Still Within the Sound of My Voice/The Supremes JW

[marybrewster]

"Still Within the Sound of My Voice" is a fabulous song written by Jimmy Webb, recorded by Glen Campbell in 1987, and later covered by Linda Ronstadt.

I'm not sure when it was written, but if you take a listen to Linda's version, you can *almost* hear Jean Terrell. It would have been perfect for the inclusion of the Jimmy Webb set released in '72.

[gman]

Other than I GUESS I'LL MISS THE MAN and 5.30 Plane, I enjoy and play nothing on that LP....it was a missed chance to hear the group cover some great familiar songs...I've mentioned this several times before...I wonder what Clarence Paul who's RnB work and Norman Whitfield whos psych soul I loved would have done with Jean Terrell???
here's my oddball thought...every time I hear Steppenwolf's rock classic Magic Carpet Ride I think it would have been great for Jean to cover...she could have sounded so trippy and aloof on it...or a 3 way lead on Nights in White Satin??? I would have loved to hear her sing the J5 arrangement of Never Can Say Goodbye too.

[sup_fan]

yes the JW project was a huge missed opportunity. aside from the unnecessary added voices, the song selection was quite questionable. too many random covers, no instantly recognizable JW songs.

i don't know that Whitfield would have been my choice though either for a producer. I think Pam Sawyer would have been ideal. while not necessarily the name recognition of Whitfield, she'd worked alongside Frank Wilson for years and was hugely talented.

Bayou i think mentioned that Motown was not the one that originated the idea of bringing in Jimmy Webb. that it was the Sups manager. i guess looking to try something radically new and different. while the singer-songwriter trend was certainly very hot at the time, so was the rise of the FEMALE singer-songwriter. Joni Mitchell, Carole King. this was also the rise of women's lib. so although Pam wasn't necessarily known outside of Motown, if she [[and maybe Gloria Jones) worked with the Sups, they could have hyped up the 'all women' angle. plus the material Pam and Gloria would have done certainly would have been excellent. they both really knew Jean's voice by this time

[Spreadinglove21]

Alas it appears the song wasn't written until the 80s. Jimmy Webb also recorded the song and used it as title for one of his own albums.

[daviddesper]

Linda Ronstadt's version of that song is incredible. I cannot imagine anyone else touching it. As for the Jimmy Webb album, it was such a radical departure for the girls that I never quite knew what to make of it. A few good songs for sure but a strong overall album.......not quite.

[jim aka jtigre99]

The Jimmy Webb album was an experiment and it was the wrong sound at the wrong time. They were trying something new and it just wasn't something expected nor did the experiment really pan out. There are some decent songs on the LP but even including IGIMTM which only hit #85 showed they were not in the best place creatively. They were trying what they could to evolve but it just didn't work. Plus some of Jean's vocals were strained because they were at the top of her range or beyond. Perhaps, one or two songs added to other songs produced by others may have worked better. I always liked I Keep It Hid and Mary's ballad vocals there as well as a few others.

[jobucats]

The Jimmy Webb album is my favorite from the post 1970s group. The only negative is the oversaturated background vocals which made the album, minus some of the songs with lead vocals by Mary, seem be a solo vehicle for Jean. I must say that I am a fan of anything that Jimmy Webb writes/produces. I never realized until recently that "All I Want" was a Joni Mitchell song.

[RanRan79]

My question is: what was it about Jimmy Webb at that point that made anyone think he was the one to take the group back to popularity?

My biggest critique of the album is that it lacks any contemporary soul. Jean has a few chances to let her soul shine, but overall, IMO, the material doesn't fit her or the group. They were in terrible need of something to make them relevant again and I really don't hear any song on the album doing that.

Discography wise, I think this is the biggest bad decision in the group's history, period. [[Second worst decision would probably be two more Tops duet albums than were needed.) And I'm not talking just this lineup or the Jean years, I'm talking about from 1961 thru 1977. Absolutely horrible decision because it ultimately made a bad situation worse. The Floy Joy project was pretty well received. Why even look to anyone else other than Smokey to produce the follow up?

Perhaps the follow up album might have had some of the cuts that ended up on Smokey's debut album. Would have been fantastic to hear Jean doing "Never Can Say Goodbye" with Smokey's arrangement and tackling "Silent Partner In a Three Way Love Affair". How about Mary finally getting a crack at "Will You Love Me Tomorrow"?

Jimmy Webb was not going to do what needed to be done.

[marybrewster]

My question is: what was it about Jimmy Webb at that point that made anyone think he was the one to take the group back to popularity?

My biggest critique of the album is that it lacks any contemporary soul. Jean has a few chances to let her soul shine, but overall, IMO, the material doesn't fit her or the group. They were in terrible need of something to make them relevant again and I really don't hear any song on the album doing that.

Discography wise, I think this is the biggest bad decision in the group's history, period. [[Second worst decision would probably be two more Tops duet albums than were needed.) And I'm not talking just this lineup or the Jean years, I'm talking about from 1961 thru 1977. Absolutely horrible decision because it ultimately made a bad situation worse. The Floy Joy project was pretty well received. Why even look to anyone else other than Smokey to produce the follow up?

Perhaps the follow up album might have had some of the cuts that ended up on Smokey's debut album. Would have been fantastic to hear Jean doing "Never Can Say Goodbye" with Smokey's arrangement and tackling "Silent Partner In a Three Way Love Affair". How about Mary finally getting a crack at "Will You Love Me Tomorrow"?

Jimmy Webb was not going to do what needed to be done.

Wasn't it around this time that the Supremes had a new manager? His name escapes me, but I've seen pictures of him and JML [[wearing the Tropical Lilac gowns). White guy, long-ish hair, I dare say hippie-esque. Bernard something? I wonder if he had his hand in connecting the group with JW?

[Spreadinglove21]

I respect the ambition of the Webb album. If there ever was a specialty album in the 70s Supremes catalog it's this one.

[jobeterob]

A good reason for this album was the connection to a singer songwriter which was where things were at

Groups were struggling and the Supremes were seen as dated and old - the Motown hitmakers were Diana Marvin Stevie and Smokey

So if they wanted to become current and stay connected to young people, why the hell do they lead off with a single like I Guess I’ll Miss the Man? Keep singing show tunes, wear old dresses and issue a Broadway tune for a single - send the message that we are a group of old women completely out of touch with today

There were two very appealing current sounding songs on that album - 530 Plane and All I Want - and they ignored them; they should have been the singles

Hopefully somebody a few years later was singing Silly Wasn’t I?

[sansradio]

Wasn't it around this time that the Supremes had a new manager? His name escapes me, but I've seen pictures of him and JML [[wearing the Tropical Lilac gowns). White guy, long-ish hair, I dare say hippie-esque. Bernard something? I wonder if he had his hand in connecting the group with JW?

That would be Wayne Weisbart.

[sup_fan]

My question is: what was it about Jimmy Webb at that point that made anyone think he was the one to take the group back to popularity?

My biggest critique of the album is that it lacks any contemporary soul. Jean has a few chances to let her soul shine, but overall, IMO, the material doesn't fit her or the group. They were in terrible need of something to make them relevant again and I really don't hear any song on the album doing that.

Discography wise, I think this is the biggest bad decision in the group's history, period. [[Second worst decision would probably be two more Tops duet albums than were needed.) And I'm not talking just this lineup or the Jean years, I'm talking about from 1961 thru 1977. Absolutely horrible decision because it ultimately made a bad situation worse. The Floy Joy project was pretty well received. Why even look to anyone else other than Smokey to produce the follow up?

Perhaps the follow up album might have had some of the cuts that ended up on Smokey's debut album. Would have been fantastic to hear Jean doing "Never Can Say Goodbye" with Smokey's arrangement and tackling "Silent Partner In a Three Way Love Affair". How about Mary finally getting a crack at "Will You Love Me Tomorrow"?

Jimmy Webb was not going to do what needed to be done.

yeah i think the issue of smokey not doing another album was regarding his debut and probably just wanting some time to "retire" for a bit. he had wanted to leave the Miracles years before i believe but Tears of a Clown popped up out of nowhere and suddenly they were touring more. at the same time, motown was finishing it's move to LA and he was a VP. i'd imagine the effort and work that entailed were significant.

but i completely agree with the suggestion. I really like the FJ album, although i know others aren't as fond of it. and the version of the title track and AS on the mary wilson anthology are fascinating - the added instrumentation makes a totally different sound. bigger, bolder, more soulful and less cotton candy. wonder what the rest of the lp would sound like.

previously i thought that the decision to go with JW was something motown overall was more involved in and was attempting to find SOMETHING to revitalize the group. their albums had been doing poorly, the singles only so-so. but in chatting on FB with Bayou, he said that, no, motown had not been involved with this and i guess they just sort of went along with it. clearly they were not excited about the results that were turned in. when i asked him though what else the girls had been working on, aside from IGIMTM, he didn't believe they were doing much recording.

so that goes back to a point i brought up long ago - was the departure of Cindy much more meaningful that we've typically given it credit for? motown certainly knew how difficult jean could be, certainly knew they had 0 interest in developing mary as an artist. so was Cindy viewed as the glue keeping the group together? sort of the peacemaker between J and M? and without her presence, not to mention the huge disruption for the group's image to have ANOTHER personnel change, they were going to fall apart?

[RanRan79]

A good reason for this album was the connection to a singer songwriter which was where things were at

Groups were struggling and the Supremes were seen as dated and old - the Motown hitmakers were Diana Marvin Stevie and Smokey

So if they wanted to become current and stay connected to young people, why the hell do they lead off with a single like I Guess I’ll Miss the Man? Keep singing show tunes, wear old dresses and issue a Broadway tune for a single - send the message that we are a group of old women completely out of touch with today

There were two very appealing current sounding songs on that album - 530 Plane and All I Want - and they ignored them; they should have been the singles

Hopefully somebody a few years later was singing Silly Wasn’t I?

But you can't just have any singer/songwriter for singer/songwriter's sake, and that's my problem. Why Jimmy Webb? Admittedly I don't know much about him or his career. In a cursory search for what he was doing around this time, it appears he wasn't having blockbuster success with anyone, especially artists with a R&B following. Surely there had to have been others who made more sense if the intention was to pair the ladies with a singer/songwriter. And why go out of the label when Motown still had singer/songwriters on the roster: Smokey, Stevie, Willie Hutch, Marvin Gaye. Was Nick and Val still with Motown at this point?

Off topic, "Silly Wasn't I" is a song I soooooo wish Mary had taken a stab at back then.

[RanRan79]

so that goes back to a point i brought up long ago - was the departure of Cindy much more meaningful that we've typically given it credit for? motown certainly knew how difficult jean could be, certainly knew they had 0 interest in developing mary as an artist. so was Cindy viewed as the glue keeping the group together? sort of the peacemaker between J and M? and without her presence, not to mention the huge disruption for the group's image to have ANOTHER personnel change, they were going to fall apart?

Honestly, I don't think so. Not to downplay Cindy's contribution or suggest that it had no effect whatsoever on the group. I just think this was all a case of Motown losing focus. While I don't doubt that Motown wasn't involved in the idea to bring Jimmy on for the Supremes, as if they were brainstorming what to do with the group and brought the idea to them, Motown still had the final say, the option to be like "aww hell naw" when the idea was brought to the label. Jimmy would have had to have a contract with Motown to work for the group, recording music that he would, of course, be expecting to be paid for. So Motown may not have dreamed this up, but as the company that put out the Supremes' product, the buck stops with them. And I think that if the company was laser focused on music like they were in the 60s and while in Detroit, plans for the Supremes would have been better handled.

The behind the scenes shenanigans of Mary and Jean would obviously cause issues, but they were all still professional, and they wouldn't be the first or last group to have some inner issues and still produce success, so I don't think Cindy playing peacemaker would have had any bearing on the way Motown was dealing with the group. Had Cindy stayed, I suspect the JW album would have happened anyway, as long as Wayne what's his face was the manager, if indeed it was his suggestion.

It really was a bungled opportunity to put the group back on the map.

[Circa 1824]

I remember driving and hearing Glen Campbell’s version for the first time. I literally pulled the car over to hear it better. It was one of those outstanding musical moments. Of course the next day I bought it.

[sup_fan]

Honestly, I don't think so. Not to downplay Cindy's contribution or suggest that it had no effect whatsoever on the group. I just think this was all a case of Motown losing focus. While I don't doubt that Motown wasn't involved in the idea to bring Jimmy on for the Supremes, as if they were brainstorming what to do with the group and brought the idea to them, Motown still had the final say, the option to be like "aww hell naw" when the idea was brought to the label. Jimmy would have had to have a contract with Motown to work for the group, recording music that he would, of course, be expecting to be paid for. So Motown may not have dreamed this up, but as the company that put out the Supremes' product, the buck stops with them. And I think that if the company was laser focused on music like they were in the 60s and while in Detroit, plans for the Supremes would have been better handled.

The behind the scenes shenanigans of Mary and Jean would obviously cause issues, but they were all still professional, and they wouldn't be the first or last group to have some inner issues and still produce success, so I don't think Cindy playing peacemaker would have had any bearing on the way Motown was dealing with the group. Had Cindy stayed, I suspect the JW album would have happened anyway, as long as Wayne what's his face was the manager, if indeed it was his suggestion.

It really was a bungled opportunity to put the group back on the map.

yeah i don't think Cindy's exit was THE event that ruined the group. like an airplane crash, it's a series of unfortunate events. lots of career bungling with the duet nonsense and things. the lineup change again.

on FB someone recently posted newspaper reviews of the girls' show at the Carter Baron theater in DC with the Tops. i believe this was mid August 1971. the reviews were not very strong. the biggest complaint revolved around a rather lackluster concept for the show. in a nutshell it seemed to align with what most of us have said here time and again. that the show needed to modernize. they needed more of their own material, less MOR junk. it was too cabaret and apparently the CB facility is a huge auditorium. so there isn't the intimacy of a nightclub setting.

and this was LONG before they made the wildly unfortunate decision to revert to the old DRATS songbook. but it was clear that things were starting to sputter. Touch [[both album and single) were new and bombed. Return of Mag 7 and Gotta Have Love did nothing. the review also criticized both groups for NOT singing together even though they had 2 lps together! agree!! what a dumb idea!! although i do have a bootleg and eventually they apparently added River Deep and Reach out and touch someone's hand to the act as sort of encores.

[jim aka jtigre99]

I believe Wayne Weisbart was their manager and he was an outside producer, which didn't thrill Motown at all. Jimmy Webb was his idea. Plus, losing Cindy and gaining another new face probably didn't help Motown's or the mass public interest. Lynda certainly gave a contemporary vibe to the group while Cindy was recognizable and very much a part of the glamour image.
There was no interest in them at this time from Motown, who was focused on moving to California and on the movie industry. I know Mary enjoyed Smokey as their producer and wrote in Supreme Faith, wanted him to be their producer "forever" much like HDH. Apparently, Motown found Jean difficult and had no interest in developing Mary so they let them to their own devices and they floundered with no real direction. It wasn't that they had no image but they didn't have the material and they didn't have a direction to make that image more contemporary. There were a lot of factors at play here. I think Berry was hoping they would just fade away.
Like I said, Jimmy Webb was the wrong experiment at the wrong time.

[sup_fan]

i do have to lay much of the problems with the JW lp simply at the feet of JW. sure we can ask all kinds of questions - should they have gone with an outside producer, lineup changes, motown's disinterest, etc

but the fact of the matter is that JW was the producer and essentially didn't do his homework and the result was frankly poor-quality work that was far below his and the group's talents

1. he was essentially a guest producer coming in to work with a huge act. in doing so, you can't simply toss away every little aspect or style that the group is known for.
2. poor choice of songs, way too many random covers tunes
3. the fact that you're recording a group but essentially develop an entirely new group by bringing in the Blossoms. you were assigned to work with MJL and the supremes. figure out how to do things with what you're assigned
4. poor productions and arrangements. Listen to Stoned love and then listed to Silent Voices. on SL Frank weaves the instrumentation of the backing track in and out. on SV Jimmy just basically hits the "record" button and tells every instrument to play from beginning to end at full volume. there's no nuance, no builds. it's just sound. loud sound.
5. while you want to push a lead singer, you do need to acknowledge their vocal range. he just crafted songs that were too high and out of range for jean

basically JW didn't do his homework and the result was the drecktitude we got

[marybrewster]

That would be Wayne Weisbart.

Thank you sans!

[daviddesper]

Circa 1824: If you have never heard Linda Ronstadt nail that song, then find her version and you will forget all about Glen Campbell's.

[sansradio]

https://media3.giphy.com/media/GCvktC0KFy9l6/giphy.gif?cid=2154d3d7x87koqcs2a7d5g0622ahtfa3jap9 dy9gy6jzx5xs&ep=v1_gifs_search&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g
Thank you sans!

https://soulfuldetroit.com/blob:https://soulfuldetroit.com/920e8665-5339-4da0-b7ce-7587bd61567b

[marybrewster]

i do have to lay much of the problems with the JW lp simply at the feet of JW. sure we can ask all kinds of questions - should they have gone with an outside producer, lineup changes, motown's disinterest, etc

but the fact of the matter is that JW was the producer and essentially didn't do his homework and the result was frankly poor-quality work that was far below his and the group's talents

1. he was essentially a guest producer coming in to work with a huge act. in doing so, you can't simply toss away every little aspect or style that the group is known for.
2. poor choice of songs, way too many random covers tunes
3. the fact that you're recording a group but essentially develop an entirely new group by bringing in the Blossoms. you were assigned to work with MJL and the supremes. figure out how to do things with what you're assigned
4. poor productions and arrangements. Listen to Stoned love and then listed to Silent Voices. on SL Frank weaves the instrumentation of the backing track in and out. on SV Jimmy just basically hits the "record" button and tells every instrument to play from beginning to end at full volume. there's no nuance, no builds. it's just sound. loud sound.
5. while you want to push a lead singer, you do need to acknowledge their vocal range. he just crafted songs that were too high and out of range for jean

basically JW didn't do his homework and the result was the drecktitude we got

SILENT VOICES also has that odd vocal edit when Jean is singing "my love, oh my love"; it's like there were two takes put together, but not seamlessly. Almost like a record skip.

[sup_fan]

SILENT VOICES also has that odd vocal edit when Jean is singing "my love, oh my love"; it's like there were two takes put together, but not seamlessly. Almost like a record skip.

and the most odd thing of this song is it's called Silent Voices and it's this overwhelming deluge of sound. of course that's not unique to the JW and Sups version either

[gman]

IGIMTM was a great song....they performed it live on TV many times...and it wasn't a train wreck like many of the other live vocal performances...it needed to be pushed to AOC radio...then maybe catch on POP / RnB...I consider that song and 5.30 Plane Terrell masterpieces....other than IGIMTM I don't hear anything worthy of being a single....and although I liked it OK at the time, no one I've ever to this day played Bad Weather for likes it at all...they do like the Scherrie era stuff though...always got lots of WOW!'s when I play that stuff for folks that never heard it...
Maybe they should have done a singer songwriter LP using a "in house" producer and not isolated the LP to one composer....the early 70's were a hotbed of choices...

[sup_fan]

IGIMTM was a great song....they performed it live on TV many times...and it wasn't a train wreck like many of the other live vocal performances...it needed to be pushed to AOC radio...then maybe catch on POP / RnB...I consider that song and 5.30 Plane Terrell masterpieces....other than IGIMTM I don't hear anything worthy of being a single....and although I liked it OK at the time, no one I've ever to this day played Bad Weather for likes it at all...they do like the Scherrie era stuff though...always got lots of WOW!'s when I play that stuff for folks that never heard it...
Maybe they should have done a singer songwriter LP using a "in house" producer and not isolated the LP to one composer....the early 70's were a hotbed of choices...

IGIMTM is beautifully sung and produced but man. those lyrics are really downers. i think the content of the song was as problematic as anything else with it. also the girls did their tv performances of it months after it was released. so unfortunately that promotion was too little too late

530 is a perfect song. it was contemporary, great and relatable story line, well performed, and the choral backgrounds aren't too out of line here.

i think Cheap Lovin' is another great song on the album. man they're sizzling on this one. jean rips it apart, from top to bottom, left to right.

[gman]

Cheap Lovin' was a single in Italy only b/w Tossin' and Turnin I believe....why? I don't know.

[Circa 1824]

Circa 1824: If you have never heard Linda Ronstadt nail that song, then find her version and you will forget all about Glen Campbell's.

i still prefer Glen’s version. I never cared for Linda’s voice outside of You’re No Good and Desperato.

[daviddesper]

Oh my!!! Different strokes I guess! To my ears, Linda turned that into the ultimate torch song. Glen's version to me was just typical country fare and I don't recall much emotion in it. But maybe it is because I prefer almost any female singer over any male singer. I can think of very few examples where a male and a female [[or female group) have done the same song and I liked the male version better.

[marybrewster]

In a 1977 Supremes Fan Club Newsletter, there is an excerpt from a June 1977 article from Phonographic Record:

"Webb indicates that difficulties with Supremes lead singer Jean Terrell as being one of the reasons for the album's lack of success. Motown was apparently so confused by Webb's un-Motowm production that they added an additional, house produced track at the beginning of the album."

[RanRan79]

In a 1977 Supremes Fan Club Newsletter, there is an excerpt from a June 1977 article from Phonographic Record:

"Webb indicates that difficulties with Supremes lead singer Jean Terrell as being one of the reasons for the album's lack of success. Motown was apparently so confused by Webb's un-Motowm production that they added an additional, house produced track at the beginning of the album."

Jean was not the problem that album bombed. Very few people wanted to hear the Supremes in the way JW recorded them. Whatever was going on behind the scenes with Jean and Motown, or Jean and Mary, did not in any way keep the public from running out and grabbing this album. The whole thing really should have been shelved and when it was finally released 40 years later, we could enjoy having an unreleased album and try to enjoy it for what it is. But at the time of initial release, I am not at all surprised that the public passed it by.

And to think, the JW album got released but Promises Kept was shelved and the Stevie album not even completed. Ugh.

[jobucats]

I remember driving and hearing Glen Campbell’s version for the first time. I literally pulled the car over to hear it better. It was one of those outstanding musical moments. Of course the next day I bought it.

That's how I felt when I heard Glen's version of "I Keep It Hid."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGZVx5TmuH0

[sup_fan]

Jean was not the problem that album bombed. Very few people wanted to hear the Supremes in the way JW recorded them. Whatever was going on behind the scenes with Jean and Motown, or Jean and Mary, did not in any way keep the public from running out and grabbing this album. The whole thing really should have been shelved and when it was finally released 40 years later, we could enjoy having an unreleased album and try to enjoy it for what it is. But at the time of initial release, I am not at all surprised that the public passed it by.

And to think, the JW album got released but Promises Kept was shelved and the Stevie album not even completed. Ugh.

i think the fan club statement isn't about her performance on the songs but on her overall relationship with motown. I'm piecing together from what other fans have said but sounds like Motown was NOT in favor of this project overall, from the beginning. so by the time it came to release it and motown heard the material, they weren't thrilled at all. jean really, really wanted this album to come out. she was already highly unsatisfied with motown and probably figured she would be leaving sooner or later. and this is basically a Jean solo album [[other than I Keep It Hid). so motown sort of agreed to release it but then did nothing for it. and jean was NOT having that. apparently she really was after motown to do something and so i guess they did even less.

again, i'm piecing together bits from discussions with fans from years ago, fan discussions on FB, etc. Now with albums like High Energy and diana 80, motown said "up you have more work to do to make this album release-able" so why didn't they do that here? this was also RIGHT on top of the release of Lady Sings the Blues which premiered in Oct 72. so everyone was probably so wrapped up in the movie, the premiere, the Academy Awards, etc. The soundtrack album was also released in oct.

[marybrewster]

i think the fan club statement isn't about her performance on the songs but on her overall relationship with motown. I'm piecing together from what other fans have said but sounds like Motown was NOT in favor of this project overall, from the beginning. so by the time it came to release it and motown heard the material, they weren't thrilled at all. jean really, really wanted this album to come out. she was already highly unsatisfied with motown and probably figured she would be leaving sooner or later. and this is basically a Jean solo album [[other than I Keep It Hid). so motown sort of agreed to release it but then did nothing for it. and jean was NOT having that. apparently she really was after motown to do something and so i guess they did even less.

again, i'm piecing together bits from discussions with fans from years ago, fan discussions on FB, etc. Now with albums like High Energy and diana 80, motown said "up you have more work to do to make this album release-able" so why didn't they do that here? this was also RIGHT on top of the release of Lady Sings the Blues which premiered in Oct 72. so everyone was probably so wrapped up in the movie, the premiere, the Academy Awards, etc. The soundtrack album was also released in oct.

I also wonder if the issue wasn't Jimmy himself. Jean wanted something "different", but did she realize that meant working with the personality of a new Producer? Everything she had done at Motown at that point had been with Frank Wilson, who knew what Jean's quirks were and what she could and couldn't do. YES, there was the TOUCH album also, Produced by Smokey, who I imagine, like Wilson, Jean had a good relationship with. I don't think it's any secret that Jean could be difficult, and I'm sure that recording sessions were not exactly sunshine and rainbows.

[sup_fan]

I also wonder if the issue wasn't Jimmy himself. Jean wanted something "different", but did she realize that meant working with the personality of a new Producer? Everything she had done at Motown at that point had been with Frank Wilson, who knew what Jean's quirks were and what she could and couldn't do. YES, there was the TOUCH album also, Produced by Smokey, who I imagine, like Wilson, Jean had a good relationship with. I don't think it's any secret that Jean could be difficult, and I'm sure that recording sessions were not exactly sunshine and rainbows.

one thing that's interesting is the girls [[or really i'd say Jean, since i think most of the backing vocals are As and session singers) did a lot of recording with Clay McMurray. He did Then We Can Try It Again, I Got Hurt on Right On and Is There A Place on NW. But lots of the unreleased tracks we've received were done by Clay.

Given the amount of work he did with them, seems like they would have eventually done an album with him.

He did also do some of the duets - You've Got What It Takes, Its Got To Be A Miracle and some others

[sup_fan]

speculation post [[like how on Youtube vids they put a disclaim in case there's potentially offensive content lol)

JMC were definitely running into headwinds in late 71. the duets were bombs [[frankly shouldn't have been released). Both the single and album Touch failed. On FB some people have shared some reviews from lots of different shows through the years. the ones issued during the Carter Baron run in Aug 71 with the Tops was not very favorable. in a nutshell, it basically said too much MOR and non-Sup material.

So they regrouped. recorded the various tracks in fall of 71 with different producers and ended up going with FJ. the lead single and album did well.

but then Cindy departed
then there was the hubbub w the Copa and HI dates, with jean and mary ill
then they started working with an outside producer
then motown moved to LA
then the big release of LSTB
then there were essentially no recorded sessions with the group [[other than IGIMTM and the JW stuff).

seems like there was a big hiccup in summer 71 with Touch, Return Mag 7, gotta have love. they seemed to sort of get back on track with FJ in Dec but then it all fell apart again in the summer 72

[Boogiedown]

you can add the disbandment of the Andantes in 1972....the Supremes secret weapon now unavailable . Webb had to bring in yet even more new voices to try to obtain a Supremes sound using the Blossoms.

the voices of just the 3 current Supremes obviously weren't cutting it .

[sup_fan]

you can add the disbandment of the Andantes in 1972....the Supremes secret weapon now unavailable . Webb had to bring in yet even more new voices to try to obtain a Supremes sound using the Blossoms.

the voices of just the 3 current Supremes obviously weren't cutting it .

that line in Jimmy's recap of the album has always bugged me. WTF was he looking for!??!!? i'm assuming he had heard of The Supremes prior to this assignment lol and had heard a tune or two of theirs. it was never about a massive choral sound but of a group of 3 singers. sure there were times with added voices. or added vocal lines. like how Frank added the As and [[i think) JMC on multiple tracks. Like on This Is The Story and Touch and Loving Country. that would have been a much more interesting and captivating approach to creating a larger and more complex sound than just having 6 women standing and singing as a choir.

hell even when prior producers wanted to beef up the vocals, the As were surgically layered in. like on CW&P. it gave fullness to the sound but without swamping it.

[Boogiedown]

that line in Jimmy's recap of the album has always bugged me. WTF was he looking for!??!!? i'm assuming he had heard of The Supremes prior to this assignment lol and had heard a tune or two of theirs. .

So was Jimmy shocked by the way they sounded?? Did he approach Motown and say I'm not getting a good Supremes sound out of these ladies.

Did Suzanne laugh and say, "We never could, that's why we used the Andantes."

Was Jimmy relieved and said, "well for goodness sakes, let's get them in here!!."

Then Suzanne replies ....."uh, there's one problem ...."

[SatansBlues]

So did Jean record anything with the group after the JW project/sessions?

[reese]

So did Jean record anything with the group after the JW project/sessions?

Wasn't there the session with Frank Wilson where they recorded LOVE TRAIN? Or was that before?

[bradsupremes]

So did Jean record anything with the group after the JW project/sessions?

Yes, there were more sessions. "Love Train," "Remote Control," "Traveling Light" were all done after Jimmy Webb. I think "Traveling Light" was Jean's last session. Then there's Stevie Wonder sessions with "Bad Weather," "I'll Wait A Lifetime," "Soft Days," and possibly a few other songs.

[blackguy69]

It was the blackberries that was the added voices . Also Brenda and Billie from the undisputed truth did add background vocals to the girls song not replace them. They were the added voices to Up the Ladder not the Andantes. And to point out the songs that don’t have Mary or Cindy on them were either recorded before Jean was an official supreme or the song was meant for another artist [[i.e Then We can try again) or the unreleased unfinished songs that’s Mary and Cindy didn’t lay the vocals yet.
that line in Jimmy's recap of the album has always bugged me. WTF was he looking for!??!!? i'm assuming he had heard of The Supremes prior to this assignment lol and had heard a tune or two of theirs. it was never about a massive choral sound but of a group of 3 singers. sure there were times with added voices. or added vocal lines. like how Frank added the As and [[i think) JMC on multiple tracks. Like on This Is The Story and Touch and Loving Country. that would have been a much more interesting and captivating approach to creating a larger and more complex sound than just having 6 women standing and singing as a choir.

hell even when prior producers wanted to beef up the vocals, the As were surgically layered in. like on CW&P. it gave fullness to the sound but without swamping it.

[RanRan79]

that line in Jimmy's recap of the album has always bugged me. WTF was he looking for!??!!? i'm assuming he had heard of The Supremes prior to this assignment lol and had heard a tune or two of theirs. it was never about a massive choral sound but of a group of 3 singers. sure there were times with added voices. or added vocal lines. like how Frank added the As and [[i think) JMC on multiple tracks. Like on This Is The Story and Touch and Loving Country. that would have been a much more interesting and captivating approach to creating a larger and more complex sound than just having 6 women standing and singing as a choir.

hell even when prior producers wanted to beef up the vocals, the As were surgically layered in. like on CW&P. it gave fullness to the sound but without swamping it.

Agreed, but there also has to be some blame placed on the Supremes themselves. The minute the Blossoms walked in the door, Mary, Jean and Lynda should have pitched a fit. Could you imagine the crime scene that would have ensued if the Tempts were preparing to do a session and the Dramatics walked in to sing along?

[RanRan79]

It was the blackberries that was the added voices . Also Brenda and Billie from the undisputed truth did add background vocals to the girls song not replace them. They were the added voices to Up the Ladder not the Andantes. And to point out the songs that don’t have Mary or Cindy on them were either recorded before Jean was an official supreme or the song was meant for another artist [[i.e Then We can try again) or the unreleased unfinished songs that’s Mary and Cindy didn’t lay the vocals yet.

Mary and Cindy had a great blend together, but IMO it was a really soft sound. My suspicion is that many of the producers thought the same thing, which is why the Supremes no longer just had the Andantes creeping in, now there's Blackberries and Undisputed Truths too. Lol Lynda was a very different kind of singer from Cindy, so it boggles my mind why Mary, Lynda and Jean weren't enough for JW. Later, when Scherrie comes in, the backing vocals were absolutely fantastic, and I attribute that to the fact that it was all three Supremes singing together, rather than just two.

[RanRan79]

Piggybacking off my point about Mary, Lynda and Jean, I wonder too if JW really wasn't familiar with the new lineup. Lynda was pretty fresh in the group when these sessions started. I don't know how much time between "Miss the Man" and when the first JW session took place, but I wonder if he was figuring that the sound needed padding because he was basing it off of Cindy and Mary, rather than Lynda and Mary, since most of the latest Supremes singles that year were recorded with Cindy, not Lynda.

[marybrewster]

My question is, what DID Jean want to sing? It sounds like she wanted to ditch the MOR and showtunes. She reluctantly sang the Diana lead hits, as that's what the audience that came to see "The Supremes" wanted to hear. So what's left? There's been few instances where an LP cut was performed live. So I don't know what she wanted to fill a show with. Covers by the Carpenters?

[sup_fan]

Mary and Cindy had a great blend together, but IMO it was a really soft sound. My suspicion is that many of the producers thought the same thing, which is why the Supremes no longer just had the Andantes creeping in, now there's Blackberries and Undisputed Truths too. Lol Lynda was a very different kind of singer from Cindy, so it boggles my mind why Mary, Lynda and Jean weren't enough for JW. Later, when Scherrie comes in, the backing vocals were absolutely fantastic, and I attribute that to the fact that it was all three Supremes singing together, rather than just two.

that's a good description. M and C had a softer more delicate sound. and that seemed to fit Frank Wilson perfectly. sure he added other vocals at times. with TITS and Touch, i know there are other voices but i also wonder if the sups didn't still do some of the layered tracks. maybe not all but some.

the tunes JW recorded and the production of them was more hard edged. a more rock sound. maybe he was thinking he needed the Ikettes to do the backing vocals. or perhaps that was the sound he was wanting. so he should have gone and recorded the ikettes then.

with MJL you did have a more full, stronger sound than MJC. Lynda's voice was more powerful.

[sup_fan]

Piggybacking off my point about Mary, Lynda and Jean, I wonder too if JW really wasn't familiar with the new lineup. Lynda was pretty fresh in the group when these sessions started. I don't know how much time between "Miss the Man" and when the first JW session took place, but I wonder if he was figuring that the sound needed padding because he was basing it off of Cindy and Mary, rather than Lynda and Mary, since most of the latest Supremes singles that year were recorded with Cindy, not Lynda.

my guess is IGIMTM was recorded later. the show Pippin didn't even open on Broadway until late Oct 72. of course as a financial backer, motown would have been aware of the score and involved with the pre production of the show. but i'm guessing the girls recorded it in later summer?

[sup_fan]

It was the blackberries that was the added voices . Also Brenda and Billie from the undisputed truth did add background vocals to the girls song not replace them. They were the added voices to Up the Ladder not the Andantes. And to point out the songs that don’t have Mary or Cindy on them were either recorded before Jean was an official supreme or the song was meant for another artist [[i.e Then We can try again) or the unreleased unfinished songs that’s Mary and Cindy didn’t lay the vocals yet.

yeah i sort of use The A's generically, for all of the session singers that worked on Sups material. you do have a good point about Brenda and Billie. they did work on the Tops Still Water and their sound was so nice. they had a lighter, more delicate vocal sound than the A's which could some times get bogged down. they had a big, heavy sound.

so i agree that B and B were probably better augmentors for the Sups than the A's. you could easily slide them into the tunes without any problems

[sup_fan]

My question is, what DID Jean want to sing? It sounds like she wanted to ditch the MOR and showtunes. She reluctantly sang the Diana lead hits, as that's what the audience that came to see "The Supremes" wanted to hear. So what's left? There's been few instances where an LP cut was performed live. So I don't know what she wanted to fill a show with. Covers by the Carpenters?

my guess is her frustration with doing the 60s material was 1) the unfair but unavoidable comparisons with Diana 2) when they were almost doing more DRATS content than her own. by late 72 and into 73 they were doing 2 60s medleys and then maybe just Stoned Love and Bad Weather. 3) her overall disappointment with motown and how they were doing nothing to support her

and then they dumped most of the additional material that had been added during the Jean years [[feeling good, love the one you're with, love story, we've only just begun) and brought back DRATS songs [[somewhere, tcb, you're nobody)

so it would lead me to believe that she wanted to do more contemporary songs, more of her hits, more of her album material.

[jim aka jtigre99]

My question is, what DID Jean want to sing? It sounds like she wanted to ditch the MOR and showtunes. She reluctantly sang the Diana lead hits, as that's what the audience that came to see "The Supremes" wanted to hear. So what's left? There's been few instances where an LP cut was performed live. So I don't know what she wanted to fill a show with. Covers by the Carpenters?
From the accounts we have seen, Jean was somewhat difficult to work with. She was salaried and she was given the job as the new lead singer. Honestly, you would have to know what you were signing up for when she took the job in the Supremes. She apparently didn't like singing the old hits or do the act for which the Supremes had done for years. If Jean had ideas and plans she should have discussed them before she signed on. When she went solo to A&M in 1978, she didn't tour to support it. When she sang in the 80's and with the FLOs, she was singing what she didn't want to in the 70's. Plus, on here I read she also had some difficulties with Lynda and Scherrie. I honestly don't know what she expected to sing when she joined the group. She may have voiced her opinions as to what she would like to do and maybe got shot down by Motown, and to a lesser degree, Mary.

[sup_fan]

From the accounts we have seen, Jean was somewhat difficult to work with. She was salaried and she was given the job as the new lead singer. Honestly, you would have to know what you were signing up for when she took the job in the Supremes. She apparently didn't like singing the old hits or do the act for which the Supremes had done for years. If Jean had ideas and plans she should have discussed them before she signed on. When she went solo to A&M in 1978, she didn't tour to support it. When she sang in the 80's and with the FLOs, she was singing what she didn't want to in the 70's. Plus, on here I read she also had some difficulties with Lynda and Scherrie. I honestly don't know what she expected to sing when she joined the group. She may have voiced her opinions as to what she would like to do and maybe got shot down by Motown, and to a lesser degree, Mary.

as i understand it jean loves/loved to sing, being an artist. but she didn't love working as an entertainer. so many stars have given the advice to up and coming artists of "be sure to know and understand the BUSINESS, because that's what this really is. show BUSINESS."

prior to the Supremes jean was an unknown. her brother was somewhat known for a brief period as a boxer but i wouldn't put him in a mega-celebrity tier. his band with jean toured around a little but were hardly major stars. being with her family, the very low-key level of work they were doing, probably with considerable freedom in terms of what tunes they did on stage made this probably the best situation for jean. she wasn't one that was caught up in the star trappings. she wasn't necessarily looking for massive riches or huge world acclaim. she could have done this little bit of touring, maybe a record or two, sing her church choir as a soloist and raise a family. and probably been perfectly content.

[marybrewster]

as i understand it jean loves/loved to sing, being an artist. but she didn't love working as an entertainer. so many stars have given the advice to up and coming artists of "be sure to know and understand the BUSINESS, because that's what this really is. show BUSINESS."

prior to the Supremes jean was an unknown. her brother was somewhat known for a brief period as a boxer but i wouldn't put him in a mega-celebrity tier. his band with jean toured around a little but were hardly major stars. being with her family, the very low-key level of work they were doing, probably with considerable freedom in terms of what tunes they did on stage made this probably the best situation for jean. she wasn't one that was caught up in the star trappings. she wasn't necessarily looking for massive riches or huge world acclaim. she could have done this little bit of touring, maybe a record or two, sing her church choir as a soloist and raise a family. and probably been perfectly content.

The thing is, Jean wasn't joining the choir. She was joining THE SUPREMES. So unless Jean was stupid, she had to have SOME idea what she was getting into.

[sup_fan]

The thing is, Jean wasn't joining the choir. She was joining THE SUPREMES. So unless Jean was stupid, she had to have SOME idea what she was getting into.

i'm sure she knew this was huge. and various fans have shared different points of view. such as she pretty quickly discovered some of the down sides, that she and Mary had conflicts pretty much from the get go. but by the time all of that came about over those first six months, she had signed a contract, attended the farewell, had their first record pretty much ready to go.

it was too late to really turn back

also fans have shared that the first 12 - 18 months were really quite happy. sure not everything was perfect, but nothing is. the failure of the duets, the failure of the Touch lp and single, probably really impacted her. then you had the issue of her supposedly being salaried instead of earning royalties. not sure if that was the entirety of her contract or for an initial period.

but by late 71 she had been signed to motown for 2 years and in the public for 18 months. the sales were definitely declining. records were performing less on the charts. the show was still structured around the old formula, even if they were still using more current material than the DRATS songbook. The girls had limited at best input on the strategic direction of the group and the material they recorded and performed. As the lead singer she was doing the vast majority of the work and 1) being paid less and 2) having little input into how she should be presented. Bayou mentioned [[i think i remember the details accurately) that Jean was shown the Dynamite lp backstage or something and had had 0 knowledge that they were releasing ANOTHER duet album. and that she flipped her wig about it

then in 72 you had LSTB. Bayou also has mentioned that jean pretty much assumed that the movie would suck up any corporate interest in the supremes. that motown and everyone had moved on and again there was nothing the group could do about it. never mind that the group was still paying motown a % of every record and performance.

[marybrewster]

If she wasn't looking for massive riches or huge world acclaim, she shouldn't have joined. I'm confident that whatever she made with the Supremes, even by late 71, was still 10x what she was making with her brother.

So was it that she wanted a solo contract? She got that, then refused to do any touring or promotion.

And for as much beetching and complaining Jean did about singing "Diana's songs", she was sure quick to jump into the FLO'S to sing "Baby Love" for the 1000th time to get that paycheck.

Jean thought she could have it her way, and that's not the way showbiz works.

Jean is extremely talented, but should have never ventured into the entertainment industry.

[RanRan79]

Okay, this is a long one. Hope it doesn't bore you!:cool:

While I'm not discounting every viewpoint on the issue, I think it's worth mentioning that when we discuss Jean it's always what the fans said [[and I'm always left wondering how the fans know all of this, was Jean and company really in the habit of letting fans in on what was going on in the group?) or what some "insider" has offered up as an explanation, but never what Jean has said about it. Granted, part of this is Jean's fault because she apparently doesn't talk Supremes publicly, and when you don't talk, others will gladly speak for you.

I refuse to believe that Jean was stupid or clueless about the entertainment industry. I also refuse to believe that she joined the Supremes and did not expect to sing their hit songs. Sorry, not buying it. I'm not suggesting that she loved doing that, maybe she wasn't fond of the Supremes' hits, but again, she'd have to be stupid or clueless not to recognize that once she joined the Supremes, the group wouldn't suddenly stop singing the hits made famous by previous incarnations. Besides hearsay, I don't believe this was as big a deal as it is made out to be.

When it comes to Jean being difficult, who has really accused her of that? Mary has written things from her POV, which is understandable since they were in the same group and surely had differences of opinion which Mary could have viewed as "difficult" because they were in opposition to her view. But has any of the producers described her this way? Any negative talk from Frank Wilson, Smokey, Stevie? Jimmy mentions Jean and difficult in article MaryB posted, but it's worded in a way that it doesn't read to me that he's accusing her of being difficult with him, but difficulties between her and Motown, which certainly could have been the case. [[Although I stand by my initial response that those problems were not the reason the album tanked.) Did the group's reputation suffer with tv productions and club work because of Jean's "difficulties"? And it's been said that Jean questioned Motown about finances, which led to some bad blood. Was this Jean being difficult? Or was Jean right in wanting to get the money right, and Motown being difficult because it never wanted to pay artists what was due to them?

All we seem to have is a lot of speculation. I would venture to say that, apart from Barbara, Jean is the one Supreme whose first person viewpoint we have very little of. That being said, I'll add my own speculation out of the speculations bounded about regarding Jean all the time.

Jean valued her craft and she wanted her skill to be respected by everyone. Any time she felt she was being undervalued, she had an issue. I don't blame her. I suspect that Jean wanted to take the Supremes in a particular direction but she had no power because Mary was queen, and rightly so. Unfortunately, Mary was not the most risky personality, and I think sometimes Mary may have had an attitude of "who does this chick think she is coming into my group trying to run things", which may have also hindered the group's evolution.

Jean needed to find the right fit for her. MaryB's assertion that Jean didn't need to be in the music business belies the fact that other artists were able to craft out careers with some degree of artistic freedom. Why would Jean have been any different? Perhaps a group, especially one as well known as the Supremes, wasn't the best idea for Jean. Maybe Motown, certainly known as a label that pissed on artistic freedom 99 percent of the time, was the wrong label. Who knows? And until Jean opens her mouth about it, it is so hard to know what to think.

One thing's for sure from my standpoint: Jean Terrell in the music business was a fantastic decision. She is one of my absolute, hands down, favorite singers ever created, and I shudder to think of a music world where the only way one might experience the gift of Jean Terrell is if one happened upon the church she is singing in or caught her with her friends at Karaoke night.

[marybrewster]

Okay, this is a long one. Hope it doesn't bore you!:cool:

While I'm not discounting every viewpoint on the issue, I think it's worth mentioning that when we discuss Jean it's always what the fans said [[and I'm always left wondering how the fans know all of this, was Jean and company really in the habit of letting fans in on what was going on in the group?) or what some "insider" has offered up as an explanation, but never what Jean has said about it. Granted, part of this is Jean's fault because she apparently doesn't talk Supremes publicly, and when you don't talk, others will gladly speak for you.

I refuse to believe that Jean was stupid or clueless about the entertainment industry. I also refuse to believe that she joined the Supremes and did not expect to sing their hit songs. Sorry, not buying it. I'm not suggesting that she loved doing that, maybe she wasn't fond of the Supremes' hits, but again, she'd have to be stupid or clueless not to recognize that once she joined the Supremes, the group wouldn't suddenly stop singing the hits made famous by previous incarnations. Besides hearsay, I don't believe this was as big a deal as it is made out to be.

When it comes to Jean being difficult, who has really accused her of that? Mary has written things from her POV, which is understandable since they were in the same group and surely had differences of opinion which Mary could have viewed as "difficult" because they were in opposition to her view. But has any of the producers described her this way? Any negative talk from Frank Wilson, Smokey, Stevie? Jimmy mentions Jean and difficult in article MaryB posted, but it's worded in a way that it doesn't read to me that he's accusing her of being difficult with him, but difficulties between her and Motown, which certainly could have been the case. [[Although I stand by my initial response that those problems were not the reason the album tanked.) Did the group's reputation suffer with tv productions and club work because of Jean's "difficulties"? And it's been said that Jean questioned Motown about finances, which led to some bad blood. Was this Jean being difficult? Or was Jean right in wanting to get the money right, and Motown being difficult because it never wanted to pay artists what was due to them?

All we seem to have is a lot of speculation. I would venture to say that, apart from Barbara, Jean is the one Supreme whose first person viewpoint we have very little of. That being said, I'll add my own speculation out of the speculations bounded about regarding Jean all the time.

Jean valued her craft and she wanted her skill to be respected by everyone. Any time she felt she was being undervalued, she had an issue. I don't blame her. I suspect that Jean wanted to take the Supremes in a particular direction but she had no power because Mary was queen, and rightly so. Unfortunately, Mary was not the most risky personality, and I think sometimes Mary may have had an attitude of "who does this chick think she is coming into my group trying to run things", which may have also hindered the group's evolution.

Jean needed to find the right fit for her. MaryB's assertion that Jean didn't need to be in the music business belies the fact that other artists were able to craft out careers with some degree of artistic freedom. Why would Jean have been any different? Perhaps a group, especially one as well known as the Supremes, wasn't the best idea for Jean. Maybe Motown, certainly known as a label that pissed on artistic freedom 99 percent of the time, was the wrong label. Who knows? And until Jean opens her mouth about it, it is so hard to know what to think.

One thing's for sure from my standpoint: Jean Terrell in the music business was a fantastic decision. She is one of my absolute, hands down, favorite singers ever created, and I shudder to think of a music world where the only way one might experience the gift of Jean Terrell is if one happened upon the church she is singing in or caught her with her friends at Karaoke night.

Ran, I enjoyed your thoughtful post and wanted to be clear, I love Jean Terrell too. UP THE LADDER is absolutely magical, and is in my Top 5 of all Supremes songs, in any incarnation. Maybe even Top 3. But I hope you can appreciate what I was suggesting; that Jean, at least by actions, didn't fit the mold of what it takes to be in the entertainment business.

You record a solo album? You promote it. How much money and time and resources were wasted by her stomping her foot down and saying NO?

You join The Supremes? You sing the F out of BABY LOVE. And don't grovel about it, only to come back to it. There's a couple FLOS clips of JSL singing Supremes hits, and Jean is just TOO animated, TOO cutesy, TOO over the top with her gestures and movements.

[RanRan79]

Ran, I enjoyed your thoughtful post and wanted to be clear, I love Jean Terrell too. UP THE LADDER is absolutely magical, and is in my Top 5 of all Supremes songs, in any incarnation. Maybe even Top 3. But I hope you can appreciate what I was suggesting; that Jean, at least by actions, didn't fit the mold of what it takes to be in the entertainment business.

You record a solo album? You promote it. How much money and time and resources were wasted by her stomping her foot down and saying NO?

You join The Supremes? You sing the F out of BABY LOVE. And don't grovel about it, only to come back to it. There's a couple FLOS clips of JSL singing Supremes hits, and Jean is just TOO animated, TOO cutesy, TOO over the top with her gestures and movements.

Oh no, I understood your point and certainly didn't take it as an anti-Jean jab. I just wanted to be clear: problems or no problems, we needed Jean Terrell.:cool:

Again, there's just too many people speaking on Jean vs Jean speaking on herself. Even when we talk about Florence, she's pretty heavily documented with her own thoughts and recollections about her life and career, so while we still speculate about things, we can often draw on her own words to form our opinions.

Jean's reason[[s) for not promoting her first solo album have come from everyone but Jean. First it was her religious beliefs wouldn't allow for it and then someone said she had a baby at home and wanted to focus on that. I opined once that maybe something happened behind the scenes, like a "Me Too" situation. Again, I don't know that's a fact or even remotely close to what was going on. I just offered that up as one more thing we could put on a list of what went wrong with Jean's solo go.

I find it hard to believe that Jean, who was a Jehovah's Witness at the time, was being asked to do anything to promote her solo album that went against her faith. Don't forget, the Jacksons and Prince too were active JW's and they certainly had wilder careers than anything A&M could have even hinted at for Jean. Maybe she did change her mind and decide to focus on her child. Could it be the baby was ill or had some kind of special need? Babies are quick to throw a wrench into a plan with all the unplanned happenings that they bring. And if this is the case, I certainly can't fault her for deciding to put her child over her career. But it's hard for me to fathom that she was so wishy washy that one day she decides to focus on music, sign a contract, record an album, do some shows and television and then suddenly decide, nah, she's had enough of this. I just don't buy it. There's a story there. Time will tell if Jean will ever really tell it.

[SatansBlues]

This all goes back to the original question of why did Berry Gordy want to replace Jean with Syretta after Diana's final performance. Why did he change his mind? It was obvious that Jean could sing but what happened?

[jim aka jtigre99]

None of us really knows the inside story regarding this, we can only speculate with the information we have been given. The end results of things may only reinforce what we have heard. Mary did write that he wanted to replace Jean with Syreeta because she noticed that he had a harder time with Jean following what he wanted than he did with Diana. Remember he almost washed his hands when Diana didn't want to sing You're Nobody? So, who knows? I think if Jean had wanted a bigger career she could have had one. She certainly had the talent. It seems she clashed with Gordy and Mary and A&M, as well as sometimes with Lynda & Scherrie. It is something to wonder about, though.

[sup_fan]

Ran - yeah a lot of this is rehashed statements and comments from the more "senior" fans [[a nicer way of saying older lol). People like George and Andy and Harry and Bayou and others have worked with, interviewed, interacted with jean in the past and in more recent years. they've also worked with staff that was around during the 60s and 70s. people like Mickey, Gil, Cholly, etc. These people have also worked with lynda, scherrie, mary and the rest of the women. these people were working on, in and with the fan clubs back then, hung out with the girls some times, backstage interactions, etc. and then also more recent things like the EEs, interviews, books, etc.

now of course all of this is speculation on our part. these people are sharing their thoughts and memories but none of them are really wanting to trash any of the women or the history. and none of them have 100% of the story. all of this is us trying to take comments made here in the forum, on FB, in conversations, in books, etc and piece together a narative

[sup_fan]

sorry if my post painted too naive of a picture of Jean entering the sups. i'm sure the idea of fame and riches was enticing. that she would be one of THE SUPREMES had to be exciting. she [[and i think nearly all of the 70s members) have said friends and family also encouraged them because this would make them one of THE SUPREMES!

i'm sure jean also anticipated singing the 60s music. she was already doing a tune or two in her Heavyweights act.

from what i understand, jean was highly independent. she wanted to sing what she wanted to sing and how she wanted to sing it. motown was a much much more controlling environment.

i think the simplest way to describe it is "the bloom faded off the rose." at first it was thrilling and exciting. Bayou commented on a pic someone shared on FB of the girls backstage at the Copa in spring 70. they were greeting stars like Glen Campbell and Flip. and the smiles on the girls' faces couldn't be broader or more sparkling. Bayou mentioned that this was a really happy time with the group - they were doing great on the charts, RO was released and doing well, strong fan and critic response to the shows.

[gman]

Webb definitely knew who the Supremes were....My Christmas Tree has been said in print as being the first ever recorded Webb composition

Jean was a great Supreme...I do not like Syreeta's sound very much...I may have ceased being a fan...when it's said that Jean was salaried, I assume it means she wasn't getting a percentage of the live date earnings...but she must have received royalties from record sales...as the sales of LPS and singles dropped off, so did her income. Her brother probably guided her while making the decision to join the group....she must have been aware of the expectations....world touring with the Supremes is a different kettle of fish than playing lounges with Ernie and the Heavyweights....and perhaps...big word here...perhaps....she was willing to do all the hard work for 12-18 months to get the group established with a new lead singer...maybe she figured once that was done, the endless touring would be cut back so that she would be able to spend more time at home between engagements and recording...not everyone is a work horse...or a endless road warrior.

Maybe [[another big word) she just needed a lot more down time and longer breaks than being a professional touring performer allows....Seems when she was tired it triggered her irritability in both the Supremes and the FLO's

[marybrewster]

This all goes back to the original question of why did Berry Gordy want to replace Jean with Syretta after Diana's final performance. Why did he change his mind? It was obvious that Jean could sing but what happened?

So here's one angle that was never explored:

Doesn't the story go that the following morning of the last concert, that Berry called Mary and said he wanted Syreeta in the group? It's HIGHLY unlikely, but:

What if Jean called Berry first and said she wanted out? Maybe standing on stage with Diana, Mary, and Cindy that final night was a wakeup call and the "harsh" reality of what being a Supreme meant suddenly set in? Did she get cold feet? Again, it's unlikely. But I've always felt SOMETHING happened that night between the final bow and the legendary phone call.

[Boogiedown]

So here's one angle that was never explored:

Doesn't the story go that the following morning of the last concert, that Berry called Mary and said he wanted Syreeta in the group? It's HIGHLY unlikely, but:

What if Jean called Berry first and said she wanted out? Maybe standing on stage with Diana, Mary, and Cindy that final night was a wakeup call and the "harsh" reality of what being a Supreme meant suddenly set in? Did she get cold feet? Again, it's unlikely. But I've always felt SOMETHING happened that night between the final bow and the legendary phone call.

I like your thinking. Could be, although perhaps a bit too soon for the glow to wear that thin.... but certainly right at that moment it might have hit her, "what have i gotten myself into" ...

I'm remembering --- I think--- that Stevie and Syreeta attended that last show. Maybe Berry upon looking at Syreeta that night in that setting thought she visually would be a better fit than what he was seeing onstage with Jean??

....Maybe Stevie was pushing for it and that's why they were there [the rascals] ... maybe Stevie was a very important person to keep happy ... and now with his new ambitious wife and all....

wait a minute, have we done this one already .....hee haw!!

[reese]

So here's one angle that was never explored:

Doesn't the story go that the following morning of the last concert, that Berry called Mary and said he wanted Syreeta in the group? It's HIGHLY unlikely, but:

What if Jean called Berry first and said she wanted out? Maybe standing on stage with Diana, Mary, and Cindy that final night was a wakeup call and the "harsh" reality of what being a Supreme meant suddenly set in? Did she get cold feet? Again, it's unlikely. But I've always felt SOMETHING happened that night between the final bow and the legendary phone call.

In CALL HER MISS ROSS, Cindy did say that was some huge argument right after the Farewell show but she couldn't remember what it was about. She went on to say that there was a big blowout over Jean when they got back to LA but she and Mary fought for her.

[RanRan79]

from what i understand, jean was highly independent. she wanted to sing what she wanted to sing and how she wanted to sing it. motown was a much much more controlling environment.



Again, though, I wonder how much of that was really Motown pulling Jean back vs Mary pulling Jean back? Those first two years, I think we're all in agreement that Motown still regarded the Supremes as a priority. Not the priority they had been with Diana of course, but a priority just the same. I think they were still on the A list, just not at the very top of the A list. Lol

But just how involved was Motown in the continued direction of the group? Yes, the label greenlit the singles for release and the albums for release. And according to Mary, the label controlled the titles and the cover art. But with Gordy's attention pretty much laser focused on Diana, and to a lesser extent the J5, who exactly would have been saying "Okay girls, you'll sing this, you'll sing that and there better not be any backtalk!"? Who at Motown would have been invested in the songs in the act and dictated this, especially when things sort of fall apart?

That's why I'm looking at Mary. Seems like a scenario could be where Jean approaches Mary and Cindy, and then Lynda, with ideas and Mary shuts it down because it's too off brand for the Supremes, in Mary's mind. One has to wonder how excited Mary was for Stevie coming on to produce if she hadn't known him forever, he was red hot, and Lynda probably suggested it rather than Jean.

[RanRan79]

maybe she figured once that was done, the endless touring would be cut back so that she would be able to spend more time at home between engagements and recording...not everyone is a work horse...or a endless road warrior.

Maybe [[another big word) she just needed a lot more down time and longer breaks than being a professional touring performer allows....Seems when she was tired it triggered her irritability in both the Supremes and the FLO's

Piggybacking here:

Not everyone is a good fit for a group. I think groups had a harder road when it comes to trying to stay on top than single artists do. Plus, as I said before, a group like the Supremes is already a well established household name. Jean wasn't joining a "chasing fame" group, like Barbara did, or coming in to revive a floundering group, like Scherrie did. Jean's job was to help the Supremes stay at the top and the group had a super schedule of touring, recording, tv appearances, photo shoots, everything. While there's no doubt that Jean probably was somewhat overwhelmed with the entire experience at first [[who wouldn't be?) it is possible that the constant grind eventually wore thin, especially if [[a) she and Mary were bumping heads often, [[b) Motown was playing with the money. The stress of the job can always be better swallowed if the money is right, and when it aint...an unhappy employee can be a real buzzkill. Lol

Perhaps if Jean were a solo artist, she would have had a better chance at controlling her own schedule.

Another point to make is that the music industry is not made up of the same kinds of people or entities. Not every record label worked the same. So like with any industry, we sometimes find ourselves at a company that isn't cutting it. We're unappreciated, we're abused, underpaid, unfulfilled. We buy what the company is selling when we agree to be hired, only to find out the sales pitch and the actual job are vastly different things. So after a point, the employee moves on, hopefully landing somewhere that the sales pitch is reality.

My suspicion is that Jean needed a company that fit her and what she wanted going forward. Clearly she wanted to be in the industry because every few years she was popping up to do something. I think if Jean was coming along today, with the indie scene being what it is, she would have had an easier time. I think Jean was a bit before her time.

[RanRan79]

So here's one angle that was never explored:

Doesn't the story go that the following morning of the last concert, that Berry called Mary and said he wanted Syreeta in the group? It's HIGHLY unlikely, but:

What if Jean called Berry first and said she wanted out? Maybe standing on stage with Diana, Mary, and Cindy that final night was a wakeup call and the "harsh" reality of what being a Supreme meant suddenly set in? Did she get cold feet? Again, it's unlikely. But I've always felt SOMETHING happened that night between the final bow and the legendary phone call.

I don't think so. I'm guessing that even Gordy would have made mention of the reason he wanted to make the change was because the girl doesn't want the job anymore. And for all of Mary's sometimes nonsensical decisions, I can't see her being silly enough to think bringing in a woman who doesn't want the job would be the best decision for the group.

I know I've said it before, but why not say it again:p: I don't believe Gordy wanted to replace Jean with Syreeta. I believe he made the call to Mary knowing full well Mary wouldn't go along with it and it gave him his "out" with Mary and "washing his hands".

Time- 1972
Location- Gordy's House

Mary: Berry things are starting to fall apart a bit. The album with Smokey hasn't exploded like we hoped. The singles aren't burning a hole in the charts. Jean is unhappy. Cindy is gone. Lynda is already on my nerves. We need you. Why aren't you in our corner?

Berry: Come and get this memory, Mary. You recall a phone conversation we had the morning after Diana's last performance with you girls? I told you I didn't like Jean, I changed my mind, I wanted Syreeta in. You told me people in hell want ice water. So I washed my hands since you know more about how to run the Supremes than I do.

And scene.:cool:

Jean had basically been a Supreme behind the scenes for, what, four to six months? Gordy had surely seen what Jean looked like standing and moving with Mary and Cindy. He knew what she sounded like fronting the group in the studio. I can't imagine there was anything about Jean revealed that night that would have caused him to want to ditch her after introducing her as Diana's replacement. Was anyone expected to believe that Gordy and Jean talked shop after the show? Because that would mean Gordy didn't spend the entire night running up behind Diana, and I just don't see that.

And let's not forget, if Gordy really wanted Jean gone, she would have been gone. When was he ever in the habit of taking his cues from Mary Wilson?

[sup_fan]

Webb definitely knew who the Supremes were....My Christmas Tree has been said in print as being the first ever recorded Webb composition

Jean was a great Supreme...I do not like Syreeta's sound very much...I may have ceased being a fan...when it's said that Jean was salaried, I assume it means she wasn't getting a percentage of the live date earnings...but she must have received royalties from record sales...as the sales of LPS and singles dropped off, so did her income.

i've never read jean's contract. again, piecing together what others have shared, jean was salaried while M and C received royalties. my understanding of that is it was a probationary period. and i thought others have referenced 18 months. and that was her income, the flat salary. no royalties, no special appearance fees, no % of concert fees, etc.

now at the end of 18 months, what happened? did she only earn royalties on the records released after the probationary period ended? if a record that was released prior continued to sell, would she get royalties on that? don't know. And when did the 18 months start? when she signed with motown in roughly june 69? when she was assigned to the supremes? why would she have a probationary period if she wasn't really in a group? she would just have a recording contract and that's it.

[RanRan79]

i've never read jean's contract. again, piecing together what others have shared, jean was salaried while M and C received royalties. my understanding of that is it was a probationary period. and i thought others have referenced 18 months. and that was her income, the flat salary. no royalties, no special appearance fees, no % of concert fees, etc.

now at the end of 18 months, what happened? did she only earn royalties on the records released after the probationary period ended? if a record that was released prior continued to sell, would she get royalties on that? don't know. And when did the 18 months start? when she signed with motown in roughly june 69? when she was assigned to the supremes? why would she have a probationary period if she wasn't really in a group? she would just have a recording contract and that's it.

I don't think a company could salary royalties. I think Gman is right, that the salary would be off all the other income.

[sup_fan]

Again, though, I wonder how much of that was really Motown pulling Jean back vs Mary pulling Jean back? Those first two years, I think we're all in agreement that Motown still regarded the Supremes as a priority. Not the priority they had been with Diana of course, but a priority just the same. I think they were still on the A list, just not at the very top of the A list. Lol

But just how involved was Motown in the continued direction of the group? Yes, the label greenlit the singles for release and the albums for release. And according to Mary, the label controlled the titles and the cover art. But with Gordy's attention pretty much laser focused on Diana, and to a lesser extent the J5, who exactly would have been saying "Okay girls, you'll sing this, you'll sing that and there better not be any backtalk!"? Who at Motown would have been invested in the songs in the act and dictated this, especially when things sort of fall apart?

That's why I'm looking at Mary. Seems like a scenario could be where Jean approaches Mary and Cindy, and then Lynda, with ideas and Mary shuts it down because it's too off brand for the Supremes, in Mary's mind. One has to wonder how excited Mary was for Stevie coming on to produce if she hadn't known him forever, he was red hot, and Lynda probably suggested it rather than Jean.

i've wondered and asked the same things Ran. I too think in the first 18 - 24 months, the group was pretty high up the totem pole still at Motown. they got an album with a tear-away poster, several albums with gatefold sleeves and intricate die-cuts, a special DJ promo version of Touch with the interview. Yes of course motown would recoup these costs from the artist's sales. but they had to assume these albums would generate the revenue to cover this. otherwise motown would eat the costs if the act was dropped. it's not like they pulled a cheapy package like DRATS GH3 or marvelettes In Full Bloom where the front and back art are the same, just color vs b&w

as for group strategy and music, i too have wondered. some people have said "no motown still called all the shots." i find it amazing that mary and the group didn't have SOME say in their live act. they weren't 19 and 20 year old girls anymore. people have said "no motown demanded they maintain the ultra glitzy vegas/cabaret image and style" again, i struggle with that as the look of the group was really an outshoot of Diana and Mary and Flo's personal style.

I could see motown getting cold feet about the afro cover for NW and it being too militant. but if the girls were wanting a more up to date act with less MOR and more of their album tracks, i find it odd that motown would just refuse.

[sup_fan]

I don't think so. I'm guessing that even Gordy would have made mention of the reason he wanted to make the change was because the girl doesn't want the job anymore. And for all of Mary's sometimes nonsensical decisions, I can't see her being silly enough to think bringing in a woman who doesn't want the job would be the best decision for the group.

I know I've said it before, but why not say it again:p: I don't believe Gordy wanted to replace Jean with Syreeta. I believe he made the call to Mary knowing full well Mary wouldn't go along with it and it gave him his "out" with Mary and "washing his hands".

Time- 1972
Location- Gordy's House

Mary: Berry things are starting to fall apart a bit. The album with Smokey hasn't exploded like we hoped. The singles aren't burning a hole in the charts. Jean is unhappy. Cindy is gone. Lynda is already on my nerves. We need you. Why aren't you in our corner?

Berry: Come and get this memory, Mary. You recall a phone conversation we had the morning after Diana's last performance with you girls? I told you I didn't like Jean, I changed my mind, I wanted Syreeta in. You told me people in hell want ice water. So I washed my hands since you know more about how to run the Supremes than I do.

And scene.:cool:

Jean had basically been a Supreme behind the scenes for, what, four to six months? Gordy had surely seen what Jean looked like standing and moving with Mary and Cindy. He knew what she sounded like fronting the group in the studio. I can't imagine there was anything about Jean revealed that night that would have caused him to want to ditch her after introducing her as Diana's replacement. Was anyone expected to believe that Gordy and Jean talked shop after the show? Because that would mean Gordy didn't spend the entire night running up behind Diana, and I just don't see that.

And let's not forget, if Gordy really wanted Jean gone, she would have been gone. When was he ever in the habit of taking his cues from Mary Wilson?

there are lots of rumors on this topic too

some people said Berry made a pass at jean and she said no way

some people said berry, the producers and Gil [[for the live act) wanted to have more control over how she sang and she said no way

some people said early on she started to go against the grain of the image of the group and of motown. that she was far more outspoken

as for the infamous story in mary's book, i'm not 100% sure it played out EXACTLY as she wrote it. or if it did play out that way, i'm not 100% sure it would a total shock to mary that it happened. she even mentioned that she had noticed that berry was having a harder time getting jean to follow his direction to the T. my guess is that he did call her in Vegas but that this discussion had in some way or form come up prior. Cindy mentions meeting with Berry in LA AFTER the shows were done while Mary says after that phone call, there was no further conversation