Motown and Florence's funeral

[floyjoy678]

Does anyone know who all from Motown went to Florence's funeral? I was reading on a Facebook group that Mary borrowed some clothing items from Cindy for the funeral and it made me wonder if Cindy went to the funeral. I doubt she did or it probably would have been mentioned. From what I've read it was: Mary, Diana, Stevie and the Four Tops.

[BayouMotownMan]

Does anyone know who all from Motown went to Florence's funeral? I was reading on a Facebook group that Mary borrowed some clothing items from Cindy for the funeral and it made me wonder if Cindy went to the funeral. I doubt she did or it probably would have been mentioned. From what I've read it was: Mary, Diana, Stevie and the Four Tops.

Rosalind Ashford was seen at the funeral

[sup_fan]

Flo's funeral was right after Cindy's 2nd departure from the group. I don't know that there was tension between M and C but there seems to have been between C and Pedro. i would be surprised if Mary borrowed anything from Cindy for the funeral.

on FB someone mentioned the mirrored skullcap that Mary wore and the funeral and in the pics on the back of HE. there's a pic of Cindy wearing the same skullcap and someone said that only C and S owned these and M borrowed C. that's certainly possible at one time but MSS all wore them on Udo live so somewhere, somehow more were obtained.

[woodward]

Marv Johnson was there; he was a pallbearer.

[sup_fan]

did any of the extended Gordy family go? Ester or Gwen?

what about the Temps

[sup_fan]

Tony Turner was there too lol :p

[Boogiedown]

lot of no shows ...this Motown 'one big family' thing was evidently highly exagerrated

[blackguy69]

I wouldn’t put too much stock on what someone said on FB
Flo's funeral was right after Cindy's 2nd departure from the group. I don't know that there was tension between M and C but there seems to have been between C and Pedro. i would be surprised if Mary borrowed anything from Cindy for the funeral.

on FB someone mentioned the mirrored skullcap that Mary wore and the funeral and in the pics on the back of HE. there's a pic of Cindy wearing the same skullcap and someone said that only C and S owned these and M borrowed C. that's certainly possible at one time but MSS all wore them on Udo live so somewhere, somehow more were obtained.

[woodward]

Although I have seen no evidence that Esther attended the funeral, I would bet she did.
I was at Marv Johnson's funeral which was after Florence passed and Esther spoke. The
program for the services does not reflect that anyone from Motown did any speaking.
I have the actual program in hand.

[reese]

In the notes section of CALL HER MISS ROSS, J. Randy Taborrelli mentions Wanda Rogers as having attended Flo's funeral.

[PeaceNHarmony]

There seems to be nothing but sadness when it comes to Florence Ballard. Cretins boo-ed Diana Ross for attending the funeral. Mary W made a career from Diana's attendance at the funeral and decency in making a statement there. And ... none of the many [[hundreds?) of Motown employees who worked with Florence Ballard and swear to the skies 40+ years later that Florence was cheated out of a superstar career bothered to attend her funeral, and remain unscathed. Fans go to their grave[[s) insulting Diana for attending Florence's funeral; those who could not be bothered ... well ...

[floyjoy678]

There seems to be nothing but sadness when it comes to Florence Ballard. Cretins boo-ed Diana Ross for attending the funeral. Mary W made a career from Diana's attendance at the funeral and decency in making a statement there. And ... none of the many [[hundreds?) of Motown employees who worked with Florence Ballard and swear to the skies 40+ years later that Florence was cheated out of a superstar career bothered to attend her funeral, and remain unscathed. Fans go to their grave[[s) insulting Diana for attending Florence's funeral; those who could not be bothered ... well ...

As a huge Flo fan, I try not to focus on the sad parts of her life. I'd rather focus on what a charming, appealing woman she was who added something special to the Supremes. Yes she had her demons and most likely an undiagnosed mental disorder but that's not to take away the great accomplishments she made in her short life.

I do agree though, that the whole Motown is a family image is a bit BS to me. All I will say is Diana, Mary and Florence had a lot of love for each other no matter how complicated their relationship. I've seen pictures of Diana at the funeral and she looked a mess emotionally. As did Mary. Especially in the photo of the two of them standing up by the casket together.

[jim aka jtigre99]

This is an odd and interesting topic. I honestly don't think that every Motown act could be in attendance for Florence's funeral. The company had relocated to California by this time. Florence had no longer been with Motown for about 8 1/2 years. The artists may have been all over the World at the time performing and may not have had the opportunity to attend. I am sure cancelling performance around the country and world would not have been an option. The fact that The Four Tops and Stevie Wonder were there says that they were a family. Her former bandmates were both there. I personally could care less if Mary borrowed the studded skullcap she wore here and on the back of High Energy from Cindy. I don't think Mary "made a career" over Diana making a statement and being there. Mary merely stated in her book that Diana had not spoke with her about making a statement with her and that she was taken aback. Mary loved Diana but did not always like her behavior[[just as I am sure Diana felt about Mary) and that she didn't want to get up and speak as nothing was planned. The fact that Diana and Mary were both there simply showed they both loved Florence and regardless of what professional business they may have had, were both in attendance for such a sad and shocking funeral. I am sure it was a sad day for the Motown family whether they could attend or not.

[woodward]

This is an odd and interesting topic. I honestly don't think that every Motown act could be in attendance for Florence's funeral. The company had relocated to California by this time. Florence had no longer been with Motown for about 8 1/2 years. The artists may have been all over the World at the time performing and may not have had the opportunity to attend. I am sure cancelling performance around the country and world would not have been an option. The fact that The Four Tops and Stevie Wonder were there says that they were a family. Her former bandmates were both there. I personally could care less if Mary borrowed the studded skullcap she wore here and on the back of High Energy from Cindy. I don't think Mary "made a career" over Diana making a statement and being there. Mary merely stated in her book that Diana had not spoke with her about making a statement with her and that she was taken aback.\\ Mary loved Diana but did not always like her behavior[[just as I am sure Diana felt about Mary) and that she didn't want to get up and speak as nothing was planned. The fact that Diana and Mary were both there simply showed they both loved Florence and regardless of what professional business they may have had, were both in attendance for such a sad and shocking funeral. I am sure it was a sad day for the Motown family whether they could attend or not.


Jim: I think your thread is dynamic. You pointed out a lot of logical reasons why there was no huge Motown "family" attendance at the funeral. Your points are well taken. Thank you for being what I consider facutual.

[RanRan79]

It would be a disservice to the memory of Motown to fail to point out that the atmosphere was very much so unique than at most- or maybe any other- record label. While they are obviously not a traditional family, that was the atmosphere there. It was a small label, everyone knew everyone else, they all pitched in, not only in making music, but in other areas of the label's growth. Because so many at the time were very young, I liken what was happening as some sort of college experience. Motown was the fraternity and sorority experience and connection that most of them would not have, because while their friends were having the college experience, these kids were at Hitsville and out on the road.

Sure there was rivalries, some fights, some name calling, some plain ole "I don't like him/her". There was also contract stipulated forfeitures of royalties, inability to capitalize on work experience billing, financial theft, underutilization, credit theft, firings, and other shenanigans that served to fill someone else's pocket[[s) at the expense of the artists. But all you have to do is see what happens when all of these people, or even just a few or a couple of them, gather together and you will see the affection and respect they have for each other. How many times did Mary Wilson get embroiled in a court battle with Motown over one thing or another? How many times has Gordy called Mary's, as well as others', books garbage? And yet when he encounters these people, it's all love. Mary had "recently" written not one but two books that painted Gordy as a sometimes funky character, and yet when her son passed away, he was right by her side.

I've seen the Supremes themselves attempted to be cast as three women who were nothing more than co-workers. Seen posts that respond to post-Supremes issues as "Do you keep in touch with co-workers from 40 years ago", etc. They always give me a chuckle, even as I roll my eyes, because my response is always how many "co-workers" lend down payments for houses or set up trust funds for kids when you haven't worked with someone for so long? I think sometimes there's a lack of understanding about the dynamics of a relationship between two people, especially when they're bonded through an extraordinary experience.

So I would never use any lack of the number of Motown family present at Flo's funeral to suggest that she wasn't loved and dearly missed by those who remember the youthful and idyllic and career driven young lady that she once was, no more than I would suggest Diana didn't love and have affection for her brother when he died and she didn't attend the funeral, or Mary didn't love and have affection for her mother when she died and she didn't attend the funeral. Florence's own mother did not attend her funeral. I think we should stop looking at who shows up to funerals and pay a bit more attention to who shows up in life. That's not Motown related advice, btw, it's personal advice from me to you.

One last thing: Flo's funeral was moved up a day when the city realized that crowd control would be a huge problem. This prevented a lot of stars who were intending to come from actually coming because they had made plans to attend on one date and were now faced with attending on another. To people with already busy schedules, making new plans was probably impossible.

[reese]

It would be a disservice to the memory of Motown to fail to point out that the atmosphere was very much so unique than at most- or maybe any other- record label. While they are obviously not a traditional family, that was the atmosphere there. It was a small label, everyone knew everyone else, they all pitched in, not only in making music, but in other areas of the label's growth. Because so many at the time were very young, I liken what was happening as some sort of college experience. Motown was the fraternity and sorority experience and connection that most of them would not have, because while their friends were having the college experience, these kids were at Hitsville and out on the road.

Sure there was rivalries, some fights, some name calling, some plain ole "I don't like him/her". There was also contract stipulated forfeitures of royalties, inability to capitalize on work experience billing, financial theft, underutilization, credit theft, firings, and other shenanigans that served to fill someone else's pocket[[s) at the expense of the artists. But all you have to do is see what happens when all of these people, or even just a few or a couple of them, gather together and you will see the affection and respect they have for each other. How many times did Mary Wilson get embroiled in a court battle with Motown over one thing or another? How many times has Gordy called Mary's, as well as others', books garbage? And yet when he encounters these people, it's all love. Mary had "recently" written not one but two books that painted Gordy as a sometimes funky character, and yet when her son passed away, he was right by her side.

I've seen the Supremes themselves attempted to be cast as three women who were nothing more than co-workers. Seen posts that respond to post-Supremes issues as "Do you keep in touch with co-workers from 40 years ago", etc. They always give me a chuckle, even as I roll my eyes, because my response is always how many "co-workers" lend down payments for houses or set up trust funds for kids when you haven't worked with someone for so long? I think sometimes there's a lack of understanding about the dynamics of a relationship between two people, especially when they're bonded through an extraordinary experience.

So I would never use any lack of the number of Motown family present at Flo's funeral to suggest that she wasn't loved and dearly missed by those who remember the youthful and idyllic and career driven young lady that she once was, no more than I would suggest Diana didn't love and have affection for her brother when he died and she didn't attend the funeral, or Mary didn't love and have affection for her mother when she died and she didn't attend the funeral. Florence's own mother did not attend her funeral. I think we should stop looking at who shows up to funerals and pay a bit more attention to who shows up in life. That's not Motown related advice, btw, it's personal advice from me to you.

One last thing: Flo's funeral was moved up a day when the city realized that crowd control would be a huge problem. This prevented a lot of stars who were intending to come from actually coming because they had made plans to attend on one date and were now faced with attending on another. To people with already busy schedules, making new plans was probably impossible.

Very well put.

[Boogiedown]

Be telling who sent flowers.

[SatansBlues]

How many Motown artists show up for Marvin Gaye's funeral or what about Michael Jackson's funeral or Levi Stubb's funeral or what about David Ruffin memorial? Who all showed? Haven't we beaten this topic to death?

[Ollie9]

There seems to be nothing but sadness when it comes to Florence Ballard. Cretins boo-ed Diana Ross for attending the funeral. Mary W made a career from Diana's attendance at the funeral and decency in making a statement there. And ... none of the many [[hundreds?) of Motown employees who worked with Florence Ballard and swear to the skies 40+ years later that Florence was cheated out of a superstar career bothered to attend her funeral, and remain unscathed. Fans go to their grave[[s) insulting Diana for attending Florence's funeral; those who could not be bothered ... well ...

I’m sensing a lot of deep bitterness here. Only you would use the tragedy of Florence Ballard’s funeral as an opportunity for a verbal assault on the much loved, and greatly missed Mary Wilson. Your repetitive urge to put Mary and Florence down to raise Diana higher is so unnecessary It would appear some are incapable of moving on.

[sup_fan]

IMO the motown family was really a concept pre WDOLG. in those early years, where most of the artists were trying to make a hit and you had the formation of the groups, that seems to be where this "bond" really took hold. You had a group of young adults singing, making a little money, getting some fame, hooking up, being creative, etc.

in 64, the Supremes exploded onto the scene and essentially catapulted over everyone else. they now had the major bookings, the tv appearances, this mega projects, etc. WDOLD and the early Sup hits helped to establish and define the concept of "The Motown Sound." HDH and others took these early songs and patterned hit after hit on this.

And the Motown Revue was less of a focus as The Supremes and the other top acts became huge concert draws on their own.

Most of the bio books mention how crazy busy every group was by the later 60s. Otis says he rarely was able to be with the Sups and Flo since their tour and concert schedules conflicted.

then with Flo's departure from the group and label, you had a situation where someone you were once somewhat close with is no longer around. her personal problems also compounded the isolation - she shut herself off to some degree. and people had moved on with their own lives and careers. she then died 9 years or so after leaving.

If you think about where you were in your career 9 - 15 years ago, you probably had some people you hung out with, had lunch with, regularly went to happy hour with. but if you then got another job, moved to a different city, you may or may not keep in touch. Facebook and the like have helped greatly in keeping in touch. but i someone you worked with and were decent friends with 15 years ago passed away, would you go to the funeral? maybe

[mwmr]

There seems to be nothing but sadness when it comes to Florence Ballard. Cretins boo-ed Diana Ross for attending the funeral. Mary W made a career from Diana's attendance at the funeral and decency in making a statement there. And ... none of the many [[hundreds?) of Motown employees who worked with Florence Ballard and swear to the skies 40+ years later that Florence was cheated out of a superstar career bothered to attend her funeral, and remain unscathed. Fans go to their grave[[s) insulting Diana for attending Florence's funeral; those who could not be bothered ... well ...

the cretinous remark is that Mary made a career out of Diana’s attendance….

[jobeterob]

I once was given a photocopy of Diana's Address Book; there were phone number for Cher, Flo, and Berry in the part I got a copy of. Apparently some employee either scoffed it or made copies.

I didn't see a listing for Mary; but I don't think I got the whole book.

I wonder if Berry has the same phone #. I never tried to call it.

[captainjames]

Hi Rob, I am sure BG has changed that number several times ......LOL
Stevie Wonder was listed as Honorary Pall Bearer but I am not sure he was there. All four tops were there, and a brother of the Gordy family. I want to say Fuller Gordy but its been so long I could be wrong. Someone earlier mentioned a Marvelette and Vandella but I don't remember that. Mary's Wilson sister and mother were there but I don't remember Roosevelt being there. There were at least 4000 fans outside that could not get in the church. The Supremes were loved .....period.

Also, someone mentioned a pic of Diana and Mary at the coffin. I have never seen that picture. So, if you could post it I would really appreciate it. I would think that Betty McGlown and Barbara Martin were aware but if they attended no one would have known who they were.

Rest in Heaven Flo

[carlo]

Also, someone mentioned a pic of Diana and Mary at the coffin. I have never seen that picture. So, if you could post it I would really appreciate it.

I remember seeing this photo once, in the early days of the internet...it was a very blurry/grainy photo. I saw it that one time and never saw it again. I would also appreciate if someone could share it.

[Boogiedown]

It could also come across as a little disingenuous to show up at someone’s funeral if having been MIA during the eight or so years they were struggling ..

[ejluther]

I remember seeing this photo once, in the early days of the internet...it was a very blurry/grainy photo. I saw it that one time and never saw it again. I would also appreciate if someone could share it.
I’ve never seen that, either…anyone?

[blackguy69]

from Facebook. I believe Mary’s sister is behind her

19360

[reese]

I’ve never seen that, either…anyone?

I've never seen the photo of Diana and Mary together at Flo's funeral. But during Diana's HEADLINERS AND LEGENDS special, they showed brief footage of the two of them standing together.

[jobucats]

It could also come across as a little disingenuous to show up at someone’s funeral if having been MIA during the eight or so years they were struggling ..

Wouldn't that come under the premise, "You're damned if you do, and you're damned if you don't."?

[RanRan79]

How many Motown artists show up for Marvin Gaye's funeral or what about Michael Jackson's funeral or Levi Stubb's funeral or what about David Ruffin memorial? Who all showed? Haven't we beaten this topic to death?

I was wondering how many showed up to Paul Williams' funeral. In regards to beating a topic to death: may I introduce you to the forum?:p

[RanRan79]

Hi Rob, I am sure BG has changed that number several times ......LOL
Stevie Wonder was listed as Honorary Pall Bearer but I am not sure he was there. All four tops were there, and a brother of the Gordy family. I want to say Fuller Gordy but its been so long I could be wrong. Someone earlier mentioned a Marvelette and Vandella but I don't remember that. Mary's Wilson sister and mother were there but I don't remember Roosevelt being there. There were at least 4000 fans outside that could not get in the church. The Supremes were loved .....period.

Also, someone mentioned a pic of Diana and Mary at the coffin. I have never seen that picture. So, if you could post it I would really appreciate it. I would think that Betty McGlown and Barbara Martin were aware but if they attended no one would have known who they were.

Rest in Heaven Flo

Been a long time since I read the MTS booklet, but doesn't Barbara mention attending Flo's funeral? Both Roz and Wanda have been documented as being in attendance, as well as Stevie Wonder. I imagine there were other Motown connected people in attendance and there were probably relatives of various Motown alumni who were in attendance to represent the loved one who could not, for various reasons, be in attendance. And then of course we have to keep in mind that not everyone can handle a funeral. I know a lot of people who just don't go no matter who it is. I'm sure in the time after Flo's passing was announced Mrs. Ballard and other Ballard relatives received calls and other tokens of outreach from Motowners because when people die, that's just what people do.

Also important to remember that funerals are for the living, not the dead. So to attend or not attend should never been viewed as a statement on one's relationship to the deceased.

[RanRan79]

I've never seen the photo of Diana and Mary together at Flo's funeral. But during Diana's HEADLINERS AND LEGENDS special, they showed brief footage of the two of them standing together.

I remember that. I've always wondered if the entire service was filmed.

[reese]

I remember that. I've always wondered if the entire service was filmed.

Maybe. Although to me it looked like b-roll grabbed to be shown on NBC NIGHTLY NEWS or something like that.

[Boogiedown]

Wouldn't that come under the premise, "You're damned if you do, and you're damned if you don't."?

if they've set themselves up for such criticism ....ya you're right



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stMzCOFPgBQ

[floyjoy678]

Yeah I haven't seen the photo I referenced in years but I remember it very vividly. I haven't seen the footage. That would be interesting to see.

[ejluther]

Anyone know where one can see the Diana Ross episode of Headliners and Legends?

[woodward]

Been a long time since I read the MTS booklet, but doesn't Barbara mention attending Flo's funeral? Both Roz and Wanda have been documented as being in attendance, as well as Stevie Wonder. I imagine there were other Motown connected people in attendance and there were probably relatives of various Motown alumni who were in attendance to represent the loved one who could not, for various reasons, be in attendance. And then of course we have to keep in mind that not everyone can handle a funeral. I know a lot of people who just don't go no matter who it is. I'm sure in the time after Flo's passing was announced Mrs. Ballard and other Ballard relatives received calls and other tokens of outreach from Motowners because when people die, that's just what people do.

Also important to remember that funerals are for the living, not the dead. So to attend or not attend should never been viewed as a statement on one's relationship to the deceased.

Well the headline in the Detroit News clearly states that ". . . the crowd of nearly 5,000 people who jammed inside and around the church yesterday afternoon for the funeral of Florence Ballard Chapman. . . ." I would venture an educated guess that there were other Motown stars there who were spread throughout the church.

[floyjoy678]

I saw it mentioned that Wanda was at the funeral. I wonder if Gladys went being that her and Flo were very close.

[carlo]

I've never seen the photo of Diana and Mary together at Flo's funeral. But during Diana's HEADLINERS AND LEGENDS special, they showed brief footage of the two of them standing together.

Thanks Reese. This is the photo I remember seeing. Someone had posted a screen shot of this footage. I saw this screen shot posted on a fansite 20 years ago and then never saw it again. If my photographic memory serves me correctly, Mary was looking up with a sad, teary eyed expression, and Diana was standing beside Mary, looking right at her, with a faint smile. I always assumed this was from the moment when Diana called Mary up to the front of the church, to join her for a silent prayer.

[Roberta75]

It could also come across as a little disingenuous to show up at someone’s funeral if having been MIA during the eight or so years they were struggling ..

I look at it as showing up for someone you shared a dream and success with and still loved. You say potato and i say potatah. Its all how we individually look at things. Diana gets blasted for attending by many but Mr Gordy gets a free pass for not attending by many. Potato Potatah.

[floyjoy678]

I look at it as showing up for someone you shared a dream and success with and still loved. You say potato and i say potatah. Its all how we individually look at things. Diana gets blasted for attending by many but Mr Gordy gets a free pass for not attending by many. Potato Potatah.

I think Berry knew better than to show up. He's the one who Flo had the issues with. And I agree, I think people let him get away with too much. The way he treated Diana, Flo and Mary well let's just call it what it was: abusive.

[Ollie9]

I think Berry knew better than to show up. He's the one who Flo had the issues with. And I agree, I think people let him get away with too much. The way he treated Diana, Flo and Mary well let's just call it what it was: abusive.

I agree in that prior to her death, Flo still held huge resentment for Gordy as opposed to Diana. His instincts were spot on in not attending.
For Diana it was a very difficult situation. Her absence would probably have been construed as not caring had she not turned up. Her only mistake was making herself the focus of attention at such an emotionally charged event.
Wrongly or rightly she paid paid the price, cast by global media as the attention seeking diva.

[Roberta75]

I think Berry knew better than to show up. He's the one who Flo had the issues with. And I agree, I think people let him get away with too much. The way he treated Diana, Flo and Mary well let's just call it what it was: abusive.

Thankfully because of Me Too and stricter labor laws Berry and Motown would never get away with that behavior today.

[RanRan79]

Well the headline in the Detroit News clearly states that ". . . the crowd of nearly 5,000 people who jammed inside and around the church yesterday afternoon for the funeral of Florence Ballard Chapman. . . ." I would venture an educated guess that there were other Motown stars there who were spread throughout the church.

"Stars" might be pushing it. Flo's Motown peers spread throughout might be more accurate, folks like Kim Weston or one more Contours. As previously stated, with the day of the funeral having to be changed, any of the bigger name folks, such as Marvin, Gladys and the Pips, the Tempts, etc, who may have planned to come just couldn't accommodate the date change in their schedules.

[Boogiedown]

oh come now, you don't really say potatah :p

[RanRan79]

I think Berry knew better than to show up. He's the one who Flo had the issues with. And I agree, I think people let him get away with too much. The way he treated Diana, Flo and Mary well let's just call it what it was: abusive.

It's possible that Gordy may have skipped the service because he figured the Ballard family might be hostile toward him, but the more likely reason is that he wasn't overly fond of Florence after a certain point and saw no need to attend the funeral. Personally, I'm okay with that.

[[I know Gordy is often seen at Motown funerals over the last couple decades or so, but did he usually attend funerals of Motowners back then? I'm thinking Paul Williams, Tammi T, Benny Benjaminson, Shorty Long...am I missing anyone?)

But other than the Ballards, there is no chance that Gordy was ever going to get what Diana got for being there. Women, and Black women in particular, are so often maligned for behavior that is excused or overlooked in men. The truth is that, while Diana's hands weren't dirty when it came to the issues in the Supremes, she did not hold the ultimate power, Gordy did. Diana didn't fire Flo and she didn't talk Gordy into getting rid of her either. There came a point when she obviously encouraged the move when she felt it became necessary, but so did Mary. But ultimately Gordy was Papa Supreme, he made all the decisions. Even reading Flo's own words on the issue it's clear that her resentment and anger was directed solely at him. And while she held a POV on things that Diana and Mary said or did at one time or another, I don't read anger in her statements. She felt Gordy was her problem.

Yet even now, go on Youtube or any other social media platform where the Supremes are being discussed and the arrows fly at Diana, not Berry. There's a video that constantly comes up in my feed that has a title like "The Reason Behind Florence Ballard's Demise" or maybe it's "Is Diana Ross the Reason For Florence Ballard's Death", or something along those provocative lines. Curiosity tries to get me to click the video just to see and hear what's being said, but in the end I move on because I can't stomach a bunch of idiotic comments about what Diana Ross did to Flo Ballard. Ultimately Flo was the captain of her own ship. Life wasn't fair to her, but it was up to her to do something about it. Unfortunately by the time she began to take major steps in moving in the right direction, her time here on earth was soon to be over. Sucks. But Diana isn't to blame for that. And truth be told, neither is Gordy. But for the things he should be blamed for, there are people invested in Diana getting that attention, which is insane to me.

[RanRan79]

I agree in that prior to her death, Flo still held huge resentment for Gordy as opposed to Diana. His instincts were spot on in not attending.
For Diana it was a very difficult situation. Her absence would probably have been construed as not caring had she not turned up. Her only mistake was making herself the focus of attention at such an emotionally charged event.
Wrongly or rightly she paid paid the price, cast by global media as the attention seeking diva.

I can agree with this. There's talk that once inside the church Diana became very emotional in a dramatic fashion. If true, I've never faulted her for that. I've been to enough funerals to expect audible gasps, fainting, screams, someone having to be escorted to a seat, etc. Diana is human after all, and subject to human moments like the rest of us. I never thought that her having that reaction was her attempting to get attention, as has been alleged.

However, I do think it weird that she didn't wait in line with her mother and sister and sit with them, or at least, considering it might have been safer for her to go directly inside, that she should have been seated with her own family, instead of up front with Flo's family. It looked like she was trying to get attention. Whether that's what she was doing or not, it was the optics of the thing.

I do not fault her for getting up to say something. I do fault her for pulling Mary into it without asking her. A few years ago after the death of a loved one, a family member took it upon herself to put people on the program without asking them if they would like to speak or sing. So folks arrived at the funeral, in no frame of mind to do anything other than grieve, only to find out they were to speak or sing. It pissed folks off, and rightfully so. Diana crossed a line and Mary should've checked her for it [[later).

Ultimately, I do believe that if Flo could've had a say, she would've wanted both Diana and Mary there. The three of them shared such an extraordinary experience together. They made history together. For decades to come, any three females, especially any three Black females, would forever be compared to the Supremes. Seemed only right that the two remaining ladies be there for Flo's final send off.

[sup_fan]

yeah i don't think it was inappropriate for Berry to not attend. he sent a beautiful arrangement and also had motown pay for the entire thing. it is very possible that he had his own personal reasons - he really had a very strong relationship with the 3 girls early on and then it turned very negative. then both sides had strong animosity towards each other and then one passed away. Berry is a person and has emotions [[even if he hides them). so we certainly don't know what tornado of thoughts and emotions flowed through his mind during this time. if he chose to handle his grief in a specific manner, that's his prerogative.

[sup_fan]

Ran - i agree with you on the Diana/Mary thing. Diana really should have reached out to Mary prior [[assuming that she didn't). But at the same point, both were there at the funeral and so it is, frankly, appropriate that both D and M to at least stand together by the casket. it shouldn't have been that huge a shock to mary that she would need to at least stand with diana by the coffin.

also Diana should have gone to the grave too.

[reese]

Ran - i agree with you on the Diana/Mary thing. Diana really should have reached out to Mary prior [[assuming that she didn't). But at the same point, both were there at the funeral and so it is, frankly, appropriate that both D and M to at least stand together by the casket. it shouldn't have been that huge a shock to mary that she would need to at least stand with diana by the coffin.

also Diana should have gone to the grave too.

I can understand Mary being perturbed that Diana called her up for an unplanned prayer. I'm sure Diana's heart was in the right place but grief is a personal and private thing and Mary shouldn't have been put on the spot like that. As it was, I believe Mary said they hadn't spoken in months and afterwards, never discussed Flo's passing.

As for Diana going to the grave, again, IMO, there are no should haves in such a situation. Some people don't like to see the actual lowering of the body into the ground. I certainly understand it, having attended at least one burial where that moment resulted in emotional moaning and groaning that I wish I didn't witness.

[floyjoy678]

IIRC, Diana wanted to console Florence's daughters which is how she ended up sitting up front or at least that was her words of why.

She also said she was too distraught and wanted to grieve privately which is why she didn't end up at the cemetery.

Her and Mary definitely should have talked before the funeral and I'm very surprised they didn't. But I think it was only appropriate they stood up at the casket together. Sad to think that the three of them were only together twice after they split, including this one time.

[ejluther]

IIRC, Diana wanted to console Florence's daughters which is how she ended up sitting up front or at least that was her words of why.

She also said she was too distraught and wanted to grieve privately which is why she didn't end up at the cemetery.

Her and Mary definitely should have talked before the funeral and I'm very surprised they didn't. But I think it was only appropriate they stood up at the casket together. Sad to think that the three of them were only together twice after they split, including this one time.
When was the other time?

[RanRan79]

Ran - i agree with you on the Diana/Mary thing. Diana really should have reached out to Mary prior [[assuming that she didn't). But at the same point, both were there at the funeral and so it is, frankly, appropriate that both D and M to at least stand together by the casket. it shouldn't have been that huge a shock to mary that she would need to at least stand with diana by the coffin.

also Diana should have gone to the grave too.

I agree it was appropriate for the two women to speak at Flo's funeral, but I don't believe it was something either woman had to do. Like I said before, I've seen what happens when people are forced to get up in front of a church full of people unexpectedly to have words in the midst of grief. Frankly I find it disrespectful to put someone on the spot like that. I don't believe that was Diana's intention, but that was the result.

As for Diana going to the cemetery, I know lots of people who skip that part. It can be extremely emotional to watch a casket lowered into the ground. It's also possible that Diana's schedule would only permit her to attend the service and then head back to wherever she came from.

[RanRan79]

IIRC, Diana wanted to console Florence's daughters which is how she ended up sitting up front or at least that was her words of why.

She also said she was too distraught and wanted to grieve privately which is why she didn't end up at the cemetery.

Her and Mary definitely should have talked before the funeral and I'm very surprised they didn't. But I think it was only appropriate they stood up at the casket together. Sad to think that the three of them were only together twice after they split, including this one time.

Diana and Mary had a weird relationship post Supremes. Honestly it's strange that they never spoke about Flo's death with one another. Seems like as soon as the news broke that either woman would have called the other to at least see how the other one was holding up. But communication appears to be the actual wedge that came between the two women. So much of the controversies post Supremes between them could have been avoided with woman to woman conversations.

[RanRan79]

When was the other time?

About a year after Flo was fired. The three of them were at a party at Gordy's house. It didn't end well.

[ejluther]

About a year after Flo was fired. The three of them were at a party at Gordy's house. It didn't end well.
Thanks - I couldn’t remember when that party fell in the timeline…

[captainjames]

All I will say fans that if Diana had of went to that casket without Mary she would have been blasted. Diana felt it was right that the two of them went together Mary could have said no but she didn't. I really don't know what was wrong here.

[Spreadinglove21]

Questions for anyone who may know:

For the official funeral program, was Diana Ross scheduled to give prepared remarks?

If not, was there a portion of the funeral set aside that was open for anyone who wanted to get up to speak to those attending about Florence?

[reese]

Questions for anyone who may know:

For the official funeral program, was Diana Ross scheduled to give prepared remarks?

If not, was there a portion of the funeral set aside that was open for anyone who wanted to get up to speak to those attending about Florence?

Currently, there is a Flo funeral program on Ebay. I have no idea whether or not it is legitimate as I've seen programs with two different cover photos. In any event, this one doesn't list Diana in the program and doesn't seem to have a slot for personal remembrances.

[sup_fan]

I can understand Mary being perturbed that Diana called her up for an unplanned prayer. I'm sure Diana's heart was in the right place but grief is a personal and private thing and Mary shouldn't have been put on the spot like that. As it was, I believe Mary said they hadn't spoken in months and afterwards, never discussed Flo's passing.

As for Diana going to the grave, again, IMO, there are no should haves in such a situation. Some people don't like to see the actual lowering of the body into the ground. I certainly understand it, having attended at least one burial where that moment resulted in emotional moaning and groaning that I wish I didn't witness.

all very valid points. and i do completely agree with you. it's a very complicated chapter in the overall Supremes story.

[sup_fan]

I agree it was appropriate for the two women to speak at Flo's funeral, but I don't believe it was something either woman had to do. Like I said before, I've seen what happens when people are forced to get up in front of a church full of people unexpectedly to have words in the midst of grief. Frankly I find it disrespectful to put someone on the spot like that. I don't believe that was Diana's intention, but that was the result.

As for Diana going to the cemetery, I know lots of people who skip that part. It can be extremely emotional to watch a casket lowered into the ground. It's also possible that Diana's schedule would only permit her to attend the service and then head back to wherever she came from.

yeah i don't think mary was obligated to speak, sing or give a prayer. But just like Mary said she felt Diana was obligated to be at the gravesite since the 3 of them had shared some of the most important aspects of Flo's life, i feel mary was obligated to at least join Diana at the casket in the front of the church so the 3 of them were together one last time. she could have not made any statement but i do think they both needed to be there, just the two of them, with Flo at the end.

but again. i completely get it that grief is a highly personal emotion

[Roberta75]

I agree it was appropriate for the two women to speak at Flo's funeral, but I don't believe it was something either woman had to do. Like I said before, I've seen what happens when people are forced to get up in front of a church full of people unexpectedly to have words in the midst of grief. Frankly I find it disrespectful to put someone on the spot like that. I don't believe that was Diana's intention, but that was the result.

As for Diana going to the cemetery, I know lots of people who skip that part. It can be extremely emotional to watch a casket lowered into the ground. It's also possible that Diana's schedule would only permit her to attend the service and then head back to wherever she came from.

My sister always goes to the church but will never attend the graveside burial even at our Grandma Ruth's funeral.

[Roberta75]

I can agree with this. There's talk that once inside the church Diana became very emotional in a dramatic fashion. If true, I've never faulted her for that. I've been to enough funerals to expect audible gasps, fainting, screams, someone having to be escorted to a seat, etc. Diana is human after all, and subject to human moments like the rest of us. I never thought that her having that reaction was her attempting to get attention, as has been alleged.

However, I do think it weird that she didn't wait in line with her mother and sister and sit with them, or at least, considering it might have been safer for her to go directly inside, that she should have been seated with her own family, instead of up front with Flo's family. It looked like she was trying to get attention. Whether that's what she was doing or not, it was the optics of the thing.

I do not fault her for getting up to say something. I do fault her for pulling Mary into it without asking her. A few years ago after the death of a loved one, a family member took it upon herself to put people on the program without asking them if they would like to speak or sing. So folks arrived at the funeral, in no frame of mind to do anything other than grieve, only to find out they were to speak or sing. It pissed folks off, and rightfully so. Diana crossed a line and Mary should've checked her for it [[later).

Ultimately, I do believe that if Flo could've had a say, she would've wanted both Diana and Mary there. The three of them shared such an extraordinary experience together. They made history together. For decades to come, any three females, especially any three Black females, would forever be compared to the Supremes. Seemed only right that the two remaining ladies be there for Flo's final send off.

Preach RanRan Preach.

[RanRan79]

All I will say fans that if Diana had of went to that casket without Mary she would have been blasted. Diana felt it was right that the two of them went together Mary could have said no but she didn't. I really don't know what was wrong here.

What's wrong is a thing called boundaries and respect. You don't put people on the spot. If you'd like further thoughts on the subject, I have several family members that will recall for you their horror of being placed on a program at the funeral of a beloved relative without their permission. Imagine yourself, seated in a church, your heart broken in the worst way, and then discover that in the midst of how you're feeling somebody expects you to get up and talk about your feelings. You have no time to prepare, not your words, not your state of mind. Some did decline not to speak because they were too overwrought. Others, while pissed and horrified, went ahead and spoke in order to keep the drama to a minimum. Since the person who crossed the line was an elder, that was the only thing that kept the entire ordeal free of an ass whooping. Personally had she been dumb enough to put my name on there without permission, she would've gotten cussed out [[later on, of course, not at the church).

None of the ones who were called on thought it was no big deal. You just don't do that to people, especially people who are grieving. Mary could've declined, but as she explained, she was in shock. Diana had every right to speak at Flo's funeral. She had no right to pull Mary or anyone else into whatever she was trying to do.

Over the last few years I've become amazed at the lack of compassion and understanding for those in mourning.

[RanRan79]

Questions for anyone who may know:

For the official funeral program, was Diana Ross scheduled to give prepared remarks?

If not, was there a portion of the funeral set aside that was open for anyone who wanted to get up to speak to those attending about Florence?

If I recall correctly, Diana said she spoke in order to bring some calm to the service, which had gotten out of hand, thanks to the presence of people who were more interested in star gazing than paying their respects to the deceased. I don't think she was an official part of the program.

[RanRan79]

yeah i don't think mary was obligated to speak, sing or give a prayer. But just like Mary said she felt Diana was obligated to be at the gravesite since the 3 of them had shared some of the most important aspects of Flo's life, i feel mary was obligated to at least join Diana at the casket in the front of the church so the 3 of them were together one last time. she could have not made any statement but i do think they both needed to be there, just the two of them, with Flo at the end.

but again. i completely get it that grief is a highly personal emotion

The difference between the two is that Mary felt Diana should've been there. She didn't force her to go or put her on the spot. Diana did that to Mary. Diana could've spoken and felt within herself that Mary should be up there too, but she didn't have to put Mary on the spot. But lets keep it real, Diana wasn't always known as someone who thought about how her actions might affect someone else. I imagine to Mary this was more of the same "Diana being Diana" that would sometimes cause resentment. I have to wonder if everyone who felt some type of way about Diana's "selfishness" in the early days had really gotten in her ass and in her ear about considering other people's feelings, maybe some of their relationships with her could have evolved without the resentment. If you let someone get away with something so often, they're bound to figure they can get away with it whenever they feel like it. I believe this was some of the negative side of Diana Ross. She didn't get checked enough back in the day.

[RanRan79]

My sister always goes to the church but will never attend the graveside burial even at our Grandma Ruth's funeral.

Yeah, I know a lot of folks who do that. I know some who just won't do funerals at all. Had a great uncle who didn't go to his mother's- my great grandma- funeral. He said after my great grandfather's funeral that he'd never go to another one, and he didn't, not even his own mama's.

I'll skip the graveyard too unless it's someone I'm really close to. While the scene can be very emotional, I just feel like I have to be at that last thing that happens on earth. A closure thing, I guess.

[Ollie9]

I have never blamed Diana for not being at the graveside. I think her attending the service was more then enough.
Her actions inside the church though were extremely ill advised. She probably called upon Mary for moral support, problem being Mary had not been informed and was rightly outraged. It is possible it was a spur of the moment decision, but still makes for appalling etiquette. Shades of Motown 25.
I wonder what would have happened had it been Mary who had asked Diana to join her in a private prayer. Would the media have reacted the way they did?. Would Diana have played the diva and refused?.

[reese]

I have never blamed Diana for not being at the graveside. I think her attending the service was more then enough.
Her actions inside the church though were extremely ill advised. She probably called upon Mary for moral support, problem being Mary had not been informed and was rightly outraged. It is possible it was a spur of the moment decision, but still makes for appalling etiquette. Shades of Motown 25.
I wonder what would have happened had it been Mary who had asked Diana to join her in a private prayer. Would the media have reacted the way they did?. Would Diana have played the diva and refused?.

Did the media react badly to Diana's action? I don't recall reading any specifics about the service at the time. If I'm not mistaken, it wasn't until Mary wrote about the funeral in her first book that most of us even knew what happened that day. I suspect if it had been Mary who had done this instead, Diana would have just gotten up, joined Mary, and we never would have known about it being unplanned.

As I've often said, when it comes to Diana, often she is damned if she does and damned if she doesn't. I once told a friend that Diana could stand in the middle of Times Square and hand out $50 bills and someone would complain that they weren't $100s.

[floyjoy678]

Diana wrote that she received bad press for it.

And yes as someone else wrote, Mary and Diana had a weird relationship after the Supremes ended. While I think they both loved each other, I think their relationship was damaged from the tension the last few years they sang together and it just never recovered. Had they just sat down and hashed things out like normal people do, I'm sure it would have been a different story.

[reese]

Diana wrote that she received bad press for it.

And yes as someone else wrote, Mary and Diana had a weird relationship after the Supremes ended. While I think they both loved each other, I think their relationship was damaged from the tension the last few years they sang together and it just never recovered. Had they just sat down and hashed things out like normal people do, I'm sure it would have been a different story.

Now that you refreshed my memory, I do remember Diana writing that she got bad press for it. But at the time [1976], I don't recall reading or hearing anything about what she might have done.

[Boogiedown]

.

I'm not reading anything here I would call egregious. Seems like Diana was going out of her way to make sure Mary was included and so that she wasn't seen as trying to upstage her. She was trying to present the unity of The Supremes even at this time....this last time. As far as not pre-planning or speaking to each other in advance, I'm not reading that Mary tried to reach Diana but couldn't get through. So that they didn't, is as much on each of them as the other.

Did they both attend alone or were they with someone??



the thread's review of this event is quite interesting

[lucky2012]

.

I'm not reading anything here I would call egregious. Seems like Diana was going out of her way to make sure Mary was included and so that she wasn't seen as trying to upstage her. She was trying to present the unity of The Supremes even at this time....this last time. As far as not pre-planning or speaking to each other in advance, I'm not reading that Mary tried to reach Diana but couldn't get through. So that they didn't, is as much on each of them as the other.

Did they both attend alone or were they with someone??



the thread's review of this event is quite interesting

Good points, Boogiedown.

[Ollie9]

.

I'm not reading anything here I would call egregious. Seems like Diana was going out of her way to make sure Mary was included and so that she wasn't seen as trying to upstage her. She was trying to present the unity of The Supremes even at this time....this last time. As far as not pre-planning or speaking to each other in advance, I'm not reading that Mary tried to reach Diana but couldn't get through. So that they didn't, is as much on each of them as the other.

Did they both attend alone or were they with someone??



the thread's review of this event is quite interesting

I disagree Boogie. Why would Mary contact Diana when her only intention was to stand with everyone else and pay her last respects in her own personal, private way.
If Diana had intended a joint tribute, she should at least of had the curtesy of running it past Mary who may well have said thanks, but no thanks my love. It’s good etiquette.
As it was, Mary was pretty much forced into it. This was not a Supremes show after all.

[captainjames]

Sorry, but I have always looked at this from a positive side. if Diana went up by herself, Rev. Franklin would have ask if Mary wanted to say anything. Diana recently said very few words about Mary passing and has been criticized for that as well.

All I know is that they loved each other especially Flo but Motown, politics, egos, and time got in their path.

[Ollie9]

Sorry, but I have always looked at this from a positive side. if Diana went up by herself, Rev. Franklin would have ask if Mary wanted to say anything. Diana recently said very few words about Mary passing and has been criticized for that as well.

All I know is that they loved each other especially Flo but Motown, politics, egos, and time got in their path.

That’s simply not true. No reverend worth their salt would ever take it upon themselves to select a member of the congregation at a funeral to make an impromptu speech. I can’t imagine to many peeps being happy with that one. I know I most certainly wouldn’t. It’s no wonder Mary was utterly dismayed by Diana’s actions.
I haven’t seen any criticism aimed at Diana regarding Mary’s passing. Considering the nature of their relationship, i think she probably said enough.

[reese]

...I haven’t seen any criticism aimed at Diana regarding Mary’s passing. Considering the nature of their relationship, i think she probably said enough.

I read some complaints on Facebook but I wasn't surprised.

Diana sent out a heartfelt message when the news first broke of Mary's passing and some complained that it wasn't enough. Later in the day, she sent out a more formal message and some complained about that. I thought both responses were fine. But as I wrote earlier, sometimes Diana is damned if she does, and damned if she doesn't.

[PeaceNHarmony]

I read some complaints on Facebook but I wasn't surprised.

Diana sent out a heartfelt message when the news first broke of Mary's passing and some complained that it wasn't enough. Later in the day, she sent out a more formal message and some complained about that. I thought both responses were fine. But as I wrote earlier, sometimes Diana is damned if she does, and damned if she doesn't.My only disagreement with your post, Reese, is that 'sometimes' should be replaced by 'always'!

[Boogiedown]

I disagree Boogie. Why would Mary contact Diana when her only intention was to stand with everyone else and pay her last respects in her own personal, private way.
If Diana had intended a joint tribute, she should at least of had the curtesy of running it past Mary who may well have said thanks, but no thanks my love. It’s good etiquette.
As it was, Mary was pretty much forced into it. This was not a Supremes show after all.

I get your point Ollie, Mary felt blindsided and was forced into doing something she wasn't prepared for, and especially in such a very personal, sensitive situation. She probably thought, "She's at it again , bossy Miss Rossy!" lol!

I'm not saying that the two should have called each other to choreograph their behavior, but good grief , if ever there was a time for them to reach out to each other .... and then while commiserating they might have segued into some thoughts about the funeral.

I don't think you're saying Diana went out of her way to use the situation to somehow get at Mary....don't you think her intentions were good? She couldn't very well pull Mary to the side at this point for a strategy, and I suspect Diana was doing what seemed right to her in the moment. Maybe she went into "Supremes" mode and it seemed natural to her to"lead" Mary ... who in turn was well past that.

I suspect that when Diana later read how that upset Mary, she was probably surprised and firmly decided , I'm not going to win with that woman and decided it was therefore best to stay away.

[IMissFlo93]

Don't you all get it? It's Reggie Harding's fault for tearing the original trio apart! I know Flo asked, but her brother should have came to stop it, because Reggie Harding is as bad as Bluto from Popeye


Reggie lusted for light-skinned women due to Reggie's troubled life after his own unfotuante childhood and acted as "friend" just to have Flo be his damsel.

The Florence Ballard memorial twitter should come forward and tell about Reggie. Yes, Flo's dead, but people then will "judge" Reggie forever.

[Ollie9]

I get your point Ollie, Mary felt blindsided and was forced into doing something she wasn't prepared for, and especially in such a very personal, sensitive situation. She probably thought, "She's at it again , bossy Miss Rossy!" lol!
.

She probably did Boog lol. Let’s just say i think it would have served Diana better if in this instance, she had put aside her need to take control and let others grieve in a way they personally deemed fitting. Grief is to personal an emotion to be directed by another.

[Spreadinglove21]

Wasn't Diana Ross booed and jeered by those outside the church as she made her way into the church? If so, I wonder if being on the receiving end of such a reception played a part in her decision to make remarks and bring Mary up to be with her?

[floyjoy678]

I remember reading the outside crowd went berserk when Flo's coffin was brought out of the church and they had to throw out souvenirs to the crowd to keep them away. I shudder to think what they were trying to do.

[JohnnyB]

I remember reading the outside crowd went berserk when Flo's coffin was brought out of the church and they had to throw out souvenirs to the crowd to keep them away. I shudder to think what they were trying to do.

That is true. I lived in Detroit at the time and scenes from the funeral were broadcast on the Friday evening news. I was a new fan, terrified of funerals and too young to fully grasp the chaos, but I do remember the coverage.

[jim aka jtigre99]

A very valid point was brought up regarding communication between Diana, Mary and Florence. They were very good friends and loved each other but they all have said the three of them had very different personalities. Remember, they started out together as three equal members of a group and became friends. Florence was earthy and outspoken, Diana was aggressive and needed to be the center of attention and Mary was the beautiful, peacemaker who never really let anyone know how she felt[[she herself said she was a bit of a chicken). Initially, when they became successful they were like the Beatles in that the press and the public knew all three of them, they all had name recognition and the press spoke equally with all 3 of them. Diana being the lead singer and so talented and unique she garnered more and more attention-this came about also because of some of Motown's orchestrations were people were directed to only ask Diana questions or when she would make appearances solo followed by Mary and Florence later. Even though it came from her talent, clearly this also helped her become a focus even though both Florence and Mary were initially covered as a part of the group and that they were also talented and unique. Motown was shortsighted in how this was handled and it caused internal tensions between the 3 of them even if they did love each other. Florence expressed her dissatisfaction openly by missing dates and finding solace in alcohol. Mary tried to keep the group together by supporting Diana and trying to be neutral peacemaker with Florence. She never really expressed how all of this was making her feel, she was trying to keep the three of them together. By the time it became Diana Ross & The Supremes, I am sure communication between the three of them was nearly nonexistent. Diana always had the need to control and be in the spotlight, she thought her bandmates would be happy for her and really didn't take into account how everything playing out made them feel. Mary probably never confronted Diana over what had happened but it would only be natural that she would not be happy that her friend was now using the group as a launching pad for her solo career. Mary may have never discussed how she felt with Diana but it had to be tense like anyone would feel during that situation they had during 1967-9. Clearly, that drew a wedge in their friendship that never recovered. There must have been minimal communication between the two. The fact that Mary and Diana did not reach out to each other to talk about Florence's passing obviously meant there was a wedge that happened that would never be bridged again if the passing of Florence did not cause them to reach out to one another and talk. The relationship between Diana and Mary must have had an unresolved problem once Florence left and the group was simply a launching pad for Ross' solo career. They didn't talk when Flo passed, when they joined together for Motown 25 or when they were negotiating for the ill fated RTL in 2000. Mary always said it was simply negotiations and she was not part of the planning. I remember that Mary was on television and said when Diana called it was not about let's get together and talk about what the reunion tour was together, it was Diana saying they wanted to do the business first. Diana said Mary answered her call with what took you so long without considering that Mary may have made her own tour plans and that she should be grateful that Diana called about it.She was surprised Mary was upset that she finally called thinking she would be grateful to be a part of it without thinking about Mary's thoughts. So, for something like that they were still not communicating even in 2000. The 1967-9 era that caused the break in their friendship was newer in 1976 when Florence passed, so the fact that they did not communicate at all when Flo passed speaks volumes. Yet, they all still loved each other and they all publicly said so, it was just personally and privately there was a break that could never be repaired no matter what happened. And that is truly sad on all of their parts.

[Boogiedown]

A very valid point was brought up regarding communication between Diana, Mary and Florence. They were very good friends and loved each other but they all have said the three of them had very different personalities. Remember, they started out together as three equal members of a group and became friends. Florence was earthy and outspoken, Diana was aggressive and needed to be the center of attention and Mary was the beautiful, peacemaker who never really let anyone know how she felt[[she herself said she was a bit of a chicken). Initially, when they became successful they were like the Beatles in that the press and the public knew all three of them, they all had name recognition and the press spoke equally with all 3 of them. Diana being the lead singer and so talented and unique she garnered more and more attention-this came about also because of some of Motown's orchestrations were people were directed to only ask Diana questions or when she would make appearances solo followed by Mary and Florence later. Even though it came from her talent, clearly this also helped her become a focus even though both Florence and Mary were initially covered as a part of the group and that they were also talented and unique. Motown was shortsighted in how this was handled and it caused internal tensions between the 3 of them even if they did love each other. Florence expressed her dissatisfaction openly by missing dates and finding solace in alcohol. Mary tried to keep the group together by supporting Diana and trying to be neutral peacemaker with Florence. She never really expressed how all of this was making her feel, she was trying to keep the three of them together. By the time it became Diana Ross & The Supremes, I am sure communication between the three of them was nearly nonexistent. Diana always had the need to control and be in the spotlight, she thought her bandmates would be happy for her and really didn't take into account how everything playing out made them feel. Mary probably never confronted Diana over what had happened but it would only be natural that she would not be happy that her friend was now using the group as a launching pad for her solo career. Mary may have never discussed how she felt with Diana but it had to be tense like anyone would feel during that situation they had during 1967-9. Clearly, that drew a wedge in their friendship that never recovered. There must have been minimal communication between the two. The fact that Mary and Diana did not reach out to each other to talk about Florence's passing obviously meant there was a wedge that happened that would never be bridged again if the passing of Florence did not cause them to reach out to one another and talk. The relationship between Diana and Mary must have had an unresolved problem once Florence left and the group was simply a launching pad for Ross' solo career. They didn't talk when Flo passed, when they joined together for Motown 25 or when they were negotiating for the ill fated RTL in 2000. Mary always said it was simply negotiations and she was not part of the planning. I remember that Mary was on television and said when Diana called it was not about let's get together and talk about what the reunion tour was together, it was Diana saying they wanted to do the business first. Diana said Mary answered her call with what took you so long without considering that Mary may have made her own tour plans and that she should be grateful that Diana called about it.She was surprised Mary was upset that she finally called thinking she would be grateful to be a part of it without thinking about Mary's thoughts. So, for something like that they were still not communicating even in 2000. The 1967-9 era that caused the break in their friendship was newer in 1976 when Florence passed, so the fact that they did not communicate at all when Flo passed speaks volumes. Yet, they all still loved each other and they all publicly said so, it was just personally and privately there was a break that could never be repaired no matter what happened. And that is truly sad on all of their parts.


Good post .... but have to say- if this is how people that 'love' each other behave and treat each other - I'm glad they weren't enemies!

[Ollie9]

Good post .... but have to say- if this is how people that 'love' each other behave and treat each other - I'm glad they weren't enemies!

Love means never having to say you’re sorry.

[Spreadinglove21]

Diana had a tendency to be rude and inconsiderate of other people's feelings and when not on stage performing, not being aware of how her actions may come across to others.

Mary had a tendency to be passive aggressive and keeping things bottled up until they burst out in unproductive ways.

Not good traits on either end to maintain a healthy relationship.

[RanRan79]

Diana had a tendency to be rude and inconsiderate of other people's feelings and when not on stage performing, not being aware of how her actions may come across to others.

Mary had a tendency to be passive aggressive and keeping things bottled up until they burst out in unproductive ways.

Not good traits on either end to maintain a healthy relationship.

Boom! Excellent observation.

[Boogiedown]

Love means never having to say you’re sorry.


hee hee . [I wonder how many people fell for that clunker!:p]

[floyjoy678]

Out of the three of them, it seems Flo was the most honest about her feelings even if it wasn't in a productive way. I often have wondered if her phone call to Diana before her death would have been a renewal in their friendship and if it would have helped Diana and Mary's damaged relationship.

[RanRan79]

Out of the three of them, it seems Flo was the most honest about her feelings even if it wasn't in a productive way. I often have wondered if her phone call to Diana before her death would have been a renewal in their friendship and if it would have helped Diana and Mary's damaged relationship.

Apparently it renewed their friendship. It is said that Diana offered Flo use of her home if she decided to come out to LA to work on getting back into the biz. That's something you only do for friends and family that you trust. Had Flo lived and taken Diana up on that offer, one can only speculate how long that friendship would've lasted.:cool:

I don't know if Flo could've helped Diana and Mary's relationship. She might have ended up finding herself caught in the middle, in much the same way Mary found herself between Flo and Diana during that last year of Flo's time as a Supreme. I think a lot of Mary's issues with Diana really ramped up during the DRATS period, of which Flo wasn't around to witness. Also, it's possible that Flo might have been focused on her own life and maintaining relationships with both Diana and Mary, but not willing to be "bothered" with helping them maintain relationships with one another.

But I agree, Flo did seem to be the most honest and vocal about her feelings. The problem was that it seems at a certain point that she'd voice these feelings when she had reached her wit's end and thus created a combustible situation.

[jobucats]

None of the ones who were called on thought it was no big deal. You just don't do that to people, especially people who are grieving. Mary could've declined, but as she explained, she was in shock. Diana had every right to speak at Flo's funeral. She had no right to pull Mary or anyone else into whatever she was trying to do.

.

This is another "She would be damned if she did; she would be damned if she didn't" in reference in pulling in Mary. I tend to believe that Diana probably didn't go into the service intending on saying anything; however, she felt a spontaneous need to do so. Once she got up ,she, with no bad intentions, felt that Mary should be recognized and to join her in making comments. Suppose she had not mentioned Mary...you know her haters there who were already emotionally charged would have pounced on her as taking advantage of drawing attention to herself without acknowledging Mary. Suppose she had not said anything at all? She would have been blasted. As many are already stating, people deal with grief in so many different ways. From what I have gathered from Diana over the years, she doesn't feel comfortable with funerals period.

[RanRan79]

This is another "She would be damned if she did; she would be damned if she didn't" in reference in pulling in Mary. I tend to believe that Diana probably didn't go into the service intending on saying anything; however, she felt a spontaneous need to do so. Once she got up ,she, with no bad intentions, felt that Mary should be recognized and to join her in making comments. Suppose she had not mentioned Mary...you know her haters there who were already emotionally charged would have pounced on her as taking advantage of drawing attention to herself without acknowledging Mary. Suppose she had not said anything at all? She would have been blasted. As many are already stating, people deal with grief in so many different ways. From what I have gathered from Diana over the years, she doesn't feel comfortable with funerals period.

If that's the case, then she could've had one of the funeral attendants go back and whisper to Mary, "Diana wants to have words about Flo and would like to know if you're willing to join her." That's what you do when you want to consider someone else's feelings. The truth is that in life many of us- if not all of us- are damned if we do or damned if we don't in someway. Diana is not special in that regard. But it is up to us each to do the right thing. Diana speaking was a nice thing to do. Diana pulling Mary into it without checking with her first was the wrong thing to do. I may be in the minority here, but this isn't a gray area issue to me.

[nomis]

About a year after Flo was fired. The three of them were at a party at Gordy's house. It didn't end well.

"Forever Faithful" book states that Flo was in the audience for one show when Cindy took over..

[Ollie9]

"Forever Faithful" book states that Flo was in the audience for one show when Cindy took over..

One can only guess at the thoughts running through her head.

[RanRan79]

"Forever Faithful" book states that Flo was in the audience for one show when Cindy took over..

As I mentioned in the thread about this book about a month ago, I didn't believe it then and I don't believe it now.

[nomis]

As I mentioned in the thread about this book about a month ago, I didn't believe it then and I don't believe it now.

Oops been away from the forum for a couple of months will look for the thread as I always enjoy your point of view RanRan ..hope you are well

[Circa 1824]

Mary lived in the world of victimhood. She was the perennial victim. It was usually at the hands of Diana. I never bought into it, and that is why I never liked or respected her.

But, it sure made her a lot of money and gathered her much needed attention and sympathy.

[ballardfan67]

I have never seen that photo before

[blackguy69]

Give it a rest
Mary lived in the world of victimhood. She was the perennial victim. It was usually at the hands of Diana. I never bought into it, and that is why I never liked or respected her.

But, it sure made her a lot of money and gathered her much needed attention and sympathy.

[marybrewster]

As I mentioned in the thread about this book about a month ago, I didn't believe it then and I don't believe it now.

Much like Tony Turner was going to take Flo to the "Farewell" concert? Lol.

This does bring up a good question though: do you think Flo watched DMC for the next 3 years on SULLIVAN?

[Roberta75]

Tony Turners fiction books were hilarious. There was not ONE photo of him and Flo yet she was his confidant and BFF. Wonder where Miss Tony is now. LMAO.

[Roberta75]

Mary lived in the world of victimhood. She was the perennial victim. It was usually at the hands of Diana. I never bought into it, and that is why I never liked or respected her.

But, it sure made her a lot of money and gathered her much needed attention and sympathy.

Those are the thoughts you keep to yourself. Show some respect and let the lady RIP.

[RanRan79]

Much like Tony Turner was going to take Flo to the "Farewell" concert? Lol.

This does bring up a good question though: do you think Flo watched DMC for the next 3 years on SULLIVAN?

Every mention of Tall Tales makes my stomach churn. What a creep. But in defense of Randall, the difference between him and Tall Tales is that I don't get the feeling that Randall made anything up. Who knows where he got the information from, and while I doubt the story, the truth is that it might actually be true, I just don't know. I think Randall collected information for his thesis. Tall Tales sat down one day and decided to make up a book in order to pay his rent. Major difference in integrity and character.

As for Flo and DMC on TV, my guess is that she avoided it like she probably avoided DRATS' music. She may have watched their performance of "Reflections", was it on Hollywood Palace? Whatever show where it was Cindy's television debut, I can imagine Flo turning that on out of curiosity about what her group looked like without her, and how well, or how bad, her replacement looked.

And halfway through the performance Flo tossed the TV out the window.:p