Berry Gordy denies the Marvin Gaye/"What's Going On" stories

[Jimi LaLumia]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304432304576369391596539946.html?K EYWORDS=berry+gordy

and Marvin isn't around to call him a liar...

[Roberta75]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304432304576369391596539946.html?K EYWORDS=berry+gordy

and Marvin isn't around to call him a liar...

Does it really matter now? The point is What's Going On was released and to this day it is still one of the most perfect albums [[in my opinion) ever recorded.

[Jimi LaLumia]

it obviously really matters to Berry Gordy, who is still talking about it..
methinks thou dost protest too much...
I am not a fan of revisionist history when one half of the conversation is no longer around to participate

[kenneth]

Interesting that all these years later, Gordy wants to "set the record straight." The stories regarding Gordy's hesitation to release Gaye's masterpiece have not only been repeated since that time, but were reported even back then with little response from Gordy. That being said, I wouldn't find it difficult to believe that Gordy considered the publicity at the time good for sales so kept quiet for that reason.

Still, the stories ring true. Motown was notoriously "anti-message" in their music, at least until Norman Whitfield and a few others came along in the late 60s, and Gaye's "message" was for a whole album not just a few singles. Contrast this to Edwin Starr, the Temptations or the Undisputed Truth who had some "message" records but typically their LPs were more traditional Motown albums, with the hit singles and then lots of Motown covers to fill out the length of the LPs.

[Jimi LaLumia]

up next;
Gordy explains that Florence Ballard really did leave The Supremes because she was tired and wanted to raise a family

[jobeterob]

By MARC MYERS
Bel Air, Calif.

Dressed in a crisp white linen shirt, black slacks and black loafers, Berry Gordy Jr. settled into a plush sofa last week as Marvin Gaye's voice boomed through a recessed speaker system. The founder of Motown Records had invited me to his estate here high above Los Angeles to talk about "What's Going On," Gaye's monumental hit single and album released 40 years ago, to be reissued Tuesday as a remastered anniversary package. By the end of the title track, Mr. Gordy's eyes were watery.


Zina Saunders

An illustration of Berry Gordy Jr.
."For years, people have written that I stood in the way of this song's release and that Marvin had threatened never to record for me again if I didn't put it out," said the 81-year-old Mr. Gordy. "That must make for great reading, but none of it is true."

Released first as a single in January 1971, "What's Going On" marked a major turning point for Gaye, Motown and soul music. Rather than continue to record formulaic pop hits, Gaye co-wrote a song that expressed his deep concern about the Vietnam War and the toll it was taking on American society.

The single was considered a gamble for Motown. Its blunt protest theme was in stark contrast with Gaye's sexy public persona and Motown's congenial image. But as "What's Going On" raced up the Billboard Hot 100 chart, Gaye rushed back into the studio to complete a concept album that included "Mercy Mercy Me [[The Ecology)" and "Inner City Blues." The new songs—supported by horns, strings and a choir arranged by David Van DePitte—took on urban decay, poverty, unemployment, Vietnam veterans, children and pollution.

Released in May 1971, the LP reached No. 6 on Billboard's Top 10 album chart in July, and two of its songs are now in the Grammy Hall of Fame—the title track and "Mercy Mercy Me [[The Ecology)." To commemorate the album's 40th anniversary, UME/Motown will release a remastered edition that includes two CDs with 16 previously unreleased tracks and a vinyl LP of Gaye's first mix.

When Gaye began developing the single in 1970, Mr. Gordy was taken aback by the directness of the lyrics. "I'll be honest. At first I didn't want Marvin to do it," said Mr. Gordy. "I was in Bermuda when Marvin called to tell me he was putting together a protest song. I said, 'Protest?' I was stunned. Up until then, Marvin's career had been based on a positive image, and his fans loved him for it. I told him we should talk when I returned."

In 1970, Gaye had been in a yearlong crossover slump—particularly painful for one of Motown's top earners. His previous six singles had failed to gain traction, reaching only high double-digits on Billboard's Hot 100 Chart.

"To understand my first reaction to Marvin's 'What's Going On,' you have to understand my close relationship with him," said Mr. Gordy, whose sister Anna was married to Gaye at the time. "Marvin often came to me with crazy ideas. One time he wanted to be a professional boxer. Then later he wanted to join the Detroit Lions. He was a restless genius, and with genius comes a little craziness. My job was to make him see the consequences of his decisions, to protect him."

When Mr. Gordy returned from Bermuda, he and Gaye had several conversations about the single. He told Gaye that as one of the label's best-selling stars and a Motown leader, he had certain responsibilities. "Marvin's answer was, 'No, BG, you don't understand, you have to let me do this. I want to awaken the minds of men,'" Mr. Gordy said. "When I heard that, it changed my mind."

But Mr. Gordy still had reservations about some of Gaye's lyrics for "What's Going On," specifically the line about police brutality. "I told Marvin he couldn't generalize like that, that the people in the Detroit Police Department were my friends and that every policeman wasn't brutal," Mr. Gordy said. "I said, 'Even though something is true, Marvin, why should you and Motown be the ones to say it?' Marvin said, 'Who else but us?' Of course, Marvin was right."

By 1970, social issues and protest weren't completely new themes for Mr. Gordy or Motown. In 1963, Mr. Gordy had Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. record his "I Have a Dream" speech for Motown's Gordy label. And hit songs like the Supremes' "Love Child" [[1968), the Temptations' "Ball of Confusion" [[1970) and Edwin Star's "War" [[1970) had abstractly addressed poverty, children born out of wedlock and the brutality of war.

"My reason for pushing back on Marvin wasn't to stop the single, just to determine whether or not this was another one of his wild ideas," Mr. Gordy said. "Motown was about music for all people—white and black, blue and green, cops and the robbers. I was reluctant to have our music alienate anyone. This was a big risk for his image."

What about the delay between the single's completion in September 1970 and its release four months later at the end of January 1971? "The other labels would put out their big releases in September and October for Christmas," Mr. Gordy said. "But we would typically wait until after the holiday season to release singles on our major artists so the field would be clear."

Did someone really leak the single leaked to a Los Angeles disc jockey in January 1971, as some articles have said, to test public reaction or force Mr. Gordy's hand? "That's another one of those colorful stories," Mr. Gordy said. "Motown had tight controls, and no one at the label would have done something like that. Marvin would never have defied me."

Interestingly, two of the most singular aspects of "What's Going On" that were extended to the album began as errors. The opening alto-sax solo by Eli Fontaine actually was a warm-up phrase for an overdub that Gaye decided to keep. And Gaye's harmonized duets with himself occurred when Ken Sands, the engineer, accidentally played back two of his vocal versions on one mono tape.

"Marvin would use that duet technique on many of his studio albums going forward," said Mr. Gordy, after we relocated to his spacious home office. "We called his love of overdubbing 'Marvin on top of Marvin on top of Marvin.' We also had a name for Marvin at Motown, but I can't remember it."

To jog his memory, Mr. Gordy reached over to his speakerphone and pressed a button. When a female voice answered, Mr. Gordy said, "Smokey, please." Within seconds, Mr. Robinson was on the line.

"We called him 'Dad,'" Mr. Robinson said. "He walked like an old man, with all the troubles he had with his feet."

After getting off the phone, Mr. Gordy laughed lovingly and shook his head. Then he looked across the room and grew serious, pointing to the largest color photo on the wood-paneled wall. It was a framed image of Mr. Gordy, Gaye and other top stars on stage at the televised "Motown 25" reunion concert in 1983, a year before the singer's death at age 44.

"I loved Marvin, and I think of 'What's Going On' as one of Motown's most prestigious singles and albums," Mr. Gordy said. "I thought those records would ruin him. Instead, they made him an icon."

[marv2]

it obviously really matters to Berry Gordy, who is still talking about it..
methinks thou dost protest too much...
I am not a fan of revisionist history when one half of the conversation is no longer around to participate

Jimi, it does matter, for historical accuracy! I remember Berry also said that he wasn't all that impressed with "Little" Stevie Wonder when Ronnie White brought him to Motown to audition. People that were also present at that audition tell another story. They say he was knocked out by Stevie and his incredible abilities!

[marv2]

up next;
Gordy explains that Florence Ballard really did leave The Supremes because she was tired and wanted to raise a family

Oh you need to quit! LOL! You know better to even go there, hehehehehehehe!!!!!

[simplysupreme]

Does it really matter now? The point is What's Going On was released and to this day it is still one of the most perfect albums [[in my opinion) ever recorded.

In total agrement.

[captainjames]

"What's Going On" is probably the best piece of creative work to come out of Motown.

Mr. Gaye was definitely on top of his game during this time. It was one of those records that everybody had no matter where you went. Now as far as the article that was written; the interview was similiar to the stories that have been told just not the same line for line.

[marv2]

Let's not forget my friend , Obie Benson had a little more than something to do with the song "What's Going On?"

"Gaye came in contact with musician Al Cleveland and the Four Tops' Renaldo "Obie" Benson, who were working on a politically conscious song called "What's Going On". Gaye assisted Cleveland and Benson in completing the composition, and planned to produce the song as a recording for the Motown act The Originals. However, Cleveland and Benson persuaded Gaye to record the song himself...."

[daddyacey]

I see your point Marv ,but I have to add my opinion that Marvin had a confidence issue , that I feel was compounded by the type of material that Q.C. and Berrys influence had over what was released by Marvin ,prior to the Tammi/Marvin production era.
As far back as "The Many Moods" album ,there was evidence of a riff between what Marvin wanted to do oppossed to what Berry wanted in HIT's and Marvins persona. Up until the pairing of he and Tammi ,he was at odds with his material that was released. He fought with Norman and others,"Yall allways cut this shit too high" ,while also working on his Vulnerable tracks and Orignial's ,Bobby Taylor and Miracles tracks. W.G.O. saw him stand his ground, and when you listen to the Detroit mix of the album compared to the final result you can see that in the Detroit mix that he took the ideas of Al Cleveland and the Four Tops' Renaldo "Obie" Benson, to another level ,and then took that ,to another level. I was describing the difference of the Detroit mix to the L.A. mix to a friend of mine. The Detroit mix is AHH!! The L.A. mix is AAAAAHHHHHH, Motherfucker!!!!!
The final W.G.O. is pure Marvin creativity. The strings ,horns ,chorus of voices ,multiple leads of Marvin himself, represent ,Doo-Wop ,Big Band influence and arrangement via David Van Petite , his vocal layers in the smooth style of Nat Cole and Frank Sinatra ,Gospel influence ,[[Don't go and talk about my father ,for GOD is my friend!!), in addition to the timeless message make this a Masterpiece ,in all true meaning of the word!!!)

[stephanie]

Marv
Are you siding with Berry G on this? Come on I know you better than that bro. I DO believe there may have been some urban legends regarding WGO but why is it Berry and Diana and others come out light years later to address these issues?
I know this is not the place to discuss this but even Ms Wilson admitted in her own book in 1986 Dreamgirl that she bucked the system and wore a red dress other than the black and white and she admitted she and Cindy stepped up in the dance steps and Im glad they did. It took Ms Depasse and others years before they would address or even make any comments about Motown 25. I say all this to say that when it come to Florence and NOW the Marvin Gaye album Whats Going On he wants to protect his legacy! If he could find a way to put himself in the mix of that album he would if he could find ONE thing he was responsible for in reference to that album he would. I have a lot of respect for Mr Gordy and what he has accomoplished but I think he is making that statement now because the popularity of this album is so huge and cant be denied that he wants to set the so called record straight. If he didnt care so much about it why the constant blocking of the Marvin Gaye story. Other than the Temps story that was not blocked because Paul, Eddie and David [[more so Paul and David) had their own personal demons to deal with and since Otis was a company man and Melvin went along with him there is no scar on Motown. Many generations have picked up on Marvin and Stevie more so than other acts on the label and
he wants to make sure his legacy is controlled. Generations have picked up on the Supremes since the Dreamgirl movie and play as well but lets face it Marvin is the one who ALL of the young people have picked up more so than Stevie Wonder. When Dreamgirl came out Smokey stepped up to the plate to let the world know Berry Gordy is not like that if Dreamgirls was not the Supremes story why defend it? I am not a conspiracy theory believer but in the case BG does not want to go down in history as being the one who almost stopped Whats Going On. I believe his part of the story where he says Marvin always came up with crazy ideas but then geniuses do. The music lives on but I did find the article interesting its one of the few times I saw him speak up and not Smokey this must mean a lot to him. I would believe it even more if he mentioned it 10 or 15 years ago.

[marv2]

Marv
Are you siding with Berry G on this? Come on I know you better than that bro. I DO believe there may have been some urban legends regarding WGO but why is it Berry and Diana and others come out light years later to address these issues?
I know this is not the place to discuss this but even Ms Wilson admitted in her own book in 1986 Dreamgirl that she bucked the system and wore a red dress other than the black and white and she admitted she and Cindy stepped up in the dance steps and Im glad they did. It took Ms Depasse and others years before they would address or even make any comments about Motown 25. I say all this to say that when it come to Florence and NOW the Marvin Gaye album Whats Going On he wants to protect his legacy! If he could find a way to put himself in the mix of that album he would if he could find ONE thing he was responsible for in reference to that album he would. I have a lot of respect for Mr Gordy and what he has accomoplished but I think he is making that statement now because the popularity of this album is so huge and cant be denied that he wants to set the so called record straight. If he didnt care so much about it why the constant blocking of the Marvin Gaye story. Other than the Temps story that was not blocked because Paul, Eddie and David [[more so Paul and David) had their own personal demons to deal with and since Otis was a company man and Melvin went along with him there is no scar on Motown. Many generations have picked up on Marvin and Stevie more so than other acts on the label and
he wants to make sure his legacy is controlled. Generations have picked up on the Supremes since the Dreamgirl movie and play as well but lets face it Marvin is the one who ALL of the young people have picked up more so than Stevie Wonder. When Dreamgirl came out Smokey stepped up to the plate to let the world know Berry Gordy is not like that if Dreamgirls was not the Supremes story why defend it? I am not a conspiracy theory believer but in the case BG does not want to go down in history as being the one who almost stopped Whats Going On. I believe his part of the story where he says Marvin always came up with crazy ideas but then geniuses do. The music lives on but I did find the article interesting its one of the few times I saw him speak up and not Smokey this must mean a lot to him. I would believe it even more if he mentioned it 10 or 15 years ago.




Stephanie, me siding with Berry on this? Not a chance! I wished I could say some things that I really know, but cannot in this public forum.

[marv2]

Stephanie, which part made you conclude that I was siding with Berry's story?

[kenneth]

Stephanie, I totally agree with you. Also, what is so odd about Gordy's defensive comments is that he compares Marvin's vision for "What's Going On" to his wanting to be a Detroit Lion and some of his other "crazy ideas" which had nothing to do with his music. Would Gordy compare Gaye's dream to be an NFL player to a concept for an album that Gordy just couldn't connect with?

There's an interesting bit in one of the books about Motown. I forget which one. But the writer is pointing out that Gordy was so unaware of world events that he didn't even know that Hitler had been responsible for the Holocaust. I mean 70 years later you might understand why some young people might not be aware of it, but in the 1960s, not even 20 years after the events, that's pretty amazing for someone like Gordy at the time. So it's not hard to imagine that his own "vision" of what music was, was strictly for entertainment.

Come to think of it, Gordy had his own share of "crazy ideas," like wanting to be a major Hollywood producer. If you think about it, after his few initial [[albeit amazing) successes, the Motown Hollywood legacy was pretty...well...better left to those in the business.

[stephanie]

My bad Marv. I cant quite explain it but there was something I read and it was the way I read it that made me think you were taking BG's side and I said "that is not the Marv I know". One of the comments where you said it does matter but you were not alluding to Berrys opinion and I thought you were. When I saw Jims comment about Flo and you responded I realized I made a mistake...LOL Sorry.

[stephanie]

One thing I forgot to mention that some may find interesting is when I did my interview with Elaine Jesmer she said that symphony orchestras and conductors labeled Marvin as a genius which I found interesting. A lot of people dont know that this man was a great arranger along the likes of Barry White. RIP Marvin.

[marv2]

My bad Marv. I cant quite explain it but there was something I read and it was the way I read it that made me think you were taking BG's side and I said "that is not the Marv I know". One of the comments where you said it does matter but you were not alluding to Berrys opinion and I thought you were. When I saw Jims comment about Flo and you responded I realized I made a mistake...LOL Sorry.

Oh no problem. I do that sometime, especially if I have not had my coffee, hehehehehe....

[marv2]

Kenneth, very good post. Love and respect are not the same thing. I believe Berry loved Marvin Gaye. However, I am not so sure how much he respected him..........

[skooldem1]

What did Berry say that was a lie, or spinning, or different then what has been said before? It just seems that he was just giving details of the general story that has been going around for years.

[kenneth]

Kenneth, very good post. Love and respect are not the same thing. I believe Berry loved Marvin Gaye. However, I am not so sure how much he respected him..........

Thanks Marv2.

[stephanie]

Skool I hope I can answer this question correctly. Since Marv and Ken and I are on the same plane I would hope they would chime in and add/or correct me if possible. Its not so much what BG is saying its the time frame! When it comes to things that happen at Motown I have a tendency to want to hear from people like Katherine Anderson, one of the Funk Brothers, or the Marvelettes or the Velvelettes. If you read any book regarding the sessions or what went on BG was against it. Look at the pattern Diana admits in her book in 1994,,LOL that the Andantes were doing background on most of the songs in 1968 and up when Cindy joined [[although we know Mary and Cindy were on songs with the Temps and some of the album cuts, Raymoma tells us that Rhonda Ross is BG's daughter and Diana tells us years later on Oprah that Rhonda is Berrys daughter. I never knew BG offered Flo a solo contact at Motown until years later when his book came out! Unless I have not seen it nobody has addressed the topic of why the Marvellettes were not invited to Motown 25 and there have been YEARS of waiting by the fans. I know this because there are tons of Marvelettes fans to this day wondering why and they want to know. Which brings me to Whats Going On. When all of these things are being written and you want the public to know the truth when the topic is hot why wait so long? He was the president of the company I can see why some of the acts may have waited a while to speak up but not him.

If Berry didnt want to be the villian in the Flo Ballard story why didnt he speak up then and a couple of years after her passing announce to the world that he offered her a solo contract? Suzanne Depasse says its an urban legend that Diana pushed Mary Wilson at Motown 25 if thats true why is the tape spliced. Show us the unspliced tape and give your version of what appears to be someone pushing somebody. They didnt want to tarnish Ms Ross's image. Mary never lied about taking the lead and taking the mike or about wearing the red dress or going off of the script and mentioning Flo and Paul during the tapings that didnt make it on tv. I hate to get off of the music and I normally dont respond to things like this but it has always been a thorn in my side to see artists that have made this company rich get the short end of the stick or when the truth is not told about them. I still want to see someone in the Motown camp address the issue of why Jamerson was not given a free pass into Motown 25. Berry should just come out and say he was wrong he didnt want this thing to be promoted but because of Marvins genius he made Motown even richer. Since he offered Flo a solo contract at Motown he could have elaborated on why she didnt take it and he would have been the hero. No he said he wanted to protect Flo [[which I do believe but he wanted to protect Motown too) when they said Flo left due to exhaustion because back then it was not kosher to talk about or deal with alcoholism. Im going to get off of my soapbox but when it comes to all things Motown I will believe musicians and those who are not in the spotlight as much before I believe anything the A list has to say.

[stephanie]

Interesting Marvin Gaye Interview
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgWnwa8XrRE&feature=related

[RossHolloway]

Skool I hope I can answer this question correctly. Since Marv and Ken and I are on the same plane I would hope they would chime in and add/or correct me if possible. Its not so much what BG is saying its the time frame! When it comes to things that happen at Motown I have a tendency to want to hear from people like Katherine Anderson, one of the Funk Brothers, or the Marvelettes or the Velvelettes. If you read any book regarding the sessions or what went on BG was against it. Look at the pattern Diana admits in her book in 1994,,LOL that the Andantes were doing background on most of the songs in 1968 and up when Cindy joined [[although we know Mary and Cindy were on songs with the Temps and some of the album cuts, Raymoma tells us that Rhonda Ross is BG's daughter and Diana tells us years later on Oprah that Rhonda is Berrys daughter. I never knew BG offered Flo a solo contact at Motown until years later when his book came out! Unless I have not seen it nobody has addressed the topic of why the Marvellettes were not invited to Motown 25 and there have been YEARS of waiting by the fans. I know this because there are tons of Marvelettes fans to this day wondering why and they want to know. Which brings me to Whats Going On. When all of these things are being written and you want the public to know the truth when the topic is hot why wait so long? He was the president of the company I can see why some of the acts may have waited a while to speak up but not him.

If Berry didnt want to be the villian in the Flo Ballard story why didnt he speak up then and a couple of years after her passing announce to the world that he offered her a solo contract? Suzanne Depasse says its an urban legend that Diana pushed Mary Wilson at Motown 25 if thats true why is the tape spliced. Show us the unspliced tape and give your version of what appears to be someone pushing somebody. They didnt want to tarnish Ms Ross's image. Mary never lied about taking the lead and taking the mike or about wearing the red dress or going off of the script and mentioning Flo and Paul during the tapings that didnt make it on tv. I hate to get off of the music and I normally dont respond to things like this but it has always been a thorn in my side to see artists that have made this company rich get the short end of the stick or when the truth is not told about them. I still want to see someone in the Motown camp address the issue of why Jamerson was not given a free pass into Motown 25. Berry should just come out and say he was wrong he didnt want this thing to be promoted but because of Marvins genius he made Motown even richer. Since he offered Flo a solo contract at Motown he could have elaborated on why she didnt take it and he would have been the hero. No he said he wanted to protect Flo [[which I do believe but he wanted to protect Motown too) when they said Flo left due to exhaustion because back then it was not kosher to talk about or deal with alcoholism. Im going to get off of my soapbox but when it comes to all things Motown I will believe musicians and those who are not in the spotlight as much before I believe anything the A list has to say.

So where do you come down on the whole Marvin-Tammi-Valerie Simpson mystery? Do you believe Marvin who is on record of having stated that Valerie sang with him. Or do you believe Nic and Val, and Motown in stating that it's Tammi singing on all their duets?

[stephanie]

I believe Marvin and I will tell you why. I have heard over the years that some of the logs dont have Tammis name in them and I saw this comment on youtube below. Also I can remember hearing some clips off of the Easy album and the voice didnt sound like Tammi to me [[just like as a child I heard Andantes and I knew this was not the Supremes) I think I first experienced that on Love Child. Anyway I love Valerie Simpson but maybe its like the Andantes she thinks she sang on this or that but Val is a producer so I would expect her to know. Most people dont think its Tammi but here is the comment.

I dont see why Marvin would have any reason to lie I think he would prefer to say its Tammi on that Easy album with him.
Steph

Marvin Gaye and Tammi Terrell were the most successful duo by the late 60's with such hits as "Ain't No Mountain High Enough," "Your Precious Love," and "If I Could Build My Whole World Around You." However by 1969, Tammi Terrell was too ill from her brain tumor and she could no longer perform and record. In order to pay for her treatments, Motown decided to release a third album of duets by Marvin and Tammi, however Tammi only appeared on two tracks on the album. According to Marvin Gaye, Valerie Simpson subbed for Tammi, although Valerie Simpson denies this. Regardless, this song became a huge hit in England in early 1970, just shortly after Tammi's death. Here is Marvin Gaye & Valerie Simpson singing the strange, yet enjoyable "onion" song.

Written by: Nicholas Ashford & Valerie Simpson
Produced by: Nicholas Ashford & Valerie Simpson
Arranged by: Paul Riser
Track recorded: January 25, 1969 - originally assigned to Diana Ross & The Supremes
Horns and strings recorded: January 26, 1969
Demo vocal recorded: January 26, 1969
Additional vocal recorded: January 27, 1969
Marvin Gaye's lead vocal recorded: March 15, 1969
vocal recorded: March 17, 1969

****No copyright infringement intended****

Category:
Music

Tags:
Marvin GayeTammi TerrellMotown60'sAshford & Simpson
License:
Standard YouTube License
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Artist: Marvin Gaye
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Uploader Comments [[MotownConnoisseur30)
Valerie Simpson said it herself, that in the initial stages of recording the album [[while Tammi in hospital) that she did provide the vocals for the song, but when Tammi would return, she would sing the song
Spadesz93 6 months ago
@Spadesz93 I tend not to believe what Valerie says. Tammi was far too ill to go back into the studio and record a full song, even a full album. Even the recording logs don't say that Tammi was there during these recordings. It lists when Marvin recorded his vocals, but everything else is "Vocals recorded.." Plus, in all previous recordings, Marvin always referred to Tammi in song, but during these recordings, he doesn't say her name.
MotownConnoisseur30 6 months ago

[marv2]

Skool I hope I can answer this question correctly. Since Marv and Ken and I are on the same plane I would hope they would chime in and add/or correct me if possible. Its not so much what BG is saying its the time frame! When it comes to things that happen at Motown I have a tendency to want to hear from people like Katherine Anderson, one of the Funk Brothers, or the Marvelettes or the Velvelettes. If you read any book regarding the sessions or what went on BG was against it. Look at the pattern Diana admits in her book in 1994,,LOL that the Andantes were doing background on most of the songs in 1968 and up when Cindy joined [[although we know Mary and Cindy were on songs with the Temps and some of the album cuts, Raymoma tells us that Rhonda Ross is BG's daughter and Diana tells us years later on Oprah that Rhonda is Berrys daughter. I never knew BG offered Flo a solo contact at Motown until years later when his book came out! Unless I have not seen it nobody has addressed the topic of why the Marvellettes were not invited to Motown 25 and there have been YEARS of waiting by the fans. I know this because there are tons of Marvelettes fans to this day wondering why and they want to know. Which brings me to Whats Going On. When all of these things are being written and you want the public to know the truth when the topic is hot why wait so long? He was the president of the company I can see why some of the acts may have waited a while to speak up but not him.

If Berry didnt want to be the villian in the Flo Ballard story why didnt he speak up then and a couple of years after her passing announce to the world that he offered her a solo contract? Suzanne Depasse says its an urban legend that Diana pushed Mary Wilson at Motown 25 if thats true why is the tape spliced. Show us the unspliced tape and give your version of what appears to be someone pushing somebody. They didnt want to tarnish Ms Ross's image. Mary never lied about taking the lead and taking the mike or about wearing the red dress or going off of the script and mentioning Flo and Paul during the tapings that didnt make it on tv. I hate to get off of the music and I normally dont respond to things like this but it has always been a thorn in my side to see artists that have made this company rich get the short end of the stick or when the truth is not told about them. I still want to see someone in the Motown camp address the issue of why Jamerson was not given a free pass into Motown 25. Berry should just come out and say he was wrong he didnt want this thing to be promoted but because of Marvins genius he made Motown even richer. Since he offered Flo a solo contract at Motown he could have elaborated on why she didnt take it and he would have been the hero. No he said he wanted to protect Flo [[which I do believe but he wanted to protect Motown too) when they said Flo left due to exhaustion because back then it was not kosher to talk about or deal with alcoholism. Im going to get off of my soapbox but when it comes to all things Motown I will believe musicians and those who are not in the spotlight as much before I believe anything the A list has to say.

Kat told me about Motown 25 and the Marvelettes not being invited. I have been told a lot things by a lot of people directly involved in making the music over the years. They tell me things because they know I have no intention of exploiting them in any way. I don't go around posing as a self professed "expert". Most of these people are hometown people that surprisingly want their stories told. It's just too bad they no one can tell it "ALL" because I can promise you, some people would not be able to take it.

Stephanie you do make several good points. One of the main one is why do some of these individuals wait decades for giving their side of things? Why wait years to claim what happened at Motown 25 did not happen unless you are lying?

[marv2]

So where do you come down on the whole Marvin-Tammi-Valerie Simpson mystery? Do you believe Marvin who is on record of having stated that Valerie sang with him. Or do you believe Nic and Val, and Motown in stating that it's Tammi singing on all their duets?

Years and years ago I heard that Tammi was too ill to complete that last album with Marvin Gaye and so Valerie Simpson subbed for her in the recording studio on some of the songs. More recently, I heard Valerie declare that it was not her, but all Tammi. She stated this in a videotaped interview that I have to track down again.

[marv2]

I believe Marvin and I will tell you why. I have heard over the years that some of the logs dont have Tammis name in them and I saw this comment on youtube below. Also I can remember hearing some clips off of the Easy album and the voice didnt sound like Tammi to me [[just like as a child I heard Andantes and I knew this was not the Supremes) I think I first experienced that on Love Child. Anyway I love Valerie Simpson but maybe its like the Andantes she thinks she sang on this or that but Val is a producer so I would expect her to know. Most people dont think its Tammi but here is the comment.

I dont see why Marvin would have any reason to lie I think he would prefer to say its Tammi on that Easy album with him.
Steph

Marvin Gaye and Tammi Terrell were the most successful duo by the late 60's with such hits as "Ain't No Mountain High Enough," "Your Precious Love," and "If I Could Build My Whole World Around You." However by 1969, Tammi Terrell was too ill from her brain tumor and she could no longer perform and record. In order to pay for her treatments, Motown decided to release a third album of duets by Marvin and Tammi, however Tammi only appeared on two tracks on the album. According to Marvin Gaye, Valerie Simpson subbed for Tammi, although Valerie Simpson denies this. Regardless, this song became a huge hit in England in early 1970, just shortly after Tammi's death. Here is Marvin Gaye & Valerie Simpson singing the strange, yet enjoyable "onion" song.

Written by: Nicholas Ashford & Valerie Simpson
Produced by: Nicholas Ashford & Valerie Simpson
Arranged by: Paul Riser
Track recorded: January 25, 1969 - originally assigned to Diana Ross & The Supremes
Horns and strings recorded: January 26, 1969
Demo vocal recorded: January 26, 1969
Additional vocal recorded: January 27, 1969
Marvin Gaye's lead vocal recorded: March 15, 1969
vocal recorded: March 17, 1969

****No copyright infringement intended****

Category:
Music

Tags:
Marvin GayeTammi TerrellMotown60'sAshford & Simpson
License:
Standard YouTube License
90 likes, 2 dislikes
Artist: Marvin Gaye
Buy "The Onion Song" on: AmazonMP3, iTunes Show more
Show less Link to this comment: Share to:
Uploader Comments [[MotownConnoisseur30)
Valerie Simpson said it herself, that in the initial stages of recording the album [[while Tammi in hospital) that she did provide the vocals for the song, but when Tammi would return, she would sing the song
Spadesz93 6 months ago
@Spadesz93 I tend not to believe what Valerie says. Tammi was far too ill to go back into the studio and record a full song, even a full album. Even the recording logs don't say that Tammi was there during these recordings. It lists when Marvin recorded his vocals, but everything else is "Vocals recorded.." Plus, in all previous recordings, Marvin always referred to Tammi in song, but during these recordings, he doesn't say her name.
MotownConnoisseur30 6 months ago

Stephanie, I was on a flight with Valerie last year. We boarded together and right in the middle of the aisle, I turned to her and said "Valerie, how are you?" She smiles and laughs and says I'm not her, I am really not. People think that all the time"! LOL! I let it go at that.

[RossHolloway]

I believe Marvin and I will tell you why. I have heard over the years that some of the logs dont have Tammis name in them and I saw this comment on youtube below. Also I can remember hearing some clips off of the Easy album and the voice didnt sound like Tammi to me [[just like as a child I heard Andantes and I knew this was not the Supremes) I think I first experienced that on Love Child. Anyway I love Valerie Simpson but maybe its like the Andantes she thinks she sang on this or that but Val is a producer so I would expect her to know. Most people dont think its Tammi but here is the comment.

I dont see why Marvin would have any reason to lie I think he would prefer to say its Tammi on that Easy album with him.
Steph

Marvin Gaye and Tammi Terrell were the most successful duo by the late 60's with such hits as "Ain't No Mountain High Enough," "Your Precious Love," and "If I Could Build My Whole World Around You." However by 1969, Tammi Terrell was too ill from her brain tumor and she could no longer perform and record. In order to pay for her treatments, Motown decided to release a third album of duets by Marvin and Tammi, however Tammi only appeared on two tracks on the album. According to Marvin Gaye, Valerie Simpson subbed for Tammi, although Valerie Simpson denies this. Regardless, this song became a huge hit in England in early 1970, just shortly after Tammi's death. Here is Marvin Gaye & Valerie Simpson singing the strange, yet enjoyable "onion" song.

Written by: Nicholas Ashford & Valerie Simpson
Produced by: Nicholas Ashford & Valerie Simpson
Arranged by: Paul Riser
Track recorded: January 25, 1969 - originally assigned to Diana Ross & The Supremes
Horns and strings recorded: January 26, 1969
Demo vocal recorded: January 26, 1969
Additional vocal recorded: January 27, 1969
Marvin Gaye's lead vocal recorded: March 15, 1969
vocal recorded: March 17, 1969

****No copyright infringement intended****

Category:
Music

Tags:
Marvin GayeTammi TerrellMotown60'sAshford & Simpson
License:
Standard YouTube License
90 likes, 2 dislikes
Artist: Marvin Gaye
Buy "The Onion Song" on: AmazonMP3, iTunes Show more
Show less Link to this comment: Share to:
Uploader Comments [[MotownConnoisseur30)
Valerie Simpson said it herself, that in the initial stages of recording the album [[while Tammi in hospital) that she did provide the vocals for the song, but when Tammi would return, she would sing the song
Spadesz93 6 months ago
@Spadesz93 I tend not to believe what Valerie says. Tammi was far too ill to go back into the studio and record a full song, even a full album. Even the recording logs don't say that Tammi was there during these recordings. It lists when Marvin recorded his vocals, but everything else is "Vocals recorded.." Plus, in all previous recordings, Marvin always referred to Tammi in song, but during these recordings, he doesn't say her name.
MotownConnoisseur30 6 months ago

Well I tend to think that it's Valerie too, but I also think she started singing for Tammi way before the Easy album. One piece of the puzzle that strikes me to this day is when a couple of years ago I went to download the Marvin and Tammi two disc collection into my I-Pod and some of the songs were listed not as Marvin and Tammi, but Marvin and Valerie Simpson! Now only Motown/Universal could have been responsible for that. Plus, if Berry Gordy had the Andantes subbing for the Supremes-one of the largest and most popular groups in the world, why would it be beyond Motown to sub in Valerie for Tammi? Plus when you just look at the time line of things and Tammi's health it just lends further weight to the fact that Valerie was doing the singing. Aside from their first album, United, and the solo Tammi tracks that were made into duets, Valerie is singing on most of those songs. Between the time that she fell ill in [[October) 1967 until her untimely death in March 1970, Tammi had something like 7 different brain surgeries. And I may be wrong it could have been 9 surgeries, and this was stated on the Unsung episode that was done on Tammi last year. SEVEN different surgeries, and we are to not question her physical health and ability to travel to Detroit and record two albums between 1968-69? Also another interesting note from Tammi's recent Anthology is that the last solo track that she recorded was in November 1967. A full two and a half years before she passed. So why no other solo tracks recorded during this time frame, besides the obvious reasons? And if you just listen to the material that we know for a fact to be Tammi singing, like all the tracks from her Anthology and the United album, which was recorded before she fell ill AND then listen to You're All I Need to Get By and the Easy album it becomes easily obvious which tracks Valerie sings on. It really becomes as bright as the sun. Ever wonder why the Nic and Val album they recorded in the early 1970's has not been released and NEVER will be released? My guess is that Valerie is sounding much too like Tammi Terrell on those tracks...Plus consider this, who would make more money for Motown? Marvin and Tammi? Or Marvin and Valerie Simpson?

[kenneth]

RossHolloway, that is amazing that some of the songs were listed in Itunes as by Marvin Gaye and Valerie Simpson. Unbelievable.

I remember buying the "Easy" album when it first came out and wondering why Tammi's voice sounded so heavy and exaggerated, except on the couple cuts which even then I knew were her solo recordings with Marvin's voice added. "I Can't Believe You Love Me," was one on that album; I can't recall the other. Even way back then, I noticed a huge difference, the tracks which I believe were Simpson were almost like a bad Mae West kind of impersonation in song, they were so overwrought. Of course, I never suspected it wasn't Tammi singing. Hey, this was years before I even knew about the Andantes or that only Wanda was pictured on the cover of the "Return of the Marvelettes" album!

Even on the Hip-O Solo Collection, they more or less sidestep the issue, while mentioning that Simpson still claims it is Tammi and one of Tammi's relatives [[a sister maybe?) saying it was a "woven tapestry of both voices" or some malarkey like that.

The reviewer who noted the tape logs from the company was extremely astute, and those tape logs tell quite the story, in my opinion as well.

In addition, on the Tammi Terrell Solo Collection, you will find that most of the second Gaye/Terrell LP "You're All I Need," existed first as solo tracks by Tammi, which stayed in the can until again [[though before "Easy," naturally) Gaye's voice was added to make them duets. She was ill by that time; I believe the liner notes on the back cover even refer to her illness.

So it's quite strange that as for "Easy," none of the songs exist as solo turns for Tammi, except 1 or 2 which were actually released as Tammi solos. Obviously, Motown was scraping the bottom of the barrel by this time to try and complete an album.

All these things have to mean that Simpson did the vocals for "Easy." Marvin Gaye, who certainly had no reason to lie about it, also confirmed that to his biographer, David Ritz. This takes nothing away from Valerie Simpson; according to Gaye, they did it so Tammi's family would make some money. But as others such as Stephanie have noted, why perpetuate the myth after all these years?

[RossHolloway]

RossHolloway, that is amazing that some of the songs were listed in Itunes as by Marvin Gaye and Valerie Simpson. Unbelievable.

I remember buying the "Easy" album when it first came out and wondering why Tammi's voice sounded so heavy and exaggerated, except on the couple cuts which even then I knew were her solo recordings with Marvin's voice added. "I Can't Believe You Love Me," was one on that album; I can't recall the other. Even way back then, I noticed a huge difference, the tracks which I believe were Simpson were almost like a bad Mae West kind of impersonation in song, they were so overwrought. Of course, I never suspected it wasn't Tammi singing. Hey, this was years before I even knew about the Andantes or that only Wanda was pictured on the cover of the "Return of the Marvelettes" album!

Even on the Hip-O Solo Collection, they more or less sidestep the issue, while mentioning that Simpson still claims it is Tammi and one of Tammi's relatives [[a sister maybe?) saying it was a "woven tapestry of both voices" or some malarkey like that.

The reviewer who noted the tape logs from the company was extremely astute, and those tape logs tell quite the story, in my opinion as well.

In addition, on the Tammi Terrell Solo Collection, you will find that most of the second Gaye/Terrell LP "You're All I Need," existed first as solo tracks by Tammi, which stayed in the can until again [[though before "Easy," naturally) Gaye's voice was added to make them duets. She was ill by that time; I believe the liner notes on the back cover even refer to her illness.

So it's quite strange that as for "Easy," none of the songs exist as solo turns for Tammi, except 1 or 2 which were actually released as Tammi solos. Obviously, Motown was scraping the bottom of the barrel by this time to try and complete an album.

All these things have to mean that Simpson did the vocals for "Easy." Marvin Gaye, who certainly had no reason to lie about it, also confirmed that to his biographer, David Ritz. This takes nothing away from Valerie Simpson; according to Gaye, they did it so Tammi's family would make some money. But as others such as Stephanie have noted, why perpetuate the myth after all these years?

I will have to go back and list the songs that came up credited to Marvin and Valerie, it was quite astonishing to see when it first happened. I guess I can understand why it was done and why they are sticking to their story and 40+ years later, it changes nothing, in my mind at least, about how I feel about all those involved. But go back and even listen to You're All I Need and see if you hear Tammi or Val or both.. What I also don't quite understand is why the track We'll Be Satisfied was left off their 3 albums, and it's a great track! And I've never read or heard of Berry Gordy ever being asked about the Tammi-Valerie rumors, but it sure would be interesting to hear what he has to say about it. And again as you think about it, Tammi had 7 brain surgeries, not 7 head colds, but 7 brain surgeries. When would she have been able to mend, go to Detroit and record music? Like I said before, if Motown was brave enough to substitute singers in for their best selling artist, The Supremes, why would they hesitate to do it for an ailing Tammi Terrell?

[Jimi LaLumia]

first off, the push/shove Supremes @ Motown 25 was reported on in daily newspapers,People Magazine[["the audience gasped"),etc by people who were there!..no urban myth there, bay-bee, nothing but the truth...
and Gordy just wanted to sell records and stars; Ross was his star,and whether "supremes' was mary & cindy or actually andantes,Gordy figured the average man in the street that might buy a 45 couldn't care less who the non STAR players were on the record, as long as it sounded fabulous...he was selling dreams, not reality..
the same applies to the Tammi/Val mystery..

[jobeterob]

There was a long thread on here about what Valerie sang on. There was an attempt to save it in platinum threads but there was trouble saving anything at the time ~ but it is probably archived somewhere.

Valerie was on a lot of songs starting pretty early on; it's accepted as Motown fact by those that care about these things much like the fact that the Supremes were effectively over in 1967 and those that were part of it did a lot of pretending otherwise because it was in their interest to do so.

I don't see a lot of significance in Berry talking about a landmark at this stage and there's nothing new in this. Berry is an old man reminiscing and What's Going On is a landmark album from a troubled artist and relative of Berry's. And the media tries to put an interesting spin on it.

It is the most obvious thing to expect.

And you can't expect the media to focus on the minor artists, no matter how much hardcore Motown fans love them. The public does not know individual Tops and Supremes and Contours and Marvelettes but they do know the iconic What's Going On album and the troubled life of Marvin Gaye.

[Jimi LaLumia]

well, the public knew one Supreme enough to make her books best sellers,still talked about and quoted,and revisited again a few years ago when the Dreamgirls film was being released..
in fact whenever Dreamgirls is wriiten about to this day, something to the effect of "Thinly veiled story of The Supremes" usually appears in the first paragraph, so it's now a given for millions to be a Supremes biography of sorts, right or wrong..

[jobeterob]

I know it's a pill most Supremes fans don't like to take, but beyond Diana, none of them have any public presence anymore. And Diana's is far from what it was in it's Central Park/Endless Love heyday.

And beyond Smokey, Lionel, Diana, and Stevie the artist presence is not very significant.

The music is.

[kenneth]

Years and years ago I heard that Tammi was too ill to complete that last album with Marvin Gaye and so Valerie Simpson subbed for her in the recording studio on some of the songs. More recently, I heard Valerie declare that it was not her, but all Tammi. She stated this in a videotaped interview that I have to track down again.

Marv2, From the Wikipedia entry on "Easy," it sounds like the interview might have been in the Unsung series on Tammi Terrell, which unfortunately I didn't see.

[marv2]

well, the public knew one Supreme enough to make her books best sellers,still talked about and quoted,and revisited again a few years ago when the Dreamgirls film was being released..
in fact whenever Dreamgirls is wriiten about to this day, something to the effect of "Thinly veiled story of The Supremes" usually appears in the first paragraph, so it's now a given for millions to be a Supremes biography of sorts, right or wrong..

They knew one Supreme well enough to sell out her opening night in Vegas the other night at the Riveria! Why would they do that if they still don't know who she is? LOL!!!!

[Jimi LaLumia]

Go tell it on the mountain,Marv...!!!

[marv2]

I know it's a pill most Supremes fans don't like to take, but beyond Diana, none of them have any public presence anymore. And Diana's is far from what it was in it's Central Park/Endless Love heyday.

And beyond Smokey, Lionel, Diana, and Stevie the artist presence is not very significant.

The music is.

No, it is a pill that you seem desparately intent on forcing down the throats of the public. I don't know exactly what the deal is with the public up there where you are in B.C. Canada, but I do know that you can include Mary Wilson [[and several others including Martha Reeves, Gladys Knight and the Jacksons) to that list of very well known Motown stars. Heck, she was just on here again in New York hosting one of T.J Lubinsky's television specials last weekend!

Interestingly, they know her well enough in Canada to make it possible for her to tour for a full year as the star of the play "Beehive" in 1988 apart from her concert appearances there. Would you like to discuss Russia next?

[marv2]

Go tell it on the mountain,Marv...!!!

I am just stating the truth [[.......in order to shame the devil!). I mean none of them are at the tops of the charts anymore but they have now reached and a few are still maintaining a decent level of visibility much in the way Frank Sinatra, Sammy Davis, Lena Horne and other majors stars of the post WWII Generation did for many years past their peak record sales popularity. I've heard the term "LEGENDS" used more than once..........

[Jimi LaLumia]

I'm on your side!...pick team members,we'll play kick ball..

[marv2]

well, the public knew one Supreme enough to make her books best sellers,still talked about and quoted,and revisited again a few years ago when the Dreamgirls film was being released..
in fact whenever Dreamgirls is wriiten about to this day, something to the effect of "Thinly veiled story of The Supremes" usually appears in the first paragraph, so it's now a given for millions to be a Supremes biography of sorts, right or wrong..

"THAT BOOK" is also used as required reading in some Pop Culture and African American Studies curriculums at Colleges & Universities here in the U.S. It can be found in nearly every library in the U.S. and Canada!

[marv2]

Marv2, From the Wikipedia entry on "Easy," it sounds like the interview might have been in the Unsung series on Tammi Terrell, which unfortunately I didn't see.

Kenneth, maybe that is where I saw it. It has to still be uploaded somewhere. If I can find it , I will let you know.

[Jimi LaLumia]

and by the way, Diana's heyday was from 1965 to 1969[[and I am a Ross fan, but I'm just telling it like it is..
from 1970 on,for the next decade and a half,she glided and eventually coasted on the capital she raised as
the leader of the most popular American pop group of the 1960's...

[marv2]

I'm on your side!...pick team members,we'll play kick ball..

Ok, we'll take Stephanie, Ralph and Daddyacey for starters! hehehehehe....

[Jimi LaLumia]

Marv, I just realized you have over 7,000 posts!...ai yi yi!!!

[marv2]

and by the way, Diana's heyday was from 1965 to 1969[[and I am a Ross fan, but I'm just telling it like it is..
from 1970 on,for the next decade and a half,she glided and eventually coasted on the capital she raised as
the leader of the most popular American pop group of the 1960's...

...and there's nothing at all wrong with that, just don't make out like everyone else at Motown were just a bunch of slugs and deadbeats! I mean what was I spending my money on all these years?

[marv2]

Marv, I just realized you have over 7,000 posts!...ai yi yi!!!

Jimi in reality, I actually have well over 10,000 if you include my postings from when I first joined SDF in late 2003! I had to start over at one point.......

[Jimi LaLumia]

we love the passion!

[marv2]

When exactly was the last time anyone heard about or from Lionel Ritchie?

[Jimi LaLumia]

didn't he host Motown 40 with Kelly Rowland & the Supremes?....lol

[marv2]

didn't he host Motown 40 with Kelly Rowland & the Supremes?....lol

But wasn't that like 10 years ago or something? LOL!

[Jimi LaLumia]

Exactly!........

[daddyacey]

Ahhhh , the Tammi/Marvin/Valerie question makes its yearly appearence here. And again I will post this link as food for thought
on this subject. As I respect the insight of my fellow SDF members ,I will leave it up to you all to draw your opinions from this article ,and pay close attention to the dates mentioned. This article was from Nov 1969 ,which means it was written around Oct. Important because of the line, "has not recorded for 2 years".
This is why I love this space and you people and our conversations/exchange of ideas and opinions.
Team Marv in the hizzouse!!! :D:D

http://books.google.com/books?id=ZFDqAUi7h-QC&pg=PA94&dq=Tammi+Terrell&hl=en&ei=RNgGTtnHCMHYgAeu0YG9DQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=Tammi%20Terrell&f=false

[kenneth]

What a beautiful article and what amazing photographs of Tammi. If you go back to the beginning of the magazine, on one of the first pages you'll see a full page ad for Motown's latest releases, including "Easy" [[which oddly credits it only to Marvin Gaye!), Supremes and Temptations "Together" and the Marvelettes "In Full Bloom."

I notice in the article it says that she had returned to the studio "last Spring" which would have been March or April of 1969 which was about 6 months prior to this November 1969 issue of Ebony coming out. "Easy" was already released; according to Wikipedia, "Easy" was released on September 16, 1969. So from this timeline she certainly could have contributed to some of the vocals. Perhaps we'll never know the whole story.

Also very nice to learn that Gordy paid for all the medical care and she thanks him wholeheartedly for it, even stating she didn't even know the cost.

Thanks so much for posting this, Daddyacey! What a great find.

[RossHolloway]

Ahhhh , the Tammi/Marvin/Valerie question makes its yearly appearence here. And again I will post this link as food for thought
on this subject. As I respect the insight of my fellow SDF members ,I will leave it up to you all to draw your opinions from this article ,and pay close attention to the dates mentioned. This article was from Nov 1969 ,which means it was written around Oct. Important because of the line, "has not recorded for 2 years".
This is why I love this space and you people and our conversations/exchange of ideas and opinions.
Team Marv in the hizzouse!!! :D:D

http://books.google.com/books?id=ZFDqAUi7h-QC&pg=PA94&dq=Tammi+Terrell&hl=en&ei=RNgGTtnHCMHYgAeu0YG9DQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=Tammi%20Terrell&f=false

I do remember reading that article now. But had forgotten the part of her being engaged to D. Ruffin only to find out later that he was already married! But two years....interesting. Sounds to me like the mystery has been solved. I wonder what Valerie Simpson has to say about that?

[marv2]

I also remember that article and the pictures from back then and seeing it again years later. You are right Daddy, if she had recorded in two years by the time of this article that would have put her last studio sessions at around
Aug.-Oct 1967!!!

Kenneth great points. From April to Sept 1969 is not a whole time to complete recording and the release of the album even if she was in the best of health!

[rod_rick]

One thing I noticed about the Ebony article, first it said Tammi was returning to the studio after a NEARLY TWO YEAR absent. Then further down it stated that she recorded last spring. So was that the spring of 69 or spring of 68?

[kenneth]

One thing I noticed about the Ebony article, first it said Tammi was returning to the studio after a NEARLY TWO YEAR absent. Then further down it stated that she recorded last spring. So was that the spring of 69 or spring of 68?

That would have meant Spring of '69. I was musing on that up above. "Last spring" would mean earlier in the year; if they meant 1968, I think they would have written "Spring of last year." So I think they meant she hadn't recorded for 2 years prior to "last Spring," which would mean March or April of 1967. The recording sessions for "Easy" seem to have been made, at least some of them, in the March-April time frame, such as referred to in the recording notes from the other poster above. But even in that specific excerpt it only shows Gaye's vocal in the later time frame, and the other vocals much earlier in the year. Of course that was only one track.

Regardless, a November magazine probably hit the stands in late September or early October at the latest. "Easy" was released in September of 1969 and is advertised in the same magazine early in the issue. So I think it is possible she contributed to some of the vocals. I've waxed and waned on this issue some, but I think I'm going to conclude there were a few recording sessions conducted with her, but that based on the quality and her stamina, Simpson ended up doing most if not all of the vocals which were ultimately released as "Easy." The final test is the recordings themselves, and no way can I be convinced it is Tammi except on the earlier solo recordings [[I think there are 2) such as "Can't Believe You Love Me," with Gaye's vocals obviously added to the mix.

[Motown_M_1056]

What did Berry say that was a lie, or spinning, or different then what has been said before? It just seems that he was just giving details of the general story that has been going around for years.

I agree. I didn't read anything that Berry Gordy Jjr. has not said before about WGO and being concerned about Marvin Gaye's image. The man was consistent with how he felt and has said all along. What lies/ What back=peddling? When it comes to Berry Gordy, some on tghe forum love tp paint him as Simon LeGree. Grow up!

[carlo]

No, it is a pill that you seem desparately intent on forcing down the throats of the public. I don't know exactly what the deal is with the public up there where you are in B.C. Canada, but I do know that you can include Mary Wilson [[and several others including Martha Reeves, Gladys Knight and the Jacksons) to that list of very well known Motown stars. Heck, she was just on here again in New York hosting one of T.J Lubinsky's television specials last weekend!

Interestingly, they know her well enough in Canada to make it possible for her to tour for a full year as the star of the play "Beehive" in 1988 apart from her concert appearances there. Would you like to discuss Russia next?

Exactly. Martha Reeves even starred in a Canadian TV documentary that aired last year [[or the year before?). I'm not sure how recent it was, but it had to do with Motown and how she was mentoring some young school kids over here. It aired on Bravo quite a few times. I only caught the end of it each time! :[[

Everywhere I go, people like to bring up the fact that I am a Motown fan. Years ago in my church youth group, our youth pastor brought up how I am a huge Motown fan and people started chiming in, "Oh you mean the Four Tops?!"..."Yeah! Martha & the Vandellas!", etc. This is the honest truth. I usually get disappointed because no one ever mentions Diana Ross or The Supremes, unless I bring them up. It's strange, because they're so popular, you would think people would know them more than anyone else. Years ago, my Mom had a photo print of The Supremes mounted on wood for me. She brought it in and the lady had no idea who they were. So I don't buy the story that most people only know of "THE BIG 5" Motown superstars.

I recently talked to one of my University professors and when I said "Mary Wilson", he immediately knew who she was and reacted very positively. I won't tell you what he said about Diana Ross. I'm sure it would make some people laugh...but for me, being a fan of her's, it was a little bit of an uncomfortable moment for me. lol.

[stephanie]

Interesting thread maybe I was too hard on Mr Gordy but hey I have my reasons. Kenneth and all thanks for the timelines we have great Motown detectives in this group.

[Roberta75]

Interesting thread maybe I was too hard on Mr Gordy but hey I have my reasons. Kenneth and all thanks for the timelines we have great Motown detectives in this group.

Do you actually know Mr. Gordy personally stephanie?

[kenneth]

Interesting thread maybe I was too hard on Mr Gordy but hey I have my reasons. Kenneth and all thanks for the timelines we have great Motown detectives in this group.

That Ebony article was illuminating and what heartbreaking photos of Tammi.

[jboy88]

Ahhhh , the Tammi/Marvin/Valerie question makes its yearly appearence here. And again I will post this link as food for thought
on this subject. As I respect the insight of my fellow SDF members ,I will leave it up to you all to draw your opinions from this article ,and pay close attention to the dates mentioned. This article was from Nov 1969 ,which means it was written around Oct. Important because of the line, "has not recorded for 2 years".
This is why I love this space and you people and our conversations/exchange of ideas and opinions.
Team Marv in the hizzouse!!! :D:D

http://books.google.com/books?id=ZFDqAUi7h-QC&pg=PA94&dq=Tammi+Terrell&hl=en&ei=RNgGTtnHCMHYgAeu0YG9DQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=Tammi%20Terrell&f=false


I've seen that article many times, ery intriging and sad at the same time. While I believe that Valerie Simpson participated vocally on the Album, I don't believe that Tammi didn't. This article being one of the factors to reasoning. I hope that sometime before i go back to school, that I can finally give a full thesis on my take. It's quite lenghty so it'll take some time, but i'm sure i'll open on some thoughts that haven't been entertained.

[daddyacey]

I have to admit that this article was posted to the old forum some years ago by another member ,whom I don't remember the name. I had saved it page by page then and when Google started its scan project of books and magazines it was easier to pull it up. It combined with other sources like the booklets of The Complete MG &TT Recordings CD ,other articles of the time period from JET ,BILLBOARD and assorted MOTOWN theamed books ,are the basis of my personal opinion that some of the recordings in question were a combination of "punched in" parts of both Tammi and Valerie. That is based on consideration of ,
1)the recording technology of the time in the industry and at MOTOWN,
2)the unique chemistry of the combination of MARVIN and TAMMI ,which was a step higher than the pairing of MARVIN and MARY WELLS,or KIM WESTON,
3)the need to continue the succsess of the unique chemistry of the combination of MARVIN and TAMMI by BERRYS need and drive for "hits" ,dispite the health issues that TAMMI suffered.
4) MARVINS stated displeasure of the way things were handled regarding the way the releases were handled after TAMMI got sick and the way he was forced to participate in the issue. [[Reefer smoker or what ever ,MARVIN was a straight up honest and GOD FEARING man ,who did not like bullshit)
5) The need to fill the void of HDH jumping ship and because of that the talents of the then newbies ASHFORD & SIMPSON were pushed to the front [[GOOD LOVING AIN'T EASY was recorded but not released by GLADYS and THE PIPS in 66, and the TAMMI solos that were turned into duets by dubbing MARVIN in must also be considered)
6) The fact that Ms SIMPSON is a musical genius and a stand up lady and as such has respect for TAMMI and her talents ,that if any of what you summised had happened ,it aint none of yall's business.
It will for all time remain just a topic of discussion ,like what came first ,the chicken or the egg. DONE.

[boywonder]

Why so much BG bashing? Would this site even exist if it wasn't for the man? He made Motown what it was and put this group of young, talented black musicians at the top of the music industry. He made mistakes, and he took a fair share of the profits, but come'on, have any of you ever even looked at what the rest of the record company owners were doing back then? It makes him look pretty good.

As to this story, well he admits that he didn't think it would be a hit, and admits that he was against it. How forceful he actually was is another issue, but it does not call for this level of personal attacks.

The man is far from perfect, but then who of us is? Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones.

By the way, I much prefer Marvin's 60's music over What's Going on. I appreciate it for what it is, but his 60's music is far more enjoyable.

[Jimi LaLumia]

I agree with that, I was/am a fan of the "Motown Sound" and What's Going On was the qqualude opposite of everything I loved about Gordy's Groove Machine;
I was not a fan of WGO, have no intention of buying it, although I adore 60's Marvin, not so much 70's Marvin

[jboy88]

I beg to differ! What's Going On Was just as Motown as his '60s material. After all, it had the Funk brothers and the andantes all giving stellar performances. It was a more dense, progressive sound but a Motown sound none the less.

[Jimi LaLumia]

well, different strokes...I think the downtempo 70s stylings of Gaye and Wonder,and Ross morphing into Liza Minnelli ,Motown basically losing the plot,is what led to the need for 'disco', so that the dance clubs would have something uptempo and propulsive to play..

[stephanie]

Boywonder as much as I like Whats Going On I prefer the Motown Marvin of the 60s as well I just liked that sound behind him. WGO was a revolutionary album and it hit great strides but it was his Motown sound that enabled him to get to that point. Many said Marvin was a tortured soul and I sometimes wonder is this how he got all of his demons out with this album. Here My Dear is another album that seemed to express his needs and desires and hangups. I think he enjoyed doing these types of things more than the songs we love with the Motown machine. Stevie is the one who didnt have as many flops as Diana did making the transition but Diana was not a musician so that is to be expected. All 3 of them found success in the 70s and 80s though and I have to give them credit for changing with the times. So did the 70s Supremes and a lot of Motown acts left the label or couldnt make the transition. Motown had a LONG run and that is something to be proud of. I know some will disagree but I jump more when I hear Aint that Peculiar, or Too Busy Thinking about my Baby more so than WGO. WGO makes me think but the other ones make me happy. Believe it or not I can listen to Trouble Man more than WGO.

[stephanie]

Roberta
I dont know Berry Gordy personally. I know people [[two) that knew him and they have nothing but good things to say about him. One was a promoter [[Weldon) and the other is a singer and she had nothing bad to say but she thinks that the artists were ignored because of the Supremes but she accepts the fact that is was a business decision. Businessmen think differently than artists and fans do and I understand that.

[theboyfromxtown]

well, different strokes...I think the downtempo 70s stylings of Gaye and Wonder,and Ross morphing into Liza Minnelli ,Motown basically losing the plot,is what led to the need for 'disco', so that the dance clubs would have something uptempo and propulsive to play..


...and moving out of Detroit was the last straw....

[Roberta75]

Roberta
I dont know Berry Gordy personally. I know people [[two) that knew him and they have nothing but good things to say about him. One was a promoter [[Weldon) and the other is a singer and she had nothing bad to say but she thinks that the artists were ignored because of the Supremes but she accepts the fact that is was a business decision. Businessmen think differently than artists and fans do and I understand that.

Thank you Stephanie.

Roberta

[detmotownguy]

Gee thanks Marv...... leave me up for the draft...GRRRRR

[detmotownguy]

Hum interesting point....being raised in Detroit, there was a significant backlash against Motown for moving to the west coast. I am sure it had a certain impact on sales.

[detmotownguy]

Hum interesting point....being raised in Detroit, there was a significant backlash against Motown for moving to the west coast. I am sure it had a certain impact on sales.

[marv2]

Gee thanks Marv...... leave me up for the draft...GRRRRR


But we thought you were on vacation! You missed 2 practices by the way!

[marv2]

Hum interesting point....being raised in Detroit, there was a significant backlash against Motown for moving to the west coast. I am sure it had a certain impact on sales.

Oh man it was like they were turning the lights out when Motown left Detroit. Many of the artist and employees were still living in and around the Detroit area,but it just was not the same.

[Jimi LaLumia]

and when they left Detroit,the sound went soft and jazzy for the most part, or MOR for Miss Ross and a few others...
that created a need in the dance market,thus was born DISCO,and Motown spent the second half of the 70's catching up

[midnightman]

Berry Gordy has always backtracked on his accounts of how "What's Going On" came to be. He about said the same thing in an interview around the time "To Be Loved" came out saying that he was scared that Marvin's image as a sex symbol would be ruined by the song but Marvin wouldn't budge. Berry tries denying that politically he and Marvin were at odds [[Berry was allegedly a Nixon-voting Republican who was all about free capitalism; Marvin was a liberal, politically criticizing non-party picking free thinker - I don't know if Marvin ever voted, probably didn't - who didn't trust the government and had been questioning it even when he was growing up in D.C. ), also denies he and Marvin had physical arguments [[which Marvin said in interviews following his Motown exit and to David Ritz). Berry still trying to say that he understood where Marvin was coming from when even years later he admitted he didn't. I definitely believe the stories that the song was leaked and that Berry told people the song "sucked". Of course he's trying to do PR damage, which is IMHO 40 years too late. The song [[and the entire album) is a part of music history anyways.

[midnightman]

To be honest though I can also see Berry's side of the story, kind of. Who knows if what was written in books was fable or not but we know Marvin and Berry always were at odds in one way or another concerning material going back to Marvin's early years.

[captainjames]

Honestly as I said before I don't see a real big difference in what was said and what s being said now. It just sounds like a little bit of PR for the Anniversary of " What's Going On". Just to get everyone back in the mood for that mellow sound and pop those sales. I think I probably have everything on "What's Going On" to this day.

[midnightman]

Yeah like I said he's doing PR damage 40 years too late. Either way doesn't change anything. Just don't get why he felt the need to explain himself.

Marvin said all I needed to hear in that '81 interview when he said he and Berry clashed over a lot of issues. No wonder Berry don't want Marvin's bio out now!

[Jimi LaLumia]

it would be interesting if Gordy's lean were right wing/Republican/Nixon,as i clearly recall Diana Ross & the Supremes campaigning for/appearing with the competition, Hubert Humphrey,during the same period,;
if Gordy was a Nixon man, then the Ross thing was either a smokescreen[[people of color; not very big on Republicans),OR Miss Ross was in a position to express herself and her own personal lean..

[jboy88]

There were plenty of Black Republicans prior to the JFK elections. However, it's funny to state that Mr Gordy was a Nixon fan, as according to "To Be Loved" he was a supporter of Kennedy! [[ A side note, Marvin & Berry got into a fight over a racist term the day of the JFK assassination) He even named his son Kennedy [[Rockwell) after him.

[Jimi LaLumia]

I really doubt that The Supremes would have publicly got in Humphrey's corner if gordy was a Nixon man...

[jobeterob]

Captain James, you say this perfectly.

To see more in it is just to go looking for Motown negativity; I honestly don't see why the fans of Marvin, Berry, Motown and it's music would even bother.

It is the same thing that Mary Wilson asked people to stop.


Honestly as I said before I don't see a real big difference in what was said and what s being said now. It just sounds like a little bit of PR for the Anniversary of " What's Going On". Just to get everyone back in the mood for that mellow sound and pop those sales. I think I probably have everything on "What's Going On" to this day.

[RossHolloway]

Captain James, you say this perfectly.

To see more in it is just to go looking for Motown negativity; I honestly don't see why the fans of Marvin, Berry, Motown and it's music would even bother.

It is the same thing that Mary Wilson asked people to stop.

Good point. But seriously, think about it, the reporter is asking a man 81 years old about ONE album that came to be over 40 years ago. As if Berry has had nothing to do but sit and ponder since then *eyeroll*. I can't remember all the details from the conversations that I had just yesterday lol. Give Mr. Gordy some slack. I'm sure the conversation that he and Marvin had about this project wasn't just a one-off conversation but probably one of several about this record alone. Mr. Gordy explains his thought process he had with Marvin at that time. And I find nothing controversial about it at all. I mean, how odd do you think it is that a music producer may have a different opinion than an artist about their music or musical direction? People are making too much out of nothing here.

[jobeterob]

Another good post Ross. You just reminded me of the "good slap" Diana allegedly gave Berry in Rome over some "creative differences".!

[RossHolloway]

Another good post Ross. You just reminded me of the "good slap" Diana allegedly gave Berry in Rome over some "creative differences".!

Was this recreated for the movie Mahogany with D. Ross' and the photographer? lol

[1382hitsville]

I just re-read Berry's biography, and Diana's book. Both are from 16 years ago. In the mean time more information became available and it's an interesting read. Berry's take on What's Going On is no secret, he did not like it for commercial reasons. He had it released and when the money and respect came in he re-apppreciated it.

The shove on Motown 25...ah....come on. Emotions flared that night and let's not go on and on about it. Mary and Diana [[or Diane) have a special bond, sometimes a friendship and who are we to judge about it. Together with Florance, Cindy and the Andantes they have made great music. We still talk about it in an emotional manner 40 years on.

Tammi was one of the greatest singers of Motown [[buy her Hipo select CD and hear why...). If Valerie wants to deny her involvement in the sessions....it's her choice. Our ears are not wrong and you clearly can hear a different Tammi on some songs. Mixed or Valerie? Different!

[Jimi LaLumia]

like on Martha Reeves' "I Can't Dance To That Music You're Playing"..

[1382hitsville]

"I Can't Dance To That Music" from Martha is one of the greates mixes ever made! Martha wrote in her book [[pending to re-read) the amount she song on it. It's amazing Motown could make a whole singe out of it. Clever mixing!

[Jimi LaLumia]

it was a fantabulous single that should have been a real hit,but barely was heard in most places..

[jobeterob]

I better go listen to that song again. It obviously had a few fans.

[Jimi LaLumia]

in the 80's U.K. pop star Betty Boo had a nice sized hit with "I Can't Dance..."

[captainjames]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctY9FOok2xo
I loved the song probably years after it came out, I do not remember hearing it the time it was released.

[Jimi LaLumia]

here is the 1989 UK Top ten single by Betty Boo[[Beatmasters)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6I0_jqCOX8w&feature=related

[daddyacey]

I can understand some peoples feelings regarding the Marvin material prior to WGO. But we are talking about 2 time periods ,important to understanding why at one point the music had changed. There is a bigger picture that must be taken into account. The World changed drastically in mid 60's to 1970. In the 70's the social events that began in the late 50's through the 60's ,such as the civil rights issues ,the 3 pivoting assassination events that happened in that time period [[no assassination had impact since LINCOLN ,for the same issue) ,Kent State , Nam , the 68 Convention, landing on the moon, WOODSTOCK and a whole lot of other events that happend. I'm 56 years old this coming Thursday ,and I can say that I have lived and survived through half of a century plus of some mind boggling sh!t , technology wise ,political and social. The music of the late 60's early 70's reflect those changes and effects on society. The music of the early 60's ,in the R&B genre reflected ,lets have a good time ,lets party ,I love you etc. The late 60's reflected additional issues ,political and social in the R&B idiom ,there was a message all of a sudden in the music. Something you had to confront ,not only from the beat and musical point of view ,but from the intullectual point of view. Curtis ,Stevie ,Marvin and The Isleys made the first pivital message recordings in the R&B genre. You can't deny that the albums W.G.O. ,Curtis , Where I'm Coming From and Brother Brother Brother , were LANDMARK recordings of the era. A era of change. One may find comfort in the recordings prior to those ,but from those recordings and the direction that R&B music took forward from them should IMO be given merit for what they represent, and that is change ,an evolution ,a revolution ,as important as The Renascence in European Art and music, effect here in the U.S. and also in Black Culture.

[Jimi LaLumia]

I'm 59 and lived through the same things, but those things had little impact on the pop market place in the early 70's;
can we say JACKSON 5?..and a few years later, Hues Corp.,Barry white and the birth of disco?
everything changes,and everything stays the same

[bankhousedave]

Come with me out into left field, just for a moment. I was at the fiftieth anniversary of The Avengers last weekend - that's the John Steed/Cathy Gale/Mrs Peel/Tara King/Purdey type Avengers - to my mind one of the most stylish and entertaining TV shows ever made. Benny Hill used to do a wonderrful parody of it in which every time there was an action or fight sequence, somebody with no resemblance to the star took over as a 'double'. This was a great comedy statement, but the fact is that the show is still brilliant when you have seen that. The end result was more important than its various parts. Motown was the same. I talked for many hours with Dave Van De Pitte, much to my surprise because he had announced that he would never talk to anyone again following an interview wit the BBC, and I know the elements that ring true about WGO.

I haven't talked with Berry, but I know what he believed in, what he achieved and what he had in mind. Without him this discussion would be irrelevent. Marvin was a great talent, but BG made him a star, whether he liked it or not. Nobody thought he was Nat King Cole except Marvin himself. Berry is to be forgiven for taking some convincing that one of the acts he had used his own reliable formula to build wanted to do something in direct contradiction. I don't think there is anything untrue in this interview just because it contradicts the simpleminded story we have had to swallow all these years. I have never met a Motown artists who didn't contradict the popular perception of their time there.