Florence Ballard and her home on Buena Vista

[captainjames]

I have tried to rationalize this for a long time now and I always come away puzzled. When Flo left or kick out of the group she was given a mere sum of round $160,000.00 for her contribution to the group. The home purchased by Motown for her on Buena Vista could not have been more than around $50,000 at that time. So, was it the taxes on the home that cause her to lose it ? Surly she had enough to secure the home. I have revisited the stories and the articles and I always think she could have bought the house and the one next to her. It just always strike me odd to what happen here and what else was going on. Also, there is the story of Diana sending a check to Florence only that was attempted to be interceptive by Tommy. 19080

[milven]

Flo didn't have many good advisors around her, including her husband, who was only around if there was money to be had. As for the Motown settlement, it went directly to her lawyer. The story is complicated, but I don't think she ever saw any of the money.

She never should have signed away her royalties. She was no longer a pre-teen and had been with Motown seven years. By that time she should have learned something about how evil the music business can be and should not have signed anything on the spot before having it reviewed and negotiated by a good lawyer.

[nomis]

heartbreaking. Flo's comment to a reporter - "Couldnt i Be left with at least my home ?"19081

[RanRan79]

I could be wrong, but it's my understanding that the house had a mortgage on it. Chances are Motown didn't give any of the girls the 30 grand or so to purchase the house outright. Maybe they did, but I doubt it. If the houses were purchased outright, it could also be that at some point when the money troubles started, Flo took out a mortgage on the house. Either way, at some point the note came due and Flo didn't have the money.

[reese]

In CALL HER MISS ROSS, it is said that the homes cost $30,000 per. Berry wanted the girls to pay cash for the homes. But his advisers said that they should try to obtain as large a mortgage as possible since the girls probably wouldn't want to stay in the homes too long.

[RanRan79]

She never should have signed away her royalties. She was no longer a pre-teen and had been with Motown seven years. By that time she should have learned something about how evil the music business can be and should not have signed anything on the spot before having it reviewed and negotiated by a good lawyer.

Flo had a lawyer. She took the advice of her lawyer. Perhaps a Flo ten years older may have known enough to figure out that royalties was an important part of the game, but at 24 all she knew was her experience at Motown. Motown did everything for the Supremes. It's not like she, nor the other Supremes, ever saw royalty statements or had to deal with bank issues. Motown took care of all that. All the Supremes had to do was their job and shop. The Supremes were sheltered. Plus there may have been an attitude of thinking that she could make more money in the future using her talent rather than getting royalties [[divided 3 ways, mind you) for past work. I've read that a lot of artists in those days did not realize the importance that royalties would play, especially as the decades wore on and "oldies" became a lucrative venture, not to mention using songs in ads, movies, TV, etc.

But if you think Flo should have learned something, how crazy is it the issues Diana had pushing 40 and still having Motown involved in her purchases, or the fact that she didn't know how much money she had in the bank. Mary learned these things a bit sooner than Diana because Motown stopped sheltering Mary. When Diana decided she no longer wanted to be sheltered, she got her mind blown. Had Flo been able to see into the future and that at some point Mary and Diana were getting nearly 100,000 dollar royalty checks for 20+ year old work, sure, she may have told everybody to kiss her ass because she wasn't signing away anything. But in 1967/68, she may not have had any indication that royalties was where it's at. She wanted to be done with Motown and if the lawyer said this is the best, quickest way, she probably had no reason to doubt him.

[nomis]

In the Peter benjamison tapes flo talks about berry telling her Motown had invested her money in stock bonds that she never received on leaving the label in 1967..her lawyer Leonard baun also embezzled her funds as well...it was all a dirty mess...

[captainjames]

The whole house thing to me is so mind blowing and even at an early age and dealing with Motown [[if they were paying the mortgage) I would of had my settlement state that Motown pay the mortgage. I know that she requested her gowns and was denied so my home would have been on my list unless she thought it was paid for already.

[nomis]

The whole house thing to me is so mind blowing and even at an early age and dealing with Motown [[if they were paying the mortgage) I would of had my settlement state that Motown pay the mortgage. I know that she requested her gowns and was denied so my home would have been on my list unless she thought it was paid for already.
That's part of the ethos of how Motown was run..the artists were told one thing only to find out the hard truth later on..it wouldn't surprise me in the least if berry had perpuated the details over the owning of her home..

[JLoveLamar]

How do you all know this? I've watched darn near every Diana interview YouTube has. She doesn't ever mention any of this. I don't remember her mentioning Miss Florence's house in her book. I only remember her saying when she left Motown she was broke, or maybe she said she was close to I on an interview? Didn't she say she had to take out a loan or something of that nature? I'm going to re-read her book this year. I have not read it in over a decade, so I cannot remember everything.

[Ollie9]

The house seemed to symbolise everything Flo had worked for. I think a part of her died the day she lost it. It’s a tragedy that Diana wasn’t able to deal directly with her in offering financial help.
It has been documented that upon Flo’s departure from Motown there were numerous lavish parties held at the house. Personally for me securing my house would have been my priority.
Without knowing all the facts though it’s hard to ascertain what exactly did go down.

[PeaceNHarmony]

How do you all know this? I've watched darn near every Diana interview YouTube has. She doesn't ever mention any of this. I don't remember her mentioning Miss Florence's house in her book. I only remember her saying when she left Motown she was broke, or maybe she said she was close to I on an interview? Didn't she say she had to take out a loan or something of that nature? I'm going to re-read her book this year. I have not read it in over a decade, so I cannot remember everything.Diana isn't one to dish the dirt with the rest of the girls so there won't be much, if any, information to be found in Diana's book or interviews. And it certainly would not have been Diana's chore to teach Florence [[or anyone else) fiscal responsibility. But the story of Florence's home has been dragged up for decades [[and indeed resurfaces here every few months) so there's no shortage of internet hagiography to be found. It looks like a beautiful home and I like to think Florence had some good times there.

[captainjames]

I can't recall Diana mentioning it in her book and I am almost certain she did not. However, I have heard and read many times that she attempted to do so. Florence and Diana were on speaking terms before she died right around the time Mahogany was released .

However Randy Taraborrelli was quoted in 1989 in the Chicago Tribune as saying;

''People think Diana Ross is responsible for Florence Ballard`s death. I don`t,'' says Taraborrelli, who says Ross did, belatedly and futilely, attempt to pay off Ballard`s mortgage before she lost her house. ''I think all three Supremes had equal opportunities to use their imaginations to make this thing work, and Diana shouldn`t be blamed because one of them couldn`t figure it out,'' he says.

I am thinking he may have mentioned it in his book as well but I would have to dig it out to confirm. Also, he is on this site so he could respond himself.

[marybrewster]

Isn't it interesting how Flo was given $160,000.00 in 1967, yet Diana was only given $100,000.00 fifteen years later?

[marybrewster]

I have tried to rationalize this for a long time now and I always come away puzzled. When Flo left or kick out of the group she was given a mere sum of round $160,000.00 for her contribution to the group. The home purchased by Motown for her on Buena Vista could not have been more than around $50,000 at that time. So, was it the taxes on the home that cause her to lose it ? Surly she had enough to secure the home. I have revisited the stories and the articles and I always think she could have bought the house and the one next to her. It just always strike me odd to what happen here and what else was going on. Also, there is the story of Diana sending a check to Florence only that was attempted to be interceptive by Tommy. 19080

Flo's old house looks beautiful today; glad to see it was returned to it's former glory. Much different from the magazine cover.

My question? Did Flo and her family tear that house up? It's one thing to lose the house, but based on the pic from Jet, it looks like all the windows are boarded up and the awning is in shreds.

[PeaceNHarmony]

I can't recall Diana mentioning it in her book and I am almost certain she did not. However, I have heard and read many times that she attempted to do so. Florence and Diana were on speaking terms before she died right around the time Mahogany was released .

However Randy Taraborrelli was quoted in 1989 in the Chicago Tribune as saying;

''People think Diana Ross is responsible for Florence Ballard`s death. I don`t,'' says Taraborrelli, who says Ross did, belatedly and futilely, attempt to pay off Ballard`s mortgage before she lost her house. ''I think all three Supremes had equal opportunities to use their imaginations to make this thing work, and Diana shouldn`t be blamed because one of them couldn`t figure it out,'' he says.

I am thinking he may have mentioned it in his book as well but I would have to dig it out to confirm. Also, he is on this site so he could respond himself.Interesting, Captain. I don't recall Taraborelli's '89 statement; good for him. It's always seemed to me that the endless dredging up of the more tragic events in Florence's life are done with the aim of assigning blame on Diana, which is quite ... sick, really. And it always seems to be overlooked that the 'mere' $160,000 given to Florence is equal to over a million in today's money. I've said it before, and will most likely say it again: many people in 1967 lost their jobs, did not get a $160,000 [[ie: $1,000,000) payout and managed to make their lives work out. Which does not diminish the sadness of Florence's early passing, but also should not diminish the success of anyone else.

[danman869]

Flo's old house looks beautiful today; glad to see it was returned to it's former glory. Much different from the magazine cover.

My question? Did Flo and her family tear that house up? It's one thing to lose the house, but based on the pic from Jet, it looks like all the windows are boarded up and the awning is in shreds.

While I don't know for certain how Florence and her family treated the house on Buena Vista so that by 1975 it looked like it did on the cover of Jet magazine, I can confidently say that awning material does eventually break down what with being exposed to nature all the time. [Presuming that the awning never was drawn back or taken down during wintertime.] Sun, wind, rain, heat, and cold... if you didn't have the funds to repair or replace it, it was going to start to fall apart. I would also figure that in the 1960s, there weren't chemical treatments to make awning materials more resistant to exposure as there would be today. I'd say that the awning looked as bad as it did on the cover of Jet because Flo hadn't had the funds to maintain/replace it before the time she lost the house.

As for the boarded up windows, I would figure the bank [or whoever held the mortgage] would've boarded up the windows to protect their investment and prevent squatters and other undesired folks from entering the house...and, sadly, that likely included trying to prevent Flo [the mortgagee] from trying to get back into the house, too.

For me, I think Florence clearly loved that house and what it represented [her success and independence] and I have to doubt that while she had the means to maintain it that she wouldn't have done so. I think the appearance of the exterior by 1975 was mainly about a lack of money and the bank "protecting" the foreclosed property.

Oh--and I just did a quick search of good ol' 3767 Buena Vista on Google Maps and found this photo taken in June 2019 [with what looks like the same Jeep Grand Cherokee pictured above farther back in the driveway from the front of the house--same homeowner[s]?]. Take a look at the awning. It appears there's a hole in the one above the living room windows and the one over the upstairs balcony is severely torn. An awning looks great...until it just doesn't. Part of the fun of homeownership is maintaining that kind of stuff and it takes money. Sadly, by '75, Flo didn't have much to spare.
19082

[RanRan79]

At the time of the photo, Florence hadn't lived in that house for about a year and a half, two years top. With no one living there, and the bank not as invested in the upkeep of the awning as much as they were in boarding up the windows to prevent the obvious, it should come as no surprise that the awning was in such bad shape. The one at the top faired better for whatever reason.

Did we really think Flo tore her house up? What did she do, decide one day that since she no longer was a Supreme and wasn't otherwise employed that she might as well get her kicks however she could, and decided to jump out of the upstairs window and onto the lower awning, only to discover it wouldn't hold her and she fell through it?:cool:

[RanRan79]

Isn't it interesting how Flo was given $160,000.00 in 1967, yet Diana was only given $100,000.00 fifteen years later?

I don't know about this. Flo's amount is correct, if memory serves, but I'm under the impression that Diana found out that she only had 100 grand to her name. When Diana left Motown I'm not sure there was anything for her to get from the company. Her contract had lapsed and both parties decided to go their separate ways. Whatever was owed her was fulfilled by Motown during her contracted period. Likewise I don't recall Mary ever getting anything from Motown either. I suspect that she was contracted for one album with a possible extension but after the one album the contract was fulfilled and Motown gave her the boot. Flo's situation was a bit different because the contract had to be broken, and in order to do that, a settlement had to be reached.

You legal minds correct me if I'm wrong.

[RanRan79]

I can't recall Diana mentioning it in her book and I am almost certain she did not. However, I have heard and read many times that she attempted to do so. Florence and Diana were on speaking terms before she died right around the time Mahogany was released .

However Randy Taraborrelli was quoted in 1989 in the Chicago Tribune as saying;

''People think Diana Ross is responsible for Florence Ballard`s death. I don`t,'' says Taraborrelli, who says Ross did, belatedly and futilely, attempt to pay off Ballard`s mortgage before she lost her house. ''I think all three Supremes had equal opportunities to use their imaginations to make this thing work, and Diana shouldn`t be blamed because one of them couldn`t figure it out,'' he says.

I am thinking he may have mentioned it in his book as well but I would have to dig it out to confirm. Also, he is on this site so he could respond himself.

That's a great quote, even if it doesn't address the nuance of the issue. Flo's heart issue may have happened whether she was still successful or not. No one is to blame for that. I think it's an extreme view to suggest Diana Ross played a part in Flo's death. Flo's exit from the group is another matter entirely.

[RanRan79]

It has been documented that upon Flo’s departure from Motown there were numerous lavish parties held at the house. Personally for me securing my house would have been my priority.


Has that been documented? I don't recall ever reading that one Ollie.

[Boogiedown]

heartbreaking. Flo's comment to a reporter - "Couldnt i Be left with at least my home ?"19081

WOW very bad publicity for Motown, a cover like that ! You mean to tell me Berry didn't think "good god , I've to get Flo back in her home. It's the least I can do for this $upreme ....even if only for appearance sakes [to show I actually give a dam about my people].

I'm guessing the reaction was total silence? I wonder if he pulled ads out of Jet or forbid interviews.... Very brave of the magazine.

[nathanj06]

Very sad subject however as it was, Florence was given very bad advice and clearly ripped off by her attorney. I also thought that Berry might have stepped in once this Jet issue was made public. Her home should have been paid for. Where was Florence actually living at the time she fell ill and passed away? Like many of you it's been quite a while since I've read the books.

[reese]

Very sad subject however as it was, Florence was given very bad advice and clearly ripped off by her attorney. I also thought that Berry might have stepped in once this Jet issue was made public. Her home should have been paid for. Where was Florence actually living at the time she fell ill and passed away? Like many of you it's been quite a while since I've read the books.

She had received a settlement from the lawyer that swindled her and bought a new home.

[floyjoy678]

Inside Edition did a story in the late 80s/early 90s on Flo's daughters losing the second house Flo bought and I remember them showing the inside and it didn't look like they kept up with it very well.

I agree its ridiculous for fans to blame Diana for Flo's death. Her being canned from the group? Sure some partial blame but I agree its sick to blame her for her death and I feel bad for how Diana was treated at her old friend's funeral. Diana says in her book she didn't want to go to the cemetery because she wanted to grieve alone and I don't blame her.

[sup_fan]

there's really very little inside information about what was going on with Flo during this time and who was/wasn't helping her. There have been stories published that Diana attempted to help save her house but things couldn't be worked out.

And people ask why Berry didn't? don't know. maybe he did and we don't know about it.

people should also ask "why didn't Mary help" She certainly had the most contact with Flo during the years post-Supremes. Also around this time, Mary bought and moved into a mansion in Hancock Park so she had some funds - at least enough to have made a payment or two to a bank and have kept Flo's loan current and out of default

Not blaming Mary here. Nor Berry. there comes a certain point where you have to let people live their own lives. Flo certainly held part of the blame for her problems within the group and with her exit. It wasn't solely that Berry or Diana were the evil ones. And so given that troubled history, does someone have a responsibility later to financially help someone out? especially when there had been 0 contact in many years? and flo had never reached out for help either.

[detmotownguy]

I can't recall Diana mentioning it in her book and I am almost certain she did not. However, I have heard and read many times that she attempted to do so. Florence and Diana were on speaking terms before she died right around the time Mahogany was released .

However Randy Taraborrelli was quoted in 1989 in the Chicago Tribune as saying;

''People think Diana Ross is responsible for Florence Ballard`s death. I don`t,'' says Taraborrelli, who says Ross did, belatedly and futilely, attempt to pay off Ballard`s mortgage before she lost her house. ''I think all three Supremes had equal opportunities to use their imaginations to make this thing work, and Diana shouldn`t be blamed because one of them couldn`t figure it out,'' he says.

I am thinking he may have mentioned it in his book as well but I would have to dig it out to confirm. Also, he is on this site so he could respond himself.

I assume the house would have been in Flo's name since she bought it when she was single? Did Diana write the check in Flo's name? Was Tommy's name on the house? If so she should have told Tommy to take a long walk off a short pier. Also, if Diana was supposedly down to "$100,000", why would she send money to pay the house off. If Motown still controlling her money at the time she offered to pay off the house? It just seems odd that the check was returned or never cashed. Just a crappy situation all around. I former co-worker back in Detroit rehearsed with Flo in her basement said Flo was def working on a comeback.

[Ollie9]

Has that been documented? I don't recall ever reading that one Ollie.

I think there is a quote by one of the Temptations in the Supremes book by Mark Ribowsky. It definitely wasn’t Secrets Of A Sparrow.

[woodward]

One additional thing to consider about the entire financial situation. What role did the DHHS have in this property? Flo was on public assistance benefits when she was at this house and many states [although today they have retreated from doing this] filed a
lien again the property for the amount of cash assistance a person got. Whether or not
they ever recovered anything from this lien will never be learned. My educated guess would be that they have not recovered a cent. It's easier said than done.

[Boogiedown]

a picture is worth a thousand words and this one speaks volumes about the collective so called family at Motown , that their reaction to this exposed situation was apparently a collective "oh, well".

Nobody presents themselves photographed this way [especially someone reveled as a glamorous world famous star] to the public revealing such a desperate personal situation, unless they really are in exactly that , a desperate situation.

[RanRan79]

Inside Edition did a story in the late 80s/early 90s on Flo's daughters losing the second house Flo bought and I remember them showing the inside and it didn't look like they kept up with it very well.

I agree its ridiculous for fans to blame Diana for Flo's death. Her being canned from the group? Sure some partial blame but I agree its sick to blame her for her death and I feel bad for how Diana was treated at her old friend's funeral. Diana says in her book she didn't want to go to the cemetery because she wanted to grieve alone and I don't blame her.

I don't think that was the same house Floy.

[RanRan79]

And so given that troubled history, does someone have a responsibility later to financially help someone out? especially when there had been 0 contact in many years? and flo had never reached out for help either.

In Berry's case, yes, he had a responsibility. His wealth was directly tied to the talent he had at Motown. The argument can be made that without Berry, there is no Supremes. I'll allow that argument, but counter it with the Supremes could have possibly gone to any number of record companies in the country and gotten signed. Would any of those labels have had the kind of goals for the group that Gordy eventually had? Maybe, maybe not. It's all debatable. What I find less debatable is the argument that Gordy could have found any other three singers and accomplished what the Supremes accomplished. Those ladies were unique in so many ways. So in my mind he needed them- and every other singer at Motown- more than they necessarily needed him. With that thinking, every time he checked his account balance he should have said a silent [[or aloud) thank you to God for sending him the Motown stable, especially the Supremes. For him to see any one of them in such a bad financial position and not help is...slimy.

He had no legal obligation to help. I realize that in this world of "self above all else" that morality is often an afterthought, if it's a thought at all, but IMO he had a moral obligation to do something. I would've felt like shit in his shoes if I didn't try to help. Now with that being said, because Gordy has never talked in depth about Flo beyond the surface issue of her "dismissal" from the group, he may very well have done something or tried to do something. We don't know. And maybe it's not our business to know. I do know that in Nicole's IG live interview she said Berry was one of the people who helped Flo's girls when growing up. I imagine that even if he didn't help Flo while she was alive that she would much rather he have helped her girls when she was no longer here. So our judgements of him should be kept to a minimum, if we must judge at all.

[RanRan79]

I assume the house would have been in Flo's name since she bought it when she was single? Did Diana write the check in Flo's name? Was Tommy's name on the house? If so she should have told Tommy to take a long walk off a short pier. Also, if Diana was supposedly down to "$100,000", why would she send money to pay the house off. If Motown still controlling her money at the time she offered to pay off the house? It just seems odd that the check was returned or never cashed. Just a crappy situation all around. I former co-worker back in Detroit rehearsed with Flo in her basement said Flo was def working on a comeback.

I don't know how true the story is, but JRT does say that a copy of the check exists in Motown's files. If that's true, then it didn't matter how much money Diana had in her account if she directed Motown to cut the check.

[RanRan79]

I think there is a quote by one of the Temptations in the Supremes book by Mark Ribowsky. It definitely wasn’t Secrets Of A Sparrow.

Nothing was in Secrets Of A Sparrow.:p

[RanRan79]

One additional thing to consider about the entire financial situation. What role did the DHHS have in this property? Flo was on public assistance benefits when she was at this house and many states [although today they have retreated from doing this] filed a
lien again the property for the amount of cash assistance a person got. Whether or not
they ever recovered anything from this lien will never be learned. My educated guess would be that they have not recovered a cent. It's easier said than done.

Florence wasn't in the house when she went on assistance. I believe she was living with Maxine at that point.

[captainjames]

Florence ended living on Shaftsbury Ave in Detroit Michigan. The only reason I know this is because my cousin still lives on the same street. I don't want to say anything about Tommy out of respect to Flo' daughters who may be on this site a well. However, I think [[but I my have my time period mixed up) the reason Mary couldn't help was because she had already borrowed money from Diana herself. Diana did attempt to help but the check was returned. Flo never knew Diana tried to help her.

[floyjoy678]

Yeah I was going to say I don't think Mary was really in the financial position herself to be lending money to Flo.

I never really understood why Diana just didn't reach out to Flo directly. What's the worst that would have happened? Flo hangs up on her? From accounts I've read Diana and Flo continued to see each other off and on after Diana left the Supremes.

[RanRan79]

Florence ended living on Shaftsbury Ave in Detroit Michigan. The only reason I know this is because my cousin still lives on the same street. I don't want to say anything about Tommy out of respect to Flo' daughters who may be on this site a well. However, I think [[but I my have my time period mixed up) the reason Mary couldn't help was because she had already borrowed money from Diana herself. Diana did attempt to help but the check was returned. Flo never knew Diana tried to help her.

Mary didn't borrow money from Diana until the early 80s, after she left Pedro and needed a down payment on a new home. By all accounts she wasn't in the best financial situation. She certainly didn't have access to the kind of money Gordy and Diana had. Or money Diana thought she had.

[RanRan79]

Yeah I was going to say I don't think Mary was really in the financial position herself to be lending money to Flo.

I never really understood why Diana just didn't reach out to Flo directly. What's the worst that would have happened? Flo hangs up on her? From accounts I've read Diana and Flo continued to see each other off and on after Diana left the Supremes.

It's been said by some that Flo was a proud woman. I imagine she wasn't usually in the habit of broadcasting her troubles. So it begs the question if it's even true that anyone knew she was about to lose the house? Maxine did say that Diana tried to speak to Flo by phone but Flo wouldn't take the calls. If that's true, Flo's paranoia may have been at play. Of course at the point that Maxine says this, I believe Flo had already lost the house and was living with Maxine, so it could be that Diana was calling to offer support or an encouraging word after the news circulated among those who knew Flo that she had lost her home. Flo spoke about her psyche during this time to Benjaminson. She was not always in a good mental state.

[JLoveLamar]

How is it that when Diana left Motown she only had $100,000? She had the Diana album that was her highest selling album, the Boss, three films, etc. How could she have only had $100,000 dollars? Now, Miss Mary Wilson stated that they all made 3 pennies per album, and they wrote none of their songs, so of course they did not have huge royalty checks coming in, but Diana Ross having only $100,000? Berry would not have done Diana like that, would he?

Also, there's a video I posted that was right after Diana did the Out of Darkness film and she was with Berry Gordy at the Soul Train awards and Berry said he believed in Diana and she said. "Until......!" What happened between them? How could Berry let her leave with only $100,000??

[captainjames]

Well the only thing I can speculate is sometimes people think they can break you if they feel they made you. Diana was not going to lose. I don't think Berry ever believed that Diana would leave him/Motown. There was a record that Motown released at the same time her release with RCA came out through hurt feelings I think and an attempt at making Ross feel like she made a mistake but Gordy quickly pulled the record. The best I can understand what happen was Diana grew up and wanted a little freedom to think and make her own decisions. This may have started around the time of Mahogany. Now understand this for a moment when she asked him for the $$ to match RCA, he said no. So she left. When she left Motown not only gave her a couple hundred thousand for her work with the company but they reposed her car, and other material things that she thought she owned. However, she was able to keep her home in Detroit which I think by this time she had put in another family member's name and her home in LA she kept.
So if Diana was dealt with the same way as Mary and Flo, I see Gordy as a politician that if he does something to help you, he feel he owns you.
and not to get off topic but whatever happen to Motown the Musical ? Diana did one visit I think because she felt that was her duty but she never went back but I think Mary followed it for while.

[detmotownguy]

Well the only thing I can speculate is sometimes people think they can break you if they feel they made you. Diana was not going to lose. I don't think Berry ever believed that Diana would leave him/Motown. There was a record that Motown released at the same time her release with RCA came out through hurt feelings I think and an attempt at making Ross feel like she made a mistake but Gordy quickly pulled the record. The best I can understand what happen was Diana grew up and wanted a little freedom to think and make her own decisions. This may have started around the time of Mahogany. Now understand this for a moment when she asked him for the $$ to match RCA, he said no. So she left. When she left Motown not only gave her a couple hundred thousand for her work with the company but they reposed her car, and other material things that she thought she owned. However, she was able to keep her home in Detroit which I think by this time she had put in another family member's name and her home in LA she kept.
So if Diana was dealt with the same way as Mary and Flo, I see Gordy as a politician that if he does something to help you, he feel he owns you.
and not to get off topic but whatever happen to Motown the Musical ? Diana did one visit I think because she felt that was her duty but she never went back but I think Mary followed it for while.
Not super exciting but....I was a co op for a Detroit utility in the early 80's and the house was still in her name. Yes, the bills were always paid on time!! Not sure who was actually living there.

[khansperac]

and not to get off topic but whatever happen to Motown the Musical ? Diana did one visit I think because she felt that was her duty but she never went back but I think Mary followed it for while.

Diana went to see the musical at least twice in NYC.

[Bluebrock]

Diana went to see the musical at least twice in NYC.

I believe you are correct. She attended with some family members on a couple of occasions.

[RanRan79]

Well the only thing I can speculate is sometimes people think they can break you if they feel they made you. Diana was not going to lose. I don't think Berry ever believed that Diana would leave him/Motown. There was a record that Motown released at the same time her release with RCA came out through hurt feelings I think and an attempt at making Ross feel like she made a mistake but Gordy quickly pulled the record. The best I can understand what happen was Diana grew up and wanted a little freedom to think and make her own decisions. This may have started around the time of Mahogany. Now understand this for a moment when she asked him for the $$ to match RCA, he said no. So she left. When she left Motown not only gave her a couple hundred thousand for her work with the company but they reposed her car, and other material things that she thought she owned. However, she was able to keep her home in Detroit which I think by this time she had put in another family member's name and her home in LA she kept.
So if Diana was dealt with the same way as Mary and Flo, I see Gordy as a politician that if he does something to help you, he feel he owns you.
and not to get off topic but whatever happen to Motown the Musical ? Diana did one visit I think because she felt that was her duty but she never went back but I think Mary followed it for while.

Diana grew up, simply put. She wanted more freedom, more say so over her career and existence. It's said when she started exercising some of this that Gordy and company weren't in her corner very much. Seems he could be quite spiteful. Leaving Motown offered her the same kind of feeling that leaving home for the first time offers a young adult. I don't know what kind of finances Berry was working with at the time, whether or not he had access to money to match RCA's offer, but whether he did or didn't, I do believe that if he had offered Diana more creative control, taken his hands [[and that of Motown) out of her finances, she may have decided to stay for less money.

[marybrewster]

I'll agree; after the superstardom, it is a shame that Flo lost her house. Maybe Diana or Berry should have helped her with the mortgage. But then what? Was Flo going to get a job to pay the utilities? Flo's story sadly happens to millions. You buy a house; your financial situation changes or the market crashes, and you lose it.

What's more interesting to me is HOW MANY Motown stars were on hard times after leaving the label. Is Flo losing her house much different than having a fundraiser for Mary Wells to pay her medical Bill's? Or a fan having to pay James Jamerson's ticket into Motown 25? Or Sandra Tilley laying in an unmarked grave? And the list goes on?

[captainjames]

Not super exciting but....I was a co op for a Detroit utility in the early 80's and the house was still in her name. Yes, the bills were always paid on time!! Not sure who was actually living there.

I think Rita lives and owns the home now or she did in 2019.

[nomis]

if you accept that Flo's percentage of royalties from singles and albums,live shows and tv work equalled $160,000.00 on leaving.. this figure no way could include sales from overseas revenue..The Supremes sold big in many overseas territories - surely she was entitled to non domestic royalties as well..i find it very hard to believe her lump sum settlement included this..
When she also signed away the rights to royalties from her contribution to the catalog what was the deal for all unreleased tracks which the ladies were charged for studio costs ? surely the Ballard estate would receive royalties for all the songs released since the 25th Anniversary set ? or did the contract include non payment for these masters as well ?...its a very tangled web

[reese]

When she also signed away the rights to royalties from her contribution to the catalog what was the deal for all unreleased tracks which the ladies were charged for studio costs ? surely the Ballard estate would receive royalties for all the songs released since the 25th Anniversary set ? or did the contract include non payment for these masters as well ?...its a very tangled web

Flo signed away her royalties to everything. There was no distinction made between released and unreleased recordings.

Even though they don't have to, Universal could have a heart and reinstate royalties so that Flo's daughters could have that income.

[nomis]

How is it that when Diana left Motown she only had $100,000? She had the Diana album that was her highest selling album, the Boss, three films, etc. How could she have only had $100,000 dollars? Now, Miss Mary Wilson stated that they all made 3 pennies per album, and they wrote none of their songs, so of course they did not have huge royalty checks coming in, but Diana Ross having only $100,000? Berry would not have done Diana like that, would he?

Also, there's a video I posted that was right after Diana did the Out of Darkness film and she was with Berry Gordy at the Soul Train awards and Berry said he believed in Diana and she said. "Until......!" What happened between them? How could Berry let her leave with only $100,000??

Royalties take time to syphon thru to the recipient - as good as "The Boss" was it only sold marginally. The royalties for "diana" album and its singles she wouldnt have gotten at the time yet..
she had huge expenditures going out at the time- on one occasion alone in this time period she spent $70.000 on shoes ! Berry charged her for all costs incurred on the tour to promote "The Boss" as well which was costly she paid for the musicians,the set.special effects - everything [[which she was furious at Berry for.. maybe this is the "until" moment)

[PeaceNHarmony]

Holy bejezessess this topic is tired. Nay, exhausted. Dried up. Shriveled. Peeps been talking about Flo's finances for going on 6 decades. If only the lady's contributions to American popular culture could be remembered in place of her finances and housekeeping habits. But ... MAGA!! I guess ... Bonus points to anyone who can logically explain why nobody shivs a git about James Jamerson's finances but obsession over those of Florence Ballard continue.

[Ollie9]

Holy bejezessess this topic is tired. Nay, exhausted. Dried up. Shriveled. Peeps been talking about Flo's finances for going on 6 decades. If only the lady's contributions to American popular culture could be remembered in place of her finances and housekeeping habits. But ... MAGA!! I guess ... Bonus points to anyone who can logically explain why nobody shivs a git about James Jamerson's finances but obsession over those of Florence Ballard continue.

Erm......because this is a forum about Diana Ross & Supremes.
I personally have enjoyed reading the various posts on this thread, learning a few things i had not previously been unaware of.
Shock new.......It’s not all about ‘YOU’.

[RanRan79]

I'll agree; after the superstardom, it is a shame that Flo lost her house. Maybe Diana or Berry should have helped her with the mortgage. But then what? Was Flo going to get a job to pay the utilities? Flo's story sadly happens to millions. You buy a house; your financial situation changes or the market crashes, and you lose it.

What's more interesting to me is HOW MANY Motown stars were on hard times after leaving the label. Is Flo losing her house much different than having a fundraiser for Mary Wells to pay her medical Bill's? Or a fan having to pay James Jamerson's ticket into Motown 25? Or Sandra Tilley laying in an unmarked grave? And the list goes on?

I think the counter question has to be why do any of those things need to be compared? Florence losing her house after everything she had done for music, and specifically everything she had done for Motown, was a travesty. Mary Wells was diagnosed with cancer and unable to pay all of her medical bills. After everything she did for Motown, even if you only focus on "My Guy", she should never have needed anyone to step in and do a damn thing. But to their credit, Diana as well, Motown came through for the first queen of the label. James Jamerson not even being invited to Motown 25 after being a significant part of why the world fell in love with the phenomenon that was the Motown Sound, is criminal. While Sandra Tilley's contribution to Motown may not be comparable to that of the previous three people you spotlighted, I think for what she did, no, she should never have been in an unmarked grave. And if that's still the case, shame on anyone connected with Motown who knows that and has not done anything about it, including Martha Reeves.

What was it that Rev. Franklin said during Flo's eulogy? Something about in this life we sometimes have troubles, or something like that. We all do. Every single one of us. Some troubles are easier to overcome, while others knock us down. Flo got knocked down for awhile there. There was nothing anyone connected to Motown could've done for Flo's mental issues, but having one third of the most famous female singing group of the 1960s losing her home and bunking up with others for any period of time is just something that should've never happened. Never. There shouldn't be anything wrong with us pointing this out.

[RanRan79]

Erm......because this is a forum about Diana Ross & Supremes.
I personally have enjoyed reading the various posts on this thread, learning a few things i had not previously been unaware of.
Shock new.......It’s not all about ‘YOU’.

That Cryptkeeper muthafucka is always trolling. I swear I don't ever want to get that old and be that bored and unloved and unliked that I sit up on an internet forum trolling threads I apparently have no real interest in. Ollie if you're still around when I'm that old, and I resort to this nonsense, you have my permission to track me down and put me out of my misery. Please, put me out of my misery.

[danman869]

That Cryptkeeper muthafucka is always trolling. I swear I don't ever want to get that old and be that bored and unloved and unliked that I sit up on an internet forum trolling threads I apparently have no real interest in. Ollie if you're still around when I'm that old, and I resort to this nonsense, you have my permission to track me down and put me out of my misery. Please, put me out of my misery.

Thank you, thank you, thank you. I agreed with Ollie's post and I agree with yours! It's always negativity and dismissal coming from that poster and it gets really tiresome to have to slog past their posts. Where's that ignore button...?

[Boogiedown]

That Cryptkeeper muthafucka is always trolling. I swear I don't ever want to get that old and be that bored and unloved and unliked that I sit up on an internet forum trolling threads I apparently have no real interest in. Ollie if you're still around when I'm that old, and I resort to this nonsense, you have my permission to track me down and put me out of my misery. Please, put me out of my misery.


This is the worst type of participation amongst a public forum , name calling and attacking a poster personally going so far as calling them unloved....unbelievable . Hate to break it to you , but whatever age you thinks qualifies as 'troll' age , you're there.


If I were you , I'd take a breath, come to my senses and delete that post ...but that's just me.

[RanRan79]

Thank you, thank you, thank you. I agreed with Ollie's post and I agree with yours! It's always negativity and dismissal coming from that poster and it gets really tiresome to have to slog past their posts. Where's that ignore button...?

I know. My problem is that I long ago put this nut on ignore, but when people quote him, I find myself reading, both for context and because I'm a glutton for punishment. But this is getting ridiculous. Why would anyone want to control what people talk about in this great big ole forum? Don't like a topic, start a new one. I did three about the music yesterday because this one was getting a lot of traffic and it's always so easy for the forum to go left when sensitive subjects such as this come up. The ironic screenname wants people to stop talking about Flo's finances and instead focus on her contribution to music, but didn't make one comment in the other threads about Flo's music. So what's really going on?

Troll.

[Boogiedown]

Holy bejezessess this topic is tired. Nay, exhausted. Dried up. Shriveled. Peeps been talking about Flo's finances for going on 6 decades. If only the lady's contributions to American popular culture could be remembered in place of her finances and housekeeping habits. But ... MAGA!! I guess ... Bonus points to anyone who can logically explain why nobody shivs a git about James Jamerson's finances but obsession over those of Florence Ballard continue.


Classic Anti-MAGA I guess....think like I do, or shut up !!

As far as Jamerson , if someone produces a magazine cover showing him in front of his boarded up house begging for help , yes I bet there'd be a thread about it.

[danman869]

Classic Anti-MAGA I guess....think like I do, or shut up !!


I'm not sure what MAGA or Anti-MAGA has to do with a Motown or Supremes forum here. Politics weren't part of this conversation--and shouldn't be.

That said, I think the point being made was that the poster in question didn't come in and say, "I disagree about [point X] regarding Flo's home on Buena Vista..." or even so far as saying, "I'm not sure whether we should be taking this discussion in [direction Y] because..." Nothing was added to the conversation. Instead, this poster decided to basically belittle everyone participating in the conversation and act as though there haven't been hundreds [if not more] of threads here over the years about what Florence's contribution to popular music has been. How is that constructively participatory?

As RanRan basically said, if reading threads on the forum and one doesn't feel any specific one is worth their time to participate in it, don't. Another option is to create a new thread to talk about something they would like to discuss.

The poster themselves made a post here that was a perfect example of "think like I do, or shut up !!" and yet politics was brought into it and all the others were basically labeled as "Anti-MAGA" and espousing the opinion of "think like I do, or shut up !!" So, I guess that means "think like I do, or shut up !!" applies to the what the poster said as well.

Bottom line: if you don't think something should be discussed as you feel it's an overworked topic, then don't participate in the discussion.

[marybrewster]

There's nothing worse when someone in a forum tries to tell the other members what is and what isn't relevant. Most topics, especially Supremes related, have gone under a microscope for the past 20 years [[or however long there has been internet).

If that's the case, EVERY topic is tired. Yet, we'll still be discussing Motown 25, RTL, and how many beads were missing from Jean's dress on the "Right On" cover for the next 20 years.

[PeaceNHarmony]

I'm not sure what MAGA or Anti-MAGA has to do with a Motown or Supremes forum here. Politics weren't part of this conversation--and shouldn't be.

That said, I think the point being made was that the poster in question didn't come in and say, "I disagree about [point X] regarding Flo's home on Buena Vista..." or even so far as saying, "I'm not sure whether we should be taking this discussion in [direction Y] because..." Nothing was added to the conversation. Instead, this poster decided to basically belittle everyone participating in the conversation and act as though there haven't been hundreds [if not more] of threads here over the years about what Florence's contribution to popular music has been. How is that constructively participatory?

As RanRan basically said, if reading threads on the forum and one doesn't feel any specific one is worth their time to participate in it, don't. Another option is to create a new thread to talk about something they would like to discuss.

The poster themselves made a post here that was a perfect example of "think like I do, or shut up !!" and yet politics was brought into it and all the others were basically labeled as "Anti-MAGA" and espousing the opinion of "think like I do, or shut up !!" So, I guess that means "think like I do, or shut up !!" applies to the what the poster said as well.

Bottom line: if you don't think something should be discussed as you feel it's an overworked topic, then don't participate in the discussion.Hi Dan Man, and as you seem to be commenting on my posts I wish to reply accordingly. Firstly, in a classic forum anyone is free to comment on a topic regardless of whether they think the topic is worthy of discussion or not. Next, the reason I have chosen to post on the topic is simply to try to circumvent at least some of the negative myth around Florence's life that some of us are so persistent in maintaining. Much as the MAGA voters here in the US have chosen to continue a Big Lie about the 2020 election results there is a cadre of ghouls who seem determined to continue a myth about Tragic Florence. In our internet age, anything posted on the internet is pretty much taken for fact, and is additionally preserved pretty much forever. So there are younger viewers of forums such as this who latch onto the hagiography of Tragic Florence and ignore the lady's inestimable contribution to American popular culture, as well as her apparent effectiveness as a mother as evident in the successful and productive lives of her children. So, in closing, each of us has a choice. Remember the positive aspects of the life of Florence Ballard, or obsess over her housekeeping skills and financial mishaps. Best to you!

[RanRan79]

There's nothing worse when someone in a forum tries to tell the other members what is and what isn't relevant. Most topics, especially Supremes related, have gone under a microscope for the past 20 years [[or however long there has been internet).

If that's the case, EVERY topic is tired. Yet, we'll still be discussing Motown 25, RTL, and how many beads were missing from Jean's dress on the "Right On" cover for the next 20 years.

Some people just feel the need to control the thoughts of others. Either that, or the purpose of the post was to garner these responses because Trolls are gonna troll. I hope most of those who have participated in the thread thus far don't stop. One monkey shouldn't stop the show.

[Spreadinglove21]

What year did Flo lose the house and have to move out? I ask because vandalism as well as fires began to amp up in Detroit in the early 70s on Devil's Night, the night before Halloween. Maybe the house was boarded up and the awning ripped because it was the target of vandalism due to being empty?

[captainjames]

what year did flo lose the house and have to move out? I ask because vandalism as well as fires began to amp up in detroit in the early 70s on devil's night, the night before halloween. Maybe the house was boarded up and the awning ripped because it was the target of vandalism due to being empty?

i would say it ws 1974 - 1975

[Ollie9]

Some people just feel the need to control the thoughts of others. Either that, or the purpose of the post was to garner these responses because Trolls are gonna troll. I hope most of those who have participated in the thread thus far don't stop. One monkey shouldn't stop the show.

I agree, this happens frequently with this particular member. So often I have been enjoying a thread only for it to be derailed by thinly disguised, sneering comments or other members being labelled haters. It’s all to do with control.
We don’t always agree with one another, but this brand of sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.

[captainjames]

Flo definitely tried a couple of times to get back on her feet but she kept getting pulled back down by her own demons sometimes. There was a lady on Buena Vista by this time that was living in Mary Wilson's home who tried to help as well. I think her name was Maye. She did a few appearances and a few shows but it was hard to get back where she was.

[Boogiedown]

I'm not sure what MAGA or Anti-MAGA has to do with a Motown or Supremes forum here. Politics weren't part of this conversation--and shouldn't be.

That said, I think the point being made was that the poster in question didn't come in and say, "I disagree about [point X] regarding Flo's home on Buena Vista..." or even so far as saying, "I'm not sure whether we should be taking this discussion in [direction Y] because..." Nothing was added to the conversation. Instead, this poster decided to basically belittle everyone participating in the conversation and act as though there haven't been hundreds [if not more] of threads here over the years about what Florence's contribution to popular music has been. How is that constructively participatory?

As RanRan basically said, if reading threads on the forum and one doesn't feel any specific one is worth their time to participate in it, don't. Another option is to create a new thread to talk about something they would like to discuss.

The poster themselves made a post here that was a perfect example of "think like I do, or shut up !!" and yet politics was brought into it and all the others were basically labeled as "Anti-MAGA" and espousing the opinion of "think like I do, or shut up !!" So, I guess that means "think like I do, or shut up !!" applies to the what the poster said as well.

Bottom line: if you don't think something should be discussed as you feel it's an overworked topic, then don't participate in the discussion.


I agree sneaking in politics into topics that aren't about that just dilutes the actual topic at hand. To ignore it just perpetuates it however.

I'm having trouble following your post as you seem to be speaking about members instead of to them although you quoted specifically my post.

Danman , if I'm following, it looks as though I may have posted in a way that you are misreading my comment to mean that I am saying - think like I do or shut up. I need to clear that up , I would never say that, as I am a free-thinker and I get that way by encouraging various points of views to reflect upon, not by shutting them down.

Let me try to correct it,
Classic Anti-MAGA I guess: "think like I do, or shut up !!" --- : That's the way the 'tolerant' cancel/ignore crowd handles it. Peace didn't want to explore the topic any more , so therefore neither should you , iow, just shut up about it!

Otherwise danman , we agree, except the expressing of your view by cheering on RanRan's verbal abuse towards another member.

[danman869]

Flo definitely tried a couple of times to get back on her feet but she kept getting pulled back down by her own demons sometimes. There was a lady on Buena Vista by this time that was living in Mary Wilson's home who tried to help as well. I think her name was Maye. She did a few appearances and a few shows but it was hard to get back where she was.

You're thinking of Maye Atkins--Cholly's wife--and they lived in the other side of Mary's Detroit duplex [or maybe they lived in Mary's side as she mainly lived in Los Angeles at that point?] that was down the street from Florence's house.

[blackguy69]

Cholly and Maye lived in the other side of Mary’s duplex until they moved to Las Vegas sometime in 75. Mary’s mom moved in on Mary’s side when Mary moved to LA.
You're thinking of Maye Atkins--Cholly's wife--and they lived in the other side of Mary's Detroit duplex [or maybe they lived in Mary's side as she mainly lived in Los Angeles at that point?] that was down the street from Florence's house.

[captainjames]

You're thinking of Maye Atkins--Cholly's wife--and they lived in the other side of Mary's Detroit duplex [or maybe they lived in Mary's side as she mainly lived in Los Angeles at that point?] that was down the street from Florence's house.

Yes, thank you,,,, that is actually who I was thinking of. Maye was instrumental in getting the story in Jet for Flo. I mean this in the most sincere way , a lot of folks loved Flo but we needed Flo to help pull herself up too. Sometimes that is so hard when you are being kicked so many times.

I know it was tough but to be honest no one thought she would die. Everyone was just hoping she would rise up or snap out of it.

[nathanj06]

There's nothing worse when someone in a forum tries to tell the other members what is and what isn't relevant. Most topics, especially Supremes related, have gone under a microscope for the past 20 years [[or however long there has been internet).

If that's the case, EVERY topic is tired. Yet, we'll still be discussing Motown 25, RTL, and how many beads were missing from Jean's dress on the "Right On" cover for the next 20 years.

That's HYSTERICAL!!! Thanks for the laugh marybrewster!

[ballardfan67]

I know someone asked if there were was another mortgage taken out on her home and possibly could not pay it. In 1970 Flo transferred a property deed to Lois Ballard, which I know at the time was her sister in law. Possibly a loan or something

[Ollie9]

Holy bejezessess this topic is tired. Nay, exhausted. Dried up. Shriveled. Peeps been talking about Flo's finances for going on 6 decades. If only the lady's contributions to American popular culture could be remembered in place of her finances and housekeeping habits. But ... MAGA!! I guess ... Bonus points to anyone who can logically explain why nobody shivs a git about James Jamerson's finances but obsession over those of Florence Ballard continue.

Oh dear!! Another post for you to disapprove of.

[BayouMotownMan]

Does anyone know the actually addresses of Flo, Mary and Diana's homes on Buena Vista? I'd like to look them up on google maps

[carlo]

Diana's house is at 3762, Florence's house is at 3767 and Mary's house is at 4099 Buena Vista.

[nomis]

imagine being in the Supremes orbit at the time [[wether as a friend,co worker)that the three ladies owned a house on the same street..Ive heard Mary and Flo were both very social and had many get togethers and parties..[[Diana not so much)..it would have been a blast hanging with the group at a neighbourhood get together..with Cholly, A Temptation,Gordy sister or Four Top in attendance..the smart cadillacs all lined up on the drive ways..music food and laughter..

[Ollie9]

imagine being in the Supremes orbit at the time [[wether as a friend,co worker)that the three ladies owned a house on the same street..Ive heard Mary and Flo were both very social and had many get togethers and parties..[[Diana not so much)..it would have been a blast hanging with the group at a neighbourhood get together..with Cholly, A Temptation,Gordy sister or Four Top in attendance..the smart cadillacs all lined up on the drive ways..music food and laughter..

I’m not sure I could handle the conundrum of what to wear nomis. :eek:

[PeaceNHarmony]

Diana's house is at 3762, Florence's house is at 3767 and Mary's house is at 4099 Buena Vista.It's nice to see the houses looking good on current realtor listings -

[PeaceNHarmony]

imagine being in the Supremes orbit at the time [[wether as a friend,co worker)that the three ladies owned a house on the same street..Ive heard Mary and Flo were both very social and had many get togethers and parties..[[Diana not so much)..it would have been a blast hanging with the group at a neighbourhood get together..with Cholly, A Temptation,Gordy sister or Four Top in attendance..the smart cadillacs all lined up on the drive ways..music food and laughter..Correct. It's said that Florence had a mini nightclub set up in her basement. It's well-established that Diana was less into the party life and more focused on recording, with background vocals frequently provided by singers other than Mary and Florence. But, as George Solomon related in his notes to the Ultimate Merry Christmas set, that's always a contentious issue and I guess we'll never know for sure who sang on what for every song.

[carlo]

It's nice to see the houses looking good on current realtor listings -

One of the latest photos I saw of Flo's home...it may have been on Google Street view...there were some holes/tears in the green awnings. When I drove by it just under 10 years ago, it looked great and well maintained from the outside, along with Diana and Mary's former homes. Sadly, I can't say the same for some of the other homes on that street.

Funny enough, there was a 'fan' who posted a link to their own Go Fund Me online fundraising page in one of the Flo groups on Facebook a few days ago. This person claimed that they had recently bought her former home and stated that it is in dire need of major repairs and renovations due to ongoing leaks and water damage all throughout the home. They provided a few photos of the supposed damage. They were asking fans for a monetary handout, and in exchange, they claimed that the home could be restored to its former glory and potentially become a museum or fan gathering spot. The whole thing seemed very fishy and likely a scam. I called them out on it and the link was removed. So I do not know whether their claims regarding interior damage is true or not, but it does seem it was indeed recently sold to a new owner this past summer. If they did a YouTube video, touring the home, I would find their story more believable, but I still wouldn't donate. I basically said that Flo is no longer with us and neither she, nor her family, have had a connection to this house for decades...let her rest in peace. I'm so sick of all of these sketchy people coming out of the woodwork, making false claims and trying to garner their own money and fame off of Flo.

If I were to donate to anything in relation to her memory or legacy, it would be helping to secure her a better headstone marker. This was something I had looked into some years ago and the cemetery had presented some options, including an engraved cement tribute bench, but I ended up abandoning the idea. Just too many complications, the biggest one being the potential for vandalism. When I last visited, someone had cut a giant hole in one of the chain link fences.

[RanRan79]

imagine being in the Supremes orbit at the time [[wether as a friend,co worker)that the three ladies owned a house on the same street..Ive heard Mary and Flo were both very social and had many get togethers and parties..[[Diana not so much)..it would have been a blast hanging with the group at a neighbourhood get together..with Cholly, A Temptation,Gordy sister or Four Top in attendance..the smart cadillacs all lined up on the drive ways..music food and laughter..

That's something I wonder about. I have to imagine the neighborhood youngsters used to get a kick out of seeing the Supremes come and go, along with various other Motown stars. And not just Motown stars but other Detroit stars or famous people who befriended the Supremes and visited their homes. These are the kinds of recollections I love and wish were better documented.

[RanRan79]

One of the latest photos I saw of Flo's home...it may have been on Google Street view...there were some holes/tears in the green awnings. When I drove by it just under 10 years ago, it looked great and well maintained from the outside, along with Diana and Mary's former homes. Sadly, I can't say the same for some of the other homes on that street.

Funny enough, there was a 'fan' who posted a link to their own Go Fund Me online fundraising page in one of the Flo groups on Facebook a few days ago. This person claimed that they had recently bought her former home and stated that it is in dire need of major repairs and renovations due to ongoing leaks and water damage all throughout the home. They provided a few photos of the supposed damage. They were asking fans for a monetary handout, and in exchange, they claimed that the home could be restored to its former glory and potentially become a museum or fan gathering spot. The whole thing seemed very fishy and likely a scam. I called them out on it and the link was removed. So I do not know whether their claims regarding interior damage is true or not, but it does seem it was indeed recently sold to a new owner this past summer. If they did a YouTube video, touring the home, I would find their story more believable, but I still wouldn't donate. I basically said that Flo is no longer with us and neither she, nor her family, have had a connection to this house for decades...let her rest in peace. I'm so sick of all of these sketchy people coming out of the woodwork, making false claims and trying to garner their own money and fame off of Flo.

If I were to donate to anything in relation to her memory or legacy, it would be helping to secure her a better headstone marker. This was something I had looked into some years ago and the cemetery had presented some options, including an engraved cement tribute bench, but I ended up abandoning the idea. Just too many complications, the biggest one being the potential for vandalism. When I last visited, someone had cut a giant hole in one of the chain link fences.

The scammers are something else. But Carlo I wonder if it would be a good idea to turn not just Flo's old home into a museum, but also that of Diana and Mary. I'm not sure how much time has to pass by, but it would be interesting if the houses ended up on the historic register. Obviously the Supremes are represented at the Hitsville museum and other archives across the country, including, if I'm not mistaken, the African American museum in DC. But they deserve their own repository as far as I'm concerned, and what other location exists that is tied to the group [[other than Hitsville) than the homes they originally purchased? I wonder if Flo's daughters would get behind something like this. Mary probably certainly would have. Maybe Diana too. Just some thoughts.

[PeaceNHarmony]

One of the latest photos I saw of Flo's home...it may have been on Google Street view...there were some holes/tears in the green awnings. When I drove by it just under 10 years ago, it looked great and well maintained from the outside, along with Diana and Mary's former homes. Sadly, I can't say the same for some of the other homes on that street.

Funny enough, there was a 'fan' who posted a link to their own Go Fund Me online fundraising page in one of the Flo groups on Facebook a few days ago. This person claimed that they had recently bought her former home and stated that it is in dire need of major repairs and renovations due to ongoing leaks and water damage all throughout the home. They provided a few photos of the supposed damage. They were asking fans for a monetary handout, and in exchange, they claimed that the home could be restored to its former glory and potentially become a museum or fan gathering spot. The whole thing seemed very fishy and likely a scam. I called them out on it and the link was removed. So I do not know whether their claims regarding interior damage is true or not, but it does seem it was indeed recently sold to a new owner this past summer. If they did a YouTube video, touring the home, I would find their story more believable, but I still wouldn't donate. I basically said that Flo is no longer with us and neither she, nor her family, have had a connection to this house for decades...let her rest in peace. I'm so sick of all of these sketchy people coming out of the woodwork, making false claims and trying to garner their own money and fame off of Flo.

If I were to donate to anything in relation to her memory or legacy, it would be helping to secure her a better headstone marker. This was something I had looked into some years ago and the cemetery had presented some options, including an engraved cement tribute bench, but I ended up abandoning the idea. Just too many complications, the biggest one being the potential for vandalism. When I last visited, someone had cut a giant hole in one of the chain link fences.That's a nice idea, Carlo, and I would be on board for it. A scholarship would be great as well. Admittedly the pictures I found were quickie Google-image sorts of things so the details were not readily visible.

[dannyboy1968]

I'm hope this is not a strange question to ask, but, are there any photos of the inside of Ms. Ballards home either past photos or recent? I've only seen various photos of her living room, but I've always been curious about what the home looked like as a whole. It appeared to be very beautifully furnished.

[thanxal]

I’m not sure I could handle the conundrum of what to wear nomis. :eek:
Or imagine trying to decide which records to play? And in what order?

[RanRan79]

I'm hope this is not a strange question to ask, but, are there any photos of the inside of Ms. Ballards home either past photos or recent? I've only seen various photos of her living room, but I've always been curious about what the home looked like as a whole. It appeared to be very beautifully furnished.

The living room seems to have been the most publicly photographed, but I've seen a couple of photos of Flo's bedroom. And there's a couple of fairly well known photos of the Supremes and Florence's family taken in Flo's basement.

[RanRan79]

Or imagine trying to decide which records to play? And in what order?

Oh yeah, like anyone believes your arm would have to be twisted to play Supremes A Go Go before anything else.:p

[marybrewster]

How long did each of the Supremes actually live in their home? I believe Mary shared half of her home with Cholly and Mae. Diana moved her Mom in, and it's said she gutted a few rooms to build a large walk in closet? But when did they sell? It sounds like Flo lived in hers the longest?

And didn't Flo end up with a smaller, more modest home?

[thanxal]

Oh yeah, like anyone believes your arm would have to be twisted to play Supremes A Go Go before anything else.:p
I mean... I have to pretend there are other records! ;)

[reese]

How long did each of the Supremes actually live in their home? I believe Mary shared half of her home with Cholly and Mae. Diana moved her Mom in, and it's said she gutted a few rooms to build a large walk in closet? But when did they sell? It sounds like Flo lived in hers the longest?

And didn't Flo end up with a smaller, more modest home?

I assume Diana left her home when she moved to California in 1970. In her EBONY cover story that year, it showed photos taken in her first temporary California home before she moved to Beverly Hills. As far as when she sold the Detroit home, I thought someone posted that she still had some family members living in the house. I don't know for sure.

I believe Mary moved to California in 1968. She wrote finalizing some of the details of her upcoming move was one of the factors that led to her not being on LOVE CHILD. In her second book, Mary wrote briefly about selling her two Detroit homes. I think it was sometime in the mid-70s but I don't have the book in front of me.

[nomis]

I never believed the publicity hokum Motown put out at the time that the ladies just "Happened" to each choose a house on the same street.[[without each other knowing)..I suspect Motown picked the houses for them
As Mary said so many times Motown used to "take care of everything" in their lives.. i think it includes the purchase of their homes at this period..

[RanRan79]

I never believed the publicity hokum Motown put out at the time that the ladies just "Happened" to each choose a house on the same street.[[without each other knowing)..I suspect Motown picked the houses for them
As Mary said so many times Motown used to "take care of everything" i think it includes the purchase of their homes at this period..

Mary says someone's girlfriend searched for houses. When the Supremes returned from a tour they were presented with the choices and it was after choosing that they discovered they had all purchased homes on the same street. I believe the story. Motown did a lot of messed up things where the Supremes were concerned, but even I can't believe that the Supremes would come back from a tour and be told "Oh, by the way, Motown bought houses for you all. All you have to do is move in." In particular I find it hard to believe that Flo and Diana would've been cool with Motown making that kind of choice for them.

Also I have to wonder how much of a variety of homes could the ladies have been presented with. This was still Detroit mid 1960s and there were neighborhoods that were even off limits to the Supremes. I imagine there might not have been a ton of Supreme worthy options, and it just so happened that the ladies all chose homes on the same street because the houses best suited their needs. Flo had a ton of family she planned to move into hers. Diana's mother still had school aged children at home. And not only did Mary buy a duplex for herself, which she rented out the other half to Cholly, but she purchased a separate house for her mother somewhere else.

[nomis]

Mary says someone's girlfriend searched for houses. When the Supremes returned from a tour they were presented with the choices and it was after choosing that they discovered they had all purchased homes on the same street. I believe the story. Motown did a lot of messed up things where the Supremes were concerned, but even I can't believe that the Supremes would come back from a tour and be told "Oh, by the way, Motown bought houses for you all. All you have to do is move in." In particular I find it hard to believe that Flo and Diana would've been cool with Motown making that kind of choice for them.

Also I have to wonder how much of a variety of homes could the ladies have been presented with. This was still Detroit mid 1960s and there were neighborhoods that were even off limits to the Supremes. I imagine there might not have been a ton of Supreme worthy options, and it just so happened that the ladies all chose homes on the same street because the houses best suited their needs. Flo had a ton of family she planned to move into hers. Diana's mother still had school aged children at home. And not only did Mary buy a duplex for herself, which she rented out the other half to Cholly, but she purchased a separate house for her mother somewhere else.

But if it was their choice would Diana and Flo choose to live basically opposite each other ? I can see your point RanRan but at the same time no one can deny just how controlling Motown was of its roster..they didnt question they were told..which lead to spectacular rebellion in time from Diana, Mary and Florence [[also most notable marvin and Stevie)

[RanRan79]

But if it was their choice would Diana and Flo choose to live basically opposite each other ? I can see your point RanRan but at the same time no one can deny just how controlling Motown was of its roster..they didnt question they were told..which lead to spectacular rebellion in time from Diana, Mary and Florence [[also most notable marvin and Stevie)

I think you might be confused about the details. The story goes that the ladies didn't discover that they had all made purchases on the same street until after they had bought the houses. Now had they all been involved in the process together rather than individually, would Flo and Diana have chosen to live directly across the street from one another? Probably not. And not because they had a personal problem with one another- this was 1965 after all- but because they probably would've thought "Look we're together 24/7 as it is. Must we be together even when we're at home?";) And honestly, if this was a premeditated publicity stunt by Motown, wouldn't it have made more sense to have all three ladies living near each other? It's my understanding that although Mary's home is also on the same street, she's like a couple blocks away. And Flo and Diana's homes are "identical" while Mary got a duplex? Why would a duplex be chosen for Mary? You're definitely right on the money about how controlling Motown was, but I think even Motown had it's limits. Telling someone where they [[and their families) had to live just seems a tad too far, even for Gordy and company. Lol

[nomis]

I think you might be confused about the details. The story goes that the ladies didn't discover that they had all made purchases on the same street until after they had bought the houses. Now had they all been involved in the process together rather than individually, would Flo and Diana have chosen to live directly across the street from one another? Probably not. And not because they had a personal problem with one another- this was 1965 after all- but because they probably would've thought "Look we're together 24/7 as it is. Must we be together even when we're at home?";) And honestly, if this was a premeditated publicity stunt by Motown, wouldn't it have made more sense to have all three ladies living near each other? It's my understanding that although Mary's home is also on the same street, she's like a couple blocks away. And Flo and Diana's homes are "identical" while Mary got a duplex? Why would a duplex be chosen for Mary? You're definitely right on the money about how controlling Motown was, but I think even Motown had it's limits. Telling someone where they [[and their families) had to live just seems a tad too far, even for Gordy and company. Lol

good points thanks for the reply RanRan..such is the indomitable mystique of Motown..fact can often be hard to discern from the mythos..

[kenneth]

But if it was their choice would Diana and Flo choose to live basically opposite each other ? I can see your point RanRan but at the same time no one can deny just how controlling Motown was of its roster..they didnt question they were told..which lead to spectacular rebellion in time from Diana, Mary and Florence [[also most notable marvin and Stevie)

Well I don’t find it odd at all that they all lived on the same street. After all we all know from the “Playboy“ album cover that the Marvelettes even all lived in the same house!

[woodward]

The picture of Florence's home on the introductory page 1 showing the SUV on the left of the house and the black car in front of the house originated from the Walter Reuther Library [date unknown]. I have a book put out by the Motor City Blight Busters, Home in Detroit, that has this exact picture in and attributes it to the library I mentioned. The book also includes pictures of Diana's place at 3762 W. Buena Vista and Mary's place at 4099 W. Buena Vista. Mary's place is an AP image and Diana's is also a Walter Reuther Library picture. I would love to see a modern date 2021 picture of all three of these homes. Don't we have a member living in Detroit that could help us out on this?

[BayouMotownMan]

Diana's house is at 3762, Florence's house is at 3767 and Mary's house is at 4099 Buena Vista.

According to google maps there is no 3762 Buena Vista. I thought Diana still owned the house with her sister living there

[reese]

According to google maps there is no 3762 Buena Vista. I thought Diana still owned the house with her sister living there

Maybe it is 3760? In her book, Diana includes a photo of herself posing in front of the home. The #s are very small but they could be 3760.

[woodward]

According to google maps there is no 3762 Buena Vista. I thought Diana still owned the house with her sister living there

It is per Home In Detroit published by the Motor City Blight Busters

3762 W. Buena Vista.

There is also a Buena Vista Avenue

[BayouMotownMan]

[QUOTE=woodward;668065]It is per Home In Detroit published by the Motor City Blight Busters

3762 W. Buena Vista.

There is also a Buena Vista Avenue[/QUOTE

There is a house that has 3762 on one side and 3760 on the other side, she had a duplex? Looks rather modest for her stature

[reese]

[QUOTE=woodward;668065]It is per Home In Detroit published by the Motor City Blight Busters

3762 W. Buena Vista.

There is also a Buena Vista Avenue[/QUOTE

There is a house that has 3762 on one side and 3760 on the other side, she had a duplex? Looks rather modest for her stature

Not sure of the #, but I thought Diana's family lived on one floor and she had the other floor to herself. Later, she said that she gave her brothers her space because they were going through a rebellious stage that made her mom unhappy and she wasn't using it anyway.

[kenneth]

It definitely appears that the Ross house contained two residences. I always thought of a duplex as a side-by-side home; this one appears to be what I would call flats with a single entrance but then one story belonging to one family and another story belonging to the other. Here’s the photo that I think the previous poster was referring to. There appears to be just one front door, but two addresses [[3760 and 3762) on either side of it. Growing up in Detroit, I do remember some homes in this general neighborhood where you would come into a common entryway and then go upstairs to another entrance for the upper flat or go through a door in the foyer to the lower flat.

ignore the number that appears at the bottom of the photo; that was simply the address I entered to get onto the street. It looks like this house is almost directly across the street from the one owned by Florence Ballard.

i’m sorry these didn’t reproduce better, you can blow them up but then of course the numbers are hard to distinguish.

19414

19415

[Ollie9]

It definitely appears that the Ross house contained two residences. I always thought of a duplex as a side-by-side home; this one appears to be what I would call flats with a single entrance but then one story belonging to one family and another story belonging to the other. Here’s the photo that I think the previous poster was referring to. There appears to be just one front door, but two addresses [[3760 and 3762) on either side of it. Growing up in Detroit, I do remember some homes in this general neighborhood where you would come into a common entryway and then go upstairs to another entrance for the upper flat or go through a door in the foyer to the lower flat.

ignore the number that appears at the bottom of the photo; that was simply the address I entered to get onto the street. It looks like this house is almost directly across the street from the one owned by Florence Ballard.

i’m sorry these didn’t reproduce better, you can blow them up but then of course the numbers are hard to distinguish.

19414

19415

Is Buena Vista located in an upmarket part of Detroit Kenneth, or not particularly?.

[kenneth]

Is Buena Vista located in an upmarket part of Detroit Kenneth, or not particularly?.

According to Trulia.com, The house was built in 1940. That would make it part of of the auto manufacturing boom that led to Detroit population expanding during the first half of the 20th century. I would say it was a nice middle-class neighborhood. I grew up several miles away from there in an area that was probably considered upper middle class, but had many homes similar in style to the Ross home, though I don’t recall any flats in the neighborhood I grew up in or any multi family homes except possibly a few on some of the busy streets that went through the area.

The other major event that affected Detroit housing was the 1967 riots, after which there was a huge amount of “white flight“ from the city to the suburbs. That started a lot of the declining property values and the eventual decline in the city population which persists today.


Detroit was a great place to grow up and I’m glad to see that many things going on with the city are leading to its revitalization. But in my opinion, Detroit’s almost sole focus on the auto industry and its nearly complete dependence on that industry was the biggest factor in the city’s decline over the years.

[RanRan79]

But in my opinion, Detroit’s almost sole focus on the auto industry and its nearly complete dependence on that industry was the biggest factor in the city’s decline over the years.

I agree. Add to that certain other cities, like Gary, Indiana, whose economy was so dependent on the steel industry, and what happened when it began to decline. I think cities are trying to do better now about diversifying it's portfolio, if you will, largely because of cautionary tales like Detroit, Gary and others.

[Ollie9]

According to Trulia.com, The house was built in 1940. That would make it part of of the auto manufacturing boom that led to Detroit population expanding during the first half of the 20th century. I would say it was a nice middle-class neighborhood. I grew up several miles away from there in an area that was probably considered upper middle class, but had many homes similar in style to the Ross home, though I don’t recall any flats in the neighborhood I grew up in or any multi family homes except possibly a few on some of the busy streets that went through the area.

The other major event that affected Detroit housing was the 1967 riots, after which there was a huge amount of “white flight“ from the city to the suburbs. That started a lot of the declining property values and the eventual decline in the city population which persists today.


Detroit was a great place to grow up and I’m glad to see that many things going on with the city are leading to its revitalization. But in my opinion, Detroit’s almost sole focus on the auto industry and its nearly complete dependence on that industry was the biggest factor in the city’s decline over the years.

Many thanks for the info Ken. It is something I always wondered.