You Do It....

[Ollie9]

I consider “You Do It” one of the very best songs from her rca period. It’s laidback, almost hypnotic quality gets in your head and stays there.
The fact it was never released as a single was a missed opportunity.
It was certainly very radio friendly for that time frame, and most crucially, unlike “Pieces Of Ice” had decent lyrics that had mass appeal. With plenty of media exposure it would most likely have done very well.
Sheena Easton had recorded the song for an album, but to my knowledge it was never released as a single. Overall i think Diana’s version the superior.

[nomis]

I consider “You Do It” one of the very best songs from her rca period. It’s laidback, almost hypnotic quality gets in your head and stays there.
The fact it was never released as a single was a missed opportunity.
It was certainly very radio friendly for that time frame, and most crucially, unlike “Pieces Of Ice” had decent lyrics that had mass appeal. With plenty of media exposure it would most likely have done very well.
Sheena Easton had recorded the song for an album, but to my knowledge it was never released as a single. Overall i think Diana’s version the superior.

Totally agree the bridge is sublime "what did I do right to get you in my life when I need you..need you to stay..._" isn't it written by the multi talented debbie allen ?

[Ollie9]

Totally agree the bridge is sublime "what did I do right to get you in my life when I need you..need you to stay..._" isn't it written by the multi talented debbie allen ?

I believe it was country singer Deborah Allen as opposed to Debbie A who co-wrote the song. I adore it’s laidback simplicity.
“Let’s Go Up” is always the popular choice amongst fans when considering the most suitable lead single from ross 83. I think it to crash, bang, wallop for a Diana Ross single, much the same way “Upfront” was. Dennis Edwards version of “LGU” is far more rounded and soulful then Diana’s.
“You Do It has a classic, timeless quality to it that still sounds fresh and contemporary today.

[Circa 1824]

I am now listening to You Do It. Her vocals sound so thin. Instrumentally, it is also very sparse. That organ is annoying. The song is great, but it needs a bigger and richer production. Can you imagine what a great producer could have done with it?

When Ross went to RCA, she forgot what made her great. Or, maybe she deluded herself thinking it was only all about her. Ross, I love you, but you and your voice were merely layers of an onion.

[Ollie9]

I am now listening to You Do It. Her vocals sound so thin. Instrumentally, it is also very sparse. That organ is annoying. The song is great, but it needs a bigger and richer production. Can you imagine what a great producer could have done with it?

When Ross went to RCA, she forgot what made her great. Or, maybe she deluded herself thinking it was only all about her. Ross, I love you, but you and your voice were merely layers of an onion.

I like your onion quote lol.
I think the sparse and simple production is in keeping with the other songs on the album. Adding more might have spoilt that simplicity. I find Diana’s version superior to Sheena Easton, Helen Reddy or the songs originator singer/writer Deborah Allen.
The only song I would have liked a ‘tad more rounded is “Let’s Go Up” which comes across a little harsh at times.

[Circa 1824]

Ollie, yes Let’s Go Up was a good groove. But, again instrumentally and vocally it lacked depth. Ross’ weak production stamp was all over it. Is there a drummer on the recording; it sounds like a computerized type beat. The background vocals are barely audible. ....... shoestring budget for sure.

This from the greatest recording star of the era? Did she intentionally destroy her career to spite Berry?

And those lyrics ....... “in a world of fading treasures, love is the greatest pleasure....... “

[daviddh]

It's one of my favorites .love it

[Bluebrock]

I consider “You Do It” one of the very best songs from her rca period. It’s laidback, almost hypnotic quality gets in your head and stays there.
The fact it was never released as a single was a missed opportunity.
It was certainly very radio friendly for that time frame, and most crucially, unlike “Pieces Of Ice” had decent lyrics that had mass appeal. With plenty of media exposure it would most likely have done very well.
Sheena Easton had recorded the song for an album, but to my knowledge it was never released as a single. Overall i think Diana’s version the superior.

I also like it. The album was a vast improvement after the mediocre Fools and Silk Electric. However i have to disagree with you regarding the first choice of single . Let's go up remains the obvious choice for me with "you do it" being the ideal follow up. I still maintain some of her vocals remained somewhat understated on this album. We know only too well she was not very professional during the sessions and that lack of motivation kind of undercooks some of the tracks which is a great pity.
Basically any track on the album would have been a better choice than Pieces of ice which is a solid album track but nothing more.
You do it has a lovely Spring like feel to it and sounds ideal on a lovely day such as this. Thanks for posting.

[PeaceNHarmony]

I love YDI.

[Albator]

Maybe it's because you like the sound of Motown or R&B in general that you find this album under-produced.
As far as I'm concerned, I find it quite fascinating of modernity, recorded with exceptional musicians.
Larry Carlton's lead on "pieces of ice" is particularly good.
Overall Diana's distant and barely detached performance adds mystery and sensuality to this very special record.
My favorites are ALL the songs and even Girls sounds good to me now.

[vgalindo]

I live this song. It is one of my all time favorite Diana Ross songs. It should have been the lead single. IMO. “Let’s go up” is not a commercial sounding hit to me.

[Ollie9]

Maybe it's because you like the sound of Motown or R&B in general that you find this album under-produced.
As far as I'm concerned, I find it quite fascinating of modernity, recorded with exceptional musicians.
Larry Carlton's lead on "pieces of ice" is particularly good.
Overall Diana's distant and barely detached performance adds mystery and sensuality to this very special record.
My favorites are ALL the songs and even Girls sounds good to me now.

It certainly was a different kind of sound for Diana. I very much agree about her vocal on “Pieces Of Ice”. She sings with an icy detachment that really suits the song.
”You Do It” was more a return to the traditional Diana Ross sound. This being another reason why it might have caught on. It has a kind of ”One Shining Moment” vibe to it, a song which sold buckets in the UK.
I certainly wish she could have performed it at her Central Park concert.
Diana must also like the song as she posted it on Twitter last year.

[Boogiedown]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fv_d0mitZdc

seems like basically a revisit:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOE0wCpCts0

[Albator]

To me, "you got it" is a typical very good Diana Ross song. A little bit of show biz style, a sultry quality to the voice. "You do it" is different or more subtle.

On Ross83, the only traditional performance is "love or loneliness" that has a Supremes delivery.

[RanRan79]

I believe it was country singer Deborah Allen as opposed to Debbie A who co-wrote the song. I adore it’s laidback simplicity.
“Let’s Go Up” is always the popular choice amongst fans when considering the most suitable lead single from ross 83. I think it to crash, bang, wallop for a Diana Ross single, much the same way “Upfront” was. Dennis Edwards version of “LGU” is far more rounded and soulful then Diana’s.
“You Do It has a classic, timeless quality to it that still sounds fresh and contemporary today.

I adore "Let's Go Up". I love Diana's vocal, although my fav version is the one she did on Carson. I think LGU gets a lot of votes because it's a more "exciting" song than "You Do It". As you said, YDI is laidback. Unfortunately sometimes the more laidback cuts don't get the attention they deserve. Personally I've never really heard anything on the Ross83 album that screams single, but I'm inclined to agree with you here, that releasing anything off that album, "You Do It" probably had the best chance of becoming a hit. I do think the song needed a little extra boost of something...what, I don't know. But it is a wonderful song.

[Ollie9]

I adore "Let's Go Up". I love Diana's vocal, although my fav version is the one she did on Carson. I think LGU gets a lot of votes because it's a more "exciting" song than "You Do It". As you said, YDI is laidback. Unfortunately sometimes the more laidback cuts don't get the attention they deserve. Personally I've never really heard anything on the Ross83 album that screams single, but I'm inclined to agree with you here, that releasing anything off that album, "You Do It" probably had the best chance of becoming a hit. I do think the song needed a little extra boost of something...what, I don't know. But it is a wonderful song.

I agree that it might have needed a single remix to add a little more snap. I think had “You Do It” caught on, it might have paved the way for “Let’s Go Up”. Personally I would have gone with “Love Will Make It Right” as the second single. Less flashy then “LGU” but another overlooked little gem.

[Albator]

“Love Will Make It Right” is certainly a great song, very mature, adult, like she said while promoting TMH. Did she ever sing like that before?

No one talks about "love or loneliness". This one has a thematic she seems to love a lot, we have this kind of message on TMH. "to many nights", " if y
ou'r not gonna love me right"

[sup_fan]

I really like You Do It but i think it might be a bit too low key for a single. within the context of the album, it's a wonderful addition. but to listen to it just on the radio it might be too quiet and unassuming.

[Jaap]

My favorite song from Ross 83 is "That's How You Start Over" and I think it could have been a great first single [[though probably would have needed a single mix). I vividly remember that in the Netherlands the album was premiered on The Soul Show [[every Thursday evening from 8 to 10 on Dutch radio) and they first played "That's How You Start Over" and then the 12 inch mix of "Pieces of Ice." I remember the DJ [[Ferry Maat) stating that "That's How You Start Over" should have been the single, as he was very dismissive of Pieces of Ice, stating that it clearly showed the influence of Gene Simons [[because of the guitar, although I think it was rather a cheap shot). Ross 83 still remains one of my favorite albums, although I think is seems rather unfinished. I do like the Ray Parker songs, though they don't really fit the album. If they had taken more time and found more suitable songs, an album fully produced by Gary Katz could have been a masterpiece -- perhaps not commercially but at least critically.

[TNSUN]

"Pieces of Ice" is cool, musically. The song title and lyrics need to be totally changed. Maybe a song title such as "Eyes of Desire". The instrumental release of the song is great.

"That's How You Start Over" is a great song and should have been released as the album's first single.

[Ollie9]

I really like You Do It but i think it might be a bit too low key for a single. within the context of the album, it's a wonderful addition. but to listen to it just on the radio it might be too quiet and unassuming.

I thought that about “One Shining Moment, yet it reached the top ten here in the UK and is still played on radio.

[RanRan79]

I agree that it might have needed a single remix to add a little more snap.

A little more snap. Believe it or not, that's exactly how I would describe what's missing. And I agree, releasing "You Do It" first might have paved the way for a better showing of "Let's Go Up" as a follow up.

[RanRan79]

No one talks about "love or loneliness". This one has a thematic she seems to love a lot, we have this kind of message on TMH. "to many nights", " if y
ou'r not gonna love me right"

I like "Love Or Loneliness" but feel that the chorus is a real let down. The verses are very Ray Parker, and I can dig it. But the chorus doesn't take the song up a notch. There's no excitement, no catchiness, IMO. So it's a nice album cut, but I wouldn't have put money on it as a single.

[RanRan79]

"Pieces of Ice" is cool, musically. The song title and lyrics need to be totally changed. Maybe a song title such as "Eyes of Desire". The instrumental release of the song is great.

"That's How You Start Over" is a great song and should have been released as the album's first single.

"Pieces Of Ice" had nonsensical lyrics and a New Wave sound, which did not fit Diana Ross. With a different track, different lyrics, keeping only the "when I look in your eyes, pieces of ice", Diana may have had a song she could sink her teeth into. But she was so concerned with pushing the envelop in the wrong direction. Yes, Diana Ross can sing just about anything. With such a pliable voice, it often works. But at this point Diana Ross had been a superstar with global impact for nearly 20 years [[counting the Supremes) and the hits she had racked up were all in a certain direction, and New Wave wasn't it. As is, could POI work as a lp track? Sure. Had she decided to experiment for an album track, fine. But hits were what drove album sales, and at this point surely Diana understood the importance of being an album artist. "Pieces Of Ice" was not going to set the world on fire, and it wasn't going to make people buy Ross83.

As for "That's How You Start Over", IMO by this point the song sounds dated. She needed this on Silk Electric. One might question what difference a year makes, but I think sometimes it does. There's a difference between what was hot in 1982 vs what was hot in 1983. "Start Over" might have gotten quite a bit of love the year before, but by this point it was a bit too late.

[daviddh]

That's how you start over is a good track as well.
Loved all side one

[sup_fan]

most of the songs on Ross 83 never make it out of second gear. Love or Loneliness is a great track too. very promising. but never shifts up to 4th or 5th gear. and it's ok to have some variety on an album. some more mellow and low key, some high energy. some lovely ballads.

for a track to really pop or snap, typically after the bridge there's a significant build. added instrumentation, a key change, bigger vocals, more ad libs, etc. it climaxes.

Ross 83 has 0 climaxes

[after you]

The Ross 83 is album Is quite significant it’s a lot better than a lot of the crap that’s been put out today she does a very good job on this album there’s no denying it

[Ollie9]

"Pieces Of Ice" had nonsensical lyrics and a New Wave sound, which did not fit Diana Ross. With a different track, different lyrics, keeping only the "when I look in your eyes, pieces of ice", Diana may have had a song she could sink her teeth into. But she was so concerned with pushing the envelop in the wrong direction. Yes, Diana Ross can sing just about anything. With such a pliable voice, it often works. But at this point Diana Ross had been a superstar with global impact for nearly 20 years [[counting the Supremes) and the hits she had racked up were all in a certain direction, and New Wave wasn't it. As is, could POI work as a lp track? Sure. Had she decided to experiment for an album track, fine. But hits were what drove album sales, and at this point surely Diana understood the importance of being an album artist. "Pieces Of Ice" was not going to set the world on fire, and it wasn't going to make people buy Ross83.

As for "That's How You Start Over", IMO by this point the song sounds dated. She needed this on Silk Electric. One might question what difference a year makes, but I think sometimes it does. There's a difference between what was hot in 1982 vs what was hot in 1983. "Start Over" might have gotten quite a bit of love the year before, but by this point it was a bit too late.

I tend to agree with your points regarding “Pieces Of Ice”.
“That’s How You Start Over” is a positive, feel good song with lyrics that peeps would relate to. Having said that, i feel it lacks the energy and drive to become a hit single. It’s just a pleasant album track.
The album is nowhere near long enough which might possibly have dented sales to some degree. It comes across as unfinished.
I have always been to two minds regarding the artwork. I’ve never been one for pink. :)

[Albator]

for a track to really pop or snap, typically after the bridge there's a significant build. added instrumentation, a key change, bigger vocals, more ad libs, etc. it climaxes.
Ross 83 has 0 climaxes


Those are expectations for typical Motown Sound or commercial hits, like they did on "Baby it's me", but it's not the sound of Steely Dan. She wanted something different and it works very well for me.

[Albator]

As for "That's How You Start Over", IMO by this point the song sounds dated. She needed this on Silk Electric. One might question what difference a year makes, but I think sometimes it does. There's a difference between what was hot in 1982 vs what was hot in 1983. "Start Over" might have gotten quite a bit of love the year before, but by this point it was a bit too late.I don't get your point :confused:

[RanRan79]

most of the songs on Ross 83 never make it out of second gear. Love or Loneliness is a great track too. very promising. but never shifts up to 4th or 5th gear. and it's ok to have some variety on an album. some more mellow and low key, some high energy. some lovely ballads.

for a track to really pop or snap, typically after the bridge there's a significant build. added instrumentation, a key change, bigger vocals, more ad libs, etc. it climaxes.

Ross 83 has 0 climaxes

^^^This!!!

[RanRan79]

I tend to agree with your points regarding “Pieces Of Ice”.
“That’s How You Start Over” is a positive, feel good song with lyrics that peeps would relate to. Having said that, i feel it lacks the energy and drive to become a hit single. It’s just a pleasant album track.
The album is nowhere near long enough which might possibly have dented sales to some degree. It comes across as unfinished.
I have always been to two minds regarding the artwork. I’ve never been one for pink. :)

I think the energy was there, but other elements that would've made it a big hit were absent. And I agree, about the album seeming unfinished. I suspect that if she had taken more time with Silk Electric, which might have combined some of those cuts with some of the ones from Ross83, plus some even better cuts, she may have made a grade A album. Luckily for us all Swept Away was up next.

[RanRan79]

I don't get your point :confused:

The song sounds dated. Not sure how much more clearer I could've been. "Start Over" kind of reminds me of some of the stuff Quincy Jones did for MJ and Donna Summer in 1982. Also reminds me of the Pointer Sisters' "Could I Be Dreaming" from 1980. Now while MJ's stuff was, um, red hot;), "Start Over" sounds like it could've been a demo for something that evolved into the great stuff that ended up on Thriller album. Not a good look when a Ross cut sounds like the demo to something better cut a year or more ago.

[SatansBlues]

It's a nice enough song, but I don't hear a hit in it. It's not really a dance hit nor a ballad. It's not really a memorable song.

[reese]

I think the energy was there, but other elements that would've made it a big hit were absent. And I agree, about the album seeming unfinished. I suspect that if she had taken more time with Silk Electric, which might have combined some of those cuts with some of the ones from Ross83, plus some even better cuts, she may have made a grade A album. Luckily for us all Swept Away was up next.

I like ROSS [[1983) a great deal more than SILK ELECTRIC. But it probably was rushed. She had to get it out in time for her Central Park concert and subsequent tour. If there had been no CP, it probably wouldn't have been released until the fall like her other RCA albums.

That said, I do like most of the songs on it, YOU DO IT being one of them. But that song doesn't scream "single" to me.

PIECES OF ICE is ok but sort of trendy but I wonder how it would come across live.

LET'S GO UP is nice but I think it might be a tad slow. She really did it well in concert.

I might have tried LOVE OR LONELINESS as a single, with a nice video to accompany it.

[Albator]

The song sounds dated. Not sure how much more clearer I could've been. "Start Over" kind of reminds me of some of the stuff Quincy Jones did for MJ and Donna Summer in 1982. Also reminds me of the Pointer Sisters' "Could I Be Dreaming" from 1980. Now while MJ's stuff was, um, red hot;), "Start Over" sounds like it could've been a demo for something that evolved into the great stuff that ended up on Thriller album. Not a good look when a Ross cut sounds like the demo to something better cut a year or more ago.
that's an opinion, but not mine.

[SatansBlues]

The song sounds dated. Not sure how much more clearer I could've been. "Start Over" kind of reminds me of some of the stuff Quincy Jones did for MJ and Donna Summer in 1982. Also reminds me of the Pointer Sisters' "Could I Be Dreaming" from 1980. Now while MJ's stuff was, um, red hot;), "Start Over" sounds like it could've been a demo for something that evolved into the great stuff that ended up on Thriller album. Not a good look when a Ross cut sounds like the demo to something better cut a year or more ago.

That's How You Start Over is the best track on the album. Listening to it just now, it could have easily been a track on her Baby It's Me album or her Ross '78 album. It sound like an older track, but again it's the best track on this album.

[RanRan79]

I like ROSS [[1983) a great deal more than SILK ELECTRIC. But it probably was rushed. She had to get it out in time for her Central Park concert and subsequent tour. If there had been no CP, it probably wouldn't have been released until the fall like her other RCA albums.

That said, I do like most of the songs on it, YOU DO IT being one of them. But that song doesn't scream "single" to me.

PIECES OF ICE is ok but sort of trendy but I wonder how it would come across live.

LET'S GO UP is nice but I think it might be a tad slow. She really did it well in concert.

I might have tried LOVE OR LONELINESS as a single, with a nice video to accompany it.

Makes sense Reese that she would want product out in time for the concert. I didn't consider that.

[RanRan79]

that's an opinion, but not mine.

And now that you've explained to me what an opinion is and that I said it and you didn't, what more is left to life?

[RanRan79]

That's How You Start Over is the best track on the album. Listening to it just now, it could have easily been a track on her Baby It's Me album or her Ross '78 album. It sound like an older track, but again it's the best track on this album.

It's dated but I wouldn't go that far. Lol It doesn't sound to me like anything that would've been cut for inclusion for either of those albums.

[SatansBlues]

It's dated but I wouldn't go that far. Lol It doesn't sound to me like anything that would've been cut for inclusion for either of those albums.

The tracks on her diana [[1980) album sound "fresher and newer" than That's How You Start Over. Again, it's the best track on that album.

[sup_fan]

the euro synthesizer pop/dance sounds that Ross 83 contain were not too dated by early 83. they weren't necessarily shockingly new or groundbreaking but they weren't passe, like a disco beat would have sounded.

but they never really do anything new or exciting with them either. this album doesn't take the concept of electronica and really do anything new with it. there were New Wave and other influences that could have been explored too.

[nomis]

there used to be rumours that there was quite a few tracks recorded for Ross83 that didnt make the album..

[Ollie9]

the euro synthesizer pop/dance sounds that Ross 83 contain were not too dated by early 83. they weren't necessarily shockingly new or groundbreaking but they weren't passe, like a disco beat would have sounded.

but they never really do anything new or exciting with them either. this album doesn't take the concept of electronica and really do anything new with it. there were New Wave and other influences that could have been explored too.

“Nobody Makes Me Crazy” would have been more at home on ross 83 then “Swept Away. Perhaps in place of the dreaded “Girls” which I know you happen to really like. :confused:

[Ollie9]

most of the songs on Ross 83 never make it out of second gear. Love or Loneliness is a great track too. very promising. but never shifts up to 4th or 5th gear. and it's ok to have some variety on an album. some more mellow and low key, some high energy. some lovely ballads.

for a track to really pop or snap, typically after the bridge there's a significant build. added instrumentation, a key change, bigger vocals, more ad libs, etc. it climaxes.

Ross 83 has 0 climaxes

I think the sparse simplicity of the production is what lends the album its appeal. No histrionics or thumping beats.

[Albator]

“Nobody Makes Me Crazy” would have been more at home on ross 83 then “Swept Away. Perhaps in place of the dreaded “Girls” which I know you happen to really like. :confused:
I first thought« Fight for it » was an out Take from Ross, since it’s similar to Girls

[Bluebrock]

there used to be rumours that there was quite a few tracks recorded for Ross83 that didnt make the album..
There were four additional tracks as i recall. Ten tracks were chosen, and then it was cut back to eight.

[Ollie9]

I first thought« Fight for it » was an out Take from Ross, since it’s similar to Girls

That thought had crossed my mind. If only it had been. I find “Girls” hard going. It spoils the flow of the album.

[Ollie9]

There were four additional tracks as i recall. Ten tracks were chosen, and then it was cut back to eight.

Was Diana herself responsible for that decision Blue, or was it the company?.

[Albator]

Ray Parker once mentioned that RCA didn't want to push this album. Maybe they cut all others songs, [[supposedly self produced by Ms Ross) to keep the integrity of this new sound. Maybe they were feared another Silk. If those songs have not surfaced yet, we can suspect they were not very good.


To me this Ross 83 direction was very interesting but maybe her fans were not interested in this kind of "yacht rock" sound for her. In the years to come, Sade will enjoy major success with soft jazz and rather detached performances.

[Bluebrock]

Was Diana herself responsible for that decision Blue, or was it the company?.

It was the Company Ollie.

[Ollie9]

Ray Parker once mentioned that RCA didn't want to push this album. Maybe they cut all others songs, [[supposedly self produced by Ms Ross) to keep the integrity of this new sound. Maybe they were feared another Silk. If those songs have not surfaced yet, we can suspect they were not very good.


To me this Ross 83 direction was very interesting but maybe her fans were not interested in this kind of "yacht rock" sound for her. In the years to come, Sade will enjoy major success with soft jazz and rather detached performances.

Interesting. I wonder why a label would be reluctant to promote its own product. A clash of artistic vision perhaps?.
I’m always keen to learn new info on ross 83 as it happens to be a particular favourite of mine. For me the album was a welcome change of style. Diana’s relaxed vocals really suit the mood of the songs. It’s strange how an air of mystery seems to surround the project with additional recordings being kept under wraps.
I can’t imagine any of those songs being worse then “Girls”, but who knows.

[sup_fan]

i thought someone on here mentioned that not too long after Diana joined RCA, the leadership changed. A new president or something. and he did not want to focus on the artists that his predecessor brought in or had success with. Like Kenny and Diana

[Ollie9]

It was the Company Ollie.

Which adds yet more intrigue. What on earth was going down i wonder?.

[reese]

i thought someone on here mentioned that not too long after Diana joined RCA, the leadership changed. A new president or something. and he did not want to focus on the artists that his predecessor brought in or had success with. Like Kenny and Diana

Glenwood posted this back in November.

I’ve told the general story of why Diana’s career at RCA petered out in the past. For some reason I couldn’t find it in the archives here so I’ll quote myself from a different website to give some general context to the goings on at the label circa 85-88...

‘“Catching back up on the thread and saw this so I'll fill in the details as I've learned them from Kenny's memoir and a few other industry books. When Bob Buziak replaced Bob Summers as head of RCA around 84-85, he found the label was in a major drought thanks to massive overpressing of titles, poor A&R, rampant overspending by the prior regime, and overpriced contracts. Diana Ross was signed for $20 million for example and would only score 1 platinum & 2 gold sellers out of 6 releases in 7 years. Kenny was guaranteed 4 million per album no matter how well it did. Even the album with Islands In The Stream only did a million. The follow up and the Dolly Xmas projects in 84 did as well and then he went off the cliff until his contract ended in 88. Rogers requested a sitdown with Buziak when his sales and pop chart action went south. There he was told that no matter what product he turned in the label had no real interest in marketing him anymore. Buziak added that if they did, it would make the folks that hired him wonder why they fired Summers. It was rumored this logic also applied to Ross. He was only going to only promote his signings. He also considered Barry Manilow's deal unrecoupable so he cut him from the label after a year and 2 releases to let him run back to Clive Davis. This may also help explain why Hall & Oates and the Pointer Sisters also suddenly stopped having consistent hits and a slew of new signings took off culminating in a mega Soundtrack we'll discuss in a bit that netted RCA $150 million.

[sup_fan]

here's some interesting info on RCA on wikipedia. So maybe the DR deal was a poor business decision for the company - they paid a LOT up front for her to sign and the albums really didn't set the business on fire. and DR wasn't the only financial issue. Plus she wasn't a "new hot pop artist." she was now approaching 40, which is ANCIENT in the US pop world



During the mid-1980s, RCA Records operated at a deficit, due in part to "overpriced deals" with pop stars including Kenny Rogers and Diana Ross. In 1986, the label bought back $25 million in unsold albums and lost $35 million during the fiscal year 1987. As a partial corrective, a decentralized style of management which allowed RCA Records to function as a free-standing entrepreneurial business was implemented for 1988. Buziak drastically cut the RCA roster from around 40 acts to 11, and began to rebuild it with a focus on developing artists, including artists acquired through marketing and distribution agreements with Beggars Banquet Records and Jive Records, whose roster included Schooly D, Kool Moe Dee, and DJ Jazzy Jeff & The Fresh Prince.

[RanRan79]

the euro synthesizer pop/dance sounds that Ross 83 contain were not too dated by early 83. they weren't necessarily shockingly new or groundbreaking but they weren't passe, like a disco beat would have sounded.

but they never really do anything new or exciting with them either. this album doesn't take the concept of electronica and really do anything new with it. there were New Wave and other influences that could have been explored too.

The album wasn't dated. I was referring to "That's How You Start Over" specifically, had it been released as a single. It had a similar sound to the other stuff I mentioned, but wasn't in the same league. Easily passed over like some of her other singles at the time.

[RanRan79]

I have no sympathy for RCA where Diana is concerned. Dumb business move to pay her that much money and not invest in maximizing the potential. The industry is large, and yet small at the same time. No one can convince me that TPTB at RCA weren't aware that at Motown, Diana's musical success was not of her own doing. She was not a self contained artist like a Stevie or Marvin. To enter into any agreement with her where she was the head of a project over the label itself was a dumb ass business decision. There were so many other ways in which Diana Ross could stretch her wings as an independent woman in control of her interests, but music should not have been one of them. Either she agree to the label controlling her music output or find another label. And if no takers, either she agree to letting a label control things or do something else with her life. With the exception of a couple major songs and two big albums, nothing she did at RCA justified what they paid her.

[sup_fan]

The album wasn't dated. I was referring to "That's How You Start Over" specifically, had it been released as a single. It had a similar sound to the other stuff I mentioned, but wasn't in the same league. Easily passed over like some of her other singles at the time.

oh gotcha :) i agree with That's How isn't the best single but it is a fun and strong opener to the album.

here's a question - to my ear, That's How has some hints towards the Pointer Sister's Jump For My Love. Fun hot dance number. That's How is nowhere near as powerful as Jump but maybe if it had been amped up, strong vocals.

thoughts?

[RanRan79]

oh gotcha :) i agree with That's How isn't the best single but it is a fun and strong opener to the album.

here's a question - to my ear, That's How has some hints towards the Pointer Sister's Jump For My Love. Fun hot dance number. That's How is nowhere near as powerful as Jump but maybe if it had been amped up, strong vocals.

thoughts?

Sounds more like "Could I Be Dreaming" to me, but I think if it was heavily remixed, especially the chorus, it may have had hit potential. Yeah, of all the songs, changes made, I think this would've been the breakout hit of the album. But it needed more work. As is, it may have done better than the singles actually released, but still largely ignored in favor of the "better" songs out at the time.

[Bluebrock]

Which adds yet more intrigue. What on earth was going down i wonder?.

Some very serious shit was going on.

[sup_fan]

I have no sympathy for RCA where Diana is concerned. Dumb business move to pay her that much money and not invest in maximizing the potential. The industry is large, and yet small at the same time. No one can convince me that TPTB at RCA weren't aware that at Motown, Diana's musical success was not of her own doing. She was not a self contained artist like a Stevie or Marvin. To enter into any agreement with her where she was the head of a project over the label itself was a dumb ass business decision. There were so many other ways in which Diana Ross could stretch her wings as an independent woman in control of her interests, but music should not have been one of them. Either she agree to the label controlling her music output or find another label. And if no takers, either she agree to letting a label control things or do something else with her life. With the exception of a couple major songs and two big albums, nothing she did at RCA justified what they paid her.

i would guess that the coup for a label to steal DIANA ROSS away from motown was the motivation. everyone knew how closely tied Berry and Diana were, the massive impact they had had on the music industry. and just the overall brand of 'DIANA ROSS' was so huge at this time. many corporate execs could be easily blinded by such an opportunity. Also they didn't know necessarily all of the "behind the scenes" elements since motown did a solid job of keeping those under wraps. Other artists HAD been much more involved in the specifics of their career.

[Albator]

Interesting. I wonder why a label would be reluctant to promote its own product. A clash of artistic vision perhaps?.
I’m always keen to learn new info on ross 83 as it happens to be a particular favourite of mine. For me the album was a welcome change of style. Diana’s relaxed vocals really suit the mood of the songs. It’s strange how an air of mystery seems to surround the project with additional recordings being kept under wraps.
I can’t imagine any of those songs being worse then “Girls”, but who knows.
:o:o:o I know what you mean. But "Girl" was an improvement in term of production skill. When I was young, and unaware about who did what on a record, I was unhappy because of a terrible song, but while listening Silk, I was unhappy with a poorly produced album.

[Ollie9]

Some very serious shit was going on.

That sounds very Machiavellian Blue. What exactly was going on?. I’m starting to get worried.

[SatansBlues]

That sounds very Machiavellian Blue. What exactly was going on?. I’m starting to get worried.
IKR? Talk about a cliff-hanger and tease!!!

[nomis]

I wonder why there was no music videos for "Lets Go Up" & "Upfront" in this time period releasing singles without videos was a death knell to chart success

[drlorne]

Do you remember mixed tapes? I put this on one for my now husband. It was perfect. I'm not a lyrics person, but even I heard these and thought they were perfect. I know lyrics are important to her too. A perfect song. I still love it. Thanks for bringing back into my memory.

[Bluebrock]

That sounds very Machiavellian Blue. What exactly was going on?. I’m starting to get worried.
It's all very much in the past now. Let us just say there were major faults on both sides with neither side willing to budge, and that pretty much destroyed the relationship between Ms Ross and rca.

[Ollie9]

I wonder why there was no music videos for "Lets Go Up" & "Upfront" in this time period releasing singles without videos was a death knell to chart success

I think they blew the budget on “Pieces Of Ice”. As regards “Upfront”, i honestly don’t think a promotional video would have made that much a difference to the outcome. It being totally the wrong choice for a DR single. I believe the song was singled out for praise in many USA trade reviews which probably influenced the decision
With lyrics that speak of love and devotion, “You Do It” would have given them plenty of scope to create a really cute video.

[TheMotownManiac]

I completely support Miss Ross’s deal with RCA, it was the smartest thing she could have done. They gave her financial security and that’s more important than anything. And she may have felt that because of her input on the chic album, That she would be able to helm her own productions. In my opinion, there was only one true commercially viable album at RCA and that was swept away. I’m guessing that a lot of people bought the first album, played it once or twice and never touched it again. It was the follow up to a very exciting album and had the biggest song of her career on it plus two middling top 10 singles, still, considering the situation, It was a letdown - even with its platinum status, it was positioned to do much better if it was a stronger album. At the time, everyone I knew thought that silk electric and Ross 83 were major disappointments. Swept Away did well on the strength of its own strength - overcoming the severe handicap of following two or, arguably, three disappointing releases. Eaten had some possibilities, and the last album was just a disaster with nothing even having a glimmer of hope Of getting adds.

At the time, I felt the only viable single on ross 83 was up front because it sounded what was on the radio at the time. My personal favorite, that’s how you start over, might have it because occasionally a quality track like that, without the usual top 40 format sound, breaks through and I think this one had a decent chance of that because of its multiformat possibilities. However, I would not have bet money on it becoming a hit single.
at the time, I thought you do it was a snore, people that I knew that bought the album usually use that song as an example of why they hated it so much. In retrospect, let’s say in the last 10 years, I have begun to think that it might have had a chance, but only a chance. There’s no sure fire hit on this album for sure, and I still think the wisest thing to do would have been to release up front first - After re-recording it in a slightly lower key because she’s too screechy at the end and I can’t imagine too many people hearing that on the radio and thinking I wanna listen to diana ross straining to those high notes. Pieces of ice and let’s go up both had major major major exposure and didn’t get any interest whatsoever. I don’t think anything, including payola, could’ve put let’s go up even close to the top 50. If it were up to me, and it never is, I probably would have done up front, that’s how you start over And consulted the psychic friends network for guidance for the third single release while hoping like hell the next album would actually work.

[Ollie9]

I completely support Miss Ross’s deal with RCA, it was the smartest thing she could have done. They gave her financial security and that’s more important than anything. And she may have felt that because of her input on the chic album, That she would be able to helm her own productions. In my opinion, there was only one true commercially viable album at RCA and that was swept away. I’m guessing that a lot of people bought the first album, played it once or twice and never touched it again. It was the follow up to a very exciting album and had the biggest song of her career on it plus two middling top 10 singles, still, considering the situation, It was a letdown - even with its platinum status, it was positioned to do much better if it was a stronger album. At the time, everyone I knew thought that silk electric and Ross 83 were major disappointments. Swept Away did well on the strength of its own strength - overcoming the severe handicap of following two or, arguably, three disappointing releases. Eaten had some possibilities, and the last album was just a disaster with nothing even having a glimmer of hope Of getting adds.

At the time, I felt the only viable single on ross 83 was up front because it sounded what was on the radio at the time. My personal favorite, that’s how you start over, might have it because occasionally a quality track like that, without the usual top 40 format sound, breaks through and I think this one had a decent chance of that because of its multiformat possibilities. However, I would not have bet money on it becoming a hit single.
at the time, I thought you do it was a snore, people that I knew that bought the album usually use that song as an example of why they hated it so much. In retrospect, let’s say in the last 10 years, I have begun to think that it might have had a chance, but only a chance. There’s no sure fire hit on this album for sure, and I still think the wisest thing to do would have been to release up front first - After re-recording it in a slightly lower key because she’s too screechy at the end and I can’t imagine too many people hearing that on the radio and thinking I wanna listen to diana ross straining to those high notes. Pieces of ice and let’s go up both had major major major exposure and didn’t get any interest whatsoever. I don’t think anything, including payola, could’ve put let’s go up even close to the top 50. If it were up to me, and it never is, I probably would have done up front, that’s how you start over And consulted the psychic friends network for guidance for the third single release while hoping like hell the next album would actually work.

Good post lol...In my own personal experience of the album, “Up Front” is usually named as the culprit by those for whom ross 83 does little for.
Similar to you with “You Do It”, i have come to appreciate the song far more with the passing of the years.
ross 83 was up against it from the off. Following to dud albums meant record buyers were probably a lot less tolerant in accepting a change in musical direction from Diana as might have previously been.


,

[RanRan79]

I completely support Miss Ross’s deal with RCA, it was the smartest thing she could have done. They gave her financial security and that’s more important than anything. And she may have felt that because of her input on the chic album, That she would be able to helm her own productions. In my opinion, there was only one true commercially viable album at RCA and that was swept away. I’m guessing that a lot of people bought the first album, played it once or twice and never touched it again. It was the follow up to a very exciting album and had the biggest song of her career on it plus two middling top 10 singles, still, considering the situation, It was a letdown - even with its platinum status, it was positioned to do much better if it was a stronger album. At the time, everyone I knew thought that silk electric and Ross 83 were major disappointments. Swept Away did well on the strength of its own strength - overcoming the severe handicap of following two or, arguably, three disappointing releases. Eaten had some possibilities, and the last album was just a disaster with nothing even having a glimmer of hope Of getting adds.

At the time, I felt the only viable single on ross 83 was up front because it sounded what was on the radio at the time. My personal favorite, that’s how you start over, might have it because occasionally a quality track like that, without the usual top 40 format sound, breaks through and I think this one had a decent chance of that because of its multiformat possibilities. However, I would not have bet money on it becoming a hit single.
at the time, I thought you do it was a snore, people that I knew that bought the album usually use that song as an example of why they hated it so much. In retrospect, let’s say in the last 10 years, I have begun to think that it might have had a chance, but only a chance. There’s no sure fire hit on this album for sure, and I still think the wisest thing to do would have been to release up front first - After re-recording it in a slightly lower key because she’s too screechy at the end and I can’t imagine too many people hearing that on the radio and thinking I wanna listen to diana ross straining to those high notes. Pieces of ice and let’s go up both had major major major exposure and didn’t get any interest whatsoever. I don’t think anything, including payola, could’ve put let’s go up even close to the top 50. If it were up to me, and it never is, I probably would have done up front, that’s how you start over And consulted the psychic friends network for guidance for the third single release while hoping like hell the next album would actually work.

Oh yeah, the deal was great for Ross. She'd have been a fool not to accept that kind of money, especially considering how much money she actually had working for Motown. I do wonder if she grew a little "lazy" [[yup, I said it again) because she had managed herself such a windfall. Just so many possibilities for her continued legacy and it all kind of...stalls.

I agree about Swept Away. The debut RCA album was a success on the strength of her coming off some of her biggest stuff ever, along with the curiosity about her next phase at RCA, and the new image on the cover of the album. Swept Away had three hits on it, one a big hit, another a major hit. She looked great on the cover and there was good song choice for most of it.

[Ollie9]

Oh yeah, the deal was great for Ross. She'd have been a fool not to accept that kind of money, especially considering how much money she actually had working for Motown. I do wonder if she grew a little "lazy" [[yup, I said it again) because she had managed herself such a windfall. Just so many possibilities for her continued legacy and it all kind of...stalls.

I agree about Swept Away. The debut RCA album was a success on the strength of her coming off some of her biggest stuff ever, along with the curiosity about her next phase at RCA, and the new image on the cover of the album. Swept Away had three hits on it, one a big hit, another a major hit. She looked great on the cover and there was good song choice for most of it.

I much prefer ross 83 to Swept Away. “Rescue Me and “We Are The Children” being the two prime reasons. The only really memorable songs imo are “Missing You”, “Swept Away” and “Telephone”. “All Of You” is ok, but sounds like it should be on another album.
four out of ten from me.

[sup_fan]

Swept Away is very uneven IMO. Some very commercial songs - Swept, all of you, Touch by touch, missing you. then some crap - children, telephone. then some whispy singing on Forever Young, as if it was a hint or prelude to the terrible breathy whimpy whispy singing she would do on EA. then an oddball with Crazy.

[Boogiedown]

I'm thinking , what albums aren't uneven?? Very few would I consider the total package. Even Marvin Gaye's WHATS GOING ON is mostly filler [[imo) and Stevie's "SONGS IN THE KEY..." could've been whittled jnto a single LP just fine [[and you can keep that throwaway bonus EP!:p)

I always understood that an album was a bunch of padded material wrapped around a spotlight piece or two that would be the singles. If you got three decent songs on an album of eight ....that was really something.

One trick was to wait for the artists every third of fourth release when the primetime stuff got reoffered as a greatest hits package. That included The Jackson Five and Diana Ross.


[rereading your post , I'm addressing uneven from a different angle , Sup)

[TheMotownManiac]

Good post lol...In my own personal experience of the album, “Up Front” is usually named as the culprit by those for whom ross 83 does little for.
Similar to you with “You Do It”, i have come to appreciate the song far more with the passing of the years.
ross 83 was up against it from the off. Following to dud albums meant record buyers were probably a lot less tolerant in accepting a change in musical direction from Diana as might have previously been.





I believe with all my heart and soul that the general public doesn’t give a shit about musical directions of its artists. She went from surrender, A modestly successful album, to a Billie Holiday tribute that went to number one, To a smash album filled with ballads with forays into an Uber successful disco album and then the chic album, these were all new musical directions. For the record buying public at large buys what it likes to hear and I don’t think they care who’s doing it as long as it pushes that button in their head that says I love that! Ross 83, I honestly didn’t know one person, who could stand playing it at that all back in the day. Decades later, music tastes have changed a great deal and this doesn’t sound so bland and odd like it did back in the day. Now people like it, but everyone pretty much hated it back then and I actually think pieces of ice and let’s go up on Central Park hurt sales more than helped it. Upfront, hardly a stellar track, it did sound modern and fresh in a pop radio kind of way and I remember I think it was people magazine review of the album stating that they couldn’t understand why upfront that was not the first single because it was the only song that was radio friendly. I do think it would’ve been played, if radio stations did not have egg on their face for adding pieces of ice before it.
,

rats I answered in the wrong box again. Please see above.

[Albator]

I certainly didn’t hate Ross back then, it was my second Diana album and made me a fan forever after the disapointing experience of listening Silk.
Ross is too short but so were the Boss and diana.

[Ollie9]

To state everybody hated it back then is a very sweeping statement that is simply not true. ross 83 was a relief to me following two dismal albums. I myself remember playing it for friends who liked a few of the songs. It also received some very positive reviews from the music press.
Most of Diana’s Motown albums were soulful efforts be they pop/soul, jazz, funk or disco. I don’t think the diversity in musical direction was as obvious as when compared to her rca albums.
Musical identity and direction go hand in hand with artistic vision. Joe public for the most part likes to know what it’s getting. Stray to far and to often from the musical genre that made you famous and you risk alienating your fan base forever.

[sup_fan]

I'm thinking , what albums aren't uneven?? Very few would I consider the total package. Even Marvin Gaye's WHATS GOING ON is mostly filler [[imo) and Stevie's "SONGS IN THE KEY..." could've been whittled jnto a single LP just fine [[and you can keep that throwaway bonus EP!:p)

I always understood that an album was a bunch of padded material wrapped around a spotlight piece or two that would be the singles. If you got three decent songs on an album of eight ....that was really something.

One trick was to wait for the artists every third of fourth release when the primetime stuff got reoffered as a greatest hits package. That included The Jackson Five and Diana Ross.


[rereading your post , I'm addressing uneven from a different angle , Sup)

Uneven can mean a couple of things

1. too many producers and styles - like Sup 75 or Swept away,
2. too many weak songs - like Let the sunshine in, everything is everything, Country western & pop
3. both weak songs and too many cooks in the kitchen - Red Hot Rhythm and Blues, Ross 78
4. some moments that are strong but also a significant amount of lesser tracks - Ross 83, Why Do fools, Reflections

of course these are just my opinions on the albums

[nomis]

I like "Up Front"...i'll get my coat...

[khansperac]

Uneven can mean a couple of things

4. some moments that are strong but also a significant amount of lesser tracks - Ross 83, Why Do fools, Reflections


Significant amount of lesser tracks? Doesn’t Ross83 only have 8 songs lol. In your estimation, how many “lesser” tracks are there? Of course you’re opinion is valid. Not discounting your feelings. I think it’s a solid album, and don’t have a problem with “Girls”, or “Upfront”. It was 1983 after all. I don’t listen to an album to see which songs are worthy of single release. I just listen for personal enjoyment. Of course some may be better than others. But this is a solid album.

[thommg]

I was worried about what Diana would release after Silk Electric, which I thought was a disaster. The production on that recording was horrendous. I still think someone should take the original tapes and remix the entire thing into something you might be able to listen to. The only viable song on that, for me, was Love Lies. When Ross '83 was released, I bought it but not with any confidence - I mean the cover was like Silk Electric Redux. To my surprise, I really enjoyed it. I played it quite a lot, and still do. I prefer side one over side two - the Steely Dan stuff seemed better produced to me. One of my favorites was That's How You Start Over so I'm surprised at the number of people who aren't thrilled with it. Girls, to me, was another Work That Body - a track that I didn't hate but really didn't want to hear. I liked Let's Go Up and found it interesting that Helen Reddy also recorded that on her Imagination album in 1983. Didn't do much for her either.

[khansperac]

Not to derail, but am I the only one here who doesn’t hate Silk Electric? Perhaps we can discuss another time, another thread.

[daviddh]

Ross had several out takes...
Full moon
Sleep with me tonight
Maybe
Fight for it
I think you do it and that's how you start over are the best two tracks.
Upfront sounds like a Supremes reject from 1969.
For me ...in my playlist I combined swept away n Ross best tracks

[sup_fan]

Significant amount of lesser tracks? Doesn’t Ross83 only have 8 songs lol. In your estimation, how many “lesser” tracks are there? Of course you’re opinion is valid. Not discounting your feelings. I think it’s a solid album, and don’t have a problem with “Girls”, or “Upfront”. It was 1983 after all. I don’t listen to an album to see which songs are worthy of single release. I just listen for personal enjoyment. Of course some may be better than others. But this is a solid album.

That's how you start over - excellent backing track but frankly lazy and blah vocals from diana

pieces of ice - very atmospheric but WTF are the lyrics? lol

girls - i actually like this song but i do certainly recognize it's not a gem lol

Up Front - meh. the harder rock sound isn't my fav for diana.

You do it - catchy and fun but never really gets going. i appreciate that it's a mellow tune but i feel the song lacks any climax.

Love will make it right - again catchy, quite atmospheric. fits the mood of the lp nicely. but it too lacks and peaks.

love or loneliness - like you do it and that's how, this song never really peaks. and Diana's vocals are nice but not exciting

let's go up - quite a strong track and diana does seem to deliver here

If i had to change something i'd redo That's How into a bigger banging song. some really power. then You Do it and Love/Loneliness and Love will make it right can't all be so low key. IMO Love Will Make it is great low key. very cool and distant and icy. So give some pep to the other two

[daviddh]

Swept away
That's how you start over
Love will make it right
You do it
Pieces of ice
Missing you
Let's go up
Love or loniless
It's your move
All of you

[sup_fan]

again i think Ross 83 is a solid album. one of her more cohesive ones. I just think the heat needed to be turned up. at least in a couple spots. i like the cool, icy feel of the 80s synthesizer and realize a big "The Boss" gospelish approach isn't appropriate here. but it needed a bit more

[TheMotownManiac]

I certainly didn’t hate Ross back then, it was my second Diana album and made me a fan forever after the disapointing experience of listening Silk.
Ross is too short but so were the Boss and diana.


I used to wide of a generality: certainly not everyone hated it, just everyone I knew hated it. I’m glad you gave Miss Ross another chance after not liking the first album that you got of hers. My point isn’t if one album is good or bad because No one even knows quite good or bad it is, my point is that Ross’ albums were going in a downward spiral sales wise after the Chic LP and when swept away came out, they reversed the trend. Part of this is due to word of mouth on the album and people hearing the album and going out and buying their own copy. This happened with the Diana album - it went charging up the charts with no single at all because word of mouth on the album is so hot. Swept away was just so much more commercial for that point in time, it happens to be my favorite of the RCA albums.

look at Supremes Agogo, and HDH:HDH had two number one singles on it, but it sold nowhere near as well and even though it was released months after a gogo, a gogo was still on the charts for months after HDH dropped off. I don’t believe this is because of the album cover, promotion or the alignment of the stars as much as I do people heard cuts at parties or were told to listen to something by friends and they liked it and bought their own copy. Word of mouth on a current act is a big help to album sales. My experience was that word of month on Silk, Ross 83 and Eaten wasn’t good and they slipped. Red hot rhythm and blues was so horrible, that I really didn’t speak about it to anybody except my very very very closest friends, but I’m guessing the same thing occurred.

[johnjeb]

I enjoyed Ross 83 when it was released. I had a few favorites but never get an urge to play any of them now. About once a year I play each of her albums. That seems to satisfy me for her albums from the 80s and 90s. I guess I'm stuck in the 60s and 70s.

Maybe Ross 83 didn't attract buyers because that cover is damn scary!

[nomis]

Ross had several out takes...
Full moon
Sleep with me tonight
Maybe
Fight for it
I think you do it and that's how you start over are the best two tracks.
Upfront sounds like a Supremes reject from 1969.
For me ...in my playlist I combined swept away n Ross best tracks

I wonder why she has blocked unreleased rca masters..

[vgalindo]

Not to derail, but am I the only one here who doesn’t hate Silk Electric? Perhaps we can discuss another time, another thread.
I happen to really like the “ Silk Electric” album. I wore it out when it was first released.

[Albator]

I used to wide of a generality: certainly not everyone hated it, just everyone I knew hated it. I’m glad you gave Miss Ross another chance after not liking the first album that you got of hers. My point isn’t if one album is good or bad because No one even knows quite good or bad it is, my point is that Ross’ albums were going in a downward spiral sales wise after the Chic LP and when swept away came out, they reversed the trend. Part of this is due to word of mouth on the album and people hearing the album and going out and buying their own copy. This happened with the Diana album - it went charging up the charts with no single at all because word of mouth on the album is so hot. Swept away was just so much more commercial for that point in time, it happens to be my favorite of the RCA albums.

look at Supremes Agogo, and HDH:HDH had two number one singles on it, but it sold nowhere near as well and even though it was released months after a gogo, a gogo was still on the charts for months after HDH dropped off. I don’t believe this is because of the album cover, promotion or the alignment of the stars as much as I do people heard cuts at parties or were told to listen to something by friends and they liked it and bought their own copy. Word of mouth on a current act is a big help to album sales. My experience was that word of month on Silk, Ross 83 and Eaten wasn’t good and they slipped. Red hot rhythm and blues was so horrible, that I really didn’t speak about it to anybody except my very very very closest friends, but I’m guessing the same thing occurred.
At that time, I was 15 years old and I didn't even know it who she was, I didn't know it was her singing "Upside Down". I had seen "muscles" on TV and heard it quite often on the radio, and I was crazy for the song and this beautiful singer. This was much more important to me than the music in fact. "Silk" disappointment was because, with that Warhol cover and "muscles" you don't expect MOR songs and weak voice.
I was over with her, but during next summer, I saw newspaper about her CP concerts and than, the "Pieces of ice" clip and that stunning new cover.
This time, it was the sound I expected from her and I was very satisfied with the album.
To me, It has aged very well, and it's cohesive unlike "Swept".


This review sums it all : https://dianarossproject.wordpress.com/2012/05/13/ross-1983/

[nomis]

My teacher in high school used the ross83 lp cover in a class about photography and art direction he loved that artwork

[Ollie9]

Swept away
That's how you start over
Love will make it right
You do it
Pieces of ice
Missing you
Let's go up
Love or loniless
It's your move
All of you

That is an extremely good wish list album david.

[Ollie9]

I wonder why she has blocked unreleased rca masters..

To prove she can. :eek:

[Ollie9]

My teacher in high school used the ross83 lp cover in a class about photography and art direction he loved that artwork

There are some beautiful pics of Diana from that photo shoot. Not sure they used the best one for the cover though. My fave is the one where she is sitting with her knees drawn up.

[nomis]

To prove she can. :eek:

Ha ha too funny Ollie 🤪

[nomis]

There are some beautiful pics of Diana from that photo shoot. Not sure they used the best one for the cover though. My fave is the one where she is sitting with her knees drawn up.
The camera loves her I love rupaul's quote that diana lp covers where an event in themselves what would she look like next ?..I remember getting hooked on her in 1986 and going to virgin megastore and seeing all the back catalog they stocked and falling in love.. especially with 25th anniversary cover...not long after I got all the great hits lp not only was I entranced with the music I would open the gatefold sleeve and stare at the tiny lp pictures and save my pocket money to hunt them down in second hand stores on weekends..such happy memories 😁

[Bluebrock]

Not to derail, but am I the only one here who doesn’t hate Silk Electric? Perhaps we can discuss another time, another thread.

It does have it's admirers. Florence has often taken me to task for being less than kind about it! Vgalindo has also expressed his approval of it too.
It is in my bottom 5 Ms Ross albums, but it is good that some people appreciated it more than i ever could.

[Bluebrock]

To prove she can. :eek:

Ha ha. They are actually not that bad Ollie. Certainly better than Girls, Upfront and much of Fools and Silk Electric.
Between you, me and the gatepost it had something to do with paying royalties[[!) to certain songwriters and producers, but you did not hear that from me. Nudge nudge. Wink wink.

[lucky2012]

It does have it's admirers. Florence has often taken me to task for being less than kind about it! Vgalindo has also expressed his approval of it too.
It is in my bottom 5 Ms Ross albums, but it is good that some people appreciated it more than i ever could.

I love this forum for all the opinions and feelings everyone has about her music. You just know she's affected different people in different ways.

[Bluebrock]

I love this forum for all the opinions and feelings everyone has about her music. You just know she's affected different people in different ways.

I love this forum too. Ms Ross has meant so much to so many people in so many different ways. We do not always get along with each other as well as we perhaps should, but we are all here for the same reason. Long may it continue.

[Jaap]

There are some beautiful pics of Diana from that photo shoot. Not sure they used the best one for the cover though. My fave is the one where she is sitting with her knees drawn up.

I still have the "special les stars de la pop et du rock par les stars the las photo" [stars of pop and rock by the star photographers" issue of the French magazine Photo [[June 1987), which features a 6-page photo spread of pictures that Uwe Ommer took of Diana Ross, from the Ross 1983 and Central Park "jungle" photos, including the "nude" one. I'm still surprised that Ross agreed to have that one published.

18892

18893

[RanRan79]

I much prefer ross 83 to Swept Away. “Rescue Me and “We Are The Children” being the two prime reasons. The only really memorable songs imo are “Missing You”, “Swept Away” and “Telephone”. “All Of You” is ok, but sounds like it should be on another album.
four out of ten from me.

Aww man, "Rescue Me" was not the song for her. Anybody that had anything to do with that production should have told her "No. NO. NOOOOOO!":D The track is actually nice, but Diana didn't have the voice to pull that one off. The track would've needed to be a complete redo in order for it to work.

I also dislike "Nobody Makes Me Crazy". Sounds like a demo. But everything else is cool in my book. Aside from "Rescue" and "Nobody", the tracks go from okay to excellent.

[RanRan79]

While I can tolerate "Forever Young", it's a surprise [[or maybe not) that Diana didn't go for a gospel sound like how she probably would've recorded it at Motown. She sounds fine enough, but it seems like a perfect song for her to show off on.

[RanRan79]

Not to derail, but am I the only one here who doesn’t hate Silk Electric? Perhaps we can discuss another time, another thread.

No, I don't hate it. I'm just not surprised that it didn't take her musical legacy up a notch. And there's a lot different I would have done to it. But I think song for song, I probably do enjoy it more than Ross83.

[RanRan79]

I love this forum for all the opinions and feelings everyone has about her music. You just know she's affected different people in different ways.

Absolutely. If anything, as it relates to Diana, I've learned that just about everything she's ever recorded has given someone​ some pleasure, and continues to do so. I'd say that's great for her legacy.

[florence]

It does have it's admirers. Florence has often taken me to task for being less than kind about it!

I certainly disagree with you but would never take you to task - I respect your opinion.

Still In Love
In Your Arms
Love Lies

imo at least top 20 UK hits.

Other great tracks - Who, Anywhere You Run To.

And my personal least favourite track - Muscles!!!!

[Ollie9]

I still have the "special les stars de la pop et du rock par les stars the las photo" [stars of pop and rock by the star photographers" issue of the French magazine Photo [[June 1987), which features a 6-page photo spread of pictures that Uwe Ommer took of Diana Ross, from the Ross 1983 and Central Park "jungle" photos, including the "nude" one. I'm still surprised that Ross agreed to have that one published.

18892

18893

Thank you so much for posting this Jaap. I’m amazed that i never knew of this nude pic. I’m also surprised she allowed it published. Diana’s body was most certainly in great shape during that period. Perhaps they should have used the shot for the cover of the album. Can you imagine the amount of publicity it would have generated.

[Ollie9]

Aww man, "Rescue Me" was not the song for her. Anybody that had anything to do with that production should have told her "No. NO. NOOOOOO!":D The track is actually nice, but Diana didn't have the voice to pull that one off. The track would've needed to be a complete redo in order for it to work.

I also dislike "Nobody Makes Me Crazy". Sounds like a demo. But everything else is cool in my book. Aside from "Rescue" and "Nobody", the tracks go from okay to excellent.

I never thought I’d live to see the day when “We Are The Children Of The World” would be described as cool. :rolleyes:

[nomis]

I never thought I’d live to see the day when “We Are The Children Of The World” would be described as cool. :rolleyes:

We are the children is hellish..the fact she made a music video for it beggas belief

[Ollie9]

We are the children is hellish..the fact she made a music video for it beggas belief

It’s definitely not a Ross classic, though i’m sure someone will find it terrific lol. At least the kids appear to be having a good time. I’ve forgotten the reason why this video was made. Has anyone any knowledge.

[Circa 1824]

We are the children is hellish..the fact she made a music video for it beggas belief

I bought the Swept Away album in 1984. I played it often I am sure. But, I have zero memory of the album and Children of the World. I just played Children on YouTube. I do not remember the song at all. It was not good. I am always reluctant to go back into the RCA catalog. IMHO, it belongs to yesterday.

[Ollie9]

I bought the Swept Away album in 1984. I played it often I am sure. But, I have zero memory of the album and Children of the World. I just played Children on YouTube. I do not remember the song at all. It was not good. I am always reluctant to go back into the RCA catalog. IMHO, it belongs to yesterday.

Thats rather an odd comment to make on a Diana Ross/Supremes Forum lol. Why join the forum at all if your only interest is in the current music scene?. :confused:

[Circa 1824]

I have little interest in the current music scene. I am talking specifically about the RCA years being a void in my musical enjoyment.

[reese]

It’s definitely not a Ross classic, though i’m sure someone will find it terrific lol. At least the kids appear to be having a good time. I’ve forgotten the reason why this video was made. Has anyone any knowledge.

I don't remember an official video. But I remember the program EVENING MAGAZINE [[or PM MAGAZINE depending on your location) did a piece that featured Diana and a group of kids singing the song, juxtaposed with comments from the kids and adults about the joys of childhood. I remember it ending with Diana and the kids playing duck duck goose.

[reese]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fXH89I1OPE

[Albator]

It’s definitely not a Ross classic, though i’m sure someone will find it terrific lol. At least the kids appear to be having a good time. I’ve forgotten the reason why this video was made. Has anyone any knowledge.
It’s not worse than any Michael Jackson simple songs like « heal the world »

[Ollie9]

It’s not worse than any Michael Jackson simple songs like « heal the world »

Sorry Albator, but actually I think it is.

[Ollie9]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fXH89I1OPE

Thanks for posting reece. Diana’s persona has an almost childlike quality at times. It’s a really nice side of her personality.

[Bluebrock]

It’s not worse than any Michael Jackson simple songs like « heal the world »

Oh but it is. Much worse in my opinion.

[Ollie9]

Oh but it is. Much worse in my opinion.

What was she thinking!!.
It’s strange how “Missing You” never took off in the UK. It most certainly received a lot of radio airplay and was re-promoted twice. Perhaps Diana’s UK popularity being at a low had something to do with it. I remember a radio DJ mentioning that he was perplexed as to it’s slow movement on the pop charts.
I think had she performed the song on a popular UK television show it’s fate on British soil might have proved very different.

[Bluebrock]

What was she thinking!!.
It’s strange how “Missing You” never took off in the UK. It most certainly received a lot of radio airplay and was re-promoted twice. Perhaps Diana’s UK popularity being at a low had something to do with it. I remember a radio DJ mentioning that he was perplexed as to it’s slow movement on the pop charts.
I think had she performed the song on a popular UK television show it’s fate on British soil might have proved very different.

She wasn't very visual to UK audiences at this time. We had the occasional tour and newspaper/magazine interview, but she had 3 young daughters who quite rightly remained her no.1 priority.
Missing you could have been huge with better promotion.

[nomis]

She wasn't very visual to UK audiences at this time. We had the occasional tour and newspaper/magazine interview, but she had 3 young daughters who quite rightly remained her no.1 priority.
Missing you could have been huge with better promotion.

Missing you failing in the u.k. is perplexing as chain reaction in the u.s...

[Ollie9]

Missing you failing in the u.k. is perplexing as chain reaction in the u.s...

“Missing You” unlike “Chain Reaction” did not have the luxury of being played in the clubs.
As in the UK, the song was doing nothing across the pond until it received the shot in the arm boost of prime time tv exposure. Perhaps a Hi-NRG version was the answer. :)

[Jaap]

In the Netherlands, "Missing You" didn't even chart at all, probably because it was released so late after the album had been released [[sometime early 1985). The "Swept Away" album had done quite well in the Netherlands -- both "Touch by Touch" and "All of You" had been top 10 hits, and the "Swept Away" single had been a minor hit. Releasing "Missing You" so late seems like an afterthought. Interestingly, "Missing You" was included on several 1985 compilation albums, in spite of not charting.

[florence]

What was she thinking!!.
It’s strange how “Missing You” never took off in the UK. It most certainly received a lot of radio airplay and was re-promoted twice. Perhaps Diana’s UK popularity being at a low had something to do with it. I remember a radio DJ mentioning that he was perplexed as to it’s slow movement on the pop charts.
I think had she performed the song on a popular UK television show it’s fate on British soil might have proved very different.



Each to their own, of course - give me Forever Young over Missing You any day - in fact I think a single Forever Young Diana Ross featuring Eric Clapton would have been big in the UK.

If the UK sales were known they would be probably be higher than you might expect given that it was just outside the top 75 for 8 weeks and was probably knocking about the top 200 nfor 3/4 months.

I really find it weird though - had many of Diana's singles been given the same promotion as Missing You they would have been big but it beggars belief that if they really wanted to a major UK record company couldn't break a record into the top 75 - all I'll say is it's strange.

[Ollie9]

Each to their own, of course - give me Forever Young over Missing You any day - in fact I think a single Forever Young Diana Ross featuring Eric Clapton would have been big in the UK.

If the UK sales were known they would be probably be higher than you might expect given that it was just outside the top 75 for 8 weeks and was probably knocking about the top 200 nfor 3/4 months.

I really find it weird though - had many of Diana's singles been given the same promotion as Missing You they would have been big but it beggars belief that if they really wanted to a major UK record company couldn't break a record into the top 75 - all I'll say is it's strange.

You may well be right about “Forever Young” florence. I still believe that owing to Diana’s low profile in the UK at the time, the single would have needed tv as well as radio exposure.
I remember hearing “Missing You” played regularly on the radio at the time of its release.It brings to mind the words of the old adage ‘You can lead a horse to water’.

[Albator]

It seems, Diana wasn't promoted at all in Europe while at RCA. I don't think she made any TV appearances at all. She was on french TV for two TV shows, but she lived in Paris at that time and she was there to talk about Josephine Baker.
She toured in 1982, 1985 and 89.
She didn't tour Japan at all during the time of her RCA contract.

In those days, tv and video were of major importances. Sade, Cindy Lauper, Withney Houston, Tina Turner, Donna Summer, even Cher and Madonna did appearances to promote their new albums, mostly lip synching.

But Diana and Barbra Streisand, nothing

[daviddh]

Just for the record
I did like Silk Electric.
Who
Love lies
Anywhere you run to
Not a huge fav but better than WDFFIL.
Muscles was good size hit for her and alot of my friends who were not Ross fans liked it.

[nomis]

It seems, Diana wasn't promoted at all in Europe wihile at RCA. I don't think she made any TV appearances at all. She was on french TV for two TV shows, but she lived in Paris at that time and she was there to talk about Josephine Baker.
She toured in 1982, 1985 and 89.
She didn't tour Japan at all during the time of her RCA contract.

In those days, tv and video were of major importances. Sade, Cindy Lauper, Withney Houston, Tina Turner, Donna Summer, even Cher and Madonna did appearances to promote their new albums, mostly lip synching.

But Diana and Barbra Streisand, nothing

I think she was relying on the music videos to promote her release's across europe..she only started appearing on u.k. shows promoting singles from " force " onwards..

[Bluebrock]

I think she was relying on the music videos to promote her release's across europe..she only started appearing on u.k. shows promoting singles from " force " onwards..
She did "This House 'from Workin' Overtime on the Wogan show. It was my first official engagement with her, and it sure as hell was eventful!

[nomis]

She did "This House 'from Workin' Overtime on the Wogan show. It was my first official engagement with her, and it sure as hell was eventful!

I never knew that..where you with her for the track date at brixton academy ? ..it's been said on here before.. bluebrock you really should write a book

[Jaap]

It seems, Diana wasn't promoted at all in Europe while at RCA.

Diana Ross came to promote Why Do Fools Fall In Love, at least in the Netherlands. She didn't perform but showed the music video to show those Europeans what "America was like"! I'm sure it helped to make the single "Why Do Fools Fall In Love" Diana's only solo number one in the Netherlands. I vividly remember watching this on tv 40 years ago!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lz27ZVBq5wY&t=19s

[florence]

No question music videos had a massive influence.

Why Do Fools Fall In Love was running out of steam in the UK when it eased up from 22-19 but it was enough for the video to be shown on Top Of The Pops. [[Thursday night)

The record's sales exploded on the Friday taking it up from 19-7 in the next chart.

It peaked at #4 selling 78k that week which was a very high sale for that position and was one of Diana's top 5 selling UK singles.

[Bluebrock]

Diana Ross came to promote Why Do Fools Fall In Love, at least in the Netherlands. She didn't perform but showed the music video to show those Europeans what "America was like"! I'm sure it helped to make the single "Why Do Fools Fall In Love" Diana's only solo number one in the Netherlands. I vividly remember watching this on tv 40 years ago!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lz27ZVBq5wY&t=19s

She also came to the UK during the same promotional visit and appeared on the top rated chatshow Parkinson.

[Bluebrock]

No question music videos had a massive influence.

Why Do Fools Fall In Love was running out of steam in the UK when it eased up from 22-19 but it was enough for the video to be shown on Top Of The Pops. [[Thursday night)

The record's sales exploded on the Friday taking it up from 19-7 in the next chart.

It peaked at #4 selling 78k that week which was a very high sale for that position and was one of Diana's top 5 selling UK singles.

I didn't realise the record took such a big leap following the airing of the video.
Video's were so important at this time and became even more so as the decade progressed.

[Bluebrock]

I never knew that..where you with her for the track date at brixton academy ? ..it's been said on here before.. bluebrock you really should write a book

It is 80% completed and has been for around 4 years. It will need fine tuning if it does go to publication.
My main reason i am hesitating is because if i am to tell the truth it will upset some people. I wanted it to be a warts and all memoir where nothing would be off limits, but there are certain people who are just too dear to me to upset. There are certain ones whom it would be an honour and privilege to expose their appalling behaviour to the world, and it is a case of finding a happy medium.
Also the advance i would receive is less than my first offer from 5 years ago which indicates demand is not quite what it once was. The financial side of it is not important. I need never work another day in my life and not compromise my standard of living one iota.
I really do not know how to proceed. I am happy and healthy again and content with my life. We shall see.
To answer your other question i was not at Brixton due to a prior engagement.
Thank you for your interest.

[sup_fan]

Just for the record
I did like Silk Electric.
Who
Love lies
Anywhere you run to
Not a huge fav but better than WDFFIL.
Muscles was good size hit for her and alot of my friends who were not Ross fans liked it.

i like those tracks on SE too. overall i'd rate WDFFIL a bit higher than SE solely because of the excessive echo she used on Silk. it's as if they moved the recording studio to the bottom of a well. but it isn't as bad on some tracks. Wonder if she had just found the "echo" button on the engineering controls and was like a kid with a new toy lol

[Albator]

Diana Ross came to promote Why Do Fools Fall In Love, at least in the Netherlands. She didn't perform but showed the music video to show those Europeans what "America was like"! I'm sure it helped to make the single "Why Do Fools Fall In Love" Diana's only solo number one in the Netherlands. I vividly remember watching this on tv 40 years ago!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lz27ZVBq5wY&t=19sYes, this one plus 3 tv appearances over two days in France in 84 [[she didn't perform but clips of CP and Pieces of ice were presented). News reports for her 85 tour in France, Netherland, Norway, Danemark and 3 more from Italy.
Maybe I miss something but I don't think so.

[nomis]

It is 80% completed and has been for around 4 years. It will need fine tuning if it does go to publication.
My main reason i am hesitating is because if i am to tell the truth it will upset some people. I wanted it to be a warts and all memoir where nothing would be off limits, but there are certain people who are just too dear to me to upset. There are certain ones whom it would be an honour and privilege to expose their appalling behaviour to the world, and it is a case of finding a happy medium.
Also the advance i would receive is less than my first offer from 5 years ago which indicates demand is not quite what it once was. The financial side of it is not important. I need never work another day in my life and not compromise my standard of living one iota.
I really do not know how to proceed. I am happy and healthy again and content with my life. We shall see.
To answer your other question i was not at Brixton due to a prior engagement.
Thank you for your interest.

I look forward to reading it..I will one day write about my DJ career..i feel the same about hurting those dear to me..but I want to be as honest as I can ..I certainly wont hold back on those Ive seen exhibit disgusting behaviour thou..

[sup_fan]

i think if you focus on professional situations [[as opposed to personal) and if you're even handed with the content, i think you both should be ok. even if there are things that are not flattering to individuals. be sure to account for whatever good things a person offered up along with the bad [[assuming there are both lol).

Dreamgirl and CHMR took on the more sensational tone of the 80s. but then when Randy did his later book on Diana, it was much more even. of course there were situations still that weren't flattering to Diana. she's human and has made mistakes. but it also showed a much more kind image of her too.

[nomis]

i think if you focus on professional situations [[as opposed to personal) and if you're even handed with the content, i think you both should be ok. even if there are things that are not flattering to individuals. be sure to account for whatever good things a person offered up along with the bad [[assuming there are both lol).

Dreamgirl and CHMR took on the more sensational tone of the 80s. but then when Randy did his later book on Diana, it was much more even. of course there were situations still that weren't flattering to Diana. she's human and has made mistakes. but it also showed a much more kind image of her too.

Sup Fan- im so glad Randy wrote the third biography..some close to Ross had straightened him out on a few situations and he was able to gather a new perspective on some things..I also think he had matured personally.. CHMR as brilliant as it is - in some sections has a pettiness in parts which does a disservice to him, and the key players he writes about..the best part for me of his last tome is the final 24 hrs of Flo as a Supreme and the events of her birthday..all new information that he didnt have for his two previous works..

[sup_fan]

i agree about the newest book. some really wonderful additional stories of events and details of things happening.

my favorite part though is the appendix with the details on every album!! i've read that again and again!

[nomis]

i agree about the newest book. some really wonderful additional stories of events and details of things happening.

my favorite part though is the appendix with the details on every album!! i've read that again and again!

I found that fascinating as well Sup you have a great flair for details as your posts show..in 1993 UK Magazine "Record Collector" had a two part article celebrating Forever/One Woman and discussing what was in the vaults.. I read it again and again years later its pretty much all been released but at the time in the pre internet pre hip o select and before this forum details of the Ross & Supremes unreleased catalog was very very hard to find anything about it..I still have those two articles in my scrapbook

[lucky2012]

Swept away
That's how you start over
Love will make it right
You do it
Pieces of ice
Missing you
Let's go up
Love or loniless
It's your move
All of you

I agree with Ollie9:
That is an extremely good wish list album david.
I see you combined Ross'83 with Swept Away.

Since Silk Electric is my least favorite RCA album [to say the very least!], I combined Ross '83 with the few SE tracks I could even listen to:

Let's Go Up
That's How You Start Over
Love or Loneliness
Love Will Make It Right
You Do It

Muscles
Pieces of Ice
Love Lies
Still In Love
In Your Arms

I left Swept Away pretty much intact, but I added Up Front and left off Rescue Me and We Are The Children of the World.

Missing You
Touch By Touch
Swept Away
All Of You

Telephone
Nobody Makes Me Crazy [[Like You Do)
It's Your Move
Up Front
Forever Young

[reese]

i agree about the newest book. some really wonderful additional stories of events and details of things happening.

my favorite part though is the appendix with the details on every album!! i've read that again and again!

I totally agree. When I first received the book, I was so intrigued by the info in the discography that I ended up reading that section first. And I often go back to it as I find it so interesting.

[RanRan79]

I never thought I’d live to see the day when “We Are The Children Of The World” would be described as cool. :rolleyes:

It's very 80s pop, which I love. Sounds like it should've been the theme to some 80s movie about a group of kids, like The Goonies, or a John Hughes film. Now this is not what I would've wanted from Diana, even as an album cut. But on it's own, I do enjoy the song. It's that 80s pop track that really gets me.

[PeaceNHarmony]

i think if you focus on professional situations [[as opposed to personal) and if you're even handed with the content, i think you both should be ok. even if there are things that are not flattering to individuals. be sure to account for whatever good things a person offered up along with the bad [[assuming there are both lol).

Dreamgirl and CHMR took on the more sensational tone of the 80s. but then when Randy did his later book on Diana, it was much more even. of course there were situations still that weren't flattering to Diana. she's human and has made mistakes. but it also showed a much more kind image of her too.Speaking of 'Dreamgirl', I did a re-read after Mary's passing as a bit of a memorial to her; I was disappointed at just how much of the book is spent in denigrating others as opposed to discussing her own experiences. I know there are those who love the book; this is just my recent reaction.

[nomis]

Speaking of 'Dreamgirl', I did a re-read after Mary's passing as a bit of a memorial to her; I was disappointed at just how much of the book is spent in denigrating others as opposed to discussing her own experiences. I know there are those who love the book; this is just my recent reaction.

I must re read "dream girl " haven't picked it up in a long time it's annoying I have my stuff in storage and I cant just dip into books which I like to do...I much prefer " supreme faith " thou..I don't know why I find her battle with Motown to keep the supremes afloat and her relationship with pedro gripping.... I have it on audiobook cassette as well and it's nice to have Mary reading it..I'm surprised she didn't do an audiobook for "dream girl " thou.. given it's massive popularity

[Bluebrock]

Speaking of 'Dreamgirl', I did a re-read after Mary's passing as a bit of a memorial to her; I was disappointed at just how much of the book is spent in denigrating others as opposed to discussing her own experiences. I know there are those who love the book; this is just my recent reaction.
I haven't picked it up again since it was first published, but i recall being very disappointed with the way she criticised so many of her former friends, colleagues and associates. It was most ungracious of her. I kind of cut myself off from her from that point onwards. I would not want my book to turn out that way, but some of those sales figures would be nice!

[Ollie9]

I haven't picked it up again since it was first published, but i recall being very disappointed with the way she criticised so many of her former friends, colleagues and associates. It was most ungracious of her. I kind of cut myself off from her from that point onwards. I would not want my book to turn out that way, but some of those sales figures would be nice!

I do wonder if Mary was not encouraged to spice things up for those all important sales figures. She admitted herself that her memory of events was often a little hazy.
I understand the book contained points of view that many Ross fans would have difficulty in accepting, preferring to believe Mary was either lying or exaggerating. At the end of the day it was her personal perspective. . A Flo or/and Cindy book would have balanced things up.

[RanRan79]

I do wonder if Mary was not encouraged to spice things up for those all important sales figures. She admitted herself that her memory of events was often a little hazy.
I understand the book contained points of view that many Ross fans would have difficulty in accepting, preferring to believe Mary was either lying or exaggerating. At the end of the day it was her personal perspective. . A Flo or/and Cindy book would have balanced things up.

I'm trying to figure out who are all these people Mary slammed in Dreamgirl. She did not paint the most flattering picture of Diana, and to some extent Berry, although she never failed to compliment Diana's talent and work ethic. She didn't paint the most flattering picture of Flo after a certain point either, but she also managed to make her a sympathetic "character", so everything kind of balanced out where Flo was concerned. Am I missing something? I've read that book a billion times and I'm hard pressed to remember all the horrible Marvelettes and Vandellas and Temptations and Tops and Marvin and Stevie and Miracle stories that apparently line every other page.:rolleyes:

I don't know that a Flo autobio would've been any less criticized, or considered more balanced if she decided to "dish" on her experience with Diana Ross. Her words in the PB bio do paint a more balanced picture of her view of Diana as opposed to the way some fans and sympathizers want to believe she felt, which was not that Diana was a total bitch, but that she did have her moments. I think for those who worship at the feet of Ross [[not to be confused with those of us who love the hell out of the lady's music but refuse to exalt her to deity level) any criticism beyond a sentence or two is going to amount to a full on attack. Cindy's book might have escaped that. Flo's book would've sat right alongside Mary's in the "trash bin" of some fans' book sections...if they kept the books at all.

[Ollie9]

I'm trying to figure out who are all these people Mary slammed in Dreamgirl. She did not paint the most flattering picture of Diana, and to some extent Berry, although she never failed to compliment Diana's talent and work ethic. She didn't paint the most flattering picture of Flo after a certain point either, but she also managed to make her a sympathetic "character", so everything kind of balanced out where Flo was concerned. Am I missing something? I've read that book a billion times and I'm hard pressed to remember all the horrible Marvelettes and Vandellas and Temptations and Tops and Marvin and Stevie and Miracle stories that apparently line every other page.:rolleyes:

I don't know that a Flo autobio would've been any less criticized, or considered more balanced if she decided to "dish" on her experience with Diana Ross. Her words in the PB bio do paint a more balanced picture of her view of Diana as opposed to the way some fans and sympathizers want to believe she felt, which was not that Diana was a total bitch, but that she did have her moments. I think for those who worship at the feet of Ross [[not to be confused with those of us who love the hell out of the lady's music but refuse to exalt her to deity level) any criticism beyond a sentence or two is going to amount to a full on attack. Cindy's book might have escaped that. Flo's book would've sat right alongside Mary's in the "trash bin" of some fans' book sections...if they kept the books at all.

Good points Ran. I personally haven’t read the book since it was published, but really don’t remember Mary being highly critical of people she had worked with in the music industry. I have actually met people in the industry who have told me Diana was a total bitch. Like Mary’s book and anything else in life, it all comes down to personal experience.

[sup_fan]

I'm trying to figure out who are all these people Mary slammed in Dreamgirl. She did not paint the most flattering picture of Diana, and to some extent Berry, although she never failed to compliment Diana's talent and work ethic. She didn't paint the most flattering picture of Flo after a certain point either, but she also managed to make her a sympathetic "character", so everything kind of balanced out where Flo was concerned. Am I missing something? I've read that book a billion times and I'm hard pressed to remember all the horrible Marvelettes and Vandellas and Temptations and Tops and Marvin and Stevie and Miracle stories that apparently line every other page.:rolleyes:

I don't know that a Flo autobio would've been any less criticized, or considered more balanced if she decided to "dish" on her experience with Diana Ross. Her words in the PB bio do paint a more balanced picture of her view of Diana as opposed to the way some fans and sympathizers want to believe she felt, which was not that Diana was a total bitch, but that she did have her moments. I think for those who worship at the feet of Ross [[not to be confused with those of us who love the hell out of the lady's music but refuse to exalt her to deity level) any criticism beyond a sentence or two is going to amount to a full on attack. Cindy's book might have escaped that. Flo's book would've sat right alongside Mary's in the "trash bin" of some fans' book sections...if they kept the books at all.

at best, Dreamgirl has limited complimentary content towards Diana. and [[as to be expected) there's little to no recognition of Mary's own role in things. of course an author probably wouldn't list all of their own faults.

Some things have come to light about how both D and M tried to really help Flo and how D tried to push for some of Flo's solo songs and such. Of course those might be stories Mary didn't remember as they're from others.

and the biggest omission is her not including the story of how Diana helped her financially in the early 80s. I don't care if it "wasn't part of the timeline" of Dreamgirls. the entire Epilogue was post DRATS anyway. there were no plans or immediate contracts at the time of Dreamgirl for Sup Faith so it doesn't hold any water to say "i was saving that for the next book" Bullshit

[PeaceNHarmony]

I haven't picked it up again since it was first published, but i recall being very disappointed with the way she criticised so many of her former friends, colleagues and associates. It was most ungracious of her. I kind of cut myself off from her from that point onwards. I would not want my book to turn out that way, but some of those sales figures would be nice!As many have said in previous statements here, it's unlikely that, given the state of Mary's career before the book was published, there would have been any interest at all without major dirt-dishin', tea-spillin' and kiki-cake for dessert. Yet ... once Mary meets anyone who would play a part of her singing career virtually every episode of the book is a clap-back at someone in her orbit. Upon it's first publication Wilson's was [[perhaps) the first well-known Motown insider book so that, too, gave it cachet. In retrospect I'd say the book is a chatty, frequently mean-spirited quick read without a smidge of insight or personal reflection.

[Bluebrock]

at best, Dreamgirl has limited complimentary content towards Diana. and [[as to be expected) there's little to no recognition of Mary's own role in things. of course an author probably wouldn't list all of their own faults.

Some things have come to light about how both D and M tried to really help Flo and how D tried to push for some of Flo's solo songs and such. Of course those might be stories Mary didn't remember as they're from others.

and the biggest omission is her not including the story of how Diana helped her financially in the early 80s. I don't care if it "wasn't part of the timeline" of Dreamgirls. the entire Epilogue was post DRATS anyway. there were no plans or immediate contracts at the time of Dreamgirl for Sup Faith so it doesn't hold any water to say "i was saving that for the next book" Bullshit

Agreed. I seem to recall her criticising Jean, Lynda and even Susaye. Not just Diana.
Of course it was all written from her perspective and there is no way she would ever have got the book deal without making it lurid and spicy to some extent.
I am the first to admit to how difficult Ms Ross can be and i have occasionally discussed such behaviour on these pages despite certain people on here preferring to disregard that when it suits them.
I almost quit 2 days into the gig, but ironically it was one such outburst that was a major turning point in my relationship with her. I saw a sometimes vulnerable human being constantly in the spotlight.
Despite all her wealth and privilege it is not always easy being Diana Ross. The biting criticism [[some of it fully justified i might add) that was regularly aimed at her sometimes disgusted me. No one should have to put up with such behaviour - even a very needy and demanding diva such as Diana Ross. She is far more sensitive than you might think.

[sup_fan]

one thing i will agree with is that Dreamgirl didn't necessary kill DR's pop career.

Dreamgirl was published in 86 although i don't know when in the year - spring, fall?

as for Diana's career, Eaten Alive [[single) was released Sept 1, 85 and EA album later that month. Chained Reaction was released in Nov 85.

Diana didn't have any releases in 86.

RHR&B tv special was aired in late May 87 and the album earlier that month.

Now if all of the music and single released from Red Hot were stellar productions, perhaps you could make something of the theory that Mary's book really impacted Diana's career. but the music wasn't that strong. I believe the tv show ratings were still quite good.

[Ollie9]

It’s been six weeks since we learned of the sudden and tragic death of M’s Mary Wilson. Is yet another debate about how awful Mary was about Diana in her first book really very appropriate or tasteful at this point in time.
I suspect there is one poster who must have been grinding his teeth regarding the out pouring of love and admiration Mary received following her sad passing. It’s interesting he chose to read Dream girls [[of all things) “as a bit of a memorial to her”. Enough said. :eek:

[sup_fan]

It’s been six weeks since we learned of the sudden and tragic death of M’s Mary Wilson. Is yet another debate about how awful Mary was about Diana in her first book really very appropriate or tasteful at this point in time.
I suspect there is one poster who must have been grinding his teeth regarding the out pouring of love and admiration Mary received following her sad passing. It’s interesting he chose to read Dream girls [[of all things) “as a bit of a memorial to her”. Enough said. :eek:

i think we're having a rather evenhanded discussion of Dreamgirls. we aren't getting into what motivated mary to write the book. just a pretty straightforward review of the content that was and was not in the published book

I don't personally know any of the women and i try to avoid personal attacks as such. in general i try to analyze or discuss career decisions and activities in respect to the career itself. all of the women, i'm sure, could be bitches and could be lovely. they're all human

what i won't do is martyr any of the Supremes. just because Flo died young does not make her a martyr. just because Barbara died after living [[from all accounts) a wonderfully private and satisfying life does not make her a martyr. Just because mary died unexpectedly does not make her a martyr either.

IMO our fan discussions on here have been quite civil in the past few months. even when people voice differing opinions. Mary's death does not erase her history - both the good and the bad. therefore so long as there aren't personal attacks on character, i feel no need to simply stop discussion on Sup history.

[reese]

one thing i will agree with is that Dreamgirl didn't necessary kill DR's pop career.

Dreamgirl was published in 86 although i don't know when in the year - spring, fall?

as for Diana's career, Eaten Alive [[single) was released Sept 1, 85 and EA album later that month. Chained Reaction was released in Nov 85.

Diana didn't have any releases in 86.

RHR&B tv special was aired in late May 87 and the album earlier that month.

Now if all of the music and single released from Red Hot were stellar productions, perhaps you could make something of the theory that Mary's book really impacted Diana's career. but the music wasn't that strong. I believe the tv show ratings were still quite good.

DREAMGIRLS was released in Fall 1986.

I will agree that it didn't kill Diana's US pop career. But it certainly didn't help and opened the door for many other Motown-related books, culminating in CALL HER MISS ROSS.

But in truth, Diana had started sliding as far as back as when she released SO CLOSE in 1983, and the subsequent unsuccessful singles from ROSS [1983].She bounced back with a vengeance with the SWEPT AWAY album but then the title track from EATEN ALIVE messed up that resurgence. Then she got married and started having children, putting the career on the backburner.

After DREAMGIRL, Diana's first single release was DIRTY LOOKS. Ironically, Mary's DON'T GET MAD GET EVEN was released around the same time. ENTERTAINMENT TONIGHT did a brief mention of both releases and of course, focused on the title of Mary's release.

[Ollie9]

I beg to differ. She has been accused of denigrating others, of being ungracious and mean spirited. If M’s Ross had passed away six weeks ago, I doubt i would be making posts denigrating her moral fibre. It just wouldn’t seem appropriate. It has noting to do with making someone out a martyr and more to do with what feels appropriate for the time.
Just my opinion....

[sup_fan]

DREAMGIRLS was released in Fall 1986.

I will agree that it didn't kill Diana's US pop career. But it certainly didn't help and opened the door for many other Motown-related books, culminating in CALL HER MISS ROSS.

But in truth, Diana had started sliding as far as back as when she released SO CLOSE in 1983, and the subsequent unsuccessful singles from ROSS [1983].She bounced back with a vengeance with the SWEPT AWAY album but then the title track from EATEN ALIVE messed up that resurgence. Then got married an started having children, putting the career on the backburner.

After DREAMGIRL, Diana's first single release was DIRTY LOOKS. Ironically, Mary's DON'T GET MAD GET EVEN was released around the same time. ENTERTAINMENT TONIGHT did a brief mention of both releases and of course, focused on the title of Mary's release.

see i would label Swept Away as a decent rebound but i wouldn't categorize it as "with a vengeance." the title track and All Of You only just made the top 20. as the pop culture world became more crowded and more lucrative, i would label that as only a so-so performance. Even with the Supremes in the 70s, I wouldn't call Nathan Jones a "smash" nor FJ either. and neither SA or AOY are really enduring hits like Upside Down, Missing You, Why Do Fools. even The Boss seems to have endured better than SA

Had the SA project been a massive hit, then maybe there could have been interest in her subsequent projects, assuming the music quality was there.

It sort of mirrors the Sups in the 70s. strong initial interest but then questionable productions and a lack of real innovation seems to have caused it to peter out in the public's eye.

[sup_fan]

I beg to differ. She has been accused of denigrating others, of being ungracious and mean spirited. If M’s Ross had passed away six weeks ago, I doubt i would be making posts denigrating her moral fibre. It just wouldn’t seem appropriate. It has noting to do with making someone out a martyr and more to do with what feels appropriate for the time.
Just my opinion....

and i certainly respect your opinion Ollie and am not trying to jump on you. I don't think it's disparaging to refer to Dreamgirl [[and Sup Faith) as taking a more negative tone towards Diana. Compare that to the much more even handed approach Mary took with the chapters in the gowns book. I haven't gone through DG to tally up the nice things and the bad things. the omission of Diana lending Mary money was a very unwise decision. But again these are all focusing on the book itself. we aren't getting into personal attacks on Mary about what prompted her to write the book, her motivations, etc. We're focusing really on what was put into print.

[Ollie9]

That’s fair enough sup. I certainly wasn't referring to any of your posts and always appreciate your point of view. I guess emotions are still pretty raw with it only being weeks since Marys sudden and unexpected death.
I will have to fish out my copy of DG as like Ran, i don’t recall it being excessively derogatory.

[sup_fan]

That’s fair enough sup. I certainly wasn't referring to any of your posts and always appreciate your point of view. I guess emotions are still pretty raw with it only being weeks since Marys sudden and unexpected death.
I will have to fish out my copy of DG as like Ran, i don’t recall it being excessively derogatory.

i think Sup Faith was more harsh towards Diana, at least more of the personality clashes with Mary. Mary acknowledges in Sup Faith that much of the problems of the original Sups probably were the result of their youth and super fast success and she says that motown was more responsible for the dissent within the group than Diana.

so given that was her POV while writing Sup Faith, i wish she had maybe approached some of the 60s stories with that in mind. I don't think Mary ever point blank blames Diana for the Flo problems or the problems within the group. But she does pretty clearly position that D & B were in cahoots and didn't give a damn about what she or Flo thought/wanted. That doesn't really align with the later POV in Sup Faith. So that's probably my biggest concern with how she covers the issues in the 60s.

Also she sort of goes out of her way to highlight every petty thing Diana did - demand a pizza in middle of night and then not wanting it, fights with girls on the tour buses, hogging the shared bathroom mirror, etc. And yet Flo, Mary or Cindy never ever had a single diva moment ever? these complaints come across as silly and childish. like why bitch about something a 17 year old did 30 years ago? whereas if Diana was more directly involved with the decision to force M and F in the background, or if she demanded song be taken from them, or things more directly related to the group.

that's sort of my reasoning as to why i see Dreamgirl as a slam

[reese]

see i would label Swept Away as a decent rebound but i wouldn't categorize it as "with a vengeance." the title track and All Of You only just made the top 20. as the pop culture world became more crowded and more lucrative, i would label that as only a so-so performance. Even with the Supremes in the 70s, I wouldn't call Nathan Jones a "smash" nor FJ either. and neither SA or AOY are really enduring hits like Upside Down, Missing You, Why Do Fools. even The Boss seems to have endured better than SA

Had the SA project been a massive hit, then maybe there could have been interest in her subsequent projects, assuming the music quality was there.

It sort of mirrors the Sups in the 70s. strong initial interest but then questionable productions and a lack of real innovation seems to have caused it to peter out in the public's eye.

Vengeance may be a strong word. But considering Diana had had four flop singles in a row, hitting the pop Top 20 three times in a row with ALL OF YOU, SWEPT AWAY, and MISSING YOU [Top 10] was a pretty good "rebound". :D

As I remember it, SWEPT AWAY went gold on just the strength of the first two hits alone. So the public really did take to the project. It is just surprising how badly MISSING YOU did on the pop chart initially.

[sup_fan]

yeah i get it ;) but i think we're just not seeing eye to eye in regards to flop or hit lol. So Close and Pieces of Ice did at least enter the Top 40. although i'm certainly not qualifying them as hits. I agree that SA and AOY are both stronger songs and performances and if they hadn't been competing against one another, i bet both would have charted higher. Maybe both could have just reached the Top 10. i doubt any higher though.

Still the entire SA project definitely was more successful than Ross 83. and i MIGHT be able to agree that it's an all-around better effort than Silk Electric. I don't know that I'd rate it higher than WDFFIL. SA does have some higher peaks but it also has some serious duds.

Why - i don't see this album as bad as others do although i agree for a major debut on a new label, it's lackluster. The only song i detest is the solo version of Endless Love. several of the tracks i think are very strong, like Mirror and Sweet Surrender. then there's a good amount of just "good" tracks plus a couple boring ones

SE - My biggest problem with this is the amount of echo she uses on every take and the lazy singing. I kinda like I Am Me. Fool For Your Love is a bit tough to listen to. but i'd take it on repeat versus Endless Love from the previous album.

SA - to me this album has higher highs but also more duds. Missing You is stunning and SA, Touch, it's your move and All of you are all very good. so that's 6 strong numbers. but i hate her vocals on Telephone [[so high pitched and grating) and also hate the breathyness of Forever Young. she sounds so weak that I'd be embarrassed to play this for anyone but a die-hard fan. We Are the Children it hideous with the kids choir - especially a kids choir that's out of tune. come on!!!! just because their young vocalists doesn't mean they can't sing!! So that's 3 crimes against humanity lol

[RanRan79]

Good points Ran. I personally haven’t read the book since it was published, but really don’t remember Mary being highly critical of people she had worked with in the music industry. I have actually met people in the industry who have told me Diana was a total bitch. Like Mary’s book and anything else in life, it all comes down to personal experience.

My issues with Mary's first book was the exaggerations, and sometimes the outright lies, of things that we now know for a fact were just not true, such as Mary's account of Flo's last Tonight Show appearance, or "People" being taken away from Flo at the Copa gig, being given to Diana, and Flo never singing it again. Those cannot be "mistakes". And the last one is so painful because Mary even sometimes sang the only solo verse in "People" long after the Copa gig. Those are big statements and I don't believe Mary was ever asked to address these kinds of things. She's gone now, so it has to be chucked into the "it is what it is" bin and move on.

The other problem I had was Mary writing about Diana's personal life. The Diana/Berry relationship had a huge impact on the Supremes that it was unavoidable. Likewise, the Flo/Tommy relationship affected the group as well, so Mary writing about these things was necessary in order to paint an accurate picture of what was going on behind the scenes and the changes within the group. But we didn't need to know about Diana and Brian Holland or Diana and the white dude she was calling collect. That wasn't Mary's business to tell. Those things alone, I've always felt Diana had a right to decide that Mary was a part of her past and she should stay there. I shudder to think of anyone putting my love life [[or lack thereof:p) in the pages of a book that isn't mine.

As far as Diana being a bitch of any sort, I say where there's smoke, there's fire. If enough people have enough stories about your bad behavior, all them folks aint lying. The sad thing is that the bitch stories dominate everything when in fact there are also a lot of stories out there about Diana's kindness and generosity. But it's a good case in point of why you should be careful how you treat people. People may not always remember the nice things you did, but they damn sure don't forget when you're nasty.

[RanRan79]

at best, Dreamgirl has limited complimentary content towards Diana. and [[as to be expected) there's little to no recognition of Mary's own role in things. of course an author probably wouldn't list all of their own faults.

Some things have come to light about how both D and M tried to really help Flo and how D tried to push for some of Flo's solo songs and such. Of course those might be stories Mary didn't remember as they're from others.

and the biggest omission is her not including the story of how Diana helped her financially in the early 80s. I don't care if it "wasn't part of the timeline" of Dreamgirls. the entire Epilogue was post DRATS anyway. there were no plans or immediate contracts at the time of Dreamgirl for Sup Faith so it doesn't hold any water to say "i was saving that for the next book" Bullshit

In her first book Mary did say both she and Diana tried to help Flo with the drinking, but people often skip past that. I do agree that with everything Mary decided to write about in the first book that she should've included Diana helping her when she was in a bind.

IMO a lot of what Mary wrote about Diana in the first book was a bunch of petty, young girl stuff. I think if Mary had written about herself in a similar fashion alongside Diana's antics, and even Flo's, that a lot of what was written about Diana could've come across as comical, but there was often a bitter bite to these things. And then there were times when Mary completely left herself out of the situation, like Diana and Brenda Holloway going at it about a can of hairspray. Mary writes that she [[and Flo) were embarrassed by Diana's behavior, but Brenda remembers Mary getting in it and ready to rumble. So where the story could've been written as comical youth antics among a group of future legends, it comes across as "here's a time when Diana was bitchy towards Brenda" when ultimately it wasn't important to the story of the group.

To Mary's credit she didn't go as far as she probably could've in either books. If ya'll think those books flew off the shelves as is, imagine had Mary decided to drop the revelation that Rhonda was Berry's daughter. She would've probably sold two copies for every one copy she actually sold. I think that alone shows she wasn't writing from a place of just wanting to do Diana in.

Diana, though, plays a part in this also. She could've come out and explained a lot of that stuff as a girl growing up, making mistakes, trying to find her place in a world, and in particular, in an industry full of so much talent and competitiveness. Instead she either went silent or blew the book off as something wholly negative, which caused people to continue to buy into the idea that Diana in 1986 was the same person as Diana 1963. Diana could've played Dreamgirl to her advantage, reminding people that [a] everyone has a past, and [b] she was only human.

For the longest time Mary controlled the narrative about the Supremes, and when others jumped in like JRT, and Lord help us all, Tall Tales Turner, and then some others, and all we got from Diana was Secrets Of A Sparrow Will Not Be Revealed, the legend of Diana The Bitch was allowed to fester.

[sup_fan]

My issues with Mary's first book was the exaggerations, and sometimes the outright lies, of things that we now know for a fact were just not true, such as Mary's account of Flo's last Tonight Show appearance, or "People" being taken away from Flo at the Copa gig, being given to Diana, and Flo never singing it again. Those cannot be "mistakes". And the last one is so painful because Mary even sometimes sang the only solo verse in "People" long after the Copa gig. Those are big statements and I don't believe Mary was ever asked to address these kinds of things. She's gone now, so it has to be chucked into the "it is what it is" bin and move on.

The other problem I had was Mary writing about Diana's personal life. The Diana/Berry relationship had a huge impact on the Supremes that it was unavoidable. Likewise, the Flo/Tommy relationship affected the group as well, so Mary writing about these things was necessary in order to paint an accurate picture of what was going on behind the scenes and the changes within the group. But we didn't need to know about Diana and Brian Holland or Diana and the white dude she was calling collect. That wasn't Mary's business to tell. Those things alone, I've always felt Diana had a right to decide that Mary was a part of her past and she should stay there. I shudder to think of anyone putting my love life [[or lack thereof:p) in the pages of a book that isn't mine.

As far as Diana being a bitch of any sort, I say where there's smoke, there's fire. If enough people have enough stories about your bad behavior, all them folks aint lying. The sad thing is that the bitch stories dominate everything when in fact there are also a lot of stories out there about Diana's kindness and generosity. But it's a good case in point of why you should be careful how you treat people. People may not always remember the nice things you did, but they damn sure don't forget when you're nasty.

all very well said Ran!!!!

[RanRan79]

It’s been six weeks since we learned of the sudden and tragic death of M’s Mary Wilson. Is yet another debate about how awful Mary was about Diana in her first book really very appropriate or tasteful at this point in time.
I suspect there is one poster who must have been grinding his teeth regarding the out pouring of love and admiration Mary received following her sad passing. It’s interesting he chose to read Dream girls [[of all things) “as a bit of a memorial to her”. Enough said. :eek:

Your second comment cracked me up because we all know it's true.

I do think we all have to tread carefully where Mary is concerned because the sadness is still raw. But we also don't want to squash organic conversations either. As long as one Supreme isn't used to stomp on or lift up the other, I think we'll be okay if we try to stick to "the facts".

Of course apparently Dreamgirl was introduced into the conversation for something other than good discussion. But again, no surprises there. I think we go a long way into continuing the good spirit around here by by passing the original agenda and doing what we do best: have good, clean ["clean":p], respectful conversations, even when the subject isn't as feel good as "We Are the Children Of the World".:cool:

Btw, Ollie I would encourage you to re-read Mary's books if you haven't read them in so long. Criticisms aside, they are excellent reads.

[sup_fan]

i think some of the problem is that sexism that people tend to apply to women. there's the old adage of "aggressive men are go-getters, aggressive women are bitches" or how men can sleep around but women are whores.

maybe that's more of the issue with Dreamgirl. everyone knows that a woman being portrayed in a more aggressive manner will be interpreted as a bitch. and then that just adds that perception to any and all things associated with that woman.

I found the early teen antics funny but feel they could have been positioned a bit different. I think if mary really had positioned these as funny/comical and just "kids being dumb" and included herself in some examples, it would have come across more even. one of the big take aways of the whole Supremes story is they were SO successful SO quickly and SO young. that's a theme i think most people would relate to and if the overall group dynamics were centered more around that POV, it might have been less of "diana was a bitch" positioning.

As for the inconsistencies, i agree that it erodes the veracity of the book. none of them are big enough to totally wipe out any relevance or believability. but it just makes it sloppy. Even though youtube wasn't around in 85, there were plenty of fan videos on circulating. She could have been more diligent with digging up the real stories.

[RanRan79]

DREAMGIRLS was released in Fall 1986.

I will agree that it didn't kill Diana's US pop career. But it certainly didn't help and opened the door for many other Motown-related books, culminating in CALL HER MISS ROSS.

But in truth, Diana had started sliding as far as back as when she released SO CLOSE in 1983, and the subsequent unsuccessful singles from ROSS [1983].She bounced back with a vengeance with the SWEPT AWAY album but then the title track from EATEN ALIVE messed up that resurgence. Then she got married and started having children, putting the career on the backburner.

After DREAMGIRL, Diana's first single release was DIRTY LOOKS. Ironically, Mary's DON'T GET MAD GET EVEN was released around the same time. ENTERTAINMENT TONIGHT did a brief mention of both releases and of course, focused on the title of Mary's release.

Agree 100 percent. Dreamgirl can't be used as a reason why Diana's career tanked. Had Dreamgirl come out right after the diana80 album had peaked and then she never had another hit, suddenly became a "has been", then maybe the book could've been used to illustrate a "why". But Dreamgirl happened when Diana was already in the middle of a lull and I maintain that had she returned with A+ quality material, she'd continue to have had at least a couple more across the board hits.

I'm going to go here despite the fact that when I did this before I got labeled some kind of racist, without actually calling me that, but I stick by what I said and I'll reiterate here. Diana had a reputation in the Black community that wasn't always the most positive, because of the image surrounding the way she supposedly treated the other Supremes. When Mary's book came out "confirming" a lot of speculation, this couldn't have done her any favors in a community that, despite it's issues with her, usually found a way to continue to support her. The fact that "Working Overtime" hit the top 3 of the r&b chart suggests to me that whatever people felt about how she may or may not have treated anybody, if they thought the song was good, the radio played it, and the people bought it. I was a kid at the time and I vividly remember people who had the single and how the song was on the radio constantly. So IMO if we could still give Diana a hit after Dreamgirl, Dreamgirl wasn't the problem some people want to think it was. "Pop" audiences were the ones who stopped buying the music, even if some of them still went to her shows. And the truth is, they stopped buying her stuff before Dreamgirl even came out.

[RanRan79]

i think Sup Faith was more harsh towards Diana, at least more of the personality clashes with Mary. Mary acknowledges in Sup Faith that much of the problems of the original Sups probably were the result of their youth and super fast success and she says that motown was more responsible for the dissent within the group than Diana.

so given that was her POV while writing Sup Faith, i wish she had maybe approached some of the 60s stories with that in mind. I don't think Mary ever point blank blames Diana for the Flo problems or the problems within the group. But she does pretty clearly position that D & B were in cahoots and didn't give a damn about what she or Flo thought/wanted. That doesn't really align with the later POV in Sup Faith. So that's probably my biggest concern with how she covers the issues in the 60s.

Also she sort of goes out of her way to highlight every petty thing Diana did - demand a pizza in middle of night and then not wanting it, fights with girls on the tour buses, hogging the shared bathroom mirror, etc. And yet Flo, Mary or Cindy never ever had a single diva moment ever? these complaints come across as silly and childish. like why bitch about something a 17 year old did 30 years ago? whereas if Diana was more directly involved with the decision to force M and F in the background, or if she demanded song be taken from them, or things more directly related to the group.

that's sort of my reasoning as to why i see Dreamgirl as a slam

Let's be clear though, Diana was in cahoots with Gordy. He controlled everything. EVERYTHING. But she was on board with a lot of it. And honestly I don't blame her for being on board in every single thing. The truth is that the lady was trying to get someplace and Gordy was giving her the opportunity to get there. Like most people her age she was focused on herself. I think it was in CHMR that there's a statement about how if Flo and Mary couldn't figure out a way to use the Supremes to their advantage like Diana was, then her attitude was "that's too bad". I get it. The problem is that Diana was thinking from a position of power and privilege, neither of which Flo and Mary possessed. Diana also knew better than anyone what Flo and Mary's gripes were because the three of them were really only around each other. Gordy is thought of as the fourth Supreme, but he really did have a record company to run, so he wasn't with them nearly as much as people think he was. A lot of Flo and Mary's anger was at Gordy but Diana was around so she got it instead. She could've gone to him, told him what was up, advocated for them, but it seems she so rarely did that. And when her self absorbing was at an all time high, she probably didn't care what it meant for Flo and Mary whenever Gordy promised her the moon and the stars. It's easy for Mary and Flo to see that as Diana conspiring with an "enemy".

[RanRan79]

i think some of the problem is that sexism that people tend to apply to women. there's the old adage of "aggressive men are go-getters, aggressive women are bitches" or how men can sleep around but women are whores.

maybe that's more of the issue with Dreamgirl. everyone knows that a woman being portrayed in a more aggressive manner will be interpreted as a bitch. and then that just adds that perception to any and all things associated with that woman.

I found the early teen antics funny but feel they could have been positioned a bit different. I think if mary really had positioned these as funny/comical and just "kids being dumb" and included herself in some examples, it would have come across more even. one of the big take aways of the whole Supremes story is they were SO successful SO quickly and SO young. that's a theme i think most people would relate to and if the overall group dynamics were centered more around that POV, it might have been less of "diana was a bitch" positioning.

As for the inconsistencies, i agree that it erodes the veracity of the book. none of them are big enough to totally wipe out any relevance or believability. but it just makes it sloppy. Even though youtube wasn't around in 85, there were plenty of fan videos on circulating. She could have been more diligent with digging up the real stories.

My favorite part of Dreamgirl is the pre-"Where Did Our Love Go" part. One of the standouts is how busy and how serious these young girls were about their craft, as early as the Primettes formation. They did become successful "quickly" and while so young, but they put in the work. That's why I would love a Supremes documentary. The books often rely on the drama, but I'd love to hear the recollections of people who recall just how dedicated these three young ladies were.

Whatever gripes are to be had about Dreamgirl, I do still consider it the primary source of all things Primettes and early Supremes.

[PeaceNHarmony]

i think some of the problem is that sexism that people tend to apply to women. there's the old adage of "aggressive men are go-getters, aggressive women are bitches" or how men can sleep around but women are whores.

maybe that's more of the issue with Dreamgirl. everyone knows that a woman being portrayed in a more aggressive manner will be interpreted as a bitch. and then that just adds that perception to any and all things associated with that woman.

I found the early teen antics funny but feel they could have been positioned a bit different. I think if mary really had positioned these as funny/comical and just "kids being dumb" and included herself in some examples, it would have come across more even. one of the big take aways of the whole Supremes story is they were SO successful SO quickly and SO young. that's a theme i think most people would relate to and if the overall group dynamics were centered more around that POV, it might have been less of "diana was a bitch" positioning.

As for the inconsistencies, i agree that it erodes the veracity of the book. none of them are big enough to totally wipe out any relevance or believability. but it just makes it sloppy. Even though youtube wasn't around in 85, there were plenty of fan videos on circulating. She could have been more diligent with digging up the real stories.I would have retained more respect for Wilson if she had told her story instead of focusing so intently on passive-aggressive victim-hood. The proof is in the pages, and the sex-ism-ism is HUGE. As is the jealousy of someone who plots their path and is successful. There's nary a whisper about Smokey ditching the Miracles, Marvie-poo's various transgressions, the boilin' hot mess that most of the members of our beloved Temptations were, the extra-marital transgressions of at least one of Four Tops [[with ... guess who?) As Ralph himself has stated here, 'It's the record business - get over it'.

[sup_fan]

Let's be clear though, Diana was in cahoots with Gordy. He controlled everything. EVERYTHING. But she was on board with a lot of it. And honestly I don't blame her for being on board in every single thing. The truth is that the lady was trying to get someplace and Gordy was giving her the opportunity to get there. Like most people her age she was focused on herself. I think it was in CHMR that there's a statement about how if Flo and Mary couldn't figure out a way to use the Supremes to their advantage like Diana was, then her attitude was "that's too bad". I get it. The problem is that Diana was thinking from a position of power and privilege, neither of which Flo and Mary possessed. Diana also knew better than anyone what Flo and Mary's gripes were because the three of them were really only around each other. Gordy is thought of as the fourth Supreme, but he really did have a record company to run, so he wasn't with them nearly as much as people think he was. A lot of Flo and Mary's anger was at Gordy but Diana was around so she got it instead. She could've gone to him, told him what was up, advocated for them, but it seems she so rarely did that. And when her self absorbing was at an all time high, she probably didn't care what it meant for Flo and Mary whenever Gordy promised her the moon and the stars. It's easy for Mary and Flo to see that as Diana conspiring with an "enemy".

i think that's right. Diana had goals and she WORKED for those goals. I don't believe she plotted to destroy M or F in any way. but she also wasn't going to sacrifice herself for them or anyone else either. We all know that Diana was a workhorse. that she pushed herself further and further. M and F didn't - not saying they were lazy or unmotivated. just saying they were normal while Diana's drive and ambition were different and unusual. Berry also shared this blind ambition so they aligned well in that sense.

there are stories about how she did push and encourage M and F's contribution for the group. Randy's story of Diana suggesting Mary sing the duet on Falling In Love. there have been stories on here of how Diana was eager for Flo's Xmas leads and Manhattan be included. But Diana didn't personally sit down with the execs as they were building an lp and involve herself with track lineup. She might have tried to coax Berry to do more but he might have had differing opinions.

After a while, i guess it became more of an "ok i can only do so much to personally guide M and F's careers, this is something they need to take charge of." Diana's goals and ambitions dictated that she continue to grow and grow. if she was constantly saying "no give this to mary" that sort of defeats her goals.