Mary Wilson Solo LP

[marybrewster]

I've never heard of any "outtakes" from this album, and I'm certain if there were, they would have been included in the new Anthology. Interesting though then that there were only seven tracks recorded for her solo debut? A run time of just over a half hour.

I can't imagine then that the actual recording of this album was a long process? Seems like she could have cut all of these in just a couple of days or one weekend?

I hope the 44 page booklet gives more insight to this release.

[REDHOT]

I can't wait to get Mary Wilson's Anthology cd in my hands.

[sup_fan]

it seems that extra tracks became increasing rare. there was only 1 from Surrender. there's supposedly 1 from Floy Joy. with Sup 75 there were a bunch but with HE and MSS not really. certainly alt vocals and mixes. but not completely new, different tracks. same goes for The Boss and diana 80.

now there could very well have been more songs rehearsed and explored. maybe Hal sat down with mary and they worked through 9 or 10 songs and then went with the 7 or 8 on the lp. At this time, they often used longer tracks on the lps than in the 60s so they didn't need as many to begin with

[sup_fan]

also additional tracks add to studio costs. Mary hypothesized in her book that motown gave her the recording contract in order to get her to drop her lawsuit. if that was the case, they would have most likely approached her album with the idea of keeping costs at a minimum. she was assigned to work with Hal and he might have been assigned a short amount of studio time and very limited budget to work with.

think about the stories Deke told with Everything Is Everything. he was given a very very short window to work with. Berry wanted an lp ASAP. he states in the booklet that had he had more time, he might have come up with more original material.

so for the MW album, if Hal was given a short window and small budget, he might have just taken existing tracks or things he had on the shelf and had her quickly record them. Also it's easier, cheaper and faster to simply extend a song with more instrumental breaks in order to pad out an album rather than coming up with an 8th or 9th song.

my guess is motown wanted to invest as little as possible in this project. they had no intentions of promoting Mary as a solo artist, no intentions of doing much promotion of her album and no intentions of a long-term career with mary.

[Boogiedown]

I have mixed thoughts about time frames concerning album making.
Deadlines and pressure can sometimes force productivity in a good way. Provides momentum and demands problem solving . It can also create a natural progression from the recent past project.
Some of the best songs , most popular , have historically been almost afterthoughts in the studio , where one more song was needed or there was spare time remaining in the recording session. More on the fly, than methodically thought out.
[a thread of that, a listing of those type of hit songs, could be interesting]
I know I perform best under pressure or else I tend to linger as can happen … thinking too of Marvin Gaye ….
Sometimes when so much time has passed there can be a Disconnect from an artist’s previous performance and it’s hard to regain interest from listeners who have moved on.
It’d be interesting to analyze Mary’s situation at the time. She’d been through A LOT those past ten years.
I imagine she was so grateful for this opportunity , she just put her trust in the hands of Hal Davis hoping he could provide the magic. I doubt she had much opportunity to provide input , or was given much time for strategy, this probably felt like a lifesaver had been tossed to her.

[BayouMotownMan]

It's confusing to know what was going on with Motown in terms of Mary's debut lp. The week it was released Motown purchased an entire billboard for the lp over Tower Records in LA. The billboard apparently ate up the entire promotion budget.

I was a dj during this time and we neither received the lp or single, I had to buy it. Same was true for Scherrie and Susaye. I would call Skip Miller or Marlene Reyes monthly in Motown's promotion dept to see what was new as I always gave special consideration to their music. In Sept 1979 I was talking with Marlene and she was pushing Switch, the Commodores and Smokey. When I asked about Mary's lp her response was "oh yea, she has a new album too."

What appears obvious to me was that all the legalities brought on by Mary and Pedro cost Motown a lot of money and made Mary nearly homeless. So Motown offered each lady a solo contract in order to drop all the lawsuits. Hal Davis had not had a hit record since Don't Leave Me This Way so he was just a house producer now. Mary's lp was rushed out and besides the mural there was no promotion. I remember one dj in Colorado played Red Hot and it was catching on when a promotion man from Motown called him and said not to play it that he was sending the new Commodores single. It is possible the Tower mural was meant to cirumvent a future lawsuit, Motown could use it as proof of promotion.

In an effort to economize, Motown presented Scherrie and Susaye as a duo. Most of the material on their lp had been recorded as solo tracks with the other lady dubbing her voice over the track.

Both lps were contract breakers, a way for Motown to get the ladies out of the company.

[Boogiedown]

It's confusing to know what was going on with Motown in terms of Mary's debut lp. The week it was released Motown purchased an entire billboard for the lp over Tower Records in LA. The billboard apparently ate up the entire promotion budget.

I was a dj during this time and we neither received the lp or single, I had to buy it. Same was true for Scherrie and Susaye. I would call Skip Miller or Marlene Reyes monthly in Motown's promotion dept to see what was new as I always gave special consideration to their music. In Sept 1979 I was talking with Marlene and she was pushing Switch, the Commodores and Smokey. When I asked about Mary's lp her response was "oh yea, she has a new album too."

What appears obvious to me was that all the legalities brought on by Mary and Pedro cost Motown a lot of money and made Mary nearly homeless. So Motown offered each lady a solo contract in order to drop all the lawsuits. Hal Davis had not had a hit record since Don't Leave Me This Way so he was just a house producer now. Mary's lp was rushed out and besides the mural there was no promotion. I remember one dj in Colorado played Red Hot and it was catching on when a promotion man from Motown called him and said not to play it that he was sending the new Commodores single. It is possible the Tower mural was meant to cirumvent a future lawsuit, Motown could use it as proof of promotion.

In an effort to economize, Motown presented Scherrie and Susaye as a duo. Most of the material on their lp had been recorded as solo tracks with the other lady dubbing her voice over the track.

Both lps were contract breakers, a way for Motown to get the ladies out of the company.

Wow !
This is most fascinating , it also strikes me as a bit strange.
Where were you DJing Bayou? Sounds like you were in the LA area as you witnessed the billboard on Sunset.
Was it radio or a club ??

[marybrewster]

In the land of what ifs, I wonder what the outcome would have been if Mary ditched the solo record and proceeded with the lawsuit. Looking back now, it's so obvious that once Mary signed the dotted line, she was doomed. She she really expect a company she was fighting with was going to do her right?

[RanRan79]

In the land of what ifs, I wonder what the outcome would have been if Mary ditched the solo record and proceeded with the lawsuit. Looking back now, it's so obvious that once Mary signed the dotted line, she was doomed. She she really expect a company she was fighting with was going to do her right?

My guess is that Mary had a case and Motown knew it and didn't want to imagine what a court ruling would look like. On top of that, as the case moved on, that's more legal fees racking up. And if Motown was having a bit of financial issues as has been rumored, settling the suit made the most business sense. As I've said before, Gordy knew Mary. He knew what made her tick. He'd known her since she was 16, just a baby. At that point in life Mary wanted a solo career, where she could just be Mary Wilson without the Supremes and stand on her own. Gordy knew if he dangled that carrot, Mary would follow it wherever he tossed it.

When Flo was offered a solo contract with Motown she was wise enough to know that was an idiotic move, and she believed in her own talent and probably figured she could sign anywhere. We know Mary had esteem issues where her talent was concerned and I can imagine the thought of shopping herself to other labels was scary. On top of that, Motown, even with all it's faults, was still home and family. It may have made some sense to her to try it with the devil she knew vs the one she didn't. Unfortunately, even Stevie Wonder probably saw that Motown wasn't interested in doing Mary any favors. She should have gambled on the case, or at least gotten a monetary settlement, put her mind in the game and found another label. Mary had a talent that someone somewhere could've used and turned her into, at the very least, a marginally successful recording artist. But as I always say: being successful in the music business is upwards of 90 percent luck. Some folks have a ton of it, while others have very little, if any at all. Recording wise, post Supremes Mary had a ton of bad luck.

[BayouMotownMan]

Motown had starved Mary and Pedro and three kids into virtual poverty. She lost her mansion in Hancock Park and was living with an abusive husband and three kids in a one bedroom, cramped apartment. Mary's only income was from performances a at fraction of what she used to make with the Supremes. Most bookings were overseas where Motown wasn't as successful at getting her bookings cancelled as they were in the USA. It was just such an ugly time.

Mary had little choice but to trust Motown and sign the solo recording contract. She was 35 and was considered basically a washed-up background singer in LA. There was no interest from other record companies.

After Motown dumped her in 1980, and that was always their intention, Mary basically spent the rest of her life trying to secure a recording contract with another label. Little to no interest. Over ten years later she got a small record label to sign her and right after releasing her second solo lp, which was a good record, they went bankrupt. She did a few recordings for Ian Levine which were contentious.

Like Flo, Mary was treated with disdain by record company execs, mostly because Motown put out the word. She did not deserve this. As time went on Mary's vocals became more powerful and her concert reviews improved. It should have been record labels fighting over her, and Flo as well.

[Boogiedown]

This is what I see at discogs:

The song, RED HOT was remixed and extended into a special 12" version, commissioned by DJ Rusty Garner , that was available for purchase in the US, Canada and the UK. Those same three countries pressed promo copies for clubs , DJs, record stores etc...., the US promo being pressed on special red 'hot' vinyl.

The 45 for RED HOT had promo [radio] copies made in the US and the UK.
The 45 was pressed commercially in the US , Canada, UK , Portugal, Netherlands, Italy and Spain.

No mention of the album punched as promos but the LP was pressed in 8 countries:
US UK Canada France Portugal Germany Argentina Spain

A second single PICK UP THE PIECES was released in the UK in 1980 with both a commercial and promo pressing.

* added: curiously on the PICK UP THE PIECES 45 label: co-production is given to Bobby Belle. No involvement by him was credited on the LP.

[Spreadinglove21]

All 7 songs on her debut were written by the same writers: Frank Busey and John Duarte. What else did they ever write together? Were they Motown staff writers?

After finally hearing the album earlier this year, I still have a feeling that I've Got What You Need, You make me Feel so Good, and You're the Light that Guides My way are pretty much the same song as they sound very similar to one another.

[Boogiedown]

All 7 songs on her debut were written by the same writers: Frank Busey and John Duarte. What else did they ever write together? Were they Motown staff writers?

After finally hearing the album earlier this year, I still have a feeling that I've Got What You Need, You make me Feel so Good, and You're the Light that Guides My way are pretty much the same song as they sound very similar to one another.


Yes this is most odd, a couple of nobodies- for a lack of a better word- , suddenly writing every song: MOST BIZARRE.

I wonder if Mary was sort of clueless about music beyond her role as a Supreme. Surely when offered the chance to do her ow album she was asked , "Are there any songs you'd like to do on this?", or surely she must've said "I've always wanted to sing "______".

She wasn't used to having this opportunity .....hers was a history of singing what was handed to her.

Now why these two chums were chosen exclusively would be most interesting to know.

[BayouMotownMan]

Yes this is most odd, a couple of nobodies- for a lack of a better word- , suddenly writing every song: MOST BIZARRE.

I wonder if Mary was sort of clueless about music beyond her role as a Supreme. Surely when offered the chance to do her ow album she was asked , "Are there any songs you'd like to do on this?", or surely she must've said "I've always wanted to sing "______".

She wasn't used to having this opportunity .....hers was a history of singing what was handed to her.

Now why these two chums were chosen exclusively would be most interesting to know.

They were probably chosen by producer Hal Davis. Being that this was primarily a disco lp, there wasn't much emphasis put on lyrics.

i enjoy this album. It was well orchestrated but was issued when disco was waning. I still think Red Hot was the weakest track on the lp, I always considered it cheap disco. Very unimaginative. I would have picked an extended version of Midnight Dancer as the first single followed by Warm Summer Night and possibly I've Got What You Need as a third single

[Boogiedown]

They were probably chosen by producer Hal Davis.

i enjoy this album. It was well orchestrated but was issued when disco was waning. I still think Red Hot was the weakest track on the lp, I always considered it cheap disco. Very unimaginative. I would have picked an extended version of Midnight Dancer as the first single followed by Warm Summer Night and possibly I've Got What You Need as a third single

Very good .....but why?... why these two and for all the songs....surely Hal had a couple of potential tracks on reserve in his cache....in a similar way he dug up DONT LEAVE ME THIS WAY .

Is it a disco album , or an album that includes some disco??? I can't remember.
I could make a long list of classic songs from many genres done disco. And, I would think judging from LOVE HANGOVER and DON'T LEAVE , Hal would've been in tune to the idea that good lyrics can elevate a disco production.

My interpretation is Mary just showed up to sing some songs ....whatever they were... I hardly think it was a dream come true for her to sing some contrived disco tunes ...


It came off as 'cheap' disco [formula], exactly .... which also makes me wonder how important Art Wright was to Hal Davis' work ....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAIV7RhqbjI

[Ollie9]

Very good .....but why?... why these two and for all the songs....surely Hal had a couple of potential tracks on reserve in his cache....in a similar way he dug up DONT LEAVE ME THIS WAY .

Is it a disco album , or an album that includes some disco??? I can't remember.
I could make a long list of classic songs from many genres done disco. And, I would think judging from LOVE HANGOVER and DON'T LEAVE , Hal would've been in tune to the idea that good lyrics can elevate a disco production.

My interpretation is Mary just showed up to sing some songs ....whatever they were... I hardly think it was a dream come true for her to sing some contrived disco tunes ...


It came off as 'cheap' disco [formula], exactly .... which also makes me wonder how important Art Wright was to Hal Davis' work ....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAIV7RhqbjI

I think first and foremost Mary was was just mega relieved to be recording her first solo album. I would also imagine Gordy had dictated the album be finalised ASAP, being keen to be rid of her. This would account for the lack of effort in finding quality songs.
At that point in time Mary didn’t have a clue where she was heading musically, so might well have thought why not disco. That lack of musical foresight was to cost her dear.
I agree with Bayou in that “Red Hot” probably killed any chance the album might have had.

[RanRan79]

It's unfortunate that the album didn't play to Mary's strengths as a vocalist. Personally, I'm not convinced that if Motown had handed her over to, for instance, James Anthony Carmichael, or even Smokey or Stevie or Marvin, that the resulting album would have found much success because Motown was disinterested in finding success for Mary Wilson. There may have been some buzz and interest, but ultimately the album would've sunk just like MW lp. But the difference between the MW album and one that might have been better produced in someone else's hands, had Mary recorded an album of songs that best showed who she was as a singer, had the album found critical acclaim even if a commercial failure, Mary could have used that album as a launch pad even after Motown dropped her. But I imagine any exec who held the minimal interest in signing Mary may have been put off by her last public work. The industry has always held tight to the "what have you done lately" motto, with few exceptions. The truth is that Mary Wilson was a new solo artist on the block, but she was a legend in the biz as a Supreme, a Supreme who more often than not was singing background. The MW album didn't do her any favors. The Gus D album should have been her ticket, yet once again luck was not on Mary's side.

[gordy_hunk]

I've always really liked Mary's solo LP. Strangely, I've never seen her perform any of the songs live - but I guess my first time seeing Mary perform was about 1990. After that time, I've managed to see her many times - each performance, you can tell she was enjoying entertaining the audience, and none of the "I'm a diva" attitude.

As soon as we're able to buy the Real Gone CD over here, I'll be ordering it.

Conversely I thought the "Partners" LP was absolutely hideous and just can't bear to listen to any of it.

Somehow - I can't remember who wrote it - but perhaps Motown wanted all three singers gone from their roster - and hence lack of support for Mary's LP, and just awful tracks given to the other two. I'm sorry, but I find the screeching on the "Partners" LP so painful for my ears!

[kenneth]

@gordy_hunk,

I always thought both albums suffered from being comprised almost entirely of original songs. I think both albums would have benefited more from the classic Motown album formula of including several Motown songs originally made famous by other artists, or a few modern standards. I will say that after seeing Scherrie Payne and Susaye Greene perform live twice, the songs they performed from their album come off better in a live setting than they did on the album itself. As with you however, having seen Mary Wilson perform a few times, I never heard her perform anything from her solo project.

[Spreadinglove21]

Lyrically I think Partners is much stronger than Mary's solo album. Especially Another Life From Now. In terms of production quality I prefer Mary's album.

If one doesn't like the songs on Partners, though, don't blame Motown. Scherrie and Susaye wrote the songs. They weren't handed to them to sing like Mary's album.

I really wonder what Mary thought at the time of the lyrics of the songs she recorded for this album? Her performance was certainly game and she gave it her all.

And what songs from the album were ever a part of her live show? I know Red Hot was for much of the 80s. And her Club New York New York debut show had Midnight Dancer and I Love a Warm Summer Night as well as Red Hot. I hope Pick Up the Pieces was part of the live show at some point as that's the only song on the album with lyrics with any sort of substance for a ballad specialist like Mary to sink her teeth into.

[Boogiedown]

I think first and foremost Mary was was just mega relieved to be recording her first solo album. I would also imagine Gordy had dictated the album be finalised ASAP, being keen to be rid of her. This would account for the lack of effort in finding quality songs.
At that point in time Mary didn’t have a clue where she was heading musically, so might well have thought why not disco. That lack of musical foresight was to cost her dear.
I agree with Bayou in that “Red Hot” probably killed any chance the album might have had.


But I would think almost every project was under the gun with deadlines, this was the norm , isn't that a big part of a producer's role to scout out material and organize studio time in a timely efficient way. A producer has to produce!! Hal Davis was no schlep , unless his talents really relied on his wrapping himself with qualified assistants, because it does seem as though by this time his skills had flattened .
I'd like to think he wasn't chosen for this job because Berry wanted the project to sink and choosing Davis would facilitate that. And I'd like to think that Hal Davis was the kind of guy that would give it his all, and not be part of some conspiracy to do Mary Wilson in.

So who the hell were Frank Busey and John Duarte that they be given such a huge chunk of the project ....the entirety of it. Why would Hal Davis think that a good idea? [shame on him!] It is absurd unless that really was the goal: to serve up Mary with a plate of crap.

But also shame on her to be so clueless as to what she wanted to record when the chance was given her . Mary didn't think to call up Ashford and Simpson, Pam Sawyer ....or whoever amongst all she had connections with .... and say "I really need a hot song" ....

Didn't she see from Flo's experience at ABC how important this was. ...."Oh well, I'll do disco [its working for Diane]"... there were easily thirteen hundred plus eager divas lined up competing for their turn to sing at the disco conga line ....

I can understand Mary being grateful , but she needed to take it much more seriously.

[marybrewster]

Mary performed "Midnight Dancer" on television several times, coincidentally once on an overseas disco competition show. IMO that's a much stronger track than "Red Hot" with all the cat howls and "woo-wees". Still, it would have been nice for her to include it in her shows.

[reese]

And what songs from the album were ever a part of her live show? I know Red Hot was for much of the 80s. And her Club New York New York debut show had Midnight Dancer and I Love a Warm Summer Night as well as Red Hot. I hope Pick Up the Pieces was part of the live show at some point as that's the only song on the album with lyrics with any sort of substance for a ballad specialist like Mary to sink her teeth into.

In 1987 or 1988, I saw Mary in concert for the first time. She did perform RED HOT but I remember it being rather sped up and sort of Vegas-y, with her bringing a fan on stage to dance with her.

[Spreadinglove21]

I did some googling and one of the writers of the Mary Wilson solo album wrote this "gem" for Tiffany in 1988.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqf6fP96gD8

[RanRan79]

Used to love me some Tiffany when I was a kid. Lol I kind of like "Radio Romance". It's no "I Think We're Alone Now", but it's late 80s fun kids stuff. Doesn't appear that the writers evolved much from Mary's album though, huh?

[Boogiedown]

I did some googling and one of the writers of the Mary Wilson solo album wrote this "gem" for Tiffany in 1988.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqf6fP96gD8

hoo boy. I wonder how Mary felt when she realized he’d held back his best from her.


https://youtu.be/i-bcn6Rwn44

[I wonder if a lawsuit was considered ]

[marybrewster]

Used to love me some Tiffany when I was a kid. Lol I kind of like "Radio Romance". It's no "I Think We're Alone Now", but it's late 80s fun kids stuff. Doesn't appear that the writers evolved much from Mary's album though, huh?

Ran, we must be from the same generation.....Tiffany was my jam! I was just listening to "All This Time" last night, lol.

[Boogiedown]

Mary performed "Midnight Dancer" on television several times, coincidentally once on an overseas disco competition show. IMO that's a much stronger track than "Red Hot" with all the cat howls and "woo-wees". Still, it would have been nice for her to include it in her shows.
A three minute plus disco song was absolutely pointless. No dj was going to bother with it. If you were going to go the disco angle with Mary , you needed to do it right.
The 12” should have been two sided with a six minute or more version of midnight dancer on the flip of red hot. It would have done better —- which is not to say it would’ve become a floor filler.
I don’t know why the successful disco veteran Hal Davis didn’t know better. If he submitted a longer version that got whittled down for the album , again, how absurd.
One more part of this puzzle that is perplexing.

[George Solomon]

Midnight Dancer is actually over six minutes long. They faded just after 3 minutes for the album and single. And yes, it's surprising they didn't use the full version on the 12". Similar with some Supremes songs from the last albums. I think I mentioned, Early Morning Love and Where Do I Go From Here were much longer. We've got the long version of Early Morning Love on the upcoming Anthology. And Kevin did a great mix!

[kenneth]

Midnight Dancer is actually over six minutes long. They faded just after 3 minutes for the album and single. And yes, it's surprising they didn't use the full version on the 12". Similar with some Supremes songs from the last albums. I think I mentioned, Early Morning Love and Where Do I Go From Here were much longer. We've got the long version of Early Morning Love on the upcoming Anthology. And Kevin did a great mix!


Can't wait to hear the long version of "Early Morning Love." I just love that song and think it suited Mary's voice perfectly. I love when she sings, "Touch my shoulder...turn me over!"

[thanxal]

Midnight Dancer is actually over six minutes long. They faded just after 3 minutes for the album and single. And yes, it's surprising they didn't use the full version on the 12". Similar with some Supremes songs from the last albums. I think I mentioned, Early Morning Love and Where Do I Go From Here were much longer. We've got the long version of Early Morning Love on the upcoming Anthology. And Kevin did a great mix!
It's always good to hear that Early Morning Love lasts longer than 3 minutes. Can't wait to hear the great work you all have done. Thanks again for your tireless efforts.

[jim aka jtigre99]

I would say as far as Mary wanting to choose songs for her debut, she clearly must have remembered that she definitely did not like "Where Did Our Love Go" and was surprised it became a #1 hit. I believe she wrote that after that she "knew" to choose the picking of the songs to the company. I believe both Diana and Flo also didn't care for the song. I always liked Midnight Dancer much more and I really liked I Love A Warm Summer Night. It took me many years to notice the James Brown groove and influence on "Red Hot" and that made me appreciate it more. Once Mary did choose songs or someone who would choose songs best for her voice and style with Gus Dudgeon, Motown declined them and showed her the door. Anyone who listens to those four songs could easily tell they were a superior product and would have been a potential hit of some kind for Mary and Motown alike. Listening to all of this music now makes me appreciate it a bit more than I did at the time as I was seriously hoping for more songs like she was featured on in each Supremes album in the 1970's- like A Heart Like Mine, I Keep It Hid, Early Morning LOve, You Turn Me Around, Don't Let My Teardrops Bother You,Till The Boat Sails Away,I Don't Wanna Lose You, You're What's Missing In My Life,We Should Be Closer Together and You Are The Heart Of Me. Listening to those songs and then her first solo album seemed like it was coming from a much different place artistically than what her progression had been in the previous years.

[TheMotownManiac]

also additional tracks add to studio costs. Mary hypothesized in her book that motown gave her the recording contract in order to get her to drop her lawsuit. if that was the case, they would have most likely approached her album with the idea of keeping costs at a minimum. she was assigned to work with Hal and he might have been assigned a short amount of studio time and very limited budget to work with.

think about the stories Deke told with Everything Is Everything. he was given a very very short window to work with. Berry wanted an lp ASAP. he states in the booklet that had he had more time, he might have come up with more original material.

so for the MW album, if Hal was given a short window and small budget, he might have just taken existing tracks or things he had on the shelf and had her quickly record them. Also it's easier, cheaper and faster to simply extend a song with more instrumental breaks in order to pad out an album rather than coming up with an 8th or 9th song.

my guess is motown wanted to invest as little as possible in this project. they had no intentions of promoting Mary as a solo artist, no intentions of doing much promotion of her album and no intentions of a long-term career with mary.

I agree I’m sure Motown had very little interest in this project, and Mary, knowing they had no use for her, was a fool to settle for a contract. I’m dumbfounded she fell for this. Of course, she had been trying desperately to get a contract on another label and it didn’t go well, so maybe she felt if she got something going here things might look up. It was quite a gamble.

Motown was interesting because they signed artists with absolutely no idea what they were going to do with them. That includes diana ross as a solo if you think about it. They gave away her debut single to the Supremes and then had to scramble from scratch to try to find some thing, and then they had to scratch to find some thing that didn’t sound like a fifth dimension out take. Tina turner‘s re-emergence came from a man with a plan who had a vision and respect for her as an artist and an entertainer. Mary didn’t have that. Her last album with the group didn’t even chart, and she was the big draw in that group. I wish that she had better advice so that something could’ve been planned out for a great splashy launch to her solo career. This album, save for mary wilson‘s diehard fans, has almost no commercial appeal whatsoever. It’s an eight track exercise in mediocrity it has a little bits here and there that are wonderful. But this isn’t the kind of music that Mary I had a talent for, I understand why they went with a dance album, because contrary to what some people here say, disco was still huge in 1979 there were dozens of top 40 hit disco records in 1979. It’s just too bad that no one at any record company saw a financial return on Mary. And yes, she carved quite an impressive career for herself!

I can’t imagine that Motown gave any kind of timeline for the release for this project. Deke Richards was given a timeline because Gordy wanted a back up plan in case the album by Ashford and Simpson didn’t sell. That wasn’t the case here at all. I agree that Motown probably want to spend as little money as possible on the album because they didn’t expect to get any return on it from the royalties. I play the album through last night, we were looking through the weekly Billboard charts from 1979 in 1980 and it just reiterated that this music was not in any way shape or form going to fit on the playlists because, sadly, it just wasn’t very good by comparison.

I don’t blame Motown, it’s a business and all businesses do what they can to maximize profits and minimize mistakes.I just wish that Mary had signed with another label and had some success so she could have showed Motown what they missed out on.

[Ollie9]

Allowing for the fact that Motown was indeed a business, any semblance of family unity that was seen on display at the Motown picnic of 74 seems to have all but evaporated by 79/80.
Mary was no doubt sweet talked into a solo contract by Gordy, her lawsuit being a rather healthy one. She was then unceremoniously dumped without second thought. Nice.
It is possible the powers that be considered her solo voice rather uncommercial, expecting little return no matter how polished or promoted the finished product might be. Hence the dime a dozen songs.
From a financial perspective as opposed to creative one, even Diana was being ripped off by the company.
I wonder if Motown might have put more effort into Mary’s solo album had Diana no longer been signed. Would the fact they still had at least one original Supreme have made a difference. Would Gordy have pushed Mary to get back at Diana for leaving?. Just a thought.

[mwmr]

I've always really liked Mary's solo LP. Strangely, I've never seen her perform any of the songs live - but I guess my first time seeing Mary perform was about 1990. After that time, I've managed to see her many times - each performance, you can tell she was enjoying entertaining the audience, and none of the "I'm a diva" attitude.

As soon as we're able to buy the Real Gone CD over here, I'll be ordering it.

Conversely I thought the "Partners" LP was absolutely hideous and just can't bear to listen to any of it.

Somehow - I can't remember who wrote it - but perhaps Motown wanted all three singers gone from their roster - and hence lack of support for Mary's LP, and just awful tracks given to the other two. I'm sorry, but I find the screeching on the "Partners" LP so painful for my ears!

I agree . I’ve always liked Mary’s album a lot . It’s not earth shattering but it’s ok.
in contrast I find Partners a hideous,hot mess that’s quite pretentious.
I know it’s different strokes for different folks but I’ve never liked Susaye’s voice . Way to screechy & shrill for me and the songs on this album try to hard for me

[Boogiedown]

Midnight Dancer is actually over six minutes long. They faded just after 3 minutes for the album and single. And yes, it's surprising they didn't use the full version on the 12". Similar with some Supremes songs from the last albums. I think I mentioned, Early Morning Love and Where Do I Go From Here were much longer. We've got the long version of Early Morning Love on the upcoming Anthology. And Kevin did a great mix!

Thanks!, this is good to know. At least Hal is off the hook in this sense. He had to know that disco invented the 12” single so as to accommodate the longer tunes DJs embraced [and with their superior sound quality]. Three minutes barely gives anybody time to get on the dance floor before the song’s over.

I suspect similar edits were done to his THANK GOD ITS FRIDAY contributions.

could be argued someone along the way reduced MIDNIGHT DANCER to fit the time space of the LP[?] but even if so that doesn’t explain the absurd decision to put the three minute version on the 12 “.
Since they handed Rusty Garner RED HOT to play with why not MIDNIGHT DANCER too. Poorly executed.

So the edit is just truncated. Maybe there is gold in the second half, a killer break, a crescendo ending. Not overly hopeful since they had to call in Rusty to try to liven up RED HOT.
I’m trying to understand what has happened to Hal Davis by this time.
Those fantastic intros to both LOVE HANGOVER and DONT LEAVE ME .
He wasn’t wanting to deliver similar quality for Mary ? His own reputation was on the line too.

i look forward to those Supremes nuggets.

added:
wait a minute , the longer discovered version of MIDNIGHT DANCER isn’t on the anthology …..

[George Solomon]

Don't get too excited. The longer Midnight Dancer contains no new info. It just goes on for another three and a half minutes at the end. The back up singers repeating the chorus and Mary ad-libbing. That's probably why it was faded. But it would have worked for a 12" single. It would have been easy to create a break or instrumental during those last 3 minutes and then bring the voices back in. Actually, all the songs on the album were considerably longer [[even the long ones were trimmed down.) We wish we could have remixed the whole album but there wasn't the time or space. Maybe another project. I know... wishful thinking considering how long it takes to get a project approved.

[Boogiedown]

That a hidden masterpiece had been suppressed seemed a long shot at best. Longer does not in of itself mean better, especially
more of the same. Now I’m wondering what RED HOT sounded like before Rusty Garner had a poke at it.
I know I’m repeating it, but still have to question, what the heck happened to Hal Davis here.

[Boogiedown]

This is what I see at discogs:

The song, RED HOT was remixed and extended into a special 12" version, commissioned by DJ Rusty Garner , that was available for purchase in the US, Canada and the UK. Those same three countries pressed promo copies for clubs , DJs, record stores etc...., the US promo being pressed on special red 'hot' vinyl.

The 45 for RED HOT had promo [radio] copies made in the US and the UK.
The 45 was pressed commercially in the US , Canada, UK , Portugal, Netherlands, Italy and Spain.

No mention of the album punched as promos but the LP was pressed in 8 countries:
US UK Canada France Portugal Germany Argentina Spain

A second single PICK UP THE PIECES was released in the UK in 1980 with both a commercial and promo pressing.

* added: curiously on the PICK UP THE PIECES 45 label: co-production is given to Bobby Belle. No involvement by him was credited on the LP.

I’m not following how pressing an LP in eight countries is seen as trying to quash somebody’s career ?
And despite plenty of push, RED HOT just wasn’t. Then another attempt, a second single was tried in a manner that often worked for Motown , through the UK market.

is it just a case of you can lead a horse to water ….

[blackguy69]

There’s seem to me that there really wasn’t a push
I’m not following how pressing an LP in eight countries is seen as trying to quash somebody’s career ?
And despite plenty of push, RED HOT just wasn’t. Then another attempt, a second single was tried in a manner that often worked for Motown , through the UK market.

is it just a case of you can lead a horse to water ….

[jim aka jtigre99]

There’s seem to me that there really wasn’t a push
There wasn't really any push. In The US, in my local newspaper buried in the last pages of the Sunday Entertainment section was a photo of her and a small caption that Mary Wilson was giving up her "Supreme Image" after her solo debut in New York, New York a disco. In my local radio stations, Red Hot was only played on the R&B station WAMO and it listed on their charts all the way up to #7 and I did hear it playing on a boombox while taking a bus to college. Still, never heard it on the local pop stations at all. I worked in a mall and did not see her album at any of the local record stores. I managed to find one lone copy at Zelda's, a store by the Pitt Campus. I never saw it advertised anywhere in print, in stores or anywhere else. So, when the second Original Supreme goes solo after the group disbanded the publicity on that alone should have been in the entertainment media somewhat. Granted, Motown only gave her the deal so she'd drop her lawsuit and Motown and her husband/manager did not have any positive relationship at all. But with everybody going on that it was given a push, the simple fact is it was not and definitely not nearly what even an outside observer could see because this was the second Supreme going solo on the Motown label. It should have received far more publicity than it did.

[Boogiedown]

I keep reading that Motown made this album deal as part of a scheme to get rid of Mary ….what is the source of this info ?

also what ‘push’ did Flo get from ABC in comparison?

[kenneth]

@Boogie,

I think to surmise as many people have that Motown entered the deal to “get rid of Mary“ is not really an accurate rendering. Obviously, the album was part of a settlement with Mary so she would give up demands to use of the Supremes name and and the litigation back-and-forth which I believe had been going on for a few years by that point though someone may wish to correct me on that. But with any settlement, the obvious purpose is to have the plaintiff waive all their complaint demands so both parties can move forward without having to encourage the continuous rising costs of attorneys and court. Of course any company like Motown can bide their time more than someone in Mary’s position because they have deeper pockets and time is always on one party’s side in any litigation, no matter what the kind of case it is.


I think a more realistic assessment is that the album was simply part of the litigation and resulting global settlement, and had it hit Motown would’ve likely followed it up with another release. In Mary’s case, the album just wasn’t very good and didn’t sell unfortunately.


Just my thoughts.

[reese]

@Boogie,

I think to surmise as many people have that Motown entered the deal to “get rid of Mary“ is not really an accurate rendering. Obviously, the album was part of a settlement with Mary so she would give up demands to use of the Supremes name and and the litigation back-and-forth which I believe had been going on for a few years by that point though someone may wish to correct me on that. But with any settlement, the obvious purpose is to have the plaintiff waive all their complaint demands so both parties can move forward without having to encourage the continuous rising costs of attorneys and court. Of course any company like Motown can bide their time more than someone in Mary’s position because they have deeper pockets and time is always on one party’s side in any litigation, no matter what the kind of case it is.


I think a more realistic assessment is that the album was simply part of the litigation and resulting global settlement, and had it hit Motown would’ve likely followed it up with another release. In Mary’s case, the album just wasn’t very good and didn’t sell unfortunately.


Just my thoughts.


I would also add that according to Mary, her solo deal was for five years with two lps per year. I admit that I don't know how many artists were releasing two lps per year in those days. Maybe she meant she was to record two albums per year?

In any event, after her first solo lp was released, she went to England and recorded four songs with Elton John's producer Gus Dudgeon. Motown rejected the tracks, gave Mary the masters [which is rare], and dropped her from the label.

[Boogiedown]

Thank you Kenneth and Reese. So thus far no one is providing a source that lays it out that the intention was to sink Mary Wilson with this album.
Reese I know you are pretty thorough in your referencing.
Kenneth I agree that it was part of an agreement to provide an album if that’s what it took to resolve this, and I bet it likely Berry’s heart wasn’t in it , but was his heart into anything at this point? Did he have anything to do with Diana’s output at this point? Or any other artist ?
I find it hard to believe that Berry would be upset that Mary had a big selling LP. I don’t think he ever expected it, but I doubt he wished it to not happen.

Motown was rife with disgruntled employees and litigations and people came and went.
Was anybody permanently banned ??
when Eddie and David caused disruption didn’t Berry nonetheless want them to be successful? A&S returned as did HDH.
I suspect the deal was made including a not too shabby Hal Davis as the producer. Maybe Mary requested him knowing what he’d done for Diana.
But when she showed up at the planning and was asked what she wanted on her album, and all they got from her was a blank stare, it went downhill from there.

[marybrewster]

Funny you say no one is providing a source to "sink Mary", yet you go on to assume she was asked about what she wanted for the album and got a "blank stare". Where was that documented?

I think Mary's fault was trusting Motown would take care of her, as they did in the 60's. Motown, Berry, HDH, and others knew what course to take the Supremes. What sound was hot. What lyrics work. It was a promotional machine. Mary probably hoped the same would work for her solo career. It didn't.

[Spreadinglove21]

When Mary recorded her album, disco was hot so it's not like Motown gave her a bunch of doo wop tunes. It's just by the time it was released disco had saturated the market and there was a backlash [[some justified due to saturation and poor records, some not justified, as it was malicious if not outright evil, and fueled by racism and homophobia).

And as the last Supremes line ups saw only significant play and sales in the disco market, it makes sense to direct Mary's first album to that market.

Only problem was that Mary's talents weren't based on being a Disco Diva type vocalist. But I think she does a decent enough job with her vocals on her solo debut, even if the ad libs get repetitive.

A shame that a few more songwriters weren't called in for the album.

[marybrewster]

I just read in an old Mary Wilson Fan Club newsletter [[take it for what it's worth) that had the Supremes continued after the MSS album, there was talk they would be paired with Pam Sawyer and Marilyn McLeod. I wonder if High Energy's TURNIN ON album might have gone to the Supremes? Or, what if Pam and Marilyn would have written for Mary's solo debut?

[RanRan79]

I think Mary's fault was trusting Motown would take care of her, as they did in the 60's. Motown, Berry, HDH, and others knew what course to take the Supremes. What sound was hot. What lyrics work. It was a promotional machine. Mary probably hoped the same would work for her solo career. It didn't.

If that were true, it would be a real shame because it would mean Mary hadn't learned much over the past X years. Why would she trust Motown to tune into all of that at that point when they certainly weren't doing much of that for the Supremes in the 70s? I'm sure there was a part of Mary that wanted to believe that Motown would do right by her, especially if Gordy was around. But Motown dropped the ball with Mary's group and the company never seemed to get behind her as a lead vocalist with the group [[although it did greenlight four singles- one of which was a hit- with Mary as co-lead). It boggles my mind that she thought this would magically change because she was no longer in the group.

I do agree with other's thoughts that Motown wasn't necessarily "hoping" for Mary's failure. They put money into the album and would have most certainly appreciated a return in investment for their "troubles". But they were only willing to be "troubled" as a result of the lawsuit, and the terms of dropping it. Motown appears to have been disinterested in putting in the work to get Mary Wilson solo artist into anything substantial. The fact that the label heard Mary's GD demos and still showed her the door, with masters in hand, tells me all I need to know about it's interest in Mary. They did the bare minimum- or close to it- for her solo and then turned their attention elsewhere.

[marybrewster]

I wonder if Mary had secured a label across the pond for her debut if things might have turned out differently. In the States, even after 15 years with the Supremes, I don't know how recognizable her name was. In the UK however, Mary seemed to be the toast of the town. I think she even eluded that fans overseas, even in the 80's and 90's, had a greater appreciation for her. Not to say we didn't love our Mary here, but think about groups like the Three Degrees; just as popular today in Japan as 40 years ago.

[Boogiedown]

Funny you say no one is providing a source to "sink Mary", yet you go on to assume she was asked about what she wanted for the album and got a "blank stare". Where was that documented?

I think Mary's fault was trusting Motown would take care of her, as they did in the 60's. Motown, Berry, HDH, and others knew what course to take the Supremes. What sound was hot. What lyrics work. It was a promotional machine. Mary probably hoped the same would work for her solo career. It didn't.
I do have sources, but they’ve asked not to be disclosed.:p

Seriously, if you reread my post you’ll see language like “ I bet’, ‘I suspect’ … similar to your using words like “think” and ‘probably’ in your thoughts.

I don’t have the answers and am offering my speculations like anyone else.
Others may have it spot on, just asking for verification of certain claims of some sort if they exist.:cool: Otherwise , like mine , pontification is just fine, I find it quite an interesting situation Mary was faced with.

[RanRan79]

I wonder if Mary had secured a label across the pond for her debut if things might have turned out differently. In the States, even after 15 years with the Supremes, I don't know how recognizable her name was. In the UK however, Mary seemed to be the toast of the town. I think she even eluded that fans overseas, even in the 80's and 90's, had a greater appreciation for her. Not to say we didn't love our Mary here, but think about groups like the Three Degrees; just as popular today in Japan as 40 years ago.

It's an interesting scenario, but I think Mary debuting on Motown makes sense for what it was: a settlement. But when Motown booted her out with her GD tracks, seems like it might have been a good idea to even reach out to Gus himself, being from the UK, and see what he could do. Perhaps had she been able to make something happen there, then it's possible her UK success may have spread to the US.

One of Mary's problems was that she had no guidance. Diana excelled in the 70s because she had guidance, someone with know how behind her. When she ditched that at RCA...well we see what happened. Diana's RCA tenure wasn't a complete bust because by that point she was already a superstar. Can you imagine a Diana Ross career post Supremes if she was in charge of the whole thing herself? Yikes! Mary wasn't any more or less self aware as an artist as Diana was and she needed someone with music business smarts to get the job done. She didn't have that. If she did, perhaps the UK scenario you posed would have been on the table.

[Boogiedown]

It's an interesting scenario, but I think Mary debuting on Motown makes sense for what it was: a settlement. But when Motown booted her out with her GD tracks, seems like it might have been a good idea to even reach out to Gus himself, being from the UK, and see what he could do. Perhaps had she been able to make something happen there, then it's possible her UK success may have spread to the US.

One of Mary's problems was that she had no guidance. Diana excelled in the 70s because she had guidance, someone with know how behind her. When she ditched that at RCA...well we see what happened. Diana's RCA tenure wasn't a complete bust because by that point she was already a superstar. Can you imagine a Diana Ross career post Supremes if she was in charge of the whole thing herself? Yikes! Mary wasn't any more or less self aware as an artist as Diana was and she needed someone with music business smarts to get the job done. She didn't have that. If she did, perhaps the UK scenario you posed would have been on the table.

Yes your comment that Mary wasn’t any more self-aware than Diana is sort of my point about the blank stare statement.
You would think [or rather I would think] that someone who’s been singing for 25 years and more would have a collection of songs that they favored or enjoyed singing or always wish they could sing and then when the opportunity finally comes that you’re going to put your name on your own record - to not have any input, to not jump at the chance, that strikes me as odd.
And I think it’s correct that Diana didn’t have much awareness herself and when she went to RCA, when faced with similar options ,her first choice to finally sing was of all things ‘ “why do fools fall in love “ , which apparently was a song she always wanted to sing and so did. Likely that’s one of the earlier songs of her musical memories as a child, something she really was attached to, and when I think of it that way, good for her to record it and make it hers.

[Boogiedown]

Thank you Kenneth and Reese. So thus far no one is providing a source that lays it out that the intention was to sink Mary Wilson with this album.
Reese I know you are pretty thorough in your referencing.
Kenneth I agree that it was part of an agreement to provide an album if that’s what it took to resolve this, and I bet it likely Berry’s heart wasn’t in it , but was his heart into anything at this point? Did he have anything to do with Diana’s output at this point? Or any other artist ?
I find it hard to believe that Berry would be upset that Mary had a big selling LP. I don’t think he ever expected it, but I doubt he wished it to not happen.

Motown was rife with disgruntled employees and litigations and people came and went.
Was anybody permanently banned ??
when Eddie and David caused disruption didn’t Berry nonetheless want them to be successful? A&S returned as did HDH.
I suspect the deal was made including a not too shabby Hal Davis as the producer. Maybe Mary requested him knowing what he’d done for Diana.
But when she showed up at the planning and was asked what she wanted on her album, and all they got from her was a blank stare, it went downhill from there.
This is indeed conjecture , trying to imagine how this played out.

So what are the options here? Fact:
Mary is granted an album of her own , it’ll have her name across the front and nobody else’s. It’ll be the first time in her long career. as a performer. This album represents HER.

Option one :] Her mind is swirling with possibilities , she goes in with lists of songs she’d like to sing , subject matter for writing a certain song[s], preferred songwriters, producers, or at a very minimum , a style she’d like to pursue, an image to be developed. Everybody’s on board and Mary makes the album of her dreams.

Option 2] she does exactly all that and Gets total resistance and is told , “Don’t worry about any of that,” and she just says “ok”. [ however that situation would likely have been revealed in her books’ recounting]

option 3 ] she simply puts her solo career in the hands of Motown as she was used to, and is flabbergasted she’s to sing an entire album of songs written by two nobodies [ However that situation would likely have been covered in her books as well.]

option 4] Mary goes into the studio, sings whatever they put in front of her never even notices the songs are all written by whoever with nothing else mixed in by any other whoevers : meaning she didn’t really care.

option 5] the one I’m leaning toward: Mary meets with Hal Davis, has no idea what she wants to sing [ the blank stare] and Hal losing innovation therefore himself , provides her with whatever.

I suppose one other option could be that Hal Davis thought these new guys had come up with songs that were pure genius and every one of their songs needed to be on this album exclusively , but that probably requires the biggest stretch when imagining this.

have I missed another way this may have gone down??

[blackguy69]

I’m leaning towards she met up with Hal and music with backgrounds already cut and all Mary had to do is lay her vocals down

[Boogiedown]

I’m leaning towards she met up with Hal and music with backgrounds already cut and all Mary had to do is lay her vocals down
Very good. That would be option 3 —- correction; option 4 :)

Mary just showed up and did as directed and didn’t really care about or concern herself with the content .

[blackguy69]

I’m sure she didn’t really have a choice
Very good. That would be option 3 —- correction; option 4 :)

Mary just showed up and did as directed and didn’t really care about or concern herself with the content .

[daviddh]

I remember a Mike Douglas interview ,where she performed Red Hot shortly after its release, she stated she didnt want to record a disco album because she saw herself more as a ballad ,jazz singer but they convinced her to do the disco because it was 1979 and disco was in. she regretted it. the 2 best cuts were the ballads

[reese]

I remember a Mike Douglas interview ,where she performed Red Hot shortly after its release, she stated she didnt want to record a disco album because she saw herself more as a ballad ,jazz singer but they convinced her to do the disco because it was 1979 and disco was in. she regretted it. the 2 best cuts were the ballads

I remember seeing the Mike Douglas appearance. In addition to performing RED HOT and PICK UP THE PIECES, she also did bits of BABY LOVE and WHERE DID OUR LOVE GO where she only sang her backup part.

[Boogiedown]

I’m sure she didn’t really have a choice
Your opine is as good as any…
seems like if she were forced into recording those songs with no choice, she would have complained about it in her writings …. Or did she ??

[Boogiedown]

I remember a Mike Douglas interview ,where she performed Red Hot shortly after its release, she stated she didnt want to record a disco album because she saw herself more as a ballad ,jazz singer but they convinced her to do the disco because it was 1979 and disco was in. she regretted it. the 2 best cuts were the ballads

well that adds some meat to the topic. Who was the “they” that convinced her ?
Im betting at this point Mary’s goal was to prove herself marketable. She had no idea this project would turn out to be her one and only.
she likely felt the future would provide her opportunity to streamline her content in her albums once she got the ball rolling.

[jim aka jtigre99]

well that adds some meat to the topic. Who was the “they” that convinced her ?
Im betting at this point Mary’s goal was to prove herself marketable. She had no idea this project would turn out to be her one and only.
she likely felt the future would provide her opportunity to streamline her content in her albums once she got the ball rolling.
Since at the time she recorded that disco was still very popular, Motown probably wanted to continue to capitalize on that market, witness some of the other releases-even the Boss and diana. I read an article decades ago that Mary gave to Jeffrey Wilson where she stated that her initial album was just a starting point and that she looked at it as a starting point and planned to develop further from there. When she went to Gus Dudgeon and had 4 songs that were terrific development for her, she was released from her contract and given her masters back and was told they were only releasing dance music. So, yes she looked at the debut as just a launching point and was determined to develop and streamline from there. Had Motown not released her and completed a second album with the Dudgeon tracks among others, she may have had a fighting chance to be marketable as a recording artist. Just a thought that really shows Motown did not really want her as a soloist. In 1983, when Suzanne DePasse was thinking a Supremes reunion ala the Tempts with Mary, Scherrie & Cindy-Mary wrote that they wanted Scherrie to do all of the leads. Plus DePasse told Mary she had an "interesting" voice and there was "something they could do with it". Mary said she dropped her guard long enough because that was the first time anyone at Motown had ever complimented her. So, do we think that Motown really wanted to promote her as a solo? I honestly feel it was just to get her to drop the lawsuit, they put minimal investment in her solo work in order to get some return on their investment or that as a business they could write it off as a loss.

[Boogiedown]

Since at the time she recorded that disco was still very popular, Motown probably wanted to continue to capitalize on that market, witness some of the other releases-even the Boss and diana. I read an article decades ago that Mary gave to Jeffrey Wilson where she stated that her initial album was just a starting point and that she looked at it as a starting point and planned to develop further from there. When she went to Gus Dudgeon and had 4 songs that were terrific development for her, she was released from her contract and given her masters back and was told they were only releasing dance music. So, yes she looked at the debut as just a launching point and was determined to develop and streamline from there. Had Motown not released her and completed a second album with the Dudgeon tracks among others, she may have had a fighting chance to be marketable as a recording artist. Just a thought that really shows Motown did not really want her as a soloist. In 1983, when Suzanne DePasse was thinking a Supremes reunion ala the Tempts with Mary, Scherrie & Cindy-Mary wrote that they wanted Scherrie to do all of the leads. Plus DePasse told Mary she had an "interesting" voice and there was "something they could do with it". Mary said she dropped her guard long enough because that was the first time anyone at Motown had ever complimented her. So, do we think that Motown really wanted to promote her as a solo? I honestly feel it was just to get her to drop the lawsuit, they put minimal investment in her solo work in order to get some return on their investment or that as a business they could write it off as a loss.
Interesting. So I have to conclude the dudgeon tracks were terrible.
still not understanding why Motown would want her to fail ? Why ?
it’s in their favor for her to exceed. If nothing else, for no better reason, it revitalizes interest in the supremes catalogue. And anybody that helps pay the bills ….
As I’ve already said plenty of people sued Motown , caused problems, returned or continued without vilification.
the Bottom line was always the bottom line with Motown, not taking the high road, or being principled.
was Mary Wilson therefore really that hatable that they wanted nothing else but to destroy her? I don’t believe it, not for a second.

also Weren’t Diana and Mary at least friendly at this point ? So soon after flo’s passing. I wonder if Mary Wilson reached out to Diana Ross for advice at this crossroads in her life?
“Hi Diane ….. blah blah blah … and so , I’m about to record my first solo LP, any thoughts or helpful input?”

[jim aka jtigre99]

Interesting. So I have to conclude the dudgeon tracks were terrible.
still not understanding why Motown would want her to fail ? Why ?
it’s in their favor for her to exceed. If nothing else, for no better reason, it revitalizes interest in the supremes catalogue. And anybody that helps pay the bills ….
As I’ve already said plenty of people sued Motown , caused problems, returned or continued without vilification.
the Bottom line was always the bottom line with Motown, not taking the high road, or being principled.
was Mary Wilson therefore really that hatable that they wanted nothing else but to destroy her? I don’t believe it, not for a second.

also Weren’t Diana and Mary at least friendly at this point ? So soon after flo’s passing. I wonder if Mary Wilson reached out to Diana Ross for advice at this crossroads in her life?
“Hi Diane ….. blah blah blah … and so , I’m about to record my first solo LP, any thoughts or helpful input?”
The Gus Dudgeon tracks were actually terrific. Her work on the ballads Love Talk and You Dance My Heart Around The Stars[[which when finally released on a compilation album in 2018 put her vocals in preliminary consideration for a Grammy Nomination)are beautiful and very strong vocally, she does a beautiful job on all of the tracks.. Diana and Mary were still friendly as far as the casual observer could see. Diana herself was trying to liberate herself from Motown's long arm as she moved to NYC area after The Wiz and started her journey to leave the label a few years later. I don't know how much time she may have had since she was going through some growth of her own at the time. Mary said Diana was gracious enough to consent to be Turkessa's Godmother and that she came to Mary's opening night and was very supportive[[The lovely Miss Ross also did so for Cindy Birdsong when she went solo in the UK) she wrote that Diana and her had some moments for some private girl talk after her debut and that she was supportive and complimentary, that she was really there for her and that it was a pleasure to have her there.
I don't think Mary was "hateable" and that Motown plotted and schemed to destroy her solo efforts, they were just looking at the bottom line. By 1979, the Supremes were a memory to this new era. Motown failed to keep them in the top 40 between 1973-1976 and after 1976. Launching Mary at that time was calculated just to have her drop her lawsuit. Mary was considered an outcast and rebel since she had stood up for herself. Gordy never saw her as anything but a "capable background singer" so if his heart wasn't in it neither was the label. He was behind Diana and making movies. He wasn't really behind the Terrell and Payne led years in the Supremes, they had just enough support to keep going but not what the premiere group on the label should have-the focus was on Diana and the Jackson 5 much like it had been on The Supremes beforehand. Gordy let them coast on their name for success in the 70's and Mary saw the value in the name of the group she helped to co-find and continued to fight for the name for many years. It is not an easy answer but one of speculation. Plus, I can speculate that Motown did not care at all for Pedro Ferrer, her husband and manager. That may have had a minute possibility of any "hateable" factor. Like any business, if you have to deal with someone you don't like people usually don't give it their all.

[Ollie9]

Interesting. So I have to conclude the dudgeon tracks were terrible.
still not understanding why Motown would want her to fail ? Why ?
it’s in their favor for her to exceed. If nothing else, for no better reason, it revitalizes interest in the supremes catalogue. And anybody that helps pay the bills ….
As I’ve already said plenty of people sued Motown , caused problems, returned or continued without vilification.
the Bottom line was always the bottom line with Motown, not taking the high road, or being principled.
was Mary Wilson therefore really that hatable that they wanted nothing else but to destroy her? I don’t believe it, not for a second.

also Weren’t Diana and Mary at least friendly at this point ? So soon after flo’s passing. I wonder if Mary Wilson reached out to Diana Ross for advice at this crossroads in her life?
“Hi Diane ….. blah blah blah … and so , I’m about to record my first solo LP, any thoughts or helpful input?”

I don’t think she was hated, but the fact she was shown the door so soon speaks volumes. I wonder how Diana herself felt about Mary being dropped from the label. I guess she was probably to busy with her own career to give it much thought.

[BayouMotownMan]

I don’t think she was hated, but the fact she was shown the door so soon speaks volumes. I wonder how Diana herself felt about Mary being dropped from the label. I guess she was probably to busy with her own career to give it much thought.

Diana Ross tried to help Mary secure a record deal after Motown dropped her and she left the label a few months later. Mary refused her assistance

[RanRan79]

The Gus Dudgeon tracks were actually terrific. Her work on the ballads Love Talk and You Dance My Heart Around The Stars[[which when finally released on a compilation album in 2018 put her vocals in preliminary consideration for a Grammy Nomination)are beautiful and very strong vocally, she does a beautiful job on all of the tracks.. Diana and Mary were still friendly as far as the casual observer could see. Diana herself was trying to liberate herself from Motown's long arm as she moved to NYC area after The Wiz and started her journey to leave the label a few years later. I don't know how much time she may have had since she was going through some growth of her own at the time. Mary said Diana was gracious enough to consent to be Turkessa's Godmother and that she came to Mary's opening night and was very supportive[[The lovely Miss Ross also did so for Cindy Birdsong when she went solo in the UK) she wrote that Diana and her had some moments for some private girl talk after her debut and that she was supportive and complimentary, that she was really there for her and that it was a pleasure to have her there.
I don't think Mary was "hateable" and that Motown plotted and schemed to destroy her solo efforts, they were just looking at the bottom line. By 1979, the Supremes were a memory to this new era. Motown failed to keep them in the top 40 between 1973-1976 and after 1976. Launching Mary at that time was calculated just to have her drop her lawsuit. Mary was considered an outcast and rebel since she had stood up for herself. Gordy never saw her as anything but a "capable background singer" so if his heart wasn't in it neither was the label. He was behind Diana and making movies. He wasn't really behind the Terrell and Payne led years in the Supremes, they had just enough support to keep going but not what the premiere group on the label should have-the focus was on Diana and the Jackson 5 much like it had been on The Supremes beforehand. Gordy let them coast on their name for success in the 70's and Mary saw the value in the name of the group she helped to co-find and continued to fight for the name for many years. It is not an easy answer but one of speculation. Plus, I can speculate that Motown did not care at all for Pedro Ferrer, her husband and manager. That may have had a minute possibility of any "hateable" factor. Like any business, if you have to deal with someone you don't like people usually don't give it their all.

I wouldn't even go so far as to say Gordy didn't like Mary. I think she threatened the money and that was an issue for him. It seems to me, from the outside looking in, that the old Motown family from the early days would always hold a special place for Gordy, who believe it or not, could be quite sentimental. Sure, there were probably times when certain "family" got on his bad side and stayed there. Florence comes to mind. I do think there came a point where he disliked her, and she obviously disliked him. I don't know that anything between Mary and Berry ever got that bad, including the lawsuit. But talent wise, he, and by extension Motown, held no interest in what Mary could do and so when the album tanked, Berry had no more use for her.

[RanRan79]

Diana Ross tried to help Mary secure a record deal after Motown dropped her and she left the label a few months later. Mary refused her assistance

Bayou, how credible is that report? Seems weird that Mary would go to Diana for financial assistance but have too much pride to let her help musically. Unless this was Diana's first attempt at "managing" other artists, at which point I can see Mary laughing and declining all at once.:p

[Ollie9]

Diana Ross tried to help Mary secure a record deal after Motown dropped her and she left the label a few months later. Mary refused her assistance

Interesting info Bayou. Is this documented somewhere as I have yet to read it?

[Boogiedown]

Diana Ross tried to help Mary secure a record deal after Motown dropped her and she left the label a few months later. Mary refused her assistance
Curious, the source for this story would be good.
What does ‘tried to help’ mean ? How?
Mary ‘refused’ , why ?

maybe because the label Diana tried to hook her up with was ABC :p