LIVE! in Japan Turns 50!

[marybrewster]

From Wiki:

The Supremes Live! In Japan is a live album released by The Supremes in 1973, culled from a live performance recorded on June 3, 1973 at Shinjuku Koseinenkin Hall in Tokyo, Japan. It was issued exclusively in Japan and also distributed in Europe, and was not released in the United States until 2004.

The line-up at the time of the concert consisted of original Supreme Mary Wilson, lead vocalist Jean Terrell and Lynda Laurence. The album was slated for release, but due to internal conflicts within the group and the sudden departure of both Terrell and Laurence, Motown shelved the project. It was released in Japan, but then suddenly withdrawn. The cover of the original album was used instead for a UK-issued compilation album released in 1974, compiling the Supremes' singles from 1970-73.

The album was issued by Hip-O Select Records in 2004 as a limited-edition CD release, as was The Temptations in Japan.

[Spreadinglove21]

If Jean and Lynda had stayed, would this album been released at the time? If so, would it have helped the group? Or be another nail in the Supremes coffin?

[marybrewster]

A couple of questions:

1) Was this truly one performance? Or was it recorded over several nights?

2) "but due to internal conflicts within the group and the sudden departure of both Terrell and Laurence, Motown shelved the project": is that the case? When did Jean and Lynda actually leave the Supremes? Didn't Scherrie join in October? Surely there would have been enough time between June and September to release it. Not sure what them leaving had to do with it, since Cindy left just prior to FLOY JOY.

[RanRan79]

If Jean and Lynda had stayed, would this album been released at the time? If so, would it have helped the group? Or be another nail in the Supremes coffin?

It may have been released. Probably would have been released. I don't know about it being a nail in the coffin, but it certainly wouldn't have done anything to resuscitate them, IMO.

[RanRan79]

A couple of questions:

1) Was this truly one performance? Or was it recorded over several nights?

2) "but due to internal conflicts within the group and the sudden departure of both Terrell and Laurence, Motown shelved the project": is that the case? When did Jean and Lynda actually leave the Supremes? Didn't Scherrie join in October? Surely there would have been enough time between June and September to release it. Not sure what them leaving had to do with it, since Cindy left just prior to FLOY JOY.

1) I don't know, but I do wonder if we have all the tracks or if there are one or more songs left off the release.

2) Remember, after Jean and Lynda exited, Motown's supposed intention was for the Supremes to cease to exist. So with Jean and Lynda gone, there would have been no reason to release the album, unless Motown wanted to milk one last ounce for a few bucks.

[marybrewster]

If Jean and Lynda had stayed, would this album been released at the time? If so, would it have helped the group? Or be another nail in the Supremes coffin?

Here's the track listing:
"Introduction"
"T.C.B"/"Stop! In the Name of Love"
Medley:
"For Once in My Life"
"I'll Take You There"
"Cabaret"
"Stoned Love"
"Can't Take My Eyes Off You"/"Quiet Nights of Quiet Stars"
New Hit Medley:
"Floy Joy"
"Automatically Sunshine"
"Nathan Jones"
"Up the Ladder to the Roof"
"Hit Medley:
"Reflections"
"Where Did Our Love Go"
"Baby Love"
"My World Is Empty Without You"
"Bad Weather"
"Cherry Pie"
"Tossin' and Turnin'"
"Somewhere"

Not terrible, but could have been so much better. I propose something like:

"Introduction"
"T.C.B"/"Stop! In the Name of Love"

Stevie Medley:
"For Once in My Life"/"Uptight"/"Signed, Sealed" [[Lynda)

"Bad Weather"

"Tossin' and Turnin'"

New Hit Medley:
"Automatically Sunshine"
"Nathan Jones"
"Up the Ladder to the Roof"

"Hit Medley:
"Reflections"
"Where Did Our Love Go"
"Baby Love"
"The Happening"
"Love Child"

Smokey Medley:
"Shop Around" [[Lynda)
"My Guy" [[Jean)
"Don't Mess With Bill" [[Mary)

"Floy Joy"

"A Song For You" [[Mary: tribute to Diana, Flo, Cindy)

"Stoned Love"

[marybrewster]

1) I don't know, but I do wonder if we have all the tracks or if there are one or more songs left off the release.

2) Remember, after Jean and Lynda exited, Motown's supposed intention was for the Supremes to cease to exist. So with Jean and Lynda gone, there would have been no reason to release the album, unless Motown wanted to milk one last ounce for a few bucks.

I don't have it in front of me, but it doesn't seem like a very long show. 45 minutes at best? I'm not sure what an average Supremes concert clocked in at around this time, but it does seem short. What else were they doing live around this time that would be missing?

[reese]

I don't have it in front of me, but it doesn't seem like a very long show. 45 minutes at best? I'm not sure what an average Supremes concert clocked in at around this time, but it does seem short. What else were they doing live around this time that would be missing?

I would think they would have been on stage for at least close to an hour in those days. I suspect that like their previous live albums, some songs were left out. But I don't think any unreleased recordings from this concert exist. When it was released on cd, I vaguely recall someone saying that all they had was the album master.

[gman]

why would Motown release this domestically and not the Temptations and J5 LIVE IN JAPAN Lps's?

I first saw this and the other LIVE Lp's in late '82 at a very pricey Greenwich Village collectors store on the east side of NYU...they had a ton of French / Dutch Motown pressing singles and LP's with different covers...and all the very early rare '61- '64 classics...all featured on the wall.

The price for the Supremes LP was $35....I was tempted and started to save, but blew the money all the time on normal priced LPS...this was before the internet....I had no idea what the concert would sound like...I can say in hindsight I AM GLAD I DID NOT SPEND $35 in 1982 cash ON THIS Lp!...I did get a fan to fan cassette copy and was disappointed, and thankful I spared myself an expensive non enjoyable purchase...I also had the later Mary Scherrie Cindy concert from Japan on a fan trade cassette too...that was a lot more enjoyable to me.

I did buy a few copies of the Hip-O-Select CD's of all 3 mentioned LIVE LP's, and about 6 of the JT box sets to hold on to, and sell once stock deleted and make some money...that was a very smart move...they paid the rent and the car insurance over time!!!!

[reese]

why would Motown release this domestically and not the Temptations and J5 LIVE IN JAPAN Lps's?

It wasn't released domestically until Hip-O-Select put it out on cd.

Before then, I traded with a fan who made a cassette copy for me. After that, I paid a pretty penny for it on eBay. It is my least favorite of their live albums but I still needed it for my collection.

[gman]

If the company wanted to make money on the name....they could have issued a Jean era Greatest Hits LP....waiting till '78 for AT THIER BEST was a drag... [[There should have been one Jean era hits LP, and one Scherrie era). At least the import version had 4 more songs...Automatically Sunshine, High Energy, He's My Man and You're What's Missing In My Life...

[reese]

If the company wanted to make money on the name....they could have issued a Jean era Greatest Hits LP....waiting till '78 for AT THIER BEST was a drag... [[There should have been one Jean era hits LP, and one Scherrie era). At least the import version had 4 more songs...Automatically Sunshine, High Energy, He's My Man and You're What's Missing In My Life...

Actually they did release a Jean-era hits collection but it wasn't released in the US. Although I do remember seeing it once or twice in a Bradlees cut out bin. The album cover design was the same as that for the live Japan album.

20987

[bradsupremes]

A couple of questions:
2) "but due to internal conflicts within the group and the sudden departure of both Terrell and Laurence, Motown shelved the project": is that the case? When did Jean and Lynda actually leave the Supremes? Didn't Scherrie join in October? Surely there would have been enough time between June and September to release it. Not sure what them leaving had to do with it, since Cindy left just prior to FLOY JOY.

I believe Jean left the group in August shortly after the Model Of The Year taping. I think Magic Mountain was her last gig - someone can correct me if I'm wrong. Lynda stayed on until September/early October. I'm not exactly sure where she left on the calendar. The original plan was that Cindy was going to come back and Lynda was going to share leads with Mary. I'm not too familiar with the particulars about what the breakdown was with Lynda but I think a lot of it had to do with pay. That's when she departed, Mary called around and had a few auditions with ladies like Shelly Clark and Leola Jiles before getting a hold of Lamont Dozier who recommended Scherrie. Scherrie had a week turnaround to learn the show and then the new lineup debuted at the Arizona State Fair.

[RanRan79]

Not terrible, but could have been so much better. I propose something like:

"Introduction"
"T.C.B"/"Stop! In the Name of Love"

Stevie Medley:
"For Once in My Life"/"Uptight"/"Signed, Sealed" [[Lynda)

"Bad Weather"

"Tossin' and Turnin'"

New Hit Medley:
"Automatically Sunshine"
"Nathan Jones"
"Up the Ladder to the Roof"

"Hit Medley:
"Reflections"
"Where Did Our Love Go"
"Baby Love"
"The Happening"
"Love Child"

Smokey Medley:
"Shop Around" [[Lynda)
"My Guy" [[Jean)
"Don't Mess With Bill" [[Mary)

"Floy Joy"

"A Song For You" [[Mary: tribute to Diana, Flo, Cindy)

"Stoned Love"

Certainly a better show. My only critiques being no "Shop Around" [[I hate that song lol) and while I'm not negative on Mary singing "A Song For You", I don't care for the idea of her singing it as a tribute to her former singing partners, especially if she's bumping heads with the current ones.:D

I would have Mary do either "My Guy" or "Hunter Gets Captured By the Game", but I'm good with her doing "Bill" too. I could hear Lynda doing "The Way You Do the Things You Do" or "Get Ready". I think Jean would have slayed any of the Smokey ballads: "Ooh Baby Baby", "Tracks of My Tears", "Since I Lost My Baby", "Here I Go Again", among others. Might have been nice for the group to include their own Smokey produced early stuff, "Your Heart Belongs to Me" or "A Breath Taking Guy".

[RanRan79]

I vaguely recall someone saying that all they had was the album master.

If true, that sucks.

[BayouMotownMan]

Brad you are correct, Jean and Lynda left shortly after the Magic Mt concert in August of 1973...50 yrs ago. The MM show was basically the same as the Tokyo show [[I attended all the MM performances) except the old hits medley was removed and Bad Weather was re-arranged.

The one good thing I can say about the Japan lp is that Jean Terrell sounded incredible. Lynda could have been given more to do. Tossin and Turnin could have been removed or reduced. They kept that boring song in the act for a couple years with Scherrie doing it later.

Jean Terrell told Mary she was leaving the group in May 1973. In June she contacted Berry Gordy and he agreed to release her. Jean agreed to finish out the concert dates through the end of the year while Mary and Motown searched for a replacement. Recording dates were cancelled.

Jean did the MM shows and the Model of the Year Special. There were still a few more dates in the autumn of 1973 but both Jean and Lynda were now pregnant and Mary had a pregnancy scare. Mary then recruited Scherrie and Cindy to fill those dates, must to Motown's chagrin.

In September the Supremes Fan Club finally made it official that Jean was leaving. Lynda was to be the primary lead singer and Cindy would return. Shortly after this announcement was made, Lynda and Mary kept going around and around on the future of the group with Lynda then announcing she too would leave.

Motown had no interest in releasing this live set in the USA. After Jean's departure and Mary announcing her intention to marry, BG thought he was finished with The Supremes sans Diana Ross.

Mary showed him differently

[RanRan79]

If the company wanted to make money on the name....they could have issued a Jean era Greatest Hits LP....waiting till '78 for AT THIER BEST was a drag... [[There should have been one Jean era hits LP, and one Scherrie era). At least the import version had 4 more songs...Automatically Sunshine, High Energy, He's My Man and You're What's Missing In My Life...

There was always money in the name. The company was going to milk it dry, but most of that money was in the Diana era catalog. The live album's conception was about getting product out on the current lineup. Perhaps a greatest hits package would have been the better idea, especially if a new single was cut, hit, and included, like "The Happening" was for the original hits set.

[sup_fan]

around this time, wasn't Lynda doing the lead on You're Nobody? i would guess that was also recorded in japan, but not included on the album. there certainly could have been more dialog which was edited out. there's probably 1 or 2 more songs

there would also have been a jean solo song. previously she'd done He Ain't Heavy, MacArthur Park, You'll never walk alone, people.

the Love The One You're With segment was in the act through the Temps tour and into fall 72. but when they did their shows at the Apollo in late 72, it wasn't there. however the Apollo shows were shorter as they we doing multiple shows a day. so that could also explain it not being in the act

[BayouMotownMan]

Lynda's solo You're Nobody and Love The One had been taken out of the group's act for this show as the venue attracted a younger audience. Both that and the Supremes themselves wanted less Vegas material in the show especially after that blistering review in Frisco which upset Jean to the point of resignation.

As I said, I attended all the shows at Magic Mountain over 4 nights. They did do the Cabaret medley a couple of times, I Guess I'll Miss the Man was done one night and Jean did He Ain't Heavy a couple times.

Jean did do a solo for the Japan lp on MacArthur Park but it was edited out of the lp release.

I remember how surprised I was at the audience reception to Bad Weather at Magic Mt. I had to wonder if the national charts were accurate as many of those young people knew that song immediately and had their Bad Weather whistles with them.

[marybrewster]

Certainly a better show. My only critiques being no "Shop Around" [[I hate that song lol) and while I'm not negative on Mary singing "A Song For You", I don't care for the idea of her singing it as a tribute to her former singing partners, especially if she's bumping heads with the current ones.:D

I would have Mary do either "My Guy" or "Hunter Gets Captured By the Game", but I'm good with her doing "Bill" too. I could hear Lynda doing "The Way You Do the Things You Do" or "Get Ready". I think Jean would have slayed any of the Smokey ballads: "Ooh Baby Baby", "Tracks of My Tears", "Since I Lost My Baby", "Here I Go Again", among others. Might have been nice for the group to include their own Smokey produced early stuff, "Your Heart Belongs to Me" or "A Breath Taking Guy".

It was just a "what if", lol. I'm not exactly crazy about "Shop Around" either, but I thought it'd be a good intro for the Smokey Medley, leading up to FLOY JOY. And I get your point about Mary's "dedication"; I just thought something more current than EYES. She'd later do "How Lucky Can You Get" but that wasn't until after Barbra recorded it in 1975, and Flo's psssinng in 1976. I always thought Mary shined on "A Song For You", which was released in 1971. Anyway, fun switching things up a bit, even in fantasy.

[gman]

I just thought of something regarding waiting for AT THIER BEST... the big Anthology sets were probably being planned around the time Jean left...I wonder if there was ever any consideration for a 70's Supremes one when they started rolling them out? Certainly, there was enough for a 2 LP set with some LP tracks, B sides and maybe unreleased material too...I would have loved that...with a nice booklet!!!

I read about Jean and Lynda leaving in a issue of Right On magazine...that was where I got all my Supremes news...I do remember the Sonny and Cher show aired before RO introduced Scherrie...I recognized Cindy immediately and was so glad to see her back..I loved Cindy more in this line up than ever....

[RanRan79]

It was just a "what if", lol. I'm not exactly crazy about "Shop Around" either, but I thought it'd be a good intro for the Smokey Medley, leading up to FLOY JOY. And I get your point about Mary's "dedication"; I just thought something more current than EYES. She'd later do "How Lucky Can You Get" but that wasn't until after Barbra recorded it in 1975, and Flo's psssinng in 1976. I always thought Mary shined on "A Song For You", which was released in 1971. Anyway, fun switching things up a bit, even in fantasy.

Sure, it was a "what if", but I was treating it with the seriousness that you did when you came up with it.:cool:

It all just drums home the fact that the group couldn't even get the live shows to be worth a damn at this point. I guess there was little to nothing they could do on the recording side of things, but one would think the group would be in a position to arrange their own shows, decide what songs to do, etc. Most of this stuff was too safe and predictable. The Supremes needed a real jolt of electricity.

[RanRan79]

I just thought of something regarding waiting for AT THIER BEST... the big Anthology sets were probably being planned around the time Jean left...I wonder if there was ever any consideration for a 70's Supremes one when they started rolling them out? Certainly, there was enough for a 2 LP set with some LP tracks, B sides and maybe unreleased material too...I would have loved that...with a nice booklet!!!

I'm betting this never even came up for discussion. Closest thing would have probably been someone mulling over making the set even longer by including the post Diana recordings, which either was shot down or it also never came up. Truth is, the side with all the specialty album cuts should have been axed to at least make room for "Ladder", "Everybody", "Stoned", "River" and "Nathan".

[marybrewster]

I just thought of something regarding waiting for AT THIER BEST... the big Anthology sets were probably being planned around the time Jean left...I wonder if there was ever any consideration for a 70's Supremes one when they started rolling them out? Certainly, there was enough for a 2 LP set with some LP tracks, B sides and maybe unreleased material too...I would have loved that...with a nice booklet!!!

I read about Jean and Lynda leaving in a issue of Right On magazine...that was where I got all my Supremes news...I do remember the Sonny and Cher show aired before RO introduced Scherrie...I recognized Cindy immediately and was so glad to see her back..I loved Cindy more in this line up than ever....

I feel like Mr. George is the expert in 70's Supremes tracks/releases. Perhaps if he sees this, he'll chime in. If I recall, the majority of those anthologies started in 1974. ATB came out in 1978? I swear this originally was planned as a 2 LP set, but I could be wrong.

[marybrewster]

Sure, it was a "what if", but I was treating it with the seriousness that you did when you came up with it.:cool:

It all just drums home the fact that the group couldn't even get the live shows to be worth a damn at this point. I guess there was little to nothing they could do on the recording side of things, but one would think the group would be in a position to arrange their own shows, decide what songs to do, etc. Most of this stuff was too safe and predictable. The Supremes needed a real jolt of electricity.

That's a good question though: was the group in a position to arrange their own shows? We give Mary and the Supremes a lot of sh*te for presenting the same old song, but who really in charge?

[RanRan79]

That's a good question though: was the group in a position to arrange their own shows? We give Mary and the Supremes a lot of sh*te for presenting the same old song, but who really in charge?

I can't imagine who else would have been in charge other than the group themselves, or just Mary. Going back to the original trio, Gordy was obviously invested in everything, but he had people designated to handle everything: Cholly with choreography, Gil with the music, etc. And the girls answered to Gordy at the end of the day. If he said jump, they jumped. By 1973, who were the Supremes jumping for? Gordy was clearly disinterested with the music side of things, let alone the Supremes themselves. What manager or arranger had so much control and power that if the ladies said "Okay, time to revamp this entire thing", that person would have put the fear of God into them and basically told them to just show up and sing? Who was managing Motown that cared enough to tell the Supremes "You're not allowed to have control over the shows"? I just don't see it.

[sup_fan]

Lynda's solo You're Nobody and Love The One had been taken out of the group's act for this show as the venue attracted a younger audience. Both that and the Supremes themselves wanted less Vegas material in the show especially after that blistering review in Frisco which upset Jean to the point of resignation.

As I said, I attended all the shows at Magic Mountain over 4 nights. They did do the Cabaret medley a couple of times, I Guess I'll Miss the Man was done one night and Jean did He Ain't Heavy a couple times.

Jean did do a solo for the Japan lp on MacArthur Park but it was edited out of the lp release.

I remember how surprised I was at the audience reception to Bad Weather at Magic Mt. I had to wonder if the national charts were accurate as many of those young people knew that song immediately and had their Bad Weather whistles with them.

we've mentioned how BW was sort of a weird charter. it hovered around 100 for weeks and then popped up to 87. then dropped but didn't drop off. hovered again around 100 for several weeks. I wonder if there were issued with some cities or regions jumping on it and others ignoring it. or the timing between regions was off, hence the national chart number never really gelled

[sup_fan]

I'm betting this never even came up for discussion. Closest thing would have probably been someone mulling over making the set even longer by including the post Diana recordings, which either was shot down or it also never came up. Truth is, the side with all the specialty album cuts should have been axed to at least make room for "Ladder", "Everybody", "Stoned", "River" and "Nathan".

yeah i agree. never were they gonna do a complete 70s anthology. MAYBE they would have done 1 side of 70s tunes and just grabbed the bigger hits

[marybrewster]

I can't imagine who else would have been in charge other than the group themselves, or just Mary. Going back to the original trio, Gordy was obviously invested in everything, but he had people designated to handle everything: Cholly with choreography, Gil with the music, etc. And the girls answered to Gordy at the end of the day. If he said jump, they jumped. By 1973, who were the Supremes jumping for? Gordy was clearly disinterested with the music side of things, let alone the Supremes themselves. What manager or arranger had so much control and power that if the ladies said "Okay, time to revamp this entire thing", that person would have put the fear of God into them and basically told them to just show up and sing? Who was managing Motown that cared enough to tell the Supremes "You're not allowed to have control over the shows"? I just don't see it.

So are you suggesting that Mary would have the insight and funds to invest into someone like Geoffrey Holder who would "revamp" the show for the MSS era? Not an accusatory question, lol.

[reese]

yeah i agree. never were they gonna do a complete 70s anthology. MAYBE they would have done 1 side of 70s tunes and just grabbed the bigger hits

Unlike with Temptations collections which included material from all eras of the group, when it came to groups with revised billings like the Supremes and the Miracles, I believe Motown wanted to make a distinction between before and after. I don't think there were collections on those groups encompassing all eras until the advent of cds, at least in the US.

[marybrewster]

Unlike with Temptations collections which included material from all eras of the group, when it came to groups with revised billings like the Supremes and the Miracles, I believe Motown wanted to make a distinction between before and after. I don't think there were collections on those groups encompassing all eras until the advent of cds.

LOVE SUPREME was released by Motown in 1988 [[UK only?) and included Automatically Sunshine, Up the Ladder to the Roof, Stoned Love, Floy Joy, and Nathan Jones. I'd be curious to know if this was the first to include any 70s era singles.

[reese]

LOVE SUPREME was released by Motown in 1988 [[UK only?) and included Automatically Sunshine, Up the Ladder to the Roof, Stoned Love, Floy Joy, and Nathan Jones. I'd be curious to know if this was the first to include any 70s era singles.

I should have specified the US. :D

But there was a 70s US TV collection called DIANA ROSS AND THE SUPREMES that included some Jean-era recordings as well.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lazaoT_7h2A

[RanRan79]

So are you suggesting that Mary would have the insight and funds to invest into someone like Geoffrey Holder who would "revamp" the show for the MSS era? Not an accusatory question, lol.

In her book, Mary says that "we" hired Geoffrey and some other dude to revamp the act, and she pointed out that the money was coming out of "our" pockets. I think if an outside the act person, like a Motown exec, had brought these people in, she would have said they were brought in [[and also added "at our expense" because we know Motown didn't pay for shit). The way she writes, it seems to me that she, and maybe the other Supremes, took the initiative to bring these people in. Of course by this time, I think Pedro was their manager, so he may have been the one to bring these people in. [[And Mary's use of "we" and "our" may not have been herself and the other Supremes, but instead herself and Pedro.)

So if Mary and company were able to revamp the act in 1975 or 76, I have to figure that they had the power to do it in 1973. If not, what changed from 1973 to 75 or 76?

[sup_fan]

Lynda's solo You're Nobody and Love The One had been taken out of the group's act for this show as the venue attracted a younger audience. Both that and the Supremes themselves wanted less Vegas material in the show especially after that blistering review in Frisco which upset Jean to the point of resignation.

As I said, I attended all the shows at Magic Mountain over 4 nights. They did do the Cabaret medley a couple of times, I Guess I'll Miss the Man was done one night and Jean did He Ain't Heavy a couple times.

Jean did do a solo for the Japan lp on MacArthur Park but it was edited out of the lp release.

I remember how surprised I was at the audience reception to Bad Weather at Magic Mt. I had to wonder if the national charts were accurate as many of those young people knew that song immediately and had their Bad Weather whistles with them.

Rick - after You're Nobody was chopped, did lynda have anything else really in the show? i know they traded a few lines in Cabaret and all but did they give her any other leads or parts?

[sup_fan]

I can't imagine who else would have been in charge other than the group themselves, or just Mary. Going back to the original trio, Gordy was obviously invested in everything, but he had people designated to handle everything: Cholly with choreography, Gil with the music, etc. And the girls answered to Gordy at the end of the day. If he said jump, they jumped. By 1973, who were the Supremes jumping for? Gordy was clearly disinterested with the music side of things, let alone the Supremes themselves. What manager or arranger had so much control and power that if the ladies said "Okay, time to revamp this entire thing", that person would have put the fear of God into them and basically told them to just show up and sing? Who was managing Motown that cared enough to tell the Supremes "You're not allowed to have control over the shows"? I just don't see it.

i've heard various things during the later jean years. and to be honest, i don't know and am not sure what to really believe.

some have said that Motown absolutely still dictated how the shows would be structured, the material sung, styling, etc. Others have said motown did run it but Mary was also highly involved.

we've all pointed to the JW album being a major factor in their decline but recently a bunch of reviews from shows in later 71 have been shared on FB and they should that the critics were already losing interest in the group. that people were getting tired of the same old MOR/vegas show and wanted something new from the group.

i think the real issue is that DRATS were already starting to drift - the album sales during the Diana years really weren't very exciting. sure a few albums did great and most sold ok but the charts weren't afire with supremes lps. the ultra glam image worked a while but it too was tiring by the time diana left. with the introduction of Jean, the group and show were reinvigorated a bit. they were still sticking to that old formula but M and C had more to do, there was a more soulful approach to things, the O Happy Day/revival ending.

but they needed to do something new with the girls by late 70 and into 71. they didn't do that and so things began to drift.

[marybrewster]

That makes good sense.

And this thread is going to take a life on its own:

In 1972/1973, was Motown still paying for gowns, choreography, staging, and music charts? Or was that expense on the group? And how did that go over with Lynda, who was "new"? By this time Jean, and of course Mary, we're invested. But should 1/3 of the expense have fallen to a member who had only been in the group a few weeks/months?

By the time Scherrie joined, with Cindy returning, Pedro was at the helm and Supremes Inc. was formed, so maybe the expense was more on Mary and her company? Or was a portion of each salary put into the "kitty"?

The last thing to ponder: when Flo left the Supremes, she was paid out for her gowns. Not sure if Diana was, although she turned them over to Mary. As the group acquired more stagewear, at the expense of the group, was each leaving member paid out for what they'd purchased?

[BayouMotownMan]

Rick - after You're Nobody was chopped, did lynda have anything else really in the show? i know they traded a few lines in Cabaret and all but did they give her any other leads or parts?

No, she had the little bit of Cabaret and one line in Tossin' and Turnin'. Lynda wasn't with the group much longer after You're Nobody was removed.

[sup_fan]

That makes good sense.

And this thread is going to take a life on its own:

In 1972/1973, was Motown still paying for gowns, choreography, staging, and music charts? Or was that expense on the group? And how did that go over with Lynda, who was "new"? By this time Jean, and of course Mary, we're invested. But should 1/3 of the expense have fallen to a member who had only been in the group a few weeks/months?

By the time Scherrie joined, with Cindy returning, Pedro was at the helm and Supremes Inc. was formed, so maybe the expense was more on Mary and her company? Or was a portion of each salary put into the "kitty"?

The last thing to ponder: when Flo left the Supremes, she was paid out for her gowns. Not sure if Diana was, although she turned them over to Mary. As the group acquired more stagewear, at the expense of the group, was each leaving member paid out for what they'd purchased?

my understanding is that the group always paid for their show and stagewear. yes when Artist Development was first established in early 65, it was offered free to the groups because Berry wanted to control the acts and make them attend and subscribe to his view of entertainment. if they paid for it, they'd have the choice as to yes or no

but AD eventually died off. i don't know when exactly but maybe by the later 60s or certainly by the 70s. sure motown still offered guidance to their acts. clearly the J5 were mentored and coached on how to give an interview and talk on stage. and perhaps Jean got some of that.

my guess it that it evolved from less of a charm school concept to department focusing on stage execution.

[sup_fan]

No, she had the little bit of Cabaret and one line in Tossin' and Turnin'. Lynda wasn't with the group much longer after You're Nobody was removed.

as you mentioned above, supposed Lynda would have been lead or co-lead had she stayed. would be interesting to hypothesize what that might have done. with Cindy returning and Lynda continuing perhaps it would have eased the transition from Jean more. of course jean had be so much the voice of the 70s supremes that pretty much any change would be major.

[Boogiedown]

As I said, I attended all the shows at Magic Mountain over 4 nights. They did do the Cabaret medley a couple of times, I Guess I'll Miss the Man was done one night and Jean did He Ain't Heavy a couple times.
.


A bit of a curve ball here, but I was at Magic Mountain for one of these shows and my memory has it as being in the afternoon .... ????

[bradsupremes]

That makes good sense.

And this thread is going to take a life on its own:

In 1972/1973, was Motown still paying for gowns, choreography, staging, and music charts? Or was that expense on the group? And how did that go over with Lynda, who was "new"? By this time Jean, and of course Mary, we're invested. But should 1/3 of the expense have fallen to a member who had only been in the group a few weeks/months?

By the time Scherrie joined, with Cindy returning, Pedro was at the helm and Supremes Inc. was formed, so maybe the expense was more on Mary and her company? Or was a portion of each salary put into the "kitty"?

The last thing to ponder: when Flo left the Supremes, she was paid out for her gowns. Not sure if Diana was, although she turned them over to Mary. As the group acquired more stagewear, at the expense of the group, was each leaving member paid out for what they'd purchased?

The group paid for everything - gowns, charts, recording and photo sessions, limos, etc. All paid for by the ladies. This goes back to the beginning. When I worked with Mary, she was a bit insistent she have free use of any professional photos taken of the group. Her reasoning "We paid for that session so I should have the right to use any photo from that session. I shouldn't have to pay Getty Images to use it." The same applied to the gowns.

Not too sure if members were paid out for the gowns - highly doubt Jean was paid for the gowns created for her, certainly not for gowns made in the DRATS era. The gowns belonged to the group. Much like a uniform for a job, you leave it with the company. I do know when they worked with Pat Campano, the gowns were paid out from Supremes, Inc. By this point, Motown really had nothing to do with the business end/expenses of the group's live charts, gowns, etc.

[marybrewster]

The group paid for everything - gowns, charts, recording and photo sessions, limos, etc. All paid for by the ladies. This goes back to the beginning. When I worked with Mary, she was a bit insistent she have free use of any professional photos taken of the group. Her reasoning "We paid for that session so I should have the right to use any photo from that session. I shouldn't have to pay Getty Images to use it." The same applied to the gowns.

Not too sure if members were paid out for the gowns - highly doubt Jean was paid for the gowns created for her, certainly not for gowns made in the DRATS era. The gowns belonged to the group. Much like a uniform for a job, you leave it with the company. I do know when they worked with Pat Campano, the gowns were paid out from Supremes, Inc. By this point, Motown really had nothing to do with the business end/expenses of the group's live charts, gowns, etc.

To your point though, when I'm buying a polo shirt for work, I'm paying for it. So when I leave, why should it stay with the company?

[blackguy69]

Now let’s discuss, why would you want to keep a uniform from a job that you no longer have or have use for? I’m sure whom ever leaves the group, they were recouped for the gowns that were created during their tenure. Also remember it wasn’t just the Supremes. The Vandellas, marvelettes and the Temptations kept the stage outfits of the departing member.
To your point though, when I'm buying a polo shirt for work, I'm paying for it. So when I leave, why should it stay with the company?

[daviddh]

I like this line up of supremes.
Good harmony.
From what I remember,there were two out takes from this show.
This was also a soundtrack to a live TV special in Japan...that's why it was a shorter show or edited down to be that.
There was a planned Jean hits album ,called Gold and a Diana solo Gold planned around 73-74....I remember it was around the time of Touch Me In The Morning or thereafter.
Obviously ,both cancelled.

[marybrewster]

Now let’s discuss, why would you want to keep a uniform from a job that you no longer have or have use for? I’m sure whom ever leaves the group, they were recouped for the gowns that were created during their tenure. Also remember it wasn’t just the Supremes. The Vandellas, marvelettes and the Temptations kept the stage outfits of the departing member.

Very true; two sides to every coin. But there's a vast difference between a $50 polo shirt I'm paying for, and a $5000 gown I'm paying for.

[Spreadinglove21]

Regarding the SF show they were panned for by the critics, what was the set list for that show?

[BayouMotownMan]

Regarding the SF show they were panned for by the critics, what was the set list for that show?

I don't recall an entire set list but it was basically a Vegas style show. Quick hits medleys, one from the 60s and 70s. The Cabaret medley was in the show as was MacArthur Park. I would assume Bad Weather was in it as it was a new release. Lynda's You're Nobody and Mary's Can't Take My Eyes. Jean started doing He Ain't Heavy some months before so I am assuming that was in the show as well. Full length version of Stoned Love being the only old hit in its entirety.

[sup_fan]

I don't recall an entire set list but it was basically a Vegas style show. Quick hits medleys, one from the 60s and 70s. The Cabaret medley was in the show as was MacArthur Park. I would assume Bad Weather was in it as it was a new release. Lynda's You're Nobody and Mary's Can't Take My Eyes. Jean started doing He Ain't Heavy some months before so I am assuming that was in the show as well. Full length version of Stoned Love being the only old hit in its entirety.

frankly it's not drastically different from the japan show, given that the recording was only 1 month after SFO

I'd also assume TCB and Somewhere were also done in SFO.

[Boogiedown]

I'm challenging my memory.... this photo looks like daytime ....

https://soulfuldetroit.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=11476&d=1468194975

[marybrewster]

I'm challenging my memory.... this photo looks like daytime ....

https://soulfuldetroit.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=11476&d=1468194975

This was Magic Mountain? I believe there are photos of MSC onstage woth Flo [[in the same dress) beating a tambourine for Jesus.

[bradsupremes]

The photo of Flo and Cindy was taken at Mary's house.

[reese]

I'm challenging my memory.... this photo looks like daytime ....

https://soulfuldetroit.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=11476&d=1468194975

I think this is from a picnic or get-together they had for Flo during her visit. In Charlotte Grieg's book WILL YOU STILL LOVE ME TOMORROW?, Cindy mentioned that they had people there who they hoped could help Flo get back into the business. But after a few days, Flo said that she missed her kids and went back to Detroit.

[Boogiedown]

This was Magic Mountain? I believe there are photos of MSC onstage woth Flo [[in the same dress) beating a tambourine for Jesus.

Is that what they were doing?? "beating tambourines for Jesus"? That's the first time I've heard that spin on it.

https://soulfuldetroit.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=11476&d=1468194975


Most interesting that two rare photos of Florence Ballard and she's wearing what could be the same dress..... but ya that's entirely possible. I got it from the following , but now looking again I can see Flo's hair is longer in one.


Added: But the two photos are of that same LA visit , so only days apart ?? Wigs I guess.

https://soulfuldetroit.com/showthread.php?16975-The-Day-That-Florence-Ballard-and-Cindy-Birdsong-Came-Together [[https://soulfuldetroit.com/showthread.php?16975-The-Day-That-Florence-Ballard-and-Cindy-Birdsong-Came-Together)

[Boogiedown]

BayouMotownMan [[https://soulfuldetroit.com/member.php?1550-BayouMotownMan)

: Brad you are correct, Jean and Lynda left shortly after the Magic Mt concert in August of 1973...50 yrs ago.



am now more confused...The Supremes performed at Magic mountain two summers in a row?? Is that it?

more:
OK yes that is it, its now making sense

from CASHBOX Aug 18th 1973:


cashbox talent on stage

The Supremes
MAGIC MOUNTAIN, VALENCIA,
CALIF.-Although the legendary
Supremes haven't had a major chart
record in a while, their packed club
audiences and consistent good re-
views keep their popularity alive.
The audience at Magic Mountain was
no exception, giving the gowned trio
a warm reception. However, the
3,500 who assembled to hear The
Supremes most likely wanted to hear
them perform their hits, and not
those made famous by the Staple
Singers or the Ojays. Sandwiched in
between showtunes and other people's
hits was a modicum of their own
smash records, mostly their recent
ones like "Floy Joy" and "Nathan
Jones."
It was interesting to note that
Supremes Jean Terrell and Lynda
Laurence were dressed in one color
while the group's only original mem-
ber, Mary Wilson, wore another color,
suggesting that she is either being
pushed as the lead or is simply being
featured as the senior Supreme. Mary
did solo nicely on "Can't Take My
Eyes Off You." Jean Terrell has a
marvelous voice, as do all of the girls,
and she was able to assimilate the
feeling Diana projected when she was
with the group. Jean does this in a
natural, effortless way, not to be con-
sidered as an impersonation of Diana
Ross. She handles her lead vocals
confidently and convincingly. Another
observation about the Supremes at
Magic Mountain was that, over all,
they had a much more unison sound.
r.b

[sup_fan]

the girls did play Magic Mountain a lot.

[Spreadinglove21]

am now more confused...The Supremes performed at Magic mountain two summers in a row?? Is that it?

more:
OK yes that is it, its now making sense

from CASHBOX Aug 18th 1973:


cashbox talent on stage

The Supremes
MAGIC MOUNTAIN, VALENCIA,
CALIF.-Although the legendary
Supremes haven't had a major chart
record in a while, their packed club
audiences and consistent good re-
views keep their popularity alive.
The audience at Magic Mountain was
no exception, giving the gowned trio
a warm reception. However, the
3,500 who assembled to hear The
Supremes most likely wanted to hear
them perform their hits, and not
those made famous by the Staple
Singers or the Ojays. Sandwiched in
between showtunes and other people's
hits was a modicum of their own
smash records, mostly their recent
ones like "Floy Joy" and "Nathan
Jones."
It was interesting to note that
Supremes Jean Terrell and Lynda
Laurence were dressed in one color
while the group's only original mem-
ber, Mary Wilson, wore another color,
suggesting that she is either being
pushed as the lead or is simply being
featured as the senior Supreme. Mary
did solo nicely on "Can't Take My
Eyes Off You." Jean Terrell has a
marvelous voice, as do all of the girls,
and she was able to assimilate the
feeling Diana projected when she was
with the group. Jean does this in a
natural, effortless way, not to be con-
sidered as an impersonation of Diana
Ross. She handles her lead vocals
confidently and convincingly. Another
observation about the Supremes at
Magic Mountain was that, over all,
they had a much more unison sound.
r.b

I wonder if they were wearing the outfits the Supremes wore when they did No Matter What Sign You Are on Sullivan and Someday We'll Be Together on Smokey Robinson special?

[Spreadinglove21]

I don't recall an entire set list but it was basically a Vegas style show. Quick hits medleys, one from the 60s and 70s. The Cabaret medley was in the show as was MacArthur Park. I would assume Bad Weather was in it as it was a new release. Lynda's You're Nobody and Mary's Can't Take My Eyes. Jean started doing He Ain't Heavy some months before so I am assuming that was in the show as well. Full length version of Stoned Love being the only old hit in its entirety.

Thanks for the info and drawing on your memory.

[gman]

Magic Mountain was a minimal travel expense gig...they probably loved performing there and going home each night.