what went wrong - Reflections lp

[sup_fan]

looking at the "hits" studio albums [[in other words ignoring the concept and Copa albums), Reflections was the first flop, so to speak.

Where - #2, on charts for 89 weeks
More Hits - #6, 37 weeks
Symphony - #8, 37 weeks
A Go Go - #1, 52 weeks
HDH - #6, 29 weeks [[ouch!!)

Reflections - #18, 28 weeks

the title track was a huge hit. plus In and Out was a top 10. There were no simultaneous releases to slow it down.

and i'd argue that there were plenty of weak tracks on earlier lps like A Go Go and HDH.

so what went wrong?

[reese]

I would venture that Motown waited too long to release the album.

It might have done better if they had released it in 1967, around the time of the title track or IN AND OUT OF LOVE. But they waited to release it until March 1968, and on the heels of a less-than-successful single, FOREVER CAME TODAY. Interest that the hit singles would have garnered was most likely gone and also, a lot of fans were probably still grabbing the GREATEST HITS collection.

But #18 on the charts and a 28-week chart span isn't really all that bad, is it? If anything, it shows that the girls' automatic hit machine had slowed down.

[sup_fan]

I would venture that Motown waited too long to release the album.

It might have done better if they had released it in 1967, around the time of the title track or IN AND OUT OF LOVE. But they waited to release it until March 1968, and on the heels of a less-than-successful single, FOREVER CAME TODAY. Interest that the hit singles would have garnered was most likely gone and also, a lot of fans were probably still grabbing the GREATEST HITS collection.

But #18 on the charts and a 28-week chart span isn't really all that bad, is it? If anything, it shows that the girls' automatic hit machine had slowed down.

true - it's definitely relative. so the flop is based purely on the much stronger preceding albums

interesting point though about the timing. Greatest Hits was release shortly after Reflections [[the single) peaked. GH itself peaked in late October at #1 and claimed that spot for 5 weeks. the album was in the Top 10 for 24 weeks! it was such a powerful seller that i think the Reflections lp could have easily been released in late 67. maybe try to capture the holiday market. In and Out was released in late Oct and peaked in early Dec

[BayouMotownMan]

The lp was not released in 67 because their Motown catalog was full with the Greatest Hits being one of Motown's biggest sellers of the 1960s

What held back this lp was radio programmers not taking well to the new billing. Also, Forever did so poorly that it compromised the lp as well. Motown was concentrating on singles, lps didn't become a priority until later. The lp was successful, it made money. But Berry Gordy inundated us with them. It was almost as if the group was competing with itself for sales. Later in 1968 in a desperate effort to re-establish the group Gordy inundated the market even more. By the end of 1968 Motown released Love Child, Funny Girl, Join and TCB within a few weeks of each other. This was just too much. Love Child would have been a much bigger hit lp had this not happened and Funny Girl was terribly unsuccessful. Gordy was successful in re-establishing Diana Ross and the Supremes was it didn't sustain. By the summer of 1969 they were cold again.

[reese]

I think the original plan was to release REFLECTIONS on the GREATEST HITS album but they decided to save it for its own release instead. Of course, they had no idea that the Supremes' record sales were starting to become inconsistent.

But it just proved that although the group were strong album sellers, most of their successful albums [[aside from the Copa and TCB) were tied to current hit singles.

[TYK1986]

I think the release so many months after the album's biggest hit didn't help. HDH was released less than 2 weeks after the single release of Love is here and a GO GO was released a month after You can't hurry love. I hear symphony was released roughly a month and a half after My world is empty. Even though My world wasn't number 1 it was still a massive hit at number 5. Reflections would have probably done better released soon after In and out of love. But Greatest Hits was just released so that would have been a battle between the 2. I think I would have gone for Greatest hits if I had to choose. For someone with a low income I'd go for a LP knowing that all the songs on it were smash hits.

[marybrewster]

Side 2 was basically a covers LP.

Not enough original music and the end of HDH.

[TYK1986]

Love the A-side but the B-side is bad [[not terrible lol), except for Then. I don't like the covers. What if they released Reflections in October 1967 with the release of In and out of love. Included the Happening and have a #1 single, a #2 and #9 on the LP. Most of the songs on Reflections don't seem to go together for me anyway.

[antceleb12]

What held back this lp was radio programmers not taking well to the new billing.

I wonder if the new billing and Florence leaving had any affect on it, as well. Florence's exit, from what I understand, was still noticed by the pubic and reported in newspapers, so I wonder if die-hard fans of the original trio were turned off, or at least made less interested in, the new lineup.

[sup_fan]

The lp was not released in 67 because their Motown catalog was full with the Greatest Hits being one of Motown's biggest sellers of the 1960s

What held back this lp was radio programmers not taking well to the new billing. Also, Forever did so poorly that it compromised the lp as well. Motown was concentrating on singles, lps didn't become a priority until later. The lp was successful, it made money. But Berry Gordy inundated us with them. It was almost as if the group was competing with itself for sales. Later in 1968 in a desperate effort to re-establish the group Gordy inundated the market even more. By the end of 1968 Motown released Love Child, Funny Girl, Join and TCB within a few weeks of each other. This was just too much. Love Child would have been a much bigger hit lp had this not happened and Funny Girl was terribly unsuccessful. Gordy was successful in re-establishing Diana Ross and the Supremes was it didn't sustain. By the summer of 1969 they were cold again.

all very interesting!

again if you skip the concept albums [[Sing R&H in this case), it had been over a year between Sing HDH and Reflections. and nothing else was released in the first half of 68 to compete with this album. but you're right, Love Child definitely had to contend with Join as they were released within weeks of each other. plus all of the other albums between Aug and Dec of 68.

interesting that radio programmers were reacting negatively to the name change. I'm assuming they did NOT have similar reaction to the Miracles becoming Smokey Robinson &...

[RanRan79]

I figured it was a combo of Reese's point and Bayou's point, as well as Ant's. I also wonder what role, if any, the album sound played. IMO, Reflections is the first of the "singles" albums where the sound doesn't pop. It has a boring mood to it, although there are a few songs on it that I do like a lot. It's not an exciting album. There really isn't any dance tunes on it. The Symphony album is definitely a mood album, but it is also a mix of MOR and Motown. The tracks on side 2 are very good to excellent. On Reflections Side 1 is definitely better than side 2, but it's all still so laidback. Might be interesting to consider if a different tracklist would've made a difference in the album's success.

[RanRan79]

interesting that radio programmers were reacting negatively to the name change. I'm assuming they did NOT have similar reaction to the Miracles becoming Smokey Robinson &...

Keep in mind the public's perception of the groups. I think the public probably already considered the Miracles "Smokey Robinson and...". Smokey was a well known songwriter and producer. He even had his name and photo on someone else's album [[the Tempts) two years before the name change. Although history is occasionally re-written around here, pretty much up until Flo's exit, the public and the industry considered the Supremes a true group, with three identifiable singers. I wasn't around back then, but it's hard for me to believe that anyone outside of some of the most diehard fans would've batted an eye if Pete or Ronnie or Bobby were replaced. Renaming a true group had to come with some backlash. Of course all is forgiven when the music is great, as proven when the Supremes teamed up with the Tempts, as well as the release of "Love Child" and "Someday".

[Circa 1824]

looking at the "hits" studio albums [[in other words ignoring the concept and Copa albums), Reflections was the first flop, so to speak.

Where - #2, on charts for 89 weeks
More Hits - #6, 37 weeks
Symphony - #8, 37 weeks
A Go Go - #1, 52 weeks
HDH - #6, 29 weeks [[ouch!!)

Reflections - #18, 28 weeks



so what went wrong?

The cover of Reflections album was makeshift and blah. There was no dedicated photo shoot.

[reese]

I figured it was a combo of Reese's point and Bayou's point, as well as Ant's. I also wonder what role, if any, the album sound played. IMO, Reflections is the first of the "singles" albums where the sound doesn't pop. It has a boring mood to it, although there are a few songs on it that I do like a lot. It's not an exciting album. There really isn't any dance tunes on it. The Symphony album is definitely a mood album, but it is also a mix of MOR and Motown. The tracks on side 2 are very good to excellent. On Reflections Side 1 is definitely better than side 2, but it's all still so laidback. Might be interesting to consider if a different tracklist would've made a difference in the album's success.

I will admit that REFLECTIONS isn't one of favorite albums. It isn't bad but like you wrote, Side 1 is definitely better than Side 2.

That said, the only reason I know that is because I actually bought and played it. Did the album have bad word-of-mouth back in the day? Were there bad reviews that might make a fan choose not to purchase it?

[sup_fan]

The cover of Reflections album was makeshift and blah. There was no dedicated photo shoot.

see i thought the cover was kinda cool. so many pics to look at and all. versus the traditional 1 cover photo

the back cover was IMO weak. the single pic of diana up close

[reese]

...interesting that radio programmers were reacting negatively to the name change. I'm assuming they did NOT have similar reaction to the Miracles becoming Smokey Robinson &...

Programmers might have also reacted to the revised DRAS billing because it happened at the same time as the group lost an original member. Even to non-conspiracy theorists, the timing might be suspect.

[nomis]

Their version of "ode to Billie joe" is fantastic and "in and out of love " is my all time favorite Supremes track

[daviddh]

At the time Reflections was going to be the last Supremes single .....a farewell tour with Flo in tow was being planned.
However...Flo didn't come back and Ross stated she wasn't ready to go solo.
Also HDH was leaving ...not sure exactly when. But Motown felt the Supremes would not recover.
Love child was a long while off yet so after the Hits lol ...Motown went back to Reflections to get product out until new music was ready.
Had the hits lol not been released I'm sure Reflections would have done better.
Can't wait for the expanded edition.
Hopefully Kevin reeves does a new mix on Forever Came Today.
It just doesnt sparkle like the other songs but I like it
Side two is filled with what seems like demos

[sup_fan]

I wonder how much of the HDH material on Reflections was done and ready before HDH left?

Reflections - HDH and completed on May 9. so of course this was HDH
Im gonna make it - Deke, completed 12/21
Forever came today - HDH and completed on Jan 23, 1968 so maybe them or maybe not?
I can't make it alone - HDH completed 12/31 - ?? wonder here too
In and out - HDH completed JUly 7 so this should be them
bah bah bah - Frank Wilson, completed Jan 3 68

what the world needs now - HDH April 18, 1966
UP up and away - HDH Nov 17, 1967
Love makes me do - HDH Jan 31 1967
then - smokey, Nov 14, 67
Misery - smokey, July 6, 1966
Ode to billie joe - HDH Nov 15, 1967

[RanRan79]

Their version of "ode to Billie joe" is fantastic and "in and out of love " is my all time favorite Supremes track

"Ode to Billie Joe" is nice enough, but I really feel Mary was better suited to it. If Diana was to do it, I'd rather she have sung in her lower range to keep with the "dark" vibe of the song.

I'm not sure I would've voted to release "In and Out" as a single, but I do like it a lot. Can't wait for the expanded Reflections when we finally get to hear the Funk Brothers version [[and hopefully just Flo and Mary without the Andantes assist).

[RanRan79]

At the time Reflections was going to be the last Supremes single .....a farewell tour with Flo in tow was being planned.
However...Flo didn't come back and Ross stated she wasn't ready to go solo.
Also HDH was leaving ...not sure exactly when. But Motown felt the Supremes would not recover.
Love child was a long while off yet so after the Hits lol ...Motown went back to Reflections to get product out until new music was ready.
Had the hits lol not been released I'm sure Reflections would have done better.
Can't wait for the expanded edition.
Hopefully Kevin reeves does a new mix on Forever Came Today.
It just doesnt sparkle like the other songs but I like it
Side two is filled with what seems like demos

I don't believe "Reflections" was ever seriously considered the last single. Apparently there was brief discussion of the "what if" question regarding Diana as a solo in 1966. It's possible that it was then that Gordy began to map out Diana the solo star, but if he didn't think she was ready in 1966, she definitely wasn't anymore ready in 1967. The name being changed to DRATS was greenlit as early as Spring 1967. It's hard to fathom that the group would've been DRATS for one single and then that's all folks.

[copley]

Never heard that 'Reflections' was to be their final single! 'Reflections' is my fav 60's Supremes album. I have had it on CD for about 20 years, it has the bonus tracks 'Stay In My Lonely Arms' & 'All I Know About You'. In '68 music was changing, funk was big, the Supremes had been around for a long time. Pop groups don't last forever. HDH had gone and there was really no back up as Gordy had put all his eggs in one basket. The album, as much as I love it, had no cohesion but then none of their albums really had. There were 4 Supremes on the album plus of course the Andantes. There were two very old singles and their current one which by their standards was a massive flop. 'Forever Came Today' is actually by fav DRATS single. The market was being saturated by Supremes albums, in '68 they had 4 albums released. Their fan base was changing.'Funny Girl' was a huge mistake, this 15 yo kid was certainly not interested nor were my friends. #18 is not too shabby for an album that was issued about 10 mths too late.

[nomis]

Flo's last ever studio vocal for the group was on "going all the way to true love " a great track that was worthy as an addition to the album

[sup_fan]

there are some tracks that were left in the can that could definitely been added to the album which might have made it stronger

It's going all the way
am i asking too much
a little breeze
stay in my lonely arms

plus there were some songs that were started but perhaps not finished in time. but you could maybe coax them along to rush them onto the album

when it's to the top
sweet thing
honey bee
can't shake it loose
if you should walk a way

early 1968 saw a lot of recording activity. maybe they could have pulled in some better material

[Thornton]

With the gift of hindsight, I think a better option would have been to re-work A' Go-Go, skip Sing HDH, and release the Reflections album in 1967 with some stronger material.

Even though the group's singles didn't chart well in early 1968, they could have put out a strong album using all of the material they had recorded after Cindy joined, then released a more cohesive Love Child album in early 1969.

But again, hindsight is 20/20. I'm also thinking in terms of album quality rather than record sales.

[sup_fan]

With the gift of hindsight, I think a better option would have been to re-work A' Go-Go, skip Sing HDH, and release the Reflections album in 1967 with some stronger material.

Even though the group's singles didn't chart well in early 1968, they could have put out a strong album using all of the material they had recorded after Cindy joined, then released a more cohesive Love Child album in early 1969.

But again, hindsight is 20/20. I'm also thinking in terms of album quality rather than record sales.

but hindsight is so much fun!! lol

Thorn - what tracks would you do on these reworked lps? I love comparing and playing "producer" with other fans to see how we might each have altered things. and often i'll do playlists on them

[Thornton]

but hindsight is so much fun!! lol

Thorn - what tracks would you do on these reworked lps? I love comparing and playing "producer" with other fans to see how we might each have altered things. and often i'll do playlists on them

Haha, it is fun! I'll just include Reflections and the '68 album as those would be the most different. My A' Go-Go mix includes You Keep Me Hangin' On. My Love Child mix includes I'm Livin' In Shame.

Reflections [[Summer 1967 Version)
1. Reflections [[no fade out)
2. Going Down For The Third Time
3. Love Is Here And Now You're Gone
4. In And Out Of Love
5. Let The Music Play
6. The Happening
7. There's No Stopping Us Now
8. I Guess I'll Always Love You
9. Just A Little Misunderstanding
10. Misery Makes Its Home In My Heart
11. What Becomes Of The Brokenhearted? [[no fade out)
12. It's Going All The Way To True Love

1968 Album
1. I'm Gonna Make It [[I Will Wait For You)
2. Am I Asking Too Much?
3. Some Things You Never Get Used To
4. Forever Came Today
5. Heaven Must Have Sent You
6. Bah, Bah, Bah
7. The Beginning Of The End Of Love
8. The Nitty Gritty
9. I Can't Make It Alone
10. You've Been So Wonderful To Me
11. Can't Take My Eyes Off You
12. Then

[sup_fan]

Haha, it is fun! I'll just include Reflections and the '68 album as those would be the most different. My A' Go-Go mix includes You Keep Me Hangin' On. My Love Child mix includes I'm Livin' In Shame.

Reflections [[Summer 1967 Version)
1. Reflections [[no fade out)
2. Going Down For The Third Time
3. Love Is Here And Now You're Gone
4. In And Out Of Love
5. Let The Music Play
6. The Happening
7. There's No Stopping Us Now
8. I Guess I'll Always Love You
9. Just A Little Misunderstanding
10. Misery Makes Its Home In My Heart
11. What Becomes Of The Brokenhearted? [[no fade out)
12. It's Going All The Way To True Love

1968 Album
1. I'm Gonna Make It [[I Will Wait For You)
2. Am I Asking Too Much?
3. Some Things You Never Get Used To
4. Forever Came Today
5. Heaven Must Have Sent You
6. Bah, Bah, Bah
7. The Beginning Of The End Of Love
8. The Nitty Gritty
9. I Can't Make It Alone
10. You've Been So Wonderful To Me
11. Can't Take My Eyes Off You
12. Then

great lists. and a totally different approach from how i went at it. i kept to the same general release schedule but completely reshuffled the tracks and all.

I don't really care for In And Out Of Love. At one point, i was on wikipedia and read about this song. They described the category as "Sunshine Pop" which was a style of 60s pop music focused in the LA area. groups such as 5th Dimension, Beach Boys, Mamas and Papas, The Association

learning this didn't make me like the song but i definitely gained a greater appreciation for it and some of the tunes on the original Reflections lp. the album sort of takes on a "motown does California" thing with Reflections and some of the psychedelic soul tunes representing San Fran and In & Out, Up Up & Away and a few others doing LA/Sunshine.

My retake on the song list is:

Reflections
I'm gonna make it
I can't make it alone
In and out of Love
Misery makes its home
ode to billie joe

Forever came today
it's going all the way
am i asking too much
A little breeze
Up up and away
bah bah bah

[daviddh]

hopefully George may jump in here but , i do believe my info is correct.
wasnt flo fired aug 67
reflections was released aound the same time and
HDH was leaving or left
motown felt it was over. partly discussed by Shelly Berger in Motown 40 tv special
also
Mamas and Papas fired Michele and toured without her and with her replacement . the tour was cancelled as fans protested. Michelle was brought back.
Gordy was afraid the fans were going to do the same with Supremes and Flos departure, which is partly why no reason was given. they tried to play it down.
have to pull out some of those above gems. a little breeze was a fav and i think would have fit into Reflections plus i would have added The Happening.
should have dropped the awful up up and away.lackluster

[sup_fan]

hopefully George may jump in here but , i do believe my info is correct.
wasnt flo fired aug 67
reflections was released aound the same time and
HDH was leaving or left
motown felt it was over. partly discussed by Shelly Berger in Motown 40 tv special
also
Mamas and Papas fired Michele and toured without her and with her replacement . the tour was cancelled as fans protested. Michelle was brought back.
Gordy was afraid the fans were going to do the same with Supremes and Flos departure, which is partly why no reason was given. they tried to play it down.
have to pull out some of those above gems. a little breeze was a fav and i think would have fit into Reflections plus i would have added The Happening.
should have dropped the awful up up and away.lackluster

I believe Flo's last shows were July 1. Her bday was June 30 and according to Randy's book, those shows went fine. the Flamingo engagement started on June 29. so the first two days went ok. during the shows on the 30th, Diana acknowledged flos bday and the audience sang her the Birthday Song. There was a party that evening in one of the suites too. Then everyone went out clubbing.

A rehearsal was scheduled for late morning on July 1 but the girls mostly spend the day sleeping and resting from the partying the night before. Flo came down and [[according to the tailor that made the garments and was also doing some candid photos of the group) found the garment bag with the Cindy name tag on it. that was when things exploded. Flo admitted in an interview in the 70s that she had had some drinks that evening but she hasn't stated if she was or wasn't drunk. She wore Cindy's outfit onstage that night and did the "fat is where it's at" bit while sticking out her stomach

on July 2 is when she left Vegas and flew home.

Reflections was released as a single on July 24, 67

i'm not sure when or how the HDH timeline plays out. the books i've read are sort of vague as to when they started slowing down their work. Apparently they were wanting a bigger piece of the royalties and all, more money. i've also heard they wanted a label within the motown structure or different levels of authority. maybe more executive title and compensation. etc. I'm not 100% sure but the story goes is that sometime in 67 they started to slow down their work. they hadn't stopped but they were sort of MIA. berry with on the road with the girls and so it took a while for him to realize the situation

At some point Eddie and Berry met as Eddie was sort of the defacto spokesman. The story i read is that meeting did NOT go well and Eddie left, never to return.

i've read that the sessions for the Tops' I'm In A Different World were the final one HDH did.

[daviddh]

Thanks for filling in blanks.
Maybe we are getting Reflections for Diana's b day

[vgalindo]

Thanks for filling in blanks.
Maybe we are getting Reflections for Diana's b day
That would be great. And so would Ross 78.

[johnjeb]

I enjoyed the Reflections album when it was released. I liked that Side 1 was all Motown. Side 2 was a nice mix of Easy Listening Motown originals and Pop Hits.

The Pop-influenced sound of the Reflections album was definitely a contrast to the more typical Motown Sound of Sing HDH. Maybe that was the direction Motown thought the newly-renamed group should take. It seems that an additional single was planned about the time of the album's release: "What The World Needs Now Is Love" b/w "Your Kiss Of Fire". Two odd choices, imo.

If an easy-listening single was wanted maybe "Then" should have been the choice b/w "Love Makes Me Do Foolish Things". I think that might have helped sales. It might have given the album a few more weeks on the chart and helped it skip into the Top 10 for a nanosecond.

The biggest problem with this album were the "hits". "In And Out Of Love" was too Pop and bouncy without an edge. Hummable but no match to their earlier hits. "Forever Came Today", which I used to love, is just too dramatic to grab listeners other than the die-hard fans.

It's surprising that with the emergence of Aretha in 1967 into 1968 with 6+ soulful hits, that Motown would decide The Supremes [[Diana Ross) should stray from the driving Motown Sound into pure Pop! Thankfully songs more befitting the group were recorded for the Love Child album.

[reese]

The Pop-influenced sound of the Reflections album was definitely a contrast to the more typical Motown Sound of Sing HDH. Maybe that was the direction Motown thought the newly-renamed group should take. It seems that an additional single was planned about the time of the album's release: "What The World Needs Now Is Love" b/w "Your Kiss Of Fire". Two odd choices, imo.



It is an odd coupling, isn't it? I can't believe Motown was really considering releasing it as a single.

One of the books gives it a release date of 4/68, which makes me think it was probably a promo released to DJs only to promote the REFLECTIONS album. And even then, I wonder what good it would have done. Their version of WHAT THE WORLD NEEDS NOW IS LOVE is rather limp, IMO. If I had been around then and heard this, it certainly wouldn't have made me part with my hard earned $.

[RanRan79]

hopefully George may jump in here but , i do believe my info is correct.
wasnt flo fired aug 67
reflections was released aound the same time and
HDH was leaving or left
motown felt it was over. partly discussed by Shelly Berger in Motown 40 tv special
also
Mamas and Papas fired Michele and toured without her and with her replacement . the tour was cancelled as fans protested. Michelle was brought back.
Gordy was afraid the fans were going to do the same with Supremes and Flos departure, which is partly why no reason was given. they tried to play it down.
have to pull out some of those above gems. a little breeze was a fav and i think would have fit into Reflections plus i would have added The Happening.
should have dropped the awful up up and away.lackluster

Flo was fired at the start of July. "Reflections" was released later that month. The scenario you present just doesn't make any business sense. If "Reflections" was going to be the last, then there was no point in firing Flo and replacing her with anyone. Even if the suggestion is that once Flo was fired that the decision was made to make the next single the final one and send Diana alone, it still doesn't make sense. DRATS schedule was packed and a lot of that stuff was booked well in advance. No way was Diana Ross going to be able to do concerts and television shows without the Supremes when it's the Supremes who are booked for those appearances. I'm not discounting that you read this scenario somewhere, all kinds of things have been written over the years, but it just doesn't make sense.

[RanRan79]

It's surprising that with the emergence of Aretha in 1967 into 1968 with 6+ soulful hits, that Motown would decide The Supremes [[Diana Ross) should stray from the driving Motown Sound into pure Pop! Thankfully songs more befitting the group were recorded for the Love Child album.

Yup. I think Gordy and co realized the mistake and steered the group in a different direction starting with "Love Child". The group recorded some real funky stuff with the Tempts also.

[RanRan79]

It is an odd coupling, isn't it? I can't believe Motown was really considering releasing it as a single.

One of the books gives it a release date of 4/68, which makes me think it was probably a promo released to DJs only to promote the REFLECTIONS album. And even then, I wonder what good it would have done. Their version of WHAT THE WORLD NEEDS NOW IS LOVE is rather limp, IMO. If I had been around then and heard this, it certainly wouldn't have made me part with my hard earned $.

Motown found itself stuck on stupid so many different times throughout the years that it would not surprise me if some idiot really did want "What the World Needs" released as a single. It's one of the worst things the group ever did, IMO. The track is unimaginative, Diana sounds halfway disinterested, and Flo and Mary sound like they'd rather be doing anything but recording this song at all. With some imagination this could've actually been one of the group's best covers. Get Diana in the zone and her lyrical interpretation skills are excellent. Motown the hell out of the track. Push Flo and Mary to tap into their powerhouse abilities. Oh boy, we would've been in for a treat. But instead we got what we got. [[I will admit what the guys did to the song on the A Go Go EE made the song a bit more listenable than it's original state.)

[nomis]

Is it true the first pressings included Flo on the cover or is that a Motown Myth ?

[sup_fan]

i think some fans on here have stated that they have the original pressing with the new cover glued on top

[daviddh]

as i get older things seem to blend together, i honestly do not remember as much or as clearly as i did 10 years ago. part of it is really ,not my story. its the Supremes.
what i seem to recall[[jump in George or Andy) Flo was fired from the group, at the same time the Mamas and Papas fired Michele Philips but the fans had a huge bad reaction to this during their tour. so much so, they cancelled the tour and rehired Michele. some recordings during this period do not include Michele but her replacement.
Berry was aware of the Mamas and Papas disaster as i am sure it was big news then. Gordy apparenty had second thoughts on Flo departure and he and the management felt the Supremes would not recover the loss of Hdh.
it was decided to retire the group , the Greatest Hits was released and it originally contained Reflections .
the plan, the hits lp and a farewell tour with Florence.
obviously Cindy B stayed on. as did Diana and reflections was replaced on the lp with Crossroads of Love.
i suppose the rest will come out on the expanded edition hopefully

[nomis]

18773

Mexican LP

[sup_fan]

as i get older things seem to blend together, i honestly do not remember as much or as clearly as i did 10 years ago. part of it is really ,not my story. its the Supremes.
what i seem to recall[[jump in George or Andy) Flo was fired from the group, at the same time the Mamas and Papas fired Michele Philips but the fans had a huge bad reaction to this during their tour. so much so, they cancelled the tour and rehired Michele. some recordings during this period do not include Michele but her replacement.
Berry was aware of the Mamas and Papas disaster as i am sure it was big news then. Gordy apparenty had second thoughts on Flo departure and he and the management felt the Supremes would not recover the loss of Hdh.
it was decided to retire the group , the Greatest Hits was released and it originally contained Reflections .
the plan, the hits lp and a farewell tour with Florence.
obviously Cindy B stayed on. as did Diana and reflections was replaced on the lp with Crossroads of Love.
i suppose the rest will come out on the expanded edition hopefully

while i've not heard of Reflections being the final single, i'm sure you're right about the trepidation everyone felt at the time.

What if after Reflections was released it DIDN'T chart well or what if concert attendance dropped off drastically or something else? If the public rejected the change in lineup, then it would have accelerated Diana's departure.

add into this the HDH fiasco and you probably had lots of motown brass sweating bullets. and this probably lasted well into mid 68. you did have the single Reflections do very well. but each subsequent one did worse. the reflections lp only went to 18 or so, then TOTT did something like 50 and Funny Girl bombed. the group had really declined over the course of 1 year

then they did rebound with LC and the duets. but things were def shaky for quite a while

[danman869]

as i get older things seem to blend together, i honestly do not remember as much or as clearly as i did 10 years ago. part of it is really ,not my story. its the Supremes.
what i seem to recall[[jump in George or Andy) Flo was fired from the group, at the same time the Mamas and Papas fired Michele Philips but the fans had a huge bad reaction to this during their tour. so much so, they cancelled the tour and rehired Michele. some recordings during this period do not include Michele but her replacement.
Berry was aware of the Mamas and Papas disaster as i am sure it was big news then. Gordy apparenty had second thoughts on Flo departure and he and the management felt the Supremes would not recover the loss of Hdh.
it was decided to retire the group , the Greatest Hits was released and it originally contained Reflections .
the plan, the hits lp and a farewell tour with Florence.
obviously Cindy B stayed on. as did Diana and reflections was replaced on the lp with Crossroads of Love.
i suppose the rest will come out on the expanded edition hopefully

John Phillips fired Michelle Phillips after discovering her affair [[one of which had been with group-mate Denny Doherty) with Gene Clark of The Byrds in the beginning of June 1966. The "legend" goes that Jill Gibson, a model and former girlfriend of Jan Berry of Jan and Dean fame, was visiting friend/producer Lou Adler in the studio the night of Michelle's firing and, shortly afterward, John chose to replace Michelle with Jill. The group left [[with newly-hired Jill) within a week for a multi-week tour in England. Upon their return to Los Angeles in July 1966, Gibson went in the studio with the rest of the group recording more tracks for the M&Ps second album in between going out on the road for various concert appearances around the country. While the promotion machine began touting Jill as "the newest Mama" and supposedly a majority of then fans were accepting of Jill taking Michelle's place in the group during the appearances made in July and August 1966, John Phillips [["and others") claimed that the chemistry possessed by him, Denny, Cass, and Michelle...just wasn't there with Jill in the group. Phillips apparently decided it would be best to have his wife, Michelle, return to her position in the group and to let Jill Gibson go. MY opinion about all this is that John Phillips was punishing Michelle in a very, very public way and had things overall with Jill Gibson gone smashingly, Michelle would have stayed fired. I suspect that when John noticed that things on stage just didn't feel quite the same without Michelle, he probably began to reconsider his decision. Plus, he'd probably made his point with Michelle after publicly humiliating her in a way that he felt she'd privately humiliated him. This was less of a "disaster" than Phillips likely feeling he'd made his point with his wife/group-mate after realizing the electricity of the group was better with her there than not there. Unlike Florence and Berry, John was married to Michelle and they still lived together. There were different things involved in the decision to fire Michelle and eventually bring her back than there were in Florence being fired from The Supremes. I'd think that Michelle's return was not quite as highly promoted as Jill's entry because then they'd have to explain why she was gone in the first place and then brought back. The feeling/approach was likely to carry on and continue riding the success and just pretend June-August 1966 never happened for the Mamas and Papas. I have to doubt Berry knew of any inner details of why Michelle was fired, why Jill Gibson was hired and fired, and why Michelle returned. I would think that Berry acted with Florence in that moment and related to Florence and how she was affecting the booming business that was The Supremes and not "how did the fans/public react to Jill Gibson replacing Michelle Phillips?" Do I think there was trepidation from Berry and his executives about whether or not it was the right decision to keep Florence or let her go? SURE. I would think Berry felt that keeping Florence out of the Hollywood Bowl show [[a high profile event for both the group AND Motown's education scholarship fund announcement) was a punishment--and a public one at that. Clearly Berry wasn't fixed on a decision about Flo being out because he let her return a few weeks after the Bowl to appear at the Copa--an always important venue for the group--and to continue on with the group [[appearing and recording) past that big gig and on to Las Vegas...another important gig. Although I think the final decision about Flo was made in Las Vegas, I suspect that had Florence kept herself in check for several more months, Berry would have likely thanked Cindy for her time, rewarded her with a generous one-time payment [[charged to The Supremes' account, I'm sure LOL), and let her return to the wilds of New Jersey and The Bluebelles [[if they'd taken her back). I don't think the situation experienced by the Mamas and The Papas with Michelle ever really factored into Berry's thought process or decisions involving Florence. By that point, the goal was likely to make sure that Diana's career was protected and kept healthy and Berry and Company were likely less concerned with how Florence [[or even Mary) was affected by that. Whether they brought in Cindy or anyone else [[which, Motown clearly had no problem with group member replacements--see The Vandellas, The Temptations, and The Velvelettes--so again--it was all about protecting Diana's career), the decision to put Diana out as a solo by the Fall of 1967 was likely not at the top of the list of choices, but rather making sure the vehicle that was propelling her career [[The Supremes) was remaining viable for as long as they needed it to be.

[floyjoy678]

Its also been said that Berry was hesitant about firing Flo because Jules Podell got wind of Flo being replaced and told Berry he wanted the original group.

I've always wondered how did Berry and the girls talk Flo into coming back? Clearly she wasn't happy when she did return. Mary says that Flo didn't speak with her or Diana when she came back.

[SatansBlues]

Can someone remind me again when the big meeting was with Gordy and the Supremes at his house discussing Florence's participation in the group? Was it before or after the Hollywood Bowl?

[sup_fan]

i believe the meeting was late april

On April 23 they were scheduled to play the Loyola Field House in New Orleans. this is the show that D and M did as a duet act

the hollywood bowl show was on April 29

So that's a crazy short period for Cindy to learn the act

[sup_fan]

here's another thought for this topic

Reflections was originally planned for the Greatest Hits album. had that happened we might not have even received a Reflections lp. so would In and Out and Forever still have been follow up singles?

Reflections peaked in early Sept 67 just a couple months after Cindy joined. at that point you have no new album out and no new singles out.

so what might have been released?

[daviddh]

Good question.
But in n out was pulled and the Andantees added...
forever came today probably would have been released unless Ross went solo.
Then love child would be her first single

[nomis]

ive always wanted to know what was shown on the Aug 12th edition of "American Bandstand" some sources say it was "Reflections".. was it a promo clip performance ? something by The Supremes appeared on this air date on the show

[sup_fan]

good point

In and Out was released PRIOR to Reflections album being released. so i guess we could assume that would still happen

[blackguy69]

But she did it lol

i believe the meeting was late april

On April 23 they were scheduled to play the Loyola Field House in New Orleans. this is the show that D and M did as a duet act

the hollywood bowl show was on April 29

So that's a crazy short period for Cindy to learn the act

[sup_fan]

But she did it lol

exactly right!!!

while the vast majority of the discussion of this overall time period falls on obvious Flo topics, we shouldn't overlook Cindy. She was brought in to fulfil a job and did so amazingly. learning their show in just a few days, doing so w grace and kindness.

[after you]

Nothing went wrong with this album it’s a master piece in every way possible also it does not matter what it did on the charts the voice was there and she made a heck of a album

[marybrewster]

also it does not matter what it did on the charts the voice was there

Unfortunately that's not how the music business works.

And it's a little dramatic to say it's a masterpiece, lol.

[floyjoy678]

I was always able to listen to every Supremes album all the way through until the Reflections album. Theres still a couple of songs on there that I really don't think I've listened to. Whenever I've played this album I always end up tuning out and doing something else. I think the only late 60s album I listened to all the way through was Love Child and maybe Let the Sunshine In.

[TYK1986]

I love the Reflections LP cover, controversial lol, and the singles released from this album. I wouldn't call it a masterpiece, but that's just my opinion. It's the B-side that makes this album feel sloppy and rushed. Just not keen on the first 3 songs, What the world, love makes me do foolish things and up up and away. The A side is great and I can listen to it without skipping a song. I don't think anything went wrong because 18 on the album charts is still very good. Martha and the Vandellas didn't even get a single album in the top 20. Marvelettes were even worse on the album charts.

[sup_fan]

Nothing went wrong with this album it’s a master piece in every way possible also it does not matter what it did on the charts the voice was there and she made a heck of a album

interesting POV After. what about this album really jumps out to you? I love the sort of despondent tone Diana uses on Reflection. her delivery is like that of a person in shock of heartbreak. But on some of the other tunes like I'm Gonna Make It, it's a different kind of detached. like she's just going through the motions of recording. IMO

would love to hear what really makes this album a gem for you

[sup_fan]

I love the Reflections LP cover, controversial lol, and the singles released from this album. I wouldn't call it a masterpiece, but that's just my opinion. It's the B-side that makes this album feel sloppy and rushed. Just not keen on the first 3 songs, What the world, love makes me do foolish things and up up and away. The A side is great and I can listen to it without skipping a song. I don't think anything went wrong because 18 on the album charts is still very good. Martha and the Vandellas didn't even get a single album in the top 20. Marvelettes were even worse on the album charts.

i think Love Makes Me Do is a lovely track. very well done even if Martha's is still the definitive version.

and Up Up has grown on me. while it's never been a fav of mine [[neither had In and Out), when i learned that both songs fall into the "sunshine pop" sound of the era, it makes sense. that sound had it's base in LA and with groups like the 5th Dimension. Whereas Reflections and some of the other Side A tracks were clearly influenced by psychedelia from San Fran.

so the idea could be [[albeit incomplete) that this is a "motown does California" album.

[RanRan79]

I was always able to listen to every Supremes album all the way through until the Reflections album. Theres still a couple of songs on there that I really don't think I've listened to. Whenever I've played this album I always end up tuning out and doing something else. I think the only late 60s album I listened to all the way through was Love Child and maybe Let the Sunshine In.

I agree. Typically I skip tracks on almost every album, but if I'm in the mood for the entire thing, I'll sit through tracks that I'm not necessarily crazy about. I will not do that for Reflections. "What the World Needs Now" is dreadful. I used to hate "Up, Up and Away" also, but it has grown on me a little. I'll play Love Child and Sunshine all the way through, but not Crop. IMO Reflections and Crop are at the bottom of the list if I ranked Supremes albums during the 60s.

[after you]

What I like about this album is The Voice there is nobody in the history of music as a voice like Diana Ross it flows from song to song it’ll take you to that place there is no denying But this album is great case in point Justin Bieber’s new album though I love them songs are great I can understand hardly understand what he’s singing the songs are boring and then you have an album like this reflections the voice is very clear you can hear Word for Word what she’s singing and then that case it’s a masterpiece

[RanRan79]

i think Love Makes Me Do is a lovely track. very well done even if Martha's is still the definitive version.



Yeah, I love this version of the song. I seem to recall a thread once where we discussed the cuts that the Supremes did that Martha and the Vs did first and the consensus was that the Supremes could never manage to do those songs justice. I definitely think this is the one exception. Martha is tops on this, but Diana isn't too far behind. Of course I think the song itself is just perfect and might just be one of those that's hard to mess up. I have not heard a version that I didn't like, with my top 3 being Martha, Thee Midnighters, and then Diana.

[RanRan79]

What I like about this album is The Voice there is nobody in the history of music as a voice like Diana Ross it flows from song to song it’ll take you to that place there is no denying But this album is great case in point Justin Bieber’s new album though I love them songs are great I can understand hardly understand what he’s singing the songs are boring and then you have an album like this reflections the voice is very clear you can hear Word for Word what she’s singing and then that case it’s a masterpiece

One person's masterpiece is another person's...you know the rest. To each their own. It's so interesting to read the various opinions about the music and see how varied everyone's experience with it all has been.

[lucky2012]

One person's masterpiece is another person's...you know the rest. To each their own. It's so interesting to read the various opinions about the music and see how varied everyone's experience with it all has been.

This is why I stay here :)

[RanRan79]

This is why I stay here :)

Really? I would've thought it was the spats and passive aggressive digs that crop up. Or is it just me?:p

[lucky2012]

Really? I would've thought it was the spats and passive aggressive digs that crop up. Or is it just me?:p

It's all good. :rolleyes:

[sup_fan]

What I like about this album is The Voice there is nobody in the history of music as a voice like Diana Ross it flows from song to song it’ll take you to that place there is no denying But this album is great case in point Justin Bieber’s new album though I love them songs are great I can understand hardly understand what he’s singing the songs are boring and then you have an album like this reflections the voice is very clear you can hear Word for Word what she’s singing and then that case it’s a masterpiece

i love her voice too. i just don't know that i find this album set to be the best display of her vocal capabilities. even if you just look to either side of this album, the albums just pre and post Reflections.

Sing R&H is one of the most perfect albums the group ever released. it stands up there frankly with any Diana Ross album of her career, including Touch me in the morning, the Boss, surrender. I get it if you don't personally care for this genre of music - that's perfectly fine. but you can't deny the vocal skill and magic the girls bring here

FG is another one where you might not like the show or the genre. but DR is superb here. just excellent throughout.

Love Child is an example of the excellent pop music DR and the group could put out. while the album doesn't have a collective approach or theme [[other than maybe just good songs lol), i find the tracks on it are better performed that many of the Reflections tracks

but again, i love comparing and sharing with everyone here :) your opinion of the Reflections album is wonderful and love hearing your POV

[sup_fan]

I agree. Typically I skip tracks on almost every album, but if I'm in the mood for the entire thing, I'll sit through tracks that I'm not necessarily crazy about. I will not do that for Reflections. "What the World Needs Now" is dreadful. I used to hate "Up, Up and Away" also, but it has grown on me a little. I'll play Love Child and Sunshine all the way through, but not Crop. IMO Reflections and Crop are at the bottom of the list if I ranked Supremes albums during the 60s.

so i don't know if i find What The World as terrible as everyone else. it's certainly not a favorite nor one i add to playlists. but i also don't find it as offensive as everyone else. I agree that the vocals are a bit boring. they could have had more passion when recording it.

[daviddh]

Side two including up up and away and what the world needs sounds like run thru's to me.
Sound unfinished

[RanRan79]

so i don't know if i find What The World as terrible as everyone else. it's certainly not a favorite nor one i add to playlists. but i also don't find it as offensive as everyone else. I agree that the vocals are a bit boring. they could have had more passion when recording it.

I'm a fan of the original, which I heard before I heard the Supremes version. The original is so well done that any cover version that doesn't at least attempt to take it up a notch, fails in comparison. The drivel HDH produced with this song, there was no attempt to take it up a notch. Not even an attempt to respectfully cover it. Diana's vocal is lackluster at best. And Flo and Mary turn out what is possibly their most boring backing vocal ever. No imagination in the track. Had this song never been released on Reflections and only came out in one of the subsequent vault comps, I probably wouldn't be as hard on it as I would assume it was a demo of sorts. But not only was this bullshit put on an album, it was considered for single release. I wouldn't even want what they were smoking when that decision came across the table.

"What the World" is only a smidge better than their version of "My Guy", which is bad for all or similar reasons.

[sup_fan]

i'm just totally speculating here

What the World was recorded on 4/18 along with In My Lonely Room, Heat Wave. on the 20th they did It's not Unusual, Get Ready, Sloopy, Money, Satisfaction, This old heart, shake me wake me, mickey monkey

To be honest, some of the vocals from these days just aren't up to Supremes' standards IMO. Diana typically delivered a pretty solid lead but M and F really seem disengaged on many of theirs. were they tires? mad? bored? sick? fed up? who would know.

But What The World is most definitely not the only subpar song that came out of this time

and I agree with you Ran, given other material that we've since received from the vaults, there were stronger options available to include on the album. A Little Breeze would have been a lovely option.

[TYK1986]

I don't like what the world needs now either, said it earlier. To me it just doesn't fit the album nor does it sound finished. I agree that Mary and Florence sound semi boring. I tried to listen to the alt version on A Go Go expanded but still not keen on it. I think the song would have fitted on the There's a place for us album.

For me the songs on side A are so strong that the songs on side B disappoint. I like Then on side B but only because Cindy is on the background.

[after you]

It appears it’s always the same ones that are always trashing anything that Diana Ross does it’s too I’m finished it doesn’t sound rightThe sounds don’t match this and that this and this and this is just absolutely ridiculous just enjoy the music don’t destroy it there’s absolutely nothing wrong with any of these songs compared to any singers out there today she does a damn good job and that is a fact

[TYK1986]

I don't think that very fair to say such thing. The Supremes forum has been good for quite some time and nobody has disrespected any of the ladies, including Diana. This is a forum to discuss and those who don't like a song are allowed to give their opinion. Cindy is my favourite Supremes and I accept that some find her bland or boring because they are entitled to give their opinion.
I love Diana and her voice is fantastic but that does not mean I like every song she sang. People are allowed to say they don't like a song or why. It's part of being member of a forum and sometimes you might read things you do not agree with but nobody has been trashing Diana. There's only 1 CD in my car and guess which one??

[TYK1986]

Different opinions make this forum more interesting. We all love the Supremes that's why we discuss them. But that doesn't mean we like all their songs or the choices they made or whoever made them for them. I might be speaking for myself here but that's my say in this. Finish, Einde, Fin und Ende.

[floyjoy678]

I don't think that very fair to say such thing. The Supremes forum has been good for quite some time and nobody has disrespected any of the ladies, including Diana. This is a forum to discuss and those who don't like a song are allowed to give their opinion. Cindy is my favourite Supremes and I accept that some find her bland or boring because they are entitled to give their opinion.
I love Diana and her voice is fantastic but that does not mean I like every song she sang. People are allowed to say they don't like a song or why. It's part of being member of a forum and sometimes you might read things you do not agree with but nobody has been trashing Diana. There's only 1 CD in my car and guess which one??

Agreed. I LOVE Flo's voice and can't for the life of me understand how several members on this forum don't see the potential she had but everyone is entitled to their own opinions and I respect that.

[RanRan79]

i'm just totally speculating here

What the World was recorded on 4/18 along with In My Lonely Room, Heat Wave. on the 20th they did It's not Unusual, Get Ready, Sloopy, Money, Satisfaction, This old heart, shake me wake me, mickey monkey

To be honest, some of the vocals from these days just aren't up to Supremes' standards IMO. Diana typically delivered a pretty solid lead but M and F really seem disengaged on many of theirs. were they tires? mad? bored? sick? fed up? who would know.

But What The World is most definitely not the only subpar song that came out of this time

and I agree with you Ran, given other material that we've since received from the vaults, there were stronger options available to include on the album. A Little Breeze would have been a lovely option.

Sub par, but not downright disrespectful. Lol Let me be clear about the way I view Flo and Mary as backing vocalists: they were as good as anyone in the business. When they were on point, they were really on it. So for them to approach "What the World Needs", which had this original backing vocal that was superb, with the energy Pat Boone might have given it, is almost unforgivable.

The songs you point out aren't necessarily the best representation of what Flo and Mary had to offer [["Satisfaction" being an obvious exception IMO), but none of them, not even "Sloopy", are quite as un-Supreme like as "What the World Needs".

The only thing that gives "World" the edge over "My Guy" is that Diana's lead on "World" is slightly more acceptable than the crap she did on "My Guy". That entire recording is a sin and a shame.

[RanRan79]

I don't like what the world needs now either, said it earlier. To me it just doesn't fit the album nor does it sound finished. I agree that Mary and Florence sound semi boring. I tried to listen to the alt version on A Go Go expanded but still not keen on it. I think the song would have fitted on the There's a place for us album.

For me the songs on side A are so strong that the songs on side B disappoint. I like Then on side B but only because Cindy is on the background.

"Then" is a great Cindy song. It's actually one of the highlights of the song for me.

[RanRan79]

It appears it’s always the same ones that are always trashing anything that Diana Ross does it’s too I’m finished it doesn’t sound rightThe sounds don’t match this and that this and this and this is just absolutely ridiculous just enjoy the music don’t destroy it there’s absolutely nothing wrong with any of these songs compared to any singers out there today she does a damn good job and that is a fact

Seven posts in and this person is already insulting forum members because they have a different opinion. I smell someone who's been here for far more than 7 posts and long before this month. I smell someone pissed that the forum has largely been absent the bullshit that got the DRATS section banished to the basement and so decided it was time to shake things up. Don't feed the actual trolls people. Blocked.

[RanRan79]

Agreed. I LOVE Flo's voice and can't for the life of me understand how several members on this forum don't see the potential she had but everyone is entitled to their own opinions and I respect that.

Same here. Flo is top rated in my book. But then I go on Diana Ross vids on Youtube and see some of the comments people leave and wonder why, even after a legendary career, they still don't get why Diana's popular. But no reason to go on the attack. People like what they like.

[TYK1986]

I always think some are even more obsessed with certain people than we are and Youtube is far more vicious than this forum has ever been lol. Love the fact that we all have different views.

I didn't like it when they relegated Cindy even further into the background when they did the joined Temptations version of "Then". I think heaven must have sent you would have been a great inclusion on side 2 of Reflections. Wonder if "the Happening" would have worked on Reflections.

[sup_fan]

Sub par, but not downright disrespectful. Lol Let me be clear about the way I view Flo and Mary as backing vocalists: they were as good as anyone in the business. When they were on point, they were really on it. So for them to approach "What the World Needs", which had this original backing vocal that was superb, with the energy Pat Boone might have given it, is almost unforgivable.

The songs you point out aren't necessarily the best representation of what Flo and Mary had to offer [["Satisfaction" being an obvious exception IMO), but none of them, not even "Sloopy", are quite as un-Supreme like as "What the World Needs".

The only thing that gives "World" the edge over "My Guy" is that Diana's lead on "World" is slightly more acceptable than the crap she did on "My Guy". That entire recording is a sin and a shame.

oh i agree! when all the girls were "on" they're without rival. that's sort of my point though. IMO M and F deliver very boring backings on this handful of songs. also these are Frank Wilson productions [[along with Hal Davis). these might have been among the first Frank songs they did. so was working with a new producer the issue? was he trying to be "too soulful" with the productions and instructed the girls to sing extra prim and restrained? were they a bit unsure of what this new producer wanted? did they not have tons of studio time and just needed to crank these out?

[TYK1986]

Agreed. I LOVE Flo's voice and can't for the life of me understand how several members on this forum don't see the potential she had but everyone is entitled to their own opinions and I respect that.

Agree with you on this one! I think Flo needed the right material because she had a fantastic voice! Have you ever noticed how she hits the notes on Stop at the end on the medley version on "Where is the action"!

[RanRan79]

I always think some are even more obsessed with certain people than we are and Youtube is far more vicious than this forum has ever been lol. Love the fact that we all have different views.

I didn't like it when they relegated Cindy even further into the background when they did the joined Temptations version of "Then". I think heaven must have sent you would have been a great inclusion on side 2 of Reflections. Wonder if "the Happening" would have worked on Reflections.

Oh yeah, Youtube gets nasty. I try not to read the comments on Supremes/Diana videos. On Soulful Detroit you have a lot of Motown fans who, even if they aren't much into the Supremes or Diana Ross, have some idea of the history and the facts. On random Youtube videos, you get all kind of folks chiming in with what they think are facts. It's really ridiculous.

"Heaven Must Have Sent You" is another great Cindy performance. I definitely prefer Flo to Cindy, but there were times during Cindy's tenure when her beautiful harmony was the standout of a song.

I think "The Happening" would've worked on Reflections, but understand why it wasn't included, since it had already been on the Greatest Hits, which was probably still selling like hot cakes when the Reflections lp was released.

[RanRan79]

oh i agree! when all the girls were "on" they're without rival. that's sort of my point though. IMO M and F deliver very boring backings on this handful of songs. also these are Frank Wilson productions [[along with Hal Davis). these might have been among the first Frank songs they did. so was working with a new producer the issue? was he trying to be "too soulful" with the productions and instructed the girls to sing extra prim and restrained? were they a bit unsure of what this new producer wanted? did they not have tons of studio time and just needed to crank these out?

Good point about Frank. Maybe he was more heavily involved than Hal, who was involved in Liverpool and Sam Cooke, both of which are great examples of the group's vocal capabilities. Of course that doesn't explain why we got what we did on "What the World Needs" as that was HDH. Everyone is allowed mistakes. Surely the Supremes would have a session every now and then where one or all of them would be "off", especially considering the amount of recordings they did. But for "World" to make an actual album and be considered for single release? Unacceptable.

[RanRan79]

Agree with you on this one! I think Flo needed the right material because she had a fantastic voice! Have you ever noticed how she hits the notes on Stop at the end on the medley version on "Where is the action"!

Flo was like any other singer. She needed development and she needed the right material. Naturally gifted singers are nothing more than just naturally gifted singers, without the right material. Imagine what Diana's career would've been like had she continued to record "I Want A Guy" type stuff.

[nomis]

Flo was like any other singer. She needed development and she needed the right material. Naturally gifted singers are nothing more than just naturally gifted singers, without the right material. Imagine what Diana's career would've been like had she continued to record "I Want A Guy" type stuff.

Flos voice is incredible on the live "Anyone Who Had A Heart" on Meet The Supremes Expanded...it really shows her potential

[TYK1986]

Maybe unpopular but I love Flo's vocals on all the songs of a Bit of Liverpool album and the outtakes from that album. She definitely shined on A hard days night and yes she definitely sounds very good on Anyone who had a heart!

[sup_fan]

Maybe unpopular but I love Flo's vocals on all the songs of a Bit of Liverpool album and the outtakes from that album. She definitely shined on A hard days night and yes she definitely sounds very good on Anyone who had a heart!

i agree that Flo sounds so vibrant and strong on Liverpool. You really get the sense that the 3 girls were having a wildly fun time in the studio. even if the album is less that perfect, it does contain a lot of 3 part harmonies and it's just joyful. maybe tacky or campy lol but there's pure pleasure coming from all 3 girls' voices

maybe of the WDOLG EE bonus tracks are sort of like this too. I Idolize You, Mr Blues, Let me hear you say, that's a funny way, just call me. Now of course none of these songs are in the league of WDOLG, Come See, Symphony, etc. but there's an enjoyment for us fans to them too.

[sup_fan]

Maybe unpopular but I love Flo's vocals on all the songs of a Bit of Liverpool album and the outtakes from that album. She definitely shined on A hard days night and yes she definitely sounds very good on Anyone who had a heart!

and i know i've mentioned this a few other places. but Flo's brief leads on Breathtaking are really just that - breathtaking. her tone is simply lovely. very warm, tender. she's not forcing anything or sounding "pinched" like she sometimes could. I would have loved to hear her and motown explore this more. we think of mary as the ballad singer but certainly flo could too [[i never listen to People cuz 1) i hate that song and 2) i hate the sup arrangement of it)

[nomis]

Is it correct in taraborrellis chmr that "what the world needs now " was assigned a catalog number for a possible single release ? Or was it for a dj promo only release ?

[144man]

It appears it’s always the same ones that are always trashing anything that Diana Ross does it’s too I’m finished it doesn’t sound rightThe sounds don’t match this and that this and this and this is just absolutely ridiculous just enjoy the music don’t destroy it there’s absolutely nothing wrong with any of these songs compared to any singers out there today she does a damn good job and that is a fact

This happens to be a forum, not an appreciation society.

[reese]

Is it correct in taraborrellis chmr that "what the world needs now " was assigned a catalog number for a possible single release ? Or was it for a dj promo only release ?

In his last Diana book, he mentioned that it was assigned a catalog number but its release was cancelled.

In the discography of CHMR as well as DIANA [1985], he specifies that it was a dj only release, which makes more sense. After thinking about it, there's no way Motown could have thought their limp rendition would be a hit single. I wouldn't have even used it as a promo for the album but that's my opinion.

His discography in those books also lists other dj only releases like A HARD DAY'S NIGHT, FUNNY HOW TIME SLIPS AWAY, etc. that were meant to promote the albums they came from.

[144man]

Is it correct in taraborrellis chmr that "what the world needs now " was assigned a catalog number for a possible single release ? Or was it for a dj promo only release ?

"What the World Needs Now is Love" was scheduled for release as Motown M 1125.
"Your Kiss of Fire" was to have been the flip.

[after you]

Diana did a excellent job on my guy she sings with soul and conviction I absolutely love it nothing one can do to change that she had the magic

[RanRan79]

Flos voice is incredible on the live "Anyone Who Had A Heart" on Meet The Supremes Expanded...it really shows her potential

Yeah, that's a good Flo performance. She probably should've sang lead on all the songs that night. Diana was not in the best voice. That, coupled with the song choices, makes it no surprise that the Velvelettes beat them that night.

[RanRan79]

Maybe unpopular but I love Flo's vocals on all the songs of a Bit of Liverpool album and the outtakes from that album. She definitely shined on A hard days night and yes she definitely sounds very good on Anyone who had a heart!

I would definitely say Flo shines throughout the Liverpool album. But I also think the group as a whole shined on it. Too bad the backing band wasn't the Funks. That album would've been a true classic.

[RanRan79]

and i know i've mentioned this a few other places. but Flo's brief leads on Breathtaking are really just that - breathtaking. her tone is simply lovely. very warm, tender. she's not forcing anything or sounding "pinched" like she sometimes could. I would have loved to hear her and motown explore this more. we think of mary as the ballad singer but certainly flo could too [[i never listen to People cuz 1) i hate that song and 2) i hate the sup arrangement of it)

I cracked up at your #1 reason.;)

Even Flo's vocal on the album version of "Makes No Difference Now" shows that she was perfectly capable of leading a ballad.

I think Mary's early 60s voice lent itself so well to those "I'm a young girl in love but now I've lost my guy" type of ballads like "The Tears" and "Baby Don't Go". There's a pleading in her voice that really wraps itself around these type of tunes. As the 60s progressed, like 1965 and on, she developed this jazzy alto that was so perfect for a silky smooth slow cut.

I don't think Flo could ever sound as "girl in love" as Mary did, so her singing "The Tears" or "Baby Don't Go", I don't know if it would've worked. Maybe it would. I don't know. But she definitely could've handled the more bluesy and/or soulful ballads, maybe like some of the stuff Martha and the Vs were recording. The lady really did have a voice drenched in soul.

Diana's interpretation skills allowed her to use her voice in so many different ways to fit so many different songs. She was the one who really could handle just about anything. Not to say that she didn't have weaknesses. She did. There are definitely times when I listen to the group's work and think a particular song didn't play to Diana's strengths, but that same song would've been perfect for either Flo or Mary.

[RanRan79]

This happens to be a forum, not an appreciation society.

Say it again please, for the people in the back!

[benross]

TYK1986, yes, The Happening could have worked on the Reflections album. Here is my idea for a dream version two-disc set.

Disc One
Coda -- This would be unlisted on the album jacket. It would consist of the last 15 seconds or so of the Reflections single that appear on the No. 1s album and would lead directly into:
Forever Came Today
It's Going All The Way To True, True Love
The Happening -- this would be the extended version from the Holland-Dozier-Holland expanded set; however, the initial bars would be a bit softer, and each repetition would build in intensity due to the increased volume as well as the increased instrumentation until reaching a maximum level as the single's introduction begins.
Too Much A Little Too Soon
Misery Makes Its Home In My Heart
Am I Asking Too Much
Bah-Bah-Bah
The Beginning Of The End Of Love
I Can't Make It Alone
Let The Music Play
I'm Gonna Make It I Will Wait For You
Reflections

Disc Two
Up, Up & Away
Primes/Primettes Medley - from The Ed Sullivan Show
Don't Let True Love Die
Some Things You Never Get Used To
Then
In & Out Of Love
A Little Breeze
Blowin' In The Wind
Ode To Billie Joe
Believe In Me
Our Day Will Come
Strangers In The Night
More - the unreleased studio version
Reflections - fromHollywood Palace, the only live recording of this song where Diana got the lyric correct.

Note: this set would include neither What The World Needs Now nor All I Know About You and I would be fine with that!

[nomis]

TYK1986, yes, The Happening could have worked on the Reflections album. Here is my idea for a dream version two-disc set.

Disc One
Coda -- This would be unlisted on the album jacket. It would consist of the last 15 seconds or so of the Reflections single that appear on the No. 1s album and would lead directly into:
Forever Came Today
It's Going All The Way To True, True Love
The Happening -- this would be the extended version from the Holland-Dozier-Holland expanded set; however, the initial bars would be a bit softer, and each repetition would build in intensity due to the increased volume as well as the increased instrumentation until reaching a maximum level as the single's introduction begins.
Too Much A Little Too Soon
Misery Makes Its Home In My Heart
Am I Asking Too Much
Bah-Bah-Bah
The Beginning Of The End Of Love
I Can't Make It Alone
Let The Music Play
I'm Gonna Make It I Will Wait For You
Reflections

Disc Two
Up, Up & Away
Primes/Primettes Medley - from The Ed Sullivan Show
Don't Let True Love Die
Some Things You Never Get Used To
Then
In & Out Of Love
A Little Breeze
Blowin' In The Wind
Ode To Billie Joe
Believe In Me
Our Day Will Come
Strangers In The Night
More - the unreleased studio version
Reflections - fromHollywood Palace, the only live recording of this song where Diana got the lyric correct.

Note: this set would include neither What The World Needs Now nor All I Know About You and I would be fine with that!

She messed up the lyrics of "in and out of love" [[my all time favorite Supremes track) on sullivan and live at talk of town..

[sup_fan]

I cracked up at your #1 reason.;)

Even Flo's vocal on the album version of "Makes No Difference Now" shows that she was perfectly capable of leading a ballad.

I think Mary's early 60s voice lent itself so well to those "I'm a young girl in love but now I've lost my guy" type of ballads like "The Tears" and "Baby Don't Go". There's a pleading in her voice that really wraps itself around these type of tunes. As the 60s progressed, like 1965 and on, she developed this jazzy alto that was so perfect for a silky smooth slow cut.

I don't think Flo could ever sound as "girl in love" as Mary did, so her singing "The Tears" or "Baby Don't Go", I don't know if it would've worked. Maybe it would. I don't know. But she definitely could've handled the more bluesy and/or soulful ballads, maybe like some of the stuff Martha and the Vs were recording. The lady really did have a voice drenched in soul.

Diana's interpretation skills allowed her to use her voice in so many different ways to fit so many different songs. She was the one who really could handle just about anything. Not to say that she didn't have weaknesses. She did. There are definitely times when I listen to the group's work and think a particular song didn't play to Diana's strengths, but that same song would've been perfect for either Flo or Mary.

a month or so ago, there was a post going on around Whisper You Love Me. and i think all 3 girls could have done a lovely and interesting lead on that. Diana's is of course wonderful. and we can all hear Mary doing it. But imagine Flo doing it, using mostly the style from Breathtaking Guy. maybe with a little touch of soul here and there but not too much. don't want to over sing

[TYK1986]

Just popping in because I read Mary and the tears/ baby don't go etc but I recently really started to like "pretty baby" and think Mary had such a great voice during them early years. Sorry completely of topic I know lol.

[TYK1986]

Benross I like how you noticed that it's the only live recording of Reflections where she got the lyrics right lol. Never even noticed it. Now I'll have to dig out all the live versions and listen again. it's such a great song.

Yes the Greatest hits would have sold good anyway without "the Happening" on it. Only problem might have been that the Happening was a year old by the time Reflections LP was released in '68. I think the Happening could have been included if the LP was released before the end of '67. The inclusion of 2 big hits surely would have helped to boost the album sales.

[johnjeb]

a month or so ago, there was a post going on around Whisper You Love Me. and i think all 3 girls could have done a lovely and interesting lead on that. Diana's is of course wonderful. and we can all hear Mary doing it. But imagine Flo doing it, using mostly the style from Breathtaking Guy. maybe with a little touch of soul here and there but not too much. don't want to over sing

Maybe the version Chris Clark did would have suited Florence.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPQn1AuPWsg

[TheMotownManiac]

Keep in mind the public's perception of the groups. I think the public probably already considered the Miracles "Smokey Robinson and...". Smokey was a well known songwriter and producer. He even had his name and photo on someone else's album [[the Tempts) two years before the name change. Although history is occasionally re-written around here, pretty much up until Flo's exit, the public and the industry considered the Supremes a true group, with three identifiable singers. I wasn't around back then, but it's hard for me to believe that anyone outside of some of the most diehard fans would've batted an eye if Pete or Ronnie or Bobby were replaced. Renaming a true group had to come with some backlash. Of course all is forgiven when the music is great, as proven when the Supremes teamed up with the Tempts, as well as the release of "Love Child" and "Someday".






I have a differing view:
It was my experience that
”the public” didn’t think any different between the two groups. Diana did 99% of the leads, only one regular studio album had a non-ross lead on it, and that was the very weak, in my opinion, come and get these memories. I didn’t know one person that liked it I just about everyone hated it. I don’t think the public ever thought about the Supremes being a “true group”or anything like that at all. I don’t think people even went there. It’s not like the Beatles or the stones or even the Beach boys or the mamas and the Papas…… The Supremes were a lead singer with two background singers and they were always that way from the time they hit. Most people never heard mary or Florence on anything but a few words here and there - if they were paying attention that closely, which I don’t think they were. I didn’t know many who were. I didn’t know one person that dissected whether or not this was a true group or a lead and a background group or anything like that they were just the Supremes that was just all there was to it. I don’t think anybody went the for and I don’t think many gave much of a damn about Smokey Robinson and the miracles either. They just played the records and that was that.

no one I knew thought negatively about the name change and I never experienced any backlash or heard of anything until decades later. However, in the 90’s, I did meet a fan who had a catatonic fit because diana ross’ name appeared separately from the Supremes on the TCB titles. I didn’t witness any industry backlash and I don’t believe there was any. I can think of no examples I can provide proof that there wasn’t: the first single, reflections, radio was on it like a duck on a June bug and it had adds similar to the previous four #1’s. On the black chart, it far out performed its predecessor before thename change. I don’t think anyone gave a damn one way or another - fans or industry. They were a mega-group that moved a ton of product - “ the industry” was not emotionally invested at all in the group, or any group for that matter beyond what they sold because that’s what the industry cared about: sales. I never read one thing in the trades that was even slightly questionable about the name change The first single was a smash, the first album was the biggest Album Motown ever had for years…There was no apparent hesitation from radio from its chart performance at all. Ditto in my opinion, the weak follow up in an out of love. Of course when it Failed to perform like the previous singles, radio grew soft on it but that is normal for every record. A month after the name change, the greatest hits album came out and sold like crazy and was in just about everyone’s home that I knew and I never heard one casual fan say anything whatsoever about the name change.

All this scrutiny happened after Dreamgirl when we were given a villainess. There WAS discussion among the supremes nutcase fans [[of which I was one) but there certainly was no backlash. Everybody just kept buying everything. Casual fans stopped buying the albums eventually because they weren’t enjoying the newer ones or a lot of the singles as the casual fan, even the mid-level fans, became fans because of the HDH Ross-led classic records that were coming out every 2 1/2 to 3 months. Those same people had absolutely no interest in some things you never get used to or forever came today or the composer all the albums that contained them.



I was devastated when Flo disappeared and the non-Flo showed up everywhere on TV like she belonged or something. I didn’t really accept that Flo was gone until the reflections album came out And Cindy’s name appeared in the liner notes as it always been there. The die hards had lots to say initially and most of it wasn’t good, but the general public didn’t even notice. The general public didn’t know any of their names until the name change. I don’t even think their names were mentioned on a gogo or HDH. The public learned who diana ross was only after the name change.

now there was plenty of backlash when Diana left the group and some of it continues 51 years later. The name change? Nothing basically.

Oh I forgot, that same TCB friend was fit to be tied because the greatest hits album featured the name change even though all of the songs on it were recorded as just The Supremes. He likes everything to be tidy and “correct “and this did not fit that description at all. I doubt very much, that to this very day, he will wear white shoes after Labor Day because “ you aren’t supposed to.”

[nomis]

Well written but I disagree on certain points to quote oprah " I had difficulty accepting Cindy myself.."..to quote our forum's late marv when I once wrote that diana was captivating on the sullivan " the happening " performance he replied " I wasn't watching her my eyes were on Mary..".....sadly we don't have the full videography of Supremes tv interviews but Mary and flo did speak..they had their own fans..they were school girl friends who represented the american dream..they were perceived by many fans as a unit..sisters..yes refections hit big but news spread slowly in that era but certainly the word on the streets of Detroit was flo had been done wrong plus the name change hdh exit and the more superglitz of the group did turn some people off.

[TheMotownManiac]

I would venture that Motown waited too long to release the album.

It might have done better if they had released it in 1967, around the time of the title track or IN AND OUT OF LOVE. But they waited to release it until March 1968, and on the heels of a less-than-successful single, FOREVER CAME TODAY. Interest that the hit singles would have garnered was most likely gone and also, a lot of fans were probably still grabbing the GREATEST HITS collection.

But #18 on the charts and a 28-week chart span isn't really all that bad, is it? If anything, it shows that the girls' automatic hit machine had slowed down.

I totally agree but they couldn’t release it with the reflections single because Rogers and Hart was still on the chart, a gogo is still on the chart, HDH I think was still on, and a very expensive Greatest hits came out. I don’t know, but I imagine they didn’t expect greatest hits to be that Uber successful… Big? Certainly- Record stores in St. Louis had entire bins with nothing but the mono or the stereo. Plus, And I think this is big, I don’t think they expected the two singles following reflections to peak at number nine and number 28. They must have planned for them to be bigger As the previous 15 singles were all hits.

And I agree that 28 weeks is pretty good for an album that was a disappointment to most. I was disappointed but there was lots I liked there. Still, the HDH magic was missing. The sound was more mature as was Ross’ voice. I venture to guess a lot of people that bought this album never bought another Supremes album. The Love Child album stalling at 14 is proof of that. The single was SO huge, it’s album should have done way better and charted longer.

[RanRan79]

I have a differing view:
It was my experience that
”the public” didn’t think any different between the two groups. Diana did 99% of the leads, only one regular studio album had a non-ross lead on it, and that was the very weak, in my opinion, come and get these memories. I didn’t know one person that liked it I just about everyone hated it. I don’t think the public ever thought about the Supremes being a “true group”or anything like that at all. I don’t think people even went there. It’s not like the Beatles or the stones or even the Beach boys or the mamas and the Papas…… The Supremes were a lead singer with two background singers and they were always that way from the time they hit.

I cannot disagree with your memories regarding the Supremes. That was your experience. As I pointed out, I was not around during this time and can only go on the evidence of oral recollections and what has been written. Based off of the recollections of many others I am aware that the Supremes were a unit in the eyes of the world. Yes, they had a lead singer, but each Supreme was popular in her own right during the days of Flo. No, everyone did not know each of their names. The fact that you recall the people you knew didn't know Diana's name until the name change is more to my point of the Supremes being viewed as an equal unit. The fact that when Flo left it was "big" news and the press didn't yawn is also evidence that the individual members of the group mattered. Whether or not radio programmers had an issue with the name change [[which was the question that prompted the response you quote) is only something that can be speculated on. But IMO there is no denying that the Supremes were viewed in an entirely different way than the Miracles and Martha and the Vandellas. I did not become a Supreme fan until I was a teenager, but I knew the names of Flo and Mary, alongside Diana, because the adults in my family spoke of them. All these years later and I still have not heard a single person offline mention the names of Ronnie, Pete, Bobby, Roz, Annette or Betty. The Supremes were a true group in the eyes of the general public, not a singer who grabbed a couple of background vocalists for no good reason. My opinion stands.

[RanRan79]

Well written but I disagree on certain points to quote oprah " I had difficulty accepting Cindy myself.."..to quote our forum's late marv when I once wrote that diana was captivating on the sullivan " the happening " performance he replied " I wasn't watching her my eyes were on Mary..".....sadly we don't have the full videography of Supremes tv interviews but Mary and flo did speak..they had their own fans..they were school girl friends who represented the american dream..they were perceived by many fans as a unit..sisters..yes refections hit big but news spread slowly in that era but certainly the word on the streets of Detroit was flo had been done wrong plus the name change hdh exit and the more superglitz of the group did turn some people off.

Yeah, maybe it depended on where a person lived, etc, as to how they saw the group. Diana was the focal point from "Where" on because she sang lead. No different than any other group. Eventually Gordy planned Diana's ascension to DRATS, but right up until the end the Supremes were just that...the Supremes. That's why the idea of Gordy sort of flippantly getting rid of Flo as if she didn't matter is bunk. Gordy may not have been Flo's biggest fan, but he recognized her contribution to the group, including her popularity. Getting rid of any of them was always going to be a last resort. If at any point during 1964-1967 Diana Ross had walked across any stage, television or live, without Flo and Mary, there would have been a problem. She was not the group.

[floyjoy678]

I cannot disagree with your memories regarding the Supremes. That was your experience. As I pointed out, I was not around during this time and can only go on the evidence of oral recollections and what has been written. Based off of the recollections of many others I am aware that the Supremes were a unit in the eyes of the world. Yes, they had a lead singer, but each Supreme was popular in her own right during the days of Flo. No, everyone did not know each of their names. The fact that you recall the people you knew didn't know Diana's name until the name change is more to my point of the Supremes being viewed as an equal unit. The fact that when Flo left it was "big" news and the press didn't yawn is also evidence that the individual members of the group mattered. Whether or not radio programmers had an issue with the name change [[which was the question that prompted the response you quote) is only something that can be speculated on. But IMO there is no denying that the Supremes were viewed in an entirely different way than the Miracles and Martha and the Vandellas. I did not become a Supreme fan until I was a teenager, but I knew the names of Flo and Mary, alongside Diana, because the adults in my family spoke of them. All these years later and I still have not heard a single person offline mention the names of Ronnie, Pete, Bobby, Roz, Annette or Betty. The Supremes were a true group in the eyes of the general public, not a singer who grabbed a couple of background vocalists for no good reason. My opinion stands.[/INDENT]

Well said. Ask anyone in my family who their favorite Supreme was and they'll tell you Flo or Jean.

[floyjoy678]

Yeah, maybe it depended on where a person lived, etc, as to how they saw the group. Diana was the focal point from "Where" on because she sang lead. No different than any other group. Eventually Gordy planned Diana's ascension to DRATS, but right up until the end the Supremes were just that...the Supremes. That's why the idea of Gordy sort of flippantly getting rid of Flo as if she didn't matter is bunk. Gordy may not have been Flo's biggest fan, but he recognized her contribution to the group, including her popularity. Getting rid of any of them was always going to be a last resort. If at any point during 1964-1967 Diana Ross had walked across any stage, television or live, without Flo and Mary, there would have been a problem. She was not the group.

It was all strategically planned. I really think Gordy wanted Flo out much earlier but he saw that the public loved all three of them. I notice that the singles in 1966 really have Flo and Mary turned down and half of their backing vocals were muted on You Keep Me Hanging On. Its just too coincidental to me that they were turned down so low but once they became Diana Ross and The Supremes [[Andantes) the backgrounds were back to being loud and clear. I really think Gordy was trying to diminish them in little ways like that so that only Diana would matter and the other two could be expendable. Though they were still the Supremes up until Flo left, it was obvious the dynamics had changed by May '67 and it was also obvious where things were heading.

[sup_fan]

Maybe the version Chris Clark did would have suited Florence.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPQn1AuPWsg

i agree - Chris' version has more sass to it which could have worked well for Flo. But i'd still like to hear her work on developing that short segment from Breathtaking Guy. could that line she sang and how beautifully she sang it be translated into a full song?

[floyjoy678]

i agree - Chris' version has more sass to it which could have worked well for Flo. But i'd still like to hear her work on developing that short segment from Breathtaking Guy. could that line she sang and how beautifully she sang it be translated into a full song?

The potential with Flo was definitely there. It just was never worked on. Have you heard the alternate version for It Makes No Difference Now? That's a style of Flo I'd like to have heard more of.

[sup_fan]

the record buying public typically focuses on the person singing the melody. your ear is trained to follow this element of the music. they're communicating the lyrics of the song. therefore they are often positioned forward of others so that tv cameras and all can follow them.

it isn't because they're necessarily THE STAR. it would be odd to hear someone singing and not visually see them.

When groups like the Stones or Beatles appeared on Sullivan, you typically had the cameras mostly on whomever was doing the lead. sure there are shots around to the others but they can't be for too long. otherwise you're watching someone drum or play keyboards but hearing a voice from someone and somewhere else

another example is the Carpenters. Karen was originally the drummer of the group and that was her real passion. her real gift though was her beautiful voice and phrasing so she was also the lead singer. For a while they tried having her do her leads from the drum set but that just didn't work. on stage and on tv she needed to be standing out closer to the audience, closer to the tv cameras.

But then they too suffered from the same old show biz problem of someone being singled out. Richard Carpenter was the mastermind behind the group - he arranged some of their hits, composed some of them, helped guide the style and direction of the group. yet he was usually stuck over to the side playing the keyboards

[sup_fan]

Diana, Mary and Florence had a combination of things most other female singing groups at the time did - strong, engaging personalities, charisma, innate style, singing talent.

At their age, the 3 of them really were unique. their personalities came across the stage more strongly than typical performers their age. Of course the Artist Dev program honed this and polished it. But look at their TAMI performance and then look at similar groups from that time on Shindig or Hullabaloo. even the other motown acts.

*there's a great clip of the Crystals doing Da Doo Ron Ron on Shindig and while La La has some facial expressions and is slightly engaging to watch doing her lead, the others are just sort of there. they smile and look pretty. but just sort of sing the song

*MRATV doing Dancing in the Street on Sullivan. the girls look pretty, sound good. they smile nicely and all. But there's something in their expressions that's a bit lifeless.

DMF just had some sort of spark. That's why IMO the group catapulted above the other singing groups of the time. combine that with the songwriting talent of HDH and you have perfection

but the three girls still are individuals and while they all had a spark, Diana's was just a bigger and hotter spark

[Spreadinglove21]

I love Diana's version of What the World Needs Now is Love on the Reflections album. It's the second best version of this song. The best version is Diana's version on her Christmas album. She was older and wiser about love and it shines through in that version. Diana Ross is magical. She is the voice of the heart. She is the voice of love.