Movie changes.

[mowsville]

We all discuss and dissect the songs but what would you change or add to the movies that would improve them in our opinion....do we think the TV movies had potential to be big screen movies with some changes.

[sup_fan]

this is quite an interesting topic!

yes i think with some work, her movies could have gone over better. mahogany especially. it had the opportunity to be a real classic melodrama. i think the overall story works well, it's the details, the editing, the finesse that is missing. the Aunt Bea part could have been reintroduced later too. perhaps Traci brings her out to Italy too and that could help reinforce the fact that Traci is getting too far from her roots.

I also think Traci should have dove headfirst into more of the excesses being portrayed in Europe. i don't think she needed to be strung out on drugs but i think more being made up of her vapid lifestyle would have helped show the degree she'd gone and [[sort of) the degree she'd fallen. but of course they couldn't show Diana being too naughty. For instance, i think she SHOULD have hooked up with Christian. that whole plot line resolved too quickly and without enough development. And Gavina should have had a bigger role too. she and Sean should have been both leading Traci into her bad life.

in Wikipedia they mention Princess Galitzine actually playing herself in the movie. first i ever heard of it, but i think i remember Randy writing that they had actual royals in the fashion show scene. damn!! that would have given it even more glitz and insanity. have Traci actually spending time with the royals. just being more decadent

i think it would have been fascinating for Tony Richardson to have completed the movie. it could have been a real classic instead of a camp classic

[sup_fan]

as for the Wiz, it was always going to be crazy and wild. that's part of the story. I think the juxtaposition of this fantasy world and the actual settings around NYC was a great idea. there are a few key problems with the finished product

1. poor cinematography - good lord, could they maybe get the camera in on the dance scenes closer than about 800 miles from the actors?!?!!? everything is in such a huge wide shot. it completely removes the viewer from the songs and dancing, which should be exactly when you pull the viewer in

2. the whole EST bullshit - this crap about finding yourself was terrible

3. random trials and tribulations - in the 1939 movie, most of the obstacles in Dorothy's and the gang's way are set by the Wicked Witch as she attempts to exact her revenge on Dorothy. yes the mean apple trees are not and that's fine. but mostly the antagonist is the Witch. none of that exists in The Wiz. you're missing a villian and so when she gets to Evelyn, why is she there? why the conflict?

4. everything is about 3X too long - all of the scenes are just too drawn out and it drags everything down

5. relationship between Aunt Em and Dorothy - in the 39 movie, you do get at least a bit of an understanding that Em cares about Dorothy and Dorothy realizes she wants to get home because that's where the heart is. she sort of realizes this with Prof Marvel as she's attempting to run away. but can't get home before the storm. in the Wiz, Em just badgers Dorothy about giving up teaching Kindergarteners. why?? what's wrong with working with and educating small kids? why try and push her to High School since that's a totally different endeavor? so why isn't dorothy glad to be free of that nag? lol

[marybrewster]

Re: MAHOGANY

I wonder if in the end, the film was too artsy and over the top for the general audience. From the streets of Chicago to the runways in Rome just seemed like TOO much of a stretch; totally unrelatable. Could the story have been simplified and had Tracy find success in New York or LA?

Also, I've always thought the casting was odd. You've got Diana the star and Billy Dee [[whom she'd already appeared with in LADY). Her supporting cast made up of Anthony Perkins [[who'd had a spotty track record for films after Psycho in 1960), and a bunch of "no names". Would a cast made up of more popular actors made a difference? I think yes. But would they have played second fiddle to Diana? Male egos in the 70's? Who knows.

Also, let's be honest: the whole believability of Tony Perkins having a romantic interest in Diana, or a woman in general, is almost laughable.

[marybrewster]

Re: THE WIZ

Shouldn't that role have gone to Stephanie Mills, end of story?

[sup_fan]

Re: MAHOGANY

I wonder if in the end, the film was too artsy and over the top for the general audience. From the streets of Chicago to the runways in Rome just seemed like TOO much of a stretch; totally unrelatable. Could the story have been simplified and had Tracy find success in New York or LA?

Also, I've always thought the casting was odd. You've got Diana the star and Billy Dee [[whom she'd already appeared with in LADY). Her supporting cast made up of Anthony Perkins [[who'd had a spotty track record for films after Psycho in 1960), and a bunch of "no names". Would a cast made up of more popular actors made a difference? I think yes. But would they have played second fiddle to Diana? Male egos in the 70's? Who knows.

Also, let's be honest: the whole believability of Tony Perkins having a romantic interest in Diana, or a woman in general, is almost laughable.

haha yeah i was only focusing on the plot elements they should have revised. from a casting perspective, i agree that Tony was very weak. there's the story from Randy's book that they discussed Jack Nicholson [[or at least Diana wanted to consider him). i think he would have been much better. aside from Tony's personal life, he just seemed too scrawny and wispy to be much of a threat. I'm not opposed to Aumont being the older sugar daddy. sure they could have gone with potentially others. but i think he fit ok

they should have amped up Bruce Vilanch's role! hehehehe

i think with a stronger 3rd lead for Sean, the rest would have held up ok

[Ollie9]

Regarding Mahogany, Diana apparently wanted Jack Nicholson to play Sean with Berry telling her he was way to expensive. The film is badly let down by some weak performances by a few of the supporting cast. It’s all rather a shame as it does possess a certain amount of charm.
With the huge success if Lady, it’s strange how BG suddenly decided to penny pinch when it was usually no expense spared as far as Diana was concerned.
After Mahogany, she really needed a meaty role to prove Lady hadn’t been a fluke.
Playing Dorothy Gale at the age of 33 was never likely to earn her much kudos or further Oscar nominations.

[TheMotownManiac]

as for the Wiz, it was always going to be crazy and wild. that's part of the story. I think the juxtaposition of this fantasy world and the actual settings around NYC was a great idea. there are a few key problems with the finished product

1. poor cinematography - good lord, could they maybe get the camera in on the dance scenes closer than about 800 miles from the actors?!?!!? everything is in such a huge wide shot. it completely removes the viewer from the songs and dancing, which should be exactly when you pull the viewer in

2. the whole EST bullshit - this crap about finding yourself was terrible

3. random trials and tribulations - in the 1939 movie, most of the obstacles in Dorothy's and the gang's way are set by the Wicked Witch as she attempts to exact her revenge on Dorothy. yes the mean apple trees are not and that's fine. but mostly the antagonist is the Witch. none of that exists in The Wiz. you're missing a villian and so when she gets to Evelyn, why is she there? why the conflict?

4. everything is about 3X too long - all of the scenes are just too drawn out and it drags everything down

5. relationship between Aunt Em and Dorothy - in the 39 movie, you do get at least a bit of an understanding that Em cares about Dorothy and Dorothy realizes she wants to get home because that's where the heart is. she sort of realizes this with Prof Marvel as she's attempting to run away. but can't get home before the storm. in the Wiz, Em just badgers Dorothy about giving up teaching Kindergarteners. why?? what's wrong with working with and educating small kids? why try and push her to High School since that's a totally different endeavor? so why isn't dorothy glad to be free of that nag? lol

you took the words right out of my mouth. Except for a couple songs, I didn’t like anything about the movie. The lighting was bad the sound was bad the screenplay was atrocious the - only person whose performance I thoroughly enjoyed from start to finish was Thelma Carpenter. I cringed every time Michael Jackson opened his mouth. I have no idea what they were trying to prove with Richard Pryor. And I guess Nipsey Russell is pretty good. But I don’t blame the actors because I assume this is what the Director was looking for. If he was unhappy with Michaels reading of dialogue he could’ve cut it way back he could’ve worked with them had him work with the dialogue coach, I didn’t have to come out the way it did. This is what Sidney Lumet wanted, and he sure got a good one, But I can’t recall a more anticipated movie with a more disappointing reception.

[RanRan79]

Mahogany- I like the idea of expanding Aunt Flo's role. I also believe Perkins was a horrible casting decision. I dig the ending of Tracy returning to Chicago and reuniting with Brian, but I wish that there was an emphasis on the idea that Tracy could have love and achieve her dream at the same time, because Brian didn't give up his dream and he still ended up with the girl. I would have liked to see Tracy make it clear that she was in it for the long haul with Brian but also in it for the long haul with her dream as a fashion designer/model.

The Wiz- The cinematography is my only real complaint. The picture is incredibly dark. The beauty of the Wizard of Oz is the way the color pops. The Wiz had some beautiful sets, but it's all mired down in shadows.

[Ollie9]

Mahogany- I like the idea of expanding Aunt Flo's role. I also believe Perkins was a horrible casting decision. I dig the ending of Tracy returning to Chicago and reuniting with Brian, but I wish that there was an emphasis on the idea that Tracy could have love and achieve her dream at the same time, because Brian didn't give up his dream and he still ended up with the girl. I would have liked to see Tracy make it clear that she was in it for the long haul with Brian but also in it for the long haul with her dream as a fashion designer/model.

I think after Diana’s final scene with Christian, Brian should be seen standing on the street talking to an unseen Tracy. The camera would then pan out to reveal Tracy on her knees valeting his campaign van. One of her many contributions to his career. ;)

[mowsville]

I totally agree that some of the scenes in The Wiz were way too long with no relevance for them being that way....and some of the acting in Mahogany was very wooden...the Sean character was very lame..Jack Nicholson would have been perfect...and wasnt Levi Stubbs Gordy's first choice to play opposite Diana in Lady.

[sup_fan]

there have been a few people make claims that Levi was the first choice. i don't know about that. this was to be a DR vehicle. not a motown vehicle. and what if levi was stiff or lackluster on screen? also they needed to have some established players in the movie. by surrounding Diana with Richard, BD, james callahan, scatman, isabelle sanford, sid melton you have a solid cast that would provide credibility to the movie. and hopefully give diana the inspiration to perform off of their performances

[sup_fan]

i think a major mistake in managers Diana's film career [[by both motown and herself) was not consider more ensemble scripts. there's more of a pigeon holing of "black movies" than "black music." true back when motown started, black music was more relegated to the sidelines and the chitlin circuit and they basically knocked that wall down. so i can see how they'd might think lightning could strike twice. but there's more involved with movies and tv than music. i think having her in more group movies would have helped get her out of the "black" category. even today "black" films often don't break beyond a predominately black audience. representation is still very low whereas music is totally the opposite.

[reese]

there have been a few people make claims that Levi was the first choice. i don't know about that. this was to be a DR vehicle. not a motown vehicle. and what if levi was stiff or lackluster on screen? also they needed to have some established players in the movie. by surrounding Diana with Richard, BD, james callahan, scatman, isabelle sanford, sid melton you have a solid cast that would provide credibility to the movie. and hopefully give diana the inspiration to perform off of their performances

I don't know whether or not it is true. But Duke Fakir is quoted in J. Randy's Motown book as saying that while the Tops were on tour in Europe, Berry sent Levi a telegram telling him to come to LA because he wanted him to play Louis McKay.

Considering Berry did give small roles to Yvonne Fair, his brother Robert, and the Lewis Sisters, it isn't that far-fetched. I mean, even the screenwriters he hired [Chris Clark and Suzanne dePasse] had no prior film experience.

[sup_fan]

yeah but small roles for various motown people is very different then THE leading man. this was the guy that was going to be Diana's love interest. the most dramatic moments of the film would be involving the two of them.

i've heard duke's line about it too but i wonder just how legitimate it was. i could totally see berry wanting to pull Levi out of the tops and use him as an actor in other motown films. maybe he would have been the lead in Bingo for instance. i think the discussion about Lady was a test - would he/wouldn't he. if he said yes, Berry would have probably changed and had Levi in another role and then developed another property for him.

[bradsupremes]

Re: THE WIZ

Shouldn't that role have gone to Stephanie Mills, end of story?

Bingo! While The Wiz is enjoyable it could have been so much more. Diana was a total miscast. And isn't a bit embarrassing for a 34 year old woman wanting and playing a role that was created for and to be played by a child/teen.

[sup_fan]

Bingo! While The Wiz is enjoyable it could have been so much more. Diana was a total miscast. And isn't a bit embarrassing for a 34 year old woman wanting and playing a role that was created for and to be played by a child/teen.

agreed. they could have easily found a vehicle of a woman who was looking to grow and break free of her past constraints. basically turn her song Its My Turn into a movie. other than Grease, musicals were really a dying form in the late 70s so the idea of her singing in the movie was absolutely not a requirement. doing the theme song would be perfectly fine

what about something like A Star Is Born?

[bradsupremes]

agreed. they could have easily found a vehicle of a woman who was looking to grow and break free of her past constraints. basically turn her song Its My Turn into a movie. other than Grease, musicals were really a dying form in the late 70s so the idea of her singing in the movie was absolutely not a requirement. doing the theme song would be perfectly fine

what about something like A Star Is Born?

I know there were several projects that never came to fruition. One was definitely not a musical called Sesame Lady which would have paired her again with Billy Dee Williams. Then there's The Bodyguard which I think could have done well.

Unfortunately in Gordy's and Diana's minds, she needed to be doing films where she got top billing and the main character. I think because of that it hurt her film career. When you're the top billed star in your first three films and two of them underperform, you're quickly going to be seen as box office poison. Had she and Gordy been more reasonable in their approach, she could have done some films playing meaningful supporting roles that could have built up her repertoire and given her more clout to get the top roles she wanted. But in Gordy's mind, anything less than the top was not good enough which is a shame because her film career could have been so more had ego not been in the front seat.

[marybrewster]

agreed. they could have easily found a vehicle of a woman who was looking to grow and break free of her past constraints. basically turn her song Its My Turn into a movie. other than Grease, musicals were really a dying form in the late 70s so the idea of her singing in the movie was absolutely not a requirement. doing the theme song would be perfectly fine

what about something like A Star Is Born?

Or, of course, THE BODYGUARD.

Rumor has it that Diana and Ryan O'Neal were up for the parts, but I think O'Neal was too soft. You needed a man's man, like Steve McQueen.

Could Diana have played the part of Nonnie in THE POSEIDON ADVENTURE? She could have used her TARZAN swimming skills. Of course, that came out the same year as LADY, so maybe not good timing, but I think Diana would have excelled in a musical role that wasn't a musical.

[sup_fan]

Or, of course, THE BODYGUARD.

Rumor has it that Diana and Ryan O'Neal were up for the parts, but I think O'Neal was too soft. You needed a man's man, like Steve McQueen.

Could Diana have played the part of Nonnie in THE POSEIDON ADVENTURE? She could have used her TARZAN swimming skills. Of course, that came out the same year as LADY, so maybe not good timing, but I think Diana would have excelled in a musical role that wasn't a musical.

but even with her swim team background, she'd never have been able to compete with Shelley in terms of swimming lol

i could see during filming that Diana would be glowing red in the background, watching shelley do take after take. after a while she'd not be able to stand it anymore and would dive into the water herself, swimming past shelley and freeing scott and saving everyone lol

[sup_fan]

I know there were several projects that never came to fruition. One was definitely not a musical called Sesame Lady which would have paired her again with Billy Dee Williams. Then there's The Bodyguard which I think could have done well.

Unfortunately in Gordy's and Diana's minds, she needed to be doing films where she got top billing and the main character. I think because of that it hurt her film career. When you're the top billed star in your first three films and two of them underperform, you're quickly going to be seen as box office poison. Had she and Gordy been more reasonable in their approach, she could have done some films playing meaningful supporting roles that could have built up her repertoire and given her more clout to get the top roles she wanted. But in Gordy's mind, anything less than the top was not good enough which is a shame because her film career could have been so more had ego not been in the front seat.

yeah and it's not that she would have had to play just a bit part. a strong ensemble would still have her starring. alongside others. Murder on the Orient Express. Shampoo maybe?

diana would also have been wonderful doing voice over, like for disney

[Ollie9]

The character of Brian Walker in Mahogany is presented as a complete and utter dullard. Potentially homophobic, possessing a rather Victorian view of his girlfriends career. Why would the fun loving, talented and charismatic Tracey Chambers ever want to lumber herself with such a bore.
I would have liked to have seen further men lusting after Mahogany then a demented gay photographer and a man old enough to be her father.

[Spreadinglove21]

agreed. they could have easily found a vehicle of a woman who was looking to grow and break free of her past constraints. basically turn her song Its My Turn into a movie. other than Grease, musicals were really a dying form in the late 70s so the idea of her singing in the movie was absolutely not a requirement. doing the theme song would be perfectly fine

what about something like A Star Is Born?

One problem though--It's My Turn was a movie song, the theme to the Jill Clayburgh film It's My turn. I wonder if Ross was considered for the part that Clayburgh ended up playing?

[Spreadinglove21]

Mahogany was essentially a 70s update of a 1930s MGM Joan Crawford melodrama. Ross in the Crawford role, natch, Williams in the Gable role, Perkins in the Franchot Tone part, and Aumont in the Edward Arnold role.

[Boogiedown]

Diana peaked too high too early , then was hard tasked to sustain it,
and unfortunately slid increasingly downhill to her exit.
Didn’t the studios review the “dailies” on these films , surely they had concerns.
The Wiz likewise flushed it for Michael too.

[Jaap]

Re: THE WIZ

Shouldn't that role have gone to Stephanie Mills, end of story?

Than The Wiz would not have been made. Like Ross in it or not, her involvement made it a bankable movie.

[RanRan79]

The character of Brian Walker in Mahogany is presented as a complete and utter dullard. Potentially homophobic, possessing a rather Victorian view of his girlfriends career. Why would the fun loving, talented and charismatic Tracey Chambers ever want to lumber herself with such a bore.
I would have liked to have seen further men lusting after Mahogany then a demented gay photographer and a man old enough to be her father.

I don't think he was dull at all. I think he was a strong, charismatic leader who believed in helping his fellow man. Why wouldn't Tracy be attracted to that?

Brian's problem was that he believed what he was doing had value and what Tracy was doing did not. Obviously there's no comparison between someone's life work focusing on helping his fellow man and someone else's life work focusing on looking pretty, but it all has it's place. It didn't help things that when Tracy did go overseas she became exactly what Brian feared she would become. Tracy knew damn well Aunt Flo didn't raise her to be over there dripping hot wax on herself.:cool: [["Tracy have you lost your mind? Do you know how hard it was to find a candle during the Great Depression? And now your tail over here using them to drip wax on yourself? Where's my belt?!")

[RanRan79]

Than The Wiz would not have been made. Like Ross in it or not, her involvement made it a bankable movie.

If I remember correctly, Diana was not the catalyst for the Wiz being made. She heard about it after it was on the table. Whether or not Stephanie Mills had a legit shot at the role- and I personally don't believe she did- The Wiz was going to be some young girl's vehicle until Diana elbowed her way into it.

[sansradio]

If I remember correctly, Diana was not the catalyst for the Wiz being made. She heard about it after it was on the table. Whether or not Stephanie Mills had a legit shot at the role- and I personally don't believe she did- The Wiz was going to be some young girl's vehicle until Diana elbowed her way into it.

I seem to recall Stephanie relating Diana's confidence to her that only Diana, Lola Falana and Melba Moore were seriously in the running.

[marybrewster]

Than The Wiz would not have been made. Like Ross in it or not, her involvement made it a bankable movie.

Bankable, but a commercial failure.

[reese]

I seem to recall Stephanie relating Diana's confidence to her that only Diana, Lola Falana and Melba Moore were seriously in the running.

A while back, I recall someone posting an article in which Stephanie related a conversation she and Diana had about THE WIZ. I wish I could find the thread but I can't at the moment. Although I will say that I don't see Universal building a multi-million dollar project around either Lola or Melba. Neither had ever been in a hit film and both were in the same age range as Diana, Lola actually being two years older.

If Diana hadn't been introduced into the equation, I suspect Universal might have gone with someone like Irene Cara.

[marybrewster]

If I remember correctly, Diana was not the catalyst for the Wiz being made. She heard about it after it was on the table. Whether or not Stephanie Mills had a legit shot at the role- and I personally don't believe she did- The Wiz was going to be some young girl's vehicle until Diana elbowed her way into it.

Elbowed is putting it nicely. She was DETERMINED to play that role, even after Gordy said no. Which probably fueled a bigger fire within. How telling that Badham and 20th C Fox dropped out after learning she got the part.

[sansradio]

A while back, I recall someone posting an article in which Stephanie related a conversation she and Diana had about THE WIZ. I wish I could find the thread but I can't at the moment. Although I will say that I don't see Universal building a multi-million dollar project around either Lola or Melba. Neither had ever been in a hit film and both were in the same age range as Diana, Lola actually being two years older.

If Diana hadn't been introduced into the equation, I suspect Universal might have gone with someone like Irene Cara.

Ooh, Irene would have been wonderful! Or maybe Ren Woods, if not Stephanie.

[marybrewster]

How about Deniece Williams?

[Ollie9]

I don't think he was dull at all. I think he was a strong, charismatic leader who believed in helping his fellow man. Why wouldn't Tracy be attracted to that?

Brian's problem was that he believed what he was doing had value and what Tracy was doing did not. Obviously there's no comparison between someone's life work focusing on helping his fellow man and someone else's life work focusing on looking pretty, but it all has it's place. It didn't help things that when Tracy did go overseas she became exactly what Brian feared she would become. Tracy knew damn well Aunt Flo didn't raise her to be over there dripping hot wax on herself.:cool: [["Tracy have you lost your mind? Do you know how hard it was to find a candle during the Great Depression? And now your tail over here using them to drip wax on yourself? Where's my belt?!")

I beg to differ. Anyone who ridicules another’s dreams and aspirations because they consider it less important then their own career is actually worse then dull. I think if you truly loved someone you would encourage and support them in anything they chose to do in life, no matter what that career might be.
As if not bad enough, telling Perkins that he needed to put tags on his party guests as well as terrified of being thought a cissy by having a jacket fitting revealed a homophobic leaning that was less then attractive.
I rather feel his quest for wanting to help his fellow man would have depended greatly on the persons sexuality and appearance.
Its likely that Tracy would never again have had as much fun as when being coated in all that hot wax. It really is the best. :cool:

[sup_fan]

One problem though--It's My Turn was a movie song, the theme to the Jill Clayburgh film It's My turn. I wonder if Ross was considered for the part that Clayburgh ended up playing?

i was speaking more generally. the song seems to have always struck an emotional note of her really pushing herself to leave what was comfortable and known, leave the security of motown and go out on her own. that general theme could work easily for a drama. maybe the marriage is stale and she married someone she was "supposed" to but still thinks of her true love. or meets someone new and intriguing.

[sup_fan]

I don't think he was dull at all. I think he was a strong, charismatic leader who believed in helping his fellow man. Why wouldn't Tracy be attracted to that?

Brian's problem was that he believed what he was doing had value and what Tracy was doing did not. Obviously there's no comparison between someone's life work focusing on helping his fellow man and someone else's life work focusing on looking pretty, but it all has it's place. It didn't help things that when Tracy did go overseas she became exactly what Brian feared she would become. Tracy knew damn well Aunt Flo didn't raise her to be over there dripping hot wax on herself.:cool: [["Tracy have you lost your mind? Do you know how hard it was to find a candle during the Great Depression? And now your tail over here using them to drip wax on yourself? Where's my belt?!")

Aunt Flo wasn't wasting no time hunting around the house for her belt. there were plenty of wooden spoons right there in the kitchen. if they weren't handy, a ladle or spatula works just as well.

[reese]

How about Deniece Williams?

Vocally Deniece would have been perfect. But to my knowledge, she didn't have any acting experience. I don't see Universal investing in her unless she had a string of major hit records, something that even Stephanie Mills didn't have at the time.

[reese]

Ooh, Irene would have been wonderful! Or maybe Ren Woods, if not Stephanie.

I believe Ren actually played Dorothy in the Los Angeles version of THE WIZ.

[sup_fan]

I beg to differ. Anyone who ridicules another’s dreams and aspirations because they consider it less important then their own career is actually worse then dull. I think if you truly loved someone you would encourage and support them in anything they chose to do in life, no matter what that career might be.
As if not bad enough, telling Perkins that he needed to put tags on his party guests as well as terrified of being thought a cissy by having a jacket fitting revealed a homophobic leaning that was less then attractive.
I rather feel his quest for wanting to help his fellow man would have depended greatly on the persons sexuality and appearance.
Its likely that Tracy would never again have had as much fun as when being coated in all that hot wax. It really is the best. :cool:

i think it was the basic sexism of the era. sure women were making some strides but they were mostly still just "the secretaries" while the men were in charge. women typically sacrificed their career aspirations for their husbands.

but i too felt that Brian was a pig and i do wish they'd actually made a bit more effort to show the problem in this. Tracy could have had a wonderful monologue on this is what makes me happy, why wouldn't you want me to follow an idea or dream? just because it isn't yours doesn't make it valid and just because i have my dream doesn't mean i don't have the time energy or interest in yours.

and i wish that her coming back to brian wasn't such a surrender of herself and her dream. that they had somehow found a middle ground

[reese]

Elbowed is putting it nicely. She was DETERMINED to play that role, even after Gordy said no. Which probably fueled a bigger fire within. How telling that Badham and 20th C Fox dropped out after learning she got the part.

If J. Randy's last book is to be believed, Berry only said yes to Diana because Rob Cohen lied and said that the only reason it would be right to cast her was because Universal would pay her $1 million and it would get the film made. When Berry heard that, he acquiesced.

As this all took place before business hours, Cohen had to sweat it out until early the next morning when he called Universal and they said they would indeed be interested in having Diana play Dorothy and would indeed pay her the $1 million. When Cohen called the original director, John Badham, and told him the news, he dropped out.

[sansradio]

I believe Ren actually played Dorothy in the Los Angeles version of THE WIZ.

She was the road Dorothy, which is why I thought of her. And she had a little Hollywood mileage under her belt at this time with Car Wash​.

[reese]

She was the road Dorothy, which is why I thought of her. And she had a little Hollywood mileage under her belt at this time with Car Wash​.

That's interesting. I didn't know Ren played Dorothy on tour. I remember her in CAR WASH and later on, PENITENTIARY II or III. As a teen, she was a member of Sunday's Child.

It wasn't until the 90s that I saw a production of THE WIZ and when I did, Stephanie was reprising her role.

[Ollie9]

i think it was the basic sexism of the era. sure women were making some strides but they were mostly still just "the secretaries" while the men were in charge. women typically sacrificed their career aspirations for their husbands.

but i too felt that Brian was a pig and i do wish they'd actually made a bit more effort to show the problem in this. Tracy could have had a wonderful monologue on this is what makes me happy, why wouldn't you want me to follow an idea or dream? just because it isn't yours doesn't make it valid and just because i have my dream doesn't mean i don't have the time energy or interest in yours.

and i wish that her coming back to brian wasn't such a surrender of herself and her dream. that they had somehow found a middle ground

I think even for the 70’s many found the ending rather unpalatable. I very much agree that Tracys response to Brian’s consistently hurtful putdowns should have been taken a lot further. It’s a situation that many can relate to and would have added a certain amount realism to the script.
Brian eventually realising his mistake would then attempt to win Tracy back.....The End.
One can only assume Mr Walker must have been something of an Olympian between the sheets for all the s—t she takes from him lol.

[sup_fan]

I think even for the 70’s many found the ending rather unpalatable. I very much agree that Tracys response to Brian’s consistently hurtful putdowns should have been taken a lot further. It’s a situation that many can relate to and would have added a certain amount realism to the script.
Brian eventually realising his mistake would then attempt to win Tracy back.....The End.
One can only assume Mr Walker must have been something of an Olympian between the sheets for all the s—t she takes from him lol.

equally questionable is the scene in which Sean and Brian wrestle for the gun lol. as if Billie Dee couldn't take down wispy mamby pamby Anthony lol

again if they'd gotten Jack Nicholson or Steve McQueen, now you're talking a fair fight!

[RanRan79]

Ooh, Irene would have been wonderful! Or maybe Ren Woods, if not Stephanie.

Yes to both Irene and Ren! Irene's voice is obviously forever a part of pop culture, but it's a real travesty that so many people don't know Ren's terrific voice. She was great, and she was gorgeous too.

[RanRan79]

How about Deniece Williams?

Ooh that's an interesting suggestion! Vocally she would have been great.

[RanRan79]

I beg to differ. Anyone who ridicules another’s dreams and aspirations because they consider it less important then their own career is actually worse then dull. I think if you truly loved someone you would encourage and support them in anything they chose to do in life, no matter what that career might be.
As if not bad enough, telling Perkins that he needed to put tags on his party guests as well as terrified of being thought a cissy by having a jacket fitting revealed a homophobic leaning that was less then attractive.
I rather feel his quest for wanting to help his fellow man would have depended greatly on the persons sexuality and appearance.
Its likely that Tracy would never again have had as much fun as when being coated in all that hot wax. It really is the best. :cool:

I don't think any of that makes him dull. Flawed, sure. Dull? No.

Brian was a product of his time and, more importantly, his environment. Brian was trying to fix an impoverished community, bombed by racism, unemployment, drugs and crime. To him, someone like Tracy, with her brains and drive, choosing to look pretty for a living and play dress up, instead of use those brains and attitude to help the people, it was a foreign concept. In real life Brian would have been the rule, not the exception. A more interesting movie would have been Brian eventually understanding Tracy and Tracy figuring out a way to balance her initial dream with also "giving back" in the end.

It seems to me that the fun Tracy thought she was having in Rome wasn't much fun at all. That she was making some accomplishments, but was leaving herself behind. I've always read into the story that part of Tracy was definitely the southside of Chicago and in the end, even Rome couldn't compete with that. Brian is the southside, so is Tracy. She went back to what she knew and what she ultimately loved. If Rome was all that, she would've stayed and never went back home.

Brian was trying to make people's lives better. Tracy was expressing herself through the art of fashion. There's no comparison on which is contributing to the greater good, but there was a better way to craft the story so that both perspectives found a way to meet in the middle.

[Boogiedown]

Imagine had the story been redirected in the other direction so Brian instead joins Tracee in Rome.
“screw the down trodden , let’s develop a line of cheaply made but highly priced fashion, hey maybe basketball shoes !!”

[Ollie9]

I don't think any of that makes him dull. Flawed, sure. Dull? No.

Brian was a product of his time and, more importantly, his environment. Brian was trying to fix an impoverished community, bombed by racism, unemployment, drugs and crime. To him, someone like Tracy, with her brains and drive, choosing to look pretty for a living and play dress up, instead of use those brains and attitude to help the people, it was a foreign concept. In real life Brian would have been the rule, not the exception. A more interesting movie would have been Brian eventually understanding Tracy and Tracy figuring out a way to balance her initial dream with also "giving back" in the end.

It seems to me that the fun Tracy thought she was having in Rome wasn't much fun at all. That she was making some accomplishments, but was leaving herself behind. I've always read into the story that part of Tracy was definitely the southside of Chicago and in the end, even Rome couldn't compete with that. Brian is the southside, so is Tracy. She went back to what she knew and what she ultimately loved. If Rome was all that, she would've stayed and never went back home.

Brian was trying to make people's lives better. Tracy was expressing herself through the art of fashion. There's no comparison on which is contributing to the greater good, but there was a better way to craft the story so that both perspectives found a way to meet in the middle.

I think calling Brian a product of his time a really weak excuse for making it ok to crap on another’s hopes, dreams and aspirations.
I certainly do find his character as dull as ditch water, never once prepared to see things from Tracy’s perspective or embrace anything remotely new or different.
Just because he was well intentioned in caring about his surroundings, doesn't make him any less of a blinkered chauvinist.
The films ending really was the stuff of fairytales. Perhaps Tracy had developed a masochistic tendency to being emotionally abused.

[sup_fan]

I think calling Brian a product of his time a really weak excuse for making it ok to crap on another’s hopes, dreams and aspirations.
I certainly do find his character as dull as ditch water, never once prepared to see things from Tracy’s perspective or embrace anything remotely new or different.
Just because he was well intentioned in caring about his surroundings, doesn't make him any less of a blinkered chauvinist.
The films ending really was the stuff of fairytales. Perhaps Tracy had developed a masochistic tendency to being emotionally abused.

but you can't look at this through the lens of 2022. there were things that were acceptable to people and society back in 75 that aren't today. i do think you could have still brought Tracy's POV up that "hey don't shit on my dream" but the general thought at the time was that it's ok for her to give up her things for his

[RanRan79]

I think calling Brian a product of his time a really weak excuse for making it ok to crap on another’s hopes, dreams and aspirations.
I certainly do find his character as dull as ditch water, never once prepared to see things from Tracy’s perspective or embrace anything remotely new or different.
Just because he was well intentioned in caring about his surroundings, doesn't make him any less of a blinkered chauvinist.
The films ending really was the stuff of fairytales. Perhaps Tracy had developed a masochistic tendency to being emotionally abused.

I'm not excusing the way he came at Tracy about her aspirations or saying it was okay that he did that. I'm saying that the guy didn't spend his days saying to himself "How can I make Tracy feel like shit today? Hmmm, I know, I'll crap all over her dreams!" Brian didn't know any Black fashion designers, certainly none from their neighborhood. Another missed opportunity in the movie was showing how on one side Brian was telling the community the sky's the limit, but he himself had ideas about the community's limitations. There's long been a tradition for some in the Black community of a feeling of "go after your dreams, but don't get crazy". In other words, dreams are fine as long as they are realistic. Had Tracy told Brian she wanted to be a teacher, a doctor, a scientist, he likely would have encouraged it. Fashion designer? Model? That was beyond his idea of what a Black woman could be and he shit on it because to encourage it meant pushing Tracy to succeed and lose herself, at best, and pushing Tracy to failure, falling on her face, at worst. He loved Tracy but couldn't figure out how to love her dream. Again, the movie failed in that way.

Now it's been a long time since I've seen Mahogany, but unless I'm missing something, I don't recall him calling her a dirty ho or anything nasty and demeaning for having a dream. It's possible Brian wasn't much different than Fred Ross as his reaction to the dream Diana had before she made it. Brian, Fred, men of their time and environment. It doesn't make them bad people because of their inability to open their minds.

[RanRan79]

but you can't look at this through the lens of 2022. there were things that were acceptable to people and society back in 75 that aren't today. i do think you could have still brought Tracy's POV up that "hey don't shit on my dream" but the general thought at the time was that it's ok for her to give up her things for his

I think people in general are much more openminded today about people pursuing their dreams. Realistic, down to earth aspirations were what was encouraged in the 70s. I do think that people can certainly still be assholes in different time periods. Shitting on somebody's dream, whether it's 2022 or 1972 or 1862, is a really mean thing to do. But sometimes putting things into perspective of "another time and place" is necessary. I've always loved "I Love Lucy" ever since I was a kid. It's interesting to me that when I watch the show now, how often I get annoyed by the way Ricky sometimes treats Lucy, like she's a child and not his other half, his equal. Then I have to remind myself that it was the 50s and the show was catering to households all across the country that operated like the Ricardos, even though in real life the Ball-Arnez's were nothing like that. I don't watch Ricky Ricardo and think "asshole", even though ultimately that's what he was. I understand him in the context of the time. Plus, Mahogany, I Love Lucy, this is all fictional, art itself. The characters are ultimately how we view them, with no right or wrong involved, except for that what we put on the characters ourselves, largely driven by our own experiences.

[Ollie9]

but you can't look at this through the lens of 2022. there were things that were acceptable to people and society back in 75 that aren't today. i do think you could have still brought Tracy's POV up that "hey don't shit on my dream" but the general thought at the time was that it's ok for her to give up her things for his

Not quite accurate. Most of the reviews at the time mentioned how unlikely the ending was that Tracy would give up a life of glamour and a career she had trained for to devote herself entirely to her boyfriends career. Even Flo told her it was very unrealistic.
This was not the 50’s after all, but a time when women were starting to believe they could indeed do it all.

[Spreadinglove21]

I suppose ending of Mahogany could have tried to be both romantic and empowering by having Tracy, after the car crash, come home to Chicago and she leverages her fame and money to start her own fashion business--bring jobs and opportunities for the community. Brian sees this, is impressed and has a change of heart and they get back together.

[Ollie9]

I suppose ending of Mahogany could have tried to be both romantic and empowering by having Tracy, after the car crash, come home to Chicago and she leverages her fame and money to start her own fashion business--bring jobs and opportunities for the community. Brian sees this, is impressed and has a change of heart and they get back together.

Don't like it. Brian finally approves of her career choice and decides he wants her after all.
“Love means never having to say sorry”.

[mowsville]

How about the TV movies...what are your thoughts about those and what could/should have been.

[sup_fan]

i thought Double Platinum was a pretty weak concept and more like a Hallmark Channel movie for the holidays. it's almost like the reverse of I'm Living In Shame lol

now what about that!! lol people have talked about how Shame was a rip off of the movie Imitation of Life. so what if DR did a remake of that movie! imagine the easter eggs they could have included!

[Ollie9]

How about the TV movies...what are your thoughts about those and what could/should have been.

Although Diana's acting is extremely good throughout, Out Of Darkness is a film i rarely watch being not exactly uplifting.
Double Platinum is rather weak, with Diana and Brandy in tearful or angry mode for most of their screen time. I really only enjoy the scenes where Diana is singing.
It would have been interesting to see how well the duet “Love Is All That Matters” might have done had Brandy’s mother not got in the way.

[sup_fan]

Although Diana's acting is extremely good throughout, Out Of Darkness is a film i rarely watch being not exactly uplifting.
Double Platinum is rather weak, with Diana and Brandy in tearful or angry mode for most of their screen time. I really only enjoy the scenes where Diana is singing.
It would have been interesting to see how well the duet “Love Is All That Matters” might have done had Brandy’s mother not got in the way.

i think their duet was too mushy and saccharine. it's too much of the sloppy sugary ballads diana was doing in the 90s. the idea of pairing up with a hot young artist is great but they needed a much more contemporary song for it to be a big hit

[marybrewster]

You have to remember though, Brandy was on a hit streak in 1998/1999 with ballads: HAVE YOU EVER and ALMOST DOESN'T COUNT. Her album NEVER SAY NEVER also had a cover of EVERYTHING I DO I DO FOR YOU. Maybe LOVE IS ALL THAT MATTERS would have worked?

I don't recall what happened with Brandy's Mom? Did it have to do with billing? Brandy had had a huge duet with Monica in 1998, which I believe was credited to Monica, as her album was also called THE BOY IS MINE. Maybe something went down?

[reese]

You have to remember though, Brandy was on a hit streak in 1998/1999 with ballads: HAVE YOU EVER and ALMOST DOESN'T COUNT. Her album NEVER SAY NEVER also had a cover of EVERYTHING I DO I DO FOR YOU. Maybe LOVE IS ALL THAT MATTERS would have worked?

I don't recall what happened with Brandy's Mom? Did it have to do with billing? Brandy had had a huge duet with Monica in 1998, which I believe was credited to Monica, as her album was also called THE BOY IS MINE. Maybe something went down?

I don't think it was ever revealed exactly what Brandy's mother's problem was with the release of the duet.

But thinking about it, I could see where it would be seen as more of a benefit to Diana instead of Brandy. The duet would have gotten exposure from the tv movie and probably would have been included on Diana's new EVERYDAY IS A NEW DAY album. Whereas Brandy's latest album HAVE YOU EVER was almost a year old by that point so besides catalog sales, she wouldn't have benefited as much.

[sup_fan]

just read that, ironically, Brandy has recently signed with motown. also another source of irony is that Brandy's break-through was the duet with Monica on The Boy Is Mine. so that piggy backing helped launch her career

i haven't heard anything about her mom, if she was difficult or if she was like other celebrity parents. or maybe she just didn't like Diana

[reese]

just read that, ironically, Brandy has recently signed with motown. also another source of irony is that Brandy's break-through was the duet with Monica on The Boy Is Mine. so that piggy backing helped launch her career

i haven't heard anything about her mom, if she was difficult or if she was like other celebrity parents. or maybe she just didn't like Diana

In one post, Bluerock suggested that Brandy was difficult and her mom was worse.

THE BOY IS MINE is certainly her biggest hit. But Brandy had quite a few hits on both the pop and soul charts before her duet with Monica, including four gold and two platinum singles. And of course, she had her own series MOESHA as well.

[sup_fan]

How about the TV movies...what are your thoughts about those and what could/should have been.

it's a shame diana isn't more willing to do ensemble things. like the cinderella movie in the 90s. or the Wiz Live more recently.

this is a bit off the topic but i always wished someone like Jack in the tv show Will & Grace had idolized Diana instead of Cher. i know that cher was really perfect but always wish there were more references to Diana out there

[Ollie9]

i think their duet was too mushy and saccharine. it's too much of the sloppy sugary ballads diana was doing in the 90s. the idea of pairing up with a hot young artist is great but they needed a much more contemporary song for it to be a big hit

The way the duet was performed in the film was for me the more tooth rotting element lol. Given Brandy's popularity at the time it just might have caught the public’s imagination.
I consider the film far more cheesy then the actual song. Diana is weepy with Brandy perpetually bratty. It all vey sudsy and a little tiresome.

[mowsville]

So what would you change in Double Platinum to make it better?...if thats possible lol

[Ollie9]

So what would you change in Double Platinum to make it better?...if thats possible lol

Make Kayla an actress as opposed to a singer. Add lots more Diana/Olivia numbers.
Include a huge confrontational scene in the mode of Mildred Pierce.
”Get out Kayla. Get your things out of this house right now before i throw you into the street with them. Get out before I kill you”.
Get the idea. :D

[sansradio]

Make Kayla an actress as opposed to a singer. Add lots more Diana/Olivia numbers.
Include a huge confrontational scene in the mode of Mildred Pierce.
”Get out Kayla. Get your things out of this house right now before i throw you into the street with them. Get out before I kill you”.
Get the idea. :D

Yes! Olivia was such a punk with Kayla, it was nauseating! She should have jacked her up Clair Huxtable/Florida Evans-style!

[sup_fan]

Yes! Olivia was such a punk with Kayla, it was nauseating! She should have jacked her up Clair Huxtable/Florida Evans-style!

exactly! while Kayla was living with Olivia, she could sneak off to Baltimore to try and see her favorite band, The Wretched! when they get home, the first words out of Olivia's mouth are "Kayla - you march your fresh self out in the back yard and pick yourself a switch!"

and as kayla lurks towards the back door, Olivia calls out from the front of the house "and you know better than to get some dried out crusty old twig or a wispy little baby branch!"

[marybrewster]

To me, Diana just didn't come off as believable in DOUBLE PLATINUM. We all know how much she dotes on her kids, so to think that Olivia would just up and leave her daughter for a singing career is too much of a stretch, at least in my opinion.

[JLoveLamar]

Make Kayla an actress as opposed to a singer. Add lots more Diana/Olivia numbers.
Include a huge confrontational scene in the mode of Mildred Pierce.
”Get out Kayla. Get your things out of this house right now before i throw you into the street with them. Get out before I kill you”.
Get the idea. :D

Bit we'd have to see Brandy slap her and Miss Ross would have to fall a bit on the stairs

[sup_fan]

maybe turn Double Platinum into a remake of Mildred Pierce! lol