The Hollands at Motown as independents

[Kamasu_Jr]

Have we discussed how the Holland brothers [[Brian & Eddie) went back to Motown as independent producers in the 1970s? It's mentioned briefly in the liner notes of the Supremes' The Final Sessions, but not discussed in detail. Was Motown trying to catch lightening in a bottle twice or trying to settle some of the lawsuit the Hollands & Lamont ozier had against it.

When you look back at it, the arrangement didn't produce any major hits, although the Hollands got wo work with the Supremes, the Jackson 5 plus Michael and the Temptations again. Strange they weren't paired with Diana Ross or Marvin Gaye, who was basically producing himself by 1975.

The arrangement saw some talents like Michael Lovesmith, who was signed to the Hollands, produce albums for Motown.

Were the Hollands paid upfront for their work and does anyone know how much they charged?

Lamont Dozier was also working indepepently.

What is the general opinion of the Hollands' second time at Motown? Did it add to their legacy; Or should they have stayed away?

[144man]

I can remember liking Eddie Kendricks' "Come Get the Cream Off the Top" and Diana Ross' "We Can Never Light That Old Flame Again", but somehow the old magic wasn't there without Lamont Dozier.

[Glenpwood]

I thought they did work with Diana, it just got shelved. Isn't Water Don't Burn on the "Diana" Deluxe Edition a Holland production?

The Hollands second term at Motown is bound to seem slight by comparison to their sixties run but that's only because the sheer amount of classics they produced during that first go round. Granted, "High Energy" is no "Love Is Like An Itching In My Heart" but it's still a great song and was in the right pocket sonically for its era. It's like picking apart every new Paul McCartney album and saying there's no "Yesterday" here even if theres plenty of quality material on it.

[bradsupremes]

I always thought some of the Holland brothers work in the 70's return to Motown had potential to be big hits. Michael Jackson's "We're Almost There" and the Supremes' "I'm Gonna Let My Heart Do The Walking" have certain quality about them that say number one hit. They're both outstanding songs and I think the reason why they didn't climb higher on the charts was due to the fact that Motown wasn't pushing the singles. I think if Motown really threw themselves behind those two songs, both Michael and the Supremes would have had big hits.

[telekin]

I also thought the Hollands, Brian Holland particularly, were very underrated as producers during this time. Aside from the Supremes stuff, which I love, there was a lot of other good stuff like the album he did for Jr. Walker: Hot Shot, Moving Violation by the J5, as well as I Can't Go On Living Without Your Love for Thelma Houston and some of the tracks they did for Three Ounces of Love [[ie. "I've Got A Right To Be Loved" in a very latter day Supremes style). I don't think they should have stayed away. They may not had any massive hits, but at least they put out some strong material that we can still look to and appreciate today. I thought it was fitting that The Supremes ended up going out with [[part of) the same team that really brought them in..

Personally, what I'm curious about is how they were still able to promote themselves as Holland-Dozier-Holland productions, when Lamont Dozier was no longer involved. I know on Supremes '75 at least, credit is given to Holland-Dozier-Holland productions first [[ie. produced by Holland-Dozier-Holland productions, producer: Brian Holland) to trade on the HDH name recognition, even if it was slightly misleading. To this day, I still hear/read people wrongly refer to the Supremes' disco material as HDH productions.

[smark21]

Could one argue that in the 60's, HDH were setting trends in pop and r and B music production, but in the mid 70's, it seems they were trying to keep up with what was current, rather than setting the standard?

[telekin]

Could one argue that in the 60's, HDH were setting trends in pop and r and B music production, but in the mid 70's, it seems they were trying to keep up with what was current, rather than setting the standard?

I think that's a legitimate argument. I'd say that even if they weren't the trendsetters that they once were, they still put out very good, if not excellent product. I'd probably extend that argument to the entire Motown label at the time, as well. The Holland Brothers weren't the golden boys that they once were, but by the same token, Motown wasn't the label that it once was either.

From the 70's onward, it seems Motown was always a bit slow to catch on to new trends [[which left the label in dire straits by the time of its sale in 1988). Disco was one example of this. While there were a lot of good dance records [[and significant disco hits) on the label, Motown still lagged early on, and from what I can tell, never really promoted them with the same creativity and force that labels like Casablanca, Prelude or Salsoul and majors like Atlantic were able to. Even though there were many great records on Motown, along with some major hits in the late 70's/early 80's, they were never as influential as they were in the 60's.

[daddyacey]

I can agree with what both "smark 21" and "telikin" have posted.
The return of HDH to Motown ,IMO was like ..[[now use your imagination) , you was having mega sex and you stopped to go to the bathroom. It's damn near impossible to get that groove back. Know what I'm saying? The whole lawsuit and Invictus/Hot Wax issues and the passage of time and change in the music played a big part in the going back to the recapture or continue the" just as great as what it was" idea. That however does not take away from the fact that HDH could not or did not produce quality product the second time around. It only shows in retrospect how Berry's failure to provide them with a sub label within MOTOWN was a major mistake. The fact that HDH did have the sucsess they did have with INVICTUS/HOT WAX without the support of MOTOWN and would have had more of a chance to survive with being a part of MOTOWN ,shows that I.M.O. The second time around does not always work out to being sucsessful results. Especially when both parties were the pioneers of the original state of the art at one time and others have come along and emulated as well as added to what you have created. I always believe that it is hard to out do yourself. The curse that comes with being a pioneer or being #1 at anything is that as just being #1 ,there is always that M.F. out there looking to equal and or top you. That's the nature of any game.

[theboyfromxtown]

Did you guys pick up on the Mavis Staples album. Loved it

I bought all those subsequent releases Boyz of Detroit, Cassandra, Rick Littleton, Bryan Carter, Liquid Heat etc

[reese]

Did you guys pick up on the Mavis Staples album. Loved it

I bought all those subsequent releases Boyz of Detroit, Cassandra, Rick Littleton, Bryan Carter, Liquid Heat etc

The Mavis Staples project had some good tracks on it. In the US, only LOVE GONE BAD was issued at the time [[1984). The rest of the material wasn't released until the 90s when she became somewhat popular again with her Prince material. Was it released in the 80s in the UK?

[theboyfromxtown]

Not to my knowledge Reese. I got the 45 when it was out and then, as you say, the album followed a long time later.

But by that time, US Brits could get US releases almost as easy as domestic releases. I only remember the Liquid Heat being a hard album to find but my US pals were always good to me and found it after a determined search.

[Kamasu_Jr]

Could one argue that in the 60's, HDH were setting trends in pop and r and B music production, but in the mid 70's, it seems they were trying to keep up with what was current, rather than setting the standard?

Interesting points. I had forgotten some of the other songs, the Hollands produced for Motown like Get the Cream Off The Top. Their songwriting and production had changed so radically by 1875 that it's hard to believe they were the same guys who wrote and produced Stop! In the Name Of Love, Ask the Lonely and Reflections. Tunes like Get the Cream Off the Top were very bold sexually and explicit. Maybe it had to do with the times or the absence of Lamont Dozier?
I'd still like to know who was involved in the Holland's returning to work at Motown?
Was Berry Gordy still involved on a daily basis or did they return because someone else was in charge?
Intersting that Motown did not solidly promote and of the Hollands' seventies productions. As Smark21 and Telekin said, maybe it was because the Hollands and Motown no longer dominated popular music in 1975-76, the way they had in 1965.

[chestersong]

i didn't know the Hollands had been writing songs since "1875"; what a nice long career ;) the style you speak of must explain why the supremes went from singing "la la la" on "Ask Any Girl" to a grunting and a groaning on "Sweet Dream Machine", alternate version!

[motown01]

What's the story with 'We Can Never Light That Old Flame Again'? Was it released to capitalize on the success of another RCA single release?

[theboyfromxtown]

Kamasu

Do you recall that well publicised picture of HDH versus Norman Whitfield - Four Tops versus The Temptations?

I would guess, My Gordy wasn't too far away.

[reese]

What's the story with 'We Can Never Light That Old Flame Again'? Was it released to capitalize on the success of another RCA single release?

I read that it was recorded in 1978. But from the sound of Diana's voice, I would say it's a few years earlier. It was released in 1982, in between Diana's RCA singles WORK THAT BODY and MUSCLES.