Motown 25 question

[marybrewster]

I know every inch of this has been dissected for the past 30+ years, but here's one question I don't know that's ever been brought up or answered.

My understanding was that Diana, Mary, and Cindy were going to perform a "hits medley", which I believe was to include "Stop!" and "Baby Love". There were to be 4 snippets in total.

Rehearsals didn't go well, and they ended up only performing "Someday".

If they were to have stuck to the original plan, I assume Diana would have still come out to "Ain't No Mountain". But then, would she have brought Mary and Cindy out to start the medley? Would they have started with "Someday" then went into the medley?

As it was, "Someday" was a perfect song to end the show, but I don't know where the medley logistically would have fit?

Was "Someday" a part of the medley? Or was it a medley, then "Someday"?

[reese]

I think it would have been the hits medley and then SOMEDAY for the big show finale.

[jobeterob]

That was so disappointing when it happened - any kind of live medley even without proper rehearsal would have been so welcome. If Diana made that choice, it was a bad one.

However I’ve always thought and I believe one of HDH said this - that Mary had by 1983 had all sorts of bad luck and bad choices befall her, it was clear there would be no solo career of consequence - and she was going to act up and cause trouble, no matter what they did

[reese]

That was so disappointing when it happened - any kind of live medley even without proper rehearsal would have been so welcome. If Diana made that choice, it was a bad one.

However I’ve always thought and I believe one of HDH said this - that Mary had by 1983 had all sorts of bad luck and bad choices befall her, it was clear there would be no solo career of consequence - and she was going to act up and cause trouble, no matter what they did

From what I've read, the rehearsal of the entire Supremes segment took place a mere 30 minutes before the audience was to be let into the auditorium. I don't know if this is true. But if it is, why it was done so close to tape time is anyone's guess. Also, why wasn't the Supremes' medley pre-taped like some of the others were? Maybe their participation was confirmed too late.

With so little time to work with, I think Diana made the right call to go with one song, as opposed to an unfamiliar medley.

[jobeterob]

That was very unfortunate - Diana probably knew how ragged it would look if they went ahead. My disappointment was speaking.

[daviddh]

I had read Diana was ill. So rehearsals were quick as she wanted to save her voice for the actual show.
They did rehearse and then rehearse without Diana.
At some point the medley was cancelled.
To me it would make more sense to cancel Ain't no mountain and go with the Supremes reunion full throttle.just my opinion.
I did read mary was acting up and changed into her red-hot dress.
As things were left.being professional singers I would think they could get thru one show together. If I were Diana I would have demanded a reshoot on the Supremes set.i would have never let that go as is.....but will give credit as it's also the way it's edited

[Ollie9]

Diana quote “The girls will be happy with a medley”. Discussion over. Probably not the best way to go about creating harmonious relations.
Is it any wonder the RTL tour went pear shaped. :eek:

[Bluebrock]

That was so disappointing when it happened - any kind of live medley even without proper rehearsal would have been so welcome. If Diana made that choice, it was a bad one.

However I’ve always thought and I believe one of HDH said this - that Mary had by 1983 had all sorts of bad luck and bad choices befall her, it was clear there would be no solo career of consequence - and she was going to act up and cause trouble, no matter what they did

Was it Lamont Dozier who said that? I recall an interview with him where he questioned Mary's work ethic. I wonder if it was the same interview?

[Bluebrock]

Diana quote “The girls will be happy with a medley”. Discussion over. Probably not the best way to go about creating harmonious relations.
Is it any wonder the RTL tour went pear shaped. :eek:

Diana could have handled things better for sure, but she had invested money in the RTL project unlike Mary so she potentially had more to lose, and of course ultimately did lose more. This was around the time Diana was going through a very tough time personally. I will not go into detail here, but it contributed to the shambles that became RTL. It was one of my final gigs with Diana. I had had enough and wanted out, but i did not want to leave whilst she was in such a bad place. However, i did leave and i look back on it and wish i had handled things differently. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
All this does not excuse Mary's behaviour which did her no credit whatsoever. She knew Diana was sick but she had an agenda and was determined to draw blood. Both ladies behaviour left much to be desired. That is all i am willing to say on the subject. It's time to move on.....

[marybrewster]

I've read it was pretty difficult to get Diana to come back to Motown 25, so I'm sure they wanted to get their money's worth. They [[Suzanne?) probably promised Diana a solo [[well deserved) in exchange for the Supremes medley. Remember, at the time, no one was paid for this?

[sup_fan]

ok - i'm gonna kick the hornet's nest :p

1. we have Mary's account of what happened and then various 3rd parties. so we really only have partial views into what was happening that day

2. IF [[and i do definitely mean IF) Diana said "the girls will be happy..." Mary and Cindy are fully to blame for that. in 1983 Mary was 39 and Cindy was 44. if neither women had figured out how the hell to speak up or say "hey wait a minute!!" then for fuck's sake!! what kind of idiots are they? if they DIDN'T agree with that decision, say so. Maybe they did and were overruled. we don't know. but according to the sources Diana took charge and M and C were the spineless saps that allowed it

3. Mary speaks repeatedly about how people were goading her backstage to 'do things.' Unless she had somehow indicated that she was WANTING to do things, i seriously doubt all of these people [[many whom she hadn't seen in years) would simply descend on her and coax her to do things. especially things that could be viewed as unprofessional for a performer. IMO [[and i'm just stating my opinion) Mary planned to use this special as a platform to display herself on a national stage - something she hadn't had access to in years. But her behavior was inexcusable. she is just as to blame for the mess

4. post show Mary went on a media blitz, similar to her using the RTL debacle to gain access to every interview and talk show. her effort to self promote tarnished the sup image too.

5. Diana had no interest in the event and it showed. she was reluctant to return for the special. frankly the lack of gratitude that she often displays towards her origins is rather pathetic. i'm not saying she has to know the history of every song the sups sang or that she should remember every obscure memory and share with the fans. But the music and work she did with the supremes provided her the platform to grow into DIANA ROSS. there should be the willingness to acknowledge it's importance. until much more recently, that was not something very evident.

[BayouMotownMan]

Diana could have handled things better for sure, but she had invested money in the project unlike Mary so she potentially had more to lose, and of course ultimately did lose more. This was around the time Diana was going through a very tough time personally. I will not go into detail here, but it contributed to the shambles that became RTL. It was one of my final gigs with Diana. I had had enough and wanted out, but i did not want to leave whilst she was in such a bad place. However, i did leave and i look back on it and wish i had handled things differently. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
All this does not excuse Mary's behaviour which did her no credit whatsoever. She knew Diana was sick but she had an agenda and was determined to draw blood. Both ladies behaviour left much to be desired. That is all i am willing to say on the subject. It's time to move on.....

Diana Ross invested no money into Motown 25. She had repeatedly refused the request to appear and only relented at the very last minute. Even though Michael Jackson was now a bigger star she demanded to make an entrance and to close the show.

[Ollie9]

‘Tis a shame lessons were never learnt from the Motown 25 fiasco.
I’ve never been quite sure if Mary had planned to wear that rather stunning red dress from the beginning or it was in response to Diana’s rather dismissive behaviour of her and Cindy. We know of the sound check and plans to follow Diana in moving forward. What though of that glitzy glamorous red frock.
I have to say Marys strut onto the stage makes M25 essential viewing. Along with the other genuinely brilliant performances of course. :)

[marybrewster]

Motown 25 was the Michael Jsckson show. "The shove heard around the world" pales in comparison to MJ's "Billie Jean" and moonwalk. It's not even a Motown song, and the inclusion was the only way to get him to say yes.

I think in a roundabout way, that's why so little thought or effort was put into the Supremes "reunion". Let's just throw Diana, Mary, and Cindy onstage and see how it all plays out.

[marybrewster]

For the record, the "shove" quote was meant in jest.

[Bluebrock]

Diana Ross invested no money into Motown 25. She had repeatedly refused the request to appear and only relented at the very last minute. Even though Michael Jackson was now a bigger star she demanded to make an entrance and to close the show.

I am referring to RTL not Motown 25, but i do concede that i may not have made myself crystal clear in my previous post. Apologies for any misunderstanding.

[sup_fan]

there are wonderful moments on Motown 25 and major letdowns. the highlights are the J5 reunion, Billie Jean, the Tops/Tempts battle and some other big segments

it was a pathetic travesty that Mary Wells, Martha and Jr Walker got all of 10 seconds each. inexcusable.

another wonderful moment is the 2 seconds or so of DMC arm-in-arm on stage. then it goes downhill

[sup_fan]

and regardless of if Mary was supposed to wear silver/grey/white/black, her entrance during Someday was stunning!

[carlo]

there are wonderful moments on Motown 25 and major letdowns. the highlights are the J5 reunion, Billie Jean, the Tops/Tempts battle and some other big segments

it was a pathetic travesty that Mary Wells, Martha and Jr Walker got all of 10 seconds each. inexcusable.


Totally agree. I've always loved the Debarge and High Inergy medley as well. That member of High Inergy in the green dress was werkin' it!! [[Can't recall her name at the moment)!

Supposedly DMC all agreed to wear white/silver, ahead of the taping. It was Mary's last minute decision to change into a red gown, and you can easily see the sense of pride and the 'take that' look on her face, when she slowly enters the stage, separate from Cindy. That decision was her saying to Diana, "You used to always change your clothes on us at the last minute, back in the day, so now I am getting you back, girl!" It is what it is. It's very clear that neither of them went into the Motown 25 reunion with peace in their hearts. Only Cindy was her usual angelic self. :)

[jobeterob]

there are wonderful moments on Motown 25 and major letdowns. the highlights are the J5 reunion, Billie Jean, the Tops/Tempts battle and some other big segments

it was a pathetic travesty that Mary Wells, Martha and Jr Walker got all of 10 seconds each. inexcusable.

another wonderful moment is the 2 seconds or so of DMC arm-in-arm on stage. then it goes downhill

I love the 2 seconds comment. That's how I felt as well.

I often wonder what regrets either of them have about the goings on surrounding M25 and RTL. There were no winners and if anything, both events damaged the Supremes and their saleability. In the end, particularly Mary lost - because she needed the name Supremes and she needed people to want them. For Diana, the loss was more of a PR nature.

[sup_fan]

i think they both lost, in a sense.

Mary needed the Sup name and the ability to later reunite with DR. Imagine the reunion possibility had there not been the M25 problem or the DReamgirl book?

Diana Ross didn't need to exacerbate the "bitch" persona. People already had some concerns about her attitude and all and general public opinion was influenced by this and other things in the 80s.

[Ollie9]

In truth, l would rather have seen a Jean,Mary and Cindy reunion then the debacle that was. At least it might have proved a real celebration of the music. Diana clearly wanted as little as possible to do with this reunion and the result speaks for itself. It’s hard to believe two grown women could act this way.
As already mentioned, the Supremes brand sadly took a huge blow that night.

[Ollie9]

it was a pathetic travesty that Mary Wells, Martha and Jr Walker got all of 10 seconds each. inexcusable.

This was indeed the biggest travesty of the evening sup. It was also a disgrace that James Jameson, a guy who helped shape the sound of Motown was not even invited and ended up sitting in the gods with a ticket he had bought himself. Where also were the Velvelettes, Marvelettes etc etc. Hmmm.

[floyjoy678]

The problem with Diana and Mary is they never actually hashed out any of their issues before this and they really should have. They had horrible and unhealthy communication with each other going all the way back to the early days. If they had better communication skills with each other perhaps things would have been differently. I love all three original Supremes so I always try to look at each of their perspectives. Diana was in an awkward position for Motown 25 and was clearly under the weather while Mary went from being in one of the biggest groups in the world to lip synching to Diana's vocals on overseas television. Add that they've always been incredibly competitive with each other and years of unaddressed friction and you have the reunion at Motown 25. Neither of them won. And us fans lost out on a lot from then on.

[BobbyC]

Ollie's post made me look up the Supremes' reunion on Youtube to jog my memory--and now I have a question for you all. During the end of DR singing Ain't No Mountain, I could swear that I hear Mary's voice on backing vocals. Does anybody know if that is her? Last night I saw Patti Labelle's Live from NYC taping again, and on some of her songs I could swear I hear Nona's voice in the background [[not taking about Release Yourself). Anybody know?

[reese]

Ollie's post made me look up the Supremes' reunion on Youtube to jog my memory--and now I have a question for you all. During the end of DR singing Ain't No Mountain, I could swear that I hear Mary's voice on backing vocals. Does anybody know if that is her? Last night I saw Patti Labelle's Live from NYC taping again, and on some of her songs I could swear I hear Nona's voice in the background [[not taking about Release Yourself). Anybody know?

I don't think Mary or Nona contributed any vocals besides the songs we actually see them taking part in. I don't hear them doing anything extra but never say never, I guess.

Diana's backup vocalists at MOTOWN 25 were her regulars, Bobby Glenn and Sharon Wade.

[BobbyC]

Carlo--the girl in High Inergy that you are referring to is the late Linda Howard. She was a Soul Train dancer before she joining HI

[BobbyC]

Thanks, Reese!

[BobbyC]

Jobeterob--I see the whole Mary/DR thing completely differently. I think Mary profited HUGELY from the Motown 25 disaster. People like me, who never knew the Supremes when they were huge, learned who Mary was from this special. I think Mary used the incident deftly, painting herself as a victim while leaving out her part in the fracas.The whole thing painted the way for Dreamgirl, expertly IMO. It got people like me interested in their story. Mary's name became high profile. leading to her book. Just my take.

[marybrewster]

Thank you all for your healthy responses to my question and thread. It was a legit question, even if the topic has been hashed and rehashed 1000 times. Everyone has been very respectful and it's appreciated.

Did I hear that Scherrie Payne was in the audience for Motown 25? Or was that Motown 45? Or maybe both?


The slight of Mary Wells and Martha Reeves is just an indication that it was less about a celebration of the legacy, and more about a ratings win. I mean, Adam Ant? Linda Ronstadt? Where was Gladys Horton? Couldn't they have given her 30 seconds?

[BobbyC]

I think Scherrie was at Motown 45, not 25 but I am not certain.

[carlo]

Carlo--the girl in High Inergy that you are referring to is the late Linda Howard. She was a Soul Train dancer before she joining HI

Thanks BobbyC! That's right.

[jobeterob]

Jobeterob--I see the whole Mary/DR thing completely differently. I think Mary profited HUGELY from the Motown 25 disaster. People like me, who never knew the Supremes when they were huge, learned who Mary was from this special. I think Mary used the incident deftly, painting herself as a victim while leaving out her part in the fracas.The whole thing painted the way for Dreamgirl, expertly IMO. It got people like me interested in their story. Mary's name became high profile. leading to her book. Just my take.

That makes sense. But their booking fell - especially the "lesser Supremes". The Supremes, all of them, after RTL were seen as unable to draw crowds. I remember reading that Mary was hurt most of all by that.

But M25 may have jogged The Supremes back to the forefront for a while - as well as all the Motown acts.

And Mary got pretty adept at playing any angle to keep her name out there. She was a survivor. And I recall at some of the awards Diana got in more recent years, she acknowledged all the Supremes but "especially Mary Wilson" for their contributions.

[BobbyC]

Hi Jobeterob-- yeah i was talking about the Motown 25 thang, not RTL. I think the whole RTL tour hurt EVERYBODY. There were no winners there.

[daviddh]

I understand why Diana didn't want to go back to Motown ...but....
What was the deal between her and Mary.
It was 13 years ago.geez.put ur big girl panties on

[jobeterob]

Has anyone ever thought that they were thinking something like -I’m 40 years old now and I’m not gonna be screwed around anymore - as in,Mary didn’t want to play 2nd or 3rd fiddle and Diana was beyond listening to Berry

[marybrewster]

Has anyone ever thought that they were thinking something like -I’m 40 years old now and I’m not gonna be screwed around anymore - as in,Mary didn’t want to play 2nd or 3rd fiddle and Diana was beyond listening to Berry

To your point, by 1983 Mary saw herself as a solo act. I can't imagine what she was thinking, but I wonder if the thought of "I'm beyond singing oohs and aahs behind Diana Ross" crossed her mind.

I think about acts like Destiny's Child that have had successful reunions. Clearly Beyonce' is light years beyond Kelly and Michelle; both have carved out successful careers for themselves, but each know their "place" when it comes time to get back together.

[marybrewster]

I understand why Diana didn't want to go back to Motown ...but....
What was the deal between her and Mary.
It was 13 years ago.geez.put ur big girl panties on

I think the last several years of DRATS laid the groundwork for their future relationship. In the Supremes, with Flo, they were "sisters"; childhood friends that captured a dream.

Once Flo left, they became co-workers. No more sharing hotel rooms or dressing rooms. Diana was focused on her solo career, and Mary was focused on being, well, Mary.

By all of their accounts, the last few years weren't easy for anyone. Diana wanted out, Mary wanted the champagne to flow like it was 1966. They grew up and grew apart.

It happens.

[daviddh]

Mary brewster.
Right on point. Totally agree.
Just life.once flo was gone. The dynamics changed......and bg was in total control

[marybrewster]

Not that Diana and Mary didn't once have a special relationship, but I look at it like this: Diana's tenure with the Supremes was 10 years. Of a 60 year career. So basically 1/6.

Mary has, for all intents and purposes, been a Supreme for all 60 years.

Another thing: when you look at the angle of "coworkers", how many of us have worked with marvelous people? And then someone quits or moves on. The promises of staying in touch; "let's to lunch" is hot out of the gate, but eventually you lose touch.

Think about your BEST FRIENDS FOREVER from grade school or high school? I'm 30 years on, and talk to a handful on a regular basis, mostly through social media.

So while their lives and experiences are so much different than ours, perhaps they're not much different at all.

[Ollie9]

Not that Diana and Mary didn't once have a special relationship, but I look at it like this: Diana's tenure with the Supremes was 10 years. Of a 60 year career. So basically 1/6.

Mary has, for all intents and purposes, been a Supreme for all 60 years.

Another thing: when you look at the angle of "coworkers", how many of us have worked with marvelous people? And then someone quits or moves on. The promises of staying in touch; "let's to lunch" is hot out of the gate, but eventually you lose touch.

Think about your BEST FRIENDS FOREVER from grade school or high school? I'm 30 years on, and talk to a handful on a regular basis, mostly through social media.

So while their lives and experiences are so much different than ours, perhaps they're not much different at all.

As Diana once sung beautifully mb, “We’re Always Saying Goodbye”. :)

[Roberta75]

Not that Diana and Mary didn't once have a special relationship, but I look at it like this: Diana's tenure with the Supremes was 10 years. Of a 60 year career. So basically 1/6.

Mary has, for all intents and purposes, been a Supreme for all 60 years.

Another thing: when you look at the angle of "coworkers", how many of us have worked with marvelous people? And then someone quits or moves on. The promises of staying in touch; "let's to lunch" is hot out of the gate, but eventually you lose touch.

Think about your BEST FRIENDS FOREVER from grade school or high school? I'm 30 years on, and talk to a handful on a regular basis, mostly through social media.

So while their lives and experiences are so much different than ours, perhaps they're not much different at all.

The way I see it now Diana and Mary were once coworkers. Mary would like to be a lot closer. Diana is fine with it the way it is but will be friendly when they occassionally meet.

[marybrewster]

and regardless of if Mary was supposed to wear silver/grey/white/black, her entrance during Someday was stunning!

Maybe she should have worn the one sleeve "Ink Spot" dress? Lol.

Now, did Mary show up to M25 in the red dress, or did she change before the performance?

[reese]

Maybe she should have worn the one sleeve "Ink Spot" dress? Lol.

Now, did Mary show up to M25 in the red dress, or did she change before the performance?

Mary wore a black dress for the speech that she and Cindy gave saluting some Motowners. She changed into the red dress for the finale.

[jobeterob]

There was some story about Mary and Cindy climbing through some bushes to make an entrance because nobody knew who they were - I think that was from her book Dreamgirl

[marybrewster]

There was some story about Mary and Cindy climbing through some bushes to make an entrance because nobody knew who they were - I think that was from her book Dreamgirl

I think that was at one of Diana's concerts? Mary climbed through the bushes with Tukessa to get on the red carpet so they could see her "Godmother". Diana refused to recieve them, and they left with a tear in Turkessa's eye.

It was caught on camera, and Mary had a twig in her glitter wig.

[reese]

There was some story about Mary and Cindy climbing through some bushes to make an entrance because nobody knew who they were - I think that was from her book Dreamgirl

That was in CALL HER MISS ROSS. Supposedly they had already gone into the venue. But then decided to fake an entrance and went back to the front, trying to generate some interest from the red carpet paparazzi. One of their escorts yelled out "Look, it's two of the Supremes" and the paparazzi started taking photos.

[jobeterob]

That was in CALL HER MISS ROSS. Supposedly they had already gone into the venue. But then decided to fake an entrance and went back to the front, trying to generate some interest from the red carpet paparazzi. One of their escorts yelled out "Look, it's two of the Supremes" and the paparazzi started taking photos.

Right! Cindy’s husband I think. If the story is true

[reese]

I think that was at one of Diana's concerts? Mary climbed through the bushes with Tukessa to get on the red carpet so they could see her "Godmother". Diana refused to recieve them, and they left with a tear in Turkessa's eye.

It was caught on camera, and Mary had a twig in her glitter wig.

This happened when Mary and Turkessa decided to attend Diana's WORKIN' OVERTIME concert in LA. Although Diana wouldn't leave her dressing room backstage, they decided to Spago, where Diana's after-party was being held. Mary said there were instances where other parts of the restuarant would be open when a private party was taking place. In this case, however, they were turned away again, conveniently in front of a crew from ENTERTAINMENT TONIGHT.

No bushes this time. ;)

[marybrewster]

Combining the two does makes for one good story, lol.

[Ollie9]

This happened when Mary and Turkessa decided to attend Diana's WORKIN' OVERTIME concert in LA. Although Diana wouldn't leave her dressing room backstage, they decided to Spago, where Diana's after-party was being held. Mary said there were instances where other parts of the restuarant would be open when a private party was taking place. In this case, however, they were turned away again, conveniently in front of a crew from ENTERTAINMENT TONIGHT.

No bushes this time. ;)

This is rather touching. Mary wanting to congratulate Diana and share in the celebrations with her. That’s what you call true sisterhood. What a shame such a selfless act was misconstrued. :[[

[jobeterob]

3 years after Dreamgirl; it seemed like Diana had it with the required sensationalism and media interviews Mary had to do. Little did she know what was coming with RTL.

Does anyone think she was justified in declining to receive Mary?

Kind of like the Queen Mother refused to receive the Duke of Windsor - “after what he’d done”

[reese]

3 years after Dreamgirl; it seemed like Diana had it with the required sensationalism and media interviews Mary had to do. Little did she know what was coming with RTL.

Does anyone think she was justified in declining to receive Mary?

Kind of like the Queen Mother refused to receive the Duke of Windsor - “after what he’d done”

When I first read the story, I thought Diana could have met with them, if only for Turkessa's sake. But Diana had already stated for publication that her heart had been broken and she found it hard to stay close. I gather things have gotten better as I recall a later interview where Mary said Diana and Turkessa do communicate. I hope it is true.

[jobeterob]

Me too .......

[marybrewster]

Is Turkessa REALLY Diana's Goddaughter? Or is it like one of those Whitney Houston things where everyone and their sister is Nippy's Gmama.

I mean, if Diana didn't attend Mary's wedding, there's little chance she attended T's christening.

[marybrewster]

3 years after Dreamgirl; it seemed like Diana had it with the required sensationalism and media interviews Mary had to do. Little did she know what was coming with RTL.

Does anyone think she was justified in declining to receive Mary?

Kind of like the Queen Mother refused to receive the Duke of Windsor - “after what he’d done”

If there's a private party that you're clearly not invited to, public space or not, it takes some big ones.

[reese]

Is Turkessa REALLY Diana's Goddaughter? Or is it like one of those Whitney Houston things where everyone and their sister is Nippy's Gmama.

I mean, if Diana didn't attend Mary's wedding, there's little chance she attended T's christening.

In her second book, Mary wrote that Diana accepted Mary's invitation to be Turkessa's godmother and the girl was baptized in 1979.

In her 1987 US interview, Diana also mentioned being Turkessa's godmother.

[marybrewster]

In her second book, Mary wrote that Diana accepted Mary's invitation to be Turkessa's godmother and the girl was baptized in 1979.

In her 1987 US interview, Diana also mentioned being Turkessa's godmother.

I did not know that! Thank you!

[captainjames]

What was always interesting to me was there were some major stars from Motown that wanted nothing to do with Motown 25 including Diana, Marvin and Michael to name a few. I could never figure out if it was because of Suzanne De Passe or Berry Gordy. To me that was the beginning of a disaster.

[Ollie9]

If there's a private party that you're clearly not invited to, public space or not, it takes some big ones.

Bottom line mb lol.... It did rather smack of desperation.

[jim aka jtigre99]

We can certainly speculate all we want. It is obvious that they are still somewhat cordial with each other despite what the media perpetuates. There are probably many private things that they need to communicate with each other and at ages 76 I do not see that happening. For Motown 25, Diana was dealing with not only reuniting with the Supremes but also being on RCA and celebrating Motown and Berry Gordy after she had left them. Mary was dealing with celebrating Motown after they had dropped her 3 years earlier and reuniting with Diana after some hot and cold friendship moments. For RTL, the rumors were out there for over a year and Diana waited and just called Mary so that the business would start rather than meeting together to discuss the tour and ideas. Besides the monetary offer being somewhat degrading so was the treatment, which Diana later said in an interview was all that Mary had to do was show up. So on one side we had someone acting too grand to even communicate properly and on the other side someone who was hurt yet did not communicate properly on what they really wanted and how they felt except through the media. I am just happy they are both looking so beautiful, can sing and entertain so well at 76. I'll leave it at that even though the dream of them reuniting is not a dream that will come true.

[jobeterob]

In a way, you summarize the real personal issue some at Motown had with Diana - here she was, Diane from the Projects, and she became so grand and successful - and many felt forgotten - by her, Motown, the media. And they all been together in those buildings and on the buses, with very basic beginnings

[khansperac]

I always stay out of these RTL discussions. But Diana did try to extend the olive branch by calling Mary. Mary was the one with the funky attitude. Diana should have ended everything right then and there, after that call. I do agree that discussions should have happened first, then the business discussions should have followed. I also think too much emphasis is put on Diana’s comment about Mary just having to show up. She was talking about financial responsibilities.

[floyjoy678]

I do wonder if Mary and Diana's beef would have been settled by now had Flo lived considering she saw Diana in a better light and reached out to her before she passed.

[kpitt1204]

It’s my understanding that Diana Ross had the same type of personality in the days before the hits. I got this from someone who grew up with her. She always thought highly of herself and carried herself that way, and did it well enough for folks to still see her that way.

[jobeterob]

It’s my understanding that Diana Ross had the same type of personality in the days before the hits. I got this from someone who grew up with her. She always thought highly of herself and carried herself that way, and did it well enough for folks to still see her that way.

Maxine Powell said the same thing.

[TheMotownManiac]

3 years after Dreamgirl; it seemed like Diana had it with the required sensationalism and media interviews Mary had to do. Little did she know what was coming with RTL.

Does anyone think she was justified in declining to receive Mary?

Kind of like the Queen Mother refused to receive the Duke of Windsor - “after what he’d done”

of course she was justified, Mary was only pushing the point to stir up trouble. She knew Diana didn’t want anything to do with her and stubbornly and childishly parked her self outside of the dressing room trying to force a confrontation like she did at Motown 25. Diana was not having it. Then Mary goes to the party uninvited and acts like She’s somehow been hurt. I lost every ounce of respect for her I had when she did that that night and was crying on national television pretending not to know why Diana was refusing to see her. That’s as phony as phony can be. It’s just so fake of her to pretend that she has no idea what Diana‘s problem is with her. She’s like Donald Trump insisting on election fraud. Mary will just say anything.

And let’s face it, if Mary really was hurt that their friendship was over in the 70s and 80s, she should seek psychological help. They were work friends for 10 years and then went their separate ways it’s quite normal to move on. Mary used her for attention whenever she could.
if Mary is being truthful and that she misses Diana‘s friendship so much, it reminds me of the movie Chuck and Buck who haven’t seen each other in 10 years and one is obsessed with the other and can’t give up the fact that their lives have moved on. I highly recommend it although it is absolutely the most uncomfortable nerve-racking embarrassing film to watch, but there’s a brilliant comic performance in it. Personally I don’t think Mary really does feel that way because I know for a fact that she had nothing good to say about Diana from the day Cindy joined the group, I think she just wants closeness now so that maybe they could do some sort of reunion and get some money out of it. Or at least she would get some Press.

[PeaceNHarmony]

Wilson had a chance to grandstand, and grandstand she did. Red dress and all. Do your research. Mike drop.

[sup_fan]

in Randy's book, he writes about Mary visiting Diana backstage and discussing writing her book. Diana asks what is the book about and Mary states "well no one wants to read about me. It's about us - The Supremes"

that sort of sums things up

By herself, Mary hasn't been able to really lock onto something that seems to really work other than being a "former Supreme." it seems to me that Mary defined happiness and success as being a top pop act and singer, living the glam life, jet setting about. Unfortunately her music career from the mid 70s on really did provide for that. Will certainly give her credit for trying and trying again.

I've said many times before that other genres or areas might have been more to her calling. and while they may not have been big time and big money pop successes, it would have been just a different kind of success.

But instead she's worked using the Sup legend and capitalizing on bits of sensationalism here and there along the way.

the Sups petered out in June 77 and then in fall 77 hit the news with her lawsuits

in 79 she had hoped to spark interest with her solo debut

81 she tried grabbing spotlight around the show Dreamgirls

83 was motown 25

86 was her book release

89 was the fiasco with Diana and the Working Overtime stunt

and on and on it goes

[Bluebrock]

of course she was justified, Mary was only pushing the point to stir up trouble. She knew Diana didn’t want anything to do with her and stubbornly and childishly parked her self outside of the dressing room trying to force a confrontation like she did at Motown 25. Diana was not having it. Then Mary goes to the party uninvited and acts like She’s somehow been hurt. I lost every ounce of respect for her I had when she did that that night and was crying on national television pretending not to know why Diana was refusing to see her. That’s as phony as phony can be. It’s just so fake of her to pretend that she has no idea what Diana‘s problem is with her. She’s like Donald Trump insisting on election fraud. Mary will just say anything.

And let’s face it, if Mary really was hurt that their friendship was over in the 70s and 80s, she should seek psychological help. They were work friends for 10 years and then went their separate ways it’s quite normal to move on. Mary used her for attention whenever she could.
if Mary is being truthful and that she misses Diana‘s friendship so much, it reminds me of the movie Chuck and Buck who haven’t seen each other in 10 years and one is obsessed with the other and can’t give up the fact that their lives have moved on. I highly recommend it although it is absolutely the most uncomfortable nerve-racking embarrassing film to watch, but there’s a brilliant comic performance in it. Personally I don’t think Mary really does feel that way because I know for a fact that she had nothing good to say about Diana from the day Cindy joined the group, I think she just wants closeness now so that maybe they could do some sort of reunion and get some money out of it. Or at least she would get some Press.
A round of applause from me for this post. Hopefully we can finally put this to bed and all move on.

[Bluebrock]

in Randy's book, he writes about Mary visiting Diana backstage and discussing writing her book. Diana asks what is the book about and Mary states "well no one wants to read about me. It's about us - The Supremes"

that sort of sums things up

By herself, Mary hasn't been able to really lock onto something that seems to really work other than being a "former Supreme." it seems to me that Mary defined happiness and success as being a top pop act and singer, living the glam life, jet setting about. Unfortunately her music career from the mid 70s on really did provide for that. Will certainly give her credit for trying and trying again.

I've said many times before that other genres or areas might have been more to her calling. and while they may not have been big time and big money pop successes, it would have been just a different kind of success.

But instead she's worked using the Sup legend and capitalizing on bits of sensationalism here and there along the way.

the Sups petered out in June 77 and then in fall 77 hit the news with her lawsuits

in 79 she had hoped to spark interest with her solo debut

81 she tried grabbing spotlight around the show Dreamgirls

83 was motown 25

86 was her book release

89 was the fiasco with Diana and the Working Overtime stunt

and on and on it goes
Another honest post. My hands are going to be sore with all the applause i am dishing out today!

[RanRan79]

A lot to comment on in this thread. I'll try to condense it to a few things that standout.

Gotta agree with Sup on Mary and Cindy's rumored response to the rumored scenario regarding the medley rehearsal. These women were 40 and 40+ still allowing Diana to control things like they were all still 20 something. Couldn't have been me.

Disagree with the idea that Mary was somehow to blame for the embarrassing Motown 25 reunion. That was all on Diana. First of all, again, Mary was 40 years old. If she wanted to come on stage wearing red instead of whatever was agreed upon, so what? Let's not pretend like it would've been gasps if Diana had suddenly changed her wardrobe at the last minute. No one at that reunion, including Diana, should've felt any type of way about Mary wearing red. Diana was probably pissed that she didn't think of it.

If things played out the way they were rumored to, Diana turning around and shoving Mary for any reason other than Mary shoving her first was completely unacceptable. That this is also rumored to be a response to the fact that Mary and Cindy refused to let Diana stand ahead of them like it's 1969 again makes it even more disgusting. That was on Diana, not Mary. And while I think it unprofessional for Mary to call Gordy to the stage when she knew it was not her place to do so, it was 10 times worst for Diana to touch Mary's body in any way, pushing her mic down and yelling at her. That was far more unprofessional than what Mary did, when the correct response to such an out of order occurrence would've been to say something like "Yes, ladies and gentlemen, Mr. Berry Gordy". The Supremes reunion was fucked up because of Diana Ross, not Mary Wilson.

[RanRan79]

Mary B brings up a good point about people growing apart. I made a similar point in the forum once before, that there was a genuine friendship between Diana and Mary as teenagers, and during their early 20s, like millions of other youngsters have had since time began. But where college or young adult experiences might have otherwise ended these friendships, with Diana and Mary, they were bonded together via the Supremes, working together, basically living together. Now one could also make the argument that at some point they became more than friends, that it was family. Sometimes you can't stand your family. The flaws become too much or whatever the case may be, but it's still family. There's that soft spot in your heart for this person and a need to remain connected. Apparently up until Mary's book, this wasn't a relationship where only Mary made overtures to Diana. There were times when Diana sought Mary out also. So obviously there was a need to stay connected on Diana's part. I think if Mary hadn't written her book, or at least had kept some of the Diana related stuff to herself, the two would've continued keeping in touch because they had a need to do so.

While I understand some of the idea behind the "co-workers" thing, the truth is that Diana and Mary and even Florence were not just co-workers no matter how many times some want to reduce the relationship to that. Specifically as it relates to Diana, none of us- I'm sure- would ever think to set up trust funds for a co worker's children, a co-worker we haven't worked with in almost ten years. How about paying for the surgery for a co worker's kid? Ever loaned a down payment to an ex co worker you haven't worked with in a decade? No? Didn't think so. Yes, the original Supremes worked together and were, by definition, co-workers. But that was not the extent of their relationship and attempting to frame it as "co-workers" is disingenuous. Berry Gordy was Diana's boss by definition, but........

[RanRan79]

As for Mary trying to see Diana after the book, I personally can't blame Diana for refusing Mary to be in my space. I've never viewed Dreamgirl as this complete hatchet job on Diana, but there were definitely some things in that book that wasn't Mary's place to tell. If I were Diana I would've reacted the same way. I would not have considered Mary a friend of mine at that point. I might wish her well, but there's nothing left for us after that. Now, where Diana and I differ, I couldn't refuse Turkessa. Even though I recognize Turkessa was a tool in Mary getting to see Diana, Turkessa was a child who had absolutely nothing to do with whatever was going on between Mary and Diana. I would've sent a message that Turkessa and only Turkessa was free to come back and see me if she wanted. If Mary wasn't okay with that, it would be her right as Turkessa's mother to refuse the offer and take her child home. But Mary would not have been allowed back under any circumstances at that point.

[sup_fan]

A lot to comment on in this thread. I'll try to condense it to a few things that standout.

Gotta agree with Sup on Mary and Cindy's rumored response to the rumored scenario regarding the medley rehearsal. These women were 40 and 40+ still allowing Diana to control things like they were all still 20 something. Couldn't have been me.

Disagree with the idea that Mary was somehow to blame for the embarrassing Motown 25 reunion. That was all on Diana. First of all, again, Mary was 40 years old. If she wanted to come on stage wearing red instead of whatever was agreed upon, so what? Let's not pretend like it would've been gasps if Diana had suddenly changed her wardrobe at the last minute. No one at that reunion, including Diana, should've felt any type of way about Mary wearing red. Diana was probably pissed that she didn't think of it.

If things played out the way they were rumored to, Diana turning around and shoving Mary for any reason other than Mary shoving her first was completely unacceptable. That this is also rumored to be a response to the fact that Mary and Cindy refused to let Diana stand ahead of them like it's 1969 again makes it even more disgusting. That was on Diana, not Mary. And while I think it unprofessional for Mary to call Gordy to the stage when she knew it was not her place to do so, it was 10 times worst for Diana to touch Mary's body in any way, pushing her mic down and yelling at her. That was far more unprofessional than what Mary did, when the correct response to such an out of order occurrence would've been to say something like "Yes, ladies and gentlemen, Mr. Berry Gordy". The Supremes reunion was fucked up because of Diana Ross, not Mary Wilson.

i think the blame with the actual reunion themselves falls on both. Throughout the evening, Mary had questionable professional behavior. For instance, there was the speech she had been selected to present. Now i've not read or heard what the original speech included and only know of her actual speech based on her book, about how she saluted Flo and others. While the theme and topic is admirable, to simply change the material 100% during the performance is not acceptable. If she felt so strongly that the words given to her were inappropriate, she simply should have said she couldn't do the segment and let someone else. from a production management perspective, this was grossly unprofessional of her.

during the reunion itself, there's the "shove." Mary has always depicted it as a massive physical assault. in Randy's most recent book, it was more of a "move back" action by Diana. Agree that either is not acceptable and Diana broke that cardinal rule. for M and C to "plot" backstage to do their own choreography is not acceptable either though. Why didn't they simply state during their brief rehearsal "no we aren't going to stand in the back. let's sing together in a row" Again to wait and do this in the middle of the performance is unacceptable. cameras and camera angles were planned based on the marks given to the performers.

Mary's usurping the lead vocals on Someday are also not acceptable.

Then Diana's grabbing Mary's arm when Mary said "berry come on down" is also unacceptable.

Both women handling the situation very poorly

[RanRan79]

Mary's speech had nothing to do with the Supremes, but I'll concede that in the overall evening, yes, changing her speech without letting TPTB know was very unprofessional.

Regarding camera angles, again, that would be something that folks behind the scenes would care about, not us watching at home or in the actual audience that night, and certainly was not something for Diana to even react to. She should have thought it a good idea to stand together, unless her ego was screaming "Diana in front! Diana always in front!":p

Mary didn't usurp the lead to "Someday", she saved it. Mary says Diana stopped singing. I suspect Diana forgot the words to a song she apparently hadn't sung since 1970 and had a minute's worth of a rehearsal an hour or so before. Mary did what she was supposed to do. If you watch the performance, there's a tell tale sign that this is most likely what happened. In the video below, for reference, Mary is singing the lead and then at about 5:36 Diana joins her in the "whoo" part and then at 5:38 Mary gestures to Diana as if to say "Okay, you got it" but as she's doing that, Diana announces Smokey Robinson and so Mary keeps going. To me that's not unprofessional, that's the show must go on no matter what. What were they supposed to do, just stand there until Diana remembered the words?

So for me, when it comes to the actual reunion of the Supremes, Diana is the reason it became a fiasco. Mary however did have some other unprofessional moments that night, as did Diana, like appearing during someone else's performance unexpectedly. I imagine those concerned with the camera angles during Adam Ant's performance would've really lost their minds. Lol


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pDh41GFt6s

[jobeterob]

Overall, a disappointing evening for the Supremes and Ross fans; I can still remember being stunned that the "reunion" was over and while everyone else joining them was great, there wasn't really any reunion at all.

Mary Wilson had nothing much to lose and she was sick of playing 8th fiddle and probably more pissed when no one knew who she was and she had to make another entrance out of the bushes.

So she acted up.

I don't know what exactly Diana did. But she was the Queen of the House and she should have put "hands up" even higher like nothing ever happened.

[sup_fan]

Mary's speech had nothing to do with the Supremes, but I'll concede that in the overall evening, yes, changing her speech without letting TPTB know was very unprofessional.

Regarding camera angles, again, that would be something that folks behind the scenes would care about, not us watching at home or in the actual audience that night, and certainly was not something for Diana to even react to. She should have thought it a good idea to stand together, unless her ego was screaming "Diana in front! Diana always in front!":p

Mary didn't usurp the lead to "Someday", she saved it. Mary says Diana stopped singing. I suspect Diana forgot the words to a song she apparently hadn't sung since 1970 and had a minute's worth of a rehearsal an hour or so before. Mary did what she was supposed to do. If you watch the performance, there's a tell tale sign that this is most likely what happened. In the video below, for reference, Mary is singing the lead and then at about 5:36 Diana joins her in the "whoo" part and then at 5:38 Mary gestures to Diana as if to say "Okay, you got it" but as she's doing that, Diana announces Smokey Robinson and so Mary keeps going. To me that's not unprofessional, that's the show must go on no matter what. What were they supposed to do, just stand there until Diana remembered the words?

So for me, when it comes to the actual reunion of the Supremes, Diana is the reason it became a fiasco. Mary however did have some other unprofessional moments that night, as did Diana, like appearing during someone else's performance unexpectedly. I imagine those concerned with the camera angles during Adam Ant's performance would've really lost their minds. Lol


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pDh41GFt6s

the audio we've heard is not in sync with the video we've seen. because of the altercation and problems on stage, they made edits and so there's a second or two where Diana is actually behind M and C and re-introduces them. the audio has Mary singing "bye, bye, bye, bye" part of the bg vocals but the Mary we see on the video isn't actually singing that. then they've cut to Smokey coming on stage

If the lead singer stumbles over the lyrics, it isn't the role of the bg vocals to simply take over the lead. the smoothest action would be to allow the lead to continue, ad lib and find a way to work themselves back into the song. in mary's book she says that she began singing lead because she thought Diana forgot the words and would come back in. Mary then specifically states she kept singing.

without seeing the entire unedited performance, we're not able to determine exactly what happened. we have Mary's book and Randy's two. IMO Mary approached the evening in a combative manner. She repeatedly didn't follow instructions on where to be and what to sing/say. from a production standpoint, that's wildly unprofessional. Also Diana made it blatantly obvious that she had no desire to be there and for her to approach this massive segment of her career with such indifference is also unacceptable. Her reaction to the happenings on stage were also extremely unprofessional.

so i still say both women share the blame

[captainjames]

The only thing I will say about this is why bring your disappointment or resentment or bitterness if any of those emotions fit to the stage. If what everyone is saying is true about Diana being the diva and she had not changed then you should know she wasn't going to change that night so everything you did in front of the camera was to piss off Diana or to get a reaction. Now, I have heard everything said from a shove to shoving Mary's mike down I stand on the fact that Diana should have never touched her but I have yet to see the footage [[THE WHOLE FOOTAGE).

I still say Diana wanted no part of Motown 25 or the reunion so she should have stayed away and especially since learning she was not feeling good. Also, in Biography Magazine years later Mary Wilson explains and talks about what went wrong with Motown 25 and it's more of a revealing story of what she did [[Mary). If you get an opportunity check it out. However, Diana moved on and Mary even after MOTOWN 25 kept saying a reunion is up to Diana. REALLY ?? Even I got it after that Mary.

[Ollie9]

Even though this topic had been much discussed over the years, i have enjoyed reading fans thoughts and opinions here in 2020. Above all, everyone has managed remain respectful to each other.
Regarding Diana, i think there is a side to her personality that Motown worked hard to keep hidden from the media. The incident at Wembley Arena in 82, Motown 25 then the dreaded letter and firing of a large chunk of her work force in 83 revealed another side to her persona.
I think it unfair to lay the failure of this reunion squarely on her shoulders, but she could so easily have taken the higher ground and handled the situation with a little more grace.
With age and experience comes wisdom, and i’m sure she is a totally different person today.

[RanRan79]

the audio we've heard is not in sync with the video we've seen. because of the altercation and problems on stage, they made edits and so there's a second or two where Diana is actually behind M and C and re-introduces them. the audio has Mary singing "bye, bye, bye, bye" part of the bg vocals but the Mary we see on the video isn't actually singing that. then they've cut to Smokey coming on stage

If the lead singer stumbles over the lyrics, it isn't the role of the bg vocals to simply take over the lead. the smoothest action would be to allow the lead to continue, ad lib and find a way to work themselves back into the song. in mary's book she says that she began singing lead because she thought Diana forgot the words and would come back in. Mary then specifically states she kept singing.

without seeing the entire unedited performance, we're not able to determine exactly what happened. we have Mary's book and Randy's two. IMO Mary approached the evening in a combative manner. She repeatedly didn't follow instructions on where to be and what to sing/say. from a production standpoint, that's wildly unprofessional. Also Diana made it blatantly obvious that she had no desire to be there and for her to approach this massive segment of her career with such indifference is also unacceptable. Her reaction to the happenings on stage were also extremely unprofessional.

so i still say both women share the blame

The audio is in sync when it's get to the part I point out above. Like I said, if you look at Mary, she gestures to Diana as if to say okay you got it. That doesn't strike me as someone who purposed it in her mind "I'm gonna steal the lead from Diana tonight".

As to whose to blame for the reunion fiasco, we'll just have to agree to disagree about that.

[Bluebrock]

Even though this topic had been much discussed over the years, i have enjoyed reading fans thoughts and opinions here in 2020. Above all, everyone has managed remain respectful to each other.
Regarding Diana, i think there is a side to her personality that Motown worked hard to keep hidden from the media. The incident at Wembley Arena in 82, Motown 25 then the dreaded letter and firing of a large chunk of her work force in 83 revealed another side to her persona.
I think it unfair to lay the failure of this reunion squarely on her shoulders, but she could so easily have taken the higher ground and handled the situation with a little more grace.
With age and experience comes wisdom, and i’m sure she is a totally different person today.

She most certainly is Ollie. She mellowed considerably during the time i worked with her. She remained a diva of course, and we would be disappointed if that diva feistyness ever deserted her! She is capable of acts of great kindness and generosity which often pass under the radar. She helped and supported me through some very dark times and i will never forget that.
As regards Mary she has been betrayed once too often by that woman. This of course does not excuse some of Diana's antics over the years, but Mary is guilty of some very underhand and downright unpleasant behaviour of her own. The "victim" role has been overplayed too many times and all this bullshit about another reunion being up to Diana is quite frankly yet another tawdry attempt at raising her own dwindling profile.
Both women have made big mistakes with their behaviour towards each other. They will never share a stage together again, and that will have a far bigger financial impact upon Mary than it will Diana.

[RanRan79]

The only thing I will say about this is why bring your disappointment or resentment or bitterness if any of those emotions fit to the stage. If what everyone is saying is true about Diana being the diva and she had not changed then you should know she wasn't going to change that night so everything you did in front of the camera was to piss off Diana or to get a reaction. Now, I have heard everything said from a shove to shoving Mary's mike down I stand on the fact that Diana should have never touched her but I have yet to see the footage [[THE WHOLE FOOTAGE).

I still say Diana wanted no part of Motown 25 or the reunion so she should have stayed away and especially since learning she was not feeling good. Also, in Biography Magazine years later Mary Wilson explains and talks about what went wrong with Motown 25 and it's more of a revealing story of what she did [[Mary). If you get an opportunity check it out. However, Diana moved on and Mary even after MOTOWN 25 kept saying a reunion is up to Diana. REALLY ?? Even I got it after that Mary.

I imagine Diana had mixed emotions about Motown 25 when you get down to it. I know she had to be talked into doing it, but that probably had more to do with her concerning herself with the negatives [[standing onstage as a Supreme again, being in the company of some select folks from the old days that she may not have been particularly fond of seeing again, and of course any awkward feelings that come with the fact that she and Gordy hadn't been in touch for quite some time and there were hard feelings about how things ended, business wise). But surely, if nothing else, Diana still loved Berry very much, as well as Motown, which was her home since she was 16. Honoring that had to have been tugging at her heart some kind of way, reunion or not.

As for Mary being resentful, uh, is this your first introduction to resentment and bitterness?:p It is not out of the ordinary for people with that kind of baggage to "act out". What good does your bitterness do if you only get to use it in the comfort of your home and not direct it at the person to whom you feel caused your resentful feelings? Motown 25 offered Mary a stage to "get back" at Diana for decades old bullshit, if that's indeed what Mary called herself doing.

But if Mary stepping forward when you step forward, or Mary calling down to Berry to come on down, causes Diana to lash out physically- even verbally- then as much as we want to point out Mary's mental issues [[resentment and bitterness are issues of the mind) we need to point out Diana's obviously mental issues as well, because that is not the reaction of someone who has it altogether upstairs. That 1983 show put on display that everyone was dealing with a new Mary. That same show seemed to provide everyone with a front row seat to a Diana- hours or minutes away from turning 40- who hadn't progressed from the teenager "pretending" to run down Gladys Horton some 20 years before because she said Diana's dress looked like a nightgown.

[RanRan79]

Even though this topic had been much discussed over the years, i have enjoyed reading fans thoughts and opinions here in 2020. Above all, everyone has managed remain respectful to each other.
Regarding Diana, i think there is a side to her personality that Motown worked hard to keep hidden from the media. The incident at Wembley Arena in 82, Motown 25 then the dreaded letter and firing of a large chunk of her work force in 83 revealed another side to her persona.
I think it unfair to lay the failure of this reunion squarely on her shoulders, but she could so easily have taken the higher ground and handled the situation with a little more grace.
With age and experience comes wisdom, and i’m sure she is a totally different person today.

Agreed. In fact, I'd go so far as to say she's grown wise enough to not even entertain another Mary reunion. But for all the convos that go on regarding Mary's behavior, and especially Florence's, I feel like Diana's well documented poor behavior is often given a pass because of how great she is as an entertainer. I think all the Supremes should be measured by the same stick or not at all.

[Ollie9]

Agreed. But for all the convos that go on regarding Mary's behavior, and especially Florence's, I feel like Diana's well documented poor behavior is often given a pass because of how great she is as an entertainer. I think all the Supremes should be measured by the same stick or not at all.

In that i am in total agreement. One of the good things about this forum is that there are still Ross/Supremes fans with at least one foot in the real world. ;)

[sup_fan]

Agreed. In fact, I'd go so far as to say she's grown wise enough to not even entertain another Mary reunion. But for all the convos that go on regarding Mary's behavior, and especially Florence's, I feel like Diana's well documented poor behavior is often given a pass because of how great she is as an entertainer. I think all the Supremes should be measured by the same stick or not at all.

All 3 of the Supremes certainly displayed divaness and poor behavior, simply because they're human. they were young and dealing with incredible stresses and pressures. and all three did good things and helped one another too.

The problem is Diana often is held accountable for every tiny slight she ever committed. Dreamgirl was clearly from Mary's POV and it comes across as quite biased. especially since she doesn't also highlight what Diana did well or how Diana tried to help flo or whatever.

This isn't to excuse or deny Diana's role in the Motown 25 debacle. as i've said all along, both M and D behaved poorly and Cindy was an accomplice with thing. Her just letting it ride along only added to things

[sup_fan]

The audio is in sync when it's get to the part I point out above. Like I said, if you look at Mary, she gestures to Diana as if to say okay you got it. That doesn't strike me as someone who purposed it in her mind "I'm gonna steal the lead from Diana tonight".

As to whose to blame for the reunion fiasco, we'll just have to agree to disagree about that.

i'm talking about at 5:27 in the video. Mary is visually singing an Ooooo but you're hearing Bye, Bye,Bye

[floyjoy678]

Cindy Birdsong, what a Saint. She had to put up with so much BS and drama from the first day she came into the group. And yet she always looked like she was having a blast, even at this dreadful "reunion".

[Jimi LaLumia]

this is still going on??? oh dear..lol

[jobeterob]

this is still going on??? oh dear..lol

But there's a difference...........it's all being done peaceably!

And also, what would we talk about!?

There's no tours, no appearances, no new tv appearances...............it's covidtime

[RanRan79]

One of the good things about this forum is that there are still Ross/Supremes fans with at least one foot in the real world. ;)

That's right! Now, once Covid releases it's grip on our lives, I'm positive Diana and Mary will reunite for something.:p

[RanRan79]

All 3 of the Supremes certainly displayed divaness and poor behavior, simply because they're human. they were young and dealing with incredible stresses and pressures. and all three did good things and helped one another too.

The problem is Diana often is held accountable for every tiny slight she ever committed. Dreamgirl was clearly from Mary's POV and it comes across as quite biased. especially since she doesn't also highlight what Diana did well or how Diana tried to help flo or whatever.

This isn't to excuse or deny Diana's role in the Motown 25 debacle. as i've said all along, both M and D behaved poorly and Cindy was an accomplice with thing. Her just letting it ride along only added to things

Not much to argue here, although I would point out that Mary does mention in her first book that both she and Diana tried to help Flo curtail her drinking and that Flo was touched by their efforts. She also took opportunities to point out Diana's greatness, from the Primettes on forward. Obviously Mary was going to tell the story from her POV, it was an autobiography, not an unbiased bio of the Supremes. In the parts of the book where Diana seem to cause some kind of trouble for the group, I can't fault Mary for writing about some of those things. My issue is that Mary wrote about things like Diana's love life, which aside from the relationship with Gordy which had an overwhelming effect on the group, none of that stuff was Mary's business to write about. That's the kind of thing that gets you banned from backstage visits.:cool:

It's hard to find fault for any of the things the individuals say about one another via their experiences with each other. I wasn't there- most of us weren't- so all we really can do is take their words for it, keeping in mind that every story, every allegation is from each person's POV. My criticism regarding the measuring stick of behavior was more about the fans. And to be fair, there are definitely times when both Mary and Florence's poor choices in behavior is excused under the guise of understanding how they may have felt with everything going on. The truth is exactly as you say: they were all human. Just imagine if there were a forum devoted to each of us where people dissected out lives and the choices we've made. I shudder to think what would be written about me.:D

[RanRan79]

i'm talking about at 5:27 in the video. Mary is visually singing an Ooooo but you're hearing Bye, Bye,Bye

Agreed, but I was referring to what happened at about 5:37.

[RanRan79]

Cindy Birdsong, what a Saint. She had to put up with so much BS and drama from the first day she came into the group. And yet she always looked like she was having a blast, even at this dreadful "reunion".

The expression on her face when she walks out onstage for the reunion, you can tell she really was glad to be there. She looks so excited. What a shame she was cheated out of the experience to do it again at RTL. Hopefully whatever steps Cindy took to start her autobiography can and will eventually pan out into a biography. She's not the most famous person in the music biz, but her story seems like it would be such a great read. Just the fact that she sang in a music group with two of the biggest stars in the world in Patti Labelle and Diana Ross is enough to interest me.

[RanRan79]

But there's a difference...........it's all being done peaceably!

And also, what would we talk about!?

There's no tours, no appearances, no new tv appearances...............it's covidtime

Agreed. All we do is regurgitate stuff in this forum. The Supremes have been over since 1977. They rarely offer us anything truly new to discuss. And with even the disagreements being respectful, what's the big deal if we rehash stuff? Gee whiz.

[captainjames]

I think someone on here said earlier that none of us were there so none of us know exactly what went down between them. It's a shame Flo is not around to give the other side of the story. Diana was somewhat cordial after Diana left the Supremes I believe. I can even remember seeing pics and stories of Diana attending solo performances of Mary Wilson and Cindy Birdsong after the Supremes final exit. Now cordial may be a strong word for some but at least there were no hand pulling or shoving. I Remember Diana saying in her book that the behind the back had turned to in front of her face during her final year with the girls. I still say that most of this breakdown happen from the time of Mary's book to Motown 25 or at least that's what broke the camel's back. Also, I remember Diana being pissed over Mary writing about Flo being raped. I Still find it odd that through all this crap that Mary would want a reunion and say its all up to Diana. Also, as far as the stories from Tony Turner, none of those come close to reality.

[sup_fan]

Cindy Birdsong, what a Saint. She had to put up with so much BS and drama from the first day she came into the group. And yet she always looked like she was having a blast, even at this dreadful "reunion".

ok - i'm gonna stir the pot some more ;) lol

Cindy was an accomplice to this fracas. While she certainly didn't misbehave on stage she was willing to allow things to spin out of control backstage, at least to some degree.

1. she made no effort to counter Diana's dictate that they skip the medley and just do Someday.
2. according to Dreamgirl, mary spoke with Cindy on their own and said "tonight we're getting equal share. we're stepping forward with Diana. so watch me and move up with me." Now i'm not criticizing the girls for wanting fair presentment. but to do it behind the scenes like this is not a professional approach. again, why not simply say "when we sing Someday, let's just stand together in a row."

Did Cindy shove anyone - no. Did Cindy usurp the lead - no. Did Cindy not stand up for herself again - yes. Did Cindy secretly agree with Mary to change the choreography - yes.

[sup_fan]

I think someone on here said earlier that none of us were there so none of us know exactly what went down between them. It's a shame Flo is not around to give the other side of the story. Diana was somewhat cordial after Diana left the Supremes I believe. I can even remember seeing pics and stories of Diana attending solo performances of Mary Wilson and Cindy Birdsong after the Supremes final exit. Now cordial may be a strong word for some but at least there were no hand pulling or shoving. I Remember Diana saying in her book that the behind the back had turned to in front of her face during her final year with the girls. I still say that most of this breakdown happen from the time of Mary's book to Motown 25 or at least that's what broke the camel's back. Also, I remember Diana being pissed over Mary writing about Flo being raped. I Still find it odd that through all this crap that Mary would want a reunion and say its all up to Diana. Also, as far as the stories from Tony Turner, none of those come close to reality.

the girls started out a teenage friends and singing was a strong hobby and interest for them. As things progressed and they joined motown, Diana began to realize the love and thrill of performing. She began to set her sights on a goal of being a star. She also was willing to work very hard and sacrifice for it. I don't think she actively worked to hold F or M back - it was just that she was on a mission and if they weren't on that same mission or pushing forward for their goals, she couldn't stop and baby them. I do think she wanted good things for them and all but she couldn't forge their paths for them. they had to do it. they had to figure out what it was they wanted to do and what they could do. they frankly had to own their own destinies. as they tried to do things, i agree that she supported them and encouraged them. She was there for mary's debut, she did attend 70s Sups concerts, she was there for Cindy's performance in London.

Mary's public efforts tend to cast herself as a victim of motown's ruthlessness, diana's ambition, the public's indifference to anything but Diana, etc. It has been 50 years since Diana left the supremes. even if some or all of those are true, at a certain point it's mary's obligation to herself and her family to either make it work or move on. No one forced her into these decisions along her career and it's unfair to constantly blame mean old Motown or backstabbing Diana. So at a certain point, it's not surprising that Diana would be sick of the venom from Mary. especially since she was supportive of her.

[jim aka jtigre99]

I think someone on here said earlier that none of us were there so none of us know exactly what went down between them. It's a shame Flo is not around to give the other side of the story. Diana was somewhat cordial after Diana left the Supremes I believe. I can even remember seeing pics and stories of Diana attending solo performances of Mary Wilson and Cindy Birdsong after the Supremes final exit. Now cordial may be a strong word for some but at least there were no hand pulling or shoving. I Remember Diana saying in her book that the behind the back had turned to in front of her face during her final year with the girls. I still say that most of this breakdown happen from the time of Mary's book to Motown 25 or at least that's what broke the camel's back. Also, I remember Diana being pissed over Mary writing about Flo being raped. I Still find it odd that through all this crap that Mary would want a reunion and say its all up to Diana. Also, as far as the stories from Tony Turner, none of those come close to reality.
Perhaps, Diana might have felt it was not Mary's place to disclose about Florence being raped but it certainly explained things and humanized them. The concensus was that Diana was an egomaniac who made Florence's life with the Supremes a living hell and that her push for the spotlight made Florence drink to excess. As Mary's book told the story,Florence had been raped and this caused her to be distrustful of all people. While, dealing with the pain of that rape and being wary as she saw how the Supremes' story was playing out she drank to contend with that pain. Both Diana and Mary curtailed their drinking and Florence was touched to see that caring. Diana was shown to be a friend but completely career driven, her actions were written as to show it was not malice but part of her driven personality. I ended up liking all of them much more after reading Dreamgirl, Diana who was career driven and focused on her goals but not mean or vindictive towards her friends, Florence who was suffering pain from her rape and felt wary towards everyone when she saw that she was soon relegated to only background singing and Mary who was caught in the middle trying to help her friend Flo but being young and inexperienced in how to exactly do it and also standing with Diana as she moved to the forefront which disassembled Mary's thoughts on it being a group.Truly, Mary did not write in ways to disparage her former colleagues and friends. Diana may not have liked Mary telling information as her own book Secrets of a Sparrow contained no real information and was "inspirational" without telling details. Perhaps, it may not have been Mary's "place" to reveal things but she wrote about the rape and now that puts both Florence in a better light and Diana, as well.

[jim aka jtigre99]

The audio is in sync when it's get to the part I point out above. Like I said, if you look at Mary, she gestures to Diana as if to say okay you got it. That doesn't strike me as someone who purposed it in her mind "I'm gonna steal the lead from Diana tonight".

As to whose to blame for the reunion fiasco, we'll just have to agree to disagree about that.
I had always wondered if I was the only one who noticed Mary gesturing to Diana as if to say are you ready to resume the lead? I spotted that and I never see that acknowledged.

[BobbyC]

Jim aka--thank you. i saw Dreamgirl the same way. I thought Diana came off as almost superhumanly driven, a little selfish--but I don't recall reading anything where she went out of her way to be nasty to anybody, especially not Florence. I think F's defeatist personality was like dealing with a space alien to a person with DR's crazy drive and determination. DR was not going to let anybody destroy what she was working towards. There is a very telling story in Tarrorborelli's last DR book, where FB didn't show up for a gig, which she had done before, and DR just collapsed on the floor, sobbing "Why is she doing this to us?" DR just couldn't fathom that kind of self-sabotage and it was hurting all of them. DR worked herself to the point of exhaustion, lost a dangerous amount of weight in doing so, and obviously was feeling the weight of the world on her tiny shoulders and here was Florence just not showing up. That was not going to work. Cindy once said that when FB was fired, Berry knew the group was really going to hit the big time and there was no time to deal with the problems FB was presenting.That's just life even in show business. If I didn't bother coming into work, or showing up drunk, I'd get fired and nobody would be running around saying that someone else sabotaged me.

[sup_fan]

Agreed, but I was referring to what happened at about 5:37.

gotcha - and i had never noticed her motioning before. to be honest, i can't really say one way or the other. i don't want to just assume that she WOULDN'T toss the lead back over to diana. and i don't know at what point she usurped the lead. if mary was only singing a line or so while Diana was out, ok then that makes sense to "toss" it back. But if she had been singing for a couple minutes i'm not sure why she would. again, don't know and can't tell.

[reese]

gotcha - and i had never noticed her motioning before. to be honest, i can't really say one way or the other. i don't want to just assume that she WOULDN'T toss the lead back over to diana. and i don't know at what point she usurped the lead. if mary was only singing a line or so while Diana was out, ok then that makes sense to "toss" it back. But if she had been singing for a couple minutes i'm not sure why she would. again, don't know and can't tell.

Looking at the tape, it seems as if Diana stops singing after the line "...I made a big mistake, honey. I said goodbye."

At that point is where I believe Diana may have forgotten the words and Mary jumped in. The other lines in the bridge "Ever since that day, all I want to do is cry," aren't heard at all and the next thing we see is DMC standing side by side, Diana introducing them, and Mary starting the final verse "I long for you, every night..."

[RanRan79]

I think someone on here said earlier that none of us were there so none of us know exactly what went down between them. It's a shame Flo is not around to give the other side of the story. Diana was somewhat cordial after Diana left the Supremes I believe. I can even remember seeing pics and stories of Diana attending solo performances of Mary Wilson and Cindy Birdsong after the Supremes final exit. Now cordial may be a strong word for some but at least there were no hand pulling or shoving. I Remember Diana saying in her book that the behind the back had turned to in front of her face during her final year with the girls. I still say that most of this breakdown happen from the time of Mary's book to Motown 25 or at least that's what broke the camel's back. Also, I remember Diana being pissed over Mary writing about Flo being raped. I Still find it odd that through all this crap that Mary would want a reunion and say its all up to Diana. Also, as far as the stories from Tony Turner, none of those come close to reality.

Yeah, the book appears to be the point where the relationship became "irreparable". Even after Motown 25, and the Motown Apollo event, Diana and Mary got together for dinner with Mr. Ross. For either of them to move past the events of the night of the reunion appears to be indicative of their relationship for a long time. They each do things that piss the other off, but neither ever really addresses it and instead they keep their distance for awhile until something inside of them feels the need to connect, and then they do. That is until the book. At that point I think Diana felt like Mary had crossed a line that couldn't be undone, and I don't blame her.

I still feel very strongly that in order for any description of RTL to have taken place as a reunion between these two women, they needed to have a serious heart to heart. Had Diana called Mary up and said she has a suite at the X hotel for the two of them to have a very private conversation, Mary would've been at the suite's door before Diana could finish her statement. Once together, they could've hashed out any and everything that was bothering them: Diana's attention hogging, Mary's book, Diana's "shoving", Mary's inaccuracies, etc. This speaks to a larger issue in society from my POV anyway. So much bitterness and animosity and dismissiveness are allowed to fester because people keep things bottled up. They write books or they distance themselves instead of letting it out and freeing themselves. No doubt in my mind that if Diana and Mary had come together for a private cathartic conversation, RTL may have gone much better. There was no room for RTL to succeed when the two principal players distrusted one another so much, and a lot of that distrust stemmed from their emotional hurting of one another.

The mention of Tony Turner in your post Captain is rather random, but to your point, I think it's been well established in the forum that nothing Tall Tales Turner says can be believed.

[RanRan79]

2. according to Dreamgirl, mary spoke with Cindy on their own and said "tonight we're getting equal share. we're stepping forward with Diana. so watch me and move up with me." Now i'm not criticizing the girls for wanting fair presentment. but to do it behind the scenes like this is not a professional approach. again, why not simply say "when we sing Someday, let's just stand together in a row."

Not until now has it dawned on me Sup that you keep charging that there was a change in choreography. What choreography? There was none. Mary claims that she told Cindy before hand to follow her every move. She points out there had been no rehearsal and "anything could happen". So she told Cindy if Diana steps forward, she and Cindy are to do the same. If you think about it, for a number like this, "Someday We'll Be Together", there's nothing for them to do but stand together and sing. I'd actually bet a couple dollars that there was no direction before the reunion that said "At this point, Diana stands in front of Mary and Cindy". To what purpose?

Let's be real, Diana moved forward because she wanted to, not because she had been instructed to. And if Diana was free to move as she pleased, why wouldn't Mary and Cindy be free to do the same? This was not the Hollywood Palace 1969. It was a reunion of 40 year old women. Diana was still the lead singer, but these were not the old Supremes days and I find it doubtful that anybody in production told them this is how it was to be, Diana in front, them in back. Makes no sense.

[sup_fan]

Not until now has it dawned on me Sup that you keep charging that there was a change in choreography. What choreography? There was none. Mary claims that she told Cindy before hand to follow her every move. She points out there had been no rehearsal and "anything could happen". So she told Cindy if Diana steps forward, she and Cindy are to do the same. If you think about it, for a number like this, "Someday We'll Be Together", there's nothing for them to do but stand together and sing. I'd actually bet a couple dollars that there was no direction before the reunion that said "At this point, Diana stands in front of Mary and Cindy". To what purpose?

Let's be real, Diana moved forward because she wanted to, not because she had been instructed to. And if Diana was free to move as she pleased, why wouldn't Mary and Cindy be free to do the same? This was not the Hollywood Palace 1969. It was a reunion of 40 year old women. Diana was still the lead singer, but these were not the old Supremes days and I find it doubtful that anybody in production told them this is how it was to be, Diana in front, them in back. Makes no sense.

no i agree there wasn't intricate choreography or a dance routine. even with a rehearsal they wouldn't have done anything complex. i'm just using the term as a general description of whatever they would do on stage.

while they wouldn't have had a huge rehearsal, they certainly would have had at least some basic directions of you'll stand here and you'll stand over here. the taping was a multicamera format so they would have been assigned marks to stand at so that the camera angles would work. that's part of my point of the unprofessional nature of the actions. when an actor, singer or performer disregards where they're supposed to be on stage, it causes major problems for the production staff. no viewer wants to just look at an empty stage. and if the performers are all over the place, then the cameras will struggle with capturing the right angles. typically there'll be one or two for a character or performer that is going to move and it'll be trained on them and move/follow them

For Mary to decide backstage that she wasn't going to stick to her mark and to rope Cindy into that in unprofessional.

Typically lead singers are not stationary. that's commonplace in music acts and is hardly unique to diana. or they'll be positioned to the side of the group like in the Temps/Tops battle of the bands. So Diana stepping forward to a typical spot isn't something unusual or different really. lead singers will "work the audience" more and as they're walking around they'll do things on the stage. and part of what we've complained about during the MSS years is that it was too much of a free-for-all situation.

I don't discredit Mary and Cindy with wanting to have an appropriate and shared presence on the stage. there's nothing wrong with that idea. it just should have been stated directly. when they were told their marks, they should have said "oh no - not tonight. i'l be standing here instead"