposed to fight. LaLa noted that Diana's mother looked ashamed and embarrassed by the way her daughter behaved on the tour, and also decided she wasn't going to fight Flo as Flo was bigger than her and unlike Diana Flo was genuinely "Detroit-Detroit tough".

Don’t hear anyone snorting coffee about that one. :rolleyes:

[marybrewster]

The new girl group oral history book But Will You Love Me Tomorrow has a couple of stories that are new [[to me at least) of Ross behaving badly back in the day.

One of the Dixie Cups recalls on the Dick Clark tour in 1964 that backstage one night shortly before the Supremes were to go on stage, Diana said something "nasty" to Flo and next thing they were having a fist fight with Mary begging them to stop as they were about to go on stage.

Also on Dick Clark tour, there were a few occasions when they had an afternoon off and could go shopping in the town they were in. Diana would split off from the other girls and shop alone. Later the girls would back at hotel share what they bought. Diana rarely joined those sessions but when she did, if she found out one of the other girls had bought something similar to what she bought Diana would throw a tantrum and throw away or destroy the item she bought that the same girl had also bought.

LaLa Brooks talked about clashing with Diana on that tour as well. Apparently the last straw was when Diana made fun of the condition of the Crystals' shoes they wore when they performed and LaLa decided to fight her. Diana sent Flo and her mother to where they were supposed to fight. LaLa noted that Diana's mother looked ashamed and embarrassed by the way her daughter behaved on the tour, and also decided she wasn't going to fight Flo as Flo was bigger than her and unlike Diana Flo was genuinely "Detroit-Detroit tough".

People remember what they want to remember. Are we to believe that Diana and Flo were throwing punches backstage? With Dick Clark hanging around? Let's be honest, Flo looked like she had a good right hook and it would take about two hits; one hitting Diana, and one Diana hitting the floor.

[jobeterob]

also i'm still laughing to myself over the "twig in the wig" line!! lol

if i remember the story correctly, it wasn't totally that motown was giving them the shaft. it was that they parked in a parking lot and then wanted to go walk the red carpet. in order to do so, they had to walk around the building and apparently traipse through some bushes. when they approached the red carpet, no one really seemed to notice them until one of their escorts hollered out "look! it's two of the supremes!!"

my guess is motown had planned who would be arriving by chauffer-driven car to the red carpet point. usually those are not just open for any random person to drive up to. and my guess is M and C didn't make the cut to be part of that.

the story also made is sound like mary was NOT waiting for cindy lol and cindy had to sort of hurry along to catch up. i can see mary not worrying 1 bit if cindy had made it through the landscape lol. mary was a shark when it came to PR - she could smell a whiff of Entertainment Tonight crew from about 500 miles away, like a shark can smell 1 tiny drop of blood on the other side of the ocean

Mary was at the game a long time and she must have known she’d have to make her own opportunities at a certain stage - so she went for ambassadorships, political work, author, inspirational lectures, dress exhibits. At some stage, just like Diana knows now, Mary knew there would be no big hits.

[sup_fan]

The new girl group oral history book But Will You Love Me Tomorrow has a couple of stories that are new [[to me at least) of Ross behaving badly back in the day.

One of the Dixie Cups recalls on the Dick Clark tour in 1964 that backstage one night shortly before the Supremes were to go on stage, Diana said something "nasty" to Flo and next thing they were having a fist fight with Mary begging them to stop as they were about to go on stage.

Also on Dick Clark tour, there were a few occasions when they had an afternoon off and could go shopping in the town they were in. Diana would split off from the other girls and shop alone. Later the girls would back at hotel share what they bought. Diana rarely joined those sessions but when she did, if she found out one of the other girls had bought something similar to what she bought Diana would throw a tantrum and throw away or destroy the item she bought that the same girl had also bought.

LaLa Brooks talked about clashing with Diana on that tour as well. Apparently the last straw was when Diana made fun of the condition of the Crystals' shoes they wore when they performed and LaLa decided to fight her. Diana sent Flo and her mother to where they were supposed to fight. LaLa noted that Diana's mother looked ashamed and embarrassed by the way her daughter behaved on the tour, and also decided she wasn't going to fight Flo as Flo was bigger than her and unlike Diana Flo was genuinely "Detroit-Detroit tough".

look - i'm assuming every single one of these is probably correct. 19 year old girls are hideous creatures lol sure there are some girls that are just sugar and sweet. I'd imagine actually that Cindy would be one of these. but i don't think Jean or mary or diana or lynda or flo or susaye would be in the sugar category. perhaps Scherrie.

and the same goes for every girl group on those tours. i'm sure Barbara Harris of the toys once said something catty about another girl. and you know Patricia from the Crystals could be a real pain in the ass. and mary even mentions how lots of people didn't like Lala.

the point is, every one of these stories are just sorority house hijinks. nothing shocking, nothing unusual and nothing out of the ordinary. and for each of these stories, there's a story of the girls doubling over in laughter at something, having fun, relaxing and just chilling out together.

[lucky2012]

The new girl group oral history book But Will You Love Me Tomorrow has a couple of stories that are new [[to me at least) of Ross behaving badly back in the day.

One of the Dixie Cups recalls on the Dick Clark tour in 1964 that backstage one night shortly before the Supremes were to go on stage, Diana said something "nasty" to Flo and next thing they were having a fist fight with Mary begging them to stop as they were about to go on stage.

Also on Dick Clark tour, there were a few occasions when they had an afternoon off and could go shopping in the town they were in. Diana would split off from the other girls and shop alone. Later the girls would back at hotel share what they bought. Diana rarely joined those sessions but when she did, if she found out one of the other girls had bought something similar to what she bought Diana would throw a tantrum and throw away or destroy the item she bought that the same girl had also bought.

LaLa Brooks talked about clashing with Diana on that tour as well. Apparently the last straw was when Diana made fun of the condition of the Crystals' shoes they wore when they performed and LaLa decided to fight her. Diana sent Flo and her mother to where they were supposed to fight. LaLa noted that Diana's mother looked ashamed and embarrassed by the way her daughter behaved on the tour, and also decided she wasn't going to fight Flo as Flo was bigger than her and unlike Diana Flo was genuinely "Detroit-Detroit tough".

The Girl Group era is one of my favorites. I will want to read this book, despite the memory limitations of the "oral histories".

Originally Posted by marybrewsterhttps://soulfuldetroit.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png [[https://soulfuldetroit.com/showthread.php?p=778888#post778888)I love Mary, and her flair for the dramatic...There's a little bit of ridiculousness that some of these stories are still being told 30, 40, 50, and 60 years later. Sometimes you gotta spicen them up a bit to keep them relevant and interesting. But like anyone else, sometimes they change over the years, like "telephone"! Oh well. At least I didn't say Diana pushed Mary into the bushes. ;)People remember what they want to remember. Are we to believe that Diana and Flo were throwing punches backstage? With Dick Clark hanging around? Let's be honest, Flo looked like she had a good right hook and it would take about two hits; one hitting Diana, and one Diana hitting the floor.

:);):rolleyes::p:cool:

[floyjoy678]

The new girl group oral history book But Will You Love Me Tomorrow has a couple of stories that are new [[to me at least) of Ross behaving badly back in the day.

One of the Dixie Cups recalls on the Dick Clark tour in 1964 that backstage one night shortly before the Supremes were to go on stage, Diana said something "nasty" to Flo and next thing they were having a fist fight with Mary begging them to stop as they were about to go on stage.

Also on Dick Clark tour, there were a few occasions when they had an afternoon off and could go shopping in the town they were in. Diana would split off from the other girls and shop alone. Later the girls would back at hotel share what they bought. Diana rarely joined those sessions but when she did, if she found out one of the other girls had bought something similar to what she bought Diana would throw a tantrum and throw away or destroy the item she bought that the same girl had also bought.

LaLa Brooks talked about clashing with Diana on that tour as well. Apparently the last straw was when Diana made fun of the condition of the Crystals' shoes they wore when they performed and LaLa decided to fight her. Diana sent Flo and her mother to where they were supposed to fight. LaLa noted that Diana's mother looked ashamed and embarrassed by the way her daughter behaved on the tour, and also decided she wasn't going to fight Flo as Flo was bigger than her and unlike Diana Flo was genuinely "Detroit-Detroit tough".

I do remember reading that Diana would get mouthy often with other girls on these tours because she knew Flo would come to her defense if it escalated.

[RanRan79]

I believe Mary's version of events involving the conflict between Diana and Lala, and Mary didn't paint the picture of a Diana who was afraid of Lala. Flo getting involved probably had more to do with being sick of Lala than feeling the need to protect Diana from her. Of course that's just my opinion about something I didn't witness. I still believe Mary's story vs Lala's.

I don't believe for one moment that Diana and Flo scrapped on that tour and it took all this time for us to hear about it. The lady could be mixing up girl group singers.

I agree with Sup. A lot of this stuff was just young kid crap. These same kinds of arguments and fights were happening at school and in the neighborhood and at parties because kids will be kids, even young adults. What I find interesting is that my gut tells me the interviewer asked specific questions about Diana Ross. Whether or not all he/she received in return were horror stories about the woman, I guess we'll never know. But as has been pointed out before, when you're on top, people will look for opportunities to bring you down a peg or two.

I'm reminded of a difference in memory between two girl group members. I believe it was the Chiffons. One Chiffon remembered Diana being a loner and distancing herself from all the other girls as if she was better than they were. The other Chiffon basically said the lady was lying, Diana wasn't like that at all. It never happened. Now, I could have all the details of this story completely screwed up [[waiting for Reese to enter the chat...:p), but the point is clear: one Chiffon had this negative memory of Diana as it related to the others, while the other Chiffon basically called the memory bunk.

[BayouMotownMan]

I think it boils down to perception:

Diana Ross saw Mary Wilson as a former coworker that shared a 10 year working relationship. Mary Wilson saw Diana Ross as a sister that shared a bond that lasted a lifetime.

Diana's Supremes career is one small ripple in a giant pond. Mary Wilson was THE Supreme, a giant ripple in a small pond.


Very good observation. Mary put more into the relationship than Diana did. It's like in high school, having a best buddy. After graduation you eventually take different roads.

I think Diana Ross is a lonely person. You'd always see Mary out on the town with different celeb friends, but you rarely see Diana Ross doing this. She had no real friends in show business. For a while she and Cher were pals, but Gene Simmons put an end to that but double dating them. Cher did make the observation that Diana's best friends were her kids. That is quite accurate.

Diana is only comfortable around her kids and extended family where she can be "mom" or "Diane." I think the dissolution and death of Arne Naess put her into a depression of sorts where she has a protective wall around her and only those people are allowed in.

[khansperac]

“Show business” friends lol. I’d rather be alone.

[RanRan79]

There's something to be said about having a small circle. I don't know that Diana is lonely simply because we don't see her out and about with the girls, but I do think it's quite possible she is much more comfortable these days being "Diane" rather than "Diana", unless she is onstage. I can imagine too that all those years she spent traveling the world, performing for millions, focusing on her career, she missed out on some of the precious stuff. At this point that's probably her focus. She's done the "out on the town", lady of the world stuff. Now "Mom", "Grandma", "Auntie" is where it's at for her.

[reese]

I'm reminded of a difference in memory between two girl group members. I believe it was the Chiffons. One Chiffon remembered Diana being a loner and distancing herself from all the other girls as if she was better than they were. The other Chiffon basically said the lady was lying, Diana wasn't like that at all. It never happened. Now, I could have all the details of this story completely screwed up [[waiting for Reese to enter the chat...:p), but the point is clear: one Chiffon had this negative memory of Diana as it related to the others, while the other Chiffon basically called the memory bunk.

I do remember a difference in memory like this, although for some reason, I'm thinking it might have been the Crystals but I don't know for sure.

Plus some memories tend to fade or get exaggerated over time. I remember one girl group member talking about being with them on [I believe] the Dick Clark tour and Flo confiding in her that Berry was already making moves to take Diana out of the group and swearing her to secrecy. It seems kind of early for that but I can't say it wasn't true.

[midnightman]

The new girl group oral history book But Will You Love Me Tomorrow has a couple of stories that are new [[to me at least) of Ross behaving badly back in the day.

One of the Dixie Cups recalls on the Dick Clark tour in 1964 that backstage one night shortly before the Supremes were to go on stage, Diana said something "nasty" to Flo and next thing they were having a fist fight with Mary begging them to stop as they were about to go on stage.

Also on Dick Clark tour, there were a few occasions when they had an afternoon off and could go shopping in the town they were in. Diana would split off from the other girls and shop alone. Later the girls would back at hotel share what they bought. Diana rarely joined those sessions but when she did, if she found out one of the other girls had bought something similar to what she bought Diana would throw a tantrum and throw away or destroy the item she bought that the same girl had also bought.

LaLa Brooks talked about clashing with Diana on that tour as well. Apparently the last straw was when Diana made fun of the condition of the Crystals' shoes they wore when they performed and LaLa decided to fight her. Diana sent Flo and her mother to where they were supposed to fight. LaLa noted that Diana's mother looked ashamed and embarrassed by the way her daughter behaved on the tour, and also decided she wasn't going to fight Flo as Flo was bigger than her and unlike Diana Flo was genuinely "Detroit-Detroit tough".

Jesus Christ. I wonder what went on in Diana's childhood to make her act the way she does cause holy crap... I do remember she recounted an earlier childhood memory of hearing her mother crying one night while a man, presumably Diana's dad Fred, screaming at her but apparently none of the Ross kids ever ask Ernestine what was happening. The demons Diana carried festered as she began her musical career obviously and just manifested. We know Diana had an intense rivalry with her sister Barbara "Bobbie" Ross so that may have been the catalyst to this. I also read [[I forget which book, maybe Dreamgirl or Ronnie Spector's book that Nay Rob recapped) that Diana and Ronnie Spector butted heads too.

[midnightman]

I believe Mary's version of events involving the conflict between Diana and Lala, and Mary didn't paint the picture of a Diana who was afraid of Lala. Flo getting involved probably had more to do with being sick of Lala than feeling the need to protect Diana from her. Of course that's just my opinion about something I didn't witness. I still believe Mary's story vs Lala's.

I don't believe for one moment that Diana and Flo scrapped on that tour and it took all this time for us to hear about it. The lady could be mixing up girl group singers.

I agree with Sup. A lot of this stuff was just young kid crap. These same kinds of arguments and fights were happening at school and in the neighborhood and at parties because kids will be kids, even young adults. What I find interesting is that my gut tells me the interviewer asked specific questions about Diana Ross. Whether or not all he/she received in return were horror stories about the woman, I guess we'll never know. But as has been pointed out before, when you're on top, people will look for opportunities to bring you down a peg or two.

I'm reminded of a difference in memory between two girl group members. I believe it was the Chiffons. One Chiffon remembered Diana being a loner and distancing herself from all the other girls as if she was better than they were. The other Chiffon basically said the lady was lying, Diana wasn't like that at all. It never happened. Now, I could have all the details of this story completely screwed up [[waiting for Reese to enter the chat...:p), but the point is clear: one Chiffon had this negative memory of Diana as it related to the others, while the other Chiffon basically called the memory bunk.

Hmm interesting.

[midnightman]

Dreamgirl was 1986
Call Her Miss Ross was 1989
Berry, Motown, and Me was 1990
All That Glittered was 1990
Deliver Us From Temptation was 1992
Confessions of a Motown Diva was 1994
To Be Loved was 1994
TEMPTATIONS was 1998

I think it's safe to say Mary kicked open the door for MANY of the Motown books that came after her.

I give that crown to the late Marvin Gaye:
Divided Soul [[1985)

[midnightman]

I think Mary was really the first person to go on record about the fact that Diana could be difficult to deal with. The rumors were already out there. The perception of her as a "bitch" was already a thing. Mary basically just confirmed it, and the confirmation had weight because she was one of the Supremes.

The whole thing was messed up because of their psyches. Mary grew up being someone who buried her feelings in order to keep things from getting out of control. This is something seen quite commonly in the mental health field. So many people suppressing their emotions in order to placate other people. When it came to Diana and even Florence, and probably especially Berry, Mary would choose to swallow her anger and hurt because of where she saw herself on the Supremes totem pole. She only really risked the wrath of Florence when Mary realized that Flo was on her way out anyway. So Mary basically stored up a ton of animosity about things said and done as it related to Diana and it all came tumbling out in a book. I think both she and Diana would have been better served if Mary had gotten in Diana's face and let her know in no uncertain terms that she didn't like it when Diana said...or she didn't like it when Diana did... Perhaps Diana might- might- have thought twice about anything she might do or say that rubbed her friend the wrong way.

On the flip, Diana had no problem letting her feelings out. What she did have a problem with was not acknowledging how her actions or words may have made other people feel. All these years and Diana has never seemed to publicly acknowledge her role in why some people who know her have had issues with her, be it the past or present. I don't believe anyone should spend their lives ruminating over someone else's inability to get over the past, but it does say something about character when you accept accountability. Diana got angry at Mary for Dreamgirl and other stuff, but never once accepted that some of this was her very own fault. Mary is often accused of having a victim mentality. I'd wager Diana also has had one where this issue is concerned. It's always "Everybody's being mean to me and saying bad things about me" rather than acknowledging what might have led up to those things being said or the treatment she's getting.

That's always been my issue with Diana too. Like I have never seen her open up and admit she may have went too far in her youth. Apparently those questions are forbidden to ask.

[midnightman]

Isn't that life, though? Of course money doesn't make people happy, even though we often think it does. Look at Diana. All those stories about her nastiness toward other people, even though she was seemingly sitting on top of the world. And who can forget her drowning her sorrows in alcohol and then getting behind the wheel, putting not only her life but the lives of others in mortal danger.

These people are human and subject to human emotions and flaws and all of that. They all have issues. I don't believe for one moment that Aretha spent every day upset and angry. I still don't believe Gladys is this unhappy person you seem to think she is. Mary was pissed at times, and in many ways rightfully so, but she sure did seem to swing on out of here, on top of the world, hitless but very much loved.

They live life. None of them are perfect. They all have good and bad days. And I'd venture that more often than not, these folks are giving less attention to the negativity we the public seem to think they sit in hour after hour, day after day.

Yeah that was a weird comment. There were times Aretha was a blast to be around and she often DID apologize if she felt she went over the line [[that's exactly what she did with Whitney after their 1988 session for the Through the Storm album). Gladys being unhappy is a new one because Gladys never came off as a bitter person even with the way she felt unwanted at Motown despite her and the Pips' success there. Like you said, Aretha, Gladys and Diana are just human and we shouldn't bolster just their negative traits and let that overshadow what they brought to the music industry and to their fans.

[SatansBlues]

I say we don't know what we don't know. And by this I mean that none of us are privy to the inner workings of Diana's life. For example we have never really heard anything about her relationships with her two sisters or her other family members like nieces and nephews. Nor have we heard any real stories about her current relationships with her former Motown artists like Stevie or Smokey or Martha or even Berry. Heck we don't know what the woman had for dinner tonight or who she had it with. We don't know, what we don't know.

[sup_fan]

Jesus Christ. I wonder what went on in Diana's childhood to make her act the way she does cause holy crap... I do remember she recounted an earlier childhood memory of hearing her mother crying one night while a man, presumably Diana's dad Fred, screaming at her but apparently none of the Ross kids ever ask Ernestine what was happening. The demons Diana carried festered as she began her musical career obviously and just manifested. We know Diana had an intense rivalry with her sister Barbara "Bobbie" Ross so that may have been the catalyst to this. I also read [[I forget which book, maybe Dreamgirl or Ronnie Spector's book that Nay Rob recapped) that Diana and Ronnie Spector butted heads too.

i don't think someone's personality is totally based on nurture. it's also heavily influenced by nature. that's why you often have 2 siblings from the same household with very different personalities and personas.

i think you're making too much of the "demons" of diana ross. and it's quite possible some of the "demons" of Flo were just her personality too. I've know a zillion people that have huge mood swings too and were never sexually assaulted. maybe the attack simply increased what was already there.

you could make the argument that diana carried a considerable amount of insecurities with her, probably through much of her life. according to the books out there, diana's father definitely loved her and i've not read anything where he was violent like Joe Jackson. but he was known to be emotionally withdrawn. he held things in. combine that with a personality like Diana's that is craving applause and approval and you could see why there where disconnects.

[sup_fan]

randy's last book does a wonderful job of examining the possible influences of Diana's parents. of course he's not a trained psychologist but i think it's quite justified.

Diana's mother was apparently very warm and openly loving. she was hugely supportive of all her children and their interests. and of diana, she was her biggest cheerleader. she had a very nurturing and mothering persona

Diana's father was very practical, very rational. he knew the world of struggle as a black man in the 1930 - 50s. to him, education was THE gateway to a life of success. it would be the 1 ticket to having financial independence and to achieve the american dream. so studying, math, science, etc would have been areas he felt were most important. music and arts and etc would have been probably superfluous to his and his vision of how to succeed. he sacrificed by working multiple jobs in order to provide.

Diana is really a perfect merging of these. to both her children and her audience, she's an outstanding mother - caring and wanting what's best for them. off stage and in the business world, she's the definition of practical and rational, with little need for emotion or feelings. you work as hard as you can and do the very best you can, and you will most likely succeed.

[RanRan79]

That's always been my issue with Diana too. Like I have never seen her open up and admit she may have went too far in her youth. Apparently those questions are forbidden to ask.

I think this might be why we really don't get Diana interviews these days. I think a lot more interviewers are willing to push the envelope to get a story and Diana is not going to put herself in a position to address anything about Flo or Mary, in particular. And look, my position isn't that we the public are owed anything from Diana, as if she has to answer to us for anything she said or did 50 years ago. I'm just saying that as an admirer of the lady, I would appreciate her addressing her own actions, rather than addressing the actions of others. And it would be good to add further insight into who she was then, and who she is now.

[RanRan79]

Jesus Christ. I wonder what went on in Diana's childhood to make her act the way she does cause holy crap... I do remember she recounted an earlier childhood memory of hearing her mother crying one night while a man, presumably Diana's dad Fred, screaming at her but apparently none of the Ross kids ever ask Ernestine what was happening. The demons Diana carried festered as she began her musical career obviously and just manifested. We know Diana had an intense rivalry with her sister Barbara "Bobbie" Ross so that may have been the catalyst to this. I also read [[I forget which book, maybe Dreamgirl or Ronnie Spector's book that Nay Rob recapped) that Diana and Ronnie Spector butted heads too.

I've never heard of Diana and Ronnie having any issues. That's a new one for me.

That passage in Diana's book about her mother hiding in the closet and telling Diana to go away so Ernestine isn't found is probably the most revealing thing about any negative part of Diana's childhood. She wrote it as if she wasn't sure if it was a dream or a memory, but I don't buy that. If she thought it was a dream, she wouldn't have bothered to include it. I'm sure she's had worst dreams than her mother hiding in the closet from her father. So there was definitely something going on in the Ross household that apparently doesn't get talked about publicly [[which I'm okay with, that's Ross family business, not mine).

We are all shaped by our childhoods. That's why children should be protected at all costs, nurtured, loved, because childhood ends up being the foundation the adulthood is planted on. Diana's childhood daddy issues led her to being Berry Gordy's muse, all the while taking Gordy's abuse so that she could revel in his approval. Crazy, but one must ponder would Diana have ever shot for the moon if her father had been more supportive of her initially. I think she used her father's attitude toward her dreams as fuel for her success.

[Ollie9]

you work as hard as you can and do the very best you can, and you will most likely succeed.

Luck and timing play a huge part as well. Not everyone has a BG in their corner, no matter how hard working.

[sup_fan]

Luck and timing play a huge part as well. Not everyone has a BG in their corner, no matter how hard working.

yeah but "success" doesn't have to be defined as world conquest. and my comment would apply to any scenario. had Diana followed Daddy's request she would have worked hard at Cass on her studies, gotten better grades. then probably go to Wayne State which was affordable and accessible there in Detroit. she could continued to study fashion, millenary, design, sewing and construction. since she was pretty naturally talented in this area and lord knows she was competitive lol she'd probably have pushed herself for straight As or dean's list. upon graduating and getting a job somewhere in this field, she would have been a passionate worker. in early, staying late, pushing herself. and she would have eventually had some promotions and earned more money. gotten married, had kids, etc.

that could certainly have been a success had she not made it in music and entertainment. note that she isn't whisked away to Rome in my story, a la Mahogany.

not trying to say luck and timing are never a component. you're absolutely right that she lucked out that there was a Berry Gordy there in Detroit. maybe she could have lucked out in fashion and found an employer that wasn't tied to antiquated racial discrimination or ideas and she might have risen higher than someone a decade or two prior.

[Ollie9]

yeah but "success" doesn't have to be defined as world conquest. and my comment would apply to any scenario. had Diana followed Daddy's request she would have worked hard at Cass on her studies, gotten better grades. then probably go to Wayne State which was affordable and accessible there in Detroit. she could continued to study fashion, millenary, design, sewing and construction. since she was pretty naturally talented in this area and lord knows she was competitive lol she'd probably have pushed herself for straight As or dean's list. upon graduating and getting a job somewhere in this field, she would have been a passionate worker. in early, staying late, pushing herself. and she would have eventually had some promotions and earned more money. gotten married, had kids, etc.

that could certainly have been a success had she not made it in music and entertainment. note that she isn't whisked away to Rome in my story, a la Mahogany.

not trying to say luck and timing are never a component. you're absolutely right that she lucked out that there was a Berry Gordy there in Detroit. maybe she could have lucked out in fashion and found an employer that wasn't tied to antiquated racial discrimination or ideas and she might have risen higher than someone a decade or two prior.

What might have been. I do agree that Diana would most likely have found success no matter what profession she decided on.
We know she always had a huge interest in fashion, so I wonder if that interest ever extended to modelling. The camera certainly loves her, but she’s probably to short to have been catwalk model as in Mahogany.

[sup_fan]

What might have been. I do agree that Diana would most likely have found success no matter what profession she decided on.
We know she always had a huge interest in fashion, so I wonder if that interest ever extended to modelling. The camera certainly loves her, but she’s probably to short to have been catwalk model as in Mahogany.

well and there were NO black models to speak of during the 60s. i couldn't imagine any of the major fashion houses in europe using a black model then either, so it's not just the US that would have been racist on this issue. she MIGHT have had luck with the emergence of Ebony and Jet magazines. it's possible she could have done some print modeling work with something they would advertise, like wigs or hair products. however Diana definitely did not have a figure that would have probably been desired by advertisers in the black magazines. her being too skinny and lacking curves.

i remember learning a little about how advertisers and marketers were slowly dabbling in the black market more in the 60s. a few token designers and models did make some inroads and maybe she could have too. more of this occurred in the 70s and 80s and 90s and she would have been too old by then

[midnightman]

I think this might be why we really don't get Diana interviews these days. I think a lot more interviewers are willing to push the envelope to get a story and Diana is not going to put herself in a position to address anything about Flo or Mary, in particular. And look, my position isn't that we the public are owed anything from Diana, as if she has to answer to us for anything she said or did 50 years ago. I'm just saying that as an admirer of the lady, I would appreciate her addressing her own actions, rather than addressing the actions of others. And it would be good to add further insight into who she was then, and who she is now.

True but sadly we'll never get it.

[midnightman]

well and there were NO black models to speak of during the 60s. i couldn't imagine any of the major fashion houses in europe using a black model then either, so it's not just the US that would have been racist on this issue. she MIGHT have had luck with the emergence of Ebony and Jet magazines. it's possible she could have done some print modeling work with something they would advertise, like wigs or hair products. however Diana definitely did not have a figure that would have probably been desired by advertisers in the black magazines. her being too skinny and lacking curves.

i remember learning a little about how advertisers and marketers were slowly dabbling in the black market more in the 60s. a few token designers and models did make some inroads and maybe she could have too. more of this occurred in the 70s and 80s and 90s and she would have been too old by then

Diana as a model wouldn't have worked. She definitely had to be a showgirl or singer to get attention if she was gonna go anywhere.

[Ollie9]

well and there were NO black models to speak of during the 60s. i couldn't imagine any of the major fashion houses in europe using a black model then either, so it's not just the US that would have been racist on this issue. she MIGHT have had luck with the emergence of Ebony and Jet magazines. it's possible she could have done some print modeling work with something they would advertise, like wigs or hair products. however Diana definitely did not have a figure that would have probably been desired by advertisers in the black magazines. her being too skinny and lacking curves.

i remember learning a little about how advertisers and marketers were slowly dabbling in the black market more in the 60s. a few token designers and models did make some inroads and maybe she could have too. more of this occurred in the 70s and 80s and 90s and she would have been too old by then

From what i have seen there were a handful of successful black models during the 60’s, but it was made a lot more difficult for them. Diana looked great on those Ebony covers or indeed any magazine she was featured in.
It’s notable that none of the reviews of Mahogany mention the fact that Diana was a little too old to be playing a model that takes the world by storm. Perhaps being a kind of fantasy it didn’t matter.

[marybrewster]

Jesus Christ. I wonder what went on in Diana's childhood to make her act the way she does cause holy crap... I do remember she recounted an earlier childhood memory of hearing her mother crying one night while a man, presumably Diana's dad Fred, screaming at her but apparently none of the Ross kids ever ask Ernestine what was happening. The demons Diana carried festered as she began her musical career obviously and just manifested. We know Diana had an intense rivalry with her sister Barbara "Bobbie" Ross so that may have been the catalyst to this. I also read [[I forget which book, maybe Dreamgirl or Ronnie Spector's book that Nay Rob recapped) that Diana and Ronnie Spector butted heads too.

Wow, did Diana get along with anyone?

[midnightman]

Wow, did Diana get along with anyone?

Not that I can recall.

[Ollie9]

Not that I can recall.

Now now. As long as no fool made eye contact all was usually well.

[midnightman]

Now now. As long as no fool made eye contact all was usually well.

Lol I don't know whether to laugh or cry whenever I read that part about her firing folks for simply looking at her for a second.

[Ollie9]

Lol I don't know whether to laugh or cry whenever I read that part about her firing folks for simply looking at her for a second.

Perhaps she was inspired by the legend of Medusa. :)