Reflections lp - their first "bomb" after hitting it big

[sup_fan]

prior to reflections, the main studio albums of WDOLG, More Hits, Symphony, A Go Go and HDH all went top 10 on the pop chart. and often even higher on r&b. [[i'm purposely not including the specialty albums). Plus the group just had a massive Greatest Hits set.

so Reflections album comes out in late March 68 and only goes to #18. and was on the charts only 28 weeks. here's what others did:

WDOLG #2 89 weeks
More Hits #6 37 weeks
Symphony #8 37 weeks
A Go Go #1 52 weeks
HDH #6 29 weeks

the album had 2 top 10 singles, plus quite a few well know covers. so what went wrong?

what should they have done differently?

[RanRan79]

I think the main reason, perhaps the only legit reason, for the "failure" is that, while it contained two top 10 hit singles, one certainly categorized as a major hit, both singles had come and gone "long" before the album was released. Had "Forever" been a hit, it probably would've spurred interest in the new album, but since it was flopping too, DRATS just wasn't a fan priority. And truth is, except for their work with the Tempts, DRATS would never be an album artist again.

I guess I can think of one more possible reason the album may not have resonated with the public: the album scene was changing. Although Reflections has a number of covers on it, the public was growing more interested in albums with mostly, or all, new material.

The loss of HDH and Florence, and the elevation of Diana Ross to top billing all had their individual effects on the group, but even these cannot explain why DRATS' non duet albums never attained the heights of the Flo era albums.

[RanRan79]

Let's face it, if not for "Reflections", "Love Child", "Someday" and "Gonna Make You Love Me", the DRATS era would've been a pop music bust.

[copley]

Now I like 'Reflections', in fact I have a CD copy that I got sent from the US about 20 years ago. Times were changing, music was changing, the original fans had grown up and had moved on to other music. The transition from the #60's to '70's was a very difficult time for many groups. Plus as has been said, the departure of Flo, HDH, name change etc did have an adverse effect. I think that Diana should have left before the name change at the same time as Flo. All it did was prolong the inevitable! Mary would have had a choice to regroup or strike out on her own! Just a thought.

[BayouMotownMan]

The Reflections lp was not a failure; while it did not chart as well as the previous studio sets it did good sales and turned a profit.

I think what hurt the lp was the name change and the fact that Gordy flooded the market with Supremes. Their catalog of current lps was immense in 1968.

[sup_fan]

yeah i didn't mean it really was a failure. just relative to the chart rankings of the previous albums. my point was to show how drastically their album chart performances changed.

LC did a bit better but only marginally. it went to 14 and was on the charts for 21 weeks.
Join was a huge hit - #2 and on for 32 weeks.

And yes they flooded the market but this was hardly the first time

Between Aug 64 and Aug 65 you had - WDOLG, reissue of Meet, Liverpool, CWP, Sam Cooke and More Hits

Between Jan 68 and Dec 68 you had - Reflections, TOTT, FG, Love Child, Join, TCB

So 6 and 6. of course in 68 you still had older albums selling like Greatest Hits, A Go Go, etc.

[floyjoy678]

Flo being replaced, HDH no longer writing their songs and the name change certainly hurt them but let's face it by 1968 the Supremes were getting kinda stale and corny. Everyone acts like the ship went down in the early 70s but I think it started in '68.

[sup_fan]

Flo being replaced, HDH no longer writing their songs and the name change certainly hurt them but let's face it by 1968 the Supremes were getting kinda stale and corny. Everyone acts like the ship went down in the early 70s but I think it started in '68.

that's a valid point which is interesting since Reflections [[the song) was so innovative - exploring bits of psychedelic soul.

IMO the album is unfinished. had HDH stayed, perhaps some of the tracks would have polished up more. and they might have invested time and resources into expanded on the amazing sound they forged with Reflections. as it was Deke did I'm Gonna Make It and also did Am I Asking Too Much [[which could have been included). I've heard rumors that others might have helped finish up Forever Came Today.

so out of the various things recorded, you have these san fran/psych/soul songs like:

Reflections
i can't make it along
I'm gonna make it
Forever came today
am i asking too much
bah bah bah

you have the sunshine/LA/southern California pop:

In and out of love
up up and away
going all the way to true true love
a little breeze
what the world needs now
stay in my lonely arms

light pop/r&b from smokey & others

Then
Misery makes it
treat me nice john henry
can't shake it loose
a little breeze
when it's to the top
honey bee

motown covers

heaven must have sent you
love makes me do foolish

plus tons of leftover A Go Go stuff

[BayouMotownMan]

As I recall at the time the Reflections lp was issued, these lps were still current:

WDOLG
Copa
A Go Go
Sing HDH
Sing R&H
Greatest Hits
Meet

[sup_fan]

yeah i wouldn't be surprised if Copa was still in circulation. it was on the charts for over a year and it would have been the only Live option for the group too.

[Spreadinglove21]

Out of curiosity, what albums were released around the same time as Reflections?

[JohnnyB]

Out of curiosity, what albums were released around the same time as Reflections?

Greatest Hits was released in August of 1967 and immediately preceded Reflections. I imagine GH was still selling strongly when Reflections was released in March of 1968. The next LP releases were in August 1968 — Talk Of The Town and Funny Girl.

[Spreadinglove21]

Greatest Hits was released in August of 1967 and immediately preceded Reflections. I imagine GH was still selling strongly when Reflections was released in March of 1968. The next LP releases were in August 1968 — Talk Of The Town and Funny Girl.

I should have been more clear--what other albums by other top acts, or up and coming acts, were released around the same timeframe as Reflections and competing with that album on the album charts?

[marybrewster]

One possibility might be, in all of the cases where an LP did well, the LP had been released within 4 months of the lead single.

In the case of REFLECTIONS, the LP was released almost a YEAR after the lead single.

ALL TIME FRAMES ARE APPROXIMATE.

But I do wonder if it did have an adverse effect.

[TheMotownManiac]

Let's face it, if not for "Reflections", "Love Child", "Someday" and "Gonna Make You Love Me", the DRATS era would've been a pop music bust.


The DR&TS era was 2 1/2 years and in that time they had three platinum singles, a smash that went to number two and another soft top 10. Most groups would kill for that.

They certainly slipped a lot, however to put it into perspective, only The Tempts were more prolific at Motown during that time frame, With albums as well.

[TheMotownManiac]

I should have been more clear--what other albums by other top acts, or up and coming acts, were released around the same timeframe as Reflections and competing with that album on the album charts?

Supremes greatest hits was still in the top 10. Aretha was selling albums like crazy, Valley of the dolls was big. The Tempts hit 13 with Mellow Mood. and Smokey was Top 20 with GH package. Sgt Pepper’s, and the new Magical Mystery Tour were huge.

[TheMotownManiac]

One possibility might be, in all of the cases where an LP did well, the LP had been released within 4 months of the lead single.

In the case of REFLECTIONS, the LP was released almost a YEAR after the lead single.

ALL TIME FRAMES ARE APPROXIMATE.

But I do wonder if it did have an adverse effect.

it was eight months after the single but I agree with you I think that had a big affect. A lot of people were over the song. Often in situations like that, one of the newer singles also sparks interest to get people to look at the album and then they see that there’s that another prior huge hit that they like and they buy the album. Reflections did not have that luxury. Not a lot of people are going to pick it up on the strength of the other two singles.

[TheMotownManiac]

The Reflections lp was not a failure; while it did not chart as well as the previous studio sets it did good sales and turned a profit.

I think what hurt the lp was the name change and the fact that Gordy flooded the market with Supremes. Their catalog of current lps was immense in 1968.

The market wasn’t flooded with Supremes product at all. They only had one album on the chart. The fact that their catalog was still in print would not be a factor on a brand-new album release. If you look at every act in the top 50, I assure you most of their catalog were still in print. Anyway, greatest hits was the great equalizer with the Supremes catalog. After that their previous studio albums really dropped off.

I don’t believe the name change had any effect whatsoever other than perhaps negligible. Most of the general public who were buying Supremes albums didn’t care enough one way or another what the billing was like to make them not want to buy an album that they otherwise wanted to buy. If there had been a decent selection of songs, that’s all that would have mattered.

The main change didn’t seem to have any effect whatsoever on Greatest Hits which was Motown‘s biggest selling album until songs in the key of life. The name change means a lot to us Supremes nut cases. One of my absolute very dearest friends, 55 years later, is still carping because they used the name change on greatest hits when none of the singles on there were issued under the new name. And even he bought the album. [[He also is still crabbing about the fact that diana ross got separate dealing with her own title card in the opening credits for TCB.) They were still selling out arenas after the name change and huge college campuses. It wasn’t like Republicans today who won’t let their kids watch Snow White anymore, all the scintilla of the Fanbase would buy any music they wanted to hear regardless of billing.

I think the departure of HDH had everything to do with it - too many boring covers. The previous album, HDH, had some very very iffy tracks on it. That limp dick arrangement for heat wave, for example, says that Motown didn’t give a damn and after a couple questionable tracks on A Go Go, I think the fans were thinking twice before they made such a big investment. Also I’m sure that some people were scared off by Rogers and Hart not realizing the kind of material it was.

i’m sure that the departure of Florence Ballard had an effect on everything. I was her number one fan and didn’t bail on the group. I know some people did.

i’m very glad you mentioned that the album was successful and turned a profit. Motown continued to put out albums on groups that did not chart like the Marvelettes and Martha common or charted poorly like the Supremes for Topps duets. He didn’t cost them a lot to put an album out as most of the expanse was built against the group.

I also think the cover art could’ve been improved. The actual concept of all the photographs I think works very well, but I think they could have used a reflective silver paper or a lot more color around the photographs. There’s just too much white paper for an album concept design during the summer of love.

[1382hitsville]

As I recall at the time the Reflections lp was issued, these lps were still current:

WDOLG
Copa
A Go Go
Sing HDH
Sing R&H
Greatest Hits
Meet

Things has changed...no Expanded Edition for years now.

[sup_fan]

what are thoughts on the idea of Forever Came Today being the f/u to Reflections? and issue the lp at that time?

half of the album contain tracks that were part of this "psychedelic soul" sound. new and interesting. Reflections was such a hot song and such a new sound for the group. maybe In and Out was just too sunshine and bouncy. Forever at least seemed to build on the sound of Reflections, regardless of the strength of the song as a single. and actually maybe following Reflections would have helped it.

and if the lp was released shortly after, you could have had 2 singles and the album all working together

[Boogiedown]

What is f/u?:o

[johnjeb]

The market wasn’t flooded with Supremes product at all. They only had one album on the chart. The fact that their catalog was still in print would not be a factor on a brand-new album release. If you look at every act in the top 50, I assure you most of their catalog were still in print. Anyway, greatest hits was the great equalizer with the Supremes catalog. After that their previous studio albums really dropped off.

I don’t believe the name change had any effect whatsoever other than perhaps negligible. Most of the general public who were buying Supremes albums didn’t care enough one way or another what the billing was like to make them not want to buy an album that they otherwise wanted to buy. If there had been a decent selection of songs, that’s all that would have mattered.

The main change didn’t seem to have any effect whatsoever on Greatest Hits which was Motown‘s biggest selling album until songs in the key of life. The name change means a lot to us Supremes nut cases. One of my absolute very dearest friends, 55 years later, is still carping because they used the name change on greatest hits when none of the singles on there were issued under the new name. And even he bought the album. [[He also is still crabbing about the fact that diana ross got separate dealing with her own title card in the opening credits for TCB.) They were still selling out arenas after the name change and huge college campuses. It wasn’t like Republicans today who won’t let their kids watch Snow White anymore, all the scintilla of the Fanbase would buy any music they wanted to hear regardless of billing.

I think the departure of HDH had everything to do with it - too many boring covers. The previous album, HDH, had some very very iffy tracks on it. That limp dick arrangement for heat wave, for example, says that Motown didn’t give a damn and after a couple questionable tracks on A Go Go, I think the fans were thinking twice before they made such a big investment. Also I’m sure that some people were scared off by Rogers and Hart not realizing the kind of material it was.

i’m sure that the departure of Florence Ballard had an effect on everything. I was her number one fan and didn’t bail on the group. I know some people did.

i’m very glad you mentioned that the album was successful and turned a profit. Motown continued to put out albums on groups that did not chart like the Marvelettes and Martha common or charted poorly like the Supremes for Topps duets. He didn’t cost them a lot to put an album out as most of the expanse was built against the group.

I also think the cover art could’ve been improved. The actual concept of all the photographs I think works very well, but I think they could have used a reflective silver paper or a lot more color around the photographs. There’s just too much white paper for an album concept design during the summer of love.

Good post!

I like the Reflections album. The problem is that most of the songs, even the Motown originals, border on adult contemporary and easy listening. I referenced my Billboard Chart Books, there were a wide range of albums on the chart at this time. This album did as well as other easy-listening albums during this period. However, not a good showing for the top female group of the era competing with current albums by Dionne and Aretha. Albums by Andy Williams, Bobby Goldsboro and Glen Campbell even did a bit better than Reflections.

I can't imagine most teens who were buying The Beatles, Rolling Stones, Simon & Garfunkel, The Monkees, Doors etc., choosing this album based on the one big hit, Reflections. The mediocre charting songs, FCT and IAOOL, along with the covers on Side 2, probably dissuaded casual buyers.

Two songs that shouldn’t have been there are What The World Needs Now Is Love and Love [Makes Me Do Foolish Things], songs from ‘65 and ‘66. I think the Symphony album was successful because 3 of the covers were recent hits that teens loved: Yesterday, Unchained Melody and Lovers’ Concerto. I think those off-set the standards on that album.

Songs from ‘67 and early ‘68 would have been better options. If a Love Theme was intended then there were recent hits such as Never My Love, To Sir with Love, Your Precious Love and All You Need Is Love. Other recent hits like How Can I Be Sure, Groovin’, The Letter, I Say A Little Prayer, Chain Of Fools and The Beat Goes On might have been more appealing to buyers.

In my suburban working class community neither Florence's departure nor the name change was of much interest beyond die-hard fans or eliciting a passing comment. Love Child and Someday demonstrated that with the right song the group, whatever its name, could hit the mark.

[sup_fan]

What is f/u?:o

lol "follow up" and not...

[sup_fan]

Good post!

I like the Reflections album. The problem is that most of the songs, even the Motown originals, border on adult contemporary and easy listening. I referenced my Billboard Chart Books, there were a wide range of albums on the chart at this time. This album did as well as other easy-listening albums during this period. However, not a good showing for the top female group of the era competing with current albums by Dionne and Aretha. Albums by Andy Williams, Bobby Goldsboro and Glen Campbell even did a bit better than Reflections.

I can't imagine most teens who were buying The Beatles, Rolling Stones, Simon & Garfunkel, The Monkees, Doors etc., choosing this album based on the one big hit, Reflections. The mediocre charting songs, FCT and IAOOL, along with the covers on Side 2, probably dissuaded casual buyers.

Two songs that shouldn’t have been there are What The World Needs Now Is Love and Love [Makes Me Do Foolish Things], songs from ‘65 and ‘66. I think the Symphony album was successful because 3 of the covers were recent hits that teens loved: Yesterday, Unchained Melody and Lovers’ Concerto. I think those off-set the standards on that album.

Songs from ‘67 and early ‘68 would have been better options. If a Love Theme was intended then there were recent hits such as Never My Love, To Sir with Love, Your Precious Love and All You Need Is Love. Other recent hits like How Can I Be Sure, Groovin’, The Letter, I Say A Little Prayer, Chain Of Fools and The Beat Goes On might have been more appealing to buyers.

In my suburban working class community neither Florence's departure nor the name change was of much interest beyond die-hard fans or eliciting a passing comment. Love Child and Someday demonstrated that with the right song the group, whatever its name, could hit the mark.

i agree that Flo's departure and the name change were relatively insignificant. some have said that some of the djs and programmers were put off by the name change. but let's face it - had the group been producing amazing music, they wouldn't have given two shits. these djs probably weren't inclined to be major supporters of Berry's cross-over vision and conquering Vegas and tv specials and all.

although probably not known to the general public, or at least not really understood, the departure of HDH might have been the biggest hurdle. they had handled so much of the Sups music that there just wasn't much else of quality sitting around. and their abrupt departure left people scrambling. Sing HDH had been release in early 67 and motown was able to obviously milk the GH package for massive sales but a new studio album was needed [[and not a specialty album like Broadway 2 Hollywood or Disney).

it is fun to speculate if HDH had run their course anyway. even if they had stayed, at some point, the bloom would have faded. could HDH have helped keep DRATS relevant to the college kids in spite of the group becoming even more showbiz?

[after you]

Nothing went wrong this is a great Ross album I love it so much her voice is Impeccable

[RanRan79]

The DR&TS era was 2 1/2 years and in that time they had three platinum singles, a smash that went to number two and another soft top 10. Most groups would kill for that.

They certainly slipped a lot, however to put it into perspective, only The Tempts were more prolific at Motown during that time frame, With albums as well.

Yes, they had those. But my point was that if it hadn't been for those four singles I mentioned, and along with the two "low" charting top 10s, the DRATS period would have been a bust, and the point stands. What the Supremes did during the Flo era was unprecedented. In comparison, had DRATS not scored a #1 or another top 10, it would have been a failure.

The truth is that we often look at the 70s Supremes as a "bust". But song for song, they often scored better than any other female group of the 70s. Certainly countless female groups of the era would've killed to put up the kind of numbers that the 70s Supremes did. That fact doesn't take away the issue of the 70s Supremes ultimately performing below what should have been expected. Like DRATS.

[bradsupremes]

it is fun to speculate if HDH had run their course anyway. even if they had stayed, at some point, the bloom would have faded. could HDH have helped keep DRATS relevant to the college kids in spite of the group becoming even more showbiz?

This is a hard one. "In And Out Of Love" went top 10 and but then "Forever Came Today" stalled at #28. Looking at the Four Tops, "I'm A Different World" didn't even go top 40, but this was after HDH left Motown and these releases may not have been what HDH would have wanted as singles. Between their departure at the end of 1967 and then returning in late 1969 with Hot Wax/Invictus recordings, we don't know what their material would have sounded like had they continued. They were still clearly writing hits as "Give Me Just A Little More Time" and "Band Of Gold" went #3 and a few others did moderately well in the top 20/40, but they were focused on running their label rather than devoting all their energy to songwriting and producing. Had HDH stayed, I don't think they would have continued with the steamrolling of number ones like they had previously done in 1964-66 but it likely would have been a slowing simmer with hits in the top 5, 10 and 20 - definitely would have been better than what actually happened.

[RanRan79]

what are thoughts on the idea of Forever Came Today being the f/u to Reflections? and issue the lp at that time?

half of the album contain tracks that were part of this "psychedelic soul" sound. new and interesting. Reflections was such a hot song and such a new sound for the group. maybe In and Out was just too sunshine and bouncy. Forever at least seemed to build on the sound of Reflections, regardless of the strength of the song as a single. and actually maybe following Reflections would have helped it.

and if the lp was released shortly after, you could have had 2 singles and the album all working together

IMO, replacing the Funk Bros on "In and Out" with LA musicians was the wrong move. I can't wait to hear the original track cut in Detroit, if we ever get the Reflections EE. The song itself- the lyrics, the lead, the backing vocals- are worthy of a hit, but that track is lacking the oomph of current Motown. Even if HDH were going for that sunshine pop type of sound, there was a way to do that and keep the song Motown. Why Motown would ever attempt to abandon their sound for another sound when all those other sound makers would kill to sound like Motown, will always be a mystery.

While I love "Forever", I just don't think it had the right ingredients to be a huge hit, regardless of when it was released. It's a superb album track, maybe even a B side that could have gotten some chart action. But I don't think it had the right groove to blare out of a radio at a listener in quite the same way as the Supremes' previous singles, including "In and Out of Love". Perhaps a different mix would've helped, but I don't know how much. Certainly the backing vocals needed to be recut or brought up in the mix as they are halfway indecipherable.

Honestly, post "Reflections", I don't think I hear anything cut prior to the release of the album, whether on the album or shelved, that could guarantee their continued hit streak. There are songs cut by other artists during this same period that might have needed to be handed to the Supremes in order to keep things going in the right direction.

[Boogiedown]

lol "follow up" and not...
Aha!!
hee haw!!!:o


Thinking about it:

Titling the album REFLECTIONS gives it a nostalgic tinge ...a built in subliminal "passe"-ness about the music ,
or that's a good title for a greatest hits package.

FOREVER CAME TODAY has a certain zing to it ....evokes eternal optimism!!

That would be a good LP title for them as they move forward and to project that they here to stay ...

those two titles are almost exact opposites i

[PeaceNHarmony]

My guess is that the relatively low chart success was, as others have said, due to: changing public taste, overabundance of Supremes albums, and maybe a less-than-stellar lp cover. There may have been 3-5 bitter Bettys who had their panties in a twist over Diana's name on the cover, but it's illogical to think this would have had any effect on lp sales - would anyone sane buy an album that featured one lead singer on every cut & his/her picture on the cover but not buy the same album because the lead singer's name was featured on the cover? Additionally the fact that the lp was released about 8 months after it's lead single surely did no favors towards attracting potential buyers!

[marybrewster]

Cover art might have had a small impact as well. If you look at all of the previous releases, one cohesive or predominant picture is the focal point of the cover. You KNOW you are buying a Supremes record. With REFLECTIONS, the multiple pictures get lost in the overall design. The font of the title also isn't as crisp and deliberate.

[Boogiedown]

interesting how the cover reads as:


Diana Ross and The SUPREMES

and not the opposite https://i.ebayimg.com/thumbs/images/g/iBkAAOSw9lRhpSXx/s-l225.webp:cool:

or even equally.

[sup_fan]

see i love the Reflections cover. the collage provided endless hours of looking at the pics, comparing, etc. and i'm not necessarily exaggerating on the "endless hours" lolol i would sit and listen to the records and just stare at the pics on the sleeve, like WDOLG. almost like absorbing them

i do like the idea someone suggested of a more metallic background behind the collage. something "reflective". I will admit the BACK cover of the lp is less than stellar. obviously they were working to establish Diana more so it's only her pic and all [[supposedly) her quotes. of course us diehard fans would have preferred each girl with a pic and maybe each girl providing a quote. but we all know...

[sup_fan]

This is a hard one. "In And Out Of Love" went top 10 and but then "Forever Came Today" stalled at #28. Looking at the Four Tops, "I'm A Different World" didn't even go top 40, but this was after HDH left Motown and these releases may not have been what HDH would have wanted as singles. Between their departure at the end of 1967 and then returning in late 1969 with Hot Wax/Invictus recordings, we don't know what their material would have sounded like had they continued. They were still clearly writing hits as "Give Me Just A Little More Time" and "Band Of Gold" went #3 and a few others did moderately well in the top 20/40, but they were focused on running their label rather than devoting all their energy to songwriting and producing. Had HDH stayed, I don't think they would have continued with the steamrolling of number ones like they had previously done in 1964-66 but it likely would have been a slowing simmer with hits in the top 5, 10 and 20 - definitely would have been better than what actually happened.

IMO the hits HDH finally cranked out on Invictus and HW were more about generating some tried and true songs that would generate immediate cash. they had to get some money into the label so they basically mimicked and did quick updates to their sup/tops style and it worked. and you're point is spot on that now they had to manage a label, not just be creative and develop a "sound"

i think if they had stayed at motown, they would have eventually started to separate. there would still be HDH stuff but they would probably be more in charge of production and trying to develop new talent. so it might be Eddie and lamont partnering with a new 3rd guy. or Brian and someone working on tunes.

Clearly the sound would have had to change as public tastes and interests changed. I think that's why i'm so impressed with the basic concepts and sounds in the Reflections single and LP. I see it as HDH exploring the various "California" sounds as that had begun to emerge on one of the key new "sounds" in the US to rival the british and motown. I also agree with Ran that IAOOL should have been done in Detroit with the Funks. it would have helped with the "motown meets LA/Sunshine pop" idea

[bradsupremes]

i think if they had stayed at motown, they would have eventually started to separate. there would still be HDH stuff but they would probably be more in charge of production and trying to develop new talent. so it might be Eddie and lamont partnering with a new 3rd guy. or Brian and someone working on tunes.

They stayed a unit until 1973 so I think they would have continued that if they stayed with Motown. Even as early 1963, Eddie was writing with other songwriters especially Norman Whitfield. I have to remind myself that it's Eddie who wrote the lyrics for "Ain't Too Proud To Beg," "Too Many Fish In The Sea" and "Beauty Is Only Skin Deep." Brian did a bit of work with others as well although that was concentrated before HDH became a unit. He did write "I Can't Give Back The Love I Feel For You" with Ashford & Simpson just before his departure. They may have mixed things up a bit on a few occasions, but would have continued being the team they were.

[sup_fan]

They stayed a unit until 1973 so I think they would have continued that if they stayed with Motown. Even as early 1963, Eddie was writing with other songwriters especially Norman Whitfield. I have to remind myself that it's Eddie who wrote the lyrics for "Ain't Too Proud To Beg," "Too Many Fish In The Sea" and "Beauty Is Only Skin Deep." Brian did a bit of work with others as well although that was concentrated before HDH became a unit. He did write "I Can't Give Back The Love I Feel For You" with Ashford & Simpson just before his departure. They may have mixed things up a bit on a few occasions, but would have continued being the team they were.

what all was their complaint with motown? was it purely financial or were they wanting more leadership within the organization itself? while we know money was a huge aspect of their departure, i thought they were wanting their own label within the Motown framework or more leadership over the writing/recording/producing.

[kenneth]

I like the "Reflections" album but it's definitely a transitional piece. I can see why lovers of the Sups before they became DRATS don't like it that much. It's much more already getting to the late 60s/"sophisticated soul" sound that much of Motown gravitated towards.

Also, if you think of the group in 2 different phases [[3 if you count the Jean/Scherrie years), all the LPs before the first Greatest Hits package have much in common, as do all the LPs after the GH piece. It's almost like two different groups really, at least to me the sound changed that much.

But "Reflections" has a lot of great vocals on it. I like all three singles. I also like the way they cover "Love [[Makes Me Do Foolish Things)" and the absurdly titled "Bah Bah Bah" [[by Brenda Holloway as writer!) and I think Ross does a good job with "Ode to Billie Joe" [[although I like Martha's version better). Overall, it's my favorite DRATS album after "Love Child."

[Motown Eddie]

what all was their complaint with motown? was it purely financial or were they wanting more leadership within the organization itself? while we know money was a huge aspect of their departure, i thought they were wanting their own label within the Motown framework or more leadership over the writing/recording/producing.

H-D-H's complaints with the company were two fold; they wanted more money and they wanted their own label within Motown. When Gordy did not give them those things, that's when they decided leave Motown to start up their own company Invictus/Hot Wax.

[PeaceNHarmony]

see i love the Reflections cover. the collage provided endless hours of looking at the pics, comparing, etc. and i'm not necessarily exaggerating on the "endless hours" lolol i would sit and listen to the records and just stare at the pics on the sleeve, like WDOLG. almost like absorbing them

i do like the idea someone suggested of a more metallic background behind the collage. something "reflective". I will admit the BACK cover of the lp is less than stellar. obviously they were working to establish Diana more so it's only her pic and all [[supposedly) her quotes. of course us diehard fans would have preferred each girl with a pic and maybe each girl providing a quote. but we all know...Well, what do I know;) Glad you like the cover and I can see your point - to me it's more of a back-cover look, and a little Pickwick-records re-release looking than a great Motown cover. I will stand by my thought, though, and perhaps more clearly state that the cover was not ... rack-tractive? I know what I'm thinking but not putting it greatly into words.

[sup_fan]

Well, what do I know;) Glad you like the cover and I can see your point - to me it's more of a back-cover look, and a little Pickwick-records re-release looking than a great Motown cover. I will stand by my thought, though, and perhaps more clearly state that the cover was not ... rack-tractive? I know what I'm thinking but not putting it greatly into words.

here's a cool idea! what if they had used a photo or something for a 3D Hologram look?

[PeaceNHarmony]

here's a cool idea! what if they had used a photo or something for a 3D Hologram look?Yes! That coulda/woulda worked! But the more I think about it, with the many good ideas here I still come back to the release date. If the lp had been on the racks during the single's chart run I can't help but think that lp buyers may have thought 'yeah, great song & the Supremes always produce a quality product' & picked the lp up, and some single buyers may have thought along the same lines. I like your idea! Perhaps you can design for the expanded release? ;)

[TheMotownManiac]

Yes, they had those. But my point was that if it hadn't been for those four singles I mentioned, and along with the two "low" charting top 10s, the DRATS period would have been a bust, and the point stands. What the Supremes did during the Flo era was unprecedented. In comparison, had DRATS not scored a #1 or another top 10, it would have been a failure.

The truth is that we often look at the 70s Supremes as a "bust". But song for song, they often scored better than any other female group of the 70s. Certainly countless female groups of the era would've killed to put up the kind of numbers that the 70s Supremes did. That fact doesn't take away the issue of the 70s Supremes ultimately performing below what should have been expected. Like DRATS.

you’re absolutely right, if you take away the hits you have a failure. And it’s a shame that they had such a tough act to follow with the original group because it’s never been bettered: 10 number ones +2 more top tens in less than three years…… only the Beatles have done that to this very day. It was a great time to be a Supremes fan.

as far as the 70s Supremes go, if they were a new group beginning with up the latter, they would be totally forgotten today. They needed that big hit that they never got, and it certainly was not their fault. The 3° made a career off of one number one record and a smash club hit. They were out drying the Supremes at the Copa with no hits at all yet. The Honey Cone, With their number Want Ads, and the tepid, rumored gold follow up Stick Up made a name for themselves. I imagine more people remember One monkey don’t stop no show, than they do Nathan Jones or Floy Joy. Considering that Motown had a dearth of material, I think they did very well, but the fact is, outside of die hard die Hards, there was very little interest in the group as a group.

I don’t know if you are familiar with this that came out in 1974, But this record was a game changer and it didn’t even chart. That’s what they needed, a big hit and a total makeover. They had the talent, but they didn’t have a fresh sound, like below: A fresh sound, the perfect vocal for radio and a full-blown production. If they had had the distribution this would’ve been a top-five or number one record.

https://youtu.be/kuY0zOVj5-s

[daviddh]

the album was released at least 6 months to late. remember , they were not going to release a Reflections album and the single was going to be their swan single with the release of the hits album.
the hits album was massive selling 2 million , and i think 1968 was the supremes best year sales wise with the 2 million sellers and hit albums.
by march of 1968, Reflections was over and Forever bombed. if FCT hit ,im sure it would have hit top ten.
i personally would have infused the album with more electronic sounds and made it their Sgt Pepper .
i also would have included the Happening
side 2 was kinda weak

[daviddh]

sorry ,FCT was the first single to not grab me or have that motown sparkle, cool start
something was missing
always sounded like a demo to me
nice diana vocal and lyrics though

[TomatoTom123]

H-D-H's complaints with the company were two fold; they wanted more money and they wanted their own label within Motown. When Gordy did not give them those things, that's when they decided leave Motown to start up their own company Invictus/Hot Wax.

I wonder what would have happened if Gordy had given into their demands! Interesting…!!! :D

[jobeterob]

Only in Rossland would Reflections be a failure

It’s listed here at sales of 750000 -not too shabby

https://www.greasylake.org/the-circuit/index.php?/topic/116321-the-supremes-diana-ross-stevie-wonder-and-ray-charlesusa-album-sales/

[after you]

All you have to do is consider the source , it’s an incredible Ross album and the sales are proof by no means a failure

[Ollie9]

I consider the “Reflections” album a reasonably good one that might have been so much better.
Three songs that definitely don’t belong on the album are “”What The World Needs Now”, “Up Up And Away” and “Love Makes Me Do Foolish Things”. They just don’t match the vibe of the “Reflections” single.
I would have replaced them with “I Can’t Shake It Loose”, “John Henry” And “The Beginning Of The End Of Love” for a more contemporary sound.
“I Can’t Shake It Loose” in particular would have made for a more radio friendly single then the rather grandiose “FCT”.

[jobucats]

Now I like 'Reflections', in fact I have a CD copy that I got sent from the US about 20 years ago. Times were changing, music was changing, the original fans had grown up and had moved on to other music. The transition from the #60's to '70's was a very difficult time for many groups. Plus as has been said, the departure of Flo, HDH, name change etc did have an adverse effect. I think that Diana should have left before the name change at the same time as Flo. All it did was prolong the inevitable! Mary would have had a choice to regroup or strike out on her own! Just a thought.

As much as I loved the group the Supremes, I also believe Diana should have left even earlier than Florence since, apparently to the haters, Diana was the reason for all of the discourse going on in the group. If Mary and Florence were indeed jealous and unhappy with how Diana was being put out front, they should have taken it upon themselves to "fire" her and see just how much more successful they could have become. Although I also liked the album "Reflections", it is a rather abrupt and stale production compared to the previous studio album, Supremes Sing HDH.

[sup_fan]

so here's another question - when did the "decline" with the albums really start? what was their high-water mark?

WDOLG and More Hits both were exceptional albums. some might argue that More Hits is the ultimate Sup album since it is nearly all new material, great harmonies by the girls, each song is a winner, and all HDH. WDOLG is very very good, although a bit more patchwork but holds together well

Symphony was a strong attempt to continue bridging the generation gap between teens and parents. well done although not a polished of productions as what HDH would do later on the Broadway to Hollywood. just as it is enjoyable to hear DMF grow and develop, this is a great example of how HDH grew

A Go Go gets the historic importance of the first lp by girls to go #1. and when reading the song listing, it's easy to see why. but do all of the productions stand up to the "supremes" level? some of the LA tunes just don't have the necessary punch. i wonder how many fans, after buying, sort of felt "hmmm i like but had hoped it would be a bit better"

HDH - IMO this album further adds to the disappointment felt by fans on A go Go. some superb songs here but some turds too. Always In My Heart is one of the worst things the original group recorded. one fan described it as the "march to the guillotine" song. so this lp is definitely uneven. and didn't match A Go Go sales

Reflections - and here we are with this patchwork set


so you could say that Reflections is a continuation of the decline started with A Go Go?

[RanRan79]

But "Reflections" has a lot of great vocals on it. I like all three singles. I also like the way they cover "Love [[Makes Me Do Foolish Things)" and the absurdly titled "Bah Bah Bah" [[by Brenda Holloway as writer!) and I think Ross does a good job with "Ode to Billie Joe" [[although I like Martha's version better). Overall, it's my favorite DRATS album after "Love Child."

I like "Love" also, and I love "Bah", an excellent deep cut that should be more popular. Diana's "Ode" is cool, it's listenable, but I wish she had been allowed to use her lower register. She sounds a bit too peppy for such a somber song. [[I always figure that with the name change, it makes sense to have Diana sing lead on every cut on the album, but quite honestly, Mary was the better fit for "Ode". Sucks that she wasn't given that opportunity.) I love Martha's version, btw.

[RanRan79]

H-D-H's complaints with the company were two fold; they wanted more money and they wanted their own label within Motown. When Gordy did not give them those things, that's when they decided leave Motown to start up their own company Invictus/Hot Wax.

I don't know how much more money HDH deserved, considering they had to be making an enviable sum off of the massive hits they wrote and produced, but I think it was a bit stingy of Gordy not to compromise by giving them their own label under the Motown umbrella based off of just how much HDH's personal success elevated Motown's, and by extension, Gordy.

[RanRan79]

you’re absolutely right, if you take away the hits you have a failure. And it’s a shame that they had such a tough act to follow with the original group because it’s never been bettered: 10 number ones +2 more top tens in less than three years…… only the Beatles have done that to this very day. It was a great time to be a Supremes fan.

as far as the 70s Supremes go, if they were a new group beginning with up the latter, they would be totally forgotten today. They needed that big hit that they never got, and it certainly was not their fault. The 3° made a career off of one number one record and a smash club hit. They were out drying the Supremes at the Copa with no hits at all yet. The Honey Cone, With their number Want Ads, and the tepid, rumored gold follow up Stick Up made a name for themselves. I imagine more people remember One monkey don’t stop no show, than they do Nathan Jones or Floy Joy. Considering that Motown had a dearth of material, I think they did very well, but the fact is, outside of die hard die Hards, there was very little interest in the group as a group.

I don’t know if you are familiar with this that came out in 1974, But this record was a game changer and it didn’t even chart. That’s what they needed, a big hit and a total makeover. They had the talent, but they didn’t have a fresh sound, like below: A fresh sound, the perfect vocal for radio and a full-blown production. If they had had the distribution this would’ve been a top-five or number one record.

https://youtu.be/kuY0zOVj5-s

I'm a huge 3 Degrees fan and have remarked in the forum previously my thoughts on their lack of success here in the States. The 70s Supremes' failures have been beaten to death. I was merely pointing out that, yes, in comparison to most other acts, what DRATS did in singles and album numbers was killer. But for them- competing against self, one might say- they just barely scrapped by "irrelevance". Likewise, the 70s Supremes did the same. Single for single, the 70s Supremes bested every other female group of the decade. Unfortunately they failed to score that massive "When Will I See You Again", "Lady Marmalade", "Best of My Love" mega hit. But on paper the 70s Supremes did fairly well, considering how dismal female groups often performed in the 70s for some extremely odd reason.

[RanRan79]

Only in Rossland would Reflections be a failure

It’s listed here at sales of 750000 -not too shabby

https://www.greasylake.org/the-circuit/index.php?/topic/116321-the-supremes-diana-ross-stevie-wonder-and-ray-charlesusa-album-sales/

Of course we have to take online reports of record sales with a grain of salt.

Not just Rossland, any major artist that is holding steady in the top 10 consecutively will see anything that fails to reach the top 10 labeled as a "failure". I've seen million selling albums considered failures because their predecessors sold multi millions and then said album only sells one million. That's just the business. Diana isn't special in this.

[RanRan79]

I consider the “Reflections” album a reasonably good one that might have been so much better.
Three songs that definitely don’t belong on the album are “”What The World Needs Now”, “Up Up And Away” and “Love Makes Me Do Foolish Things”. They just don’t match the vibe of the “Reflections” single.
I would have replaced them with “I Can’t Shake It Loose”, “John Henry” And “The Beginning Of The End Of Love” for a more contemporary sound.
“I Can’t Shake It Loose” in particular would have made for a more radio friendly single then the rather grandiose “FCT”.

I used to hate their "Up, Up and Away", but it's grown on me over the years. I'm with you on "World", which is one of the worst, most uninspired, lackluster vocal performances from the original Supremes ever. And as much as I dig the cover of "Love Makes", I would've scrapped it too, along with "Misery" and "Then". I love "John Henry" but I don't think I would include it.

I like the idea of going a bit darker in mood, similar to "Reflections". I might would've produced it this way:

Reflections
I'm Gonna Make It
Forever Came Today
I Can't Make It Alone
In and Out of Love
Bah Bah Bah

Are You Sure Love Is the Name of This Game
Up, Up and Away
Ode To Billie Joe [[with Mary on lead, or as is)
The Nitty Gritty
Stay In My Lonely Arms
The Look of Love

[RanRan79]

As much as I loved the group the Supremes, I also believe Diana should have left even earlier than Florence since, apparently to the haters, Diana was the reason for all of the discourse going on in the group. If Mary and Florence were indeed jealous and unhappy with how Diana was being put out front, they should have taken it upon themselves to "fire" her and see just how much more successful they could have become. Although I also liked the album "Reflections", it is a rather abrupt and stale production compared to the previous studio album, Supremes Sing HDH.

Diana would've fallen on her face, and so would the other Supremes. There's a reason why Diana left when she did and not a minute before: she wasn't ready. If Gordy had thought Diana was ready for prime time alone:

a) He would've signed her as a solo artist and told the other Primettes to hit the door.

b) He wouldn't have bothered keeping the Supremes around for eight or so flops. He would've shown Flo and Mary the door and kept Diana when he made the official announcement that she was the lead singer.

c) He wouldn't have put up with a moment of the circumstances surrounding Flo's issues with the group. He would've pulled Diana out right then and there.

He didn't. He couldn't. And the story of Diana Ross is the better for it.

[reese]

so here's another question - when did the "decline" with the albums really start? what was their high-water mark?

so you could say that Reflections is a continuation of the decline started with A Go Go?

I don't think the group ever made a truly bad album. There are just some that I like more than others.

For me, the classic period was from 1964-1967. In that era, I think WDOLG, MHBTS, AGG, and HDH are classic albums. I like IHAS as well, but to a lesser degree, probably because of the mix of standards and Motown material.

Beginning with the 1968-1969 period, I find that while I enjoy the albums, I don't think any of them measures up to the earlier albums, with the exception of LOVE CHILD, which I find to be a great album.

With the rest of the albums, R, LTSI, and COTC, each has many songs that I enjoy but for a lack of a better word, I think they are missing the "sparkle" that the earlier albums had.

Note: I also enjoy the Supremes/Tempts duet albums very much.

[johnjeb]

so here's another question - when did the "decline" with the albums really start? what was their high-water mark?

WDOLG and More Hits both were exceptional albums. some might argue that More Hits is the ultimate Sup album since it is nearly all new material, great harmonies by the girls, each song is a winner, and all HDH. WDOLG is very very good, although a bit more patchwork but holds together well

Symphony was a strong attempt to continue bridging the generation gap between teens and parents. well done although not a polished of productions as what HDH would do later on the Broadway to Hollywood. just as it is enjoyable to hear DMF grow and develop, this is a great example of how HDH grew

A Go Go gets the historic importance of the first lp by girls to go #1. and when reading the song listing, it's easy to see why. but do all of the productions stand up to the "supremes" level? some of the LA tunes just don't have the necessary punch. i wonder how many fans, after buying, sort of felt "hmmm i like but had hoped it would be a bit better"

HDH - IMO this album further adds to the disappointment felt by fans on A go Go. some superb songs here but some turds too. Always In My Heart is one of the worst things the original group recorded. one fan described it as the "march to the guillotine" song. so this lp is definitely uneven. and didn't match A Go Go sales

Reflections - and here we are with this patchwork set


so you could say that Reflections is a continuation of the decline started with A Go Go?

For me the decline started with HDH. I thought it came too soon after A’ Go-Go and paled in comparison. A’ Go-Go was extremely popular. Radio stations played the whole album, similar to what they did with More Hits the previous year, and had contests to win the album. It was a fun album to play for friends and at parties.

I played A’ Go-Go regularly for many years. Three of my favorites were LA cuts. In subsequent years I don’t recall conversations with friends and other Supremes fans about differences in quality of certain songs, except comparisons to the originals, until discussions here on SD. A’ Go-Go was also a more teen-oriented album than was Symphony which contained standards.

HDH on the other hand seemed like A’ Go-Go Volume 2 but not nearly as good. The songs weren’t ordered in a manner that sustained a mood. Having You’re Gone right after Hangin’ On was a real mood killer. I would have put the stronger songs on Side 1: YKMHO, Going Down, Stone, Always Love You, LIHANYG, Doubt. It should have attempted a similar vibe as AGG which was still in the Top 20 when HDH was released. I’m not implying that the vocals aren’t good, it’s just a lackluster compilation, imo.

Reflections was a better listening experience for me. It was Motown lite but enjoyable. I was aware that Motown was steering Diana in a new direction. I was okay with that but noticed my peers were moving towards other artists and records. Once the Love Child album was released I realized Reflections could have been so much more. Of course things went downhill with Sunshine and Crop. Fine songs taken individually but not great albums. Motown wasn't even trying.

[reese]

I don't know how much more money HDH deserved, considering they had to be making an enviable sum off of the massive hits they wrote and produced, but I think it was a bit stingy of Gordy not to compromise by giving them their own label under the Motown umbrella based off of just how much HDH's personal success elevated Motown's, and by extension, Gordy.

I suspect that Gordy might have thought if he gave HDH their own imprint, he would be opening himself up to similar demands from Norman Whitfield, Ashford and Simpson, and other successful writers and producers.

[bradsupremes]

Has it ever been discussed who exactly compiled the track lists for the albums? I don't think any of the songwriters/producers supervised what songs went on each album - they were responsible for just the song's productions. I know a specialty project like Sing Rodgers & Hart were overseen by Berry and Gil Askey, but did they select what songs were made the cut and the track order? I always assumed it was someone in Quality Control who selected the tracks, but I never knew who that individual/s were or who gave the thumbs up on an album's approval. Maybe Ralph would know. I think it would explain why some albums were excellent like More Hits and Love Child and why others were sub-par like Let The Sunshine In.

[sup_fan]

great question brad - i always assumed it was the executive producer. or the primary producer. and of course berry surely had a say in it. but did the lp go before QC?

after Where, BL and Come, I'd almost assume HDH were given free reign to do whatever they wanted, especially considering Stop and Back added to the #1. they were so on fire i could see Berry saying you guys put out an album - go for it however you want.

when HDH came up with the song IHAS, that so perfectly paired with the whole "cross-over" effort that the album almost planned itself. they had the material for There's A Place for Us but odds are it would have sold similarly to Sam Cooke or CWP. by taking their next reg studio album and building this mature concept, you would hit a much much larger audience. and while there are a few "adult" songs on the lp, much of it is still quite relevant to teens. Johnny Mathis was hugely popular and his Wonderful Wonderful would absolutely been played at a prom or something like that. same with Stranger. again a huge pop hit in the 50s - while not a fast paced teen dance number, it was certainly played as a romantic slow dance at prom.

but with later albums like Reflections, there isn't 1 primary producer handling most of it. didn't someone say with Right On Frank Wilson was the exec/primary producer and he was the one that selected the various songs? even the ones he didn't produce in the studio?

[reese]

Has it ever been discussed who exactly compiled the track lists for the albums? I don't think any of the songwriters/producers supervised what songs went on each album - they were responsible for just the song's productions. I know a specialty project like Sing Rodgers & Hart were overseen by Berry and Gil Askey, but did they select what songs were made the cut and the track order? I always assumed it was someone in Quality Control who selected the tracks, but I never knew who that individual/s were or who gave the thumbs up on an album's approval. Maybe Ralph would know. I think it would explain why some albums were excellent like More Hits and Love Child and why others were sub-par like Let The Sunshine In.

I think Billie Jean Brown's department was in charge of compiling the albums.

[Ollie9]

Diana would've fallen on her face, and so would the other Supremes. There's a reason why Diana left when she did and not a minute before: she wasn't ready. If Gordy had thought Diana was ready for prime time alone:

a) He would've signed her as a solo artist and told the other Primettes to hit the door.

b) He wouldn't have bothered keeping the Supremes around for eight or so flops. He would've shown Flo and Mary the door and kept Diana when he made the official announcement that she was the lead singer.

c) He wouldn't have put up with a moment of the circumstances surrounding Flo's issues with the group. He would've pulled Diana out right then and there.

He didn't. He couldn't. And the story of Diana Ross is the better for it.

I absolutely agree in that the timing was perfect. By 1970, Diana had come along way vocally. There was a newfound strength and maturity to her voice when compared to Supremes recordings.

[Boogiedown]

TheMotownManiac [[https://soulfuldetroit.com/member.php?1927-TheMotownManiac)


I don’t know if you are familiar with this that came out in 1974, But this record was a game changer and it didn’t even chart. That’s what they needed, a big hit and a total makeover. They had the talent, but they didn’t have a fresh sound, like below: A fresh sound, the perfect vocal for radio and a full-blown production. If they had had the distribution this would’ve been a top-five or number one record.

https://youtu.be/kuY0zOVj5-s

but it was distributed by CBS , how do you top that ....

while I agree the sound is a pretty good representation of the developing TSOP sound, I suspect the main crowd that found the lyrical content entertaining was snot-nosed twinks convening in hot-spot bars that were turned off by being hit on by anyone over thirty [sugar daddies the exception], with not much appeal to an audience beyond that.


How about this one instead from the same LP:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oc_5oIEtL5Q

:)

[bradsupremes]

so here's another question - when did the "decline" with the albums really start? what was their high-water mark?

WDOLG and More Hits both were exceptional albums. some might argue that More Hits is the ultimate Sup album since it is nearly all new material, great harmonies by the girls, each song is a winner, and all HDH. WDOLG is very very good, although a bit more patchwork but holds together well

Symphony was a strong attempt to continue bridging the generation gap between teens and parents. well done although not a polished of productions as what HDH would do later on the Broadway to Hollywood. just as it is enjoyable to hear DMF grow and develop, this is a great example of how HDH grew

A Go Go gets the historic importance of the first lp by girls to go #1. and when reading the song listing, it's easy to see why. but do all of the productions stand up to the "supremes" level? some of the LA tunes just don't have the necessary punch. i wonder how many fans, after buying, sort of felt "hmmm i like but had hoped it would be a bit better"

HDH - IMO this album further adds to the disappointment felt by fans on A go Go. some superb songs here but some turds too. Always In My Heart is one of the worst things the original group recorded. one fan described it as the "march to the guillotine" song. so this lp is definitely uneven. and didn't match A Go Go sales

Reflections - and here we are with this patchwork set


so you could say that Reflections is a continuation of the decline started with A Go Go?

I think this goes back to my question about who selected the tracks for the albums. Were things really in decline for the girls or was it just Quality Control throwing tracks together and calling it an album? I think it’s the later. At this time the music industry was really focused in on singles and getting a hit record. Attention to making great albums didn’t come until the late 60s and early 70s although the Beatles were ahead of the curve by focusing on their albums much earlier. We all have created our own Supremes albums and swapping in vaulted material to make them more cohesive and stronger. Motown certainly did pay attention to albums, but when you look at Let The Sunshine In and see tracks going back to Florence’s time while “Stormy,” “A Little Breeze,” and “Am I Asking Too Much” are sitting in the vaults, you have to wonder if these albums were thrown together in a day and not much attention was paid to them.

[sup_fan]

I think this goes back to my question about who selected the tracks for the albums. Were things really in decline for the girls or was it just Quality Control throwing tracks together and calling it an album? I think it’s the later. At this time the music industry was really focused in on singles and getting a hit record. Attention to making great albums didn’t come until the late 60s and early 70s although the Beatles were ahead of the curve by focusing on their albums much earlier. We all have created our own Supremes albums and swapping in vaulted material to make them more cohesive and stronger. Motown certainly did pay attention to albums, but when you look at Let The Sunshine In and see tracks going back to Florence’s time while “Stormy,” “A Little Breeze,” and “Am I Asking Too Much” are sitting in the vaults, you have to wonder if these albums were thrown together in a day and not much attention was paid to them.

completely agree. especially on Sunshine and Cream. you could have gone through the vault inventory and carefully selected songs that appeared to have some sort of stylistic or commonality. something that sort of ties the lp together

but from what i've collected, that wasn't exactly the case with Reflections. now i'm sure there are songs that i don't know about or haven't come across [[come on EE!! lol) but based on the info i have, by late Feb 68, there wasn't a gigantic inventory of quality, appropriate tracks to fill out an album. at least assuming you're trying to work off of this new psychedelic soul sound of the title track. yes there are lots of canned "pop" songs and many were lined up for potential use on the canned Some Things You Never Get Used To. If Reflections [[the song) didn't exist and, perhaps, In and out Of Love was the follow up to Happening, you could have easily assembled a very upbeat and pop album:

In and out
all i know
going all the way
then
happening
misery makes
heaven must have sent you
up up and away
can't shake it loose
a little breeze
stay in my lonely arms
treat me nice

[Spreadinglove21]

I don't think creating excellent albums was a priority of Motown, just solid enough, commercial product.

One of the ironies is that while the quality of Supremes albums from 66 to 69 were merely alright, The Marvelettes, hardly a priority of Motown, turned out two excellent albums, Pink album and Sophisticated Soul, during this time.

[TNSUN]

"Always in My Heart" is a great song with tender vocals. Actually, it is the gold standard type of song for infatuation exercises.

[Boogiedown]

It wasn’t like Republicans today who won’t let their kids watch Snow White anymore, all the scintilla of the Fanbase would buy any music they wanted to hear regardless of billing.
.
Ah you're just hooked on the kinky fantasy of some pretty young thing shacking up with seven unmarried dwarfs deep in the forest :p

https://www.hollywoodintoto.com/7-films-woke-mob-blazing-saddles/

[sup_fan]

"Always in My Heart" is a great song with tender vocals. Actually, it is the gold standard type of song for infatuation exercises.

Always In My Heart is a funeral dirge. lol I can literally hear it being played in the background [[especially that death knell of a drum beat) as Marie Antionette's ramshackle cart creaked up to the base of the guillotine and she ascended the steps lol

i'm shocked that it was picked as the flip for Come See. It's All Your Fault could have been a perfectly fine backing track

[RanRan79]

I absolutely agree in that the timing was perfect. By 1970, Diana had come along way vocally. There was a newfound strength and maturity to her voice when compared to Supremes recordings.

Yeah. Prior to the name change, Diana was the something extra in an exciting singing group. Once the name changed, and there was a clear plan on the table, Diana started to ramp up the extra, which included stretching her wings vocally, visibly, and just all around honing the magic that would make her one of the greatest stars of all time. Had she left prematurely...yikes. Hell, even after she did leave, until Lady Sings, it was kind of up in the air about how well this thing was going to take off. Thank God it did, for us fans.

[RanRan79]

"Always in My Heart" is a great song with tender vocals.

I agree that it's a great song. Diana's lead, coupled with the lyrics and the track make for a beautifully somber cut. Horrible fit on the album though. While there are other songs on HDH that I dislike, "Always In My Heart" is the song I feel is the least representative of what the tracklist should have been. The album version of "Heat Wave" is so dull in comparison to the original that I think it should have stayed in the vault, but at least it does kind of fit with every thing else.

[144man]

I'm on the negative side of the "Always In My Heart" argument. It is so relentlessly dull.

[daviddh]

I really like side 1
Side 2 , has to many covers

[PeaceNHarmony]

I really like side 1
Side 2 , has to many coversI'm not really a fan of the outside-Motown covers ... there are a few gems, but very few.

[Ollie9]

I'm on the negative side of the "Always In My Heart" argument. It is so relentlessly dull.

Tell me about it lol. A little goes a long way is how i would summarise the song.

[BayouMotownMan]

These are worldwide sales that include re-issues and such. At the time of it's release I don't think Reflections hit the 200K sales mark. More like 125K to 150K. Still a good seller just not what the group was used to.

[daviddh]

what if side 2 had the Flo left overs,
the Happening
let the music play
beginnin of the end
love makes me do foolish things
misery in my heart
what becomes of the broken hearted ,
and leave off the covers

[BayouMotownMan]

I don't know how much more money HDH deserved, considering they had to be making an enviable sum off of the massive hits they wrote and produced, but I think it was a bit stingy of Gordy not to compromise by giving them their own label under the Motown umbrella based off of just how much HDH's personal success elevated Motown's, and by extension, Gordy.

That's just the thing, Gordy knew more success of their HDH imprint meant more money demands and less control he would have over them. Gordy was no fool. One of the guys had been needling Gordy for a couple years with continued demands for more money. And of course other labels were courting HDH with big promises and this was always thrown in Gordy's face as well. But he learned from Mary Wells and their contracts were iron clad. Ironically in the 70s and part of the 80s the guys did work at other labels with little success.

HDH signed a contract and were held to that. Instead of just upping the contract they now wanted more perks such as their own label which, more than likely, Gordy would have bankrolled for them to get started and then they would have left him anyway. It was a tense situation in 67-68 for all concerned.

HDH made a lot of money, it is debatable if it was compensatory to the success they had with Motown. I think they went through most of it at Invictus. From what I gather all three struggled financially for years with Eddie Holland's condo in danger of foreclosure in the last few years. I think it also a matter of not knowing how to handle one's finances.

[sup_fan]

These are worldwide sales that include re-issues and such. At the time of it's release I don't think Reflections hit the 200K sales mark. More like 125K to 150K. Still a good seller just not what the group was used to.

yeah and that's sort of the curious point here. 1967 had built on an equally strong 1966. 66 had 2 top 10 singles and 2 #1 plus the first #1 album. 67 had 2 #1 and 2 top 10s plus a top 10 album and Greatest Hits which was massive.

Reflections certainly performed well enough. it performed great compared to albums by other groups. but after these great sales in 66 and 67, it was a let down i'm sure.

[bradsupremes]

yeah and that's sort of the curious point here. 1967 had built on an equally strong 1966. 66 had 2 top 10 singles and 2 #1 plus the first #1 album. 67 had 2 #1 and 2 top 10s plus a top 10 album and Greatest Hits which was massive.

Reflections certainly performed well enough. it performed great compared to albums by other groups. but after these great sales in 66 and 67, it was a let down i'm sure.

Like someone mentioned earlier, Motown waited too long to issue the Reflections album. The trip-up was that Motown originally intended "Reflections" to be issued on Greatest Hits. With it being pulled and held over for an album of its own, Motown released Greatest Hits in August 1967 and it dominated in sales and charts - staying in the top 10 for 24 weeks and well into the spring of 1968. Motown issuing another Supremes album to compete too soon would have hurt sales for both. They did wait too long though. A December/January release may have been the better option, but many tracks like "Forever Came Today" and "Bah-Bah-Bah" weren't complete. Motown could have easily substituted them with "Heaven Must Have Sent You" or "Stay In My Lonely Arms" if they were looking for other completed HDH tracks. But then you have to factor in Florence and HDH's departures. They really were in a damned if you do or damned if you don't situation.

[sup_fan]

Like someone mentioned earlier, Motown waited too long to issue the Reflections album. The trip-up was that Motown originally intended "Reflections" to be issued on Greatest Hits. With it being pulled and held over for an album of its own, Motown released Greatest Hits in August 1967 and it dominated in sales and charts - staying in the top 10 for 24 weeks and well into the spring of 1968. Motown issuing another Supremes album to compete too soon would have hurt sales for both. They did wait too long though. A December/January release may have been the better option, but many tracks like "Forever Came Today" and "Bah-Bah-Bah" weren't complete. Motown could have easily substituted them with "Heaven Must Have Sent You" or "Stay In My Lonely Arms" if they were looking for other completed HDH tracks. But then you have to factor in Florence and HDH's departures. They really were in a damned if you do or damned if you don't situation.

good point - GH was released in August and hit #1 in late Oct. was at 1 for 5 weeks and in the top 10 for 22 weeks. it was clearly THE motown album for the holiday season. I can only imagine how many teens and kids and fans found it under the tree that year. That puts it at March 68 when it was finally starting to creep out of the top 10. and given that it was 2 discs, the price was much higher than the 1 disc for Reflections. so the $ was really coming in from that release.

[Ollie9]

Like someone mentioned earlier, Motown waited too long to issue the Reflections album. The trip-up was that Motown originally intended "Reflections" to be issued on Greatest Hits. With it being pulled and held over for an album of its own, Motown released Greatest Hits in August 1967 and it dominated in sales and charts - staying in the top 10 for 24 weeks and well into the spring of 1968. Motown issuing another Supremes album to compete too soon would have hurt sales for both. They did wait too long though. A December/January release may have been the better option, but many tracks like "Forever Came Today" and "Bah-Bah-Bah" weren't complete. Motown could have easily substituted them with "Heaven Must Have Sent You" or "Stay In My Lonely Arms" if they were looking for other completed HDH tracks. But then you have to factor in Florence and HDH's departures. They really were in a damned if you do or damned if you don't situation.

Good points, though a Reflections album minus “Bah Bah Bah” is unthinkable. One of my faves on the album. :)

[Sotosound]

Good points, though a Reflections album minus “Bah Bah Bah” is unthinkable. One of my faves on the album. :)
Mine too. Great and very forward-looking track.

[TheMotownManiac]

Ah you're just hooked on the kinky fantasy of some pretty young thing shacking up with seven unmarried dwarfs deep in the forest :p

https://www.hollywoodintoto.com/7-films-woke-mob-blazing-saddles/

After I got the chance to actually try that, I was disappointed. I went back to Prince Charming in a heartbeat and put up with his antics for the next 30 years.

[TheMotownManiac]

but it was distributed by CBS , how do you top that ....

while I agree the sound is a pretty good representation of the developing TSOP sound, I suspect the main crowd that found the lyrical content entertaining was snot-nosed twinks convening in hot-spot bars that were turned off by being hit on by anyone over thirty [sugar daddies the exception], with not much appeal to an audience beyond that.


How about this one instead from the same LP:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oc_5oIEtL5Q

:)

I like it very much, but I think dirty old man is brilliant.

[TheMotownManiac]

I'm a huge 3 Degrees fan and have remarked in the forum previously my thoughts on their lack of success here in the States. The 70s Supremes' failures have been beaten to death. I was merely pointing out that, yes, in comparison to most other acts, what DRATS did in singles and album numbers was killer. But for them- competing against self, one might say- they just barely scrapped by "irrelevance". Likewise, the 70s Supremes did the same. Single for single, the 70s Supremes bested every other female group of the decade. Unfortunately they failed to score that massive "When Will I See You Again", "Lady Marmalade", "Best of My Love" mega hit. But on paper the 70s Supremes did fairly well, considering how dismal female groups often performed in the 70s for some extremely odd reason.

I think you are younger than I am, so you might not have been around for this. By 1969 and certainly into the 70s, the women’s movement was in full swing. Glitzing around in sequin dresses, or parading around in hot pants or other ways to lure customers was a turn off to a large segment of the population. There were women who stop shaving their legs and pits, the organic granola Carole King/Helen Reddy music was very very popular. Even Karen Carpenter wore granny dresses and played the drums and I don’t think girl groups knew how to present themselves anymore. Labelle wisely embraced the rockstar persona, but they couldn’t get the material to sustain. The Pointer Sisters finally came up with a formula that worked.

[sup_fan]

I think you are younger than I am, so you might not have been around for this. By 1969 and certainly into the 70s, the women’s movement was in full swing. Glitzing around in sequin dresses, or parading around in hot pants or other ways to lure customers was a turn off to a large segment of the population. There were women who stop shaving their legs and pits, the organic granola Carole King/Helen Reddy music was very very popular. Even Karen Carpenter wore granny dresses and played the drums and I don’t think girl groups knew how to present themselves anymore. Labelle wisely embraced the rockstar persona, but they couldn’t get the material to sustain. The Pointer Sisters finally came up with a formula that worked.

in general there was a shift away from the formality and glamour of the earlier 60s. gone were the more formal dresses, suits and ties. pop artists were getting more casual, grungier, long hair, ditch formal social norms.

The sups had sort of held on with their sophisticated look into the late 60s but it was already being viewed as "too much"

in the early 70s, the group did well enough with some of their pop singles but the image of the group will adrift. it wasn't until the disco era took off that sequins and flashiness returned

[sup_fan]

i still think there was an opportunity for the Sups to do their version of "women's lib." of course they were never going to be wildly militant and all. but Pam Sawyer had worked heavily with Frank Wilson on many of the groups and other's hits and recordings. in addition, two of the "Promises Kept" tracks were by/involved Pam. Ohh My Poor Baby, I'll Have To Let Him Know - both of which are among the strongest tracks from this period IMO

after Touch, what if motown paired it's top girl group with some of the labels top female producers/writers? that could have generated quite some PR interest and helped advance their public image? given them something new, significant and interesting?

[Boogiedown]

After I got the chance to actually try that, I was disappointed. I went back to Prince Charming in a heartbeat and put up with his antics for the next 30 years.
:p

you should've known that a guy who takes advantage of a passed out woman is no Prince Charming.:p

[Boogiedown]

I like it very much, but I think dirty old man is brilliant.

I'll respect your conclusion :cool:

[daviddh]

personally i thought A GO GO was the weak album and SING HDH was the better of the 2.
i would have combined the two of them

[jobeterob]

personally i thought A GO GO was the weak album and SING HDH was the better of the 2.
i would have combined the two of them

I agree although I would not have combined them

[George Solomon]

I might be in the minority here, but I think even if Florence and HDH had stayed and the name hadn't been changed, there would have been a natural "slow down." How many really maintain the kind of white hot streak The Supremes enjoyed in the first few years? It might not have been what they were used to but six top 10 singles [[Four of them being #1 or #2) in less than two and a half years is pretty good by any standards. I guess I'm looking at the glass as half full.

[TheMotownManiac]

I might be in the minority here, but I think even if Florence and HDH had stayed and the name hadn't been changed, there would have been a natural "slow down." How many really maintain the kind of white hot streak The Supremes enjoyed in the first few years? It might not have been what they were used to but six top 10 singles [[Four of them being #1 or #2) in less than two and a half years is pretty good by any standards. I guess I'm looking at the glass as half full.

Absolutely, with 3 of those over the 2 Million mark - my guess is that only the Beatles and the monkeys had a better track record in the US at that time. And as you said, no group keeps up that pace indefinitely, especially a history making run of hits. That being said, the groups style and image was causing some fans to bail, their album sales are indicative of that, but that’s not the only reason of course because the albums were not as commercially accessible.

[daviddh]

I agree although I would not have combined them
there were strong songs on side 1 to Go Go but the rest seemed just ok, while Sing HDH seemed like a better album
on HDH i would replace the 2 covers , heatwave and Same Old Song with This Old heart of Mine ,Shake Me Wake Me and maybe one other

[daviddh]

I might be in the minority here, but I think even if Florence and HDH had stayed and the name hadn't been changed, there would have been a natural "slow down." How many really maintain the kind of white hot streak The Supremes enjoyed in the first few years? It might not have been what they were used to but six top 10 singles [[Four of them being #1 or #2) in less than two and a half years is pretty good by any standards. I guess I'm looking at the glass as half full.
totally agree, every groups has it slow down,and the Supremes actually stayed top ten way into 1971

[BayouMotownMan]

I have said this as well many times, while losing Flo and HDH had its impacts, the group was heading for a slow down. While Forever Came Today is a complex production it seems to show that the producers were becoming less inventive and therefore went over the top with the orchestration. It was just too busy of a recording. If memory serves me this was the first Supremes song not played on Bandstand. It just wasn't danceable.

I feel strongly by mid 1968 Gordy would have experimented with different producers even if HDH had remained. Had Some Things You Never Get Used To done better, Ashford and Simpson could likely have inherited them just based on their string of hits with Gaye/Terrell. And who knows what would have happened if Johnny Bristol had gotten control of the group sooner.

[sup_fan]

completely agree this is all relative. just like the 70s sups had 4 gold records, lots of top tv appearances, strong chart action. if it was any other group, including any other motown group, that would be considered a great run.

but these big periods of change made for interesting and engaging "what if" discussions.

Bayou - you comment about Some Things is dead right. and i think Some Things was one of the weakest of tracks A&S did at the time. Destination Anywhere could have been a huge hit for the Supremes. I'm A Winner [[which Diana later covered) could have worked too. Some Thing would have worked as an album track. but not a single

[sup_fan]

I have said this as well many times, while losing Flo and HDH had its impacts, the group was heading for a slow down. While Forever Came Today is a complex production it seems to show that the producers were becoming less inventive and therefore went over the top with the orchestration. It was just too busy of a recording. If memory serves me this was the first Supremes song not played on Bandstand. It just wasn't danceable.

question is did HDH intend it for a single? and same with In and Out? were they still actively involved in this or were they already MIA to some degree?

in 65 [[other than the specialty projects like Xmas, Tribute to the girls, Sam Cooke, etc) nearly everything is HDH. Smokey got a production in with Take Me Where You Go and Too Much A Little too soon, Clarence Paul did Slow Down

in 66, they opened the group up a bit more to others. Frank and Hal did those cover tunes with all of the A Go Go sessions. Smokey and Frank did Misery Makes Its Home. then in July you have more Frank and Clarence and others doing more covers - Misunderstanding, come on and see me, etc. henry Cosby doing With A Child's Heart

67 still sees mostly HDH but a few here and there with Deke, Smokey, and a couple others. Don't Forget Motor City still lists things in Oct, Nov and Dec 67 as being completed by HDH. but were they? or were others stepping in during the absence?

[bradsupremes]

question is did HDH intend it for a single? and same with In and Out? were they still actively involved in this or were they already MIA to some degree?

HDH were still at Motown when "In And Out Of Love" was released so likely they would have been pushing for it. "Forever Came Today" wasn't completed until after HDH left Motown. Diana's lead was added late December and background vocals in January 1968 with R. Dean Taylor supervising those sessions. HDH's last session at Motown was overseeing the background vocals being added to "I'm In A Different World" for the Four Tops. That was mid-December 1967 and after that they disappear from the session logs. Whether they intended for "Forever" to be their next single is unknown. Likely Motown was in a panic and pulled it since it was the latest HDH song/production on them. Motown considered Holland-Dozier production led "What The World Needs Now Is Love" as the follow-up to "Forever," but smartly realized they needed to new material and not what was in the can from HDH.

I always wondered if "Heaven Must Have Sent You" was considered for a single in place of "Forever." It would be interesting to know if there are mono references mixes in the vault. "Heaven" has a lot going for it and certainly a lot of potential. It likely would have charted much better.

[Thornton]

I think "I'm Gonna Make It" would have been a much stronger single. I also like "Heaven Must Have Sent You" a lot too. It's on my Reflections playlist.

[sup_fan]

to me Heaven is a great song but dated. it's very 1966 IMO and by late 67 and into 68, the girls needed something new and fresh. of course Reflections [[the single) was just that in summer 67. i don't think In and out really hit the mark. it's fine enough but after something so interesting, it's a let down.

the other "reflections-esque" songs on the lp are interesting but most feel incomplete to me. i think Bah Bah is the most interesting. I'm gonna make it, i can't make it alone, am i asking too much - are fine enough for an album but needed something more to make them singles. they were in the vein of Reflections but didn't really go anywhere with the sound or style

[BayouMotownMan]

Based on what Eddie Holland and Lamont Dozier said about FCT, it was produced with having it as a single in mind. But they went on strike before the production was finished. I get the feeling the original concept of the song was different than what was eventually released. It seems, I heard at least that Deke Richards finished the song

[daviddh]

with all the above info, this is why i love these expanded editions. i am hoping ,maybe one day ,we might get Reflections expanded

[TomatoTom123]

I think "Forever Came Today" is a really good song. I think it is the third-best song on Reflections behind the title track and "In and Out of Love". I can understand, though, that it doesn’t feel or sound entirely single-ready. But it's still a very good song to my ears.

It would have been interested if HDH had stayed and “finished it”! :D

[nomis]

The album artwork didn't help..bit of a hot mess imo

[TheMotownManiac]

I don't think creating excellent albums was a priority of Motown, just solid enough, commercial product.

One of the ironies is that while the quality of Supremes albums from 66 to 69 were merely alright, The Marvelettes, hardly a priority of Motown, turned out two excellent albums, Pink album and Sophisticated Soul, during this time.

As did Martha with Sugar n Spice, Natural Resources, and finally, Black Magic.

[sup_fan]

i wouldn't personally list Sugar or Natural as great albums. Black Magic is though - it's wonderful

[reese]

i wouldn't personally list Sugar or Natural as great albums. Black Magic is though - it's wonderful

I tend to think of the Marvelettes' IN FULL BLOOM and the Vandellas' SUGAR AND SPICE and NATURAL RESOURCES albums in much the same way as I think most of the Supremes' post-Flo albums. All of them have some great songs but for me, they lack that special something that the earlier albums had.

But I do agree: BLACK MAGIC is a stunning album.

[sup_fan]

I tend to think of the Marvelettes' IN FULL BLOOM and the Vandellas' SUGAR AND SPICE and NATURAL RESOURCES albums in much the same way as I think most of the Supremes' post-Flo albums. All of them have some great songs but for me, they lack that special something that the earlier albums had.

But I do agree: BLACK MAGIC is a stunning album.

exactly - i think they're typical and acceptable albums. but aren't stunning, just as Sunshine and Cream are not amazing.

[johnjeb]

My favorite Martha & the Vandellas albums are Watchout!, which is my favorite Motown album after WDOLG, and Ridin' High. I was disappointed with their next two albums but love Black Magic.

[daviddh]

come on universal. if you out of the expanded business, can we get maybe a combo ,....reflections,... love child ...cream