Just a chime....or??

[westgrandboulevard]

Ha! I was speaking very generally there, and now I'm wondering if you were reading me right - but what you said does still make sense. LOL

And now the weekend is over, it's next stop Monday. Or is that Mmmmmmonday?

Of course, if it were 'Moneyday', many people's negative perception of that weekday would be transformed.:rolleyes:

[Jerry Oz]

I worked both days this "weekend" and am looking forward to three 12-hour shifts before Thanksgiving on Thursday. Fortunately, I have the next week off so there will be 11 days of relative relaxation followed by [[probably) two straight weeks of overtime [[weekends included) before Christmas... I should at least be rested to start that loathsome schedule...

[westgrandboulevard]

Does your work experience a marked increase in activity in the run-up to Christmas?

[Jerry Oz]

It's not related to the holiday, but the December is when a lot of businesses purchase equipment from us. They know that if they don't spend their budget then it will likely be smaller next year.

[westgrandboulevard]

Do their business financial years all end on December 31st, or is that because the end of your tax year is different from ours in UK [[April 5th)?

[Jerry Oz]

The tax year ends at the end of month. Consequently, they need to spend and we need to count it as revenue so there is a mad dash for both sides to transact as much as possible. It's been this way for as long as I've been here [[over 15 years now).

[westgrandboulevard]

It sounds as if, in common with many other businesses, a significant percentage of the annual turnover is achieved during the latter part of each calendar year...?

[Jerry Oz]

Pretty much. It's kind of a game in warehousing, no matter what is being distributed. The last chance to get revenue requires all stops to be pulled out, so anything that can be done to accommodate the customers is considered. I once worked 130 hours of overtime in December on top of the 168 hours per my regular schedule. But who needs a life outside of work, right?

[westgrandboulevard]

Too long at that rate Jerry and, sooner or later, there won't be a life for you at all, inside or outside of work.

That said, if you needed the money, then that's certainly a good enough reason to do it.

If you didn't, I'm wondering why you did it, and not something else....

[Jerry Oz]

At this point, I'm working less OT [[about 40-55 next month) even in the busy months. I wonder why I do it, as well. I could quit and do quite well with no income for six to eight years by my math. But, I'd like to move into a better home and I'm saving up for that.

I'm finding it hard to find another job at this point, I think that my current salary and 20+ years in the business are working against me and there's apparently a lot of competition for the positions that I have sought.

My wife is leery of me going the entrepreneural route, so I will just be patient. I plan to retire at 62 and I plan to live comfortably, so I'll put up with it for as long as I can before moving on.

[westgrandboulevard]

There's a goal in place, which is good, as you are able to measure your progress at any stage, and can feel self-motivated.

That's much better than the nagging, unhappy feeling of being on a treadmill, with no options or hope, working to someone else's expectations. That's the sort of added stress which makes people ill, even kills them, too early in their lives.

[Jerry Oz]

Absolutely. I am blessed to be with someone who [[for the most part) is on the same page as I am regarding financial matters. We are debt-free and the goal is to remain that way. At my age, I do not want to take out a 30-year mortgage, so it's a matter of figuring out of I want to buy the next place outright or not. I have to find an investment that will pretty much assure more return than the amount that I finance. Then I can determine how much to finance and for how long.

[westgrandboulevard]

On the subject of Thanksgiving, is it a national tradition in US to celebrate it with a roast turkey - and then do it all again a month later, for Christmas?

[Jerry Oz]

It's more of a Thanksgiving tradition than a Christmas tradition. That being said, I'll bet nearly as many folks eat turkey for Christmas as they do on Thanksgiving. I'm approaching my first meatless Thanksgiving and I'm looking forward to the spread my Mom is preparing. I was strongly considering eating the turkey gravy on my mashed potatoes but now I'm wavering a bit... There'll be plenty of other things to enjoy and butter is as good as anything on potatoes, I guess.

[144man]

Which is the bigger occasion, Thanksgiving or Christmas?

[Jerry Oz]

Christmas, by far. It's the pivotal commercial event of the year and it affects the economy if it is 2% more or less than expected. Both of them are good reasons to connect with family, but Thanksgiving is the more genuine holiday, in my opinion. I pull my hair out at the hypocrisy that is an American Christmas for too many reasons than I can list here. For some, it is still a religious observance but for 80% of us, it's an excuse to further the debt cycle for no reason tied to Christ at all.

[[Oops, I started listing them, didn't I...?)

[westgrandboulevard]

So, not a good time of year to be an American Turkey.....:[[

[Jerry Oz]

Well, many eat pork as a tradition on New Year's Day, so at least the chickens and cows can enjoy their holiday seasons.

[westgrandboulevard]

...while saying, "Let us eat and drink, for to-morrow we shall die"......

[Jerry Oz]

Well, we shall die tomorrow for sure. But, to be eaten? OMG.

[moe]

If you're the turkey, yes.........
Thanksgiving-Turkey
Christmas- Ham, Rib Roast, Turkey
New Years- Pork & Sauerkraut

[westgrandboulevard]

New Year's Day - Gaviscon

[moe]

HAHAHAHA!!! For some of us with cast iron stomachs.........FOOD and nothing but the food!!

[Jerry Oz]

My mom normally cooks chitlins [[or "chitterlings" if you're from the right side of the tracks) on New Year's Day. That was my favorite thing to eat until I stopped eating meat. I told her for the last five years to not waste ten hours cleaning and cooking something that would be gone in two hours but she did it anyway... Well, she can cook a few pounds less this year or have a few pounds left over after I leave. She's the best, so whatever she wants to do is fine...

[westgrandboulevard]

People do what they want to do, so best let them do it.

Maybe she's thinking exactly that about you, and will offer you a vegetarian alternative....

[Jerry Oz]

No need. I always find something to eat if I'm hungry. I was actually worried about turkey gravy on my mashed potatoes when I go over for dinner. Then I decided butter is almost as good and I wouldn't feel bad about it later. There's plenty to enjoy that I won't feel bad about later... I feel guilty to enjoy Thanksgiving so much but half of why I do is because I can spend time with my folks. This [[not Christmas) is the best day of the year for me.

[westgrandboulevard]

We don't have Thanksgiving here in the UK- or, if so, it has a very low profile.

I must say I prefer Christmas pudding over pecan pie, on any day of the year......

[Jerry Oz]

When you eat it, are you humming "Sweet Dreams Are Made of This"?

[westgrandboulevard]

I make my own, so I think "mmm, not so bad, even though I say it myself..." :o

[Jerry Oz]

So, give a man a Christmas pudding and he'll eat for a holiday but teach him to fix it and eat he'll eat for a lifetime?

[westgrandboulevard]

Mine hardly last a lunchtime......:p

[moe]

Missed what? See.............it's GONE!!!!!!!!!!!:p

[Jerry Oz]

I share those sentiments, BTW. If I can spend $15 to buy a pizza and be ready to sit down and eat in an hour vs. the three hours it takes to make my own, I choose to make my own. I'm not sure if I just like my own better or if it's my pride that I enjoy tasting...

[westgrandboulevard]

I'd go for both of those Jerry, plus the feeling of taking different components and creating from them something which wasn't there before.

But...... it's always good to know that if you're really short of time, $15 will sort it for you....

[Jerry Oz]

That a good point. And such a blessing to know that I have those 15 dollars, I might add. Another thing is the fact that I can account for my own ingredients [[almost everything is organic, non-GMO, or hormone free) and I know how clean my hands and cooking surfaces are. If I didn't suspend my squeamish nature every time I had restaurant food, I would never eat out.

[westgrandboulevard]

Eating in an operating theatre might be a reassuring experience - although the acoustics would be terrible...

[Jerry Oz]

?? "Operating theatre" must mean more than the obvious... Or did my meds wear off..?

[westgrandboulevard]

When you said 'clean hands and [[cooking) surfaces' , it was the first thing that came to mind:)

[Jerry Oz]

Ahh... Yes, my wife is one bubble short of full-on OCD and she has me grossed out at the thought of the unknown, in particular as it pertains to whether people care as much for hygiene when they know that nobody is looking.

[westgrandboulevard]

Although I do feel there is a line between simply being alert to threats, and becoming over apprehensive and anxious [[isn't that how phobias are triggered?) I can indeed imagine that many people out there really aren't too fussy....and not just about food hygiene, either...

[Jerry Oz]

And so, the old saw is true [[with modifications, of course): "What you don't know [[for the most part) cannot hurt you [[in many cases)."

If you are to maintain your sanity [[to say the least about your appetite), then it's best to avoid considering these things...

[westgrandboulevard]

I do think so. Just as an example, imagine if we could actually see all of the impurities in the air around us......:[[

[Jerry Oz]

I once saw how they process and stuff frankfurters... I have not eaten one since then. :[[

I also saw how they make pork rinds and process all of the human waste out of city water, but I've eaten the pig skins and drank the water in the meantime, so it's a selective process. At least now, in my meatless reality, I don't have to nullify the image of the pork rind process...

[westgrandboulevard]

I expect that, if we were to see what really goes on inside even our own bodies, we'd not always be too impressed....:)

[Jerry Oz]

And to think just a couple of hundred years ago, we would do all of the yucky stuff for ourselves...

[westgrandboulevard]

And in another couple of hundred years, what then,I wonder.....:confused:

[Jerry Oz]

Umm... I read somewhere that scientists are hard at work creating a marketable robotic... umm... companion :[[ to roll out in the next 20 years or so. If they can create something to do that, then I'm pretty sure we'll have some sort of droid to wash our toilets in restaurants while others fix our food. No more of those "wash your hands before going back to work" signs because there won't be any hands, let alone dirty body parts for them to touch.

So, I think we'll be okay in the future.

[westgrandboulevard]

Makes me think it isn't so very bad right now.....

[Jerry Oz]

We're already becoming a virtual society. I'm communicating with you from halfway across the globe but barely know [[or care to know) my neighbors. Gamers play in virtual worlds with people they will never meet. They could be next door to each other and it won't matter because they don't know each other, only their gamer handle...

The internet and especially social networks has changed human interaction for better and worse. We're at once becoming one world but simultaneously becoming lonelier in the process. Combine that with the fact that the real world grows more frightening by the day and you can hardly blame someone for locking himself up in social circles that cannot end up in a gunshot or stabbing when they say something rude. Tomorrow will be here as soon as tomorrow.

[westgrandboulevard]

Have you noticed that, even on SoulfulDetroit.com over the last two weeks, we're being invaded by aliens....?

[Jerry Oz]

I was going to wear a tinfoil hat so they couldn't read my thoughts. Then, I flipped back through this thread [[and others) and realized that I'm posting them for God and the world to read anyway, so why would I care?

Stoopid aliens.

[westgrandboulevard]

It's odd. Who's Online reveals a whole slew of these spammers, registering each day as members, with many then going on to view the threads. Some make it onto the member list, but many don't.

And, all the while, the member total displayed remains at 2192..........but which appears to be 'frozen', as the last member who was welcomed, Uwe Cremer, joined last June......

[144man]

It's very disturbing if new members aren't being properly verified.

[westgrandboulevard]

Yes it is, especially as their details are obviously bogus.

[144man]

I have reservations about some of the current users on-line. "Country" should be a compulsory field.

[westgrandboulevard]

I would agree with that. The first four details on our 'About Me' page [[first name, city, state, nation) should be compulsory.

If anyone finds that unacceptable, they still have the opportunity of being a 'guest', and to read the threads, but not to participate.

[Jerry Oz]

In perfect honesty, I haven't noticed. I do agree that this forum is only viable if the people who join and post here are interested in the common theme and also in honestly commenting on the threads without trolling or hidden agendas.

[144man]

The actual names being used are in bad taste and are a cause for concern. Why would a genuine poster use a name like "sexshop"?

I am beginning to wonder why there is the need for anonimity on a forum such as this. If people used their real names, perhaps it would discourage trolls and maybe everyone would get along better.

[westgrandboulevard]

I can see there are advantages to having a 'screen' name - and I can imagine there may be additional advantages of which I'm currently unaware, but which further protect my interests.

In a way, it's similar in style identity to when we were known as Mr A, Mrs B and Miss C to our colleagues and customers during working hours, and then often known by one's first name to the same people when not on duty.

I use my landline and mobile numbers also as a filter ,and generally do not answer if I do not recognise the incoming number, especially if it is withheld, or 'unavailable'. Genuine callers will leave a message, to which I will respond as soon as possible.

It's good to have the opportunity of sending personal messages to other SDF members, when I will generally use my own name.

I think 'recognition' and 'trust' are keywords on this topic . That is what unsettles me about new members who,by using names which are randomly and sometimes inappropriately created, may not be what the genuine SDF members would expect them to be.

[Jerry Oz]

Trolls thrive on attention. Typically, if they don't get the response they want, they will go away. Hopefully Ralph will be able police them before they have a significantly negative effect on the forum. We need to draw good members, not to drive them away with stupidity. Some suggested that there be mini-moderators in place to keep the pages appropriate by banning members who cause problems. Perhaps they are correct.

[westgrandboulevard]

I'm wondering if I should view them as just 'traffic' at the moment. Most new members who register do not go on to become regular contributors, many having zero or very few posts against their names on the member list.

This is,after all, a forum, so I guess it will never achieve the absolute state of perfection we each individually might wish it to be, as we would all differ in our ideals.

I'd say this forum can only be as good as the active and positive contributions made by its members, so perhaps best to keep our focus on that......

[Jerry Oz]

I was waiting in line at the grocery store service counter a few days ago when a crackhead stepped in place behind me. There were about seven people in front of me and the woman being served at the time apparently had a difficult transaction for the attendant.

The crackhead behind me took less than one minute to get agitated at the slow pace of the line. "This is bullsh*t!", was the first thing she said, saying it loud enough that she knew she was being heard.

When nobody in line co-signed onto her opinion she stirred. "Why's there only one person behind the counter?", still shouting. No responses.

"There's always a manager walking around until you need one! This it stupid! Why don't they have somebody else back there?" I didn't get the impression that she expected answers to her questions or that she commanded the respect that a response would provide.

At this point, I was about to step from the line, obtain an employment application, and advise her to fill it out since it was obvious that her expertise in retail management was exactly what the store needed. But I didn't. I don't engage crackheads typically; the encounters are seldom productive and I didn't feel like being thrown out of the store when I had a refund due for product being returned.

Instead, I relegated her chatter to background noise and found it easy enough to ignore her. Treat these invaders as such background noise. If nobody takes the bait, they will quickly become bored and go pollute somebody else's forum. If engaged, they tend to reproduce and things will never be the same. I've seen it and I know it to be true.

[westgrandboulevard]

Absolutely agree, Jerry. And reading of your experience, it's not difficult to see why transactions online are more attractive to people, than visiting a public place.

Do you have notices on display in certain places [[surgeries, post offices etc), as we do in UK, advising with words to the effect that they expect their staff to be respectful to their customers - but, in addition, that no disrespect or bad behaviour will be tolerated from their customers, who will not be served, and may be asked to leave, or banned?

I always think it's a pity it has come to the point where you go somewhere for service with a routine transaction, expecting to be polite to your own standard of behaviour, and then receive a message which seems to carry the inference 'don't even think about giving us any of your stuff'......

[144man]

There can be a thin line between "assertive" and "aggressive".

[westgrandboulevard]

It often seems that 'assertion' is 'aggression', just wearing a polite expression.

[Jerry Oz]

We don't have those notices, but I wish we did. For the most part, such experiences are very rare. With that being said, I have a low tolerance for people who demand my attention when their problem is not with me. If you are unhappy with customer service at the store, do what I do, which is refuse them your future business. Otherwise, shut yer yap and deal with a situation like an adult because you're not making one problem better by presenting yourself to be another one.

And I agree with 144man. Does it appear to anyone but me that people think the best defense is a strong offense, so before they are willing to hear someone say "no", they go overboard to tell them that they'd better not do it? Even to the point of implied threats. What has happened to civil behavior and acceptance of the rules of society? Even if you're 100% right, it isn't the end of the world to be told otherwise.

[westgrandboulevard]

I think a lot of it is a result of people not engaging with each other on a polite, civil level, and not being trained to recognise the needs of others.

I bet when you go to buy items in a 'bricks and mortar' store, as opposed to online, most of the time no-one 'sells' you anything - i.e. bringing the benefits of the product to your attention, after finding out what your requirements might be.

They simply think that 'selling' means taking your money by processing the transaction, or directing you to where you can make a self-selection.

[Jerry Oz]

Being African-American, it is even more discouraging. The cashier smiles at the shoppers in line before you but forgets to do it when she turns to take your order. She also thanked them and wished them a great day but the extent of conversation with me tends to be "did you find everything" and "do you have any coupons?" When you pick up your bags to leave, you see that she found her smile again for the person behind you and is engaging them. It can bug you if you let it...

I just make sure I don't give them a reason to behave that way. I engage them and make sure they see me smiling, so any problems will be with them, not with us. I also make a point of generously tipping good service at restaurants, even when the waiter performs with an expression that suggests he was sucking on lemons before punching in for his shift. I did that on my birthday last year and the waiter lit up as if he never expected a Black man to tip, let alone tip upwards of 20%. In spite of this, he did his job, so he was rewarded.

Service is a lost art... I smile as often as possible whenever I come in contact with salespeople and cashiers. I did that job for years, and I understand that it's not easy to serve. But by the same token, I always treated people exactly the way that I wanted to be treated and it's hard for me to figure out why everybody doesn't approach their job that way.

[westgrandboulevard]

I agree, it can indeed become difficult when the idea of personal service seems to represent better 'service' to other customers, yet also seems to be 'personal' against you.

You may be thinking that the sales person is perhaps having a bad day, and has things on their mind...but still there is a voice inside your head which is in disagreement.

And there is, of course, always the possibility that you, as a customer, have a greater degree of intelligence, sense of fair play and common civility than the salesperson standing before you.....

[Jerry Oz]

It is an irritating situation, but part of the larger malaise of personal service. My wife and I once went to a grocery store in a less-than-diverse part of town and we were struck by how very friendly the associates were toward us [[and everybody). It's not always racial; typically, I believe that the attitudes of the employees are directly reflective of the attitude of management. Not that employees who display a discriminatory bent are indicative of racist managers, but that employees need to be shown how to serve and how to encourage customers to return. If the manager says smile and be polite, then they will do it. The amazing thing is, not only will they find that they make their customers happy, but they'll also find that their own days tend to be happier as well.

[westgrandboulevard]

While it's not so obvious, I find smiles are as important, maybe even more so, when listening to someone on the phone.

The smile cannot be seen, but it can definitely be felt.

[Jerry Oz]

I absolutely agree with that. My wife called one of our utility companies when we were assessed a late fee [[the first with this company) to see if they would waive it in this instance after years of consistently paying on time. The woman on the other end was curt and stated that she couldn't do anything to help us. My wife asked for a manager and the service rep said there was not one there and "he might not be able to help you anyway".

When my wife asked when to call back, the service rep said that it was typically up to the phone representatives to waive late fees, unwittingly affirming that it was her choice not to waive the fee, not a matter of policy. Ultimately, realizing that she painted herself into a corner and was going to have a complaint lodged against her, she relented "just this once" and waived the fee. So, in doing us a favor after ten minutes of discussion, she wound up looking worse than if she'd left the fee on the account. I would have hung up and called back, knowing that the next person would have done it without all of the grandstanding but my wife is effective in how she handles these things...

[westgrandboulevard]

I don't know if you use the same word, but the woman on the phone sounds like a 'jobsworth' - as in the response when declining to do something requested of them : 'it's more than my job's worth to do that for you'.

If your complaint had gone in, I expect the call was recorded, and her lack of sympathetic tone of voice could have gone against her. So she would have required 'coaching', as I have known it described.

We had an ongoing problem at work earlier this year, repeatedly losing our internet connection. A series of engineers visited from British Telecom [[BT), including one lady, who did some remedial work. The fault continued, but on our next monthly bill was a charge for £250 [[maybe more..). This figure was then taken by direct debit.

It took quite some time for us to get them to understand that we had not requested the work, had assumed it was maintenance work, had not been informed it was chargeable - and which had not remedied the problem in the first instance.

We were pompously informed that a credit would be raised as a 'courtesy gesture'. By using that description, they clearly thought they were doing us a favour for refunding money for something we hadn't requested, and which hadn't solved the problem........

After several visits over a couple of months, the cause of the problem was found. A faulty hub. I'm not a technical person but, afterwards, I did wonder why they hadn't checked that first....

[Jerry Oz]

That situation sounds like it was good for a couple or aspirin or a stiff drink [[or both) after work. For some odd reason, I'm the guy at my warehouse who gets called to resolve things like that. We have no actual IT support on site and of course I am as dumb as a box of rocks, so I have to call the Help Desk when somebody wants to plug in a new phone after their previously one goes bad.

It literally takes three or four hours to switch phones and that burns my britches because it's not like I don't have other things to do. We're so far advanced that it takes two minutes to switch the device but another half a day to find someone who can convince the network to recognize it. SMH. I mention that because service vendors should realize that people are already frustrated to need the service, so it should be a point of emphasis to make their days better via a smile, positive attitude, or at least a word of encouragement.

[westgrandboulevard]

Absolutely. While it's unacceptable for customers to loudly and volubly expect service industry personnel to act in a strictly servile manner, it's just as unacceptable for service industry personnel to display 'attitude' to customers, talking themselves up as if they represented the hand of vast experience, reaching back to the completely uninitiated.

Imagine someone calling a funeral home to ask them to collect the body of a deceased loved one, and to receive a response on the lines of "Well yeah, OK, but you do of course understand that it happens?".......

[Jerry Oz]

In fairness to the service representatives, it's also possible that 95% of the calls they receive are hostile, so they condition themselves to expect every call to be combative. The attitude may be because most people are indeed ignorant of the service they expect or already a bit chippy to need the service to begin with. That's not an excuse for anything other than the utmost professionalism, but it might explain why some are combative from the moment they hear someone request satisfaction.

[westgrandboulevard]

That's how I feel. You've only to hear the background noise in those call centres, to imagine it to be like one of those huge, hangar style buildings, filled with thousands of chickens. It's dehumanising.

Most of us can expect quite a high success rate in our work but, yes, they'd be lucky to get 5%.

It's the wrong way round.

Makes you think there must be a more efficient way of tackling the challenge.

Do you receive a steady stream of what appear to be unauthorised phone calls at your home?

[Jerry Oz]

Yes, but I screen my calls. Most of them leave no message when I don't answer and my life is much simpler because of it. I don't even need caller ID because those who know me know to leave a message.

[westgrandboulevard]

That's exactly what I do. I have registered my landline number with the Telephone Preference Service [[TPS) to filter out unsolicited calls.

As you say. most don't leave messages if there's no answer - I use the BT 1571 facility, and the incoming calls just cut out when that kicks in.

Many of the calls [[mostly pre-recorded messages) now appear to come from your own part of the world, and are therefore not covered by the TPS exclusion.

[Jerry Oz]

We have the No Call Registry here that permits you to put your name on a list that prevents unsolicited phone calls. Of course, it's only as good as the companies that it covers, so the worst of them continue to bug people that they know are forbidden.

[westgrandboulevard]

Just like receiving emails which don't have an 'unsubscribe' link.

[Jerry Oz]

Or those that come unsolicited after you wrote to a company to complain about their service. No return call to address the concern that was raised; just the opportunity to receive the same bad service at 10% by end of this week...

[westgrandboulevard]

That certainly fits the description of 'distance selling'.

The company may as well be based on Mars.

[Jerry Oz]

Well, the company went bankrupt, so they might as well be on another planet.

[westgrandboulevard]

I often wonder how some businesses do keep going.

Some of the retail parks have huge spaces given over to masses of stock, but the number of customers is the same or less than many smaller outlets. They never seem very busy.

And while smaller independent stores steadily disappear, everyone is sitting around, drinking coffee, and looking at the internet.

[Jerry Oz]

People wonder what happened to that quaint little bookstore or that coffee shop with the waitresses who always seemed to share an honest smile. Well, they went out of business due to low patronage. Never do they wonder why they found it easier to drive further to get to Barnes & Noble or Starbucks. It does not seem fair shot when the people who claim to "love" them still prefer familiarity over new...

[westgrandboulevard]

It's fair to say that customers will always buy what they want, and where they want. So, I guess that determines the selection of businesses operating at any given time. And thank goodness for the internet, which allows customers and niche retailers to find each other.

We now have far too many shops in the UK. Most High Streets have a number of empty shops, and some with many. But new retail units are still being created in areas where the footfall is currently dense, so I imagine the empty ones in the old High Streets will need to be converted for residential use.

[Jerry Oz]

Or perhaps parking lots...? The times, they are a'changin'... :[[

[westgrandboulevard]

For many, the times are changing back to how it was in the beginning.

Smaller businesses often began from people's front rooms [[at least here in the UK) with local residents as their customers.

Now people once again operate businesses from home, but with the use of the internet, so their customers could be anywhere in the world.

We have the option of our groceries being delivered to our homes once again, and the large supermarket chains are now represented by small satellite stores, often on or near street corners, just as before.

What goes around, comes around - but with a twist, so never quite as before. Fascinating.

[Jerry Oz]

It is indeed fascinating. The old saw "if you build a better mousetrap, the world will beat a path to your door" has never been more true. However, that mousetrap has to have the correct marketing and optimal distribution strategy if it is to be sustainable. Often, it's not the first movers who succeed in the long run, but those who see what the first movers did and made small but critical improvements to their business models.

That's why Netflix beat Blockbuster and also why Facebook made MySpace nearly obsolete. To say the least of why Nintendo and Sega lost to Playstation; it happens again and again. Smart people realize that consumers won't be truly satisfied until they read our minds and deliver what we want before we even ask for it.

[westgrandboulevard]

The third sentence of your first paragraph rings very true with me. Taking something which is recognised as good, and using it as inspiration for a new venture, is logical, and proven very often to work.

As this is a Detroit Forum, it seems appropriate to say that I've been intently listening to Della Reese of late. I'm unsure if she ever recorded much, if at all, in Detroit, but I believe she is regarded as a Detroit girl, and one with her own distinctive style.

I've heard it said that Berry Gordy encouraged Diana Ross to listen to Brenda Holloway, for inspiration on technique.

I would also say that Diana Ross definitely listened to Della's crisp articulation and conviction, and also her deeper tones, and used them in performances of songs by Rodgers & Hart, also 'With a song in my heart/Without A Song'.

Back in the day, when I first heard The Supremes take on those songs, something did sound familiar, but Diana's voice is much higher and lighter, so the inspiration of the style was not so obvious. Now, at least to me, it is. And Diana indeed learned to sell those songs well, so it was a very effective marketing ploy.

[Jerry Oz]

There are so many musical clones in the industry today that you have to sell your difference in order to succeed. Not in sound or even quality, but in performance. The Temptations, Smokey & the Miracles, the Supremes, et al. all delivered both aspects: unique sound, wonderful acts. That level of professionalism is what's missing, in my personal view.

Berry Gordy was well aware of the importance of effective marketing. Sadly, music in the 21st century is deemed to be "popular" based more on image than substance [[at least it is in my opinion). If you cannot wow them with your voice, do it with shock value. Perhaps Norah Jones or Diane Schuur should be swinging naked from a wrecking ball in order to sell a few more records, a la Miley Cyrus? That's not to take a shot at the young woman who sits on top of the charts, either. I'm just too set in my old ways to appreciate it, I guess...

[westgrandboulevard]

Style over substance? Yes, that's exactly how I see it, too.

I was unpacking the groceries earlier, and Boyzone were on the TV, celebrating their 20 years in show business.

They are undoubtedly popular but, as I listened while I stored the goodies, for the first time I thought "None of them have any real stage presence, even Ronan Keating, who seems to be the star of the group. They are projecting no personalities of their own. The harmonies are not great. The lead vocals sound strained, and there's no melody in the voices. In fact, they are no more than competent".

I'll take that chair next to you, Jerry. We may get to like it in this old folks home......

[Jerry Oz]

Oh man, I hope I haven't become my dad...

You know, I'd be better about today's popular music if I didn't feel that there's a wizard behind the curtain telling everybody what they should like. I'd prefer people to hear the music, think about it and go out and purchase it to support the artist. Instead, I'm being spoon fed who the next hot thing is supposed to be. I wonder if payola laws apply to gossip shows? I'm pretty sure they do not and I'm always amazed at how they know which will be the next hot song or video.

[westgrandboulevard]

Yes, the cynical hype takes away all the spontaneous enjoyment of discovery.

As when I first heard, for example, the early Motown records, I still like to feel that I have found something which instantly impresses me, even if I may be in the minority. It then becomes an extra delight to learn that a lot of others are enjoying that same discovery, too.

These days, the money thrown into projects leaves me with the feeling that it now works the other way around - and that I'm simply following a crowd who are, as you say, being spoon fed.

It's not a feeling which leaves me feeling comfortable but, instead, rather remote and emotionally isolated.

[Jerry Oz]

Your post takes me back quite a few years. Between the late '70s and late '80s, I'd make a regular visit to record stores every pay day and buy 2-6 albums or cassettes. One of the singular joys was trying to purchase at least one record each week by someone that I never heard of, just to see if I liked what they'd invested their dreams into. I had a pretty good track record, mostly by recognizing when my favorite producers took on new and unknown acts, but there were a few dogs in there. Now, 30 years later, I have almost as much joy in digitizing some of those songs as I did hearing them the first time and part of that joy is due to the fact that nobody else really gave them a chance.

[westgrandboulevard]

If everyone who regularly posts here on SDF were to confirm their favourite Motown singles or albums through the years, I expect many of the titles submitted would never have featured among the biggest sellers.

I hope the young who now download tracks get the same excitement as I did, hearing new releases. While I miss that high feeling, I still find that a recently heard track can repeatedly go around in my head, just like the old days.:)

[Jerry Oz]

I seldom listen to any new music anymore... That's terrible for me [[again: Have I become my dad...?!) With that said, I love the song "Royals" by Lorde. It's the closest thing to powerful that I've allowed myself to admit hearing in years and it goes through my head frequently. Perhaps I need to get off of the rocking chair, do a little research and find myself. With that being said, I'm probably going to find that I enjoy more alt-rock than any modern Pop or what passes for R&B these days.

[westgrandboulevard]

I might find more in new music if I could just feel I'm listening to real instruments.

Real instruments + Real vocal talent, which moves me = Real enjoyment

[Jerry Oz]

And then there's the concept of having the "singer" perform individual lines dozens of times and having the producer pick and choose which snippets he'll put in the song. Some artists don't even sing the song all the way through on their records and only hear it for the first time after the true artist - the producer - works his magic.

Something is wrong with that...

And then there is also Autotune to consider...

[westgrandboulevard]

Yes, there is definitely something wrong if a singer can complete a song only if it is completed with the insertion of multiple phrases. llness and fatigue aside, if that is a repeated occurrence, they are studio singers only, and not stage performers in the true sense of the word.

I'm never quite sure how Autotune works. I can understand it can correct the singer's pitch, either from singing flat or sharp - but I would have thought its use could be detected, in changing the character of the singer's voice - ?

[Jerry Oz]

It's that tinny, somewhat computerized tinge that is on many singers' records these days. It sounds like they're singing into an aluminum can. And many of them aren't stage performers either, relying heavily on vocal tracks so that they can dance, leap, and emote with a high level of energy without having to hear the crowd hear them sucking for air. When they sing the song and it sounds just like the record, in spite of expending the amount of effort that would make Michael Flatley pass out, you can pretty much bet they ain't singin'...

[westgrandboulevard]

Are there any certain qualities in singing voices which particularly inspire you. and which make you feel "now that's what I call good", whenever you hear them?

[Jerry Oz]

Good question... The answer is "yes", but to tell you the qualities is much more difficult. I guess I know it when I hear it but cannot put my finger on why. When I hear Tamia sing "You Put a Move On My Heart", there is a point in which she puts soooo much soul in her voice, it gives me goose bumps. Every single time. I used to dislike Chaka Khan's voice until I saw a Rufus concert and she blew me away. I am now a fan. I have other examples...

I would also describe myself as a bigger fan of song stylists than I am of singers with technical skills. I may have to get back to you, amigo... I have some thinking to do.

[westgrandboulevard]

Good, do just that. In the meantime, I'm thinking too.

Yes, I agree, it doesn't matter if I know the qualities which move me may not, technically, be good - it's just the spontaneous 'hairs on the back of the neck" moments which do it for me.....

[144man]

Unfortunately, those moments are few and far between nowadays for me on new material.

[westgrandboulevard]

With me, 'few and far between' would be an over-statement on new material, as the answer is 'none'.

Give me the glorious oldies:)

[144man]

I could count the number of times on records made this century on one hand.

[westgrandboulevard]

I've no clue what is popular these days.

What is the current equivalent of 'Pick of the Pops' - ?

[144man]

Virgin Music On Demand has a "What We're Watching" Playlist, but it's certainly not what I'm watching.

[westgrandboulevard]

Sounds good enough for me.....not to watch.

[Jerry Oz]

Well, you are missing out. I challenge you to lay $150 [[92.12 pounds) to see Miley Cyrus in concert and tell me that she is not super talented. If "talent" is determined by how well she can lip synch while simultaneously twerking. It's not easy to hold a microphone and a joint while bent over, with your head nearly bouncing off of the floor, while still acting as if you're singing. It's a bargain at twice the price!

<Sarcasm off...>

[westgrandboulevard]

It would not be easy for you and me, but easy for her, if what she's doing comes naturally:rolleyes:

[Jerry Oz]

Apparently, it does. I guess you should try to be the best at whatever you do, even if it means you're good at being bad...

[westgrandboulevard]

Fast forward some decades, and picture the scene. Somewhere, in a quiet little residential home for the elderly, everyone is gathered around in the general lounge.

Then, one of the carers brightly says : "C'mon Miley, get up and sing us one of your songs from the good old days".........

[Jerry Oz]

My fast forward involves a group of teenagers watching her VMA performance. When she prances around in her skivvies and attempts to twerk, they all giggle at how fat she was and how people used to wear so many more clothes back in the 2010's.

[westgrandboulevard]

If we were to look back, I suppose Miley C's act would seem redolent of burlesque.

In comparison, Gyspy Rose Lee was a model of decorum.

[Jerry Oz]

The times - they are a'changin'. When my dad laments the kids with tattoos and sagging pants, I remind him that his grandfather looked down upon zoot suits and conked hair. If things did not go the next level with succeding generations, then there'd be nowhere to go [[and little to talk about, I'd suggest).

[westgrandboulevard]

I think we can absorb much from one generation behind us, but a second finds us noticing the differences in a negative light. Reminding us we're growing older doesn't help, either!

I could maybe guess, but what is 'conked' hair?

[Jerry Oz]

The process of using lye and other dangerous chemicals to treat the naturally curly and often kinked hair of Black people so that it straigtens out. Think about your favorite photos of Cab Calloway and Duke Ellington, and you'll get the idea. It used to be described as "fried, dyed, and laid to the side". For example:
http://images.nypl.org/index.php?id=4010861&t=w

[westgrandboulevard]

Like, for example, The Temptations had in the early days, I guess.

Would that styling be the same as what I've heard called a 'process' - ? The procedure sounds like a 'perm' in reverse.

I often wondered if the hair, when it was next washed, reverted to its natural state, and had to be 'done' again.

[Jerry Oz]

It is indeed a "process". I haven't heard it called that in decades. And you can't wash it out by accident because it is the equivalent of a chemical hot comb and should last for weeks. Think of it as the ancestor of the jheri curl. You can still find relaxers on store shelves, although I hope they are less painful than those processes that they used decades ago. If you ever watched Spike Lee's "Malcolm X", there's a great scene in which Malcolm Little is having his hair conked.

[westgrandboulevard]

This reminds me of Myra, a girl [[white) in my class in school, who had long hair which was wavier than she liked. She used to wash it, then iron it damp, to get it to go straight.

It sounds as if the jheri curl still needed a lot of maintenance. No wonder the black ladies were fond of wigs......

[Jerry Oz]

They were fond of wigs because their hair typically wouldn't grow longer than six inches or so. Funny that I love natural hair, much more than anything that has a gel or process on it. There's a woman that works with me [[she's white) and she has long beautiful hair that she sets in a variety of braids and twists. Curiously, when she doesn't have time to do anything other than straighten it and let it drop, it looks so much better. Conversely, I love a short and natural afro, as well. I'm struggling to get into the more frayed styles of hair based upon dreadlocks just as I never liked microbraids. Simpler is better in most things and I wish more people would realize that...

[westgrandboulevard]

Nobody likes the way they look, I guess - so they just keep trying different styles - that is, until they reach the age when they don't care too much about it anymore:)

Congratulations on 5,000 posts!

[Jerry Oz]

Crap. I was shooting for 5,001... But thanks!

[144man]

Stevie Wonder's chiming in again about Christmas.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtgGBgpNcIo

[westgrandboulevard]

That track put a distinct spring in my step around a supermarket aisle this very week.

I'm still unsure if the band track was ever used for a different song but,even if not, it matches the mood of the season perfectly.

[144man]

It's my all-time favourite Christmas pop record.

[westgrandboulevard]

I still like Shaking Stevens' 'Merry Christmas Everyone' which, now I come to think of it, has a similar rhythm and same upbeat feel as the Stevie song.

[144man]

That's a good call. I'd never considered that before.

[westgrandboulevard]

Have you seen that new boy soprano who is currently popular [[can't think of his name offhand), and who has recently been performing Christmas carols and songs on TV?

I can well understand that, because he is so young, he might be nervous [[although he does keep grinning at the camera) and perhaps not yet using the degree of breath control which might be required.

Call me an old curmudgeon, but what I can't quite understand is how he is considered to be so especially talented. Is it my imagination, but it seems that every time I hear him perform, he sounds strained, and wobbles off-pitch.....?:confused:

[Jerry Oz]

I'm not familiar with that kid, but it only matters if some A&R guy convinced a label to put the bucks into promoting him. At that point, there is no "sink or swim", only "swim or we'll keep you in the shallow water until you succeed". If they want him to succeed, he'll be grinning at the camera until he either learns proper breathing or someone comes along that has his attributes and has proper control.

Merry Christmas, everybody. We made it almost until 2014; let's keep plugging away.

[westgrandboulevard]

His mother seems much to the fore in the promotion and interviews.

Make of that what you will.

Merry Christmas from the UK, where we have had days of extremely strong winds and rain, and where it now continues to rain.

The shortest day is behind us, Christmas is with us - so yes, here's to 2014. Let's hope it's a very good year in general for all of us here.

[Jerry Oz]

If I get a sniff of 2015, I'm pretty sure I'll have enjoyed 2014 [[generally, at least). And I'm soooo glad that the days are getting longer again.

[144man]

I am looking forward to getting TCMS12b, Unreleased Motown 1963, and Complete Invictus/ HotWax 45 Collections next year.

[Jerry Oz]

That makes it sound as if you're looking forward to looking back, 144man. I find myself doing that as well.

[westgrandboulevard]

Better the devil you know.

New ones to my ear, are good to hear - just as long as they are old ones....

[144man]

Unfortunately, I can't find a radio station that consistently plays new records that I like. Even artists like Snow Patrol and the Arctic Monkeys are hard to find.

[westgrandboulevard]

They've obviously been frozen out.

[144man]

You're only as hot as your last record.

[westgrandboulevard]

Yes, even The Temps could be hot, then cold

[Jerry Oz]

You two are so cool.

[westgrandboulevard]

Just chilling......;)

[Jerry Oz]

The story of my December, friend. It's going to be nearly 10 degrees today after nearly a month below zero. Tomorrow it is supposed to be around 5 and for the rest of the week, it should be near zero again for the daily highs. Somewhat uncomfortable, but all things being equal, I will take another cold day over none at all. Just one more reason to appreciate the coming Spring when she arrives.

[westgrandboulevard]

Similar here, but damp with it.

I can usually get by without gloves/mittens but, now that the hair is in less abundance, often use one of my beanie hats.

It's not my best look [[especially when used with glasses), and gives the strong impression that I have given my carer the slip, and am roaming unescorted, completely without direction.:rolleyes:

[Jerry Oz]

That happens to the best of us, I'm afraid. I look at photos of myself and wonder if I look like that to others. I swear that the guy looking back from the mirror has not aged or changed his sense of style since he was 16 years old, but the camera never lies...

[westgrandboulevard]

As long as we're happy, we may overlook the conspiracy of life, but the incontrovertible evidence of it is presented to us all the while by photos and mirrors:)

[Jerry Oz]

Maybe Living Colour had it right: When the mirror speaks, the reflection lies...

[westgrandboulevard]

Was that Living Colour the band - or another variety of LC?

[Jerry Oz]

The band. I love much of what they produced and "Cult of Personality" ranks near the top of my favorite rock songs.

[westgrandboulevard]

Well Jerry, do you know, I'd never heard of them, until I checked them out after reading your post.

I noticed the inclusion of the letter 'u' in their name, which I thought was strange - then noticed that their founder is English.

I must make some investigations!

[Jerry Oz]

They were a collection of musicians who, while highly respected for their talents, were somewhat pigeonholed as being a novelty [[read: Black musicians playing rock music). The most talented of them was probably Vernon Reid, who was an excellent guitarist. With that said, I prefer his rhythm work to his leads and solos, which sound more improvised than composed to me. I'd probably get beat up for saying that if I said it at one of their concerts,though...

[westgrandboulevard]

You refer to them in past tense, Wiki refers to them in present tense - and their own website uses both.

There does seem to have been some reunion, and they do appear to have dates booked.

[Jerry Oz]

I haven't heard any new content from them in years. I did see some of their club footage on television a couple of years ago, which looked like it was filmed in Europe in smallish venues [[400-500 people). Time for some research on my part...

[144man]

"Love Rears Its Ugly Head" reached #12 in the UK singles chart in 1991. I don't remember the record at all.

[Jerry Oz]

That's one of my favorites. It's one of the most well-polished songs that they did. If you don't like that cut, then you probably won't like anything else that they've done.

[westgrandboulevard]

Well, as a critique, at least it's honest :)

[144man]

Just watched it on Youtube and I can live with it. Not keen on their James Brown cover though.

[westgrandboulevard]

It would be difficult for anyone to out-JB James B......

[Jerry Oz]

That's why I'm leery of the James Brown biopic that is in production... If the actor portrays him accurately, it will be seen as a caricature and possibly comic [[a la Eddie Murphy) and if he plays him dramatically but out of character, it will be panned as "not being like James Brown". Jamie Foxx got away with doing a Ray Charles impersonation for "Ray", but I wonder if that will be the approach for the JB film?

[westgrandboulevard]

I feel the success of biopics largely depends on how they succeed with people who are only vaguely familiar with the artist, if at all.

If the audience enjoys the picture for itself, and then wants to know more on said artist, it has been successful. If at least some of their devoted fans also like the picture, that is a real boost.

"Ray", "Lady Sings The Blues", "What's Love Got To Do With It", just as examples, were rattling good stories, and emotionally involving films in their own right, despite any factual inaccuracies which would undoubtedly annoy some people.

I'd go for dramatic, over caricature. We'll see.....

[Jerry Oz]

I saw a documentary about James Brown on PBS. For the parts where he was "narrating" during the voice over, they used a voice actor because his voice by that time was unintelligible. Everybody laughed when Eddie Murphy did his act about James Brown and there were even songs with people outright mimicking him. James Brown is well known by so many people that he seems like a wonderful topic for film exploration but also the largest risk for anybody but [[perhaps) Michael Jackson to be treated. When the first trailer drops, I guarantee we'll be able to tell whether the film succeeds or fails.

[westgrandboulevard]

If photos of Chuck Berry, Fats Domino, Otis Redding, Marvin Gaye, Wilson Pickett and James Brown were shown to people in the street, and they were asked to identify which was JB, I wonder what the success rate would be...

[Jerry Oz]

Good question. In a similar vein, when Michael Jackson died, I told my wife [[after she woke from a brief nap) that "the world's most famous man died today." She guessed for nearly half an hour before giving up because it was unfathomable that I was talking about him. Even after all of the questions that she asked and hints I provided. I stand by that assessment of him as we had 30 days of coverage every night on the network news to remind us. They even went to the most remote parts of Africa and South America to find his fans. I submit to you that he was easily the most recognized man ever.

[westgrandboulevard]

Not in the UK, I wouldn't think. The average adult just might hazard a guess that he is a 'Motown' singer [[!) - and the kids wouldn't know.

[Jerry Oz]

!!?? That makes his choice of venues for his final 50 concerts all the more interesting. I assumed he had a rabid fan base in the UK.

And the man grows curiouser and curiouser, even past death...

[westgrandboulevard]

On the subject of biopics, if the artist has a 'name', that's a good enough reason for at least considering making a movie about them, especially if there is a talented actor around who is available, and can carry the part well - especially if they are a 'name' themselves. Whether what is portrayed is the truth is another matter altogether.

Taking absolutely nothing away from James Brown, who was remarkable in many ways, had many fans, and certainly had a 'name', but I'm pretty certain that, despite the US media going into overdrive, a considerable majority of the population might recognise 'the name' but could not tell you much about JB's music, or anything about his life. And that would be in the US, let alone anywhere else.

Just for interest, check out the UK chart positions for James Brown's singles sometime......

[Jerry Oz]

I'll do that tonight. I am not a fan of biopics for the most part. It's hard to create a two-hour film that would detail one night in someone's life without leaving out many of the important conversations and situations, let alone make one that accurately portrays a life of accomplishment. There are people, places, things, words, and feelings that all have to be left on the cutting room floor. It's not fair, in my opinion, because what gets cut reveals the bias of the screenwriter and director toward the subject.

To be sure, we are all flawed individuals. I did enjoy "Ray" and "Walk the Line" because they showed their subjects in a somewhat balanced manner, warts and all. I'd hate to see an accurate documentary of my life as told from the viewpoint of another. My loved ones would be shocked to find out that they don't know me at all... I guess that's true for most, though.

Biographies are unfair because the writer is presumptuous to assign the motivations and reasons for the subject's actions. And autobiographies are mostly bullsh*t because I'm not man enough to tell you the reasons and motivations for my actions, so I assume I'm not alone in that regard.

[westgrandboulevard]

Fame is such a strange thing. So elusive, yet so powerful.

My interpretation of it is that a certain number of people have a keen interest in what a famous person does, because doing so gives them personal entertainment - while the rest of the people are, by degrees, aware that someone is famous simply because of their name, but often not entirely sure for what reason, or maybe even care.:confused:

[Jerry Oz]

Are you curious as to why intense interest in celebrity falls under one of two categories: Either we elevate our idols to the status of gods who are perfect and incapable or having faults, or we want to believe that they harbor secrets and need to be exposed as being even "worse" than we are in most regards.

We've seen on these boards what happens when those opposite mindsets clash. For example, don't mention the Supremes without calling them "Diana Ross and the Supremes" or you get blasted by some; don't mention Diana Ross without expecting others to blast her as a devil and you for having the nerve to like her.

[westgrandboulevard]

Speaking just for myself, I will hear a singer perform a certain song, in a certain way, and it will move me.

While I may profoundly feel the emotion in their performance, I cannot present those feelings as well as the artist. That is their talent. They become a mouthpiece for my own feelings. What I suppress, they express.

As I listen, I am momentarily transported above merely routine activities - but that's all. I neither put my favourites on pedestals, nor put them down, as I would not be serving myself well to go to those extremes - but yes, I am certainly curious why others do sometimes appear to do just that.

I think it must be to do with personal identity, and whether a person is happy with themselves, or not. It may be that problems start when people identify too much with celebrities? Any criticism of said artists by others is then taken as a personal attack on themselves.

That's a real shame, in my book. We should be making the best of ourselves in our own way, and be quietly glad of the talent of our favourite artists, to help and inspire us.

[Jerry Oz]

I agree. It doesn't make me a bigger person to bring someone else down. And it doesn't affect me a bit if someone else engages in idol worship. C'est la vie.

And to your first point, I am also moved by performances. Sometimes, it may be one phrase within a song that takes me there; a sudden change in octave or a bit of inflection can be all that is necessary. That's why I'm such a big fan of Ella Fitzgerald, who was the unprecedented mistress of putting "oomph" into a note when nobody else would have thought to do so.

It is such a shame that there are probably hundreds of similarly talented singers who won't get the chance to bring joy to someone via record because they aren't skinny enough, young enough, sexy enough, or whatever else the A&R team feels is needed to sell records. And to filter the voices of those who do get a shot [[and have them lip synch in concert) robs us of the chance to actually hear the "singers" sing.

[westgrandboulevard]

I must revisit Ella. She has the most mellifuous of singing voices, but a slightly more raw approach than Ella's honeyed tones is generally more my preference.

Yes, there are still many talented singers out there but, if they are not promoted, presented and generally brought to our attention, we shall never hear them. The classic singers - for example, Ella Fitzgerald - were known for having a voice first, before any thought was given to image.

If new singers are to make a name for themselves, it looks as though self-promotion will need to be the way forward, instead of hoping to get a deal with a record company.

[Jerry Oz]

In truth, Ella, Billie Holliday, Nina Simone, et. al. would have a hard time in today's music industry. So many of them did not typify today's standard for beauty, which seems to be prerequisite #1 for getting a contract. But then, neither does Diane Schuur, and she's done quite well since given a chance. The lesson? Try, even when told to stop. And when it is time to throw in the towel, try some more.

[westgrandboulevard]

I suppose, in show business, looks and image are an important consideration for an artist, manager, record company, etc... - even if the decision is then made not to give too much attention to that side of the artist's appeal.

For me, I respond to the voice first. If I wanted to look at a model, I'd go to a fashion show or beauty competition - and to a circus, for an acrobat.

It wasn't any easier for the ladies you mention to make it in their day, maybe even harder than it is now, as it's more of a 'woman's' world now, than it was then - although a lot of women may still disagree with that.

One thought crossed my mind - but I wouldn't know the answer. Were there more singers looking for a big break back in those days - or are there more now?

[Jerry Oz]

I would think more people are looking for their big break these days. Shows like "The X-Factor", "American Idol", and "Britain's/America's/Australia's Got Talent" [[hate that name, BTW) are leading even the least talented performers to believe that they have a shot at stardom.

Going back to the prospects of female performers, I'd love to see a movie about someone like Martha Wash who was the voice behind hit records only to have at least two groups front a thinner model in their videos lip synching her part. I'm sure she had little problem with it, but how sad that we are so superficial that the producers felt compelled to do that.

[westgrandboulevard]

There was an interesting TV programme over the holidays, featuring those largely unknown vocalists whose voices were dubbed for actors supposedly singing on screen.

[Jerry Oz]

Many think that it's a rip off of their talent, but if they didn't do it, someone else would and they'd be without the paycheck. Listening to artists complain about how they were taken advantage of bugs me sometimes. Would Little Richard have preferred to sing in obscurity in rural Georgia for next to nothing or to have become world famous and make music that immortalized him? Of course, the producers and record labels are full of douchebags who take advantage of artists, but the artists have to admit that on some level it was worth it if they are truthful.

They got to see the world, after all. And they did it for doing something that they would have done for free in somebody's basement for sheer joy of doing something that they do well. If you feel someone took advantage of you, learn your lesson, move on, and try to take advantage of someone else next time. That's the way of the world.

[westgrandboulevard]

I think many of the artists who feel victimised did also feel in their youth that securing a record contract and, even better, hit records, would make them a star for life.

They didn't read the small print on the contracts before signing, or were too young to understand the legal responsibilities of the contracts - or both.

It's always concerning to hear of those who fell onto hard times, but the positive aspects of the whole experience must surely have added something positive to a life which could have been much more mundane and uneventful.

[Jerry Oz]

There's something about human nature that does not permit satisfaction if someone else is getting more out of the deal. To wit: I want to pay you 50 pounds to play a game of marbles. You enjoy playing marbles and you are broke, so you're happy to receive it. At some point, you find out that I'm selling tickets and making 1,000 pounds on the game and you will become upset because you're being "exploited". And, God forbid, if you find out that I'm paying your opponent 75 pounds, then you will absolutely take nothing rather than make more than you'll earn doing anything else.

Why not focus on what you were happy to have before? Should it matter if I made enough to pay you more? If you had the chance for us both to give back the money we made, would you do it in order to make sure I didn't enrich myself on your efforts? It's crazy, but there are many people who have so much pride, they will take nothing over a substantial amount of money in the wrong situation.

In the music world, it gets even worse when a singer leaves a great producer, thinking that his voice is the reason for his success. Usually, the reason is to control his own career. However, many times he'll find out that in less-talented hands, he's little more than average. I've seen this happen time and again.

[westgrandboulevard]

I expect the pressure is greater to any of us whenever we feel "this is what I enjoy doing", or "this is all I can do".

Makes us watchful for other people's motives, and not to trust or rely on them.....

[Jerry Oz]

My pastor described "happiness" as something that is affected by outside influences whereas "joy" is solely from within. I submit that without joy, there will be no true happiness and if you focus on others instead of on yourself, it's much harder to have joy.

One of my brothers bought a house for $170K when the housing market was booming in the States. He sold it soon after for nearly $300K and bought a house that cost over $300K. He used some of the loot to put the kids through school, so he mortgaged the new house. When the market shriveled up, he realized that he was paying a $350K mortgage in a neighborhood that was in foreclosure, with houses selling for less than $200K. Although he was once very happy to pay his house note, he soon soured on the prospect of paying more than his future neighbors and permitted his house to be taken by the bank. Of course, his credit was killed in the process, but I guess his principles won out.

I ask you: What was different when he gave his house up from the day he very happily signed that large note to take ownership of it? The only difference is that he was less happy knowing that others would be getting a better deal than he had. I never talked to him about it because I love him and I know that would start a row that could last decades. But I still feel sorry for the fact that he let others rob him of his joy.

[westgrandboulevard]

It sounds as if your brother, like many, was as much in the business of making money from buying and selling property, rather than simply buying a home in which to live for an undetermined length of time [[?). For a time, that made good financial sense.

If so, what happened to him and so many others was unlucky [[very few people saw the slump in values coming) but is still partially due to the way investment works - values rising and falling. That is always a gamble, and hindsight is all very fine, but I guess he just might have expected that could happen, right from the beginning.

That said, if it killed his credit rating, maybe he hadn't thought it through - ?

Hopefully he has recovered from that knock-back? I think you are wise to say nothing. Even if there is probably little you can do about it, he just might think that you are being judgemental.

[arr&bee]

Well i see the gang' s all here,happy new year one and all.

[westgrandboulevard]

And to you, arr&bee!

Yes, we're all still here, in and out, just as and when we can.

You've been missed, and on the 'endangered species' list for months. What have you been up to?

[arr&bee]

Hey west you know me always waking up somewhere strange[hehe]lucky for me ralph was passing by and dragged me back across the fence,it's cold outthere...there's no place like home.

[westgrandboulevard]

That's true. There's no place like home, and your key still fits the door.

OK, so no, this isn't Kansas, but it's nice to see you again, 'Dorothy' - how was the Wizard, and where's Toto......? LOL

[arr&bee]

The wizard is broke,dorothy is pregnant and toto is passed out drunk.

[westgrandboulevard]

Then it's just the same as anywhere else in the world today....but still a good storyline for a sequel?

[Jerry Oz]

I hope moe and 144man are in the sequel...

[westgrandboulevard]

I wonder which parts we would all play.....maybe we will just have to appear as 'ourselves'...

[arr&bee]

I'm toto's stunt double.

[westgrandboulevard]

Then I could be The Wicked Witch Of The West Grand Boulevard.

[Jerry Oz]

I've been told by my co-workers that I'm somewhat of a "goldbrick", so I guess I'd be the Yellow Brick Road.

[westgrandboulevard]

So, when it comes to casting, don't you let anyone walk right over you.....

[144man]

What you gonna do with a chimney on you?

[westgrandboulevard]

Is smoking permitted on the set?

[144man]

Not next to the Scarecrow.

[westgrandboulevard]

It's a remake, so he'll be Flame Retardant, for Health & Safety reasons.....

[Jerry Oz]

Well, in today's world, I wonder if there would have to be a more gender-sensitive word to use than"witch"? Perhaps she'd be the "most unkind magic practitioner of the West"?

[westgrandboulevard]

How about 'witchard' - or 'wizitch'....

The kindest magic practitioner would have to be Aunt Clara, from 'Bewitched'....

[Jerry Oz]

But Serena was beyond a doubt my favorite witch. Elizabeth Montgomery was a special level of beautiful to me, even as a boy. Add black hair and a mole and she is still my dream girl...

[westgrandboulevard]

Hallowe'en must be a special time of year for you :)

[Jerry Oz]

Not really. But a bad girl who only has to twitch her nose to make something magical happens has certain appeal to me any time of the year.

Actually, my wife sometimes demonstrates that ability, now that I think of it [[albeit with more of an icy stare than a nose-twitch).

[westgrandboulevard]

I get the picture. The sort of "well????" look which is often accompanied by the placing of hands on hips....

[arr&bee]

Haaaaaaaaaaaaaa,well we will have scarecrow because it won't take any brains to make this flick.

[westgrandboulevard]

It will certainly need more money than sense, if it is ever to be made.

[Jerry Oz]

Would that make Ralph the Wizard [[working his magic behind the curtain) by default? He has the experience dealing with naive women, total dogs, and flying monkeys from moderating this board. He also has to deal with some of the most brainless, heartless, and cowardly folks that you could shake a stick at.

That is just my opinion, of course...

[westgrandboulevard]

And mine, too...as sometimes it does seem there is nearly as much fantasy going on at SDF, as in The Wizard Of Oz.

[Jerry Oz]

Ah, and we swing back to whether the person we "know" by their footprint on a message board is the real person or someone created to have a particular impression for the readers. It's our chance to live a fantasy life with an avatar and screen name of our choosing. That trumps reality, eh?

I'm pretty sure that I haven't posted anything online that I wouldn't be willing to say to anyone in open conversation, so if I'm hiding behind a curtain, it's not a very good one. Maybe I will create an alter ego, my own personal anti-Jerry, to see if I can figure out the allure of presenting a lie to others...

[westgrandboulevard]

I've wondered about all that myself, at times.

I guess all it needs is a different email address from the one we're currently using - ?

[Jerry Oz]

Probably, but I won't find out... If people are going to dislike me, it'll be because they dislike ME, not because I want to escape and get something off of my chest. Perhaps we owe it to ourselves to read what we post and decide that if we can hit "send" over the web, hit it in real life as well. You can't hide from yourself.

[arr&bee]

Haaaaaaaa,oh really i've been hiding from myself for years[i think]and i'm in no hurry to find myself...[you see i think i owe myself some money and i don't have any]i tried calling myself once but nobody was there,rode past the place but myself had moved and left no forwarding address,so i keep moving,almost ran into myself once but when i saw myself coming i ducked into a church myself would never look for me in there.

[westgrandboulevard]

Then best not look in the graveyard either, arr&bee.....:)

[144man]

Better not run into yourself, jai. You might mutually annihilate.

[Jerry Oz]

I hope the fact that you drink your own hooch doesn't start a fight when you go to fix a drink and have none...

[westgrandboulevard]

Oh well, if that happens, it's easy to forget what's never been remembered......

[Jerry Oz]

I read that post when I read it earlier. But then I forgot about until I read it again...

[westgrandboulevard]

Exactly.

Now, when that happens to me, I wonder to myself "Is this the beginnings of contented dementia - or simply ongoing demented contentia....?"

[arr&bee]

Oh oh gotta run,just saw myself in the mirror and myself is trying to get at me i'd better hide til this blows over,what silly place to put a mirror in the bathroom over the sink,myself has friends outthere.

[westgrandboulevard]

I'm beginning to think you need a good pair of running shoes. Looks like a marathon ahead....

[Jerry Oz]

That's funny... I was thinking that most of the road was behind us at this point in our lives...

[westgrandboulevard]

True, but maybe not if the road ahead were to take us in circles - ?

[Jerry Oz]

I'd like to say that I've seen it all by now, but this world gets curiouser and curiouser every day.

[westgrandboulevard]

So said Alice, while in Wonderland.....but arr&bee often has me thinking the same :)

[Jerry Oz]

And why not? All you really have is the present, but you can't very well make plans for that. So look with hope toward what's next and hold on until it comes. If it's a marathon, best to pace yourself...

[westgrandboulevard]

Yes, essential to keep the marathon pace moving steadily.

Just like some of the threads here on SDF :)

[Jerry Oz]

And yet, some are more like sprints. They start out fast and with a lot of replies and then suddenly, inexplicably fall away. Almost like the uncomfortable conversations between people who are in elevators who exchange pleasantries until it appears the other[[s) is getting to know them better. Best to let the awkward silence blare out how uncomfortable it is to reveal yourself to strangers...

[arr&bee]

Hey jerry you coming up with these little gems of wisdom and we're gonna call you...the wizard of oz.

[Jerry Oz]

Either what you said or the the "Wizard of Bullsh_t". :)

[westgrandboulevard]

Better to be the Wiz That Iz, than the Wiz That Wozn't.

[Jerry Oz]

Or, God forbid, the Wiz that Won't... :[[ If you've got it, flaunt it...

[westgrandboulevard]

If you got it, and you flaunt it, that should get you anything you wand.

[Jerry Oz]

That gets a rim shot and splash of the cymbal, amigo. Nicely played!

[westgrandboulevard]

Ha! Also known as a 'boom-tish' in my words - but your own words carry more gravitas.

You are a drummer?

[Jerry Oz]

Nope. I am a wanna bassist who does not have the ability to practice without the neighbors angrily knocking on the walls... Oh, they'd just love it if I played the drums as well.

[westgrandboulevard]

I can understand the reaction of your neighbours, but still frustrating for you. Perhaps a garage somewhere....

But, on the subject of drumming, maybe you can still tell me the difference between a 'lick' and a 'fill'......?

[Jerry Oz]

I'm not honestly sure, but I'd suppose the lick is the four beat phrase and the fill is the transitional beats that either take you from one section of the song to the next or pop up every 8 or 16 beats to break the monotony of the same section. The songs typically should be broken into sections and if there are no change-ups, it gets rather boring.

[westgrandboulevard]

I've noticed that Benny Benjamin had a tendency to add little jazz flourishes to what otherwise would have been a standard steady rhythm, if played by other drummers.

I've never been totally clear that what I'm hearing is a lick, a fill, or another term. By what you say, it sounds as if 'fill' is most likely the correct answer.

[arr&bee]

Whew you guys talking about lick and fill glad you cleared that up,i though the fcc was gonna raid this place.

[westgrandboulevard]

Oh, you mean the Federation of Cocoa Commerce?

[Jerry Oz]

No, I think he means Fans of Chinese Cinema.

[westgrandboulevard]

Well, those Geisha Girls in Japan have lots of fans.

[Jerry Oz]

I find Asian women particularly attractive, but there's something unsettling about the submissive image of a Geisha. I need to read more about them and their historical significance, though.

[westgrandboulevard]

The binding of the feet is something that I find unsettling.....

[Jerry Oz]

The world is full of horrible practices including, but not limited to feet binding, ritual scarring, and female [[and some would say male) circumcision. And I'm not counting the things people do voluntarily like having studs placed under their skin so they can sport horns and/or spikes, forking their tongues, intentionally keloiding their arms/backs/etc., and placing rings anywhere and everywhere that can be pierced.

I'm reminded of a hot day in the warehouse when a metal ring went rolling across the floor and one of my employees, an African national, ran to pick it up and return it to the person who somehow dropped it. "I've got your earring, friend," he said with a smile.

The other employee, wearing shorts on a hot summer day, gave him a somewhat sheepish look and explained to him "that's not an earring." At the realization of where the ring came from, the helpful co-worker apparently stopped smiling as he turned some odd shade of gray...

[westgrandboulevard]

Ha!, yes, personal adornments, where they are worn, and for what purpose [[if any) are very much a matter of preference. What one person regards as an expression of self, someone else would view as strange, or in poor taste.

I remember an aunt of mine looking askance at my platform heeled boots when I was in my 20s, and remarking they reminded her of surgical boots.

While I don't believe I'd have a tattoo of any size, I can see that a small tattoo, discreetly placed, does not detract from someone's personal apearance.

However, I've yet to see anyone exhibiting a large amount of tattoos who looks good. The effect somehow reminds me of an exhibit in a fairground or circus.

It's a fashion, but how do they remove them...?

[Jerry Oz]

I think lasers are sometimes used, but other than that, I don't know. Every Sunday as I sit with my Dad, I have to hear him repeat his complaints that he hates to see young men who wear dreadlocks or have their bodies covered in tattoos. It is not a look that I endorse, but I have to remind him that [[contrary to his assertions that they "want to look ugly", that if their girlfriends [[or boyfriends) agreed with him, they would not present themselves in that way... There is no accounting for taste after all.

[westgrandboulevard]

No, none at all.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder - even if the beholder is actually looking in a mirror:)