A declined 1982 supremes' re-union ??

[milven]

I just read of this on the Supremes' Wikipedia page.

In 1982, around the time that Motown reunited all of the Temptations, it was rumored that Motown would reunite the Supremes. The 1974 line-up of the Supremes [[Wilson, Birdsong and Payne) was considered for this reunion, which was to include new recordings and a tour. Under advisement from Berry Gordy, Wilson declined to reunite, and the idea was scrapped

Forgive my ignorance, but does this mean that Berry Gordy advised Mary not to reunite, or did Mary not take his advice to reunite? I think it is the latter.
If it is the latter, that Mary declined to reunite after Berry advised that it would be a good idea and would back her with new recordings and a tour;
then Mary made a mistake in my opinion. At this time, she was touring with every configuration of the Supremes' name in her billing with two non Supremes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Supremes

[reese]

In her book, Mary wrote that someone at Motown came up with the idea. Suzanne dePasse discussed it with Mary, a new album, a tour, etc. Mary was interested but didn't want to give up what she had achieved so far in her solo career. She also wanted to do some lead singing, which Motown objected to. They wanted Scherrie to do all the leads.

When Mary went to Berry's house for a meeting, she asked Berry what he felt about the project. Mary said that she knew that nothing would happen if Berry didn't get behind it. Berry told her that someone else had brought him the idea and basically said that he wasn't really interested in the proposed reunion.

[Boogiedown]

Makes sense to bring back the supremes at the same time as the temptations and wasn’t Motown’s roster seeming a bit thin then ? For that reason, I’d think Berry would want to go with it. [what’s there to lose?].
But then Berry might also worry that adding The Supremes might water down the significance of achieving a reunited Temptations.
If Berry wasn’t on board then who was the ‘Motown’ behind this reunion notion ?

Also leading into this entire storyline , I see it is lead off with the word “rumor”.

added: thank you Reese for already filling in most of the gaps:)

[luke]

I believe it was Suzanne De Passé. I wonder the response if it was jean and not Scherrie

[RanRan79]

It was an absolute worst idea. Period.

For us die hards, every lady from Barbara to Susaye is a Supreme, no ifs, ands, or buts about it. But to the general public the Supremes are Florence, Diana, Mary, and to a lesser degree, Cindy. In 1982 there was probably still enough memory among the general public of Jean, and if it were suggested that she, Mary and Cindy reunite, it makes at least a little bit of sense. Scherrie? The general public didn't give two nickels about the Scherrie Supremes.

The Tempts reunion was significant because David and Eddie, the two main lead singers during much of the Tempts glory days, were coming back, along with Dennis, David's replacement and lead singer. These were people the public "cared" about. Nobody would've given a second thought to the Tempts reuniting with Damon Harris or Ricky Owens. Lol And no one would have cared about the Supremes reuniting with Scherrie. It would have been a continuation of the last time they were together, where the public just wasn't interested. [[Yes, I recognize the chart success of "Heart Walking", but in the bigger picture it wasn't enough to make the Supremes "relevant" again.) To a lot of people, by the time Scherrie entered the picture, the group was just another group, not the legendary Supremes.

The only Supremes reunion that was guaranteed money in the bank in 1982 was Mary, Cindy and Diana, and that wasn't going to happen with Diana at RCA and still making hit records. Reuniting the group with Jean is the only other option that would make sense. But with the 50s and 60s nostalgia being a big factor in a lot of what was going on in the 80s, the Jean Supremes doesn't really fit the bill, so it's likely that even that might have been a bust, unless the group hooked up with top of the line producers who could maybe- just maybe- send the new/new/new/new/new/new Supremes on a Pointer Sisters type career phase.

Mary left the group behind for a reason. It didn't make sense for her to go back to struggling Supremes.

[khansperac]

Ran I agree with all, well most of what you said. But you have to remember this was 1982. Dreamgirls was a phenomenon, literally the talk of the town. So anything “Supreme” was guaranteed solid booking. This was also before Mary’s “comeback” with her book. She was performing at the Holiday Inn. She was already struggling.

[jim aka jtigre99]

I don't think the reunion would have worked well. The Temptations worked because they toured with their original lead singers in tow. Florence passed away 6 years earlier and Motown would never have considered her because of their past. Like stated, Diana was at RCA and had no plans to tour and reunite-doing so on Motown 25 was a mess. Mary had every right to want to sing some leads, she was pursuing a solo career and it just wouldn't be fair to have her not sing lead in a Scherrie and Cindy trio [[just like not being in on the planning stages on RTL wasn't fair but let's not get into that). If it would have been financially to her benefit than that wasn't always Mary's guiding force-fairness, her artistic aspirations as soloist etc. were also in mind , not to mention she knew if this reunion wasn't Berry's idea than the three of them would be treated less than ideal. A reunion of any combination other than Diana, Mary and Cindy would not have been considered something that Motown and the GENERAL public would be behind. Mary definitely made the right decision.

[RanRan79]

Ran I agree with all, well most of what you said. But you have to remember this was 1982. Dreamgirls was a phenomenon, literally the talk of the town. So anything “Supreme” was guaranteed solid booking. This was also before Mary’s “comeback” with her book. She was performing at the Holiday Inn. She was already struggling.

But would Dreamgirls really make the public accept a Scherrie fronted Supremes? Maybe, just maybe, a Mary fronted Supremes in the wake of Dreamgirls might have garnered some attention and support from the public. Mary said Motown wanted Scherrie to do all of the leads, but that seems weird since the last time Mary was a Supreme she was sharing lead duties to one extent or another. What made 1982 Mary different from 1970s Mary? Certainly not that she wasn't good enough. She seemed to have a better grasp of her vocal skill with every year that passed. So with Mary fronting the group, I might understand the idea.

Yeah, at this point Mary was struggling, but it's one thing to struggle on your own, it's another to struggle with two other women you may or may not get along with today or tomorrow. True enough, when it comes to Mary's recollections of Supremes, she seems to make it pretty clear that Cindy and Scherrie were the easiest Supremes to get along with, but a lot of time had passed since these ladies were Supremes together. And both Mary and Scherrie had done things on their own since leaving the group, so going back to a group may not have been easy for any of them, maybe especially Mary, since, looking back, I'm not sure she was ever truly happy as a Supreme after Florence was fired. I think she really did view the post Diana Supremes as a career lifeboat with a bunch of replacements. Not that she wasn't proud of the post Diana Supremes achievements, but her heart would always be the Supremes as herself, Florence and Diana. If she couldn't reform the group with the two of them, I think she was happier as a solo, and life is too short to be unhappy.

[RanRan79]

If it would have been financially to her benefit than that wasn't always Mary's guiding force-fairness, her artistic aspirations as soloist etc. were also in mind , not to mention she knew if this reunion wasn't Berry's idea than the three of them would be treated less than ideal.

I think that's fairly accurate of Mary, that no matter what, the financials weren't always the first thing she thought about. And yeah, if Berry was disinterested, it would've been silly to attempt to move forward. Mary needed to focus her energy on securing a deal somewhere for herself. The fact that she even contemplated this long enough to pay Berry a visit is further proof- to me anyway- that Mary wasn't focused 100 percent on landing a deal somewhere for herself.

[RanRan79]

Was it 1982 or 81 that Mary, Jean and another Supreme [[can't remember if it was Cindy or Lynda) reunited at a celebration for Frank Wilson and they sang to him?

[BobbyC]

I would have gone to see a Scherrie/Mary/Cindy show! The Temptations reunion was ruined by drugs, massive egos and the unreliability of Ruffin. The Supremes never really had those problems. All that being said, the average normie out there would have assumed a Supremes reunion would feature Diana Ross, not Scherrie. I think people would have been angry just like they were when the 5th Dimension continued on without Marilyn and Billy. Fans felt duped.

[carlo]

Was it 1982 or 81 that Mary, Jean and another Supreme [[can't remember if it was Cindy or Lynda) reunited at a celebration for Frank Wilson and they sang to him?

Not sure I've heard about a JML reunion for a Frank Wilson celebration? Perhaps you're thinking of the occasion when they reunited in 1984 at Jean's solo show? The footage is on YouTube...

https://youtu.be/Uo1MuOte3UU


https://youtu.be/Uo1MuOte3UU

Rod_Rick also confirmed in this thread [link below] that Mary attended an early FLOS show, back in the 80's, and Jean was seen at some of Mary's shows during that time as well.

https://soulfuldetroit.com/showthread.php?17263-Mary-Wilson-amp-Jean-Terrell-what

[Boogiedown]

I would have gone to see a Scherrie/Mary/Cindy show! The Temptations reunion was ruined by drugs, massive egos and the unreliability of Ruffin. The Supremes never really had those problems. All that being said, the average normie out there would have assumed a Supremes reunion would feature Diana Ross, not Scherrie. I think people would have been angry just like they were when the 5th Dimension continued on without Marilyn and Billy. Fans felt duped.
Add to that instead of being just the earliest members the group of temptations had ballooned to seven members. Maybe they should have gathered as many Supremes as possible….

The reunited Temptations did not exactly become headline news. Pop radio didn’t embrace them.
STANDING ON THE TOP did not make the top 40.
If that didn’t generate more excitement , what chance would a mixed bag Supremes combo have .

[khansperac]

Add to that instead of being just the earliest members the group of temptations had ballooned to seven members. Maybe they should have gathered as many Supremes as possible….

The reunited Temptations did not exactly become headline news. Pop radio didn’t embrace them.
STANDING ON THE TOP did not make the top 40.
If that didn’t generate more excitement , what chance would a mixed bag Supremes combo have .

That may be true, but the Temptation brand was still successful. In 1984 they hit big with “Treat her like a lady”.

[reese]

Add to that instead of being just the earliest members the group of temptations had ballooned to seven members. Maybe they should have gathered as many Supremes as possible….

The reunited Temptations did not exactly become headline news. Pop radio didn’t embrace them.
STANDING ON THE TOP did not make the top 40.
If that didn’t generate more excitement , what chance would a mixed bag Supremes combo have .

I thought the reunion tour was successful but because of difficulties with Ruffin, it didn't continue. In Otis' book, I believe he wrote that if things had gone well, Ruffin and Kendrick would have returned to the group permanently.

When the Tempts' reunion tour came to my city, they had to add a second show due to the demand. I think they have returned again a month or so later to play another show.

[BobbyC]

Thanks for that Jean clip. I have to say, she certainly had a regal air about her--like she was always under control onstage.

[BobbyC]

Feeling Good was also covered by Muse.

[Boogiedown]

Yes but not because of the return of the oldest members . They maybe even did better once they moved on without them
TREAT HER did not make the Top 40 either though

[reese]

Yes but not because of the return of the oldest members . They maybe even did better once they moved on without them
TREAT HER did not make the Top 40 either though

Their days of crossover success were long past. But with records like TREAT HER LIKE A LADY, LADY SOUL, SAIL AWAY, etc., the guys were still charting high on the R&B chart.

[Boogiedown]

I thought the reunion tour was successful but because of difficulties with Ruffin, it didn't continue. In Otis' book, I believe he wrote that if things had gone well, Ruffin and Kendrick would have returned to the group permanently.

When the Tempts' reunion tour came to my city, they had to add a second show due to the demand. I think they have returned again a month or so later to play another show.
I’m sure it was successful/made money,[big money?], increased attendance, but would the word triumphant be applied ??
A money maker from attracting in
part a curious audience, I imagine some with the hopes of seeing fur flying..
As a stunt, it succeeded, but even under the most ideal results, hard to imagine this bloated line up being maintained.

reese it sounds like you didn’t attend either , what happened ??

[khansperac]

With all due respect, I don’t worry about the Pop chart. I believe with their performance on M25 and the reunion tour, it was the spark they needed.

U.S. Billboard Hot 100 48
U.S. Billboard Hot Dance Club Play 13
U.S. Billboard Hot Black Singles 2
UK Singles 12

[RanRan79]

Not sure I've heard about a JML reunion for a Frank Wilson celebration? Perhaps you're thinking of the occasion when they reunited in 1984 at Jean's solo show? The footage is on YouTube...

https://youtu.be/Uo1MuOte3UU


https://youtu.be/Uo1MuOte3UU

Rod_Rick also confirmed in this thread [link below] that Mary attended an early FLOS show, back in the 80's, and Jean was seen at some of Mary's shows during that time as well.

https://soulfuldetroit.com/showthread.php?17263-Mary-Wilson-amp-Jean-Terrell-what

No, I just looked it up. It's from the March 19, 1981 issue of JET Magazine. And it wasn't Jean, it was Scherrie and Cindy with Mary. Perhaps that's what prompted the phantom Motowner to suggest a reunion of this grouping. Anyway, the article says they sang "Stoned Love". I for sure thought it was Jean and Mary with someone, but it's probably because I was mixing up the Jet article and the Jean show.

[RanRan79]

That may be true, but the Temptation brand was still successful. In 1984 they hit big with “Treat her like a lady”.

I play that one as much as I play the classic Tempts stuff. Ollie Woodson lays me out every time I hear him sing. Damn I miss him.

[carlo]

No, I just looked it up. It's from the March 19, 1981 issue of JET Magazine. And it wasn't Jean, it was Scherrie and Cindy with Mary. Perhaps that's what prompted the phantom Motowner to suggest a reunion of this grouping. Anyway, the article says they sang "Stoned Love". I for sure thought it was Jean and Mary with someone, but it's probably because I was mixing up the Jet article and the Jean show.

Thanks for clarifying, RanRan.

[RanRan79]

With all due respect, I don’t worry about the Pop chart. I believe with their performance on M25 and the reunion tour, it was the spark they needed.

U.S. Billboard Hot 100 48
U.S. Billboard Hot Dance Club Play 13
U.S. Billboard Hot Black Singles 2
UK Singles 12

I like pop music, so the pop chart is something I consider at times. Being Black makes the R&B chart more important because the information contained within is more of a mark of what myself and my loved ones, and even the broader Black community, were digging at one time or another. Unfortunately, what's popular to us isn't always considered popular until someone else deems it so, i.e. making it popular among themselves. And if they don't view it as popular, and are able to back it up with poor pop chart showings, it isn't popular, or successful, despite what the r&b chart might say. Some people buy into that, I, however, do not. That's why I can look at the fact that Stephanie Mills' "I Feel Good All Over" completely missed the pop charts, but let that sista enter a room- any room- full of Black folks and start that intro...watch what happens.:cool: Success.

[RanRan79]

Thanks for clarifying, RanRan.

Glad I could. Like Reese said in another thread about himself, I have stuff in my head and I try to remember where I got the information. I knew what I read was in an article, that it was a Frank Wilson celebration, and the group had "reunited" for a song. The question was in what publication, because if I don't produce receipts around here, someone is bound to use the "L" word. No, not Lynda or Little Lisa.:p

[marybrewster]

Wouldn't the Mary vs Motown lawsuit in 1981/1982 still been pretty fresh? I'm surprised that this was even a thought.

I think Mary suggested that in the early 80s, there was a resurgence of Motown music, as evidenced by movies and soundtracks like "The Big Chill". Which made the thought of reuniting the Supremes and interesting and perhaps lucrative proposition. Then of course you have the "Dreamgirls" angle, which at the time, Motown tried to use their advantage.

I do think though the Tempts reuniting at the Supremes reuniting is apples and oranges. The Tempts were still a group, still recording, and still at Motown. The Supremes however had disbanded, and were individually forging solo careers.

It makes me wonder though: would a Supremes and Temptations duet album have worked in 1982/1983?

[reese]

I’m sure it was successful/made money,[big money?], increased attendance, but would the word triumphant be applied ??
A money maker from attracting in
part a curious audience, I imagine some with the hopes of seeing fur flying..
As a stunt, it succeeded, but even under the most ideal results, hard to imagine this bloated line up being maintained.

reese it sounds like you didn’t attend either , what happened ??

I was a kid with a limited allowance and didn't go to concerts all that much, unless it was a fave. As I recall, I saw Diana around that time.

[RanRan79]

It makes me wonder though: would a Supremes and Temptations duet album have worked in 1982/1983?

Interesting scenario, but would it have even made sense for the Tempts at this point? The proposed grouping of Supremes would supposedly be fronted by Scherrie, whom the public largely wouldn't know. Otis and Melvin might have been inclined to give such an idea a chance because of their relationship with Mary, but I don't know if teaming them for an album would have made a lot of sense. But a one off song might have done something.

[RanRan79]

Wouldn't the Mary vs Motown lawsuit in 1981/1982 still been pretty fresh? I'm surprised that this was even a thought.



That might have been why there was a "Mary can be a Supreme again, but no lead singing" clause in the proposition. Lol

Grudges are often held in the business. They are also often quickly forgotten. Berry has demonstrated that throughout the years he's had as much affection for Mary as she did for him, which it seems was quite a lot. They had their ups and downs. So maybe word around the company was that Mary wasn't the enemy she was when they dropped her two years ago. And that Mary even contemplated a return to Motown after the way she had been treated...yeah, the grudges weren't quite as strong as we sometimes like to think they were.

What Mary should have done after Gordy made his disinterest in a reformation of Supremes known, is ask, "So Berry, what do you think about re-signing me to Motown as a solo artist now?" I would love to have heard his response. LOL

[reese]

I like pop music, so the pop chart is something I consider at times. Being Black makes the R&B chart more important because the information contained within is more of a mark of what myself and my loved ones, and even the broader Black community, were digging at one time or another. Unfortunately, what's popular to us isn't always considered popular until someone else deems it so, i.e. making it popular among themselves. And if they don't view it as popular, and are able to back it up with poor pop chart showings, it isn't popular, or successful, despite what the r&b chart might say. Some people buy into that, I, however, do not. That's why I can look at the fact that Stephanie Mills' "I Feel Good All Over" completely missed the pop charts, but let that sista enter a room- any room- full of Black folks and start that intro...watch what happens.:cool: Success.

Miss Mills can do no wrong! And she still sounds just as great as she ever did.

[RanRan79]

When it comes to Supremes reunions, I believe the best scenario was that if Motown 25 had run smoothly, and RCA and Motown could have come to an agreement, a Supremes album instead of Eaten Alive would have been successful. A reunion album of the most successful female group ever, containing one of the biggest stars ever, and accompanying tour, maybe a summer tour, I just don't see how that doesn't work...on paper.

Managing egos, past issues, etc, would have likely made the entire thing a disaster. Maybe Cindy could have been the voice of reason. Who knows? But the idea is good in theory. It's too bad reuniting Diana and Mary just seemed to go wrong every time. [[Not counting the last two times, but there was no music involved.)

[RanRan79]

Miss Mills can do no wrong! And she still sounds just as great as she ever did.

Oh, she is among the best ever. She can definitely do no wrong in my book.

[reese]

When it comes to Supremes reunions, I believe the best scenario was that if Motown 25 had run smoothly, and RCA and Motown could have come to an agreement, a Supremes album instead of Eaten Alive would have been successful. A reunion album of the most successful female group ever, containing one of the biggest stars ever, and accompanying tour, maybe a summer tour, I just don't see how that doesn't work...on paper.

Managing egos, past issues, etc, would have likely made the entire thing a disaster. Maybe Cindy could have been the voice of reason. Who knows? But the idea is good in theory. It's too bad reuniting Diana and Mary just seemed to go wrong every time. [[Not counting the last two times, but there was no music involved.)

If M25 had gone well, maybe a nice reunion segment during the Central Park concert would have worked to test the waters for a tour, album, etc.

[captainjames]

Nope Nope Nope and as I have said many times when Flo left us so did any chance of a reunion. Someone had to be the in between Supreme and that was Flo. Mary and Diana were not going to agree or compromise after all these years unless that third Supreme who was around from the beginning to knock some sense into them [[literally). This has nothing to do or against Cindy because we all love Cindy but it just ws nit going to happen. Mary had her reasons and Diana had hers and it was just not going to happen.

[Spreadinglove21]

Would an early 80s Supremes group of SMC be seen more as a relaunch of the group rather than a reunion?

[marybrewster]

Would an early 80s Supremes group of SMC be seen more as a relaunch of the group rather than a reunion?

This is what I said above, a bit wordy, lol, but I was trying to say exactly what you said:


I do think though the Tempts reuniting at the Supremes reuniting is apples and oranges. The Tempts were still a group, still recording, and still at Motown. The Supremes however had disbanded, and were individually forging solo careers.

[rod_rick]

Was it 1982 or 81 that Mary, Jean and another Supreme [[can't remember if it was Cindy or Lynda) reunited at a celebration for Frank Wilson and they sang to him?

It was a Mary, Cindy Scherrie performance for Frank Wilson

[jobeterob]

I think there are some realities that fans overlook.

Beyond Diana Ross, there were no successful solo careers to speak of, no sizeable hits - if there was any success it was by Mary as an author not a singer

The FLOs, Flo, Mary were much less successful than Syreeta, Charlene, Rockwell etc in terms of hits

If Mary had been able to put the emotion aside, there were a few times she could have been part of a reunion that made her a lot of money. The Temptations, even if it was brief for some of them, long for others, dropped a lot of the bitterness, unhappiness, i. e. the emotion

[bradsupremes]

If Mary had been able to put the emotion aside, there were a few times she could have been part of a reunion that made her a lot of money. The Temptations, even if it was brief for some of them, long for others, dropped a lot of the bitterness, unhappiness, i. e. the emotion

That's comparing apples to oranges. The Temptations reunion was put together differently and a big factor in that reunion was the two most popular lead singers of the group were returning. Eddie and David had more leverage. RTL was a different ball game. It was hard for Mary to put emotion aside when the tour was being planned before she was told, she would have no creative input or say into the show, and the tour promoters were incredibly disrespectful to not just her but the other Supremes as well. It comes down to principle, not emotion.

[smallworld]

RCA would never have released Diana for a whole album.

[RanRan79]

If M25 had gone well, maybe a nice reunion segment during the Central Park concert would have worked to test the waters for a tour, album, etc.

That would have been nice, but when you say "test the waters", is that in terms of judging the public's interest, or Diana and Mary's ability to work together again?

If the former, I'm not sure it was necessary. I think the public was always hoping for a reunion of Diana Ross to the Supremes and a project would have most likely been well received.

If the latter, you might be right.

[RanRan79]

Nope Nope Nope and as I have said many times when Flo left us so did any chance of a reunion. Someone had to be the in between Supreme and that was Flo. Mary and Diana were not going to agree or compromise after all these years unless that third Supreme who was around from the beginning to knock some sense into them [[literally). This has nothing to do or against Cindy because we all love Cindy but it just ws nit going to happen. Mary had her reasons and Diana had hers and it was just not going to happen.

Florence may have been able to bring some levelheadedness to a reunion had she lived, considering she had done what neither Diana nor Mary had to do: return to "normal" life after being a star. Of course it's unfortunate that we'll never know. I like to think that Cindy would have been a voice of reason, not only because of her own experience of returning to regular life, but because she was older by a few years. Unfortunately, there's no evidence that Cindy had the personality for buffering between personalities like Diana and Mary.

The reunion idea post what actually happened during Motown 25 never really has a chance without Diana and Mary coming together to squash their issues. Even if RTL had somehow made it off the ground with Mary involved, there's a big chance it would have imploded because the pressure that causes it is ever present since they refused to address it with one another. Each lady had legit gripes with the other and I don't think either one was in position to see things from the other's perspective without a conversation. They refused to do this and we fans lost out on something that I'll always believe we deserved: a Diana and Mary Supremes reunion project.

But I do think Diana's actions at Motown 25 really pushed Mary to write Dreamgirl, and Mary writing Dreamgirl pushed Diana to put Mary in the "nope" category. So in an alternate universe where Motown 25 goes off without a hitch, and in a world before Dreamgirl is written, a Supremes reunion would have rocked.

It's interesting that in the 80s, had Flo lived, it's being considered that she would be the buffer, since in the 60s Mary was the buffer between Flo and Diana.

[RanRan79]

Would an early 80s Supremes group of SMC be seen more as a relaunch of the group rather than a reunion?

But to what purpose? The public didn't care the first time around. I'd love to know who brought the idea to Suzanne and what in the world made them think it was a good idea.

[RanRan79]

That's comparing apples to oranges. The Temptations reunion was put together differently and a big factor in that reunion was the two most popular lead singers of the group were returning. Eddie and David had more leverage. RTL was a different ball game. It was hard for Mary to put emotion aside when the tour was being planned before she was told, she would have no creative input or say into the show, and the tour promoters were incredibly disrespectful to not just her but the other Supremes as well. It comes down to principle, not emotion.

Agreed. The entire thing was mishandled by all involved, IMO, but I can't fault Mary for her position prior to "the train has left the station".

[RanRan79]

RCA would never have released Diana for a whole album.

Would they have to? I don't know this part of the music business, how artists from different labels come together, the business side of it. Is there not a way that Motown and RCA both benefit from the idea?

[Ollie9]

Considering she was already a solo act, Mary Wilson and the Supremes would seem a suitable title if the group were to have reunited in 82. Being the only original Supreme featured, Mary surely deserved this recognition. I think Scherrie and Cindy would have been fine with the idea.

[khansperac]

It's interesting that in the 80s, had Flo lived, it's being considered that she would be the buffer, since in the 60s Mary was the buffer between Flo and Diana.

Was she the buffer or was she the instigator?

[reese]

That would have been nice, but when you say "test the waters", is that in terms of judging the public's interest, or Diana and Mary's ability to work together again?

If the former, I'm not sure it was necessary. I think the public was always hoping for a reunion of Diana Ross to the Supremes and a project would have most likely been well received.

If the latter, you might be right.

I meant test the waters in the sense of, could they get their groove back? Could they work together for a short medley without unforgotten slights from the 60s coming back?

[TheMotownManiac]

When it comes to Supremes reunions, I believe the best scenario was that if Motown 25 had run smoothly, and RCA and Motown could have come to an agreement, a Supremes album instead of Eaten Alive would have been successful. A reunion album of the most successful female group ever, containing one of the biggest stars ever, and accompanying tour, maybe a summer tour, I just don't see how that doesn't work...on paper.

Managing egos, past issues, etc, would have likely made the entire thing a disaster. Maybe Cindy could have been the voice of reason. Who knows? But the idea is good in theory. It's too bad reuniting Diana and Mary just seemed to go wrong every time. [[Not counting the last two times, but there was no music involved.)

Ross had no reason to do a Supremes tour instead of her follow up to swept away. Ross was making a fortune arena touring the world as a solo, there was nothing for her to gain. She was literally getting top prices with very very very minimal production.

RCA would never have let her release anything on Motown, they were still trying to recoup their 20 million. Epic would not allow Michael’s name to appear as an artist on eaten alive single or album.

I think this supremes reunion tour conversation is fun, however I don’t believe the public was clamoring for one.

Comparing it to the Temptations reunion tour is not comparing apples with apples. The Temptations were a very unique blend of a large range of fine voices. You had world-class falsetto, good bass, and two very strong R&B lead vocalists. This gave their performances an identity, and, most importantly, they sang their hits religiously similar to their single versions. Audiences loved that. The Supremes had one voice that attracted the public in a big way, but other than that, the general public had absolutely no idea who any other supreme was. Only diehard Supremes fans knew, and that was not enough to sell out all the seats in the Ramada Inn. Without ross in the mix, no one would care who was in the group and who was reuniting they didn’t care when they were there initially, why would they care now? They wouldn’t. Mary had a very difficult time selling tickets when she left the group. She was no star attraction. Using the moniker Mary Wilson in the Supremes would keep more people away because no one knew who she was. I’ve been till the name change in 1967, only the diehard fans knew the names of the group, including Diana.

I do think thatif they could get some material and some radio play, a grouping with Scherrie singing lead could’ve done some thing if they allowed Suzanne DePasse to run the ball game like she did the Jackson 5. That would’ve meant singing the hits as recorded, and I’m sure that they could’ve featured Mary a couple times in the show with ballads, but they were not going to allow her to be the lead singer or even a co-lead singer because, Right or wrong, there wasn’t anybody there that felt she had the chops to do it. Mary might’ve been able to build a name for herself within the group if it was under the direction of someone who knew what they were doing. Up until the book came out and she did her national tour of “I’ve been a victim of diana ross, Who slept her way to the top and kept the real talent of the group buried because of jealousy and ego but I manage to survive” then and only then did the general public know her name. And, rooting for the underdog, she was able to get the exposure she wanted and needed to prove that she could have a successful solo career. Without the book her name meant nothing.

I would have loved to be able to go see the Supremes over the years, but after a while of listening to any of the Supremes singers putting their stamp on a classic recording, it gets annoying very fast. The feeling at a Temptations concert is a party where you know all the words. The feeling of a Flos concert never gets halfway there.

[sup_fan]

to me, this whole story sort of smacks of the "Marvin Gaye will be producing Mary's first solo album" lots and lots and lots of "news" is dropped out into the public domain by publicists, PR men, artists, etc. much of it is simply to general immediate news activity - not any real claim of an upcoming project.

also other than any rumors in Jet or other magazines, isn't Mary just about the only real source of this. yes i know it's in Randy's book but is that just an interview with Mary? have others in the motown office or Cindy or Scherrie made any acknowledgement of this?

now lets say it was true. Suzanne and others were trying to repeat the Temps reunion. my guess is that they were already developing plans for Motown 25 the next year and one of the culminating moments of that show was to be the Supremes' reunion with DMC. while they knew that combo would never be able to tour and record, perhaps they figured the SMC would at least get some dates and sell some records. a flash in the pan and then done.

I do find Mary's logic about deciding not to do the tour because of what she had accomplished as a solo a bit odd. to be blunt, there was very little accomplished at this point. 1 mediocre album on motown, 4 very strong Gus tracks, and random touring around the world with her Supremes' show. i know she was still heavily shopping for a label but there was no interest. so wouldn't it have made financial sense to pursue this?

[smallworld]

Rather than a reunion on record, which would have been a nonstarter with Motown vs. RCA, a Supremes TV movie might have been fun. If Joan Rivers could play herself in a TV movie, why not the Supremes? It would have been a nice way to "take back" their story after Dreamgirls made its mark on Broadway and beyond, and it might have mended the relationship between Mary and Diana. The only question is: Who would play Florence?

[reese]

Rather than a reunion on record, which would have been a nonstarter with Motown vs. RCA, a Supremes TV movie might have been fun. If Joan Rivers could play herself in a TV movie, why not the Supremes? It would have been a nice way to "take back" their story after Dreamgirls made its mark on Broadway and beyond, and it might have mended the relationship between Mary and Diana. The only question is: Who would play Florence?

According to J. Randy's CALL HER MISS ROSS, at some point in the 80s, Suzanne dePasse was trying to produce a Supremes biography for television. At the time Cindy was not doing well financially. When Diana found out, she procrastinated her approval of the project long enough for Cindy to get $30,000 for her part in the story, which she didn't have to return.

I always thought an AMERICAN MASTERS type of documentary on the group would be interesting. But I fear that varying viewpoints might make it a headache for whoever decided to produce it.

[thanxal]

t lots and lots and lots of "news" is dropped out into the public domain by publicists, PR men, artists, etc. much of it is simply to general immediate news activity - not any real claim of an upcoming project.

You are absolutely spot-on and I often wonder how much received "wisdom" on any given topic is exactly such fluff and guster - unattributable to any reputable source but repeated enough that it becomes an accepted fact. I think there is far more of it than most people realize or are willing to admit.

[bradsupremes]

I always thought an AMERICAN MASTERS type of documentary on the group would be interesting. But I fear that varying viewpoints might make it a headache for whoever decided to produce it.

I have reached out to PBS and the team behind American Masters several times about this but never got a response. To me, the fact there is no in-depth, thorough documentary about them is rather criminal. And I don't want to hear the "there's no demand for it" argument. People aren't clamoring for documentaries on the American buffalo, but you got one coming out from Ken Burns in the next few years that no doubt will be incredible. Done correctly, a Supremes documentary could win awards and be a huge success. I've always felt a Ken Burns style documentary on them could be profound. There's a way to tell their story without Diana coming out looking like a villain and Mary and Florence the victim. Everyone is going to come out with a little dirt on them. That's life and their story but done truthfully it's not going to damage anyone. Their impact, influence, and success they achieved needs to be emphasized greatly because frankly they don't get enough credit for what they did. And you have to tell the whole story. The 70s years can't be glossed over. Use the ladies as sources but none of them nor their families should be involved especially if we want their story done correctly. The thing is you need to right people behind it and the right people leading it. It can't be people who are unwilling to allow folks like Andy, George, etc. have a creative say. Excluding folks who know their story would just be asinine.

Two things stand in the way though: Berry Gordy and Diana Ross. Gordy has the grand rights over usage of the music used in TV commercials, movies, documentaries, etc. If there is going to be a Supremes documentary, you have to tell the truth and Gordy is not going to come out in the best light. He's not going to ever sign off the usage of music in something that's going to make him look bad. I imagine once Gordy passes away there won't be an obstacle on getting rights to the music. Ross is the other obstacle although probably not so much to the extent Gordy has in preventing the usage of music. She may try to do stop a documentary going forward but I imagine at 78 years old she's not going to put up a fight like she may have done when she was 50.

[Boogiedown]

I like pop music, so the pop chart is something I consider at times. Being Black makes the R&B chart more important because the information contained within is more of a mark of what myself and my loved ones, and even the broader Black community, were digging at one time or another. Unfortunately, what's popular to us isn't always considered popular until someone else deems it so, i.e. making it popular among themselves. And if they don't view it as popular, and are able to back it up with poor pop chart showings, it isn't popular, or successful, despite what the r&b chart might say. Some people buy into that, I, however, do not. That's why I can look at the fact that Stephanie Mills' "I Feel Good All Over" completely missed the pop charts, but let that sista enter a room- any room- full of Black folks and start that intro...watch what happens.:cool: Success.
Stephanie Mills is fantastic. Disco had always been very supportive of her. I have no idea what the need is for this us verses them tone being presented here. The pop chart has always been wonderfully inclusive.
Success can be measured in
many ways and in many degrees. Yes TREAT HER did well on the R&B chart which is one way of measuring success. If success is measured by sales obviously being a hit on the Pop chart broadens your exposure and your audience [=sales from product and concert attendance ]

By Motowns own goals and standards , The temptations not breaking the Top 40 as was their norm would be a disappointment and seen as less successful

I’m happy to say I have never once listened to
music based on skin color from any angle for any reason, Never not once …. and the bravado expressed here about doing so ….Well let it marinade in
of itself

[kenneth]

I have reached out to PBS and the team behind American Masters several times about this but never got a response. To me, the fact there is no in-depth, thorough documentary about them is rather criminal. And I don't want to hear the "there's no demand for it" argument. People aren't clamoring for documentaries on the American buffalo, but you got one coming out from Ken Burns in the next few years that no doubt will be incredible. Done correctly, a Supremes documentary could win awards and be a huge success.


The idea of Ken Burns helming a doc on either the Supremes or better yet, on Motown itself, is extremely intriguing to think about. He can make any subject fascinating and the docs he's done on music have been especially compelling. In addition to "Jazz," didn't he also do the series on Country and Western music? It was excellent. I think I watched it all the way through twice.

[bradsupremes]

The idea of Ken Burns helming a doc on either the Supremes or better yet, on Motown itself, is extremely intriguing to think about. He can make any subject fascinating and the docs he's done on music have been especially compelling. In addition to "Jazz," didn't he also do the series on Country and Western music? It was excellent. I think I watched it all the way through twice.

His documentaries are the gold standard. The vast majority of his documentaries usually center on American history subjects [[the Civil War, the Brooklyn Bridge, the Vietnam War, Thomas Jefferson, the Roosevelts, just to name a few). Any topics dealing with popular culture are usually ones who have played an integral part in American history - thus documentaries on people like Muhammad Ali, Ernest Hemingway, and music like jazz and country. Jazz was a 10-part, 19 hour series. Country Music was a 8-part, 16 hours. He could easily do a 2-part, 4 hour documentary on the Supremes. The same with Motown. A real in-depth look at the record empire - that would most definitely be a 4-6 part series but you have the obstacle of Berry Gordy who won't sign off on the music rights especially if we're talking about the truth and what really happened. Burns isn't one to sugarcoat and Gordy will not look good in parts of it.

Burns has years of documentaries in the works and I'm sure he's booked up to 2028 with yearly documentaries on topics like the American Revolution and LBJ & the Great Society. If he ever did documentary on the ladies or Motown we may not see it until the 2030s.

[telekin]

I know a lot of fans have been clamouring for a major biopic, but I've always thought a documentary would be the best approach to really nail down the full complexity of The Supremes' story. Personally, I've always found biopics to be overrated - messy, incomplete and often one-sided. Inevitably there's always some dramatic license taken depicting a true story, and I can only imagine how many feathers would end up getting ruffled in that process.


to me, this whole story sort of smacks of the "Marvin Gaye will be producing Mary's first solo album" lots and lots and lots of "news" is dropped out into the public domain by publicists, PR men, artists, etc. much of it is simply to general immediate news activity - not any real claim of an upcoming project.

[...]

I do find Mary's logic about deciding not to do the tour because of what she had accomplished as a solo a bit odd. to be blunt, there was very little accomplished at this point. 1 mediocre album on motown, 4 very strong Gus tracks, and random touring around the world with her Supremes' show. i know she was still heavily shopping for a label but there was no interest. so wouldn't it have made financial sense to pursue this?

I'm not sure why I would disbelieve her either? If it was just a PR stunt [[there are mentions in Jet, and probably others at the time) I'm not sure why Mary would later include it in her book if it didn't actually happen, or wasn't even proposed to her.

I remember that line about not wanting to leave what she'd accomplished as a solo artist, but I don't think the accomplishment needs to be that prestigious. I mean, the accomplishment was making a living for herself and her family, getting her show back on the road after her divorce [[which didn't leave her with much, from what I understand) and running her own business without having to answer to Motown, her husband or anyone else. I mean, she'd just left one abusive relationship, I doubt she'd be willing to just walk into another.

Perhaps in retrospect it wouldn't have hurt to have another record out there. At that point in time, I doubt she'd have been quick to just have yet another kick at the can at Motown - it would be her third by that time - without some extra assurance of their commitment. Certainly not after the bitter experience both as a solo and from the latter-day Supremes.

[reese]

to me, this whole story sort of smacks of the "Marvin Gaye will be producing Mary's first solo album" lots and lots and lots of "news" is dropped out into the public domain by publicists, PR men, artists, etc. much of it is simply to general immediate news activity - not any real claim of an upcoming project.

also other than any rumors in Jet or other magazines, isn't Mary just about the only real source of this. yes i know it's in Randy's book but is that just an interview with Mary? have others in the motown office or Cindy or Scherrie made any acknowledgement of this?

This potential reunion info might have been a plant by Motown or Mary to see what public interest there could be. Maybe not.

I don't remember J. Randy ever writing about it. Besides Mary's SUPREME FAITH, the only place I recall reading about it was in JET magazine. I think the JET item also mentioned that Cindy was looking for a gospel contract through her company Joy Enterprises.

[sup_fan]

there is MAYBE a glimmer of possibility that with the massive success of the broadway show Dreamgirls in late 81, some people at Motown might have thought "hey let's jump on this bandwagon and make some money" but given motown's total disinterest in the Supremes post Diana and how everything that was being reissued by the 60s grouping was always being labeled DRATS [[often with DIANA ROSS in larger font even) i can't imagine that at any Sr level of the company, anyone was considering this.

the Temps reunion album was released in 82. production of the movie The Big Chill began in 82 and they utilized a lot of Motown music so they would have been working with the company to gain licenses. Plans were in the works for Motown 25. So i could see in some lower-level company meeting people were brainstorming "what else can we do?" and someone said "hey let's get the Sups back together too"

prior to Mary's lawsuits, it was clear Motown has 0 interest in her other than a backing singer. Berry was always big on loyalty and her lawsuits had to be viewed as nothing short of heretical. and any reformation of the group would have to include mary and she would have to be in a larger role than what she was in the 60s. so that means that even if she wasn't the official lead, she'd be doing much to manage the group and all. so they'd be working closely with her and by the 80s none of them wanted that

[BayouMotownMan]

The idea was Suzanne dePasse's who approached Mary with the notion of a reunion. Mary wanted the reunion to include Scherrie and Cindy. As Mary was prone to doing she gave interviews to the press basically making it sound like it was a serious issue.

When Mary finally approached Berry he had just lost Ross to RCA Records and it was a sore spot to talk Supremes. Also, the Temptations Reunion, while successful was not without serious headaches with in-group squabbles and singers not showing up. All of this ate into the profits. It was obvious that Gordy was not in favor of this.

As far as album talks with Scherrie singing leads, I had never heard this. I don't know if it went that far. Also in 1982, dePasse was working with Gwen Gordy to try and desperately re-ignite the recording careers of High Inergy, who had been floundering for years. A tour with Diana Ross was planned but never executed. All in all both ideas went down the toilet.

[Ollie9]

The idea was Suzanne dePasse's who approached Mary with the notion of a reunion. Mary wanted the reunion to include Scherrie and Cindy. As Mary was prone to doing she gave interviews to the press basically making it sound like it was a serious issue.

When Mary finally approached Berry he had just lost Ross to RCA Records and it was a sore spot to talk Supremes. Also, the Temptations Reunion, while successful was not without serious headaches with in-group squabbles and singers not showing up. All of this ate into the profits. It was obvious that Gordy was not in favor of this.

As far as album talks with Scherrie singing leads, I had never heard this. I don't know if it went that far. Also in 1982, dePasse was working with Gwen Gordy to try and desperately re-ignite the recording careers of High Inergy, who had been floundering for years. A tour with Diana Ross was planned but never executed. All in all both ideas went down the toilet.

A Diana Ross tour with the Supremes as opposed to High Energy as support might have proved rather fun. For fans at least .

[reese]

Interesting info re High Inergy as an opening act for Diana in the early 80s.

Before Diana's 1982 World Tour, I recall reading that the Jones Girls were going to be the opening act and would be doing backup vocals as well. This was a surprise as they had had a few hits by then. It didn't happen but now I wonder if the story I read actually meant High Inergy?

[BayouMotownMan]

A Diana Ross tour with the Supremes as opposed to High Energy as support might have proved rather fun. For fans at least .

There was never a possibility of Ross doing a Supremes reunion with Mary and Cindy in 1982, she was hot at RCA and in strained relations with Gordy

[BayouMotownMan]

Interesting info re High Inergy as an opening act for Diana in the early 80s.

Before Diana's 1982 World Tour, I recall reading that the Jones Girls were going to be the opening act and would be doing backup vocals as well. This was a surprise as they had had a few hits by then. It didn't happen but now I wonder if the story I read actually meant High Inergy?

Diana Ross attended a dinner at Gwen Gordy's home to meet with and discuss High Inergy touring Europe with her and get them some exposure. During the dinner she was critical of the girls, especially lead singer Barbara. The night before they were to embark on the tour the girls spent the night at Gwen's, kissed their families goodbye and woke up the next morning to the news that Ross left without them. The reason? She claimed she could not get them insured. What was more likely is she didn't want to help another group of competitors.

[reese]

Diana Ross attended a dinner at Gwen Gordy's home to meet with and discuss High Inergy touring Europe with her and get them some exposure. During the dinner she was critical of the girls, especially lead singer Barbara. The night before they were to embark on the tour the girls spent the night at Gwen's, kissed their families goodbye and woke up the next morning to the news that Ross left without them. The reason? She claimed she could not get them insured. What was more likely is she didn't want to help another group of competitors.

That must have been quite a disappointment for them.

As I think of it, I don't remember Diana having an opening act at any of the 80s concerts of hers that I attended. In fact, some ads would say something like "No opening act. Miss Ross' concert will start promptly at 7:30pm."

[Ollie9]

There was never a possibility of Ross doing a Supremes reunion with Mary and Cindy in 1982, she was hot at RCA and in strained relations with Gordy

Had it transpired, i was thinking more the Supremes as support then a reunion tour. It would have generated tons of publicity, with the Supremes to benefit more.
As Diana had to be practically begged to appear on Motown 25, i agree the likelihood wouldn’t have been great.

[floyjoy678]

Nope Nope Nope and as I have said many times when Flo left us so did any chance of a reunion. Someone had to be the in between Supreme and that was Flo. Mary and Diana were not going to agree or compromise after all these years unless that third Supreme who was around from the beginning to knock some sense into them [[literally). This has nothing to do or against Cindy because we all love Cindy but it just ws nit going to happen. Mary had her reasons and Diana had hers and it was just not going to happen.

I completely agree. I always thought that if Flo had lived a longer life, we would have had a successful Supremes reunion. She wasn't going to put up with Diana and Mary being 50 years old still acting like little girls.

[Ollie9]

Diana Ross attended a dinner at Gwen Gordy's home to meet with and discuss High Inergy touring Europe with her and get them some exposure. During the dinner she was critical of the girls, especially lead singer Barbara. The night before they were to embark on the tour the girls spent the night at Gwen's, kissed their families goodbye and woke up the next morning to the news that Ross left without them. The reason? She claimed she could not get them insured. What was more likely is she didn't want to help another group of competitors.

The group must have been totally devastated. What a total waste of their time it would have been, rehearsing and preparing themselves for such a major event. Not nice.

[BayouMotownMan]

The group must have been totally devastated. What a total waste of their time it would have been, rehearsing and preparing themselves for such a major event. Not nice.

Indeed they were devastated. After rehearsals and new costumes, they had to eat it

[khansperac]

I’m sorry but that story doesn’t make sense at all.

[Ollie9]

Indeed they were devastated. After rehearsals and new costumes, they had to eat it

One can only assume the group were financially compensated for such a last minute cancellation of their services. They must have had a contract, so could otherwise sue for damages. So much for reach out and touch. :eek:

[marybrewster]

Has there ever been a SUCCESSFUL reunion of a 50s/60s/70s girl group? Perhaps LaBelle? But look at groups like The Shirelles; Shirley, Beverly, and Doris all had their own groups. Ronnie hit the road with new Ronettes in the 70s and 80s, and Martha has had :hundreds: of Vandellas.

[reese]

Has there ever been a SUCCESSFUL reunion of a 50s/60s/70s girl group? Perhaps LaBelle? But look at groups like The Shirelles; Shirley, Beverly, and Doris all had their own groups. Ronnie hit the road with new Ronettes in the 70s and 80s, and Martha has had :hundreds: of Vandellas.

The Velvelettes.

[floyjoy678]

Has there ever been a SUCCESSFUL reunion of a 50s/60s/70s girl group? Perhaps LaBelle? But look at groups like The Shirelles; Shirley, Beverly, and Doris all had their own groups. Ronnie hit the road with new Ronettes in the 70s and 80s, and Martha has had :hundreds: of Vandellas.

Martha has reunited with Annette and Rosalind and performed with them for years at one point.

The Ronettes did reunite in a way for the Rock And Roll Hall Of Fame induction. Nedra lost interest in performing even before the group broke up back in the day and Estelle had mental issues.

[BayouMotownMan]

I have reached out to PBS and the team behind American Masters several times about this but never got a response. To me, the fact there is no in-depth, thorough documentary about them is rather criminal. And I don't want to hear the "there's no demand for it" argument. People aren't clamoring for documentaries on the American buffalo, but you got one coming out from Ken Burns in the next few years that no doubt will be incredible. Done correctly, a Supremes documentary could win awards and be a huge success. I've always felt a Ken Burns style documentary on them could be profound. There's a way to tell their story without Diana coming out looking like a villain and Mary and Florence the victim. Everyone is going to come out with a little dirt on them. That's life and their story but done truthfully it's not going to damage anyone. Their impact, influence, and success they achieved needs to be emphasized greatly because frankly they don't get enough credit for what they did. And you have to tell the whole story. The 70s years can't be glossed over. Use the ladies as sources but none of them nor their families should be involved especially if we want their story done correctly. The thing is you need to right people behind it and the right people leading it. It can't be people who are unwilling to allow folks like Andy, George, etc. have a creative say. Excluding folks who know their story would just be asinine.

Two things stand in the way though: Berry Gordy and Diana Ross. Gordy has the grand rights over usage of the music used in TV commercials, movies, documentaries, etc. If there is going to be a Supremes documentary, you have to tell the truth and Gordy is not going to come out in the best light. He's not going to ever sign off the usage of music in something that's going to make him look bad. I imagine once Gordy passes away there won't be an obstacle on getting rights to the music. Ross is the other obstacle although probably not so much to the extent Gordy has in preventing the usage of music. She may try to do stop a documentary going forward but I imagine at 78 years old she's not going to put up a fight like she may have done when she was 50.

The problem with doing these docs, and I know because I faced it with E TV, is Universal not letting the producers use the music. Without the music you basically have no story. When I did E TRUE HOLLYWOOD DIANA ROSS, the network was allowed to use I think three or four clips from performance tapes. When I did the Mysteries and Scandals on Flo the network was denied any usage of the music. When Berry Gordy sold Motown he still has a stake in Jobete...and where it come to himself, Ross and Marvin Gaye he is usually unlyielding.

[BobbyC]

Hi Bayou--what was DR's problem with Barbara Mitchell? She seemed nice and had a terrific voice.

[marybrewster]

Hi Bayou--what was DR's problem with Barbara Mitchell? She seemed nice and had a terrific voice.

You answered your own question, lol.

[lakeside]

You answered your own question, lol.

She seemed nice and had a terrific voice.
LOL, indeed.

[khansperac]

At this time Diana was at the top. The highest paid and most successful singer in the business. Why would she be jealous of a group- especially after all she did just a few years earlier for the Jones Girls?

There was absolutely no love lost between her and Motown- the label she had left. They tried to sabotage new career at RCA by releasing an album. Her and Berry weren’t talking. Why would she try to help an act from her old label under those circumstances?

The only time during those years I ever heard of her with an opening act was in Vegas or Atlantic City, and in those cases they were comics. So how in the world would she sign a contract for concert appearances with an opening act, and then not fulfill that contract? Can anyone provide a link where she was sued by the contractor or venues?

[BobbyC]

Ouch! You guys are rough!

[captainjames]

At this time Diana was at the top. The highest paid and most successful singer in the business. Why would she be jealous of a group- especially after all she did just a few years earlier for the Jones Girls?

There was absolutely no love lost between her and Motown- the label she had left. They tried to sabotage new career at RCA by releasing an album. Her and Berry weren’t talking. Why would she try to help an act from her old label under those circumstances?

The only time during those years I ever heard of her with an opening act was in Vegas or Atlantic City, and in those cases they were comics. So how in the world would she sign a contract for concert appearances with an opening act, and then not fulfill that contract? Can anyone provide a link where she was sued by the contractor or venues?

I agree - it sounds like they G. Gordy or Motown had already assumed Diana [[If this actually happen) was already in agreement if they were to jet off the next day. I would think there would have been more planning besides Diana meeting the day before to agree to a opening act. Rhonda Ross is the firt time I have seen Diana include anyone as an opening act for her.

[BayouMotownMan]

Hi Bayou--what was DR's problem with Barbara Mitchell? She seemed nice and had a terrific voice.

You just answered your own question Bob

[BayouMotownMan]

At this time Diana was at the top. The highest paid and most successful singer in the business. Why would she be jealous of a group- especially after all she did just a few years earlier for the Jones Girls?

There was absolutely no love lost between her and Motown- the label she had left. They tried to sabotage new career at RCA by releasing an album. Her and Berry weren’t talking. Why would she try to help an act from her old label under those circumstances?

The only time during those years I ever heard of her with an opening act was in Vegas or Atlantic City, and in those cases they were comics. So how in the world would she sign a contract for concert appearances with an opening act, and then not fulfill that contract? Can anyone provide a link where she was sued by the contractor or venues?

The contracts would have been with Anaid Productions at the time and you can be sure that Diana had grown wise enough to have cancellation rights to any such agreements. She also had kill rights to all photos released to the media.

[Spreadinglove21]

I agree - it sounds like they G. Gordy or Motown had already assumed Diana [[If this actually happen) was already in agreement if they were to jet off the next day. I would think there would have been more planning besides Diana meeting the day before to agree to a opening act. Rhonda Ross is the firt time I have seen Diana include anyone as an opening act for her.

When I saw her at Hollywood Bowl a few years back [[early to mid 2010s), Rhonda, Evan and an a capella group [[maybe Penatonix [[sp.?)) that had done well on one of those TV talent shows opened for her.

As for High Inergy and Barbara Mitchell opening for one of her early 80s tours, sounds like Diana did the equivalent of what Helen Lawson did to Neely O'Hara at the start of the movie Valley of the Dolls, though in this instance Barbara wasn't as resilient as Neely and didn't soar to stardom and then later take revenge by flushing Diana's wig down the toilet during a woman's room confrontation.

[Ollie9]

When I saw her at Hollywood Bowl a few years back [[early to mid 2010s), Rhonda, Evan and an a capella group [[maybe Penatonix [[sp.?)) that had done well on one of those TV talent shows opened for her.

As for High Inergy and Barbara Mitchell opening for one of her early 80s tours, sounds like Diana did the equivalent of what Helen Lawson did to Neely O'Hara at the start of the movie Valley of the Dolls, though in this instance Barbara wasn't as resilient as Neely and didn't soar to stardom and then later take revenge by flushing Diana's wig down the toilet during a woman's room confrontation.

“The only hit that comes out of a Helen Lawson Show is Helen Lawson”. The situation does sound a little like life imitating art.

[marybrewster]

Diana was at the top of her game, of course.

But by 1978/1979, Diana was also in her mid-30's. Gasp!

Barbara was talented, pretty, and YOUNG.

Newsflash, Diana is human just like the rest of us.

The "Helen Lawson" reference is absolutely spot on.

[khansperac]

“ Ross left without them. The reason? She claimed she could not get them insured. What was more likely is she didn't want to help another group of competitors”

You guys are really gonna roll with this? This person at the end of his “story” then proceeds to give his opinion as if it were fact [[see the bolded). Then you pick up the ball and run with this . To often lies and rumors are presented as fact, then get repeated so much that people believe they are facts.

[Ollie9]

“ Ross left without them. The reason? She claimed she could not get them insured. What was more likely is she didn't want to help another group of competitors”

You guys are really gonna roll with this? This person at the end of his “story” then proceeds to give his opinion as if it were fact [[see the bolded). Then you pick up the ball and run with this . To often lies and rumors are presented as fact, then get repeated so much that people believe they are facts.

I have a hunch had this been an incident demonstrating Diana’s generosity of spirit it would be taken as the holy gospel and regurgitated for years to come.
Allowing for Diana’s egotistical nature during the 80’s, it sounds perfectly believable to me. As we know, there were certainly moments of generosity, so can’t really see this effecting anyone’s fandom. I’m sure even Helen Lawson had her kind days.

[marybrewster]

“ Ross left without them. The reason? She claimed she could not get them insured. What was more likely is she didn't want to help another group of competitors”

You guys are really gonna roll with this? This person at the end of his “story” then proceeds to give his opinion as if it were fact [[see the bolded). Then you pick up the ball and run with this . To often lies and rumors are presented as fact, then get repeated so much that people believe they are facts.

Just as Diana "claims" she couldn't get them insured?

[jobeterob]

Every time these threads appear, I think of what could have been - some kind of decent reunion and that the benefit would have been greatest for Mary. But she never saw it that way and accepted she was dealing with a superstar and that she would have to play a secondary role; so she got nothing and we got nothing.

I often hear that there were hit possibilities in songs like Warm Summer Nights, You Danced My Heart Around the Stars and the Gus Dudgeon tracks might have been hits - but I don’t hear it; the songs aren’t that good and most hookless; Green River is awful.

At least Destiny’s Child and Labelle managed something.

[RanRan79]

When it comes to the Supremes, Mary should never accept a secondary role. She is Queen Supreme. For some, Diana's superstar status somehow makes her more worthy of just about anything over Mary. Mary never saw it that way, and I don't either. Diana is as much to blame for a non reunion as Mary is. She would have benefitted from a reunion, but even without it she was still living better than most people and appeared to be as happy as she ever was.

I'll tell you one thing about the GD tracks: they were better than half of the stuff Diana recorded at RCA. Except "Green River", we agree on that. Good grief that song is awful.

[Ollie9]

Mary’s “Green River” And Diana’s “Fool For Your Love”. What on earth were they thinking?. As in the the lyrics of a song from MS&S, you just want to scream NO.

[Spreadinglove21]

Green River is not a bad song, at least when John Fogerty/Credence Clearwater Revival play it, but Mary's version can be best summed up as "Trying way too hard". CCR is much more laid back.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5V9nK7-OkM

[Ollie9]

Green River is not a bad song, at least when John Fogerty/Credence Clearwater Revival play it, but Mary's version can be best summed up as "Trying way too hard". CCR is much more laid back.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5V9nK7-OkM

This is a much better version, being less is often more. Mary did have a tendency to try just s little to hard at times, both as a 70’s Supreme and during those early solo years.

[RanRan79]

Mary’s “Green River” And Diana’s “Fool For Your Love”. What on earth were they thinking?. As in the the lyrics of a song from MS&S, you just want to scream NO.

I know I'm probably in the minority but I love "Fool". I think Diana did a great job. Supposedly there's a couple more rock cuts that didn't make the album. I hope they see the light of day at some point.

That being said, Diana recording "Fool" just continued to prove that with creative control she had no idea what her audience wanted from her. "Fool For Your Love" was not it.

[RanRan79]

Green River is not a bad song, at least when John Fogerty/Credence Clearwater Revival play it, but Mary's version can be best summed up as "Trying way too hard". CCR is much more laid back.



Well sure, CCR's version is going to be great, as they usually are. By bad song we mean Mary's version. It sucks. The other three tracks are suited to Mary perfectly. I don't know what the thought was behind making "Green River" the fourth track.

While I love Diana's foray into rock- and admittedly, the track to "Fool" probably has more to do with my love than anything else- there's no way the genre would have ever fit her. Mary has a very good version of "Bad Case Of Loving You" on a television show, I think, and she actually does a good job with it. So Mary could "rock", but I think the question is should Mary have been going there? I don't think so. She was much better than how she comes across on "River". That's probably the one song Mary has ever sung that I would never play for someone who wants to know what is there to like about Mary's voice. Diana has a couple songs I wouldn't play, but I think "Why Do Fools Fall In Love" might top that list. That whole damn thing is horrible.

[Ollie9]

I know I'm probably in the minority but I love "Fool". I think Diana did a great job. Supposedly there's a couple more rock cuts that didn't make the album. I hope they see the light of day at some point.

That being said, Diana recording "Fool" just continued to prove that with creative control she had no idea what her audience wanted from her. "Fool For Your Love" was not it.

As has been debated before, Diana appears to have had no real understanding of what her audience wanted, though judging by “Fools”, couldn’t have cared less. She was happy doing what she wanted, hence how we ended up with such a song.
Allowing for the fact you love it, as least you can see this was not the direction she should have been heading in. It was most probably inspired by Gene Simmons, being briefly considered for single release. It’s anybody's guess which direction she might have gone in had it topped the charts. :eek:

[RanRan79]

As has been debated before, Diana appears to have had no real understanding of what her audience wanted, though judging by “Fools”, couldn’t have cared less. She was happy doing what she wanted, hence how we ended up with such a song.
Allowing for the fact you love it, as least you can see this was not the direction she should have been heading in. It was most probably inspired by Gene Simmons, being briefly considered for single release. It’s anybody's guess which direction she might have gone in had it topped the charts. :eek:

She probably would have released an opera single next.:p

[Ollie9]

She probably would have released an opera single next.:p

Either that or a tribute to Led Zeppelin lol. Without having heard the other rock tracks she may have recorded, it’s hard to fully assess how her career as a heavy metal artist might have progressed. :)

[marybrewster]

She probably would have released an opera single next.:p

Maybe she and Mary could have duetted on "Ave Maria"? ;)

[RanRan79]

Either that or a tribute to Led Zeppelin lol. Without having heard the other rock tracks she may have recorded, it’s hard to fully assess how her career as a heavy metal artist might have progressed. :)

Diana Ross Sings Led. You've never heard "Communication Breakdown" quite like this.:D

[RanRan79]

Maybe she and Mary could have duetted on "Ave Maria"? ;)

As long as Mary got to do her Flo Ballard impression, it would have been a winner!

[sup_fan]

Maybe she and Mary could have duetted on "Ave Maria"? ;)

hey don't laugh. both Donna Summer and Aretha Franklin put out ghastly opera songs

[sup_fan]

When it comes to the Supremes, Mary should never accept a secondary role. She is Queen Supreme. For some, Diana's superstar status somehow makes her more worthy of just about anything over Mary. Mary never saw it that way, and I don't either. Diana is as much to blame for a non reunion as Mary is. She would have benefitted from a reunion, but even without it she was still living better than most people and appeared to be as happy as she ever was.

I'll tell you one thing about the GD tracks: they were better than half of the stuff Diana recorded at RCA. Except "Green River", we agree on that. Good grief that song is awful.

yes and no

the fact remains that this is a business. no one [[other than die hard fans) gives two shits about what is "fair" or what is "right." whether it was 1983 or 2000, mary wilson had really 0 ground to stand on when it came to negotiating business around a reunion tour. she had no label, no solo successes. so no - no promoter was going to care about her wishes or whether she was "queen". that's why no real reunion of merit has ever really been a focus unless it included Diana. people want to hear Diana's voice sing the 60s hits. that's what will draw in the majority of the ticket purchases

but that's just for the promoters POV. they don't care much about the details, so long as the revenue is coming in. and that the show is profitable

when it comes down to the plans for the stage act - what costumes, the choreography, song order, etc, that's where mary should have had significant input. here i do totally agree that she and Diana should have been able to approach this from a 50/50 standpoint.

[Roberta75]

As long as Mary got to do her Flo Ballard impression, it would have been a winner!

LOL. As much as i used to cringe when Mary would do her Proincess Margaret "Is that a wig you are wearing Mary?" impression with the worst English accent since Tony Curtis. Id sure love to hear her do it again.

[Roberta75]

hey don't laugh. both Donna Summer and Aretha Franklin put out ghastly opera songs

But Aretha NAILED Nessun Dorma at the Grammy Awards and only had 20 mintes to rehearse it.

[RanRan79]

yes and no

the fact remains that this is a business. no one [[other than die hard fans) gives two shits about what is "fair" or what is "right." whether it was 1983 or 2000, mary wilson had really 0 ground to stand on when it came to negotiating business around a reunion tour. she had no label, no solo successes. so no - no promoter was going to care about her wishes or whether she was "queen". that's why no real reunion of merit has ever really been a focus unless it included Diana. people want to hear Diana's voice sing the 60s hits. that's what will draw in the majority of the ticket purchases

but that's just for the promoters POV. they don't care much about the details, so long as the revenue is coming in. and that the show is profitable

when it comes down to the plans for the stage act - what costumes, the choreography, song order, etc, that's where mary should have had significant input. here i do totally agree that she and Diana should have been able to approach this from a 50/50 standpoint.

It wasn't Mary's job to care what the promoters thought. Everybody in the music biz is out for themselves and focus on their best interests. So yeah, Mary drew a hard line for what she thought was fair. I've always maintained that if [[and I don't know if this was Mary's thought or not) Mary expected to make what Diana was making, it was delusional. Diana was the bigger star and was also an investor in the tour. Mary was being asked to participate, not put up any money. But it's insulting- whether from the promoters, Diana, or both- to give Mary a dollar amount for a Supremes show and say "just show up". At that point she's an after thought, playing a secondary role. Mary had the right to stand up for herself, because let's face it, Diana will stand up for herself, and the promoters will stand up for themselves and protect their interests. I would never begrudge Mary the right to protect her own.

So Mary signs the contract and accepts the fee. Mary gets to rehearsal and find out that she and Cindy are standing waaaaaaaaayyyyyyyy in the back, stage left, while Diana is front and center. Mary and Cindy are also wearing mockups of Hudson Department store specials that the early Supremes would wear, while Diana is in some major designer frock.:cool:

The money might be good, but would Mary want to take a shower after picking the money up from the nightstand? We all have to have standards or someone will always be looking for a way to get over on us.

[RanRan79]

But Aretha NAILED Nessun Dorma at the Grammy Awards and only had 20 mintes to rehearse it.

That she did. The 20 minutes is always what gets me. She was always finding a way to remind folks of why she was the queen in the first place.

[sup_fan]

i think we have different definitions of Nailed It. i certainly appreciate her stepping in at a moment's notice but she had performed it a few nights earlier at another event so it wasn't that she walked in and learned the aria in 20 mins.

the issue is the incredible number of liberties she took with the song - interpretation, phrasing, etc. I'm fine with an artist adding some of their personality and perspective to a tune but i find Aretha's to be too far. Aretha is capable of singing more than just gospel. i think it would have been interesting to hear her learn classical phrasing and approach. to branch out. and i might be in the minority on this opinion which is fine

[sup_fan]

It wasn't Mary's job to care what the promoters thought. Everybody in the music biz is out for themselves and focus on their best interests. So yeah, Mary drew a hard line for what she thought was fair. I've always maintained that if [[and I don't know if this was Mary's thought or not) Mary expected to make what Diana was making, it was delusional. Diana was the bigger star and was also an investor in the tour. Mary was being asked to participate, not put up any money. But it's insulting- whether from the promoters, Diana, or both- to give Mary a dollar amount for a Supremes show and say "just show up". At that point she's an after thought, playing a secondary role. Mary had the right to stand up for herself, because let's face it, Diana will stand up for herself, and the promoters will stand up for themselves and protect their interests. I would never begrudge Mary the right to protect her own.

So Mary signs the contract and accepts the fee. Mary gets to rehearsal and find out that she and Cindy are standing waaaaaaaaayyyyyyyy in the back, stage left, while Diana is front and center. Mary and Cindy are also wearing mockups of Hudson Department store specials that the early Supremes would wear, while Diana is in some major designer frock.:cool:

The money might be good, but would Mary want to take a shower after picking the money up from the nightstand? We all have to have standards or someone will always be looking for a way to get over on us.

according to Randy's book on RTL [[lol yes yes, we're going there again), Diana wanted Mary and the promoters to hash out their negotiations about the money first. that would have then resulted in the contracts being finalized and signed. THEN she and mary would hash out the stage act itself. so assuming this is true, we're pretty much in agreement i think. mary would negotiate whatever fee she could get and whatever the promoters were willing to pay.

supposedly there were 2 big breakdowns - 1 mary was pissed that diana hadn't reached out earlier to chat about the idea and 2 mary wanted a full 1/3 financial share of the tour

the first one i can sort of agree with. and i 100% agree that once contracts were in place, mary should have been involved in everything. no Hudson knock off dresses lol. no standing 50 yards behind diana lol

but the second one is lunacy. mary wilson is not professionally worth that much money.

[khansperac]

That she did. The 20 minutes is always what gets me. She was always finding a way to remind folks of why she was the queen in the first place.

Aretha certainly rose to the occasion and it was great. But the way the story is told, it’s misleading. She had just performed the song a mere 2 days prior in a tribute to Pavarotti. So she was well rehearsed. With that said, she was a total professional.

[reese]

i think we have different definitions of Nailed It. i certainly appreciate her stepping in at a moment's notice but she had performed it a few nights earlier at another event so it wasn't that she walked in and learned the aria in 20 mins.

the issue is the incredible number of liberties she took with the song - interpretation, phrasing, etc. I'm fine with an artist adding some of their personality and perspective to a tune but i find Aretha's to be too far. Aretha is capable of singing more than just gospel. i think it would have been interesting to hear her learn classical phrasing and approach. to branch out. and i might be in the minority on this opinion which is fine

At one point, I believe Aretha was taking classical phrasing lessons. In one interview, she mentioned her teacher telling her to "roll the Rs". She also mentioned some criticism from opera purists but basically said that she had to do it her way.

Re the Grammy performance, I thought it was great. Yes, she had done the tune a few nights prior. But on the Grammys, she was singing it with more instrumentation, with a choir, and in Pavarotti's lower key as well. I actually think the Grammy performance is better than the MusicCares version [[in her key) that they released a few months later.

[marybrewster]

re: RTL.....

The fact remains that when it comes to reunions, regardless of what everyone else may think, one member is no greater than any other. Yes, certain members may have more pull or connections or finances, but do you think when the Eagles reunited that Glenn Frey said to Don Fedler and Don Henley, "hey, sign the contacts first and then we'll work out the details", or when Fleetwood Mac reunited for "The Dance" that Mick Fleetwood said "we'll shoot first and ask questions later"? NO.

Mary Wilson had every damn right to be a part of the process, the planning, the period. And regardless if we all think it was about money, it was about acknowledgment and principle.

[sup_fan]

re: RTL.....

The fact remains that when it comes to reunions, regardless of what everyone else may think, one member is no greater than any other. Yes, certain members may have more pull or connections or finances, but do you think when the Eagles reunited that Glenn Frey said to Don Fedler and Don Henley, "hey, sign the contacts first and then we'll work out the details", or when Fleetwood Mac reunited for "The Dance" that Mick Fleetwood said "we'll shoot first and ask questions later"? NO.

Mary Wilson had every damn right to be a part of the process, the planning, the period. And regardless if we all think it was about money, it was about acknowledgment and principle.

but rtl didn't originate as a Supremes reunion. it wasn't conceived that way. the promoters were working on Diana's next tour and the discussion was to do an extended segment of her supremes songs rather than just a medley. somehow that initial concept become morfed into a full reunion. frankly if the gossip hadn't started the reunion talk, i doubt we would have ever received anything remotely close to a reunion. Diana had met Scherrie and Lynda a few times and mentioned "wouldn't it be fun to do something" or something like that. but i don't think after Motown 25 and dreamgirl, diana ever had any intention of working with mary again.

[telekin]

yes and no

the fact remains that this is a business. no one [[other than die hard fans) gives two shits about what is "fair" or what is "right." whether it was 1983 or 2000, mary wilson had really 0 ground to stand on when it came to negotiating business around a reunion tour. she had no label, no solo successes. so no - no promoter was going to care about her wishes or whether she was "queen".

Zero ground? Really? I'm sorry, that's a ridiculous and quite frankly disrespectful position.

She was the only other original member of the group they were trying to reunite. I mean why even talk about a reunion then?

They didn't take Mary Wilson seriously enough and the result was a flop tour and a PR disaster, in no small part because of that. If they couldn't have come to terms with Mary, then they should have just done a Diana Ross Greatest Hits tour and have been done with it.

[RanRan79]

but the second one is lunacy. mary wilson is not professionally worth that much money.

Agreed, I would hate to think Mary went into this with that mindset. To fans Mary was invaluable, but business wise no one was going to put her on the same monetary pedestal as Diana. Again, Diana was also putting money into the tour. Mary was not being asked to contribute financially.

[RanRan79]

re: RTL.....

The fact remains that when it comes to reunions, regardless of what everyone else may think, one member is no greater than any other. Yes, certain members may have more pull or connections or finances, but do you think when the Eagles reunited that Glenn Frey said to Don Fedler and Don Henley, "hey, sign the contacts first and then we'll work out the details", or when Fleetwood Mac reunited for "The Dance" that Mick Fleetwood said "we'll shoot first and ask questions later"? NO.

Mary Wilson had every damn right to be a part of the process, the planning, the period. And regardless if we all think it was about money, it was about acknowledgment and principle.

I agree with all of this. The truth is that Diana should have called Mary up before she said a word to anyone else about it. They had been in contact previously, so it's not like this was the first time the two had spoken since all the Dreamgirl drama. And if I'm being honest, Mary too could have called Diana as soon as she got wind that something was brewing instead of waiting and having an attitude about it. [[Yes, I do believe Diana's story that Mary had an attitude when they finally did speak. Lol)

But unfortunately, Diana did think this was going to be all about her. She was the bride and Mary, and even Cindy, were her bridesmaids. The public said "yeah, no".

[RanRan79]

but rtl didn't originate as a Supremes reunion. it wasn't conceived that way. the promoters were working on Diana's next tour and the discussion was to do an extended segment of her supremes songs rather than just a medley. somehow that initial concept become morfed into a full reunion. frankly if the gossip hadn't started the reunion talk, i doubt we would have ever received anything remotely close to a reunion. Diana had met Scherrie and Lynda a few times and mentioned "wouldn't it be fun to do something" or something like that. but i don't think after Motown 25 and dreamgirl, diana ever had any intention of working with mary again.

If Diana didn't want to do a reunion, she could have refused to go along with it, and quite frankly it would have been in her nature to do so. I think it's entirely possible that by the time of RTL, the fans were holding more grudges about the whole Mary vs Diana thing than Mary and Diana were. Feelings may have softened. I can imagine that when all the drama was fresh, Diana probably didn't want to work with Mary again. And honestly, after being shoved and having her hand pushed away by Diana, Mary would have been justified in not desiring to take the stage with Diana again also. But a lot had happened in the years since all of that. Mary lost her son in a horrific way and Diana lost her brother in a horrific manner. In the wake of those tragedies, as sometimes happens with tragedies, there may have been some softening of the hearts. So whether Diana conjured up the idea or it was brought to her, she had to have been unbothered by the chance to work with Mary again or she would have simply vetoed the idea and moved on.

I do believe that when Diana said she would never work with Mary again after RTL, she meant it.

[RanRan79]

They didn't take Mary Wilson seriously enough and the result was a flop tour and a PR disaster, in no small part because of that. If they couldn't have come to terms with Mary, then they should have just done a Diana Ross Greatest Hits tour and have been done with it.

Unfortunately, this is the bottom line. The tour had some successes, but in the end it was a flop and the PR for Diana was absolutely horrible. No arguing that Diana was the bigger star, but she clearly underestimated [[as did everyone else behind the tour) what the public wanted when they hear "SUPREMES". Even when Diana made that crap crack about Mary singing "her" songs, that it was "her" voice on the records, that told me everything I needed to know about how Diana viewed the Supremes. It was all about her and she really thought the public was going to be okay with that.

I'm not sure her ego had ever gotten that bad of a bruise, not in her adult life. Not in her professional adult life. Word on the street is that after the last show and the tour was cancelled, one of the Velvelettes walked into the ladies room and found Diana kicking a stall.:cool:

[Ollie9]

Even without Mary, i think the the RTL tour could have succeeded with more realistically priced tickets. It never reached the UK, but it certainly looked and sounded a fantastic show. They should have scrapped the dancers and additional backing singers to save on costs. Scherrie and Lynda’s vocals really didn’t need augmenting.

[jim aka jtigre99]

Oh boy, RTL again. IMHO, those days were filled with reunions of groups and bands. A reunion of Diana Ross & The Supremes-Mary Wilson and Cindy Birdsong- would have worked. However, it needed to be a true reunion and every member should have been treated with dignity. I think the promoters and Diana thought Mary was just sitting by the phone waiting for the rumors to be true. Mary was actually touring England during negotiations. And no, she was not treated fairly or with consideration as an original member of the group. I don't think Diana understood that a reunion would be more than just her allowing the Supremes to join her. I didn't like people calling Scherrie and Lynda sub-Supremes when they joined. It really wasn't the right move to have them on the tour as none of them had worked together as Supremes during their Motown years, Scherrie and Lynda only after 1986 as the FLOs. I think there was the problems of Motown 25 and Dreamgirl along with Diana making statements that thinking Supremes songs were her songs, although she had no apparent problem with Scherrie & Lynda making a living singing them. Still, for a show that was not a reunion the ticket prices were high for that time, they didn't need additional background singers and dancers. I can also understand Mary felt hurt for not only not being "accepted" but being replaced by two singers that she actually chose and hired to be members of the Supremes. I honestly think if Diana and Mary had talked first and she had some input into the show, it would have been successful. Something about the dynamic of Diana and Mary was something the public wanted but also was the reason it would never happen. And that is sad.....

[thanxal]

Oh boy, RTL again.
LOL!!!
Also, I heard the Andantes are on some of the Supremes' songs.

[Ollie9]

Oh boy, RTL again. IMHO, those days were filled with reunions of groups and bands. A reunion of Diana Ross & The Supremes-Mary Wilson and Cindy Birdsong- would have worked. However, it needed to be a true reunion and every member should have been treated with dignity. I think the promoters and Diana thought Mary was just sitting by the phone waiting for the rumors to be true. Mary was actually touring England during negotiations. And no, she was not treated fairly or with consideration as an original member of the group. I don't think Diana understood that a reunion would be more than just her allowing the Supremes to join her. I didn't like people calling Scherrie and Lynda sub-Supremes when they joined. It really wasn't the right move to have them on the tour as none of them had worked together as Supremes during their Motown years, Scherrie and Lynda only after 1986 as the FLOs. I think there was the problems of Motown 25 and Dreamgirl along with Diana making statements that thinking Supremes songs were her songs, although she had no apparent problem with Scherrie & Lynda making a living singing them. Still, for a show that was not a reunion the ticket prices were high for that time, they didn't need additional background singers and dancers. I can also understand Mary felt hurt for not only not being "accepted" but being replaced by two singers that she actually chose and hired to be members of the Supremes. I honestly think if Diana and Mary had talked first and she had some input into the show, it would have been successful. Something about the dynamic of Diana and Mary was something the public wanted but also was the reason it would never happen. And that is sad.....

Diana calling the Supremes hits “my songs” was perhaps the wrong choice of words, but Mary’s accusation that Diana wanted everything for herself had made her defensive.
I think the point she was trying to make was that people bought those records not only for the terrific songs themselves, but also for the unique voice of the lead singer who made them something special.

[sup_fan]

Zero ground? Really? I'm sorry, that's a ridiculous and quite frankly disrespectful position.

She was the only other original member of the group they were trying to reunite. I mean why even talk about a reunion then?

They didn't take Mary Wilson seriously enough and the result was a flop tour and a PR disaster, in no small part because of that. If they couldn't have come to terms with Mary, then they should have just done a Diana Ross Greatest Hits tour and have been done with it.

i'm not trying to bash mary. but in both 83 and 00 mary was not a significant concert draw. let's get serious - promoters don't care about history or feelings or "what's right." they're working to create profitable tours. Diana by herself was hugely profitable and unfortunately the idea of reuniting the supremes frankly wasn't going to be all that much more profitable than a diana-solo tour. so if you were a promoter, you're going to focus on whatever will drive the fattest profit. Diana is a vital component. Mary was not. adding mary to a tour would not double the ticket sales. or enable the tour to jump to larger venues.

in regards to RTL, there was a myriad of problems that plagued it. you're right - the issue of M and C not participating was very large but even more damaging was the publicity mary stirred up to air her feelings. had she not done that [[and I'm not blaming her for doing so), things would have probably gone ok enough. but the tour was wildly expensive to produce and ticket sales were crazy high. even with DMC the tour would have struggled in many of the venues because they were booked at some of the largest arenas. and in the US, the public interest had dwindled for Diana. Europe would have done better

[sup_fan]

If Diana didn't want to do a reunion, she could have refused to go along with it, and quite frankly it would have been in her nature to do so. I think it's entirely possible that by the time of RTL, the fans were holding more grudges about the whole Mary vs Diana thing than Mary and Diana were. Feelings may have softened. I can imagine that when all the drama was fresh, Diana probably didn't want to work with Mary again. And honestly, after being shoved and having her hand pushed away by Diana, Mary would have been justified in not desiring to take the stage with Diana again also. But a lot had happened in the years since all of that. Mary lost her son in a horrific way and Diana lost her brother in a horrific manner. In the wake of those tragedies, as sometimes happens with tragedies, there may have been some softening of the hearts. So whether Diana conjured up the idea or it was brought to her, she had to have been unbothered by the chance to work with Mary again or she would have simply vetoed the idea and moved on.

I do believe that when Diana said she would never work with Mary again after RTL, she meant it.

i agree with you that i too was a bit surprised that Diana was open to the idea. it probably would have been best to just stick with the promoter's idea of doing a much larger, expanded segment on the Sups music, full renditions. performing them much more true to the original sound.

i'm guessing but i think the convoluted manner in which the idea of a reunion emerged resulted in the disjoined communications and the miscommunication. sounds like the idea was taking hold in the public well before it was a serious consideration for Diana. mary gets wind of it and then starts getting mad that she hasn't even been talked to yet. meanwhile Diana is still thinking she's doing a solo tour

[sup_fan]

Diana calling the Supremes hits “my songs” was perhaps the wrong choice of words, but Mary’s accusation that Diana wanted everything for herself had made her defensive.
I think the point she was trying to make was that people bought those records not only for the terrific songs themselves, but also for the unique voice of the lead singer who made them something special.

agreed - in the middle of an interview, i think sometimes you fumble for words. especially since this all happened within just a couple days. the back to back 20/20 interviews with M and D. she wasn't reading from prepared remarks.

when you listen to You Can't Hurry Love and it's diana singing it, it sounds very close to the original because you're familiar with the lead vocals and that's her voice. when it's the Dixie Chicks or Phil Collins or Mary Wilson singing the lead part, it can still sound great. but it can't sound like Diana because none of those vocalists sound like her. so it sounds more like a remake

[marybrewster]

Once the talk switched from doing a Supremes segment to doing a Supremes reunion, that's when the "planning" should have stopped and Mary and Cindy should have been brought in. Diana shouldn't have been "fronting" the tour. Everyone should have gotten an equal compensation. I'll say it for the back row: do you think Christine McVie got paid less than Stevie Nicks? Ha.

Yes, Diana is a superstar and made a kajillion dollars more than Mary Wilson. So, you can have a Supremes reunion without Diana Ross. But you can't have a Supremes reunion without Mary.

The recent Lynda, Scherrie, and Susaye performance is the closest and last thing we're ever going to get.

[RanRan79]

Diana calling the Supremes hits “my songs” was perhaps the wrong choice of words, but Mary’s accusation that Diana wanted everything for herself had made her defensive.
I think the point she was trying to make was that people bought those records not only for the terrific songs themselves, but also for the unique voice of the lead singer who made them something special.

Then combat Mary's statement with, "I've never wanted everything for myself. Regarding this tour, I'm an investor, Mary was not. I stood to either make money on my investment or lose money on my investment. Mary was only in position to make money, not lose any." Instead Diana reinforced Mary's statement. There's no denying that Diana was an attraction on the Supremes' hits, but Supremes songs didn't belong to just Diana, they belong to Mary too. What Diana said was insulting and dismissive.

[RanRan79]

Once the talk switched from doing a Supremes segment to doing a Supremes reunion, that's when the "planning" should have stopped and Mary and Cindy should have been brought in. Diana shouldn't have been "fronting" the tour. Everyone should have gotten an equal compensation. I'll say it for the back row: do you think Christine McVie got paid less than Stevie Nicks? Ha.

Yes, Diana is a superstar and made a kajillion dollars more than Mary Wilson. So, you can have a Supremes reunion without Diana Ross. But you can't have a Supremes reunion without Mary.

The recent Lynda, Scherrie, and Susaye performance is the closest and last thing we're ever going to get.

I agree, except Diana was also a financial backer of the tour. If an outsider came in and said here's 100 million dollars for a Supremes reunion tour, I do think it's only fair that the 100 would get split three ways. But when one Supreme is party to bringing the tour to fruition financially, the other two Supremes who are not contributing financially can't demand to make the same amount that the investor plans on recouping and profiting. That just doesn't make sense.

Now, had Berry Gordy decided he wanted to financially back a Supremes reunion and said he's willing to pay Diana 10 million to do it, Mary and Cindy 4 million to do it, then Diana looks at her worth and says she's worth 20 million and she's not willing to do it for anything less than that, I'd say that's fair. Now, Diana has demanded to be paid what she feels she's worth, and Mary looks at that and says if it's the Supremes they should be getting the same amount, so if Diana is getting 20, she and Cindy should get the same thing, I'd say that's fair too. But that's not how the tour was put together.

But I definitely agree that once it was decided to go with the Supremes idea, nothing should have moved forward until Diana and Mary got together to iron out some details, and there had to be total respect for all parties, not go alongs to get along. Mary deserved better than that.

[bradsupremes]

sounds like the idea was taking hold in the public well before it was a serious consideration for Diana. mary gets wind of it and then starts getting mad that she hasn't even been talked to yet. meanwhile Diana is still thinking she's doing a solo tour

There was planning and movement on the tour between Diana and the promoters before Mary was contacted in December 1999.

[lucky2012]

Diana calling the Supremes hits “my songs” was perhaps the wrong choice of words, but Mary’s accusation that Diana wanted everything for herself had made her defensive.
I think the point she was trying to make was that people bought those records not only for the terrific songs themselves, but also for the unique voice of the lead singer who made them something special.

Yes, “wrong choice of words” :[[ Very poor! but said in a defensive moment.

The Supremes were always a group for me, the HDH songs/productions are timeless to me and the Motown Sound is the soundtrack of my life. But I have to agree that “the unique voice of the lead singer…made them something special”. It was unmistakable, I always knew who it was and I was never fooled or convinced otherwise. I bought the Supremes records because of that voice. For me, no one else could “own” those “songs”.

[sup_fan]

There was planning and movement on the tour between Diana and the promoters before Mary was contacted in December 1999.

correct but wasn't it first conceived as a solo tour for Diana? and that within that tour they'd change things up and do a bigger Supremes segment? then later the idea of reuniting DMC was added.

so assuming this is true, then yes. Diana and promoters would be discussing things in advance of any dialogs with mary. the question is when did the "reunion" concept start to gel and what was that timeline. also did it start with the promoters and Diana thinking it was a good idea or was it more outside voices/forces starting to spin the idea around in the public?

i don't disagree that once the idea was becoming something Diana was giving some serious thought to, that it would have made sense for diana to at least talk with mary.

[Spreadinglove21]

Let's not forget in 1999/2000, Diana Ross' career as a contemporary pop star who could score hits was fading more and more into history, especially in the US. Doing a Supremes reunion was the ace up her sleeve to return to media and show business prominence. I believe once negotiations broke down she should have either done an Every day is a New Day tour, or tend to her personal issues and not tour at all. Don't forget not long after RTL failed she was checking into rehab stints and getting arrested for drunk driving so maybe her decision to move ahead with RTL with Lynda and Scherrie was impaired by her growing drinking [[and pills?) problem.

Certainly the decision to go ahead with RTL and doing a "reunion" with two women she never performed with played into the image she had as a selfish egotistical diva bitch. And Mary ran with it in her anti-RTL media campaign. That didn't help the tour.

In hindsight it should have never have happened. Only good thing to come from tour were the great charts composed for the Supremes song for that tour.

[marybrewster]

Any hopes of real reunion of the Supremes ended in 1976 when Flo Ballard passed away. What the fans really wanted in the 40 years after is for Diana and Mary in some capacity to have a special moment to acknowledge each other and have their contributions to music history recognized, together.

A more suitable reunion would have been a special Grammy where each recieved an award, said a few words, and took a few pictures. That, my darlings, would have been plenty.

Thankfully we did have a few moments near the end where Diana and Mary were cordial, and seemingly put a nice period at the end of the sentence.

[thanxal]

Any hopes of real reunion of the Supremes ended in 1976 when Flo Ballard passed away. What the fans really wanted in the 40 years after is for Diana and Mary in some capacity to have a special moment to acknowledge each other and have their contributions to music history recognized, together.

A more suitable reunion would have been a special Grammy where each recieved an award, said a few words, and took a few pictures. That, my darlings, would have been plenty.

Thankfully we did have a few moments near the end where Diana and Mary were cordial, and seemingly put a nice period at the end of the sentence.
Well said!

[jobeterob]

Any hopes of real reunion of the Supremes ended in 1976 when Flo Ballard passed away. What the fans really wanted in the 40 years after is for Diana and Mary in some capacity to have a special moment to acknowledge each other and have their contributions to music history recognized, together.

A more suitable reunion would have been a special Grammy where each recieved an award, said a few words, and took a few pictures. That, my darlings, would have been plenty.

Thankfully we did have a few moments near the end where Diana and Mary were cordial, and seemingly put a nice period at the end of the sentence.

Thanks about as nice a wrap up as could be made!

[telekin]

i'm not trying to bash mary. but in both 83 and 00 mary was not a significant concert draw.

I understand you're generally critical of Mary, often to the point of being dismissive, like you are here. No one's arguing she’s at the same level as Diana, but she had enough name recognition as an original Supreme to sustain a career as a working entertainer, had a couple of books to her name, one a best-seller. Even if she wasn't operating at the same level as Diana, that does not count for zero.


let's get serious - promoters don't care about history or feelings or "what's right." they're working to create profitable tours.

Really? You make it seem like these people were in the business of selling soap, not in the business of show, where dealing with big, fragile star egos and diva demands - in other words, history, feelings, insecurities, entitlements - is actually par for the course and part of the cost of doing business.


Diana by herself was hugely profitable and unfortunately the idea of reuniting the supremes frankly wasn't going to be all that much more profitable than a diana-solo tour. so if you were a promoter, you're going to focus on whatever will drive the fattest profit. Diana is a vital component. Mary was not. adding mary to a tour would not double the ticket sales. or enable the tour to jump to larger venues.

Do you know this or are you just assuming this?

Because this is not how I recall things going down at the time… Like you and others acknowledge, Diana wasn’t the draw she had been in earlier years. I remember DR openly lamenting to the press that her most recent album at the time had tanked, and that promoters were unsure about embarking on a tour on the back of that. A Diana Ross & The Supremes reunion, however, stood a greater chance with the public with her grudgingly remarking, and I’m paraphrasing here, “if this is what the people want, then I’ll give it to them.”

Like it or not, Mary was a vital part. Without her on-side you couldn’t call it a reunion and yes, it does make a difference. Whether or not members of the general public knew her or Cindy by name, just like when acts embark on “farewell tours,” billing it as a reunion would have been key to justifying higher ticket prices, larger venues, and ideally generating reams of positive buzz in the press and public good-will. Much needed at the time, particularly for Diana, who had come off a few diva controversies - I'm thinking about her interaction with Lil’ Kim at the 1999 MTV VMAs and that frisking incident at Heathrow. The controversy around RTL instead only added to the negative pile-on.


in regards to RTL, there was a myriad of problems that plagued it. you're right - the issue of M and C not participating was very large but even more damaging was the publicity mary stirred up to air her feelings. had she not done that [[and I'm not blaming her for doing so), things would have probably gone ok enough.


Well maybe, maybe not. One of the problems, and this is my opinion, was the branding and promotional strategy was off. Starting with the name, “Return to Love," which sounded like it was cooked up for a DRATS reunion, but when it became Diana, Lynda and Scherrie, no longer really fit.

While they were careful to emphasize that it was not a reunion, calling it “Return to Love” nevertheless kept all of the nostalgic connotations of a reunion. Given that Lynda and Scherrie had not sang with Diana before, this was an entirely new group, so what exactly were we “returning” to? Again, just my opinion, but it only added to the perception that they were selling something that wasn’t exactly what it was.

[Spreadinglove21]

I suspect Diana Ross was inspired to name the tour "Return to Love" as Marianne Williamson, a new agey self help writer who later ran for President in 2020, had a best selling book in 1996 called Return to Love and I suspect the book is the type of thing that Diana Ross, if her interviews, the Thank You album lyrics, and Secrets of a sparrow are any indication, enjoys.

https://www.amazon.com/Return-Love-Reflections-Principles-Miracles/dp/0060927488

[rod_rick]

i'm not trying to bash mary. but in both 83 and 00 mary was not a significant concert draw. let's get serious - promoters don't care about history or feelings or "what's right." they're working to create profitable tours. Diana by herself was hugely profitable and unfortunately the idea of reuniting the supremes frankly wasn't going to be all that much more profitable than a diana-solo tour. so if you were a promoter, you're going to focus on whatever will drive the fattest profit. Diana is a vital component. Mary was not. adding mary to a tour would not double the ticket sales. or enable the tour to jump to larger venues.

in regards to RTL, there was a myriad of problems that plagued it. you're right - the issue of M and C not participating was very large but even more damaging was the publicity mary stirred up to air her feelings. had she not done that [[and I'm not blaming her for doing so), things would have probably gone ok enough. but the tour was wildly expensive to produce and ticket sales were crazy high. even with DMC the tour would have struggled in many of the venues because they were booked at some of the largest arenas. and in the US, the public interest had dwindled for Diana. Europe would have done better

Only speaking for myself, I was not interested in a tour with Diana Scherrie & Lynda and I damn sure wasn't going to pay those outrageous prices if Mary and Cindy were not on the tour. I will say I would pay to see Diana, Mary Cindy and the Flos in their own individual concerts.

[sup_fan]

I understand you're generally critical of Mary, often to the point of being dismissive, like you are here. No one's arguing she’s at the same level as Diana, but she had enough name recognition as an original Supreme to sustain a career as a working entertainer, had a couple of books to her name, one a best-seller. Even if she wasn't operating at the same level as Diana, that does not count for zero.



Really? You make it seem like these people were in the business of selling soap, not in the business of show, where dealing with big, fragile star egos and diva demands - in other words, history, feelings, insecurities, entitlements - is actually par for the course and part of the cost of doing business.



Do you know this or are you just assuming this?

Because this is not how I recall things going down at the time… Like you and others acknowledge, Diana wasn’t the draw she had been in earlier years. I remember DR openly lamenting to the press that her most recent album at the time had tanked, and that promoters were unsure about embarking on a tour on the back of that. A Diana Ross & The Supremes reunion, however, stood a greater chance with the public with her grudgingly remarking, and I’m paraphrasing here, “if this is what the people want, then I’ll give it to them.”

Like it or not, Mary was a vital part. Without her on-side you couldn’t call it a reunion and yes, it does make a difference. Whether or not members of the general public knew her or Cindy by name, just like when acts embark on “farewell tours,” billing it as a reunion would have been key to justifying higher ticket prices, larger venues, and ideally generating reams of positive buzz in the press and public good-will. Much needed at the time, particularly for Diana, who had come off a few diva controversies - I'm thinking about her interaction with Lil’ Kim at the 1999 MTV VMAs and that frisking incident at Heathrow. The controversy around RTL instead only added to the negative pile-on.




Well maybe, maybe not. One of the problems, and this is my opinion, was the branding and promotional strategy was off. Starting with the name, “Return to Love," which sounded like it was cooked up for a DRATS reunion, but when it became Diana, Lynda and Scherrie, no longer really fit.

While they were careful to emphasize that it was not a reunion, calling it “Return to Love” nevertheless kept all of the nostalgic connotations of a reunion. Given that Lynda and Scherrie had not sang with Diana before, this was an entirely new group, so what exactly were we “returning” to? Again, just my opinion, but it only added to the perception that they were selling something that wasn’t exactly what it was.

i don't believe it's being dismissive of mary to accurately call out that she was not a significant pop presence or concert draw in 1983 or 2000. just because i point out the flaws or mistakes one of the women makes, doesn't mean i'm "anti mary" or "anti diana"
but nor am i one of the minions that views one of the ladies as some sort of goddess.

nor should it be of any surprise that promoters are in the business of drawing a profit. they're not concerned about sentimentality. their focus is on volume of tickets sold. so yes, it is like selling soap. a ticket is a commodity. the emotional component comes in second. sure once a tour is announced and dates are being sold, everyone hypes up the activities to play on people's feelings. but in the end, a promoter isn't going to care whether or not Member X is on board, so long as the tour can still be profitable.

someone tried to compare the Supremes' reunion to Fleetwood Mac. problem is these are two very different musical acts. FM had multiple lead singers, they played their instruments, wrote their music. people in general see the various members as contributing a significant part of the overall song and sound. while core fans certainly feel that way about the supremes [[me included), the general public sees the group as "Diana Ross and two women who sang with her." there are a zillion reasons for this but like it or not, it's the reality.

Would people have enjoyed a Supremes reunion with DMC? sure. it would have sold very well. but would it have sold 2, 3 4X a diana ross solo tour? no. that vast majority of the ticket purchases probably would go see a DR show. you're not drawing in thousands and thousands of incremental purchasers.

i do agree with you that "reunion" would require DMC. and what diana tried to package up, although a lovely show, after all of the news hype, i agree that she should have just done a solo tour and cooled off at home a while. there was just too much negativity and there had been a long history of bad blood which this just added to

[sup_fan]

Only speaking for myself, I was not interested in a tour with Diana Scherrie & Lynda and I damn sure wasn't going to pay those outrageous prices if Mary and Cindy were not on the tour. I will say I would pay to see Diana, Mary Cindy and the Flos in their own individual concerts.

i can't remember exactly but weren't top ticket prices something like $250 or more? even a DMC reunion would have extreme difficulty in demanding that level of pricing. maybe if this was a massive 1 or 2 night event in Vegas or NY. but for taking this on the road, that was insane pricing.

perhaps if they'd done a major Vegas event with ALL of the Supremes in attendance and participating, you might have been able to pull that off. a mega show with a tour reunion and all of the lineups represented properly. you possibly could have done a few days of this. if it had been properly hyped up, you could have gotten people to travel to Vegas for it. or again, maybe it does just a few shows in top US cities. then perhaps Diana continues on as a solo tour, pushing Every Day and having a nice fat Sup segment in the act.

[marybrewster]

I compared the DRATS reunion to the Fleetwood Mac reunion. If you reread my post, it wasn't about the group itself or them writing songs, playing instruments, or singing. It was about them, as original members, receiving equal pay for their participation. Again, you can have a Supremes reunion without Diana Ross, but you can't have a Supremes reunion without Mary Wilson.

And while I agree a solo Diana tour might have sold 2x 3x 4x more than a DRATS tour, that train had long left the station by 2000. I saw her just a few years later at a small venue; a far cry from the 10k and 20k venues she once could fill. But that happens to aging divas in the business: I saw both Tina and Cher on their "farewell" tours, and neither sold out.

Regardless, Diana is now happy playing state fairs and casinos. Any reunion ended with Flo's and Mary's passing.

[Ryon6]

I compared the DRATS reunion to the Fleetwood Mac reunion. If you reread my post, it wasn't about the group itself or them writing songs, playing instruments, or singing. It was about them, as original members, receiving equal pay for their participation. Again, you can have a Supremes reunion without Diana Ross, but you can't have a Supremes reunion without Mary Wilson.

And while I agree a solo Diana tour might have sold 2x 3x 4x more than a DRATS tour, that train had long left the station by 2000. I saw her just a few years later at a small venue; a far cry from the 10k and 20k venues she once could fill. But that happens to aging divas in the business: I saw both Tina and Cher on their "farewell" tours, and neither sold out.

Regardless, Diana is now happy playing state fairs and casinos. Any reunion ended with Flo's and Mary's passing.

I’m late to the party and admit I didn’t read all the posts and forgive me if already mentioned but couldn’t Mary, Cindy and Scherrie appear as the Tempts opening act?

[Ollie9]

Some really interesting perspectives here. I can’t help wondering if questioned how Diana herself now feels about the extremely public events that led to the RTL tour being cancelled. Along with her divorce, it certainly appeared detrimental to her mental health. Would she have done things differently or still consider Mary the culprit.?
The time is now ripe for work to commence on that book M’s Ross.

[bradsupremes]

Some really interesting perspectives here. I can’t help wondering if questioned how Diana herself now feels about the extremely public events that led to the RTL tour being cancelled. Along with her divorce, it certainly appeared detrimental to her mental health. Would she have done things differently or still consider Mary the culprit.?
The time is now ripe for work to commence on that book M’s Ross.

Diana wasn't in a good state mentally when RTL took place. She had experienced some negative press regarding her behavior like the one at Heathrow, her marriage was ending, she was going through menopause, etc. A lot of the point of RTL was to bring back something positive from her past to help her move forward. I've always felt that if she was in the mindset she is in now back in 2000, the course of RTL would have gone much differently and she would have been more receptive to Mary and her requests.

[sup_fan]

I compared the DRATS reunion to the Fleetwood Mac reunion. If you reread my post, it wasn't about the group itself or them writing songs, playing instruments, or singing. It was about them, as original members, receiving equal pay for their participation. Again, you can have a Supremes reunion without Diana Ross, but you can't have a Supremes reunion without Mary Wilson.

And while I agree a solo Diana tour might have sold 2x 3x 4x more than a DRATS tour, that train had long left the station by 2000. I saw her just a few years later at a small venue; a far cry from the 10k and 20k venues she once could fill. But that happens to aging divas in the business: I saw both Tina and Cher on their "farewell" tours, and neither sold out.

Regardless, Diana is now happy playing state fairs and casinos. Any reunion ended with Flo's and Mary's passing.

i get it - and i only have limited knowledge of FM. my point in my reply was simply the general disinterest and disrespect the industry and the public applies to The Supremes. while i wish it wasn't the case, i believe the most people see the group as "diana ross and two other singers" and therefore the reunion of those 3 is not seen as noteworthy.

it's hard to determine exactly why - sexism, the girls didn't play instruments/write/produce, they were black girls with a white sound/look, motowns efforts to hype up diana as THE one. probably a bit of all of it

[bradsupremes]

it's hard to determine exactly why - sexism, the girls didn't play instruments/write/produce, they were black girls with a white sound/look, motowns efforts to hype up diana as THE one. probably a bit of all of it

It's all of those things with heavy emphasis on sexism and racism. The music industry is still a white man's game. Unless you're a woman who can do it all the industry is not going to raise you up. The Supremes have never been given the recognition by their peers for what they accomplished, influenced, and achieved. Some will say it's the backstage drama that hurt them but I don't believe that for one second. In our society, people crave the drama.

For them being the most important American group to have major success in the 60s and to be a counterbalance to the Beatles' chart domination, its rather shameful the music industry has not placed the ladies on the pedestal they deserve to be on. I think if Diana fully embraced her past it may have helped how the industry viewed them. But when she left in 1970, she really left. Yes, she still performs the music but not showing up for important achievements like the Rock Hall induction in 1988 or the Hollywood Walk of Fame in 1994, she gave the appearance she didn't care. I know she did and is proud of those achievements and wanted to give Mary the spotlight as the group was hers, but being absent gave the appearance she didn't care. The industry looks at that and thinks "Well if she doesn't care, why should we?" Especially now with Mary gone, who is carrying the Supremes torch? Diana hasn't picked it up.

[sup_fan]

It's all of those things with heavy emphasis on sexism and racism. The music industry is still a white man's game. Unless you're a woman who can do it all the industry is not going to raise you up. The Supremes have never been given the recognition by their peers for what they accomplished, influenced, and achieved. Some will say it's the backstage drama that hurt them but I don't believe that for one second. In our society, people crave the drama.

For them being the most important American group to have major success in the 60s and to be a counterbalance to the Beatles' chart domination, its rather shameful the music industry has not placed the ladies on the pedestal they deserve to be on. I think if Diana fully embraced her past it may have helped how the industry viewed them. But when she left in 1970, she really left. Yes, she still performs the music but not showing up for important achievements like the Rock Hall induction in 1988 or the Hollywood Walk of Fame in 1994, she gave the appearance she didn't care. I know she did and is proud of those achievements and wanted to give Mary the spotlight as the group was hers, but being absent gave the appearance she didn't care. The industry looks at that and thinks "Well if she doesn't care, why should we?" Especially now with Mary gone, who is carrying the Supremes torch? Diana hasn't picked it up.

totally agree. hollywood is similar. the lack of respect paid to women is shocking but not surprising. producers, directors and the big time wheelers/dealers are men. and white.

it's also a shame that more of current younger, successful women aren't doing more to lift up all women. while some people said Diana and Motown were just doing it for superficial or self-serving reasons, they did highlight music and musicians that preceded them. Diana's show obviously highlighted Lady but she also did others. her appearances on Hollywood Palace with Ethel and Sammy and others. their tribute albums. Lady Gaga has done a nice job with incorporating Tony Bennett and the American Songbook into her work. others should too

[marybrewster]

i get it - and i only have limited knowledge of FM. my point in my reply was simply the general disinterest and disrespect the industry and the public applies to The Supremes. while i wish it wasn't the case, i believe the most people see the group as "diana ross and two other singers" and therefore the reunion of those 3 is not seen as noteworthy.

it's hard to determine exactly why - sexism, the girls didn't play instruments/write/produce, they were black girls with a white sound/look, motowns efforts to hype up diana as THE one. probably a bit of all of it

I agree. That's why we have the Beatles Farting Sessions on CD, Elvis' Karate Grunts Expanded Edition, and Marvin's WHAT'S GOING ON? 3000. And yet can't even get through the DRATS catalog.

[captainjames]

As much as I love and respect the girls I am glad it did not happen and perhaps Diana saw through it as well. Another chapter in a book that we have never knew or guess and just more bad blood. Mary has said what she wants regarding Diana and Flo told us what we needed to know about Mary. There is no way three originals are getting on that stage now. Barbara, Flo and Mary are gone so I have moved on. Mary has said in interviews that it was all about money. Her net worth at the time of death was 8 million and she was offered 4 million to perform with 2 million coming directly Diana.

[jim aka jtigre99]

I sincerely wrestled with responding to this, but it bothered me so I have to respond. RTL failed for a number of reasons. Diana and Mary and the Promoters share blame. Mary did accept the 4 million but was told the train had left the station. Yes, she did put a lot of emphasis on how much she would be paid. As a founding member, she deserved to be considered more than how the promoters and Diana treated her. Diana treating Mary and Cindy as nothing more than there to help her with this tour said all I needed to know about Diana. Perhaps, she does think everything is just for her and her alone. That is not what the total legacy of the Supremes is about. When Mary stated it was not all about the money, that questioned wasn't that enough she responded with I think fair is a better word and that it wasn't even that but how degrading her treatment was. Also, it is true that from 1967-70 Diana did use the framework of the Supremes to launch her solo career. Diana really would not have been able to have such a big splash in 1967 as she did in 1970. I think the following clip says what I need to know about Mary
https://youtu.be/KAgtQdrGiLE

[BobbyC]

I'm bored so I'm actually going to participate in this RTL discussion with a viewpoint that will not be popular. I loved Mary, but have to ask, who broke her fingers so she couldn't have called Diana when she first heard rumors about a reunion? Why did she just sit back, getting more and more resentful, waiting until DR called her? When DR finally picked up the phone, Mary was nasty. These two seemed locked into old patterns from their younger years and they both should have grown up and been respectful of each other. Putting this all on Diana is not objective reality. Mary could have just called DR and asked if the rumors were true but no--she had to create drama. This whole situation could have been avoided. In the end, everybody, including the fans, lost out. Ancient history, yes, but totally avoidable.

[marybrewster]

Diana has always said, if you need me, call me.....but does anyone have her number? It's a nice thought for Mary to reach out to Diana.....but I truly don't think at that time she even knew where to call. BG certainly wasn't going to give Mary Diana's digits.

[RanRan79]

Diana has always said, if you need me, call me.....but does anyone have her number? It's a nice thought for Mary to reach out to Diana.....but I truly don't think at that time she even knew where to call. BG certainly wasn't going to give Mary Diana's digits.

I don't believe that. I believe after Mary's son's death she and Diana were in contact, and it's hard for me to fathom that after what happened with T-Boy that Mary would not have been in touch with Diana. It might be possible that prior to the "discussion" Diana had changed her number and Mary did not have it, yet. But Mary, the social butterfly that she was, surely was in contact with people who had Diana's number, a Diana, I suspect, who isn't as closed off from people as she is sometimes painted, and I think it was well within the realm of possibility for Mary to reach out when she heard through the grapevine that a reunion might be taking shape.

[RanRan79]

I sincerely wrestled with responding to this, but it bothered me so I have to respond. RTL failed for a number of reasons. Diana and Mary and the Promoters share blame. Mary did accept the 4 million but was told the train had left the station. Yes, she did put a lot of emphasis on how much she would be paid. As a founding member, she deserved to be considered more than how the promoters and Diana treated her. Diana treating Mary and Cindy as nothing more than there to help her with this tour said all I needed to know about Diana. Perhaps, she does think everything is just for her and her alone. That is not what the total legacy of the Supremes is about. When Mary stated it was not all about the money, that questioned wasn't that enough she responded with I think fair is a better word and that it wasn't even that but how degrading her treatment was. Also, it is true that from 1967-70 Diana did use the framework of the Supremes to launch her solo career. Diana really would not have been able to have such a big splash in 1967 as she did in 1970. I think the following clip says what I need to know about Mary

I can't watch the video because I really don't want to have the visual of when the Supremes were headline news again and this bullshit was the reason why. But I'm glad you pointed out the "train" leaving the station bit. That really should be the final word on how disrespectful this turned out for Mary. Say what you will about her originally declining or dragging her feet, or whatever happened, when she did call to accept the 4, how does an original Supreme get told "the train has left the station"? So it was too late to bring Mary on board, but not too late to bring in Lynda and Scherrie? Get out of here!

I really do believe that Diana wanted Mary involved. If she didn't, she would have left things as they were when the 2 million was declined. Instead she doubled it, because she wanted Mary there. But I do believe Diana underestimated Mary's value and the public's desire to see her there. Diana and Mary onstage together, whether just the two of them, or with Cindy, or with any other woman or women who were Supremes, makes things feel Supreme, as long as it's Diana and Mary. Throughout the thread the accusation has been alleged that the ticket prices were too high, even if Mary had been on the tour. For a Supremes reunion? When people were surely paying more than that for some other big reunions of the time? A lot of folks stayed home because in their minds Lynda and Scherrie were "nobodies" and this was essentially a Diana Ross solo show. I remember all the discussions about it on the radio and among people I knew. The tour was largely seen as illegitimate. Diana overplayed her hand.

If Mary wasn't going to do it, she should have scrapped the idea and focused on her long and storied career. What a cool tour it could have been had she opted instead to focus on performing songs she hadn't sung in forever or never had done live, album cuts from Surrender or Baby It's Me, "Sleepin", "Now That There's You", "Sparkle", "Crying My Heart Out For You", "Brown Baby", etc.

Her ego has both served her well and hindered her throughout her career.

[sup_fan]

I sincerely wrestled with responding to this, but it bothered me so I have to respond. RTL failed for a number of reasons. Diana and Mary and the Promoters share blame. Mary did accept the 4 million but was told the train had left the station. Yes, she did put a lot of emphasis on how much she would be paid. As a founding member, she deserved to be considered more than how the promoters and Diana treated her. Diana treating Mary and Cindy as nothing more than there to help her with this tour said all I needed to know about Diana. Perhaps, she does think everything is just for her and her alone. That is not what the total legacy of the Supremes is about. When Mary stated it was not all about the money, that questioned wasn't that enough she responded with I think fair is a better word and that it wasn't even that but how degrading her treatment was. Also, it is true that from 1967-70 Diana did use the framework of the Supremes to launch her solo career. Diana really would not have been able to have such a big splash in 1967 as she did in 1970. I think the following clip says what I need to know about Mary
https://youtu.be/KAgtQdrGiLE

i'm at work so can't watch the video right now lol. but i remember in general most of her interviews around this time.

i thought, from a PR perspective, the money issue just came across as not flattering. to any of the women. if i had been helping her with coming up with her response, i think she should have focused more on the issue of overall involvement. I think the argument of being told to just show up to rehearsal on time, smile, sing your part and then leave does a good job in showing the lack of her professional involvement and ideas. she could easily have said "i was one of the founding members. and i was the only member to remain until the group disbanded in '77. So i feel that for a reunion to take place, i deserve a full seat in the decision-making process. such as "how will the act be staged, what songs will we do, how will the show progress." things like that. I've been keeping the supremes legacy alive for decades and feel that i have a legitimate perspective and idea for how a reunion should be formed, given my involvement with the group."

[BobbyC]

Mary could have found her number, considering all of her and DR's mutual friend networks. I mean, come on. I don't fault Mary for feeling the way she did, I fault her for how she handled it. She was a grown woman.

[sup_fan]

agreed. i don't know that the approach Mary took after things fell apart was in anyone's best interest. sure it got mary a few tv bookings but she came across negative too. diana really got the mud splashed on her but in the end it was the group's legacy that suffered the most.

we're all just speculating on what was going on behind closed doors and through negotiations. even if Diana was being truly horrid [[which i don't think she was), what was the real benefit of Mary making such a loud complaint about it? everyone looked bad here

[BobbyC]

It's not even clear if DR knew how Mary was feeling when she made that fateful phone call. She's not a mind reader. DR always said that Mary was not the decision making kind and since DR was, naturally DR filled that void. To be fair, DR was never exactly known for thinking about other people or how her actions affected others. So Mary did what she always did--sit back and gather resentment. oh well, ancient history.

[RanRan79]

Yeah, I'm not faulting Mary for a lot of what was going on behind the scenes, but I've always thought she did a disservice to the group legacy by taking things public. Once again the Supremes had been reduced to feuding females and the focus was on that and not on the great music and their contribution to pop culture. We didn't need to know what was going on. Of course her absence was going to be notable and people were going to wonder.

"Unfortunately, we couldn't come to terms on the business side of things, therefore I've had to bow out. But I wish Diana and the other ladies the best!"

Or, in order to not even get that specific:

"I have had to decline participation in the tour at this time. I wish Diana and the ladies all the best and look forward to being able to reunite as the Supremes another time."

Mary's gripes were largely valid, but presenting them to the public only dragged the Supremes' legacy through the mud because the public loves drama and the drama becomes the focus.

[RanRan79]

Someone pointed out before about Diana's personal issues at the time and how that might have affected her decision making. I think that's valid. Also, wasn't Mary's mother dealing with Alzheimers at this time? I imagine that stress might also have affected the way Mary handled everything. It's always important to remember these ladies as human beings, being affected by the same life crap as the rest of us. Mental health, addiction, stress, it was all most likely playing a part here.

[reese]

Someone pointed out before about Diana's personal issues at the time and how that might have affected her decision making. I think that's valid. Also, wasn't Mary's mother dealing with Alzheimers at this time? I imagine that stress might also have affected the way Mary handled everything. It's always important to remember these ladies as human beings, being affected by the same life crap as the rest of us. Mental health, addiction, stress, it was all most likely playing a part here.

Mary's mom passed away in 1997. Still, it was recent and I don't think there's anyone alive who truly gets over losing a parent. I do believe Mary might have been in college during this time.

That said, I just wish no news was dropped in the media re the proposed reunion until all was finalized. The first thing I remember was Diana commenting on it from the red carpet of the American Music Awards. Not long after, Mary did an interview with ACCESS HOLLYWOOD and she was very upbeat about it. But as soon as she mentioned that they all were negotiating separate deals, I knew there would be trouble.

[RanRan79]

Mary's mom passed away in 1997. Still, it was recent and I don't think there's anyone alive who truly gets over losing a parent. I do believe Mary might have been in college during this time.


Wow, I didn't realize she passed then. For some reason I always think her mother died around 2002. I don't know where I got that. While I don't know what it's like to lose a parent- thank God- I've seen what it looks like, and no, you don't get over it.

[1382hitsville]

This is my first time, I believe, I get into the RTL or reunion discussion.

Firstly, compliments to all, we had several discussions for the last 20 years on this and other fora and most turned nasty and personal. This one seems to be decent and respectful, hence, I dare to give my 2 cents.

The 80's reunion, no, in my opinion it could never work. Mary was at a low point in her career, had no label and Diana was at her financial hight at RCA and was establishing her independence. A documentary, or individual interviews, yes, but after the failed Motown 25 performance I still can't see that happening. Diana is never about looking back. And there was Suzanne DePasse running things at Motown back then.

RTL, I mainly blame the tour company, AEG at that time. It started with a longer and full version of the Supremes songs, Supremes where added, Diana and Mary staid out of the financial details, until Diana wanted it and offered her own money to get Mary onboard. Of course Diana took a share of costs and income, baring the financial risk with AEG. I don't know if that was a desire / demand of Diana or AEG.

Due to circumstances, those two ladies decided to talk to each other via the media. Only to making things worse. All though it could have helped Mary's book sale.

AEG took the most financial risk, and who pays, decides. We all know Diana was not the Diana who is she now is or used to be, she had her own personal demons to deal with at that time. So did Mary.

They could have decided to move to smaller venues, but AEG decided to add a world tour and Diana said "No". Then they pulled the plug on the tour.

Remember how AEG pushed Michael Jackson later on during the "This Is It" tour? Adding dates, providing doctors to keep him going...we know how that ended. Tragic.

Where there is money to be made, ethics are gone.

I'm happy to know that the Mary and Diana shared a special bond. In their early teens they even ran away from home and lived together. They exploded to global stardom. Also the behavior of Berry is questionable during that time. With the knowledge of today I'm sure he could not get away with some of his antics. A relationship with an employee? Demanded being called "The Chairman"? Singling someone out? I have been a leader for over 20 years...and no, this is not what management school taught me.

All of this is hearsay, from books and memories. I wasn't there. And the people who where have their own recollections and motivations to remember things a certain way.

I still miss Mary. I wasn't around to be here when Flo was alive, I'm born in 1976. I take comfort in the value of that special bond. Diana was there when the worst thing that can happen to Mary did happen loosing a child, that Cindy moved in to take care of Mary. And I know Diana has a generous heart.

When people age, they either turn bitter or sour, or mellow, just like wine...What I saw in later years is the mellowing of the ladies. And it reminded me of the special bond. That no one of us can understand.

To conclude, an 80's reunion, nice fantasy, RTL, in hindsight, they should have hired a mediator that all ladies trusted to iron things out. A mediator with no strings attached to the tour promoter, or personal interests and preferences.

Now....it's all too late. Sad but true.

Hopefully Universal / Motown will honor the girls and their legacy through finally releasing the expanded editions. A well done documentary would be welcome too.

And lots of PR....

Come on, they are the most successful girl group of all time!

[Ollie9]

This is my first time, I believe, I get into the RTL or reunion discussion.

Firstly, compliments to all, we had several discussions for the last 20 years on this and other fora and most turned nasty and personal. This one seems to be decent and respectful, hence, I dare to give my 2 cents.

The 80's reunion, no, in my opinion it could never work. Mary was at a low point in her career, had no label and Diana was at her financial hight at RCA and was establishing her independence. A documentary, or individual interviews, yes, but after the failed Motown 25 performance I still can't see that happening. Diana is never about looking back. And there was Suzanne DePasse running things at Motown back then.

RTL, I mainly blame the tour company, AEG at that time. It started with a longer and full version of the Supremes songs, Supremes where added, Diana and Mary staid out of the financial details, until Diana wanted it and offered her own money to get Mary onboard. Of course Diana took a share of costs and income, baring the financial risk with AEG. I don't know if that was a desire / demand of Diana or AEG.

Due to circumstances, those two ladies decided to talk to each other via the media. Only to making things worse. All though it could have helped Mary's book sale.

AEG took the most financial risk, and who pays, decides. We all know Diana was not the Diana who is she now is or used to be, she had her own personal demons to deal with at that time. So did Mary.

They could have decided to move to smaller venues, but AEG decided to add a world tour and Diana said "No". Then they pulled the plug on the tour.

Remember how AEG pushed Michael Jackson later on during the "This Is It" tour? Adding dates, providing doctors to keep him going...we know how that ended. Tragic.

Where there is money to be made, ethics are gone.

I'm happy to know that the Mary and Diana shared a special bond. In their early teens they even ran away from home and lived together. They exploded to global stardom. Also the behavior of Berry is questionable during that time. With the knowledge of today I'm sure he could not get away with some of his antics. A relationship with an employee? Demanded being called "The Chairman"? Singling someone out? I have been a leader for over 20 years...and no, this is not what management school taught me.

All of this is hearsay, from books and memories. I wasn't there. And the people who where have their own recollections and motivations to remember things a certain way.

I still miss Mary. I wasn't around to be here when Flo was alive, I'm born in 1976. I take comfort in the value of that special bond. Diana was there when the worst thing that can happen to Mary did happen loosing a child, that Cindy moved in to take care of Mary. And I know Diana has a generous heart.

When people age, they either turn bitter or sour, or mellow, just like wine...What I saw in later years is the mellowing of the ladies. And it reminded me of the special bond. That no one of us can understand.

To conclude, an 80's reunion, nice fantasy, RTL, in hindsight, they should have hired a mediator that all ladies trusted to iron things out. A mediator with no strings attached to the tour promoter, or personal interests and preferences.

Now....it's all too late. Sad but true.

Hopefully Universal / Motown will honor the girls and their legacy through finally releasing the expanded editions. A well done documentary would be welcome too.

And lots of PR....

Come on, they are the most successful girl group of all time!

I think had Diana been a little less self focussed during rehearsals for Motown 25 with all going well, negotiations for RTL might have run a little smoother. ‘The girls will be happy with just the medley” revealed a certain mindset that clearly hadn’t really changed seventeen years later.

[RanRan79]

I think had Diana been a little less self focussed during rehearsals for Motown 25 with all going well, negotiations for RTL might have run a little smoother. ‘The girls will be happy with just the medley” revealed a certain mindset that clearly hadn’t really changed seventeen years later.

If she said that. We only have JRT's word for it. Remember that Diana was recovering from a virus for Motown 25. I can't exactly fault her for wishing to trim down the performance from four Supremes songs and "Mountain" to just "Mountain" and "Someday". And considering that she forgot the words to "Someday"- or whatever was going on with her, maybe she had to fart and realized it wasn't a fart:cool:- one Supremes song seems to have been too much. Lol

[Ollie9]

If she said that. We only have JRT's word for it. Remember that Diana was recovering from a virus for Motown 25. I can't exactly fault her for wishing to trim down the performance from four Supremes songs and "Mountain" to just "Mountain" and "Someday". And considering that she forgot the words to "Someday"- or whatever was going on with her, maybe she had to fart and realized it wasn't a fart:cool:- one Supremes song seems to have been too much. Lol

The fact Diana soldiered on with a throat infection during her tour of the UK this year puts Motown 25 into perspective.
Mary’s grievance was never just about financial gain, something Diana appeared unable to comprehend. Comments to Barbara Walters such as “I doubled the offer” and “if we had offered her the moon” are testament to this.
The stake through the heart comment of “all she had to do was turn up” was also quite revealing. The fact DR was instantly granted the rights to use the name Supremes
after all the legal battles Mary had gone through must have also stung.

[sup_fan]

we have only 2 real accounts of the behind the scenes antics at Motown 25. mary's and randy's. the CHMR account was definitely written in a manner to be as sensational as possible. frankly i have to say this puts it about 1 step above Tony Turner. it is certainly more researched than anything that queen put out but the research was compiled with a very specific and manipulative objective. from someone that claims to be a fan and love the music, group and women, this is a very problematic approach. sure randy rewrote it later in a much more balanced manner but that doesn't excuse the fact that he clearly wrote this is a goal of painting an unflattering view of DR in order to sell books. add to this that his first Diana book was quite laudatory.

anyway the point being that our info on this scene is limited and from very specific POVs.

when DMC were finally all together backstage, it was clear that the extreme lateness of the hour meant that there would be little to no time for a proper rehearsal. everyone knew this was to be a taped show for broadcast and the Sup reunion was to be the peak event of the evening. for an artist to be hesitant to perform something they might not be prepared for is only natural. what was the medley to be performed? which sup songs were included and all? Diana would have been the one singing lead and so any mix up or flub of lyrics would be on her. sure she'd been performing her own medley in her shows but we don't know that they brought over her charts. and if they did, M and C wouldn't have been familiar with how the medley went.

now did she say something as demeaning as "the girls will be happy enough..." i have no idea. if she did that's a very dismissive and inappropriate tone and approach. but if she said, there's really just no way we can do this successfully so we'll have to just do Someday" that's quite different

also M and C are just as much to blame, if we assume the story is accurate as written. why the fuck would two women, one being 38 and one being 40, just stand there like halfwits and not say "hold up bitch - i can answer for myself!" shame on them for just allowing someone to make their decisions. you're two grown women and you can't say boo about what you want in your performance? now maybe some of that has been lost to time - maybe they did try to push for more songs but the producers siad No. ok that's different. but again, we only have these two versions

[sup_fan]

in terms of the actual reunion itself on motown 25, both D and M handled things poorly. Diana couldn't have looked less enthusiastic or engaged. it's said that she was very nervous about returning to a group of people that were indifferent or even hostile towards her. that she had some very sad memories of this time. Ok i totally get and appreciate that. but she has certainly dealt with many audiences that were lukewarm or indifferent and still put on amazing shows. that's what performers do. she was also performing for Berry and for the importance of this music. she could have and should have drawn strength from that

mary clearly came into this evening with a huge chip on her shoulder and was determined to be the center of attention. her totally going off script on her speech was completely unprofessional, no matter how beautiful her delivery or how meaningful her mention of those that had passed. when in front of a live audience, you have all manners of people working to pull this off and for her to do that [[and as a performer herself) is just not acceptable. if she felt strongly about making sure Flo, Paul and others were represented, she could have found other means. also M and C contributed to the chaos on the stage. both women purposely sang very quiet during sound check so that in the performance their mics were much higher than they should be and then the issue of the choreography. i'm not criticizing them for wanting and demanding some degree of equity in the performance. but to do it in this manner is not a professional approach. it's critically important during a sound check to ensure all performance levels are appropriate. camera men need to know where people will be and where their marks are.

basically everyone involved shares the blame and the fans are the ones they hurt

[BayouMotownMan]

I'm bored so I'm actually going to participate in this RTL discussion with a viewpoint that will not be popular. I loved Mary, but have to ask, who broke her fingers so she couldn't have called Diana when she first heard rumors about a reunion? Why did she just sit back, getting more and more resentful, waiting until DR called her? When DR finally picked up the phone, Mary was nasty. These two seemed locked into old patterns from their younger years and they both should have grown up and been respectful of each other. Putting this all on Diana is not objective reality. Mary could have just called DR and asked if the rumors were true but no--she had to create drama. This whole situation could have been avoided. In the end, everybody, including the fans, lost out. Ancient history, yes, but totally avoidable.

I think I can answer this Bobby, Mary had attempted to connect with Diana many times since her first book was issued, both in person and by phone and Diana would never receive her. Mary even attempted to attend the funeral of Diana's mother and was turned away. So I'm sure that played into it.

On another level, there was just too many hard feelings for these ladies to even attempt a reunion. I think strongly that Diana Ross went thru the motions of a half-hearted attempt to include Mary in this and basically set the trap for Mary to fall in. All along Diana intended ton use Scherrie and Lynda.

[Ollie9]

in terms of the actual reunion itself on motown 25, both D and M handled things poorly. Diana couldn't have looked less enthusiastic or engaged. it's said that she was very nervous about returning to a group of people that were indifferent or even hostile towards her. that she had some very sad memories of this time. Ok i totally get and appreciate that. but she has certainly dealt with many audiences that were lukewarm or indifferent and still put on amazing shows. that's what performers do. she was also performing for Berry and for the importance of this music. she could have and should have drawn strength from that

mary clearly came into this evening with a huge chip on her shoulder and was determined to be the center of attention. her totally going off script on her speech was completely unprofessional, no matter how beautiful her delivery or how meaningful her mention of those that had passed. when in front of a live audience, you have all manners of people working to pull this off and for her to do that [[and as a performer herself) is just not acceptable. if she felt strongly about making sure Flo, Paul and others were represented, she could have found other means. also M and C contributed to the chaos on the stage. both women purposely sang very quiet during sound check so that in the performance their mics were much higher than they should be and then the issue of the choreography. i'm not criticizing them for wanting and demanding some degree of equity in the performance. but to do it in this manner is not a professional approach. it's critically important during a sound check to ensure all performance levels are appropriate. camera men need to know where people will be and where their marks are.

basically everyone involved shares the blame and the fans are the ones they hurt

For the greatest girl group of all time to be represented by one song only was a disgrace. The reason for that has to be laid at Diana’s feet. I would imagine both Mary and Cindy voiced their disapproval, and were plainly informed M’s Ross has decided.
It’s also worth noting it was Diana not Mary who crossed professional boundaries by man handling another artist. Mary’s antics being small fry in comparison, with the audience none the wiser.

[RanRan79]

I think I can answer this Bobby, Mary had attempted to connect with Diana many times since her first book was issued, both in person and by phone and Diana would never receive her. Mary even attempted to attend the funeral of Diana's mother and was turned away. So I'm sure that played into it.

On another level, there was just too many hard feelings for these ladies to even attempt a reunion. I think strongly that Diana Ross went thru the motions of a half-hearted attempt to include Mary in this and basically set the trap for Mary to fall in. All along Diana intended ton use Scherrie and Lynda.

Diana's mother died about two years before Mary's book came out. I find it hard to believe that Diana would go so far as to bar Mary from Mrs. Ross' funeral in 1984. I find it even harder to believe that Mary wouldn't have included that slight in her second book.

[RanRan79]

For the greatest girl group of all time to be represented by one song only was a disgrace. The reason for that has to be laid at Diana’s feet. I would imagine both Mary and Cindy voiced their disapproval, and were plainly informed M’s Ross has decided.


I agree it's a disgrace, but again, Diana was still ill. Who knows how she was feeling during rehearsal. I know how it is to feel sick and a few hours later feel better but still not 100 percent. Had "Someday We'll Be Together" been performed in full without any of the drama that occurred, I don't think anyone would have batted an eye. I think it's the fact that we really only get maybe 30 seconds of the Supremes that really makes the whole affair ridiculous.

[RanRan79]

It’s also worth noting it was Diana not Mary who crossed professional boundaries by man handling another artist. Mary’s antics being small fry in comparison, with the audience none the wiser.

Yeah, Mary's speech didn't even air, and it's not like Mary and Cindy were drowning out Diana while singing. Nothing, and I do mean absolutely nothing, Mary did that night was anywhere near as bad as Diana shoving her, pushing her mic down, or the fact that Diana went out on stage during Adam Ant's performance. Had another entertainer done that to Diana, she would have flipped.

IMO the worst thing Mary did that night was call out to Berry to come on down. She knew that wasn't her place and I don't believe for a moment that she was caught up in the moment. I think she decided she was going to be the one to call him on stage and that was that. But even that lack of professionalism wasn't anything close to the antics Diana pulled with Mary and Adam Ant.

[marybrewster]

in terms of the actual reunion itself on motown 25, both D and M handled things poorly. Diana couldn't have looked less enthusiastic or engaged. it's said that she was very nervous about returning to a group of people that were indifferent or even hostile towards her. that she had some very sad memories of this time. Ok i totally get and appreciate that. but she has certainly dealt with many audiences that were lukewarm or indifferent and still put on amazing shows. that's what performers do. she was also performing for Berry and for the importance of this music. she could have and should have drawn strength from that

mary clearly came into this evening with a huge chip on her shoulder and was determined to be the center of attention. her totally going off script on her speech was completely unprofessional, no matter how beautiful her delivery or how meaningful her mention of those that had passed. when in front of a live audience, you have all manners of people working to pull this off and for her to do that [[and as a performer herself) is just not acceptable. if she felt strongly about making sure Flo, Paul and others were represented, she could have found other means. also M and C contributed to the chaos on the stage. both women purposely sang very quiet during sound check so that in the performance their mics were much higher than they should be and then the issue of the choreography. i'm not criticizing them for wanting and demanding some degree of equity in the performance. but to do it in this manner is not a professional approach. it's critically important during a sound check to ensure all performance levels are appropriate. camera men need to know where people will be and where their marks are.

basically everyone involved shares the blame and the fans are the ones they hurt

What accounts do we have of Mary's speech and her going off script?

[marybrewster]

"everyone knew this was to be a taped show for broadcast and the Sup reunion was to be the peak event of the evening. for an artist to be hesitant to perform something they might not be prepared for is only natural. what was the medley to be performed? which sup songs were included and all? Diana would have been the one singing lead and so any mix up or flub of lyrics would be on her. sure she'd been performing her own medley in her shows but we don't know that they brought over her charts. and if they did, M and C wouldn't have been familiar with how the medley went."

Diana had flubbed lines all through the DRATS era, and she covered them skillfully, with the support of Mary and Cindy. It's true that M and C may have not known the exact medley that was being presented that night, but I think both were capable enough at the time to figure out where the ooohs and the baby baby's went.

[reese]

"everyone knew this was to be a taped show for broadcast and the Sup reunion was to be the peak event of the evening. for an artist to be hesitant to perform something they might not be prepared for is only natural. what was the medley to be performed? which sup songs were included and all? Diana would have been the one singing lead and so any mix up or flub of lyrics would be on her. sure she'd been performing her own medley in her shows but we don't know that they brought over her charts. and if they did, M and C wouldn't have been familiar with how the medley went."

Diana had flubbed lines all through the DRATS era, and she covered them skillfully, with the support of Mary and Cindy. It's true that M and C may have not known the exact medley that was being presented that night, but I think both were capable enough at the time to figure out where the ooohs and the baby baby's went.

From what I've read, DMC only had a rather brief period to rehearse the Supremes' segment before the audience was to be let in for the show. I would like to think those old lyrics would have kicked in but who knows for sure?

[reese]

What accounts do we have of Mary's speech and her going off script?

In SUPREME FAITH, Mary wrote that she felt the text she was given was "self-serving" and she wrote her own. There were things she felt ought to be said and she was going to say them.

[bradsupremes]

in terms of the actual reunion itself on motown 25, both D and M handled things poorly. Diana couldn't have looked less enthusiastic or engaged. it's said that she was very nervous about returning to a group of people that were indifferent or even hostile towards her. that she had some very sad memories of this time. Ok i totally get and appreciate that. but she has certainly dealt with many audiences that were lukewarm or indifferent and still put on amazing shows. that's what performers do. she was also performing for Berry and for the importance of this music. she could have and should have drawn strength from that

mary clearly came into this evening with a huge chip on her shoulder and was determined to be the center of attention. her totally going off script on her speech was completely unprofessional, no matter how beautiful her delivery or how meaningful her mention of those that had passed. when in front of a live audience, you have all manners of people working to pull this off and for her to do that [[and as a performer herself) is just not acceptable. if she felt strongly about making sure Flo, Paul and others were represented, she could have found other means. also M and C contributed to the chaos on the stage. both women purposely sang very quiet during sound check so that in the performance their mics were much higher than they should be and then the issue of the choreography. i'm not criticizing them for wanting and demanding some degree of equity in the performance. but to do it in this manner is not a professional approach. it's critically important during a sound check to ensure all performance levels are appropriate. camera men need to know where people will be and where their marks are.

basically everyone involved shares the blame and the fans are the ones they hurt

I have seen the clip of her and Cindy. Yes, Mary did go off script to highlight the Motown artists no longer around but honestly if I didn't know that it was off script I would have never known. It was genuine and the audience appreciated the acknowledgments with applause. Honestly it was no different from any awards show you see where a celebrity goes off prompter to say a few words. Unlike live shows, a taped event like this is always going to film more than what is needed/can fit in the aired show. It's not like Mary gave an impromptu performance of "Red Hot" and then stood on stage for 10 minutes talking about how she can't get a record deal. It was a minute or two to say a few words about her fellow Motown family who had passed away and then she and Cindy went back to the teleprompter. Clearly Suzanne didn't reserve any sort of segment for the Motown folks who died. To call what Mary did as unprofessional is an overreach.

Now, running on stage while someone else is performing without them knowing and stealing the spotlight... that's unprofessional.

[sup_fan]

I have seen the clip of her and Cindy. Yes, Mary did go off script to highlight the Motown artists no longer around but honestly if I didn't know that it was off script I would have never known. It was genuine and the audience appreciated the acknowledgments with applause. Honestly it was no different from any awards show you see where a celebrity goes off prompter to say a few words. Unlike live shows, a taped event like this is always going to film more than what is needed/can fit in the aired show. It's not like Mary gave an impromptu performance of "Red Hot" and then stood on stage for 10 minutes talking about how she can't get a record deal. It was a minute or two to say a few words about her fellow Motown family who had passed away and then she and Cindy went back to the teleprompter. Clearly Suzanne didn't reserve any sort of segment for the Motown folks who died. To call what Mary did as unprofessional is an overreach.

Now, running on stage while someone else is performing without them knowing and stealing the spotlight... that's unprofessional.

totally agree about diana going on stage during Adam's performance. that was very unprofessional. and adds to her list of bad behavior that evening

as for the speech, my problem isn't that it was warm and heartfelt or that she mentioned people who deserved recognition. the overall production staff was trying to coordinate, manage and organize a wildly huge event. so many performers, so many egos, so many performances, etc. there were 10,000 moving parts to keep track of. It's not Suzanne i'm worried about - frankly who cares about her. it's the zillions of people doing the everyday roles within such a complex production. what's she going to say - where is she getting this - what if she starts to stumble and sputter - what if she goes on for 10 mins - what's supposed to be the next act, do we just go ahead and start them up?

that's what was unprofessional about her action. this wasn't her first time on a stage. she certainly understands the million moving parts for a complex show.

[sup_fan]

What accounts do we have of Mary's speech and her going off script?

i'm just going off of mary own comments in her book. she said something along the lines of feeling the script she was given was self serving and decided she was going to say some things that needed to be said. I don't have a copy of what she said or what she was given

[sup_fan]

Yeah, Mary's speech didn't even air, and it's not like Mary and Cindy were drowning out Diana while singing. Nothing, and I do mean absolutely nothing, Mary did that night was anywhere near as bad as Diana shoving her, pushing her mic down, or the fact that Diana went out on stage during Adam Ant's performance. Had another entertainer done that to Diana, she would have flipped.

IMO the worst thing Mary did that night was call out to Berry to come on down. She knew that wasn't her place and I don't believe for a moment that she was caught up in the moment. I think she decided she was going to be the one to call him on stage and that was that. But even that lack of professionalism wasn't anything close to the antics Diana pulled with Mary and Adam Ant.

the whole "push" thing is open to debate too. i've not seen any footage or images of it.

According to mary's book it was like mary was tossed across the stage like a rag doll.

According to CHMR is was a definite shove and so noticeable that the audience gasped and every performing watching backstage froze in place

According to some interviews with Suzanne, it wasn't a monstrous throw but more of a "just stop" movement of diana's hand on mary's shoulder

according to randy's later book, it was a light push not a huge shove across the stage

in any event, it certainly didn't look good on diana. to make some sort of contact with another performer like this, is absolutely unprofessional too. just as it was unprofessional for mary to ignore their planned staging. what probably would have been better would have been diana to say to herself "ok M and C are going to stand by my. rather then push her back, why don't i just wrap my arm around her shoulder and pull her in next to me and Cindy too. let's just huddle up as great friends and sing together"

and then there's also the poor decision for mary to just take over the lead singing. she says in her book that it seemed as though diana forgot the lyrics and mary jumped in. did she jump in to just sing a line and then toss it back to diana? was she still stepping forward and just, literally , stepped forward ahead of her and started singing the lead? did diana forget the lyrics? did diana simply stop singing because mary was usurping the lead and it would have been crazy to have them both singing lead on top of one another?

in the broadcast, you can see after the cut that mary is actually standing forward of diana, dancing and singing lead. diana is a pace or two behind and reintroduces them "this is mary wilson and that's cindy birdsong" then smokey walks on and you head diana call out "smokey robinson!"

[bradsupremes]

totally agree about diana going on stage during Adam's performance. that was very unprofessional. and adds to her list of bad behavior that evening

as for the speech, my problem isn't that it was warm and heartfelt or that she mentioned people who deserved recognition. the overall production staff was trying to coordinate, manage and organize a wildly huge event. so many performers, so many egos, so many performances, etc. there were 10,000 moving parts to keep track of. It's not Suzanne i'm worried about - frankly who cares about her. it's the zillions of people doing the everyday roles within such a complex production. what's she going to say - where is she getting this - what if she starts to stumble and sputter - what if she goes on for 10 mins - what's supposed to be the next act, do we just go ahead and start them up?

that's what was unprofessional about her action. this wasn't her first time on a stage. she certainly understands the million moving parts for a complex show.

That’s why it was taped. You can cut stuff that doesn’t go right and if you need to redo it again, you redo it. Look at how long Diana’s VH1 Divas special took to film. They had to go back and redo segments because of issues with sound/production, people weren’t ready, etc. It’s why it’s not a live show. They can edit and remove the messy parts to make everything look perfect for broadcast. The people working on Motown 25 were veteran industry folks. This wasn’t their first rodeo. I’m sure all of the crew had been through situations before where someone strayed from the script MANY times. You just keep rolling and if you adjust, you adjust.

She strayed from the script for a minute to make a heartfelt tribute. That’s all. Did it mess up the flow of the show? Not likely enough to cause panic. Did it rise to level of unprofessionalism you think it is? No. This was an ant hill moment, not a mountain.

[bradsupremes]

and then there's also the poor decision for mary to just take over the lead singing. she says in her book that it seemed as though diana forgot the lyrics and mary jumped in. did she jump in to just sing a line and then toss it back to diana? was she still stepping forward and just, literally , stepped forward ahead of her and started singing the lead? did diana forget the lyrics? did diana simply stop singing because mary was usurping the lead and it would have been crazy to have them both singing lead on top of one another?

in the broadcast, you can see after the cut that mary is actually standing forward of diana, dancing and singing lead. diana is a pace or two behind and reintroduces them "this is mary wilson and that's cindy birdsong" then smokey walks on and you head diana call out "smokey robinson!"

If you watch, Diana stops singing the lead after introducing Mary & Cindy. She just stands there and does this swaying dance with her arms. Mary picks up the lead to fill the silence. Maybe Diana forgot the lead. Who knows. After singing just one line, Mary does turn to Diana and motions to her as if saying “back to you, pick up the lead.” You can see her literally toss it back to her. Instead, Diana shouts out Smokey’s name as he appears and then from there on out it’s just everyone singing the chorus.

[marybrewster]

I caught that "toss back" from Day 1. I think I might have even mentioned it to you Brad. If you watch closely, you'll see it. Diana starts singing, Mary picks up, then gives a hand gesture to send it back to Diana. Diana instead does "the robot" and calls for Smokey to save the day. I've always gotten a kick out of his expression; look at his eyes. I can only imagine what he was thinking.

[marybrewster]

From what I've read, DMC only had a rather brief period to rehearse the Supremes' segment before the audience was to be let in for the show. I would like to think those old lyrics would have kicked in but who knows for sure?

That could very well be, at least for Cindy. I don't think in 1983 she'd been doing much singing. I seem to recall hearing that she actually had to borrow a dress for the occasion, or maybe someone bought it for her? Was it Claudette? I think as far as Mary, she'd been singing those oohs and aaahs for decades. I'm sure she could have pulled just about anything off. Except maybe Diana's wig. ;)

[RanRan79]

If you watch, Diana stops singing the lead after introducing Mary & Cindy. She just stands there and does this swaying dance with her arms. Mary picks up the lead to fill the silence. Maybe Diana forgot the lead. Who knows. After singing just one line, Mary does turn to Diana and motions to her as if saying “back to you, pick up the lead.” You can see her literally toss it back to her. Instead, Diana shouts out Smokey’s name as he appears and then from there on out it’s just everyone singing the chorus.

Yup, I've pointed that out a zillion times when the subject comes up. Clearly Sup refuses to pay attention to me when I'm talking Motown 25.:p

One day the entire footage of the Supremes reunion is going to surface, I can almost guarantee it. That is, of course, if it hadn't immediately been destroyed.:cool:

[RanRan79]

I caught that "toss back" from Day 1. I think I might have even mentioned it to you Brad. If you watch closely, you'll see it. Diana starts singing, Mary picks up, then gives a hand gesture to send it back to Diana. Diana instead does "the robot" and calls for Smokey to save the day. I've always gotten a kick out of his expression; look at his eyes. I can only imagine what he was thinking.

From that walk/dance thing he does on the way, he probably didn't want to be anywhere near the shit show. His eyes definitely tell the story, not the grin.

It's really a shame that Diana allowed herself to act so stupid that night. Not only did it prematurely end the Supremes reunion, but it gave her Motown peers the opportunity to say "Uh huh, she aint changed a bit". She played right into the perception they had of her. JRT certainly sensationalized CHMR, but I can believe that when she pointed out that it was her birthday, barely anybody bothered to act as if they cared.

This wasn't the first time that the public got wind that Diana could be a real trip, she had long established that reputation, but this is probably the first time there was any real confirmation beyond gossip, and might be the first time her reputation took a serious hit. She weathered it, but then Dreamgirl came a couple years later. Looking back, I wonder if Diana would have weathered that better if she had dealt with the book with Mary and then not distanced herself from her.

[Ollie9]

In many ways 1983 certainly proved Diana’s anus horribilis.
1. The drama and bad publicity surrounding Motown 25.
2. The debacle regarding the Central Park playground.
3. The infamous letter and thoughtless sacking of a large number of her staff.
4, The dismal failure of ross 83.
Things could only get better.....

[Spreadinglove21]

Diana Ross at times seemed aware of the negative side of her public image, that of being a self absorbed diva bitch who only cares about herself, but some of her actions in 80s and during late 90s/early 00's shows she never took that into consideration when making career decisions. She seems to be someone who rather shut out all negativity and deal with what she considers "positive" matters but such a mindset can become its own trap when enough negative things happen and you don't have the coping skills to deal with them as denial is not a great long term coping mechanism or stragety. Hence her slide into alcoholism around the time of RTL and its aftermath. Between Arne dumping her for a younger woman, and the glee many in the public felt with the failure of RTL feeling she had a long overdue comeuppance owed her, it may have been quite a shock to her. And she turned to booze to medicate. AT least that drunk driving arrest and efforts by her family finally woke her up to face her personal problems and addiction and she put in the work to get her life back in order.

[reese]

That’s why it was taped. You can cut stuff that doesn’t go right and if you need to redo it again, you redo it. Look at how long Diana’s VH1 Divas special took to film. They had to go back and redo segments because of issues with sound/production, people weren’t ready, etc. It’s why it’s not a live show. They can edit and remove the messy parts to make everything look perfect for broadcast. The people working on Motown 25 were veteran industry folks. This wasn’t their first rodeo. I’m sure all of the crew had been through situations before where someone strayed from the script MANY times. You just keep rolling and if you adjust, you adjust.

She strayed from the script for a minute to make a heartfelt tribute. That’s all. Did it mess up the flow of the show? Not likely enough to cause panic. Did it rise to level of unprofessionalism you think it is? No. This was an ant hill moment, not a mountain.

I haven't seen the footage of the speech. More than likely, it wasn't any text that would have been bad to air. In all honesty, Mary and Cindy's speech probably wouldn't have aired anyway. But supposedly the act alone was enough to ban Mary from any future Motown productions helmed by dePasse.

That said, as someone who worked in television for many years, I know that preparation is key although you should expect the unexpected. But if you know there's someone who could stray from the prepared, it isn't surprising if you wouldn't want to work with them again.

[jim aka jtigre99]

I haven't seen the footage of the speech. More than likely, it wasn't any text that would have been bad to air. In all honesty, Mary and Cindy's speech probably wouldn't have aired anyway. But supposedly the act alone was enough to ban Mary from any future Motown productions helmed by dePass

That said, as someone who worked in television for many years, I know that preparation is key although you should expect the unexpected. But if you know there's someone who could stray from the prepared, it isn't surprising if you wouldn't want to work with them again.
Yet, De Passe still worked with Diana, who jumped onstage with Adam Ant in a breech of professionalism, who pushed someone aside, who pushed a microphone away from someone. who stopped singing in the middle of a song, someone who showed up late and didn't rehearse the 4 songs for the "big reunion" moment and decided that the "girls" would be "happy" with one song. I think their friendship had Suzanne overlook that and take sides with Diana during this friction. Yes, Mary sang low so her microphone wouldn't be turned down so low as to be inaudible, she did add her own words during a scripted moment and wore a red dress for the "reunion" instead of black, white or silver. Mary took over the lead when Diana stopped singing and I have always noted on the tape that Mary seems to nod to Diana with her hand extended like she was trying to hand the lead back over to her if she was ready and Diana continued to just speak instead. They both were not doing what they should have but Mary being singled out seems to be a continuation of the indignities she faced for many years from the hands of Motown. She was not a perfect human being, but obviously the relationship of someone who you considered a friend who was definitely only always thinking of themselves and another who would respond with a passive aggressive defense would mean there were two parties to blame and it shouldn't always be the one who has to put up with the others ego constantly.

[Ollie9]

I can’t imagine it’s that rare an event for a performer to stay slightly off script. I also can’t imagine that would lead to them being blacklisted.
I wonder what would have happened if Smokey hadn’t been sent out on a rescue mission?. Would they have finished the song or would Diana have made her exit stage left leaving Mary and Cindy to continue the song alone?. One would hope a modicum of professional respect would be maintained....But who knows?.

[1382hitsville]

[QUOTE=reese;727607]I haven't seen the footage of the speech. More than likely, it wasn't any text that would have been bad to air. In all honesty, Mary and Cindy's speech probably wouldn't have aired anyway. But supposedly the act alone was enough to ban Mary from any future Motown productions helmed by dePasse.

Suzanne did work later on with Mary on Motown 40:

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0142043/

[RanRan79]

In many ways 1983 certainly proved Diana’s anus horribilis.
1. The drama and bad publicity surrounding Motown 25.
2. The debacle regarding the Central Park playground.
3. The infamous letter and thoughtless sacking of a large number of her staff.
4, The dismal failure of ross 83.
Things could only get better.....

I think Central Park ultimately ended up being the thing that allowed her to weather her antics at Motown 25. That iconic performance became the thing that people talked about, not the failed Supremes reunion. After that, she goes on to release two or three big singles, including a #1 hit, and a platinum album. [[I think Swept Away went platinum, if not, it went gold.)

I've never bought into the thought that Diana's career tanked because of Dreamgirl. I'll always believe that the lack of good music did Diana in. But there is no denying that her reputation suffered a huge hit by Mary's book. Diana just couldn't [[or wouldn't) do much to take the bad taste out of people's mouths. [[Even though I also still hold the opinion that Mary's book wasn't as bad as some folks make it out to be. Most of Mary's digs are petty criticisms and recollections that prove Diana wasn't perfect. Very little of it proves that Diana was evil.)

[RanRan79]

Diana Ross at times seemed aware of the negative side of her public image, that of being a self absorbed diva bitch who only cares about herself, but some of her actions in 80s and during late 90s/early 00's shows she never took that into consideration when making career decisions. She seems to be someone who rather shut out all negativity and deal with what she considers "positive" matters but such a mindset can become its own trap when enough negative things happen and you don't have the coping skills to deal with them as denial is not a great long term coping mechanism or stragety. Hence her slide into alcoholism around the time of RTL and its aftermath. Between Arne dumping her for a younger woman, and the glee many in the public felt with the failure of RTL feeling she had a long overdue comeuppance owed her, it may have been quite a shock to her. And she turned to booze to medicate. AT least that drunk driving arrest and efforts by her family finally woke her up to face her personal problems and addiction and she put in the work to get her life back in order.

Agreed. I don't think I've ever pondered it that way, that Diana used denial as a way to cope. I really think it's a shame that her second book didn't see the light of day. I've heard that freshly sober people can often see things about themselves- and the people around them- in a new light. I wonder if Diana was able to reconcile the part of her life that is Diana Ross, glamorous superstar singer, once in a century entertainer, with Diane Ross, scrappy, bitchy, insecure, self centered, around the way girl.

Did she look back and suddenly understand any bad feelings she might have left Mary with? Did she look back and suddenly understand how Flo's emotional issues could manifest itself? Diana always did a lot of talk about not understanding Florence. Since she and Flo are officially in the same club [[alcoholics), does she get it now? Maybe the second book addressed that. She sure as hell hasn't said a word about it publicly.

I wonder if her plan is to have the book released after her death. That seems like a Diana thing to do.

[jim aka jtigre99]

I think Central Park ultimately ended up being the thing that allowed her to weather her antics at Motown 25. That iconic performance became the thing that people talked about, not the failed Supremes reunion. After that, she goes on to release two or three big singles, including a #1 hit, and a platinum album. [[I think Swept Away went platinum, if not, it went gold.)

I've never bought into the thought that Diana's career tanked because of Dreamgirl. I'll always believe that the lack of good music did Diana in. But there is no denying that her reputation suffered a huge hit by Mary's book. Diana just couldn't [[or wouldn't) do much to take the bad taste out of people's mouths. [[Even though I also still hold the opinion that Mary's book wasn't as bad as some folks make it out to be. Most of Mary's digs are petty criticisms and recollections that prove Diana wasn't perfect. Very little of it proves that Diana was evil.)
Mary's book did not derail Diana's career, lack of good music during that time did. Diana had a huge legion of fans and the general public was still buying her music until the songs were no longer what they wanted. Dreamgirl did not show Diana as Diana Dearest, it showed her imperfections but Mary also included Flo's imperfections as well as her own. On Talk shows Mary always stated she never could dislike or hate anyone she had shared such a miracle with. She also would state that the boss had chosen her and she went for it and that she didn't even consider Flo or Mary because she was going after hers [[which is how the book also came off to me). Mary said that Diana thought that they were taking care of themselves and that nothing that was done was actually malicious AGAINST them but that it still did hurt. We have seen many celebrities do actual malicious things and get dragged through the press but if they have a good product, the public seems to forgive them. I liked Mary's book because it showed them all as real human beings and I ended up liking all of them more because now they were human as well as celebrities.

[BobbyC]

Well now I guess is the time for me to tell you guys something. I had a friend named Dave who worked at RCA in the 80's, during Diana's reign. He told me that DR was so demanding and nasty that after a few months no one wanted to work with her anymore. She threw tantrums, screamed at people-- if she felt like every single person wasn't performing for her at 100% capacity. Dave couldn't stand her and neither could anyone else at the company. She apparently thought she was still at Motown and could pull that kind of crap. Diana's bad attitude was the reason her career at RCA died rather quickly. So RCA took their resources and put them totally behind Hall and Oates, who were more consistent hit-makers anyway. DR did this to herself.

[Ollie9]

Well now I guess is the time for me to tell you guys something. I had a friend named Dave who worked at RCA in the 80's, during Diana's reign. He told me that DR was so demanding and nasty that after a few months no one wanted to work with her anymore. She threw tantrums, screamed at people-- if she felt like every single person wasn't performing for her at 100% capacity. Dave couldn't stand her and neither could anyone else at the company. She apparently thought she was still at Motown and could pull that kind of crap. Diana's bad attitude was the reason her career at RCA died rather quickly. So RCA took their resources and put them totally behind Hall and Oates, who were more consistent hit-makers anyway. DR did this to herself.

Thanks for sharing Bobby. I also have met people that told me how nasty she can be. The only experience i personally have had is when i witnessed her screaming at children in a London park close to where i use to live. This was during the 90’s.
I’m sure she is a much different person now, and as we know has had her moments of generosity. I think with Diana it all depends on the day and how she is feeling.

[reese]

Yet, De Passe still worked with Diana, who jumped onstage with Adam Ant in a breech of professionalism, who pushed someone aside, who pushed a microphone away from someone. who stopped singing in the middle of a song, someone who showed up late and didn't rehearse the 4 songs for the "big reunion" moment and decided that the "girls" would be "happy" with one song. I think their friendship had Suzanne overlook that and take sides with Diana during this friction. Yes, Mary sang low so her microphone wouldn't be turned down so low as to be inaudible, she did add her own words during a scripted moment and wore a red dress for the "reunion" instead of black, white or silver. Mary took over the lead when Diana stopped singing and I have always noted on the tape that Mary seems to nod to Diana with her hand extended like she was trying to hand the lead back over to her if she was ready and Diana continued to just speak instead. They both were not doing what they should have but Mary being singled out seems to be a continuation of the indignities she faced for many years from the hands of Motown. She was not a perfect human being, but obviously the relationship of someone who you considered a friend who was definitely only always thinking of themselves and another who would respond with a passive aggressive defense would mean there were two parties to blame and it shouldn't always be the one who has to put up with the others ego constantly.

Right or wrong, some people will make allowances for the behavior of superstars if it benefits their project. Unfortunately, Mary didn't have that status and even commented herself that she wasn't invited to the next Motown special [[the Apollo) because of her "behavior" at MOTOWN 25.

[reese]

Suzanne did work later on with Mary on Motown 40:

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0142043/

As I remember, the new interview footage of Mary included in MOTOWN 40 wasn't done specifically for that project. It was obtained from another source. I vaguely recall the fan club mentioning that Mary wasn't pleased with its use.

[Spreadinglove21]

As I remember, the new interview footage of Mary included in MOTOWN 40 wasn't done specifically for that project. It was obtained from another source. I vaguely recall the fan club mentioning that Mary wasn't pleased with its use.

I'm sure main reason why Mary wasn't pleased was because she didn't get paid, only the owner of the archival footage.

[1382hitsville]

I just checked something that crossed my mind. Mary and Cindy performed at Motown 45.


https://youtu.be/8CWgPZfAiNw

However, Suzanne DePasse was not involved, while I always assumed the was / is involved everything Motown TV or film related.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0388283/fullcredits

After watching the clip its sadly to think this was the last time Cindy performed. Or did she perform later on?

And what a trooper Mary was, remember the stroke she had jus before this taping?

Too many people to miss.....

[jim aka jtigre99]

It was sad that the last time Mary and Cindy performed together was at Motown 45. They were with Kelly Rowland so it wasn't 3 actual Supremes. Suzanne said she would never have Mary on a show she produced again. Cindy hadn't really performed in quite some time. Yes, Mary did suffer a stroke before this taping and still went on. Mary did not offer her illness as an excuse for anything, even though I remember reading some rude comments at the time that her health issues showed up at "convenient" times. I cannot tell you how angry such comments made me feel. Mary was always an entertainer and a trooper despite Motown's treatment of her she still went on and still championed the group until her dying day.

[Spreadinglove21]

I recall reading that at Motown 45 rehearsal and taping Mary went ballistic when she heard that Cindy was going to be introduced as an "original Supreme" and Mary demanded and got a re-write to have Cindy introduced as "former Supreme" with only Mary getting "original" tag. Ok, I get it. But then Mary proceed to viciously cuss out Cindy to the point where Cindy was in tears because of this matter. Maybe Mary wasn't in her right mind due to her health episode, but if Diana Ross can be called a bitch for some of her abusive behavior and actions over the years, then it's fair to call Mary a bitch for such conduct.

[Ollie9]

Mary was always an entertainer and a trooper despite Motown's treatment of her she still went on and still championed the group until her dying day.

I totally agree Jim. I have never met Mary, but have been told so many wonderful stories over the years regarding her professionalism and generosity of spirit that i almost feel I have.
It was wonderful reading the multitude of glowing tributes from entertainers and friends all over the world who were lucky enough to have known her.

[bradsupremes]

I recall reading that at Motown 45 rehearsal and taping Mary went ballistic when she heard that Cindy was going to be introduced as an "original Supreme" and Mary demanded and got a re-write to have Cindy introduced as "former Supreme" with only Mary getting "original" tag. Ok, I get it. But then Mary proceed to viciously cuss out Cindy to the point where Cindy was in tears because of this matter. Maybe Mary wasn't in her right mind due to her health episode, but if Diana Ross can be called a bitch for some of her abusive behavior and actions over the years, then it's fair to call Mary a bitch for such conduct.

This unfortunately did happen. Not making an excuse for her, but she was on medication at this time following her illness and that affected her. I know vocally she wasn't her best.

[RanRan79]

This unfortunately did happen. Not making an excuse for her, but she was on medication at this time following her illness and that affected her. I know vocally she wasn't her best.

If that's true, it had to be the medication. Mary does not have that reputation. I can understand her wanting to make sure "original" status wasn't granted to anyone other than the actual originals, but to go off on Cindy? For what purpose? Was Cindy campaigning to be called an original Supreme? I find that doubtful. Of course Mary is no saint, and I'm sure no stranger to cussing people out, but this story just doesn't sound characteristic of her where Cindy is concerned. I've known people who were on certain medications and they became like different people. I'm inclined to believe it was the medicine.

[sup_fan]

Well now I guess is the time for me to tell you guys something. I had a friend named Dave who worked at RCA in the 80's, during Diana's reign. He told me that DR was so demanding and nasty that after a few months no one wanted to work with her anymore. She threw tantrums, screamed at people-- if she felt like every single person wasn't performing for her at 100% capacity. Dave couldn't stand her and neither could anyone else at the company. She apparently thought she was still at Motown and could pull that kind of crap. Diana's bad attitude was the reason her career at RCA died rather quickly. So RCA took their resources and put them totally behind Hall and Oates, who were more consistent hit-makers anyway. DR did this to herself.

i've also heard that she could be wildly demanding and a very harsh boss. i think part of this was her training - motown was NOT a lovely sweet and friendly place. from what i've heard berry managerial style was merciless. not just his cruel notes to the girls on their performances but the actual way the offices at motown were run. extremely high pressure to perform, overly critical, ruthless competition.

on top of this, she was on her own now and absolutely determined to prove that her decision to leave motown was a good one. she's a perfectionist and demands perfection in her presence.

i get the sense that the president of RCA woo'd her to the label in order to score a huge signing. then RCA basically placated her with the first 2 albums which sold but were not the kinds of artistic statements she should have been making. especially SE. she was clearly just going through the motions with her recording career and focusing elsewhere and the showed in the quality of the music she was turning in to the label.

the label paid a HUGE amount for her and probably assumed they'd get an immediate pay-off similar to the diana 80 project. that album and the singles sold millions and millions. RCA was going to need a few of those in order to get the return on their investment. and after several albums, it was probably clear the mega record wasn't going to happen

and then the leadership changed. the new RCA president started to cut singers and acts that were too expensive. i'd guess that once he saw the sales data for DR and heard of her difficult behavior, he was through with her.

[BobbyC]

If I'm remembering this correctly, Dave said signing Ross was a "trophy signing." She was signed to give RCA clout because she was a huge name at the time, even though her record sales were sporadic. Another label signed Bob Dylan for this same reason, as his records weren't huge sellers. It's all about prestige and clout.

[daviddh]

i never understood ,really , why on motown 45, they didnt have Jean or Scherrie , or really all the ladies come and sing a few of the hits
Mary could sing lead on the 60s songs and Jean could do her own hits with the group.

[Ollie9]

i've also heard that she could be wildly demanding and a very harsh boss.
She’s a perfectionist and demands perfection in her presence. .

From everything I've ever read, Hitler shared the same kind of ethic.

[marybrewster]

i never understood ,really , why on motown 45, they didnt have Jean or Scherrie , or really all the ladies come and sing a few of the hits
Mary could sing lead on the 60s songs and Jean could do her own hits with the group.

From what I recall, at least Scherrie was in the audience that night. Not sure about the other ladies. I'm sure Kelly was added as a "name" and to draw in a younger audience.

[reese]

From what I recall, at least Scherrie was in the audience that night. Not sure about the other ladies. I'm sure Kelly was added as a "name" and to draw in a younger audience.

More and more that seems to be the case when these specials are produced. On MOTOWN 45, there were other duets on the show that paired a legendary Motown artist with someone younger. Jermaine Jackson sang with Nick Lachey, Lionel Richie sang with Kelly Rowland, Smokey and Joss Stone, and my favorite spot, Gladys Knight using Cedric the Entertainer, Joey Fatone, and George Lopez as her Pips.

[Spreadinglove21]

More and more that seems to be the case when these specials are produced. On MOTOWN 45, there were other duets on the show that paired a legendary Motown artist with someone younger. Jermaine Jackson sang with Nick Lachey, Lionel Richie sang with Kelly Rowland, Smokey and Joss Stone, and my favorite spot, Gladys Knight using Cedric the Entertainer, Joey Fatone, and George Lopez as her Pips.

Given who they got, the special had a very B list quality to it, sad to say. Kelly Rowland, not Beyonce. Joey Fatone, not Justin Timberlake. Nick Lashey, not Usher. Joss Stone, not Amy Winehouse, etc.

[marybrewster]

Given who they got, the special had a very B list quality to it, sad to say. Kelly Rowland, not Beyonce. Joey Fatone, not Justin Timberlake. Nick Lashey, not Usher. Joss Stone, not Amy Winehouse, etc.

Although in 2004, Beyonce' wasn't quite yet BEYONCE'. Kelly [[with Nelly) had a HUGE single with #1's pretty much across the board. At the same period, Bey had only 2 #1's under her belt. So I wouldn't quite say she was B list. In 2014, that's a different story.

To me though, it would have made more sense to have Beyonce' as a "replacement" for Diana, since she was the lead of D3. Having Kelly just seemed like having 2 Mary's.

[sup_fan]

Although in 2004, Beyonce' wasn't quite yet BEYONCE'. Kelly [[with Nelly) had a HUGE single with #1's pretty much across the board. At the same period, Bey had only 2 #1's under her belt. So I wouldn't quite say she was B list. In 2014, that's a different story.

To me though, it would have made more sense to have Beyonce' as a "replacement" for Diana, since she was the lead of D3. Having Kelly just seemed like having 2 Mary's.

actually i would have been cute to have Destiny's Child there as a trio, singing a tribute to the motown girl groups. a hits medley of songs from various groups. and then have Mary, Cindy, Martha, Annette, and others join them in a celebration of the girls of motown

[reese]

actually i would have been cute to have Destiny's Child there as a trio, singing a tribute to the motown girl groups. a hits medley of songs from various groups. and then have Mary, Cindy, Martha, Annette, and others join them in a celebration of the girls of motown

That is a cool idea. Martha and her sisters did perform at MOTOWN 45 but their performance was edited out.

[sup_fan]

yeah it just sort of popped into my mind. of course there would have already been lots of Supremes clips, interviews with Diana and with Mary, etc. so it's not like the Sups wouldn't be represented anyway. there probably wouldn't have been a ton of stuff on MRATV and probably little to none on the Marvelettes.

I think DC were already broken up at this time but what a great opportunity for a mini reunion of the girls. i think Matthew Knowles and the production firm would have recognized what good PR it would be to have DC acknowledge their girl group predecessors and a perfect time for the 3 to re-appear together.